NationStates Jolt Archive

I would like to know what people thought about the IRA. AS i come from england where alot of people here consider them as terrorists i too consider them as terrorists no better than al queda members and such.
However after watching some news shows i have got the idead that some parts of the world think of them as heros. I was just wondering what other peoples reactions to them are.

I would like to know what people thought about the IRA. AS i come from england where alot of people here consider them as terrorists i too consider them as terrorists no better than al queda members and such.
However after watching some news shows i have got the idead that some parts of the world think of them as heros. I was just wondering what other peoples reactions to them are.
No as far as I am concenred they are killers, thieves, weapons dealers etc etc. In fact I see them as below al queda as they targeted people of the same nation and murdered them because of the job they did.

In fact I see them as below al queda as they targeted people of the same nation and murdered them because of the job they did.

I think you find alqueda did that to

I think you find alqueda did that to
Well there you go. scum the lot of them and a waste of skin.

No as far as I am concenred they are killers, thieves, weapons dealers etc etc. In fact I see them as below al queda as they targeted people of the same nation and murdered them because of the job they did.Not sure about Al Queda (or indeed its spelling... :) but the Iraqi Insurgents (who are not AQ) appear to be doing the same with neo-regime police recruits.

(In fact, the fighting of various factions in Ireland and Iraq has the same sort of feel, to me, except for the fact that the Christian/western factions of terrorists don't tend to embrace suicide missions... There's even an apparent similarity in the seperatist/unionist department(s)*...)

That's just my opinion. As a datum point, I'm English but no direct Irish (or Iraqi) connections, and as such don't necessarily have a full grasp of either situation, save what has come through media sources.


[Edit: * - Except that obviousl Iraqi Unionists are taking the role of Irish Republicans, and Kurd Seperatists are taking a role more like the Northern Irish Unionist-yet-own-assembly' sort of position... no, not that close, now that I've written it down, but when I started the post it seemed similar in my head... ;)]

I would like to know what people thought about the IRA. AS i come from england where alot of people here consider them as terrorists i too consider them as terrorists no better than al queda members and such.
However after watching some news shows i have got the idead that some parts of the world think of them as heros. I was just wondering what other peoples reactions to them are.
Well. I do not think of them as heroes by any means, but I DO support a free and independent Ireland. As I support a free Chechnya, a free Tibet, a free Western Papau New Guinea and so on. There are those within each of these occupied nations that attempt to gain their independence politically, and non-violently. These people have my full and complete support. However, there are always those who become frustrated by the lack of freedom, or the slowness of the process, and resort to violence. I don't condone it, I don't like it, but I do understand it. Unfortunately, whether you call them freedom fighters or terrorists, what usually end up happening is that innocent civilians become targets as well.

So, no, I don't consider them to be heroes, and I don't like the strongarm tactics of any group (governments included), but I can understand the kind of frustration that would lead some to violence. :(

Not sure about Al Queda (or indeed its spelling... :) but the Iraqi Insurgents (who are not AQ) appear to be doing the same with neo-regime police recruits.

(In fact, the fighting of various factions in Ireland and Iraq has the same sort of feel, to me, except for the fact that the Christian/western factions of terrorists don't tend to embrace suicide missions... There's even an apparent similarity in the seperatist/unionist department(s)...)

That's just my opinion. As a datum point, I'm English but no direct Irish (or Iraqi) connections, and as such don't necessarily have a full grasp of either situation, save what has come through media sources.
Agreed, some parallels (scuse spellings). Both sets not accepting the democratic process and killing those who are working for the democratically elected gov (bit more complex in Iraq). However in Iraq the killers there do not want democracy, in NI they did as long as the results were what they wanted.
Maybe the US might re look at it's past actions if say France or Germany allowed Iraqi decendants and imigrants there to collect money to fund the murder of US soldiers in Iraq.

So, no, I don't consider them to be heroes, and I don't like the strongarm tactics of any group (governments included), but I can understand the kind of frustration that would lead some to violence. :(

As I said above (obviously you won't have read it yet, and I went back to edit something in that's probably laughable) I really can't pretend to be an expert, so I'll just convey what I learnt from a source I believe to be unbiased (or at least not extremist either way)...

The bits of Ireland that became Eire had a majority vote for independance, except that there was resistence from the minority representation.
The bits of Ireland that's Northern Ireland had a majority vote for remaining within the Union, except that there was resistence from the other minority representation.

