NationStates Jolt Archive

It's not that i dont like him or anything but i find the catholic worship of him strange.

I view the laws of god as they were taught to me and the 10 commandments were handed (as much as is posible) directly to man from god. to me that means that they are the most important to him or there would have been 50 commandments.

the first 2 state:-

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

as per the new american standard version http://www.bible.com/bible/B10coman.html

So why, when it is the first and seconf law of god do you ignore it and not only worship the Pope but erect statues of him?

This is against the first 2 commandments. Dont you even consider that you can go to hell for this?

So why, when it is the first and seconf law of god do you ignore it and not only worship the Pope but erect statues of him?

Because we don't know what God looks like :p

I'm protestant myself, and I still hold the Pope high up in my list of important people. Constructing statues of him isn't that big a deal, we make statues of everyone nowadays. Movie stars, Walt Disney, Mickey Mouse, you get the jist of it. Anyways, its not something to fret over. The Pope was the most religious man till he passed away of course. I think God can forgive us for that, I mean after all, he is supposed to forgive us for all our sins, right?

It's not worship at all. God is especially associated with the Pope, as the Pope was a man of God. However, do not confuse reverrance with worshiip. That is what many non-Catholics like to mispercieve about the Virgin Mary. Even I was sometimes tempted to believe this. Yet she is merely respected, and not a focal point of worship.

Because we do not worship the Pope as a God. It is really that simple. Anyone who claims Catholics' reverance for the Pope or any of the saints violates the first two commandments is simply ignorant of Catholicism.

I'm not Catholic, however I'm pretty sure it works like this: the Pope is basically God's messenger on Earth, who the people look to for the interpretation of God's will.

*smack*

They don't worship the Pope

*smack*

They don't worship the Pope

*smack*

They don't worship the Pope...

People dont 'worship' the Pope as such.

They respect him a great deal. He has been described by many as a 'father' who guides them to do Gods will. He is supposedly God's messenger on earth - to them, this will be the closest they will get to God.

They respect him a great deal. He has been described by many as a 'father' who guides them to do Gods will. He is supposedly God's messenger on earth - to them, this will be the closest they will get to God.

Again i give you :- You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

There are liknesses of him in many many countries and the million people+ going to see him are worshiping a false idol!

I'm not Catholic, however I'm pretty sure it works like this: the Pope is basically God's messenger on Earth, who the people look to for the interpretation of God's will.

Fine, he's a prophet. still see commandment 2 above.

Because we do not worship the Pope as a God. It is really that simple. Anyone who claims Catholics' reverance for the Pope or any of the saints violates the first two commandments is simply ignorant of Catholicism.

But he's worshiped and has statues erected in his name.

Why do you all find it SO easy to dismiss the first 2 commandments?

The Pope was a good man, a religious man but the 10 commandments were handed down by GOD Himself. If you believe in the bible and in God, how can you dissobey the first 2 to easily?

The Pope was the most religious man till he passed away of course. I think God can forgive us for that, I mean after all, he is supposed to forgive us for all our sins, right?

But you have controvened one of the commandments. God only forgives i fyou repent. I see very few repentant catholics right now.

eh, how to explain this

you know how some people view washington as the embodyment of democracy yet belive democracy is still somewhat different from his actions

thats kinda how Catholics see the Pope; the embodyment of service to God and faithful living yet still not God

Catholics do not worship the pope. They simply pay him their greatest respect, which you seem to have misinterpreted as worship.

But he's worshiped and has statues erected in his name.

Why do you all find it SO easy to dismiss the first 2 commandments?

The Pope was a good man, a religious man but the 10 commandments were handed down by GOD Himself. If you believe in the bible and in God, how can you dissobey the first 2 to easily?

Again, you show your callous ignorance for the Catholic faith. We do NOT worship him. We respect him greatly.

Here is a answer to the Catholics' view of Mary.

http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/merton.php

The glory of Mary is purely and simply the glory of God in her. and she, like anyone else, can say that she has nothing that she has not received from Him through Christ.

Catholics do not "worship" the Pope. Note that we also call him Holy Father. He is our "father" who guides us and teaches us in God's ways. Therefore, he is given the love and respect of a father.

Catholics do not worship statues (idols). Statues of Mary, saints, Jesus, and the Pope are reminders of them to us. Much like you have pictures of loved ones hanging in your home, in your wallet, and on your computer. They are not believed to be imbued with anything from the person they represent other than their physical likeness.

If you would take the time to read some of the articles on www.catholic.org you would have a better understanding of the origins of the church's customs and would not jump to critical and inaccurate conclusions.

Again i give you :- You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

There are liknesses of him in many many countries and the million people+ going to see him are worshiping a false idol!



Fine, he's a prophet. still see commandment 2 above.



But he's worshiped and has statues erected in his name.

Why do you all find it SO easy to dismiss the first 2 commandments?

The Pope was a good man, a religious man but the 10 commandments were handed down by GOD Himself. If you believe in the bible and in God, how can you dissobey the first 2 to easily?



But you have controvened one of the commandments. God only forgives i fyou repent. I see very few repentant catholics right now.


Your sure you don't have anything against the Pope? Isn't it another commandment or something of the like

Do not Judge

The Reformation is so half a century ago.

Jeez ingorances of the Catholic faiths amazes me. Don't you people ever go to Mass or at least talk to a real Catholic? I mean jeez, yall just ASSUME that we whorship the Pope, and I think we all know what happens when you ASSUME.

1. We do NOT, I repeat do NOT whorship the Pope

2. We believe that Saint Peter (one of Jesus apostle) was the 2nd founder of our religion, right after Jesus.

3. We also believe that any Pope that the Vatican elect has spiritual connection to Saint Peter.

4. Whats the big deal about making statues? We made tons of statue of Presidents, famous people, and other stuff. We do NOT whorship these statues. The reason we have them in our church is to think about them and the contribution they have made to the Catholic faith as we say our prayers.

5. We REVERED and RESPECT the Pope, the same goes to Mary, and the saints. We ONLY whorship God, and Jesus Christ.

6. Do some reasearch next time, I am getting sick and tired of everyone making ingorant statement like this. I live in the Baptist Bible Belt and I get it all the time.

Catholics do not "worship" the Pope. Note that we also call him Holy Father. He is our "father" who guides us and teaches us in God's ways. Therefore, he is given the love and respect of a father.

