NationStates Jolt Archive

What if Hitler did not invade Russia and they were still allies, could Hitler have won WWII?

i said other because he could have defeated a couple armies but pretty soon he'd try and take on the whole world and lose

i said other because he could have defeated a couple armies but pretty soon he'd try and take on the whole world and lose
All that during WWII?

Then I would be speaking German now... Wait, I sometimes do... Neeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuh!

Not really. One of the big reasons he invaded Russia when he did was because he needed more oil to fuel his war machine, and he wanted the vast oil fields in the Caucasuses. If he didn't invade Russia, he probably would have had to try and take the Middle East and Egypt from Great Britain, which he was incapable of doing prior. Had he done neither, he wouldn't have had the resources to continue his conquest of Europe. Perhaps, if the Soviet Union provided him with all the oil he could ever need, he might have been able to.

i said yes, but thinking about it, if russia had had enough time to build up its army, they would have probably invaded germnay themselves. Facism VS Communism and all that lark

Then I would be speaking German now... Wait, I sometimes do... Neeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuh!
NS would be in German :eek:

After the war in the Pacific was over and the US could devote all it's production and manpower to the European theater Hitler would be hard pressed to hold Europe. Slowly he'd be pushed back with the help of constant and brutal bombing day and night. Many more US, British, Canadian, etc. casualties would have been sustained and Europe would have been literally bombed into the stone age. Eventually I think hitler would have lost, but at a much higher cost in terms of European and American lives.

Not really. One of the big reasons he invaded Russia when he did was because he needed more oil to fuel his war machine, and he wanted the vast oil fields in the Caucasuses. If he didn't invade Russia, he probably would have had to try and take the Middle East and Egypt from Great Britain, which he was incapable of doing prior. Had he done neither, he wouldn't have had the resources to continue his conquest of Europe. Perhaps, if the Soviet Union provided him with all the oil he could ever need, he might have been able to.
I think might've been able to take Great Britain in 1941. It would have be difficult but he could have definitely managed it. That would have given Hitler way more options.

Not really. One of the big reasons he invaded Russia when he did was because he needed more oil to fuel his war machine, and he wanted the vast oil fields in the Caucasuses. If he didn't invade Russia, he probably would have had to try and take the Middle East and Egypt from Great Britain, which he was incapable of doing prior. Had he done neither, he wouldn't have had the resources to continue his conquest of Europe. Perhaps, if the Soviet Union provided him with all the oil he could ever need, he might have been able to.
he had all the oil he wanted from Romania, III rd producer of the world at that time. Stalin loved Hitler and would had given him also oil if Hitler only asked. Think that after WW 1 Germany was not aloud to make weapons... all the weapons Hitler had at the start were from USSR.

After the war in the Pacific was over and the US could devote all it's production and manpower to the European theater Hitler would be hard pressed to hold Europe. Slowly he'd be pushed back with the help of constant and brutal bombing day and night. Many more US, British, Canadian, etc. casualties would have been sustained and Europe would have been literally bombed into the stone age. Eventually I think hitler would have lost, but at a much higher cost in terms of European and American lives.Thats assuming that Britain would have continued against Germany. I personally think germany would have become the dominant economic and military force in Europe, with Britain being dependant on Germany. At that stage, if the USA had tried to invade a German led Europe, they would have been counter-attacked and America may have been invaded and lost to German/European forces (possibily backed by the USSR).

Thats assuming that Britain would have continued against Germany. I personally think germany would have become the dominant economic and military force in Europe, with Britain being dependant on Germany. At that stage, if the USA had tried to invade a German led Europe, they would have been counter-attacked and America may have been invaded and lost to German/European forces (possibily backed by the USSR).
agree

I think might've been able to take Great Britain in 1941. It would have be difficult but he could have definitely managed it. That would have given Hitler way more options.

Well another reason Hilter went ahead with Operation Barbarossa was because he was so unsuccessful in his attempt to invade Britain. Perhaps, if he maintained a peace with the Soviet Union AND the United States (keep in mind Germany was not obliged by their treaty with Japan to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor), then he might have been able to beat away at Britain, but he still would have needed access to some sort of oil supply in order to maintain that kind of offensive.

He could have probably taken the UK, but he would have still lost. It would have taken longer, but the truth is, you can't take over the world

NS would be in German :eek:
You know you have two languages to set this thing in, Freund: English and German.

I think if he hadnt he wouldnt of lost ww2 but ww2 might still be going on.
If they didnt invade russia all the manpower and materials from there would of been availible for other area's, such as north africa which germany was kicked out of, and this could of turned the tide in these area's or prevented offensives against Germany from ever taking place (such as D-day).
Hitler would of probably Attacked russia at some point but had it been after the UK/north africa was delt with they probably would of been able to handle what the russian's threw at them.
If the War had gone on longer its likely that the germans would of delt alot more damage, you just have to look at what they produced towards the end of the war and think what might of happened if they'd come earlier in the war.
IIRC Hitler did order a halt to all weapon research for a year or two as he thought that britian would fall soon enough and there was no need for it to carry on. Remember, German produced a few things the allies didnt have (least not till germany was defeated) such as the first jet fighter.

Well another reason Hilter went ahead with Operation Barbarossa was because he was so unsuccessful in his attempt to invade Britain. Perhaps, if he maintained a peace with the Soviet Union AND the United States (keep in mind Germany was not obliged by their treaty with Japan to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor), then he might have been able to beat away at Britain, but he still would have needed access to some sort of oil supply in order to maintain that kind of offensive.
don't insist on oil... Americans bombed 5 refineries in Ploiesti, Romania... all working for Germany. We extracted 3 million tones/year of crude in 1944 and had 7 refineries.

don't insist on oil... Americans bombed 5 refineries in Ploiesti, Romania... all working for Germany. We extracted 3 million tones/year of crude in 1944 and had 7 refineries.