It should have been all hunky-dory, but with some of the minorities more than vocal and (especially) some of the majority representatives in each partition believing that the other partition's choice was a mistake (united Ireland or united still in the kingdom) and as there was already a history of armed rebellion it became The Troubles... And some English/British/UK policies didn't help either, must concede, but my scope of knowledge expires went it gets to such details..

However in Iraq the killers there do not want democracy, in NI they did as long as the results were what they wanted.

That is not democracy either, my friend.

blowing stuff up and killing people = bad

That is not democracy either, my friend.
As I said, both lots of scum bags refuse to accept democracy, but the stance of each as to the merits of democracy differ.

*snip*
Ireland's a bit of a tougher nut than say, Chechnya or Tibet....kind of like Puerto Rico really. I'd like to see Puerto Rico independent of the US, and so would many Puerto Ricans...but over and over in referendums, the majority choose to stay.

blowing stuff up and killing people = bad
Does that include when governments do it? (I say yes...)

Does that include when governments do it? (I say yes...)
In some cases yes, but at least they can be held to account. Though some countries choose to ignore international law when it suits.

I would like to know what people thought about the IRA. AS i come from england where alot of people here consider them as terrorists i too consider them as terrorists no better than al queda members and such.
However after watching some news shows i have got the idead that some parts of the world think of them as heros. I was just wondering what other peoples reactions to them are.
Why does Britain oppose giving them their independence?

Why does Britain oppose giving them their independence?
Don't forget...as mentioned before not all Irish people support independence either.

Why does Britain oppose giving them their independence?
It dosen't, the people vote and in every vote the majority wish to stay part of the UK. So do we keep having votes or should those that do not agree, accept it and if they can't move on?

Why does Britain oppose giving them their independence?

Britain doesn't oppose NI's independance, it is the residents of NI that oppose unification with eire. A referendum was taken a few years ago, where it was fairly decisive that the majority of people in Northern Ireland wished to remain a part of the UK, and NOT unify with ireland.

Personally, I don't care what the people of northern ireland choose to do, so long as they stop killing each other, and other British citizens.

The IRA is a terrorist organisation no matter HOW you look at it. The fact that they were supported by US citizens who now revile against terrorism, now that they know what it actually feels like to be a victim, only makes me balk at the whole situation even moreso.

Why does Britain oppose giving them their independence?Eire (a.k.a Irish Republic) was given independance. Northern Ireland is still part of the UK because the majority wanted to stay. The fuss is various people gettng uppity about what (in my eyes) was quite an amicable arrangement. They're fighting about uniting (or re-unionising?) the whole of Ireland.

(Same caveats apply: I could be significantly wrong in my above assessment...)

Dont let my name fool you. I dont support the IRA. The IRA uses violence as a means for gain, and this as with torture and genocide is unacceptable, simply because it targets innocent people and achieves nothing. Though their methods are obviously horrendous and wrong we cannot ignore the reason behind which they fight. The independant and united Ireland notion is one that i personally believe in, though i believe the way to do this is through the ballot box. The republican movement must relinquish all weapons, and so must the violence end, from both sides. Gerry Adams will see this eventually, and after years of consessions and no actions people have become weary. The gun or the ballot? Its an easy choice for any decent person, still we have to understand that the IRA fight because they believe they are doing something right. Helping to remove the British rule that was so brutal towards the Irish in times gone past.
The whole thing is sordid, and needs to be resolved. Unfortunately for both republican and unionist, i cannot see that happening in this half of our life times.

Dont let my name fool you. I dont support the IRA. The IRA uses violence as a means for gain, and this as with torture and genocide is unacceptable, simply because it targets innocent people and achieves nothing. Though their methods are obviously horrendous and wrong we cannot ignore the reason behind which they fight. The independant and united Ireland notion is one that i personally believe in, though i believe the way to do this is through the ballot box. The republican movement must relinquish all weapons, and so must the violence end, from both sides. Gerry Adams will see this eventually, and after years of consessions and no actions people have become weary. The gun or the ballot? Its an easy choice for any decent person, still we have to understand that the IRA fight because they believe they are doing something right. Helping to remove the British rule that was so brutal towards the Irish in times gone past.
The whole thing is sordid, and needs to be resolved. Unfortunately for both republican and unionist, i cannot see that happening in this half of our life times.
Well put. But if there is another ballot, is that accepted for all time are do we keep having them until the result goes the way the IRA wish, and what then do we hold others later to see if the situation should be reversed? Where do we stop. I would like to see one vote in the near future to settle it one way or the other for good!