I'm neither Christian nor do i agree necessarily with the person who started this post, but this quote confuses me. I was always led to believe that God was 'the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost' ? Doesn't that mean that if you call the Pope the Holy Father you're directly calling him God? :confused:
I'd never heard of his being calle Holy Father till i read your post :/

4. Whats the big deal about making statues? We made tons of statue of Presidents, famous people, and other stuff. We do NOT whorship these statues. The reason we have them in our church is to think about them and the contribution they have made to the Catholic faith as we say our prayers.


gotta keep that history

my pagan protestant friends often ask me why our Churches are so ornate - the vatican isn't responsible for how the Church looks, the people of the parish are and they usually want it to look like thats why people in Europe took centuries to build their Churches

I'm neither Christian nor do i agree necessarily with the person who started this post, but this quote confuses me. I was always led to believe that God was 'the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost' ? Doesn't that mean that if you call the Pope the Holy Father you're directly calling him God? :confused:
I'd never heard of his being calle Holy Father till i read your post :/

we call even our parish priests "Father", but we don't mean the same thing - its kinda like the president of the US and the president of sales marketing at the pezz factory

geez cat woman, youre such a protestant

geez cat woman, youre such a protestant
Hey watch it! I'm protestant also!

:p

OK, perhaps i must make this clearer.

the 2nd comandment states:-

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Catholics have erected these likenesses everywhere and now there will be more, i'm sure.

Your faith will have erected a "likeness" to an idol.

This is the 2nd law of god.

Dont any of you fear going to hell for this? I learnt religion, i know what catholicism expects but you openly flout the 1st and 2nd commandments!!!

You dont think a god that says "You shall have no other gods before Me." and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Isnt going to be pissed come judgement day

How can you justify breaking the 2 first, therefore most important, laws!

All I want is for people to do some reasearch before making ingorant statement, is that so hard to do people?

OK, perhaps i must make this clearer.

the 2nd comandment states:-

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Catholics have erected these likenesses everywhere and now there will be more, i'm sure.

Your faith will have erected a "likeness" to an idol.

This is the 2nd law of god.

Dont any of you fear going to hell for this? I learnt religion, i know what catholicism expects but you openly flout the 1st and 2nd commandments!!!

You dont think a god that says "You shall have no other gods before Me." and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Isnt going to be pissed come judgement day

How can you justify breaking the 2 first, therefore most important, laws!


I think the rest of us have uh...covered this part. With many points might I add. You just keep saying the same stuff.

It's not that i dont like him or anything but i find the catholic worship of him strange.

I view the laws of god as they were taught to me and the 10 commandments were handed (as much as is posible) directly to man from god. to me that means that they are the most important to him or there would have been 50 commandments.

the first 2 state:-

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

as per the new american standard version http://www.bible.com/bible/B10coman.html

So why, when it is the first and seconf law of god do you ignore it and not only worship the Pope but erect statues of him?

This is against the first 2 commandments. Dont you even consider that you can go to hell for this?


Well, this dosen't just go for the pope. Many, many christians I have talked to speak much of jesus but never of god. I think this would violate the first two as well. Now, as I understand, god, jc and the holy spirit are the same. Wouldn't this violate monotheism? It just dosen't make sence.

OK, perhaps i must make this clearer.

the 2nd comandment states:-

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Catholics have erected these likenesses everywhere and now there will be more, i'm sure.

Your faith will have erected a "likeness" to an idol.

This is the 2nd law of god.

Dont any of you fear going to hell for this? I learnt religion, i know what catholicism expects but you openly flout the 1st and 2nd commandments!!!

You dont think a god that says "You shall have no other gods before Me." and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Isnt going to be pissed come judgement day

How can you justify breaking the 2 first, therefore most important, laws!

You're right. All statues are false idols. We're all going to hell.

You dont think a god that says "You shall have no other gods before Me." and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Isnt going to be pissed come judgement day

How can you justify breaking the 2 first, therefore most important, laws!

which gods are we holding above the big guy?

OK, perhaps i must make this clearer.

the 2nd comandment states:-

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Catholics have erected these likenesses everywhere and now there will be more, i'm sure.

Your faith will have erected a "likeness" to an idol.

This is the 2nd law of god.

Dont any of you fear going to hell for this? I learnt religion, i know what catholicism expects but you openly flout the 1st and 2nd commandments!!!

You dont think a god that says "You shall have no other gods before Me." and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Isnt going to be pissed come judgement day

How can you justify breaking the 2 first, therefore most important, laws!


*sigh* Ok lets go over this AGAIN

1. We do not consider the Pope, Saints, or Mary God's. NO WHERE in the Church's doctrine or teachings said that.

2. By your statement, we shouldn't have statue of Washington, our President, or anyone except for Jesus Christ. How come you are not attacking the people that makes statue of famous and important people in history?

3. I think you got some personal problems with the church, or some personal adgenda, but all your really doing is making yourself look stupid and pissing me off.

OK, perhaps i must make this clearer.

the 2nd comandment states:-

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Catholics have erected these likenesses everywhere and now there will be more, i'm sure.

Your faith will have erected a "likeness" to an idol.

This is the 2nd law of god.

Dont any of you fear going to hell for this? I learnt religion, i know what catholicism expects but you openly flout the 1st and 2nd commandments!!!

You dont think a god that says "You shall have no other gods before Me." and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Isnt going to be pissed come judgement day

How can you justify breaking the 2 first, therefore most important, laws!
so you have no art, no representational paintings? no sculpture? no photographs? you refused to get a photo on your drivers license because its against your religion? you dont go to the movies for the same reason?

statues are STATUES. people of all faiths have made them over the years.

the pope is not a god as has been said many times here. so there is no violation of the 1st commandment.

Do some reasearch next time, I am getting sick and tired of everyone making ingorant statement like this. I live in the Baptist Bible Belt and I get it all the time.

You think you have it rough. I live in the Bible Belt, too, plus I'm married to a Pentecostal. We can't discuss religion in our home and maintain our marriage. I've been left horrified by the misconceptions that he has.

