NationStates Jolt Archive

Yesterday I posted an article from the ACU about the lefts attack on Tom DeLay. Below is another article from the ACU on the same subject. But what I found really repulsive is the statement in the article is what Teresa Heinz said. She really believes that the right rigged all the voting machines to steal the election!? My God! Does the left no no bounds! Why it would damn near be impossible to rig one machine let alone all of them! Anyways...read the article below and make of it what you will.

--



The left has come up with a target, and his name is Tom DeLay. He isn't their first and won't be their last, but for now he's the Republican they hope to take down.

They've tried in the past to do the same thing to others. Vice President Cheney, Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld and White House adviser Karl Rove have all been portrayed as ethically challenged and sleazy by the same folks who are now going after the House Republican leader from Texas. Trumped-up charges of illegality, paid ads and reports from ethics groups that are little more than fronts for partisan and ideological assaults on their opponents are all part of the now familiar pattern.

If the attacks on those who have come before are any guide, this will go on for some time and then subside as they find new targets on whom to vent their bile.

DeLay is far from perfect, but he's no criminal and one doubts if any of his colleagues really believes he's motivated by anything other than his strongly held principles and a desire to win. In fact, the argument that he's essentially a venal inside-the-Beltway operator is probably the weakest part of the left wing's case against him because, while one can picture him crossing the line to achieve his ideological objectives, it is impossible to visualize him doing so to make a buck.

He is, however, both tough and an in-your-face conservative who isn't in the habit of taking prisoners and knows that his opponents aren't going to pull their punches as they try to take him out. His problem is that the very qualities that make him an effective leader and a hero to his partisans also make him an inviting target. He no doubt considers that part of the price of leadership, and to a remarkable degree in today's Washington he's right.

The situation in which the left finds itself these days gives the boys and girls at MoveOn.org and the like little choice. They don't seem very adept at winning elections, but remain convinced that the problem is not their message but that the opposition cheats or at least won't play fair with them. Thus, the Bush forces must have somehow cheated in Ohio and elsewhere or, as Teresa Heinz Kerry apparently believes, rigged the newfangled voting machines across the country to steal the election from her sainted husband.

In their minds, no Republican or conservative could win anything on the merits, so we must all be dishonest manipulators and mean-spirited crooks of one kind or another.

The fact is that activist, ideologically driven organizations need enemies to raise money and to fuel the passions of the grassroots activists that give them their strength. We on the right have Hillary Clinton now that Bill is passé and Teddy Kennedy is too long in the tooth to pose much of a realistic threat to anybody. George Soros and his friends have their devils as well, with DeLay being chief among them.

Indeed, if he didn't already exist they would have to invent him or move on to someone else. But he does, and their attacks on him resonate well among the committed who hope against hope that even though they couldn't defeat Bush they might at least be able to get one of their enemies. The charges themselves matter little. At one level at least it doesn't even matter if they do get him because the fight itself will pay dividends if they can keep it up, raise money and whip up their troops in the process.

If they actually manage to shut DeLay up or persuade his colleagues to abandon him, that would be a bonus, but one doubts if they really expect that to happen. Nor is it realistic to expect that he will actually become an electoral liability to those of his colleagues who follow his lead or who have turned to him for help. Some will remember that Republicans tried this with then-Speaker Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill (D-Mass.) a couple of decades back. It didn't work then, and it isn't likely to work now.

DeLay himself strikes me as a prototypical example of an inner-directed politician. He doesn't take positions based on polls or wind direction and seems not to care a whit if his opponents don't like him. In that sense he's much like former Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.), who during his decades here simply ignored the panting of his opponents and did the job as he saw it.

Moreover, self-interest trumps all. His colleagues know that DeLay is widely admired among conservative and Republican activists for precisely the same reasons the left despises him and that abandoning him in the face of ideological and partisan assault would not go well with the people they will need to maintain a Republican majority in the House.

Did you write this yourself? It seems awfully biased.

FE, you seem confused...liberals WANT DeLay to stick around! he's a complete and utter embarassment to the GOP at this point, he's political poison, and his continued blunders and blatanly unethical behavior are pure gold for the Democrats. liberals are crossing their fingers and praying with all their might that the GOP won't get rid of DeLay too early, before he has the chance to thoroughly weaken his party and handicap his own teammates.

Note to thread originator: No matter how valid your points have been, are, or will be - if you put the word "conservative", "liberal", "Bush", "Kerry", "God", "abortion" or any of the like in your topic, you WILL be flamed.

..Usually by those with a liberal slant.

..Unless your post is rapturing over some recent Democratic victory.

Actually we'd like you to run DeLay for president in 2008. It'll just about guarantee a Republican defeat considering the irresponsible legislation and shady practices he's been involved in.

You mean this Tom Delay?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4418305.stm

You know.. the one who pays his family members grotesque amounts of money for doing nothing? Hate to break it to ya buddy, I suspect that he may not be the paragon of virtue you paint him as.

And since when did dissent become a bad thing? Your post seems to argue that "liberals" should just.. leave all pubbies alone. This phrase.. "partisan" That's what politics is all about! Fool! If you think winning an election somehow gives a party the right to do what it likes without opposition or criticism, without dissent.. then you really don't understand what democracy is all about. But I guess I can't blame you. It seems half of the GOP doesn't understand what democracy is about either.

Damnit, why can't you just pick one thing to attack, rather than just saying "the left's pathetic" and engaging in a circle-jerk? Yes, lefties do it all the time, too, but it really gets on my nerves when you just post something you hope is insulting without actually saying anything. You might as well have just said "++postcount, and you're all goobers."

The thing is many find it easier to believe that the president, a confirmed liar and probable halfwit, rigged the election than to believe that more than half of all americans were stupid enough to vote for him. Unfortunately, the most likely case is that they are both true.

Neither side has enough common ground to believe anything the other will say. When everything you believe in is completely contradicted by the opposition, and both sides believe their way is 'common sense', 'fundamental values', 'good', etc, then you arent going to have much in the way of rational discussion. :headbang:

Personally i believe in all those things Bush and his cronies dont seem to understand. You know, like honesty (not 'lets go get those weapons, er, i mean, those weapons that might be there, i mean those people that wanted to make weapons, er, fine lets go get those guys we say are bad. Just shut up and do what i say'), values (before they corrupted the word to mean 'what the bible says and only the parts i point at and not the other parts'), justice (not 'everybody should be accountable but us, so we arent going to acknowledge the international court'), etc.

You know, things like that. :rolleyes:

Listen, you partisan hacks really need to stop pissing at each other.

First off, this is politics, and the objective therof is to win. Secondly, american conservatives never gave up, they actually almost toppled a president for lying about his sexual practices. Does it seem all that crazy that liberals would want revenge when bush happens to lie quite frequently.

That's my third piont. Politicians lie. Not republicans, not democrats, politicians and if you blindly trust a politician from any side then you're always going to be in for a suprise.

To respond to the pile of partisan excrement you so horribly misnamed "News..."
The left has come up with a target, and his name is Tom DeLay. He isn't their first and won't be their last, but for now he's the Republican they hope to take down.
1. They've been targeting him for quite a while. He's the senate majority leader. Is there any real suprise that after all the attacks on Tom Dashcle, the last democrat that held that office, that the democrats might just start shooting at Tom DeLay?