Congratulations, you have a lot of oil. It still wasn't enough for Hitler's war plans.

absolutely. for the simple fact that the russians were the reason that nazi germany was defeated. the russians killed about 3.5 million germans, whereas the british and american armies killed about 200,000. and if german forces were not tied down by the eastern front, something like the invasion of france could never have succeeded, what with the huge superioirity of the german military. plus i dont think hitler would have attacked the US, but there would almost certainly have been a later war with russia, as that was always his intended goal.

Without the Triple Alliance, Hitler would have had a good chance.

Congratulations, you have a lot of oil. It still wasn't enough for Hitler's war plans. Sure it was...

If he had actually finished Russia off BEFORE he started Westward he would have stood a much better chance.

I'm not saying he would have been successful overall, just that fighting the War the way he did he was his own worse enemy...

Regards,
Gaar

Sure it was...

If he had actually finished Russia off BEFORE he started Westward he would have stood a much better chance.

I'm not saying he would have been successful overall, just that fighting the War the way he did he was his own worse enemy...

Regards,
Gaar

Yeah, Hitler was a terrible military strategist.

he would have won at first, but eventually he would try to kill off too many of the people alligned with him and they would kill him first.

No

In short, because of the US. He could never have beaten our production capacity... and it's really, really hard to rule hundreds of millions of people who hate you. With the US/others helping the resistance efforts in France, Britain, etc., it would not have been funfor Hitler.

Then again, after 1945 all we would have had to have done was threaten to nuke Germany. That might have been enough to get him to surrender.

I'd say no, as per the fact that it would have taken a hell of a long time for Hitler to build a fleet capable of invading Britain, and during such time, it would come to seem as so desperate, that the US probably would have intervened on Britain's side. As a result, a much tougher, but still successfull campaign this time probably sweeping upwards, hitting southern France, Italy and the Balkans, to get the Nazis to go on the defensive there, meanwhile, a surprise amphibious hook in the north in two places (prolly Normandy and Denmark) would have suddenly opened up a second front, with the US deploying the Pershing tanks instead of the Sherman (more time to build more Pershings, and learn of the failings of the Sherman) and we'd have the Nazis pinned, and then we'd just have to wage a war of slow advances and attrition.


But the allies would win all the same. We'd probably also see B-36s with A-Bombs over Germany by 1947 if the war lasted that long.

He would have one. He wouldnt have to deal with all the russians, devoted more troops to great britain defeating it, america had a lot of problems with invading italy because of sicily, germany would have made the nuke and used it on america. It migh have also perfected the stealth bomber after the first two attempts.

No

In short, because of the US. He could never have beaten our production capacity... and it's really, really hard to rule hundreds of millions of people who hate you. With the US/others helping the resistance efforts in France, Britain, etc., it would not have been funfor Hitler.

Then again, after 1945 all we would have had to have done was threaten to nuke Germany. That might have been enough to get him to surrender.

But had Hitler never gone to war with the Soviet Union, he might never have gone to war with the United States. The reason Germany declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor was as a gesture of goodwill towards Japan in an attempt to get Japan to declare war on the Soviet Union, something that Japan didn't do for Germany. If Germany had never invaded the USSR, they might not have felt any need to declare war on the US, and the US might have not gotten into the European theatre for several years.

I'd say no, as per the fact that it would have taken a hell of a long time for Hitler to build a fleet capable of invading Britain, and during such time, it would come to seem as so desperate, that the US probably would have intervened on Britain's side. As a result, a much tougher, but still successfull campaign this time probably sweeping upwards, hitting southern France, Italy and the Balkans, to get the Nazis to go on the defensive there, meanwhile, a surprise amphibious hook in the north in two places (prolly Normandy and Denmark) would have suddenly opened up a second front, with the US deploying the Pershing tanks instead of the Sherman (more time to build more Pershings, and learn of the failings of the Sherman) and we'd have the Nazis pinned, and then we'd just have to wage a war of slow advances and attrition.


But the allies would win all the same. We'd probably also see B-36s with A-Bombs over Germany by 1947 if the war lasted that long.

America would never nuke germany because of a racial matter and after the war of the pacific would have used up all three nukes (test, hirosima,nagasaki)

No

In short, because of the US. He could never have beaten our production capacity... and it's really, really hard to rule hundreds of millions of people who hate you. With the US/others helping the resistance efforts in France, Britain, etc., it would not have been funfor Hitler.

Then again, after 1945 all we would have had to have done was threaten to nuke Germany. That might have been enough to get him to surrender.

im not sure that britain would have stood up to germany in 1941 if hitlers armies werent concentrating in russia. i doubt we would have won the second battle of britain. in that case, im pretty sure america would have abandoned europe, because there wasnt HUGE support for joining the war and simply because it would have been quite hard for them to fight against germany. plus with out british organised resistance, the german nuclear programme would have gone ahead unmolested, and the germans would probably have got a atomic bomb before the americans.

absolutely. for the simple fact that the russians were the reason that nazi germany was defeated. the russians killed about 3.5 million germans, whereas the british and american armies killed about 200,000. and if german forces were not tied down by the eastern front, something like the invasion of france could never have succeeded, what with the huge superioirity of the german military. plus i dont think hitler would have attacked the US, but there would almost certainly have been a later war with russia, as that was always his intended goal.

Hitler freely declared war on US due to an unknown reason but was suprised when GB declared war on him

But had Hitler never gone to war with the Soviet Union, he might never have gone to war with the United States. The reason Germany declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor was as a gesture of goodwill towards Japan in an attempt to get Japan to declare war on the Soviet Union, something that Japan didn't do for Germany. If Germany had never invaded the USSR, they might not have felt any need to declare war on the US, and the US might have not gotten into the European theatre for several years.
And also, if the Cold War happened, US would back out against the force of Germany and USSR.

