NationStates Jolt Archive

I just saw an excellent German film today called Downfall. This film shows the last days of the Reich in Berlin, through the eyes of Hitler's secretary. Hitler (excellently played by Bruno Ganz) is shown at his most charming and at his most despotic. Between fits of rage and moving imaginary army units around, he is gently caring towards his secretary, the Goebbels children, his dog and his wife, Eva Braun. This enclosed bunker life is compared brutally with the realities of warzone Berlin where Germans are hung for trying to escape, 12 year old members of the Volksstrum shoot themselves and medical aid is almost non-existent.

However the film has met with some criticism in the British press for humanising Hitler too much. They say showing his charming, caring side draws too much attention away from the evils he committed.

So what do you think? Do you think that the Western media should portray Hitler as a cold unthinking monster or a human with many facets to his personality?

i'm sure that Hitler, like all humans, had his good points and bad points. i see nothing wrong with showing the sum of his character, including the good along with the bad, because that is a more honest and realistic portrayal. we gain nothing from pretending that all evil in the world is caused by pure evil people; a person with many good qualities may do horrible things, and it's silly to try to ignore that fact.

Sounds like a very interesting film.

Did you get it on DVD?


As for humanising hitler, I don't think it's a bad thing. If you dehumanise a person as terrible as he is, people might start to think that he was a thing of pure evil, so divorced from humanity that a person like him could never come to power again.

Humanising hitler - that is, showing him as he was, as opposed to how others would have us remember him will teach people that evil can come in human form. That the worst evil comes not disfigured and openly horrible, but from a "reasonable" face, from another human being, that to all outwards appearance could be the same as any guy you'd meet on the street.

Ok that's all really fucking garbled, but you probably see what I'm getting at :p

We must see what the German people saw, what many British saw too, since many agreed with him right until the war and then some.

Evil people don't have horns and a tail. Some may be quite charming.

I don't know. The downsides to doing so are obvious, since the last thing any producer (hopefully) would want is to attempt to justify or defend Hitler and obscure the crimes he commited. Still, it is important to provide all sides of the man, so I feel that it is important to show his "human" side regardless of accuracy. He isn't one-dimensional, and shouldn't be shown as such regardless of what he did.

In my opinion, showing his actions towards his family and friends and his fondness for children makes him more chilling, solely because it contrasts with his despicable crimes.

Sounds like a very interesting film.

Did you get it on DVD?


As for humanising hitler, I don't think it's a bad thing. If you dehumanise a person as terrible as he is, people might start to think that he was a thing of pure evil, so divorced from humanity that a person like him could never come to power again.

Humanising hitler - that is, showing him as he was, as opposed to how others would have us remember him will teach people that evil can come in human form. That the worst evil comes not disfigured and openly horrible, but from a "reasonable" face, from another human being, that to all outwards appearance could be the same as any guy you'd meet on the street.

Ok that's all really fucking garbled, but you probably see what I'm getting at :p

No, its one at British cinemas now, its only just been released but alas few cinemas are showing it as it is a foreign film - it is done in German with subtitles but in my opnion only the German langauge can give real meaning to Hitler's screaming rages. It is the best film I have seen since Return of the King - it really saddens me that more cinemas have chosen to show mass produced Hollwood dross than this truly excellent film. I live in Birmingham (the second biggest city in England) and only one cinema was showing it! One! Its a disgrace.

In my opinion, showing his actions towards his family and friends and his fondness for children makes him more chilling, solely because it contrasts with his despicable crimes.
Yes, the film does a very good job at that. No matter how kind to his close ones he is, you still realize that this one is nuts.

I saw last week, by the way.

Eh? The press has it the wrong way around.

It's important to remember that all these assholes, Hitler, Stalin, Amin ect. could be, and often were, extremely charming and personable, and that is in part how they rose to power.

If the we insist upon portraying every genocidal maniac with the personality of Darth Vader, we loose a large part of what the twentieth century has taught us: Namely that often the most dangerous and evil leaders are seemingly the most promising and human - at least at first.

Look at Idi Amin: He was able to conduct such a brutual regime for so long because - in part* - the whole world was decieved by his media persona (almost uniformly the press that covered him uniformly found him charming and witty, and no-one could accept that anyone with such an engaging relaxed manner could also be a brutal homocidal maniac.)

If anything, the press should worry less about how hitler is portrayed in movies, and more about getting the facts right today. I am sure is I scoured the newspapers I could find instances of them being decieved by the human sides of dictators at this very moment.

*Of course, the british government's refusal to listen to it's own military about Amin before, and after independence, didn't help either.

I'm going to butcher this, but a friend was talking the other day about the notion that 'evil is not a noun.' The jist is that if we start thinking of evil as something that is-that is evil-then we remove the possibility that we are capable of it, to wit-"I did x, but I'm not evil..." which tacitly removes the responsibility. The idea is that we have to think of evil as something that is done, not something that is. In this respect showing Hitler as someone who had caring moments-was decent and kind to those he knew we refocus the evil on what he did and not who he was-and (as has been pointed out) something that everyone is capable of (in a way).