They've tried in the past to do the same thing to others. Vice President Cheney, He's the vice president. He's easier to attack than bush, especially when the american perspective is as follows:

*George screws up something huge, and looks rather ape-ish in the process.*

*american response* OH George! That's ok! We cant expect our leaders to have the intellect of pond fungus, now can we?

Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld This is the only member of the bush administration that I want shot for stupidity. I don't care about George, Condi, or anyone else who makes mistakes, but this man knows less about military strategy than your average pot smoking pacifist. He left a huge gap in the defenses between the U.K. and American forces, and refused to close it, as a result Terrorist/insurgent/whatever the hell you want to call them forces drove straight through the gap, and hit our forces and supply lines from behind. This happened while his generals, and coalition generals were begging him to close the gap. He refused, next he's funded gigantic, fat cat "Stealth Blimp" programs(Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology, November 8, 2004, US Fed News October 5, 2004) while failing to ensure that our basic occupation force had neccesary vehicle and body armor. This is the first defense secretary I can find that was criticised vocally by his own troops. Even McNamara never caught it as hard as rumsfeld. Why? Rumsfeld is a political strategist, not a military tactician. He needs to accept his own military ignorance. But dont listen to me, listen to conservatives that are far wiser than I, and go to far greater
criticisms:

The Economist
April 24, 2004
U.S. Edition

and White House adviser Karl Rove Now this man is just brilliant. His distortion and propaganda programmes have had a wide reaching effect in scaring the populace into submission. Ari Fleischer, i'm quite sure under the coaching of Mr. Rove, told Americans to "Watch what they say." That's right america, no more free speech for you! George bush took the country to war for no real reason, has done horrible things to our economy, and yet he still persuaded about a third of the country to vote for him. That's because Karl "Goebbels" Rove is just fucking brilliant! Give the man a "Medal of Freedom" or something. He deserves a pretty peice of doublethink. have all been portrayed as ethically challenged and sleazy by the same folks who are now going after the House Republican leader from Texas. To my knowledge, they've been going after him for quite a while. They didn't just start this week, I can promise you that. Trumped-up charges of illegality, paid ads and reports from ethics groups that are little more than fronts for partisan and ideological assaults on their opponents are all part of the now familiar pattern.
Ok, i've seen the republicans and democrats both use political tactics like this. but the article gives no evidence that these are occuring, it only says they're occuring, and if you're going to spew a stream or rectal reminescent partisan garbage, then back your ideas up with hard facts.

If the attacks on those who have come before are any guide, this will go on for some time and then subside as they find new targets on whom to vent their bile. Much like the bile this article is spewing. Partisan, Stupid, and generally worthless.

DeLay is far from perfect, but he's no criminal and one doubts if any of his colleagues really believes he's motivated by anything other than his strongly held principles and a desire to win. Ok, I can buy that. I'll give it to you, DeLay isn't satan. This article may be heading towards the intellectual level of elementary schoolers. In fact, the argument that he's essentially a venal inside-the-Beltway operator is probably the weakest part of the left wing's case against him because, while one can picture him crossing the line to achieve his ideological objectives, it is impossible to visualize him doing so to make a buck. Well, prove me wrong whydoncha! I'm going to say this very clearly and in very small words so that people on both sides of the damned fence can hear me. No politician is trustworthy. Let me say it one more time: No Politican is trustworthy. I Don't care if his name is Jesus Harold Christ, and you've got 30,000 apocryphal stories about him saving kittens from trees. Obama, McCain, Delay, Clinton, Thurmond, they're all the same. Don't trust them, and don't cater to their lies.


He is, however, both tough and an in-your-face conservative who isn't in the habit of taking prisoners and knows that his opponents aren't going to pull their punches as they try to take him out. His problem is that the very qualities that make him an effective leader and a hero to his partisans also make him an inviting target. He no doubt considers that part of the price of leadership, and to a remarkable degree in today's Washington he's right.

The situation in which the left finds itself these days gives the boys and girls at MoveOn.org and the like little choice. They don't seem very adept at winning elections, but remain convinced that the problem is not their message but that the opposition cheats or at least won't play fair with them. Thus, the Bush forces must have somehow cheated in Ohio and elsewhere or, as Teresa Heinz Kerry apparently believes, rigged the newfangled voting machines across the country to steal the election from her sainted husband.

Blah blah blah blah blah, partisan bullshit, partisan bullshit, meaningless failed attempt at an analogous claim, etc. That section was pretty much pointless.


In their minds, no Republican or conservative could win anything on the merits, so we must all be dishonest manipulators and mean-spirited crooks of one kind or another. And you obviously think the same of Liberals? Isn't that right Mr Hypocriticalpants? Yes it is! That's right, Hypocracy Hipocritical face here stumbled on an important point. Everyones too busy pissing over the fence to actually do something intelligent, and until we get rid of the assholes on both sides, the people in the middle won't have a voice.

The rest of this article proves my point:
The fact is that activist, ideologically driven organizations need enemies to raise money and to fuel the passions of the grassroots activists that give them their strength. We on the right have Hillary Clinton now that Bill is passé and Teddy Kennedy is too long in the tooth to pose much of a realistic threat to anybody. George Soros and his friends have their devils as well, with DeLay being chief among them.

He admits it! He's a partisan asshole! You can disregard the rest of this article ladies and gentlemen, my point has been proved.

Now...

Stop reading partisan bullshit, turn off Fox News, Burn the ACU papers, and log in to lexis nexis. Get real news, not lies.

So many of you are equating conservatives to the Republican Party, when in fact, the Republican Party is currently made up of middle-of-the-road, right-leaning moderates.
You have to look at people like Michael Petrouka and Pat Buchannan and Rush Limbaugh to see true conservatism.

So many of you are equating conservatives to the Republican Party, when in fact, the Republican Party is currently made up of middle-of-the-road, right-leaning moderates.
You have to look at people like Michael Petrouka and Pat Buchannan and Rush Limbaugh to see true conservatism.

...


NO. You look in that direction if you want to see circus clowns.

Limbaugh thinks there are more trees in america today than there were when columbus landed.

Buchanan thinks that the UPC codes on the backs of books are a mark of the devil.

True conservatism is my party. Libertarians. Small government, Small business, and Civil Liberties. Republicans, you're right, aren't conservative. THey aren't Neo conservative. They're Neo Fascist. And the democrats are socialists.

http://img.vgcats.com/050404.jpg

Isle of Skye, though your language is at times very heated, you have made many good points. I particularly resent the attacks on the media claiming that the mainstream is inherently liberal, or even that they have given Bush too much room due to a Conservative slant. It is more the procedural institutional negligence that can be a problem, so if there is a story that is of interest it becomes necessary to check many sources to try to determine the facts and weed out the differences of opinion. Too often the urge is to check one source, or even set of sources that are often in agreement, and then just assume that stance. The essential quailty of the informed person is to never lose the skepticism yet to always maintain an open mind, knowing one's inherent bias. By actually reading the news from many sources instead of just following a series of talking points there can actually be a debate instead of this anger and invective fueled attack machine by people that pretend to be shocked that someone on their supposed side in the leadership may be worth investigating. It is one thing to support someone through good and bad, but another to merely impugn someone's motives to try to sideline criticism.