Hitler freely declared war on US due to an unknown reason but was suprised when GB declared war on him

He declared war on the US because he hoped it would convince Japan to declare war on the USSR.

Hitler freely declared war on US due to an unknown reason but was suprised when GB declared war on him

sorry, i didnt really understand, could you expand it a bit?

America would never nuke germany because of a racial matter and after the war of the pacific would have used up all three nukes (test, hirosima,nagasaki)
What?

Yes.

In fact, if Hitler and the Japanese hadn't declared war on the U.S.A. so early, they could have easily taken Russia. Then they could have defeated the Americans.

I think might've been able to take Great Britain in 1941. It would have be difficult but he could have definitely managed it. That would have given Hitler way more options.

No i seriously doubt it.

Even if he managed to destroy the raf, which had the upper hand and was bombing Germany by 1941.
He would still have the vastly superior royal navy to content with.

Britain had roughly 50 capital ships in the home islands over 70 in total, the kreigsmarine (german navy )in total by this stage only 20-30 capital ships, so even if he had won air superiority, he then has the problem of the royal navy,

Now assuming be managed to sneak a invasion in at Dover before the navy can get down from scarpa flow.

The Germans solders (the never had a proper marine korp) would then have to climb the steep cliffs of Dover and then make it past a line of pill boxes ect that made the Atlantic wall look like a barbed wire defence (dont belive me tons of them are still there) and a completely refurbished British and common wealth army, which was actually bigger than the Americans in total although much of it was in India and Africa.

Now assuming the Wehrmacht managed to take the beaches they now have a second problem, well more than that. All over south and central England there are numerous pill box lines and strong points (and loads are still there take a walk on any wooded hill in south England that’s were they will still be) so they then have that to fight though.

Now if Hitler had not completely annihilated the British navy, which i seriously doubt consider many of his brand new battle cruisers such as the Graf spree had been sunk and all he had was a defunct air craft carrier and a couple of cruisers, the royal navy would sweep down into the channel, cut the Germans off and force the German army in south England to surrender.

This would either mean peace with Britain or a serious blow to the German army overall that could of resulted in a British landing in France.


As long as Britain has a navy, and it was huge in ww2, Britain is essential uninvadeable.. In fact the Royal navy did a war game with the French I believe in the 1970's 76 I believe ,that played this scenario out in 1940 when the British army had no tanks, and even then the German force was cut off and forced to surrender in 11 weeks.

Britain is essential uninvadeable. That’s basically why it hasn’t happened in 1000 years

This is the problem with the hollywood isation of ww2, its common belife that britian was in a state of colaspe in 1940, something that largely is not true. The only downfall of the dunkrik operation was most of the british armoured corps where lost, but by the time of 1941 they were very much back in action and kicking the shit out of the italians and germans in north africa. In reality britian never really could have lost the war, the speed of the blitzkrieg simply shock eveyone so much it became the common fear that an idetical seemingly invisisable blitzkrieg would be launched on the home isles.

What?

It was more of a racial thing why they nuked japan. America would never nuke germany because they were of the same race as a majority of the americans and european countries are close together so the fallout would probably land in an allied country

Now america only made 3 nukes at that time until the war of the pacific was over. One of the bombs were used as a test because they originally thought that it would blind the enemy and then they could swiftly invade while the enemy is blinded. The second was to hit hiroshima (maybe nagasaki, i dont know the order), then nagasaki was the third and the US had threatened them with a third that they didnt have.

And besides, by the time america could focus all their troops on germany, there would probably be a nuke on the german side of the war or even a vegence three.

No i seriously doubt it.

Even if he managed to destroy the raf, which had the upper hand and was bombing Germany by 1941.
He would still have the vastly superior royal navy to content with.

Britain had roughly 50 capital ships in the home islands over 70 in total, the kreigsmarine (german navy )in total by this stage only 20-30 capital ships, so even if he had won air superiority, he then has the problem of the royal navy,

Now assuming be managed to sneak a invasion in at Dover before the navy can get down from scarpa flow.

The Germans solders (the never had a proper marine korp) would then have to climb the steep cliffs of Dover and then make it past a line of pill boxes ect that made the Atlantic wall look like a barbed wire defence (dont belive me tons of them are still there) and a completely refurbished British and common wealth army, which was actually bigger than the Americans in total although much of it was in India and Africa.

Now assuming the Wehrmacht managed to take the beaches they now have a second problem, well more than that. All over south and central England there are numerous pill box lines and strong points (and loads are still there take a walk on any wooded hill in south England that’s were they will still be) so they then have that to fight though.

Now if Hitler had not completely annihilated the British navy, which i seriously doubt consider many of his brand new battle cruisers such as the Graf spree had been sunk and all he had was a defunct air craft carrier and a couple of cruisers, the royal navy would sweep down into the channel, cut the Germans off and force the German army in south England to surrender.

This would either mean peace with Britain or a serious blow to the German army overall that could of resulted in a British landing in France.


As long as Britain has a navy, and it was huge in ww2, Britain is essential uninvadeable.. In fact the Royal navy did a war game with the French I believe in the 1970's 76 I believe ,that played this scenario out in 1940 when the British army had no tanks, and even then the German force was cut off and forced to surrender in 11 weeks.

Britain is essential uninvadeable. That’s basically why it hasn’t happened in 1000 years

If America hadn't entered the war, and the German navy cut of all trading, Great Britain would starve to death. Mind you, the Navy wouldn't be destroyed. All that would happen is that all the sailors would starve to death or die of scurvey ;).