Why does Britain oppose giving them their independence?
If the majority of Northern Irish citizens wanted independence they would get it.. Britain does not oppose their independence.

The pIRA are murderous pieces of shit that target innocent civilians.. no matter what cause they have they should not kill innocent people.

Does that include when governments do it? (I say yes...)

No matter who did it, it is a bad thing to do.

I passivly support anyone and everyone who wants to live in a free country.
However, I do not support killing innocent (not including informers and so on) civilians, but I can understand the frustration and anger that leads some people to resort to violence. Sinn Fein and PIRA are just using different means for the same purpose, and, except the fact that PIRA kills innocent civilians, I don't see what's wrong with them.

Conclusion:
Would I join the Sinn Fein?
Yes.
Would I join the PIRA?
Not at the moment, and only if the organisation pays for every injured innocent civilian and building.

Let 'em have their independence. Utilitarianism isn't always the way to go, as the majority isn't always right, nor do they always propose the best course of action.

If there are no groups which militantly oppose unification with Ireland, then the only way you can end the violence is to let them have what they want. Besides, geographically, Northern Ireland is not part of Britain. Whenever there's two sovereign nations and there's one which slivers into the other, there are going to be violence and disputes. Just break away clean.

Personally, I don't care what the people of northern ireland choose to do, so long as they stop killing each other, and other British citizens.


The sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the issue method hasnt seemed to have worked in the past and i especially dont think ignoring it will work here. I don't have a solution, but i know that will end sourly.

Dont let my name fool you. I dont support the IRA. The IRA uses violence as a means for gain, and this as with torture and genocide is unacceptable, simply because it targets innocent people and achieves nothing. Though their methods are obviously horrendous and wrong we cannot ignore the reason behind which they fight. The independant and united Ireland notion is one that i personally believe in, though i believe the way to do this is through the ballot box. The republican movement must relinquish all weapons, and so must the violence end, from both sides. Gerry Adams will see this eventually, and after years of consessions and no actions people have become weary. The gun or the ballot? Its an easy choice for any decent person, still we have to understand that the IRA fight because they believe they are doing something right. Helping to remove the British rule that was so brutal towards the Irish in times gone past.
The whole thing is sordid, and needs to be resolved. Unfortunately for both republican and unionist, i cannot see that happening in this half of our life times.


While that is nicely put, the IRA are living in the past, fighting to overturn a rule that is neither any longer all pervasive or tyranical. What is ironic, and most foolish about the IRA as an orginisation is that they are now fighting contrary to the wish of the majority of the population of Ulster.

I must say that I have close zero respect for Sinn Fein. While I can appreciate that they are attempting to create unification by the balot box, they have for an extended period of time been the political arm of the IRA. To me that equates to nothing more than, as another thread states (with a different context) apologists for domestic terrorism.

They refuse to take office in westminster, yet as with most politicians, still manage to charge hundreds of thousands of pounds in expenses to the British government.

The sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the issue method hasnt seemed to have worked in the past and i especially dont think ignoring it will work here. I don't have a solution, but i know that will end sourly.

The last referendum for the unifcation of Ireland was what, 1999? I would hardly call that sticking our heads in the sand over the issue.

Well put. But if there is another ballot, is that accepted for all time are do we keep having them until the result goes the way the IRA wish, and what then do we hold others later to see if the situation should be reversed? Where do we stop. I would like to see one vote in the near future to settle it one way or the other for good!
As a person coming from a country with a (usually) much less violent separatist faction (Canada), I'd have to say that the votes should NEVER stop. Opinion may change one day, and holding one vote to bind everyone for all time simply isn't fair. I would hate to think that a referendum to stay could bind great-great-great grandchildren, regardless of their opinion on the matter.

Let 'em have their independence. Utilitarianism isn't always the way to go, as the majority isn't always right, nor do they always propose the best course of action.

If there are no groups which militantly oppose unification with Ireland, then the only way you can end the violence is to let them have what they want. Besides, geographically, Northern Ireland is not part of Britain. Whenever there's two sovereign nations and there's one which slivers into the other, there are going to be violence and disputes. Just break away clean.
So if you don't agree with an election, murder those who do not agree with you, torture those who follow the rule of law, kill people at random until some one suggest that unless those who oppose you deliver a similar level of violence then you get what you want.
The problem with NI is there is a violent opposition to the unification. So if a small portion of the population of Hawai decided to go to the greater US and kill people at random until it was granted independance that would be ok?