The liberals will never give up. They want nothing but power and they don't care how they get it.

>Why it would damn near be impossible to rig one machine let alone all of them!
:confused:
Then you don't know enough about the technology and development process that went into these machines. Some of the most embattled voting machines are developed in Microsoft Access, a simple database system with nearly nonexistent security. I've worked with Access almost every work day for the last eight years. Changing the results in these databases is beyond trivial. California successfully sued diebold and got their voting machines removed because of flagrant security flaws. http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3449691?headline=Diebold~to~Settle~with~California. Countless leaked memos http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/diebold_memos.html between Diebold employees prove that they knew all along and chose not to close those security holes. The source code for the voting machines has been publicly available and under attack for years for being so easy to manipulate. http://www.google.com/search?q=diebold+mdb+hack+%22how+to%22

So before before you go mouthing off incredulously about how hard it would be to rig the voting machines, go download the software and try it yourself.

Your inability to understand or admit how simple it is to rig this stuff just makes it inevitable that someone will.

The liberals will never give up. They want nothing but power and they don't care how they get it.
:confused:
Damn, I don't think I got that memo yet.

I didn't read anything but the title of this thread and I pose the question:
When will conservatives stop making these silly "Liberals make no sense" or "Liberals give up" threads and then refuse to answer the questions made by liberals to conservatives? If you are going to make a thread that will piss off a lot of people, I think you should be expected to answer (as creator of the thread) every question asked of you, not choose and pick a few select ones or change topics.

The liberals will never give up. They want nothing but power and they don't care how they get it.

Unlike conservatives, who are only interested in the well being of our great nation, right?

HEY! How about some substantive responses like the ones on the first page?

*sighs* Yet another thread in which the words liberal and conservative are bandied about with no thought as to their actual meaning.

I find it absolutely laughable that conservatives are crying about liberal attacks on their leaders. Does anyone remember the Clinton administration? The man was on trial on a daily basis.

Here we have Tom DeLay being attacked for violating House ethics rules by allowing foreign powers and lobbyists to influence his vote. And we had Bill Clinton being attacked for receiving a hummer. Pop quiz: which one affects job performance, and is therefore the business of the American people to know? And which is a totally private affair?

Here we have the case against Tom DeLay being made with gathered testimony and evidence which is mounting every day. And we had Bill Clinton accused of having people murdered, though there was absolutely no substance to these accusations which were, quite frankly, irresponsible and retarded. Can you see the difference?

I am neither conservative nor liberal, but I abhor the conservative tactics. The conservatives have built a media machine which only exists to practice the most egregious form of attack journalism. After what the conservatives have done to the political discourse in this country in the past decade or so, the liberals could publicly shower DeLay with feces and rat carcasses and still claim the moral high ground.

Thank you for providing a perfect example of the conservative media garbage in the first post to this thread. You've made my point for me.

Tom DeLay and Jesse Helms are the pinnacles of American Politics.

I still say the biscuithead who posted it wrote the "article" himself. :rolleyes:

Note to thread originator: No matter how valid your points have been, are, or will be - if you put the word "conservative", "liberal", "Bush", "Kerry", "God", "abortion" or any of the like in your topic, you WILL be flamed.

..Usually by those with a liberal slant.

..Unless your post is rapturing over some recent Democratic victory.

Not too many recent Democratic victories these days...I think that's why they're so angry.

Keruvalia gives this thread an ugly crying baby:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Babies/UglyBaby.gif

hahahaha.
awesome doctor. and hello, by the way.
the writer of this thread needs to dump his name. he is all screwed, logic wise. i dont like ignorants representing my politics.

The liberals will never give up. They want nothing but power and they don't care how they get it.
I expected more than this from you, Corny.

Unlike conservatives, who are only interested in the well being of our great nation, right?

Politicians are politicians for a reason but the liberals are on the right track and that is why they keep losing elections. The people have rejected their viewpoint time and again and the state democrats are now up in arms because they can't seem to win elections. Those that do, tend to me more conservative to moderate democrats.

the liberals are on the right track
I didn't expect you to say this!

*sighs* Yet another thread in which the words liberal and conservative are bandied about with no thought as to their actual meaning.

Liberals--Analysts who reject power politics and argue that people are capable of finding mutual interests and cooperating to achieve them. They also reject the notion that all or most humans are inherently political predators

Conservatives/Realists--Analysts who believe that countries operate in their own self-interests and that politics is a struggle for power. They are pessimistic. They believe that political struggle among humans is probably inevitable because people have an inherent dark side.

buwahahahaha!!!! Gotta love my Global Politics text book! :D

I expected more than this from you, Corny.

Listen to their rhetoric during the campaign. Ok both sides are guilty but shesh! Listen to the Dems talk and you think the end of the world is here due to Bush getting re-elected.

*checks around*

Yep still here.

I didn't expect you to say this!

Care to point out where I said it or did you just put that in somewhere because I reviewed my quotes and I didn't say what you are saying I'm saying.

Listen to their rhetoric during the campaign. Ok both sides are guilty but shesh! Listen to the Dems talk and you think the end of the world is here due to Bush getting re-elected.

*checks around*

Yep still here.
What, you mean like the ad that implied that we'd be feed to the wolves if the election went a certain way? No, wait...that was-

I've been reading this whole thread understanding very little of all the euthamisms you americans use. This arguments seems to have very little to do with actual ideology and more with party squabling. From an ideological point of view its easy to see that both the main american partys are pretty much the same - centre-right oppertunists whose primary consideration is getting elected. what did make me laugh was when somebody, maybe even deliberatly as a joke called the democrats socialists.

i'm from europe, where socialism is a real thing, not just some vaugue force of evil in the world, as the word seems to mean when most americans i have heard have used it. do the democrats want to raise taxes on the rich, nationalise industy, or create a welfare state? maybe if they did there would be a point to arguments like these, and maybe america would end up not being in such a mess.

"do the democrats want to raise taxes on the rich,

Check.

nationalise industy

No. They're not so foolish as to attempt to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. They do oppose privatization of public businesses, however (like the post office or water companies), so they're halfway there.

create a welfare state?

Check.

Two and a half out of three. That's socialist enough, don't you think?

All politicians involved in 'democratic' elections are filthy conniving sods. Dictatorships demand ownership of your heart and mind. Democracies demand ownership of the contents of your wallet. Same crap, different bum.

When will we give up? Not anytime soon friend...

I thought these silly Republican/Democrat pissing contests died out back in December.

http://img.vgcats.com/050404.jpg
Hakartopia wins the thread
:gives hakartopia a cookie

Liberals--Analysts who reject power politics and argue that people are capable of finding mutual interests and cooperating to achieve them. They also reject the notion that all or most humans are inherently political predators

Conservatives/Realists--Analysts who believe that countries operate in their own self-interests and that politics is a struggle for power. They are pessimistic. They believe that political struggle among humans is probably inevitable because people have an inherent dark side.

buwahahahaha!!!! Gotta love my Global Politics text book! :D


I've been reading this whole thread understanding very little of all the euthamisms you americans use. This arguments seems to have very little to do with actual ideology and more with party squabling. From an ideological point of view its easy to see that both the main american partys are pretty much the same - centre-right oppertunists whose primary consideration is getting elected. what did make me laugh was when somebody, maybe even deliberatly as a joke called the democrats socialists.

i'm from europe, where socialism is a real thing, not just some vaugue force of evil in the world, as the word seems to mean when most americans i have heard have used it. do the democrats want to raise taxes on the rich, nationalise industy, or create a welfare state? maybe if they did there would be a point to arguments like these, and maybe america would end up not being in such a mess.