How could there be an 'other' option??? :confused:

No i seriously doubt it.

Even if he managed to destroy the raf, which had the upper hand and was bombing Germany by 1941.
He would still have the vastly superior royal navy to content with.

Britain had roughly 50 capital ships in the home islands over 70 in total, the kreigsmarine (german navy )in total by this stage only 20-30 capital ships, so even if he had won air superiority, he then has the problem of the royal navy,

Now assuming be managed to sneak a invasion in at Dover before the navy can get down from scarpa flow.

The Germans solders (the never had a proper marine korp) would then have to climb the steep cliffs of Dover and then make it past a line of pill boxes ect that made the Atlantic wall look like a barbed wire defence (dont belive me tons of them are still there) and a completely refurbished British and common wealth army, which was actually bigger than the Americans in total although much of it was in India and Africa.

Now assuming the Wehrmacht managed to take the beaches they now have a second problem, well more than that. All over south and central England there are numerous pill box lines and strong points (and loads are still there take a walk on any wooded hill in south England that’s were they will still be) so they then have that to fight though.

Now if Hitler had not completely annihilated the British navy, which i seriously doubt consider many of his brand new battle cruisers such as the Graf spree had been sunk and all he had was a defunct air craft carrier and a couple of cruisers, the royal navy would sweep down into the channel, cut the Germans off and force the German army in south England to surrender.

This would either mean peace with Britain or a serious blow to the German army overall that could of resulted in a British landing in France.


As long as Britain has a navy, and it was huge in ww2, Britain is essential uninvadeable.. In fact the Royal navy did a war game with the French I believe in the 1970's 76 I believe ,that played this scenario out in 1940 when the British army had no tanks, and even then the German force was cut off and forced to surrender in 11 weeks.

Britain is essential uninvadeable. That’s basically why it hasn’t happened in 1000 years

This is the problem with the hollywood isation of ww2, its common belife that britian was in a state of colaspe in 1940, something that largely is not true. The only downfall of the dunkrik operation was most of the british armoured corps where lost, but by the time of 1941 they were very much back in action and kicking the shit out of the italians and germans in north africa. In reality britian never really could have lost the war, the speed of the blitzkrieg simply shock eveyone so much it became the common fear that an idetical seemingly invisisable blitzkrieg would be launched on the home isles.

By the time the vengence two was made, Britain had no defence against it. All the pill boxes and what not would have been destroyed. Besides the penguin wouldnt be near antartica and start blowing up the british ships

How could there be an 'other' option??? :confused:
I honestly don't know but that's why the other option is there! If there is some OTHER option then people will let us know about it, right?

It was more of a racial thing why they nuked japan. America would never nuke germany because they were of the same race as a majority of the americans and european countries are close together so the fallout would probably land in an allied country

Now america only made 3 nukes at that time until the war of the pacific was over. One of the bombs were used as a test because they originally thought that it would blind the enemy and then they could swiftly invade while the enemy is blinded. The second was to hit hiroshima (maybe nagasaki, i dont know the order), then nagasaki was the third and the US had threatened them with a third that they didnt have.

And besides, by the time america could focus all their troops on germany, there would probably be a nuke on the german side of the war or even a vegence three.


No. We didn't nuke Germany because Germany was already defeated by late 1944. The Japanese would have fought for years if we hadn't n00ked them. The Germans just caved in because their people weren't as fanatical as the Japanese. When the Germans learned what their leaders had done, they were ashamed and *at least* stopped supporting Hitler. The Jap's knew full well what their leaders were doing, and they supported it. In fact, the Japanese would have fought to the death if their Emperor ordered it. In fact, the Emperor was one of the few people in power who wanted to surrender after the second bomb was dropped. If he hadn't ordered the Japanese to stop fighting(which he did), the Japs would have fought until all their cities had been leveled.

I honestly don't know but that's why the other option is there! If there is some OTHER option then people will let us know about it, right?

Other option is I come along and kill everyone in that war with my cudgel :)

Alright, who voted other?

If America hadn't entered the war, and the German navy cut of all trading, Great Britain would starve to death. Mind you, the Navy wouldn't be destroyed. All that would happen is that all the sailors would starve to death or die of scurvey ;).

You do realise that we won the battle of the atlanic pretty much by our selves, by 1941 that crisis was pretty much over due to the cracking of the engima, and after that the u-boats were being picks off like ducks, under water ducks. We made it to 1941 without starving, if hitler had give sealion a go then it would have been an utter disater, and may even have proved a serious turning point in the war.

No i seriously doubt it.

Even if he managed to destroy the raf, which had the upper hand and was bombing Germany by 1941.
He would still have the vastly superior royal navy to content with.

Britain had roughly 50 capital ships in the home islands over 70 in total, the kreigsmarine (german navy )in total by this stage only 20-30 capital ships, so even if he had won air superiority, he then has the problem of the royal navy,

Now assuming be managed to sneak a invasion in at Dover before the navy can get down from scarpa flow.

The Germans solders (the never had a proper marine korp) would then have to climb the steep cliffs of Dover and then make it past a line of pill boxes ect that made the Atlantic wall look like a barbed wire defence (dont belive me tons of them are still there) and a completely refurbished British and common wealth army, which was actually bigger than the Americans in total although much of it was in India and Africa.

Now assuming the Wehrmacht managed to take the beaches they now have a second problem, well more than that. All over south and central England there are numerous pill box lines and strong points (and loads are still there take a walk on any wooded hill in south England that’s were they will still be) so they then have that to fight though.

Now if Hitler had not completely annihilated the British navy, which i seriously doubt consider many of his brand new battle cruisers such as the Graf spree had been sunk and all he had was a defunct air craft carrier and a couple of cruisers, the royal navy would sweep down into the channel, cut the Germans off and force the German army in south England to surrender.