I'm neither Christian nor do i agree necessarily with the person who started this post, but this quote confuses me. I was always led to believe that God was 'the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost' ? Doesn't that mean that if you call the Pope the Holy Father you're directly calling him God?
I'd never heard of his being calle Holy Father till i read your post :/

All priests in our religion are called "fathers". Not to be confused with "The Father". They are the father for their congregations as a man is the father in his family. The Pope is called the Holy Father as he is the father figure for all Catholics.

Well you say that we can't judge right? that's in the bible correct? so therefore we cannot judge who is and who is not in heaven. Only God knows this. While I would say that if the pope isn't in heaven we're all pretty screwed, I believe we should not be able to say one way or the other... we can pray that he is... but will not know until it is revealed to us. Another thing... Catholics do not worship but pray to "saints" now I suppose it's alright if you want to pray to Mary.. that's your choice.... but as stated earlier.. while they have the "canonization process" I don't think it's accurate in determining a person a saint... if God wants to work a miracle he will do so.. doesn't mean it was a result of praying to a saint... my point is.... why not skip the middleman? why not pray to God himself? ok.. I see one way you could argue against this... he isn't human, we want someone who we can relate to and knows what it's like... well that's what Jesus was for. Ok, so you want someone who has sinned as you have? well I suppose you got me there... I just want to point out that for all we know we could be praying to people in hell. While catholics say they don't worship statues as idols... today it shows signs of capitalism... selling "holy cards" and "sacred candles" "crucifixes" and other such things... while these are meant to be reminders.. I think some people will take them wrong and worship them, therefore I see a reason why God forbid these things, because certain people will not understand that they should not be worshiped... anyway that's all, i like this post so I might do it elsewhere too...... makes for good discussion.

Well if i were catholic, i'd expect to go to hell for this practice.

I have cathloci friends, coligues but no one has been able to explain how these commanments have been so openly flouted to my logical brains hapiness.

Most of it you can get away with but the number of statues erected of JPII contravene No 2 and the number of saints, popes and others worshiped seem to be false idols to me.

Please explain why you do not worship the pope when millions are heading to rome. Wouldnt Beathlehme be more fitting? At least God's son jesus was borne there.

Dont you think thqt your real father, God, would be pissed to hear your speak of the Pope, a mear man as the Father! God is the Father.

And no, you do not worship statues (you pray to them though) but, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

I always thought mary, the saints and the popes were "on the earth beneath", therefor not to have a "likeness" made of them.

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

All of christianity violates that principle, by worshipping Jesus.

It's not that i dont like him or anything but i find the catholic worship of him strange.

I view the laws of god as they were taught to me and the 10 commandments were handed (as much as is posible) directly to man from god. to me that means that they are the most important to him or there would have been 50 commandments.

the first 2 state:-

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

as per the new american standard version http://www.bible.com/bible/B10coman.html

So why, when it is the first and seconf law of god do you ignore it and not only worship the Pope but erect statues of him?

This is against the first 2 commandments. Dont you even consider that you can go to hell for this?

I'm going to give the standard Catholic line on this, and then add my own Protestant commentaries.

The answer to the first question is that Catholics do not worship the Pope. What they do think, however, is that when Jesus said "Upon this rock I shall build my church" in Matthew (IIRC, as it's been some time since I read up that part), what he was talking about as the "rock" was in fact Peter, which isn't so strange when you consider that Peter is derivative of the Latin petros, or stone. Peter then became the first Pope upon Jesus' death, and all Popes since carry the authority that Jesus invested Peter with: namely that whatever commandments Peter (and by extension later Popes) make on earth will be respected in Heaven. As such, they don't worship the Pope, but they do believe that through his dictums come the way to salvation.

Now, as a Lutheran, the official line we have is that no, the Catholics aren't worshipping the Pope. We do think the Papacy lost its spiritual authority when it turned away from God and towards earthly goods as its object of worship in the 15th century (what with practices like the sale of plenary indulgences), and that in the absence of a true Pope, spiritual authority becomes a matter of personal interest, but this is more or less beside the main point.

Now, as for the second part, or the section about the graven images commandment, this is a matter of long-standing contention in the Church as to whether things like crucifixes constitute graven images. In fact, the original split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church was over this very point; the RC's said no they weren't, and the EO's said yes they were. However, what you are reading is the Jewish translation, which is the version used by Protestants. The Septuagint is the version of the Old Testament that is accepted as legitemate by Roman Catholics, and that version has no graven images prohibition; instead it deletes it and splits the covetous commandment into two seperate commandments. Which one you prefer depends greatly upon which denomination you are: If you are Jewish or Protestant, you probably take your translation. If you are RC, you accept the Septuagint. Both have good credentials as far as legitemacy: the Jewish version is older, but the Septuagint was supposed to be identically translated word-for-word accurate by 72 of the best Greek scholars of the day, which was taken as a miracle (and if it were true, it probably would be).

As a Lutheran, I accept the Jewish version rather than the Septuagint, but I recognize that this is more the simple result of Luther choosing that version as "canon", so to speak, 500 years ago than any official research on my part.

Well if i were catholic, i'd expect to go to hell for this practice.

I have cathloci friends, coligues but no one has been able to explain how these commanments have been so openly flouted to my logical brains hapiness.

Most of it you can get away with but the number of statues erected of JPII contravene No 2 and the number of saints, popes and others worshiped seem to be false idols to me.

Please explain why you do not worship the pope when millions are heading to rome. Wouldnt Beathlehme be more fitting? At least God's son jesus was borne there.

Dont you think thqt your real father, God, would be pissed to hear your speak of the Pope, a mear man as the Father! God is the Father.

And no, you do not worship statues (you pray to them though) but, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

I always thought mary, the saints and the popes were "on the earth beneath", therefor not to have a "likeness" made of them.

are you just skipping the explanations or are you refusing to believe what people are telling you over and over?

Well if i were catholic, i'd expect to go to hell for this practice.

I have cathloci friends, coligues but no one has been able to explain how these commanments have been so openly flouted to my logical brains hapiness.

Most of it you can get away with but the number of statues erected of JPII contravene No 2 and the number of saints, popes and others worshiped seem to be false idols to me.

Please explain why you do not worship the pope when millions are heading to rome. Wouldnt Beathlehme be more fitting? At least God's son jesus was borne there.

Dont you think thqt your real father, God, would be pissed to hear your speak of the Pope, a mear man as the Father! God is the Father.