Trailer (http://www.apple.com/trailers/newmarket/downfall-subtitled.html), for those that are interested.

Yes, the film does a very good job at that. No matter how kind to his close ones he is, you still realize that this one is nuts.

I think that is what makes people like Hitler so frightening. Take John Wayne Gacy, for example. He was a loved member of the community, and was a dedicated volunteer. However, they would find out that he had brutally murdered a considerable number of people and buried them in a crawlspace under his house. It's that comparison between good and great evil that really shows how terrible these people are, and that is why I think Hitler should be portrayed as a human, simply because it will show his cruelty far better than a one-dimensional villain ever would.

I don't know. The downsides to doing so are obvious, since the last thing any producer (hopefully) would want is to attempt to justify or defend Hitler and obscure the crimes he commited. Still, it is important to provide all sides of the man, so I feel that it is important to show his "human" side regardless of accuracy. He isn't one-dimensional, and shouldn't be shown as such regardless of what he did.

In my opinion, showing his actions towards his family and friends and his fondness for children makes him more chilling, solely because it contrasts with his despicable crimes.
Dammit, I'm agreeing with someone again.
Showing Hitler as a human being is a good thing-he was, and if you forget that, you're opening yourself to someone just like him. The worst evils are Charming, attractive, I mean, remember, Ted Bundy wasn't some three-eyed ghoul stinking of carrion, risen from the grave, and in-person he raped and murdered some fifty young women-by charming them into a vulnerable position, then having his fun.
Forgetting that the worst evils are human, is making yourself more vulnerable to them, rather than less.

Evil is not 'visible', it doesn't have a universally ugly face, but it exists, that nice neighbour down the street who volunteers at the homeless shelter three times a week and is 'involved' in lots of humanitarian causes might be the man you really, really, don't want to have alone with your ten-year-old niece.
(provided you love your niece, I guess...)

that nice man at the Grocery Store might like collecting the eyes of blonde little boys in his spare time.

so showing Hitler's "Human" side isn't all-bad, because it reminds us that nobody is all-good.

I think that he should be shown as human because we need to remember that he was one of us. He wasn't an anomaly, or some spawn of the devil. The capability to do what Hitler did remains in any one of us, or our descendants. Making Hitler a pure monster hides that fact.

I think humanizing Hitler, Stalin, and people like that is a good thing, as long as it doesn't stray into the territory of portraying them as "just misunderstood" and trying to downplay the atrocities they committed. Did they have messed up childhoods or events happening to them in their adult life that really fucked them up? Most certainly. But that doesn't justify what they did, nothing does.

Anyway, that sounds like an interesting movie. I wish I could see it, but of course nothing like that would be released in America.

Anyway, that sounds like an interesting movie. I wish I could see it, but of course nothing like that would be released in America.

It was released on feb. 18th. :rolleyes:

I might go see it this weekend.

As has been said, this is a good thing to do. We need to remember that Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and countless others weren't barb-tailed monsters who cunningly hid their horns under a dapper hat, they were often the most charismatic and likeably people around. This is indeed their power - they can convince other people that atrocities are the right thing to do, or that they aren't taking place at all. To show them as the real, Human people they were is to hopefully try and make people aware that we still need to be careful, because dictators aren't obvious.

I think humanizing Hitler, Stalin, and people like that is a good thing, as long as it doesn't stray into the territory of portraying them as "just misunderstood" and trying to downplay the atrocities they committed. Did they have messed up childhoods or events happening to them in their adult life that really fucked them up? Most certainly. But that doesn't justify what they did, nothing does.

Anyway, that sounds like an interesting movie. I wish I could see it, but of course nothing like that would be released in America.
its playing in america. i have seen it twice in california. IMHO, the movie is okay, i think it shows him to be weaker and more feeble than he was. but i ask of you this, why is it always about hitler? like he killed millions himself? why doesnt anyone ever think about the fact that you can have a guy, with many ideas that are pretty bizarre, but if no one follows him,or ever listens to him, the ideas never come to fruition? individuals should be responsible for their own minds, actions, and weaknesses. if you want to throw all this blame around- blame the tens of thousands that participated in the reich, fought the wars, and ran the camps. it wasnt just one little guy with a funny moustache.

If anyone's read Shadow of the Hegemon and Shadow Puppets, it is kind of like Achilles - they know he is an evil bastard, but at the same time, he has the charisma to make everyone think, he may have backstabbed them, but he won't do it to me. He may be evil, but he won't hurt me.

Hitler was a horrible person, but he was human, and probably not pure evil - so I think it is better to portay him accurately, as a charismatic man who at the same time did horrible things.

I really want to see this film.

But I find the condemnation of it on the grounds that it humanises Hitler as odd. I mean, he was human. Maybe some people would prefer the Hitler as historical strawman, meh. I mean, it isn't as if historians are united on what Hitler was like as a ruler, let alone a person.

I still want to see it.