This would either mean peace with Britain or a serious blow to the German army overall that could of resulted in a British landing in France.


As long as Britain has a navy, and it was huge in ww2, Britain is essential uninvadeable.. In fact the Royal navy did a war game with the French I believe in the 1970's 76 I believe ,that played this scenario out in 1940 when the British army had no tanks, and even then the German force was cut off and forced to surrender in 11 weeks.

Britain is essential uninvadeable. That’s basically why it hasn’t happened in 1000 years

This is the problem with the hollywood isation of ww2, its common belife that britian was in a state of colaspe in 1940, something that largely is not true. The only downfall of the dunkrik operation was most of the british armoured corps where lost, but by the time of 1941 they were very much back in action and kicking the shit out of the italians and germans in north africa. In reality britian never really could have lost the war, the speed of the blitzkrieg simply shock eveyone so much it became the common fear that an idetical seemingly invisisable blitzkrieg would be launched on the home isles.


although i agree the invasion of britain would have been a very daunting feat, and i dont think it would have suceeded, i always wonder that as battle ships were obsolescent against airpower, would the home fleet have been destroyed by aircraft from norway on its way down from scarpa flow?

No. We didn't nuke Germany because Germany was already defeated by late 1944. The Japanese would have fought for years if we hadn't n00ked them. The Germans just caved in because their people weren't as fanatical as the Japanese. When the Germans learned what their leaders had done, they were ashamed and *at least* stopped supporting Hitler. The Jap's knew full well what their leaders were doing, and they supported it. In fact, the Japanese would have fought to the death if their Emperor ordered it. In fact, the Emperor was one of the few people in power who wanted to surrender after the second bomb was dropped. If he hadn't ordered the Japanese to stop fighting(which he did), the Japs would have fought until all their cities had been leveled.

Nuke germany and the fall out would go over most if not all europe. America had no other nuke after the two japanese cities fell, they were bluffing.

Now proof it was a racial thing for why the americans wouldnt nuke germany, US internment camps housed what ethnic group? What was that, the Japanese? Well what about the germans who had infact began sabatoging American ships starting on long island and florida.

By the time the vengence two was made, Britain had no defence against it. All the pill boxes and what not would have been destroyed. Besides the penguin wouldnt be near antartica and start blowing up the british ships
the v2 rockets winning world war two


Sure, not to mention they werent operational till 1944, and did jack all damage compared to the blitz, and there predecesors the v1 could be shot down by raf fighters inbetween tea breaks.

The vengence weapons were hitlers last ditch attempt to some how magically turn the tide. had they had nukes on them prehaps, but other wise i think not.

Penguins what the hell?

Britain is essential uninvadeable. That’s basically why it hasn’t happened in 1000 years. Are you still mad at my Ancestors for that?

I mean come on, it has been over a Millennia now... :p

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h04eng.htm

:D

Don't be too mad, they kicked everyone’s ass back then, it was just how they were... :p

Regards,
Gaar

although i agree the invasion of britain would have been a very daunting feat, and i dont think it would have suceeded, i always wonder that as battle ships were obsolescent against airpower, would the home fleet have been destroyed by aircraft from norway on its way down from scarpa flow?

we had i think 3 operational air craft carriers, that would have negated that problem, not to mention finding a fleet in the north sea with the germans radar, would have been like finding a single grain of sand in a super market.

It was more of a racial thing why they nuked japan. America would never nuke germany because they were of the same race as a majority of the americans and european countries are close together so the fallout would probably land in an allied country
Alright, let's remember why the Manhattan Project was brought into being. It was out of fear the the Germans were doing the exact same thing. And we knew that if it came down to that, we could fry the Germans and get them to surrender before that. WWII was all out war, and we would not have held back the bomb.

Germany was the primary threat. Germany would have gotten the juice, not Japan.

Now america only made 3 nukes at that time until the war of the pacific was over. One of the bombs were used as a test because they originally thought that it would blind the enemy and then they could swiftly invade while the enemy is blinded. The second was to hit hiroshima (maybe nagasaki, i dont know the order), then nagasaki was the third and the US had threatened them with a third that they didnt have.
Also note that I gave the date of 1947. Two years after the war. By this point the US had around eight nuclear weapons, this in the face of the disarmament movement after the war. Berlin, Hamburg, Koenigsburg, Munich and Cologne would have all been fried, and we'd have told them we had more coming.

And besides, by the time america could focus all their troops on germany, there would probably be a nuke on the german side of the war or even a vegence three.
Not knowing what the Germans were doing. A good number of their scientists were screwing with their nuclear bomb project, so much that by the time of the US uncovery of the facility that the Germans did their nuclear research in, all the Germans had was a partially constructed reactor, which would have taken, when finished, two years to produce sufficient fissile material.

I'm just happy that my first thread (that I created) was successful and not flamed up. :D

Nuke germany and the fall out would go over most if not all europe. America had no other nuke after the two japanese cities fell, they were bluffing.

Now proof it was a racial thing for why the americans wouldnt nuke germany, US internment camps housed what ethnic group? What was that, the Japanese? Well what about the germans who had infact began sabatoging American ships starting on long island and florida.

U.S. Interment camps held all enemies. Including Germans.

I agree that Americans were less friendly towards the Japs, but we didn't nuke them because they were Easterners. We nuked them because they were ten times the enemy that Nazi Germany was. They killed more of our men, they destroyed more of our resources, and they were our greatest threat.

We responded to the Germans by Fire-bombing their cities to ash.

Another reason people think britian was loosing in 1940, was becuase we had to basically prop up the rest of democractic europe as they coulnt fight for toffie.