And no, you do not worship statues (you pray to them though) but, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

I always thought mary, the saints and the popes were "on the earth beneath", therefor not to have a "likeness" made of them.

This has been explained fully to you, but you choose to either not understand or ignore what you have been told. I have even supplied you a link to the Catholic site that will explain just about any questions you have, or correct any misconceptions you obviously have.

The man who impregnated your mother with you...is he your father or "the sperm donor"? Do you have any pictures of loved ones? Do you have a picture of any loved ones that are dead? Do you eat at a fast food restaurant that has a clown on top? Do you pray before you eat in that restaurant? Do you have a sculpture of a school of dolphins jumping into the air? Have you seen the movie Jaws? Have you ever looked at yourself in a mirror?

Well if i were catholic, i'd expect to go to hell for this practice.

Well thank Goodness your not Catholic then....



I have cathloci friends, coligues but no one has been able to explain how these commanments have been so openly flouted to my logical brains hapiness.

Because we have not openly flouted them.


Most of it you can get away with but the number of statues erected of JPII contravene No 2 and the number of saints, popes and others worshiped seem to be false idols to me.

Once again you only attack the statues that the Church has made, I am now convience you have a personal vetta agaisnt the Church. Once again we do NOT Whorship the Pope or Saints.


Please explain why you do not worship the pope when millions are heading to rome. Wouldnt Beathlehme be more fitting? At least God's son jesus was borne there.


Why do peope go to Disney World, why do people go to Washington DC, why do people go to Daytona, your logic makes no sense. Catholic goes to the VATICAN (Rome is not part of the Vatican, the Vatican is techinally its own country) because its wheres the head of our religion has been for thousands of year. You assume that Catholics just go to the Vatican, and not to Bethlehelm. I know at least 10 Catholics that has been to both places. Beside, Beathlehem isn't exactly a tourist attraction right now, what with the Iseralities fighting the Paliestianeins.


Dont you think thqt your real father, God, would be pissed to hear your speak of the Pope, a mear man as the Father! God is the Father.


Do you call your biological dad father? If you say no, then you are lying. Why should we not speak of the Pope? Pope John Paul the II has done great work during his life here on earth. He has promoted peace, brought down the Soviet powers in Eastern Europe, and he brought Christianity, Judiasm, and Islams closer together. I think you are jealous of the Pope, that why you made this post.


And no, you do not worship statues (you pray to them though) but, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.


Ah to have a hammer right about now, we do not WHOORSHIP, the statues, I personally only pray to Jesus and God. Personally I think the only reason we have saints around is that they are people who has dedicated themselves to the church, they have done God's work, and they have kept the word of Jesus close to their hearts. The saints are people who strived to be like Jesus. We should all strive to be like Jesus.


I always thought mary, the saints and the popes were "on the earth beneath", therefor not to have a "likeness" made of them.
[/quote]

By your statement, we shouldn't have any statues, painting, pictures, or films. 'nuff said.

Saints are merely role models for the rest of us. Such is true with the Pope, bishops, archbishops, priests, nuns, monks and even each other. We look to them for a model of a lifestyle that we wish to embody in our own lives. It is not worship, but respect.

That is all.

I hope you realize, and understand what I am saying.

I have a question for you Toujours-Rouge. Do you ever wear a crucifix? Is it made of gold, or silver, or something other than wood? If you do, then it is not made like the true crucifix and is merely a vane decoration of your chest.

Well if i were catholic, i'd expect to go to hell for this practice.

No you wouldn't. If you were Catholic you would have years of instructrion and study and you would know how statues are considered.

erect statues of him
Ooh, Catholicism is kinky!

I bet that brings a new meaning to 'rock-hard'.

:D

That is what many non-Catholics like to mispercieve about the Virgin Mary. Even I was sometimes tempted to believe this. Yet she is merely respected, and not a focal point of worship.

I lived in a convent for 4 years. It was worship. We had processions around the church with a Statue of Mary on a platform, then we'd have ceremonies to crown her May Queen. Then, the crowned statue would be left in the chapel for days so that we could adore her.

I really felt it was worship. The Mary issue is one of the reasons why I left the convent.

The man who impregnated your mother with you...is he your father or "the sperm donor"? Do you have any pictures of loved ones? Do you have a picture of any loved ones that are dead? Do you eat at a fast food restaurant that has a clown on top? Do you pray before you eat in that restaurant? Do you have a sculpture of a school of dolphins jumping into the air? Have you seen the movie Jaws? Have you ever looked at yourself in a mirror?

I dont prey in front of the clown though, well, not unless i'm really really hungry! I believe "creating a likeness" refers to sculpture, not photographs).

And he's Dad. Bioligical father, not The Father.

By your statement, we shouldn't have any statues, painting, pictures, or films. 'nuff said.

No, you can do this to anyone you dont idolise, worship or in otherways put before God.

Ah to have a hammer right about now, we do not WHOORSHIP, the statues, I personally only pray to Jesus and God. Personally I think the only reason we have saints around is that they are people who has dedicated themselves to the church, they have done God's work, and they have kept the word of Jesus close to their hearts. The saints are people who strived to be like Jesus. We should all strive to be like Jesus.

Well good for you. But in many of the irish books i have rea, people pray to the patron saints of this that or the other. St Jude (patron saint of lost causes) is a popular one in irish catholic literature.

Why do peope go to Disney World, why do people go to Washington DC, why do people go to Daytona, your logic makes no sense. Catholic goes to the VATICAN (Rome is not part of the Vatican, the Vatican is techinally its own country) because its wheres the head of our religion has been for thousands of year. You assume that Catholics just go to the Vatican, and not to Bethlehelm. I know at least 10 Catholics that has been to both places. Beside, Beathlehem isn't exactly a tourist attraction right now, what with the Iseralities fighting the Paliestianeins.

OK, so catholics flocked to disneyland when Walt died? To daytona when airton senna died? Get real. They are flocking to Rome (and yes i do know that Vatigan City is it's own country which speaks lattin) because they like the sport there, ot the movies, or the rides?

Once again you only attack the statues that the Church has made, I am now convience you have a personal vetta agaisnt the Church. Once again we do NOT Whorship the Pope or Saints.

Then stop praying to saints and stop making "Images" of them.