I would like to know what people thought about the IRA. AS i come from england where alot of people here consider them as terrorists i too consider them as terrorists no better than al queda members and such.
However after watching some news shows i have got the idead that some parts of the world think of them as heros. I was just wondering what other peoples reactions to them are.
I consider them heroes. They are fighting for just cause, to end British oppresion in Ireland. I suggest reading the "Union Jacking of Ireland" by Jack O'Brien

The IRA are terrorists and Gerry Adams should be sent on a fact finding visit to Khabul to see what happens to terrorists.
Of course, my mate Aisling reckons the British Army are terrorists, but then she routinely throws flags out of the window because she has a misguided belief that it will help the British people realise the oppression her people have been forced to endure.

As a person coming from a country with a (usually) much less violent separatist faction (Canada), I'd have to say that the votes should NEVER stop. Opinion may change one day, and holding one vote to bind everyone for all time simply isn't fair. I would hate to think that a referendum to stay could bind great-great-great grandchildren, regardless of their opinion on the matter.
So which ever way the vote goes there is another, and another etc. If Canada becomes a republic through the ballot box do you have ballots every few years to see if they want to go back?

I consider them heroes. They are fighting for just cause, to end British oppresion in Ireland. I suggest reading the "Union Jacking of Ireland" by Jack O'Brien
I suggest you actually go to Ireland and see for yourself that plenty of Irish do not want to separate. It's not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it.

So which ever way the vote goes there is another, and another etc. If Canada becomes a republic through the ballot box do you have ballots every few years to see if they want to go back?

I think they're referring more to french canadians, but that kinda makes the point also :p

The last referendum for the unifcation of Ireland was what, 1999? I would hardly call that sticking our heads in the sand over the issue.

You missed the point of what i said. I mean ignoring the issue won't make it go away. Ok, we've had referendums and the good friday agreement back in '99, however this hasnt meant the IRA saw the result and thought 'ok then better pack it in now that the popular vote in Ulster is against us'.
They fight for themselves, and what a piece of paper says doesnt mean tey will stop fighting.
Anyway, the good friday agreement dictates that Paisleys DUP etc must also stop paramilitary activity. The relinquishment of big arms was not exclusive to the IRA. The Unionists are not entirely blameless, but sure enough, we have to find a way of putting the last 100 years behind us. Move forward towards peace. Because ultimately, much as i would love to see a united Ireland, what should it cost? And should it cost in blood? A thousand times no. Peace outweighs everything. No more fighting.

So which ever way the vote goes there is another, and another etc. If Canada becomes a republic through the ballot box do you have ballots every few years to see if they want to go back?
If need be. I for one think that borders should be flexible and fluid. By the way, I'm Cree Native, and I ALSO support native self-rule, which would in essence, provide spheres of native-governed states within Canada as well. If a people truly want to determine their own destiny, and the majority agree, it should happen. To much violence has occured because people resist redrawing the lines on a map. :p

And it would be Quebec becoming a republic, or an independent nation, not Canada, which already is:).

I consider them heroes. They are fighting for just cause, to end British oppresion in Ireland. I suggest reading the "Union Jacking of Ireland" by Jack O'Brien
I hope you are stood near a bin one day and witness your heroes actions first hand.

So if you don't agree with an election, murder those who do not agree with you, torture those who follow the rule of law, kill people at random until some one suggest that unless those who oppose you deliver a similar level of violence then you get what you want.
The problem with NI is there is a violent opposition to the unification. So if a small portion of the population of Hawai decided to go to the greater US and kill people at random until it was granted independance that would be ok?
There is? Well, I don't know, then.

Ban alcohol. Take away the fuel to their Irish fire.

One thing I think we shoul specify is that the IRA and the pIRA and the rIRA are not the same thing. They support the same cause, but the pIRA and the rIRA split off from the original group long ago. Some of the groups labeled IRA no longer espouse violent policies.
DOn't get me wrong, I don't support mass civilian death, but I think the distinctions should be made.

I suggest you actually go to Ireland and see for yourself that plenty of Irish do not want to separate. It's not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it.
I have relatives in Ireland, and they most definatly agree with my ideas, and they are probably the main reason I believe them.

Also, as an individual of Irish blood, I resent the remark about alcohol. That is stereotyping.

One thing I think we shoul specify is that the IRA and the pIRA and the rIRA are not the same thing. They support the same cause, but the pIRA and the rIRA split off from the original group long ago. Some of the groups labeled IRA no longer espouse violent policies.
DOn't get me wrong, I don't support mass civilian death, but I think the distinctions should be made.
So we talk to the men who killed your brother rather those who will murder your son? Shades of grey.