Norway, Greece, belguim, France

the v2 rockets winning world war two


Sure, not to mention they werent operational till 1944, and did jack all damage compared to the blitz, and there predecesors the v1 could be shot down by raf fighters inbetween tea breaks.

The vengence weapons were hitlers last ditch attempt to some how magically turn the tide. had they had nukes on them prehaps, but other wise i think not.

Penguins what the hell?

Penguin notice how it had no s. It was the name/nic-name (Damn faulty memory) which during ww2 disquised itself as american/russian ships and began destroying them always changing the identity.
If hitler didnt invade russia the war would last longer then 1944 and the vengence two would have destroyed great britain with ease.

The level of which germany's weapons were advancing during 1944 it would be safe to say that there would be a stronger vengence rocket or at the very least their nuke would be finished and then they would use that on america and they would be scared. After all, adolf had a plan to pour radiated sand all over NYC

Are you still mad at my Ancestors for that?

I mean come on, it has been over a Millennia now... :p

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h04eng.htm

:D

Don't be too mad, they kicked everyone’s ass back then, it was just how they were... :p

Regards,
Gaar
Well it wasunt really britian yet, just a bunch of danes, saxons and celts all running round killing each other.

Mean while my ancestors where up in scotland being awsome.

Nuke germany and the fall out would go over most if not all europe. America had no other nuke after the two japanese cities fell, they were bluffing.

Now proof it was a racial thing for why the americans wouldnt nuke germany, US internment camps housed what ethnic group? What was that, the Japanese? Well what about the germans who had infact began sabatoging American ships starting on long island and florida.
That is not proof by anything but indirect inference. And roughly non-related as well. The reason that the Japanese were interned was because many Americans (incorrectly) believed the Japanese immigrants, by and large much more recently off the boat than the Germans, were much less loyal to the US. It was paranoia, yes, but the rationale used doesn't make an arguement for the US not nuking Germany.

U.S. Interment camps held all enemies. Including Germans.

I agree that Americans were less friendly towards the Japs, but we didn't nuke them because they were Easterners. We nuked them because they were ten times the enemy that Nazi Germany was. They killed more of our men, they destroyed more of our resources, and they were our greatest threat.

We responded to the Germans by Fire-bombing their cities to ash.

NO we nuked them because they were easterners and if they didnt then US would have lost around 500 thous men. By that time the secret Japanese aircraft would have been finished, and would have destroyed the US airforce.
If the US nuked germany then the fall out would go into several other countries such as russia and france making them not happy. A the russians would be mad and probably declare war on US.

we had i think 3 operational air craft carriers, that would have negated that problem, not to mention finding a fleet in the north sea with the germans radar, would have been like finding a single grain of sand in a super market.

well, something lke that, but im not sure that three (or more) aircraft carriers, which carry i think it was the sea skua or sea gladiator fighters, would have been a match for an entire luftflotte, like the one based in norway.

but a fleet that size could easily have been spotted by an organise search by german spotter amphibian planes.

Penguin notice how it had no s. It was the name/nic-name (Damn faulty memory) which during ww2 disquised itself as american/russian ships and began destroying them always changing the identity.
If hitler didnt invade russia the war would last longer then 1944 and the vengence two would have destroyed great britain with ease.

The level of which germany's weapons were advancing during 1944 it would be safe to say that there would be a stronger vengence rocket or at the very least their nuke would be finished and then they would use that on america and they would be scared. After all, adolf had a plan to pour radiated sand all over NYC

Yes but by 1940 Britian's air force had kicked the shit out of the luffwaffe, the navy was kicking the shit out of the u-boats and the kriegsmarine once the engima was cracked, and in north africa a whole german army was running so fast across the sand it dint have time to change its underware.

Even if american had not entered the war bar the economic aid, you must realise the Commonwealth and imperial army was huge absolutely huge, Italy would have been invaded form malta and that was pretty much an all mongormary show any who, Italty would have been out, then imagine greece would have been the same story, and with the level of partisans in that area that woulnt have been too hard.

there's this book i read cant rember the name its about if the allies lost ww2 becuase america dint intervean, and if churchill had been kiled by an air raid, and in that there is a fictional book called the grasshopper lies heavy, that basically outlines what the british on thier own would have done, which basically involved attacking axis europe via italty.

So what the British and Imperial Army would have just sat on their hands in England and waited to be bombed.
Yeah sure.

No to meantion by 1941 massive night bombing where being conducted on germany.

Seriously no one knows more about ww2 than me, seriosuly im a fanatic i could have a doctorate it or somthing.

Also, germany was planning to build c camps all around america such as long island, Germany was asking German americans to attack/sabatoge america ships.

NO we nuked them because they were easterners and if they didnt then US would have lost around 500 thous men. By that time the secret Japanese aircraft would have been finished, and would have destroyed the US airforce.
If the US nuked germany then the fall out would go into several other countries such as russia and france making them not happy. A the russians would be mad and probably declare war on US.
If I remember my European fallout patterns correctly, (I'm not totally sure that I do) it would all just wind up in Poland...

And the secret Japanese aircraft would have to deal with American "secret aircraft" like the jet-fighters we never bothered with deploying, the B-36 bomber and the like.

well, something lke that, but im not sure that three (or more) aircraft carriers, which carry i think it was the sea skua or sea gladiator fighters, would have been a match for an entire luftflotte, like the one based in norway.

but a fleet that size could easily have been spotted by an organise search by german spotter amphibian planes.

Well in that scenario i said that the RAF was beaten, if it had not been and russia had not enterd the war, britian would have been completely uninvadeable

Any sortie over the north sea would have been a total disaster for the luffwaffe from norway, just think they'd be running out of fuel by the time they got there were as the RAF could shoot down some stukas pop back for ten minutes tea break, and get right back out there.