I also have no vendetta against the chruch, any church but how can you say it's OK to erect images of JPII because we can take photographs now? Or that people idolise Britany or Christina.

That makes it OK? No. the commandment is clear. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Why do you people feel you can disregard this commandment my making and worshiping these images of JPII?

Because we have not openly flouted them.

But his statues are all over the world in catholic countries. How is that not flouting the 2nd commandment?

Well thank Goodness your not Catholic then....

Well yes, any god that petty i would not be interested in spending eternity with. Still it's his law, you are his followers, you should obey it. I'm going to hell so i dont care. You? Well, maybe you are too.

Saints are merely role models for the rest of us. Such is true with the Pope, bishops, archbishops, priests, nuns, monks and even each other. We look to them for a model of a lifestyle that we wish to embody in our own lives. It is not worship, but respect.

This is fine, until you pray to the saints, errect statues to the popes and basically flout commandments 1 and 2.

(PS, jesus never wanted praise, gratitude or thanks. If statues were erected for him, it's possibly another false idol in God's eyes but probably one God might forgive)

It's not that i dont like him or anything but i find the catholic worship of him strange.

I view the laws of god as they were taught to me and the 10 commandments were handed (as much as is posible) directly to man from god. to me that means that they are the most important to him or there would have been 50 commandments.

the first 2 state:-

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

as per the new american standard version http://www.bible.com/bible/B10coman.html

So why, when it is the first and seconf law of god do you ignore it and not only worship the Pope but erect statues of him?

This is against the first 2 commandments. Dont you even consider that you can go to hell for this?

Maybe the Pope is God in diguise? ROTFLOL! I honestly don't know. I think he is a figuire to hold where they have no other figuire. Jesus kind of physically died and God isn't physically here on Earth.

I lived in a convent for 4 years. It was worship. We had processions around the church with a Statue of Mary on a platform, then we'd have ceremonies to crown her May Queen. Then, the crowned statue would be left in the chapel for days so that we could adore her.

I really felt it was worship. The Mary issue is one of the reasons why I left the convent.
They can be a little more conservative than most churches, of course. However, we have made progress away from making Mary a deity since Vatican II.
As for my feelings, I will say this: Mary is special, but no more so than Paul or Peter. She should not be the subject of the rosary, two months, nor all of the prayers that we give her. The hail Mary prayer is fine, but we can't allow ourselves to go overboard.

Your error in thinking has been explained to you over and over. You still persist in ignoring the answer and making up your own version of Catholic teachings. You also deem to know who will and will not achieve Heaven. You also seem ordained to judge people based on your ideals. Hmmmm....

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. -Matthew 7:1-5

Your error in thinking has been explained to you over and over. You still persist in ignoring the answer and making up your own version of Catholic teachings. You also deem to know who will and will not achieve Heaven. You also seem ordained to judge people based on your ideals. Hmmmm....

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. -Matthew 7:1-5


A fitting reply. I can only pray that the host of this thread realizes the truth in the long run, the truth being that we do not worship any other than God.

tell you what, you curse catholics, and tell them they'll go to hell. Meanwhile us Catholics will wait to see what God thinks about this all. I think we made the right bet.

This post is unofficial.

I ask everyone in this topic to remain civil, particularly my brothers and sisters in Christ. Remember that your conduct reflects on us all.

There is a quote from a letter by Saint Paul about what love is and is not. Love is patient. I'm too tired to dig up the quote, but the Vatican website (http://www.vatican.va) probably has it.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

This post is unofficial.

I ask everyone in this topic to remain civil, particularly my brothers and sisters in Christ. Remember that your conduct reflects on us all.

There is a quote from a letter by Saint Paul about what love is and is not. Love is patient. I'm too tired to dig up the quote, but the Vatican website (http://www.vatican.va) probably has it.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

You're Catholic?

You're Catholic?
Yes.

To reiterate: Feminist Cat Women is either honestly confused or deliberately baiting us (like the pharisees baited Christ). Either way, I don't think that derision is the proper response.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Yes.

To reiterate: Feminist Cat Women is either honestly confused or deliberately baiting us (like the pharisees baited Christ). Either way, I don't think that derision is the proper response.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Hmm. Never knew that.

OK, perhaps i must make this clearer.

the 2nd comandment states:-

You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

Catholics have erected these likenesses everywhere and now there will be more, i'm sure.

Your faith will have erected a "likeness" to an idol.

This is the 2nd law of god.

Dont any of you fear going to hell for this? I learnt religion, i know what catholicism expects but you openly flout the 1st and 2nd commandments!!!

You dont think a god that says "You shall have no other gods before Me." and "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." Isnt going to be pissed come judgement day

How can you justify breaking the 2 first, therefore most important, laws!

Well first off, all the commandments are equally important, except for “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:36-40 (NIV)

Now, in relation to the second of the ten commandments, you seem to be interpreting this too literally. Especially given the sheer number of Bible translations in English alone, it is easy to see how that mistake can be made. This commandment has been accepted by ALL the Christian community to mean that nothing is to be placed on par with God. Now I'm not Catholic, but even I can tell that the Church is not placing the Pope on the same level as God Himself, that would be unthinkable. The first two commandments concern idols. Why even after God gave Moses the commandments, he came down only to find the Hebrews praying and offering sacrifices to a golden calf, claiming it is their god. THAT is what the first and second commandments concern, my dear.

Also: Worship (n) - The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

Deity (n) - A god or goddess. The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity. any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force.

I don't exactly think the Pope is a god nor supernatural, do you?

You're Catholic?

I knew that.

All christians haved turned on the word of God(according to their own rules, too!)

Why?

For one, they worship Jesus Christ as well as God. Sure, you will say "But Jesus WAS God!". The bible says otherwise.

They make statues of people, thus elevating them to the level of a God(almost, at least). So they are, once again, worshiping someone else.

That's why I like the Muslims better than Christianity. At least Muslim's don't worship anyone besides God(they don't make statues of humans, Jesus wasn't a god, he was a prophet, etc. Oh, and Saddam was Atheist, not Muslim. That's why he built a statue of himself.)

For one, they worship Jesus Christ as well as God. Sure, you will say "But Jesus WAS God!", that's just an excuse.

Is not.

Is not.