First of all, democrats are socialist. I used to be one, but like the libertarian view. Both citizens and corporations have rights, but citizen's rights are valued far above corporate rights. It doesn't mean unrestricted corporations, it just means less taxes.

Secondly, thank you, european friend, for pointing out, yet again, that party idiocy is at it's prime. Please read my post on the first page of this thread.

Yesterday I posted an article from the ACU about the lefts attack on Tom DeLay. Below is another article from the ACU on the same subject. But what I found really repulsive is the statement in the article is what Teresa Heinz said. She really believes that the right rigged all the voting machines to steal the election!? My God! Does the left no no bounds! Why it would damn near be impossible to rig one machine let alone all of them! Anyways...read the article below and make of it what you will.

If you are on this mailing list and posting this crap, you obviously believe it. But you shouldn't.

Try to find an actual source for Ms. Heinz saying any such thing.

What I make of the "article" is that it would best be used as toilet paper.

As to Tom DeLay, the Republicans control the House and the Ethics Committee. They have passed special protections for him. Yet the stink of his corruption escapes the best spin control. As I said yesterday, we liberals and Democrats hope you do cling tight to DeLay. He will be our savior.

Politicians are politicians for a reason but the liberals are on the right track and that is why they keep losing elections. The people have rejected their viewpoint time and again and the state democrats are now up in arms because they can't seem to win elections. Those that do, tend to me more conservative to moderate democrats.

the liberals are on the right track
I didn't expect you to say this!

I didn't expect you to say this!Care to point out where I said it or did you just put that in somewhere because I reviewed my quotes and I didn't say what you are saying I'm saying.

This is kinda sad.

I don't know how many times we've been through this sort of thing.

You said it.

In this case I'm sure you didn't mean it. But you said it. ;)

Listen to their rhetoric during the campaign. Ok both sides are guilty but shesh! Listen to the Dems talk and you think the end of the world is here due to Bush getting re-elected.

*checks around*

Yep still here.
This is true, but big deal! Republicans spoke as if the election of John Kerry would bring about the destruction of America. :rolleyes:

Well Bush got re-elected, the Pope died, Terri Schiavo died, there was a tsunami, gas is up, Americans are dying in the Middle East, Israel is building a wall, Putin is oppressing, Germans want the Berlin Wall back, 10,000 French people died because of heat, tanks are deployed to anti-Bush protest...you know...are you sure the world isn't ending?

Well Bush got re-elected,

Yes he did thank god.

the Pope died

May God Rest his soul

Terri Schiavo died

May God rest her soul.

there was a tsunami, gas is up, Americans are dying in the Middle East, Israel is building a wall, Putin is oppressing, Germans want the Berlin Wall back, 10,000 French people died because of heat, tanks are deployed to anti-Bush protest...you know...are you sure the world isn't ending?

Yes there was a Tsunami, happens in earthquakes like those! Gas is up which disproves something the liberals have been screaming since day one! Not as many americans have been dying in Middle East! Deaths are actually down in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel is trying to defend itself, albeit in poor taste, but can't blame them. I never trusted Putin and this doesn't surprise me. Germany wants the wall back? Proof please! As for the French, that is what happens when your healthcare system collapses, btw: state runned to boot. Tanks deployed? Yea water tanks unless you have proof that says otherwise.

Yes I know the world isn't coming to an end.

http://www.freewebs.com/golaniv/ejection.bmp

I predict the Liberals will give up on December 22nd, 2006. A formal announcement will be posted on Democracy.org and in printed in The Village Voice. They will go into retirement and enjoy a quiet life somewhere in Vermont.

Two and a half out of three. That's socialist enough, don't you think?

More than enough thank you. :D


http://www.freewebs.com/golaniv/ejection.bmp


LOL...I love it!

I predict the Liberals will give up on December 22nd, 2006. A formal announcement will be posted on Democracy.org and in printed in The Village Voice. They will go into retirement and enjoy a quiet life somewhere in Vermont.
LOL ;)

Seriously though, this thread sounds a lot like ...
*Wah* Mommy, mommy, make it stop! Mommy! *Wah*
:rolleyes:

...and in keeping true to the aforementioned thread ....
(Article not presented in entirety, irrelevant parts excluded)

DeLay angrily refutes questions about ethics
By Shailagh Murray (WASHINGTON POST) - Week of April 7, 2005
…
Majority Whip Toy Blunt of Missouri, the No. 3 Republican in the House, said at a news conference: “I don’t see any wavering support for the leader. I think a lot of members think he’s taking arrows for all of us.”
The Texas Republican was hit by a fresh wave of ethical questions Wednesday. The Washington Post reported that DeLay accepted a six-day trip to Moscow in 1997 that was financed by lobbyists for the Russian government. House ethics rules bar the acceptance of travel reimbursement from registered lobbyists and foreign agents. DeLay reported that the $57,000 trip was funded by a Washington-based non-profit group.
Meanwhile, the New York Times reported that DeLay’s political action and campaign committee have paid DeLay’s wife, Christine, and daughter, Dani DeLay Ferro, more than $500,000 since 2001. DeLay dismissed both stories on CNN as “another seedy attempt by the liberal media to embarrass me.”
…
DeLay told CNN that the Moscow trip was properly financed and reported. “No member can be responsible for going into the bowels of researching what this organization, how it gets its money or how it’s funded. The rules say if it’s a legitimate organization that funds the trip and it’s reported, it’s legal.”

.... maybe worth arguing, maybe worth ignoring. Whatevah.

LOL ;)

Seriously though, this thread sounds a lot like ...
*Wah* Mommy, mommy, make it stop! Mommy! *Wah*
:rolleyes:

...and in keeping true to the aforementioned thread ....

DeLay angrily refutes questions about ethics
By Shailagh Murray (WASHINGTON POST) - Week of April 7, 2005
…
Majority Whip Toy Blunt of Missoury, the No. 3 Republican in the House, said at a news conference: “I don’t see any wavering support for the leader. I think a lot of members think he’s taking arrows for all of us.”
The Texas Republican was hit by a fresh wave of ethical questions Wednesday. The Washington Post reported that DeLay accepted a six-day trip to Moscow in 1997 that was financed by lobbyists for the Russian government. House ethics rules bar the acceptance of travel reimbursement from registered lobbyists and foreign agents. DeLay reported that the $57,000 trip was funded by a Washington-based non-profit group.
Meanwhile, the New York Times reported that DeLay’s political action and campaign committee have paid DeLay’s wife, Christine, and daughter, Dani DeLay Ferro, more than $500,000 since 2001. DeLay dismissed both stories on CNN as “another seedy attempt by the liberal media to embarrass me.”
…
DeLay told CNN that the Moscow trip was properly financed and reported. “No member can be responsible for going into the bowels of researching what this organization, how it gets its money or how it’s funded. The rules say if it’s a legitimate organization that funds the trip and it’s reported, it’s legal.”