I'd be interested in seeing it. As has been stated before, Hitler was only human, and he had a huge amount of personal charisma. No inhuman monster would become the leader of a nation with overwhelming support of the people. Much of the dehumanizing of Hitler, and the German people in general (as well as the Japanese...and the Viet Cong, etc,) was done through wartime propoganda and is a common tactic; it is much easier on the psyche of a soldier to kill an enemy that is less than human.

i think that it is necesary to actualy show to people that he was a real person who did exist instaed he will simply become known as pure evil and no one will ever think of the extent of how bad his actions were and people will think oh well what do you expect he's pure evil

if we dont understand the man how can we ever think about stopping it again

I just saw an excellent German film today called Downfall. This film shows the last days of the Reich in Berlin, through the eyes of Hitler's secretary. Hitler (excellently played by Bruno Ganz) is shown at his most charming and at his most despotic. Between fits of rage and moving imaginary army units around, he is gently caring towards his secretary, the Goebbels children, his dog and his wife, Eva Braun. This enclosed bunker life is compared brutally with the realities of warzone Berlin where Germans are hung for trying to escape, 12 year old members of the Volksstrum shoot themselves and medical aid is almost non-existent.

However the film has met with some criticism in the British press for humanising Hitler too much. They say showing his charming, caring side draws too much attention away from the evils he committed.

So what do you think? Do you think that the Western media should portray Hitler as a cold unthinking monster or a human with many facets to his personality?



I beleave he should be shown in the exact way he was. Even the most ruthless killers have had a kind moment, However, some kindness can not atone for 6 million slaughtered per your orders.

i think that it is necesary to actualy show to people that he was a real person who did exist instaed he will simply become known as pure evil and no one will ever think of the extent of how bad his actions were and people will think oh well what do you expect he's pure evil

if we dont understand the man how can we ever think about stopping it again

I just saw an excellent German film today called Downfall. This film shows the last days of the Reich in Berlin, through the eyes of Hitler's secretary. Hitler (excellently played by Bruno Ganz) is shown at his most charming and at his most despotic. Between fits of rage and moving imaginary army units around, he is gently caring towards his secretary, the Goebbels children, his dog and his wife, Eva Braun. This enclosed bunker life is compared brutally with the realities of warzone Berlin where Germans are hung for trying to escape, 12 year old members of the Volksstrum shoot themselves and medical aid is almost non-existent.

However the film has met with some criticism in the British press for humanising Hitler too much. They say showing his charming, caring side draws too much attention away from the evils he committed.

So what do you think? Do you think that the Western media should portray Hitler as a cold unthinking monster or a human with many facets to his personality?

The British press has always had this thing about nazis for obvious reasons. That doesn't make them right though. They're doing nothing more then creating a false delemma, as biased journalists often seem to do to sell a newspaper (I guess easy catagorization appeals to some people more then the alternative). To think that anything as complex as a human, even Hitler, can be seen in terms of black and white is naive. Showing Hitler's good side does not equate to justifying his bad side. If showing the good side of Hitler instantly downplays the bad things he did in the eyes of anyone then that person is a sheep.

I'm all for accuracy in history.

I thought that the British press had been quite balanced and reasonable about the whole thing, and hadn't made this an issue. But then I do read the Times, which is quality literature every day of the week.

I saw the same film a couple weeks ago (only showing at once theater in the vast and populous Province of Greater Phoenix).

I think that showing the humanity of adolf hitler is profound and should be done.

It is amazing to get what ammounts to a peek at the real-life of the real human being adolf hitler.

It is trememendously interesting to get an intimate look at such a singular specimen as hitler, who is popularly regarded as almost super-human in his evil and his influence on the world.

Hitler is probably the most complex and most studied person that lived in the 20th century. As a dictator he promoted himself as a hard and reliable but also a benevolent ruler. He made harsh and inhuman decisions with the wisdom that if he didn't the weak (in his eyes International Judaism) would corrupt the world. In his private life he was a kind and a gentleman for the women. He was charismatic, easy-going but not flexible: it was his vision or the high-vision... Yet on art he could accept criticism and advice, that's why Speer as an architect had such an influence on him. Yet no-one knew Hitler himself. Even Eva Braun -as she tells herself in 'Der Untergang/Downfall'- says she knew Hitler for some twenty years but she didn't really know her -then- husband. This was true: Hitler hid all his emotions and thoughts deep in himself. It is one of the reasons why Hitler became of legend: because no-one knows what he was like. Look at Stalin, few people knew that Russian dictator and the people loved his personality cultus.

I remember the up roar caused by this and another movie last year or the year before when it was first brought up.
I have no probs with it!

Hitler went insane because of the drugs!
Read about him he is human but inhuman/e

Hm, sounds very interesting. I don't suppose you know if it will be coming onto Sky Movies (UK), do you?

I think that everyone has already said everything that needs to be said here...

Hmmm. Sounds like a good movie. Don't think they'll ever show it here. I probably gotta get it from the Pirates!! Aarrr!!!

Great movie. Critics should shut the hell up.

And it's named Der Untergang. :rolleyes:

I believe that this is acceptable, as I believe a lot of people have clouded views on the man. Sure, he killed blah many a people, but he also took a economically dying nation, and turned it into a powerhouse, perhaps better than the super countries of today. He is like any other "bad guy", they all have a soft side to them somewhere.