Jesus was not God. Jesus was the son of God! God couldn't possibly be Jesus, for how could he be Jesus and run the universe at once? And why did Jesus always refer to God as his father, instead of just referring to himself?

Honestly, Feminist Cat Women, I think you have something against Catholics. You can just say it; a lot of Christians have problems with Catholics, have for years.

As a non-practicing Catholic with a stronly Catholic family, I can say there are different levels of worship. God recives the kind reserved for, well, God. Then Jesus, followed by the Saints and Mary.

This weird thing you have about statues just confuses me. Religious artwork has been around for a thousand years. I think if God had a problem with it we would have heard something about it by now.

Jesus was not God. Jesus was the son of God! God couldn't possibly be Jesus, for how could he be Jesus and run the universe at once? And why did Jesus always refer to God as his father, instead of just referring to himself?

Are you somehow implying that God would be incapable of running the universe and being Jesus, being an omnipotent, omnipresent deity as He is?

Are you somehow implying that God would be incapable of running the universe and being Jesus, being an omnipotent, omnipresent deity as He is?

He is an omnipresent deity, but he has one consciense! If he made humans in his Image, I don't think he has a million brains(or something like that).

Also see my second arguement. Why did Jesus refer to God as his father if he was supposedly God? Calling yourself father=creeeeeeeepy.

Are you somehow implying that God would be incapable of running the universe and being Jesus, being an omnipotent, omnipresent deity as He is?

I must agree, lol. Surely it would be no problem for an all-powerful being like God to not only take on multiple forms but still be able to run the universe.

Also, TLS: Jesus was not only fully God - He was also fully man, fully human. This is a vital aspect of the person of Christ. If He were not fully human, He could not have represented us on the cross. Also, He could not be the High Priest who comforts and strengthens us. As a man, He has gone through our human experience (Hebrews 2:16-18)

That and the whole Son of God concept exists to put the existance of Jesus into a form that our puny little brains can understand, lol.

I must agree, lol. Surely it would be no problem for an all-powerful being like God to not only take on multiple forms but still be able to run the universe.

Also, TLS: Jesus was not only fully God - He was also fully man, fully human. This is a vital aspect of the person of Christ. If He were not fully human, He could not have represented us on the cross. Also, He could not be the High Priest who comforts and strengthens us. As a man, He has gone through our human experience (Hebrews 2:16-18)

That is worshipping another figure! Since he was not 100% God, he is another deity, thus meaning you are worshiping two beings! Also, if Jesus was God, isn't it possible that he didn't really die on the cross? I mean, a omni-potent being wouldn't just sit there and die. In fact, if he was holy, he should have easily been able to fake his death and leave the Pagans to think they one; only to bring about their demise after returning three days later.

That and the whole Son of God concept exists to put the existance of Jesus into a form that our puny little brains can understand, lol.

?

All it does is confuse our "puny little brains".

Oh, and last I checked, Humans were the only living creatures(to our knowledge) who have created civilisation. We are also the only ones to have created religion. So our brains aren't that puny at all.

*Unless you compare them with something big. But that's cheating.

That is worshipping another figure! Since he was not 100% God, he is another deity, thus meaning you are worshiping two beings! Also, if Jesus was God, isn't it possible that he didn't really die on the cross? I mean, a omni-potent being wouldn't just sit there and die. In fact, if he was holy, he should have easily been able to fake his death and leave the Pagans to think they one; only to bring about their demise after returning three days later.

Noooooo....He is 100% God AND 100% Man, what part of that passage didn't you get? Jesus is God who is the Holy Spirit who is Jesus, ad infintum. And as far as His death on the cross, His mortal form, the 100% man, died, not his 100% God part.

It makes sense if you are Catholic.

If you are having trouble grasping the concept, look up Avatars in the Hindu religion...it's basically the same concept.

Noooooo....He is 100% God AND 100% Man, what part of that passage didn't you get? Jesus is God who is the Holy Spirit who is Jesus, ad infintum. And as far as His death on the cross, His mortal form, the 100% man, died, not his 100% God part.

No, but Jesus said he was the son of god! He said it himself!

His followers, however, said he was God, and thus corrupted his message. He never meant to make people think he was God, just that he was his messanger sent to Earth to spread the word of God, etc. It was his silly followers who said, "Well, he said he was the Son of God, but since he died on a cross, he must be god!"

None of the Bible was written by Jesus, so you can't know if what his followers say is what Jesus himself tought. People tend to exagerate the stories of powerful people.

but God spoke to them and told them what to write, that's been the binding concept for the validity of the Bible since ancient times.

It makes sense if you are Catholic.

If you are having trouble grasping the concept, look up Avatars in the Hindu religion...it's basically the same concept.

I know the concept, dammit!

Also, I was raised in a Catholic family(my mother is still trying to make me get communion. HA!) I have seen things that completely contradict the church(in Bangladesh the poor die of starvation and drowning, and even though the Vatican is worth god knows how many hundreds of billions of dollars, it doesn't donate a dime!), and I can't blindly follow it like you guys do. You guys may find it easy since you have *mostly* only been exposed to Catholicism(and probably Protestantism), but since I have traveled the world I have a harder time.

Blindly follow it?

Buddy, I am a non-practicing Catholic and consider myself an athiest, which is why I find my position on this ironic. I have, however, studied religion extensivly. Avatars. Same god, different form. The worship of God by paying homage to his son, Mary, and the saints.

Blindly follow it?

Buddy, I am a non-practicing Catholic and consider myself an athiest, which is why I find my position on this ironic. I have, however, studied religion extensivly. Avatars. Same god, different form. The worship of God by paying homage to his son, Mary, and the saints.

I said "You guys". Did I say "Kewwlona"? No.

I said "You guys". Did I say "Kewwlona"? No.

It was implied.

I can see why the whole three people being like, the same person thing might be confusing for people. But if you ask a hindu how many God's they have, they'll tell you one with many forms. So I guess Christianity is kinda like that. Anyway, back to the point, I don't feel the pope is being whorshiped, mearly he is being honored. He is a good person to look up to and an example of courage and faith. People need to honor people like the pope, especialy because honoring someone so close to God makes us feel somehow closer. That's my take on it.

I can see why the whole three people being like, the same person thing might be confusing for people. But if you ask a hindu how many God's they have, they'll tell you one with many forms. So I guess Christianity is kinda like that.