.... maybe worth arguing, maybe worth ignoring.

I think the whole Delay thing is a bit of press fueled and aided revenge for the Dems. All politicians are corrupt, all politicians have broken the rules and cheated. The press just selects who they wish to hurt and whose dirty laundry they will ignore.

I think the whole Delay thing is a bit of press fueled and aided revenge for the Dems. All politicians are corrupt, all politicians have broken the rules and cheated. The press just selects who they wish to hurt and whose dirty laundry they will ignore.
It is worth mentioning that DeLay himself is partisan in sense of attacking people who don't share his beliefs, politically and personally. He can suck off as much as he gets sucked, i'm happy he hasn't got it so easy. I agree that politicians in general, as per nature of beast, probably have too much negative influence for and against their ability to fulfill their obligations and duties to the people for whom they supposedly represent. Doesn't matter to me which party they're from, but it does matter how much "power" they wield. Or moreover how much support for such they get from their party .... *sigh*
The press' preoccupation with people like Paris Hilton is obvious testament to the the integrity of public scrutiny and press pursuits .... :rolleyes:

Stupid left wingers and right wingers, hijacking the definition of liberal to suit some stupid political agenda.

It is worth mentioning that DeLay himself is partisan in sense of attacking people who don't share his beliefs, politically and personally. He can suck off as much as he gets sucked, i'm happy he hasn't got it so easy. I agree that politicians in general, as per nature of beast, probably have too much negative influence for and against their ability to fulfill their obligations and duties to the people for whom they supposedly represent. Doesn't matter to me which party they're from, but it does matter how much "power" they wield. Or moreover how much support for such they get from their party .... *sigh*
The press' preoccupation with people like Paris Hilton is obvious testament to the the integrity of public scrutiny and press pursuits .... :rolleyes:

I am very pleased with the new dominance of webloggers an internet sites for news because I know they are all pure as the wind driven snow. ;)

Stupid left wingers and right wingers, hijacking the definition of liberal to suit some stupid political agenda.
Amen to that.

stfu, you all think your right and everyone who thinks someone else is wrong

http://www.freewebs.com/golaniv/ejection.bmp
Not a bad idea. *ejects from his MS into a core fighter*
http://www.gundamuniverse.it/0083/FF-XII%20Core%20Fighter%20II-file/ff-xii.jpg

I am very pleased with the new dominance of webloggers an internet sites for news because I know they are all pure as the wind driven snow. ;)
Heh, LOL again. Two good ones on one thread! I'd be in stitches if i weren't watching Sally Kellerman on "The Outer Limits" reruns (The Human Factor)
;)

Frist at Odds with GOP on judicial accountability
by Carl Hulse (NY Times) - Week of April 6, 2005

(Excerpts of, for sake of flow)

WASHINGTON - The struggle over the relationship between Congress and the courts intensified Tuesday as Sen. Bill Frist, R-Tenn., the majority leader, broke with fellow Republicans calling for new judicial accountability after Terri Schiavo's death. Democrats accused Republicans of undermining the seperation of powers.
Disagreeing with the Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, who is the House majority leader, Frist said he saw no need to examine why federal judges chose not to intervene in Schiavo's care after Congress had passed an emergency law that let them do so.
"I believe we have a fair and independent judiciary today," said Frist, who declined to comment directly on DeLay. "I respect that."
...
"The Republican legislative leaders in Congress have forgotten what our Constitution's all about," the minority leader, Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., said. "If they don't get what they want, they attack who's ever around. Now they're after the courts."
Reid cited DeLay's comments last week that suggested potential retribution against the judges, as well as a speech Monday by Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, a former state judge. In his remarks on the Senate floor, Cornyn said he wondered whether recent court-related violence could be connected to public frustration with an unaccountable judiciary.
On Tuesday, Cornyn said that he did not share DeLay's view on examining the judges and that his own comments were being misconstrued for political reasons. He also said judges should expect to have their work scrutinized.
...
DeLay has for years been outspoken in criticizing what he sees as judicial activism, and he has led legislative efforts to limit the jurisdiction of federal judges in some areas.

Well, i could repost some of the Schiavo stuff but Sally came back up again. Mebbelaytah.

stfu, you all think your right and everyone who thinks someone else is wrong

buuuuuuut. . .you think you are right in this opinion sooooooooo. . .shouldn't you also stfu?

buuuuuuut. . .you think you are right in this opinion sooooooooo. . .shouldn't you also stfu?
But... you think that he thinks he is right in his opinion :eek:
XD XD XD

The liberals will never give up. They want nothing but power and they don't care how they get it.The first sentence is probably right: liberals will never give up. But the second sentence is a matter of opinion. A liberal will tell you that s/he will never give up because liberals have every right to voice their own opinions. Of course, these "attacks" on Tom DeLay--none of which were specifically mentioned (what are they accusing him of?)--are a direct result of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, freedom of speech. Asking liberals to give up would be like saying that everyone has a right to free speech, as long as you're not a liberal, i.e. a fascist dictatorship.
In addition, conservatives seem to be the ones harping on a theme. Did liberals complain when conservatives attacked their politicians? I don't know any liberals who are attacking Tom DeLay—never met or seen any, and I live in arguably the most liberal city in America.

For clarification to all conservatives:

1) Who is accusing Tom DeLay, specifically?

2) What are they accusing him of?

3) Why is it such a major issue for conservatives?

But... you think that he thinks he is right in his opinion :eek:
XD XD XD

its like one of those causality loops from Star Trek! We need to scan for tachyon particles and reconfigure the dish array to admit an anti-tachyon pulse, then every body will not have to stfu.

Meh

Meh

New and already bored or an old hand with a new name and already bored?

For clarification to all conservatives:

1) Who is accusing Tom DeLay, specifically?

US House Majority Leader (Currently at the Vatican for Pope's funeral)

2) What are they accusing him of?

Economic stuff. Ethics violations which most representatives and senators are guilty of.

3) Why is it such a major issue for conservatives?

Actually, the dems have turned it into a major issue and the Republicans are defending him because of the dems attacks on him.

its like one of those causality loops from Star Trek! We need to scan for tachyon particles and reconfigure the dish array to admit an anti-tachyon pulse, then every body will not have to stfu.
Or we can sync our phases with a proton shield!!!! (Voyager)
Qapla'!
Wait, wouldn't the U.S.S. Relativity intervene and all that jazz??

Or we can sync our phases with a proton shield!!!! (Voyager)
Qapla'!
Wait, wouldn't the U.S.S. Relativity intervene and all that jazz??

Goddamn future time cold war bastards. Always stepping on people's toes.

Previously I stated Liberals would give up and retire on the 22nd of December, 2006. After checking numerous sources including　Revelations, I have come to believe I was a bit hasty. The correct date is the 24th, Christmas Eve. It will historically be considered an early gift to the Republicans who will show their usual lack of restraint tear open the package immediately.

Previously I stated Liberals would give up and retire on the 22nd of December, 2006. After checking numerous sources including　Revelations, I have come to believe I was a bit hasty. The correct date is the 24th, Christmas Eve. It will historically be considered an early gift to the Republicans who will show their usual lack of restraint tear open the package immediately.
*hands you a ham*
D'ya think the 3 ghosts of Xmas might have a hand in it as well, or just the influence of "jesus" the redeemer mounted on horseback with that giant sinner-mowing blade spewing from his mouth that really does the job?