Without an invasion of the USSR Hitler would have been able to consolidate his hold on Europe and make it a true fortress. Using bases on the Black sea a new navy could have been constructed that would have been able to challenge for the Med. Nationalist Spain would have been pressured into joining or be annexed and the Gibralter would have fallen allowing the Germans to pretty much seal the Med off from the Allies until Gib. could be retaken or laid low.
Med in hand, N. Africa falls rather easily, the Suez is lost to the UK and then the Middleast would be partitioned between the Soviets and Germany. Oil is now had.
Hitler probalby would have stopped there. I never have bought the idea he would go for world conquest. I can't recall Hitler ever talking about ruling the whole world and if he didn't invade the USSR than it is obvious he had no intention of ruling the world.

Eveyone here should check out a game called Hearts of iron two, its literal the WW2 what if machine.

Well in that scenario i said that the RAF was beaten, if it had not been and russia had not enterd the war, britian would have been completely uninvadeable

Any sortie over the north sea would have been a total disaster for the luffwaffe from norway, just think they'd be running out of fuel by the time they got there were as the RAF could shoot down some stukas pop back for ten minutes tea break, and get right back out there.

If Hermann Göring had kept bombing the RAF airbases like in the beginning of the Battle of Britain, then the entire southern RAF would have been wiped out. A seaborne invasion was very likely to succeed then.

Without an invasion of the USSR Hitler would have been able to consolidate his hold on Europe and make it a true fortress. Using bases on the Black sea a new navy could have been constructed that would have been able to challenge for the Med. Nationalist Spain would have been pressured into joining or be annexed and the Gibralter would have fallen allowing the Germans to pretty much seal the Med off from the Allies until Gib. could be retaken or laid low.
Med in hand, N. Africa falls rather easily, the Suez is lost to the UK and then the Middleast would be partitioned between the Soviets and Germany. Oil is now had.
Hitler probalby would have stopped there. I never have bought the idea he would go for world conquest. I can't recall Hitler ever talking about ruling the whole world and if he didn't invade the USSR than it is obvious he had no intention of ruling the world.

I doubt it, very much Franco was very isolationist, hell even more than Chamberlain, but yes a loss of gibralta would have been a mess, but then supplies could just have come from india instead via the suez, it would have made a diffrence, but it would not leave the british army cut off, not to mention the british medertrian fleet was a formidable thing.

Yes but by 1940 Britian's air force had kicked the shit out of the luffwaffe, the navy was kicking the shit out of the u-boats and the kriegsmarine once the engima was cracked, and in north africa a whole german army was running so fast across the sand it dint have time to change its underware.

Even if american had not entered the war bar the economic aid, you must realise the Commonwealth and imperial army was huge absolutely huge, Italy would have been invaded form malta and that was pretty much an all mongormary show any who, Italty would have been out, then imagine greece would have been the same story, and with the level of partisans in that area that woulnt have been too hard.

there's this book i read cant rember the name its about if the allies lost ww2 becuase america dint intervean, and if churchill had been kiled by an air raid, and in that there is a fictional book called the grasshopper lies heavy, that basically outlines what the british on thier own would have done, which basically involved attacking axis europe via italty.

So what the British and Imperial Army would have just sat on their hands in England and waited to be bombed.
Yeah sure.

No to meantion by 1941 massive night bombing where being conducted on germany.

Seriously no one knows more about ww2 than me, seriosuly im a fanatic i could have a doctorate it or somthing.

Enlighten me, how would Britain ever defend itself and/or its ships from the V2. If Germany never invaded Russia, its ally then they wouldnt have lost all there snipers and alot of troops at Stalingrad were mostly germans died in the bloodiest battle of world history. They would have more tanks and more aircraft. They would have perfected the stealth bomber which would give the lauffawate (I CANT SPELL :MAD:) an advantage which would have evaded the british airforce (Unless they can see a bug on radar because thats about what you see when a stealth bomber crosses it), allowing them to destroy the navy. The Russians would probably help the germans since they were allies and communist(in other words antiCapitalistic).

If Hermann Göring had kept bombing the RAF airbases like in the beginning of the Battle of Britain, then the entire southern RAF would have been wiped out. A seaborne invasion was very likely to succeed then.
But he din't and by 1941 which is what we are talking about, the RAF was literally on top of the world.

Yeah though your right, theres lots of things the germans could have done that would have won them the war in the jiffy, but Hitler was insane it was his way or the highway, like when he just had to take paris instead of attacking the encireled british army, that would have resulted in peace with Germany

What you have to realise is that yes, hitler did not want world conquest, the plan for sealion was only draw up after churchill refused an white peace. Hitler for some reason loved the U.K he wanted to keep its empire as a stabalising force in the world. He also considerd the British people largely aryan for some reason. But he really hated the U.S.S.R France and America, under the pretence, the french were bastards, and the americans and russians where underraces.

I doubt it, very much Franco was very isolationist, hell even more than Chamberlain, but yes a loss of gibralta would have been a mess, but then supplies could just have come from india instead via the suez, it would have made a diffrence, but it would not leave the british army cut off, not to mention the british medertrian fleet was a formidable thing.

Franco wouldn't have been given a choice. Hitler would have stuck about fifty divisions on his border and asked nicely.
Yeah, the Brit fleet was quite powerful but Germany's industrial capacity would have allowed Hitler to build subs like there was no tomorrow. Now, if he would have been thoughtful enough to do it, I don't know. After all, he was the Allies greatest weapon.

If I remember my European fallout patterns correctly, (I'm not totally sure that I do) it would all just wind up in Poland...

And the secret Japanese aircraft would have to deal with American "secret aircraft" like the jet-fighters we never bothered with deploying, the B-36 bomber and the like.