My point exactly. But yes, back to the topic at hand. And I really do believe that Feminist Cat Women has a problem with Catholics.

I can see why the whole three people being like, the same person thing might be confusing for people. But if you ask a hindu how many God's they have, they'll tell you one with many forms. So I guess Christianity is kinda like that. Anyway, back to the point, I don't feel the pope is being whorshiped, mearly he is being honored. He is a good person to look up to and an example of courage and faith. People need to honor people like the pope, especialy because honoring someone so close to God makes us feel somehow closer. That's my take on it.

?

So Christians are just like Pagans?

Iiiiiiinteresting........

?

So Christians are just like Pagans?

Iiiiiiinteresting........

How'd you get Pagans out of that?

?

So Christians are just like Pagans?

Iiiiiiinteresting........

No, Christianity has some conceptual simularities to Hinduism.

My point exactly. But yes, back to the topic at hand. And I really do believe that Feminist Cat Women has a problem with Catholics.

I agree.

I have nothing against Catholics(once again, my mother tried to raise me as one), but I just find all Christian beliefs to be at least a weeeeee bit unapealing to me.

How'd you get Pagans out of that?

According to Christianity, Hindus=Pagans.

Christianity doesn't think highly of other religions.

Yay for Islam, the religion that thinks moderatly well of everyone(and highly of Jews and Christians. Not as high as fellow Muslims, but pretty high).

I'm not Catholic, however I'm pretty sure it works like this: the Pope is basically God's messenger on Earth, who the people look to for the interpretation of God's will.

God speaks to us all threw prayer! He is not a direct descandent from God you can choose to beleive this bull, that is your decision. We are all equal in the kingdom of God i am no more important than the Pope( spiritually speaking) The catholic religion is a joke anyways. Micheal Jackson is probably catholic. No i am not researching this bull either this is of course my opinion so whatever....

TLS: Eh to each their own. Anyways, you're clogging up my inbox with the reply notifications, so I'm leaving this topic...for now at least.

No, but Jesus said he was the son of god! He said it himself!

True. However, He also said, "I and the Father are one." (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:25-30;&version=31;)

Also, it's worship, not "whorship." Sounds like you're connecting religion with prostitution.

I agree.

I have nothing against Catholics(once again, my mother tried to raise me as one), but I just find all Christian beliefs to be at least a weeeeee bit unapealing to me.

Fair enough.

this is dumb. the only reason that people are holding john paul II so high now is because he's dead. he's wasnt god's messenger and he wasnt working in the church's best interest. he defied such things things as the events of fatima, where the blessed virgin herself came down to pass on 3 messeges to the world. russia wasnt concecrated to her emaculate heart and the third secret was never released.

I’m a religious scholar and have read deeply into many religious readings and find this conversations very interesting. The meaning behind the first two commandment’s is simple don’t say one thing and mean another. If your a Christian be a Christian. Historically the other "Gods" were Zeus, Herra(sp?), and so on. With the fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of Christianity it was out with the old and in with the new. Got it so far? The pope is the head of Catholics the word of God. He is also looked up to and admired for all the work that he's done. The wrong part about all this would be if the pope had a religion and you decided that your Christian and wanted to go worship in the pope’s religion and then switch back. That is where you have broken the commandment. That at least is the idea. There has been a good deal of controversy and there is a lot of literature out there to read and understand. Remember I’m just a guy with an opinion I'm not looking to be flamed. I only wanted to add my two cents.

A lot of you need to pick yourselves up a Catechism; that way, you can read what the Church actually teaches instead of believing what those who hate the Church teaches and you might realize just how silly you've been being all this time.

I know where you might've gotten the idea that Catholics worship the Pope - you made it up. You couldn't consult one Catholic source that would tell you otherwise; because it's not true. In fact, I'll ask you to, simple for posteritys sake: give me one Catholic source to back any of your claims. I want a nice, black-and-white statement; don't twist words, and don't play games.

Basically, put up or shut up. Don't dictate to others what they believe (your own personal opinions have no power over Truth), and don't ask a stupid question just to ask a stupid question. You waste the precious time of others.

Just to humor myself, I'll answer your "charges":

1) Catholics don't worship the Pope; no where does it say that in any Catholic teaching (worship is reserved for God alone; you can look that up in the Catechism). The only place I can find anything like that would be with the hollow words of several self-absorbed "Bible ministers" who are too busy lying about the Church to actually take some time, sit down, and learn about it.

Right now, the viewing of the body of Pope John Paul II "The Great" is taking place in the Vatican city, and millions are showing up. Who would've thought otherwise? The man was a spiritual director for 1.2 billion people around the world; his children have simply come to pay their respects. I'm just going to assume you do the same thing with your dead relatives; lest you bury them in a burlap sack and toss 'em out back.

2) I assume you're talking about, stain-glass windows, and statues, and paintings. These are like pictures. Look at a picture of your mom; that's not actually your mom, but it reminds you of your mom. Look at a statue; that's not actually the Pope/Saint/whomever, but it reminds you of that Pope/Saint/whomever. To declare otherwise is quite stupid, no? Sort of like a Catholic asking a Fundamentalist why they persist in placing all authority with themselves...

Perhaps if they weren't so busy dictating to God what they will and will not believe, they'd realize they've got no authority, cast off their arrogance, and in humility to the actual authority come into the light of reason. I'll pray for your conversion.

Yes.

To reiterate: Feminist Cat Women is either honestly confused or deliberately baiting us (like the pharisees baited Christ). Either way, I don't think that derision is the proper response.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation


Excuse my ummm, outburst. Its just that I live in the Baptist Bible Belt in the United States, and since I make it known I am Catholic, I get comments like the starter of this thread has made ALL the time.

his children have simply come to pay their respects. I'm just going to assume you do the same thing with your dead relatives; lest you bury them in a burlap sack and toss 'em out back.I didn't think anyone saw me. :(

Ah; true that, German Kingdoms. True that.

:upyours:
His poisoning Africa with a ban on condoms and thus causing millions of AIDS victims qualifies him as a criminal. And that's just one of his feats. He should be loathed and condemned, not worshipped.