The liberals will never give up. They want nothing but power and they don't care how they get it.


LMAO! Dammit how did he figure us out! The smartest man alive has been found.


one republican says the Left gives up too easily and the other says we will never give up.

Yesterday I posted an article from the ACU about the lefts attack on Tom DeLay. Below is another article from the ACU on the same subject. But what I found really repulsive is the statement in the article is what Teresa Heinz said. She really believes that the right rigged all the voting machines to steal the election!? My God! Does the left no no bounds! Why it would damn near be impossible to rig one machine let alone all of them! Anyways...read the article below and make of it what you will.

--



The left has come up with a target, and his name is Tom DeLay. He isn't their first and won't be their last, but for now he's the Republican they hope to take down.

They've tried in the past to do the same thing to others. Vice President Cheney, Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld and White House adviser Karl Rove have all been portrayed as ethically challenged and sleazy by the same folks who are now going after the House Republican leader from Texas. Trumped-up charges of illegality, paid ads and reports from ethics groups that are little more than fronts for partisan and ideological assaults on their opponents are all part of the now familiar pattern.

If the attacks on those who have come before are any guide, this will go on for some time and then subside as they find new targets on whom to vent their bile.

DeLay is far from perfect, but he's no criminal and one doubts if any of his colleagues really believes he's motivated by anything other than his strongly held principles and a desire to win. In fact, the argument that he's essentially a venal inside-the-Beltway operator is probably the weakest part of the left wing's case against him because, while one can picture him crossing the line to achieve his ideological objectives, it is impossible to visualize him doing so to make a buck.

He is, however, both tough and an in-your-face conservative who isn't in the habit of taking prisoners and knows that his opponents aren't going to pull their punches as they try to take him out. His problem is that the very qualities that make him an effective leader and a hero to his partisans also make him an inviting target. He no doubt considers that part of the price of leadership, and to a remarkable degree in today's Washington he's right.

The situation in which the left finds itself these days gives the boys and girls at MoveOn.org and the like little choice. They don't seem very adept at winning elections, but remain convinced that the problem is not their message but that the opposition cheats or at least won't play fair with them. Thus, the Bush forces must have somehow cheated in Ohio and elsewhere or, as Teresa Heinz Kerry apparently believes, rigged the newfangled voting machines across the country to steal the election from her sainted husband.

In their minds, no Republican or conservative could win anything on the merits, so we must all be dishonest manipulators and mean-spirited crooks of one kind or another.

The fact is that activist, ideologically driven organizations need enemies to raise money and to fuel the passions of the grassroots activists that give them their strength. We on the right have Hillary Clinton now that Bill is passé and Teddy Kennedy is too long in the tooth to pose much of a realistic threat to anybody. George Soros and his friends have their devils as well, with DeLay being chief among them.

Indeed, if he didn't already exist they would have to invent him or move on to someone else. But he does, and their attacks on him resonate well among the committed who hope against hope that even though they couldn't defeat Bush they might at least be able to get one of their enemies. The charges themselves matter little. At one level at least it doesn't even matter if they do get him because the fight itself will pay dividends if they can keep it up, raise money and whip up their troops in the process.

If they actually manage to shut DeLay up or persuade his colleagues to abandon him, that would be a bonus, but one doubts if they really expect that to happen. Nor is it realistic to expect that he will actually become an electoral liability to those of his colleagues who follow his lead or who have turned to him for help. Some will remember that Republicans tried this with then-Speaker Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill (D-Mass.) a couple of decades back. It didn't work then, and it isn't likely to work now.

DeLay himself strikes me as a prototypical example of an inner-directed politician. He doesn't take positions based on polls or wind direction and seems not to care a whit if his opponents don't like him. In that sense he's much like former Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.), who during his decades here simply ignored the panting of his opponents and did the job as he saw it.

Moreover, self-interest trumps all. His colleagues know that DeLay is widely admired among conservative and Republican activists for precisely the same reasons the left despises him and that abandoning him in the face of ideological and partisan assault would not go well with the people they will need to maintain a Republican majority in the House.
He's been investigated for sneaky campaign funds before, and it's happening again. But this time, the shit has hit the fan. You can't give your family half a million dollars for anything, with campaign money, and expect to appear innocent.

You're just trying to defend your party, by putting forth your own moral judgements for Conservatives and against liberals. FreeRepublic.com, a popular Conservative news site, pissed me off recently, because someone posted an article about how a liberal forum I visit is full of Communists. They even posted fake quotes and fake usernames. It was outright lies. One of the moderators from the forum created an account and posted that he was a Vietnam veteran, not a communist, and a moderator of our forum. Within seconds, his post was deleted and he was permanently banned. Many have experienced this--if you post any liberal thought on their site that isn't absolutely idiotic, they won't allow it.

If you google for certain slurs, you'll find, however, that they do allow slurs against blacks, gays, hispanics, and especially arabs. Why they'd allow offensive and prejudiced language, but not dissenting opinions is beyond me.

The point is, though--what if Tom DeLay is actually guilty? No. You won't believe it. You're convinced by the Republicans that any force which stands in their way MUST be part of the liberal conspiracy. Like the communists of the McCarthy Era, the "liberal conspiracy" has become the new myth. Just like with McCarthy, even the term "indoctrination" is still used. No, this concept of a conspiracy is nonsense. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm sure Clinton used some illegal campaign funds too. But your little story, defining Tom DeLay as a guy who "takes no prisoners" is idiotic. He's a politician, not Rambo. Honestly, your melodramatic speech is pathetic. Remember: Appeals to emotion are fallacious.

The liberals will give up the fight (which has raged since the enlightenment) when the last bible babbling 'creationist' is shouted out of the schools and back to his hovel and the last anti-abortion loon is shouted back to his hovel and the last disgraceful education-slashing traitor is shouted back to his plantation and the last "business is the business of government" military-industrial snake is shoved down a hole or shot.



You ask, "what is our aim?"

I can answer in one word.

Victory

Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be.

Did republicans lay down and let the Clinton administration walk all over them and get everything it wanted during the 90's?

Of course not.

So why should democrats lay down and give up the fight now?

What the hell kind of an opposition party would that be?

Did you honestly expect liberals to crawl into a corner and die just because a semi-liberal candidate lost an election? If you did, you are a fool. Or just a fucking hypocrite. Take your pick.

Why shouldn't we fight at least as hard as the conservatives did in the 90's? In fact, you should expect it.

Of course Tom DeLay, W, and Dick Cheney are going to get attacked. If this troubles you, then so too it would trouble you if Clinton, Al Gore, or Tom Daschle were ever attacked, no?

We've been here a long time, and we're not leaving any time soon, at least not with out raising hell.

I'll stop fighting for what's right when I'm finally torn out of the world of the living, and not a minute before.

But what I found really repulsive is the statement in the article is what Teresa Heinz said.

The article provides no proof of any such statement, or even a quote.

She really believes that the right rigged all the voting machines to steal the election!? My God! Does the left no no bounds! Why it would damn near be impossible to rig one machine let alone all of them! Anyways...read the article below and make of it what you will.