The secret japanese aircraft would have been superior to the flying fortress and all other american aircraft since those are the planes it was specifically designed to destroy

The thing we can probably agree on is if hitler didnt kill his head general or whatever then germany would have won.

Well in that scenario i said that the RAF was beaten, if it had not been and russia had not enterd the war, britian would have been completely uninvadeable

Any sortie over the north sea would have been a total disaster for the luffwaffe from norway, just think they'd be running out of fuel by the time they got there were as the RAF could shoot down some stukas pop back for ten minutes tea break, and get right back out there.

well yes, in real life the germans would have had a hard time, and rightly abandoned operation sealion.

im not sure about this. the me109s would have been hard pressed, but if the action was out in the north sea, they may have had a good chance. and i dont think 'popping back for a tea break' is how the pilots would have described it.

Enlighten me, how would Britain ever defend itself and/or its ships from the V2. If Germany never invaded Russia, its ally then they wouldnt have lost all there snipers and alot of troops at Stalingrad were mostly germans died in the bloodiest battle of world history. They would have more tanks and more aircraft. They would have perfected the stealth bomber which would give the lauffawate (I CANT SPELL :MAD:) an advantage which would have evaded the british airforce (Unless they can see a bug on radar because thats about what you see when a stealth bomber crosses it), allowing them to destroy the navy. The Russians would probably help the germans since they were allies and communist(in other words antiCapitalistic).

you do realise that by 1944 when the v2 campain was in full swing, lots of them were being shot down, they were not the ultimate weapon, yes they could hit targets within a mile or somthing (crap really), yes they appeared on radar, hell a plane appears on radar dose it not, the British army had the most advandced radar system in the world btw.

But you seem to have an impression that all they way through this britian was simply sitting on its hands doing nothing. By 1944 We had Tubrojet fights, infact they were the ones that shot down most of the v2's, Gloster tyfoon or something i think.

Russia helping the germans,

That i severly severly severly doubt, the two leaders publically hated each other, realistically russia would have attacked germany, by 1942-1943 hell thats what stalin was modernising his army for. the entire point of the non agression pact and the partitian of poland was so stalin could have the baltic states and hitler sucured his east flank.
I refuse to belive that russia would have aided german the ideas stupid, Communism and Nazi's just becuase they both nationalised their industry its insane

By 1944 We had Tubrojet fights, infact they were the ones that shot down most of the v2's, Gloster tyfoon or something i think.



by 1944 we had prototypes of the gloster meteor, but this didnt really have much part to play in the war. most of the shooting down of the v1s was by hawker tempests and supermarine spitfires.

well yes, in real life the germans would have had a hard time, and rightly abandoned operation sealion.

im not sure about this. the me109s would have been hard pressed, but if the action was out in the north sea, they may have had a good chance. and i dont think 'popping back for a tea break' is how the pilots would have described it.

when the me109 had reached the combat zone over the channel they only had 30 minutes left to fight, tipping the odds in favour of the hurricanes and supermarine spitfires.

No

In short, because of the US. He could never have beaten our production capacity... and it's really, really hard to rule hundreds of millions of people who hate you. With the US/others helping the resistance efforts in France, Britain, etc., it would not have been funfor Hitler.

Then again, after 1945 all we would have had to have done was threaten to nuke Germany. That might have been enough to get him to surrender.
you forget one thing. In 44 Germany was ahead of USA in producing the nuke. If there were no russians to mince the meat, Germans would have had the nuke first.... and it would have been the other way around.

you forget one thing. In 44 Germany was ahead of USA in producing the nuke. If there were no russians to mince the meat, Germans would have had the nuke first.... and it would have been the other way around.
Thats the one condtion britian could have reasonable lost over, if jerry had got the nuke.

Realistically the main reason the germans never got it was not becuase of the russians (surely the nuclear scientists werent fighting were they)

Its becuase
A) they had trouble getting the ingrediants, rember if it was not in europe they coulnt get it.
B) British Commandos
They were pretty close in late 1940 had a heavy water plant in norway that was making good progress, that was untill lots of british and norwiegian commands blew the hell out of the place, putting the whole thing back at least a year if not more than that.

you forget one thing. In 44 Germany was ahead of USA in producing the nuke. If there were no russians to mince the meat, Germans would have had the nuke first.... and it would have been the other way around.

nukes make the world go round.

The US would have polished off Japan more quickly and so on and so forth, yadda yadda yadda, "debate qoute" blah blah blah.

I think you'll find this arguement pretty much ends all debate on the subject.

nukes make the world go round.

The US would have polished off Japan more quickly and so on and so forth, yadda yadda yadda, "debate qoute" blah blah blah.

I think you'll find this arguement pretty much ends all debate on the subject.
right.... but now also the coreans have it

right.... but now also the coreans have it

Koreans. Hmm, yep the North (Crazy) Koreans. Well, I guess the South better get off its ass and make a few of their own.

What if Hitler did not invade Russia and they were still allies, could Hitler have won WWII?

No! There was no love lost between Hitler and Stalin. Aside from their philosophical differences, ie. communism vs. fascism neither trusted the other. They made a secret deal to divide Poland when Hitler attacked it. The deal was basically to keep the USSR from attacking Germany. When Germany took Poland, Hitler allowed the USSR to march in and occupy the areas they wanted, just as long as Germany got the area it wanted.

Stalin was a shifty character and would have bided his time to the right moment and invaded German held territory before long anyway with or without the help of the Allies.

There's a lot of information out there it's best to read it and form your own opinions about the what ifs. I think it would kind of interesting to make up "games" doing the what if scenarios based on true facts and history.

Hitler should have went south to get the oil. And possibly Hitler would have won World War 2 becoming a supernation of West Europe. However he's reign wouldn't be very long lived, as it is inevitable that the Communist Russia would eventually battle the Facist Nazi's.