:upyours:
His poisoning Africa with a ban on condoms and thus causing millions of AIDS victims qualifies him as a criminal. And that's just one of his feats. He should be loathed and condemned, not worshipped.
Actually that was one of his Cardinals. I am a Catholic, but I do not agree with that Cardinal. And its the people having sex that is poisoning Africa, not the Pope.

:upyours:
His poisoning Africa with a ban on condoms and thus causing millions of AIDS victims qualifies him as a criminal. And that's just one of his feats. He should be loathed and condemned, not worshipped.

Well.. actually.. this is an intruiging point. Why is the Pope considered "good" while for instance Hitler was "evil" ? Both were responsible for a lot of unnessary suffering and death, both discriminated population groups based on their sexual preferences, both were in favour of brainwashing children, both invoked something higher than themselves as justification (God and Aryan Ubermensch) and both were convinced they are doing everything in their power to make the world a better place for their flock. And both of them also did lots of good things...

What is the difference ?

:upyours:
His poisoning Africa with a ban on condoms and thus causing millions of AIDS victims qualifies him as a criminal. And that's just one of his feats. He should be loathed and condemned, not worshipped.
Criminally irresponsible ha thats funny!
First of all well assume Africa is totally Catholic.
Which means it is 'governed' by the Vatican.

And if that is the case could it be fair to say the epidemic is caused or accelerated by not having a single life partner?
-If they are having multiple Partners(obviously against Catholic Doctrine) is it a surprise?

*So we give them Condoms right?

Which stops their ability to concieve.(Unless thats really your hidden agenda???)
Of course there are drugs to stop Aids from 'invading' the unborn child

But then there are Freedom Fighters/Rebels/Terrorists/Gangs/Whatever going about Raping villages etc which the Pope was against!

You dont need Condoms in a/ Catholic nation/nations to stop Aids you surely would need a bit of common sense?

I declare this whole thread retarded.

Well.. actually.. this is an intruiging point. Why is the Pope considered "good" while for instance Hitler was "evil" ? Both were responsible for a lot of unnessary suffering and death, both discriminated population groups based on their sexual preferences, both were in favour of brainwashing children, both invoked something higher than themselves as justification (God and Aryan Ubermensch) and both were convinced they are doing everything in their power to make the world a better place for their flock. And both of them also did lots of good things...

What is the difference ?

The difference is the pope never sent anyone to the gas chamber.

"Responsibility for suffering and death" The don't see the Pope grabbing an AK and forcing people to have sex without condoms. The point that the RC church was making is that people should ABSTAIN. It can be done, if people would stop trying to shout it down so much

Per "discrimination": The Catholic church believes that sexual preference is a conscious choice, and not subject to protections. Furthermore, nothing the church has done counts as "discrimination" except to some people who are good at playing the victim.

Hitler gassed homosexuals because he did indeed think that homosexuality was genetic, and wanted to eliminate it from the gene pool.

As for "brainwashing children", in the Pope's case what you refer to as "brainwashing children" is actually "raising them in the fear and admonition of the LORD", which used to be quite popular. In fact, you have the parents (who raised their children in fear and admonition of the Lord) to thank for the stability you see around you in society. Now that raising children in a Godly way has gone out of fashion, society will crumble.

Here is the one thing that many Roman Catholics would disagree with me on: Hitler and John Paul II were both sinners, who needed to ask for Christ's forgiveness. I believe that John Paul II did that, of course, and I do not believe that Hitler did. Although the option was open to him, as it is to the worst sinner.

To raise a different issue, aside from whether the Pope was 'good' or 'bad', how is it that in his illness, he was prayed for by so many people? Surely, he was in the most comfortable position possible - extensive medical treatment, a firm belief in life hereafter, a long successful life. The Pope has the blessing of being remembered by a vast community across the world. Why then does he need to be prayed for? If you are wise, you will reserve prayer for those who really need it...

It's not that i dont like him or anything but i find the catholic worship of him strange.

I view the laws of god as they were taught to me and the 10 commandments were handed (as much as is posible) directly to man from god. to me that means that they are the most important to him or there would have been 50 commandments.

the first 2 state:-

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.

2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

as per the new american standard version http://www.bible.com/bible/B10coman.html

So why, when it is the first and seconf law of god do you ignore it and not only worship the Pope but erect statues of him?

This is against the first 2 commandments. Dont you even consider that you can go to hell for this?

I'm sure someone has already pointed this out but we Catholics do not "worship" the pope any more than we "worship" the saints or Mary. Catholisism would not be Christian if we were Polytheistic.

To raise a different issue, aside from whether the Pope was 'good' or 'bad', how is it that in his illness, he was prayed for by so many people? Surely, he was in the most comfortable position possible - extensive medical treatment, a firm belief in life hereafter, a long successful life. The Pope has the blessing of being remembered by a vast community across the world. Why then does he need to be prayed for? If you are wise, you will reserve prayer for those who really need it...

Why must you "reserve" prayer? We don't have a quota for the max number of prayers and who or what should be the subject of our prayers. Most peoples' prayers are for themselves, friends and family, segments of society that each person believes most needs God's blessings, world ideals (peace, love, unity), and sometimes for natural occurrences (weather). I believe most of us also offer special prayers for those who are facing life struggles (death, divorce, illness, issues of faith, etc.). This is the nature of the prayers for Pope John Paul by the millions of people who loved him.

EDIT: A priest friend of mine once told me that you can model your life to be like a prayer. If we lead our lives in love of God and reflect His love to all of those around us, our lives are like never-ending prayers to God for mercy, reconciliation, and intervention.

I prayed for the Pope because he was a good man who did alot to promote peace along man and along religion. I prayed for him because I was thanking God and Jesus for sending us this wonderful man, and I was praying to Thank him for his work. That is why I prayed for Pope John Paul the II.

:upyours:
His poisoning Africa with a ban on condoms and thus causing millions of AIDS victims qualifies him as a criminal. And that's just one of his feats. He should be loathed and condemned, not worshipped.

Do you realize that in most places in Africa a single condom costs more then several days worth of food? That many governments still to this day deny that AIDS exists? That some of the ones that do officially state that the cure is to have unprotected sex with as young a virgin as possible? Are you truly delusional enough to believe that a Papal declaration of "thou shalt bag it" would even dent the AIDS epidemic? Are you truly delusional enough to believe that abstinence would NOT dent the AIDS epidemic?