Wow, you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? Most states use Diebold machines, which are *incredibly* easy to rig. You know those fun little voter cards they give you to stick in the machine? Yeah, an intern at the GA senate hit one of those with a small electric charge, stuck it into the machine, and got *full adminstrative rights* to the computer. Tests have been done on the Diebold machines to show just how insecure they are. However, most states have deemed it unnecessary and too expensive to add a paper trail.

Not that I think all the machines were rigged, mind you - but it would be damn easy to rig some of them.

Damn, some hot replies.
It might seem that the spirit of The Red Arrow is alive n'well, growing and pulsing and seething and snarling and dagnabbit it makes a good read.

Damn, some hot replies.
It might seem that the spirit of The Red Arrow is alive n'well, growing and pulsing and seething and snarling and dagnabbit it makes a good read.

Hey, FE asked when we'd give up, and I gave my answer, that being: the day I die.

...we'll give up when you pry the lit joint from my cold, dead fingers...

Hey, FE asked when we'd give up, and I gave my answer, that being: the day I die.
All the more power to you. Keep up the good fight *not sarcasm*

Last I recall is that every politician wants power, why else would he or she be in the business? Oh wait, yes, to do something good, yep... Anyone who believes that for just a second needs a shrink.

And, to go to the topic... When will conservatives finally realize that we're in the 21st century and not in the 16th?

But you know, I wouldn't even call the democrats in the States "left". I don't know, they don't seem to be "left" to me. Maybe left over, or left behind, but political left? Errrrrrr... no. Maybe... somewhere in the middle batting their eyelashes to some left ideas, but that's it.

I predict the Liberals will give up on December 22nd, 2006. A formal announcement will be posted on Democracy.org and in printed in The Village Voice. They will go into retirement and enjoy a quiet life somewhere in Vermont.

No! Keep them away! Shield my eyes!

"Yes he did thank god."
Don't thank God for that, Jesus would be sickened!

"May God Rest his soul."
Yes, indeed to this one.

"May God rest her soul."
If you wanted God to rest her soul, you should have liked her to die 15 years ago!

"Yes there was a Tsunami, happens in earthquakes like those!"
Yeah, but natural disasters on such a large scale are predicted in the Bible as the end times.

"Gas is up which disproves something the liberals have been screaming since day one!"
What does it disprove? Liberals are saying gas will go up and it has.

"Not as many americans have been dying in Middle East! Deaths are actually down in Iraq and Afghanistan."
One American is too many for me. You know a helicopter crashed in Afghanistan killing 13 soldiers yesterday, is it me or is joining the army more deadly than fighting a war?

"Israel is trying to defend itself, albeit in poor taste, but can't blame them."
Honestly, just saying. If I had my way the PLO would be blown off the face of the earth. Terrorism in a country is an internal affair and the killing of civilians is always wrong.

"I never trusted Putin and this doesn't surprise me."
Did anyone?

"Germany wants the wall back? Proof please!"
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050326/2005-03-26T132941Z_01_L26474730_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-GERMANY-WALL-DC.html
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050326/wl_nm/germany_wall_dc
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-03-26-wall-poll_x.htm?csp=34
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=615448
Four credible news sources, just because you missed it doesn't mean it isn't true.

"As for the French, that is what happens when your healthcare system collapses, btw: state runned to boot."
ROFL you sure are something else. It is their geographic location that caused this, not healthcare. The problem is last summer there was a massive heatwave in France, a nation with very very few air-conditioners. This led to many people dying of heat stroke because they went along in their normal day and didn't head to the new dangers of heat. Get your facts right before you blame something.

"Tanks deployed? Yea water tanks unless you have proof that says otherwise."
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118867
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00161.htm


"Yes I know the world isn't coming to an end."
If you are a religious Christian man, think that statement over....

"Yes he did thank god."
Don't thank God for that, Jesus would be sickened!

Thank God Bush won. I wouldn't trust Kerry to fight if my life depended on it.

"May God Rest his soul."
Yes, indeed to this one.

Thanks!

"May God rest her soul."
If you wanted God to rest her soul, you should have liked her to die 15 years ago!

May God rest her soul.

"Yes there was a Tsunami, happens in earthquakes like those!"
Yeah, but natural disasters on such a large scale are predicted in the Bible as the end times.

And they have occured over and over again for thousands of years and the end of the world hasn't come yet.

"Gas is up which disproves something the liberals have been screaming since day one!"
What does it disprove? Liberals are saying gas will go up and it has.

Oil is turned into fuel for cars. If the liberals were right, our gas prices would be down and not up.

"Not as many americans have been dying in Middle East! Deaths are actually down in Iraq and Afghanistan."
One American is too many for me. You know a helicopter crashed in Afghanistan killing 13 soldiers yesterday, is it me or is joining the army more deadly than fighting a war?

Severe weather caused that chopper crash and not friendly or enemy fire. My statement still holds. Accidents do happen. No machine is perfect. Crossing the street is just as dangerous. And casualties are still down in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Israel is trying to defend itself, albeit in poor taste, but can't blame them."
Honestly, just saying. If I had my way the PLO would be blown off the face of the earth. Terrorism in a country is an internal affair and the killing of civilians is always wrong.

Just how would you blow the PLO off the face of the Earth? Palestine ain't a country so you can't really attack them.

"I never trusted Putin and this doesn't surprise me."
Did anyone?

Nope!

"Germany wants the wall back? Proof please!"
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050326/2005-03-26T132941Z_01_L26474730_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-GERMANY-WALL-DC.html
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050326/wl_nm/germany_wall_dc
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-03-26-wall-poll_x.htm?csp=34
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=615448
Four credible news sources, just because you missed it doesn't mean it isn't true.[/quote]

Well excuse me. I do have more important news stories to follow than German internal affairs. Besides, it wasn't on CNN, MSNBC, or Fox News.

"As for the French, that is what happens when your healthcare system collapses, btw: state runned to boot."
ROFL you sure are something else. It is their geographic location that caused this, not healthcare. The problem is last summer there was a massive heatwave in France, a nation with very very few air-conditioners. This led to many people dying of heat stroke because they went along in their normal day and didn't head to the new dangers of heat. Get your facts right before you blame something.

No kidding. But if they had a better healthcare system, they wouldn't have lost 10,000 people who were mostly elderly. I know full well the causes of those deaths. The Healthcare system did collapse because of all of the cases being brought in and they couldn't handle it. If a system can't handle something it'll collapse.

"Tanks deployed? Yea water tanks unless you have proof that says otherwise."
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118867
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00161.htm

I'll look at these when I get done with my classes.

"Yes I know the world isn't coming to an end."
If you are a religious Christian man, think that statement over....

I did, it ain't coming to an end. The signs aren't there now I'm going to be late for class

tanks are deployed to anti-Bush protest
You really shouold have read all the comments for the indymedia bit.





Citizen

I wasn't there at the Tuesday night demonstration in Westwood, but I did do some follow-up investigation this morning about the two armored vehicles.

Turns out the West Los Angeles Veterans Administration was having a Veterans Day parade and celebration this morning (Wednesday). I drove over and walked in to the WLA VA to look around at 10:50am.

Lots of marching middle school ROTC "cadets" (including 11-to-14-year-old boys and girls from Mt. Vernon Middle School all in US Army uniform, some shouldering parade "rifles") and a high school band and antique cars filled with VAFW members. And two USMC Striker armored vehicles complete with 6 or 7 Marines in fatigues and body armor giving junior high ROTC kids and adults tours of the vehicles.

I talked to one Marine with one of the "Striker" vehicles. He told me they had driven the vehicles up from Camp Pendleton the night before (Tuesday) on the freeway. Getting off the 405 Freeway North taking the Wilshire East (instead of WEST to the VA) offramp, they would have passed Wilshire and Veteran where the anti-war rally was underway protesting the attack on Fallujah in Iraq.

I asked him if he was "rolling around Westwood" Tuesday night. He said, "Yeah, and we drove past that anti-war demonstration. We was lost. We're not from L.A. We didn't know where this place (WLA VA) was. We were trying to find it."

"Did you drive around the block twice?" I asked.

"Yeah, we did. We stopped to ask them (the protestors) directions, but they weren't very nice."

There was more conversation, but that was the gist of it from the Marine side concerning the armored vehicles. For what it's worth.

I've also been receiving emails from friends who were at the rally who tell me the LAPD officers said they had no idea why the Striker armored vehicles had shown up.

Author: Steve
Link:
Posted: Monday November 08, 2004 08:00 PM


LA VA Parade details

Wednesday
Nov 10
10:00 a.m.-
12:00p.m.
VA Greater Los Angeles Veterans Day
Parade
VA West Los Angeles
For Info call (310) 478-
3711
VA West Los Angeles
11301 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA
Hospital Line

Author: Xmas
Link:
Posted: Wednesday November 10, 2004 09:47 AM


You really need to fact-check.

I think the whole Delay thing is a bit of press fueled and aided revenge for the Dems. All politicians are corrupt, all politicians have broken the rules and cheated. The press just selects who they wish to hurt and whose dirty laundry they will ignore.
But some are more corrupt than others...

Economic stuff. Ethics violations which most representatives and senators are guilty of.
Is this a reason not to go after DeLay? No. Just because others do it, doesn't mean that it's OK. Who better to make an example of in order to warn the others?

I know it is not perfect and will meet with some conservative backlash, but I did enjoy reading:

In praise of liberals (http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/opinion/9512249.htm)

Liberals will "give up", once all the conservatives have been "converted". :eek:

I find it utterly ridiculous that Jackson and Schiavo got so much media attention.

One kid who's been in a coma for 15 years and'll never wake up is dead. Big f***ing deal. What about the 1,500 American servicemen who died in Iraq? What about the 1,3 billion people in the world who can't have a glass of water every day? What about all the starvation, sickness, and poverty in the world?

I swear, if I was there and saw those protesters sit there and weep, I'd walk over to them and kick them in the boobs and balls for being so goddamned narrow-minded. Do they cry every time the media shows a starving village with children with bloated bellies? Did they cry when Red China massacred 400 students in 1989?

Now that Schiavo is finally gone, will they prove that they want to save human lives by volunteering at the local soup kitchen and animal shelter or donate money to Amnesty International or some medical group? Will they volunteer as organ donors? Will they give blood?

Fat chance.

Perspective, you weeping pricks, perspective! :headbang: I'll take them seriously when they move to Africa and sit outside of a famine-stricken village crying their crocodile tears.

I find it utterly ridiculous that Jackson and Schiavo got so much media attention.

One kid who's been in a coma for 15 years and'll never wake up is dead. Big f***ing deal. What about the 1,500 American servicemen who died in Iraq? What about the 1,3 billion people in the world who can't have a glass of water every day? What about all the starvation, sickness, and poverty in the world?

I swear, if I was there and saw those protesters sit there and weep, I'd walk over to them and kick them in the boobs and balls for being so goddamned narrow-minded. Do they cry every time the media shows a starving village with children with bloated bellies? Did they cry when Red China massacred 400 students in 1989?

Now that Schiavo is finally gone, will they prove that they want to save human lives by volunteering at the local soup kitchen and animal shelter or donate money to Amnesty International or some medical group? Will they volunteer as organ donors? Will they give blood?

Fat chance.

Perspective, you weeping pricks, perspective! :headbang: I'll take them seriously when they move to Africa and sit outside of a famine-stricken village crying their crocodile tears.


*Clap* *Clap* *Clap*
this is exactly what i said on 9/11 its all about very skewed perspective.

I gotta congratulate Facist Emerica. why? Mainly because they have produced one questionable article in one post in this whole thread and produced six pages of "my sides better than your side". Gold pure gold

But some are more corrupt than others...

No arguement there

Is this a reason not to go after DeLay? No. Just because others do it, doesn't mean that it's OK. Who better to make an example of in order to warn the others?

I thought they made and example of this when Congress Expelled that Ohio Congressman. Anyway, this is all about trip money or something. Senator Boxer of CA did the samething and yet you don't see anyone going after her for it. I guess its ok for a liberal to do so but not for a conservative (if Delay is even a conservative.)

I thought they made and example of this when Congress Expelled that Ohio Congressman. Anyway, this is all about trip money or something. Senator Boxer of CA did the samething and yet you don't see anyone going after her for it. I guess its ok for a liberal to do so but not for a conservative (if Delay is even a conservative.)
Sounds like more examples need to be made! Maybe people haven't gone after Boxer so much because she's in the minority party? DeLay has the power, people are going to be watching him. Not that I would object to any disciplinary action against Boxer.

You mean this Tom Delay?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4418305.stm

You know.. the one who pays his family members grotesque amounts of money for doing nothing? Hate to break it to ya buddy, I suspect that he may not be the paragon of virtue you paint him as.

And since when did dissent become a bad thing? Your post seems to argue that "liberals" should just.. leave all pubbies alone. This phrase.. "partisan" That's what politics is all about! Fool! If you think winning an election somehow gives a party the right to do what it likes without opposition or criticism, without dissent.. then you really don't understand what democracy is all about. But I guess I can't blame you. It seems half of the GOP doesn't understand what democracy is about either.

What's wrong with providing for your family?

What's wrong with providing for your family?
...in an illegal fashion?

What's wrong with providing for your family?
theres providing for your family and then theres paying $500,000 for 2 employees with government money that just HAPPEN to be your wife and daughter, please tell me you can see the difference

Sounds like more examples need to be made! Maybe people haven't gone after Boxer so much because she's in the minority party? DeLay has the power, people are going to be watching him. Not that I would object to any disciplinary action against Boxer.

I think the Senate and House need to investigate all their members and take displinary action against those that violate their own ethic rules. There is more of this going on that isn't being reported. I say its time to weed out the Congress and throw out those that violate their own rules.

I think the Senate and House need to investigate all their members and take displinary action against those that violate their own ethic rules. There is more of this going on that isn't being reported. I say its time to weed out the Congress and throw out those that violate their own rules.
I agree, kill corruption!

When will fascists finally just give up?

When will fascists finally just give up?

The fascists will give up on March 12th, 2012. It will be a stirring ceremony with many jack booted thugs marching through the streets, heads turned at a perfect 45 degree angle and arms raised in a power salute. After giving up the will retire to Winniepeg and grow wheat. Fields of endless wheat and do a little curling in the winter.