British oppression in Ireland does not exist anymore (or at least no where near on the scale it used to) As someone here said they live in the past. The ballot box is the way forward. Only through this method is the cause just.

If there are no groups which militantly oppose unification with Ireland, then the only way you can end the violence is to let them have what they want.

All that this would do is to pass the problem onto someone else, namely Ireland. The Northern Irish know that economically, and by living standards, they are better off remaining part of the UK, so there would be a lot of people unhappy with joining Ireland.

As far as 'British oppression and cruelty' is concerned, we always seem to get such a raw deal in world press. People seem to forget all the good things we did for our former colonies, and find it far easier to criticise us instead. Northern Ireland is undoubtedly in a far healthier state thanks to UK involvement than it ever would have been had such intervention not taken place.

As a 17yr old British citizen I'd have absolutely no problem at all with Irish unification, provided it was what they wanted. Besides, the Irish have a unified rugby union team that is always lauded for breaking down barriers where politicians have failed.
However, as countless people have said before, unification is not at all what the Northern Irish people want, and ultimately the decision should rest with them.

One thing I think we shoul specify is that the IRA and the pIRA and the rIRA are not the same thing. They support the same cause, but the pIRA and the rIRA split off from the original group long ago. Some of the groups labeled IRA no longer espouse violent policies.
DOn't get me wrong, I don't support mass civilian death, but I think the distinctions should be made.

The whole renaming thing is little more than a way for the IRA to break the ceasefire and get away with it.

Also, as an individual of Irish blood, I resent the remark about alcohol. That is stereotyping.
WANNA FEET OVAR ET?! *smashes bottle*

God save the queen!

http://www.conferenceguideuk.com/Maps%20for%20web/scotflag.gif

As being a person who is half-Scottish, I am obligated to hate you.

And any Englishmen here. Bastards.

I have relatives in Ireland, and they most definatly agree with my ideas, and they are probably the main reason I believe them.
Ay love, I too have relatives in Ireland. I'm half Irish. And they drive me nuts, because some of them support, and some of them resist independence. I also have Cuban friends who support Castro, and others who hate his guts. The beliefs of a faction do not represent the total beliefs of a population.

I have relatives in Ireland, and they most definatly agree with my ideas, and they are probably the main reason I believe them.
I'm sure you could be introduced to a few Irish that would do alot to change your mind. Tell you what go there walk around the pubs and speak loadly of your thoughts.

You missed the point of what i said. I mean ignoring the issue won't make it go away. Ok, we've had referendums and the good friday agreement back in '99, however this hasnt meant the IRA saw the result and thought 'ok then better pack it in now that the popular vote in Ulster is against us'.
They fight for themselves, and what a piece of paper says doesnt mean tey will stop fighting.
Anyway, the good friday agreement dictates that Paisleys DUP etc must also stop paramilitary activity. The relinquishment of big arms was not exclusive to the IRA. The Unionists are not entirely blameless, but sure enough, we have to find a way of putting the last 100 years behind us. Move forward towards peace. Because ultimately, much as i would love to see a united Ireland, what should it cost? And should it cost in blood? A thousand times no. Peace outweighs everything. No more fighting.

I can agree with that:)

The cost of a United Ireland should not involve bloodshed, there's been enough of that already. It should also not involve going against the wishes of Northern Ireland. If you do that, you're only going to make Eire the target of Unionist terrorism in return.

Also, as an individual of Irish blood, I resent the remark about alcohol. That is stereotyping.
No offense, but I'd rather be thought of as an Irish drunk than a Native one...because the connotations of Native drinkers are much more negative:).

That being said, I don't like EITHER of the stereotypes much.

No offense, but I'd rather be thought of as an Irish drunk than a Native one...because the connotations of Native drinkers are much more negative:).

That being said, I don't like EITHER of the stereotypes much.

The idea of the Irish drunk is a stereotype, but to anyone with half a braincell, they can tell it's a joke.

'Sides, I'm 100% irish by blood, and I'm a drunk :p

I would like to know what people thought about the IRA. AS i come from england where alot of people here consider them as terrorists i too consider them as terrorists no better than al queda members and such.
However after watching some news shows i have got the idead that some parts of the world think of them as heros. I was just wondering what other peoples reactions to them are.

Keep in mind that most American's views of the IRA comes from the book/film "Patriot Games".

That said, I think the IRA is similar to the PLO's splinter groups: gone so far out of popular support that they almost can't come back into the fold.

So we talk to the men who killed your brother rather those who will murder your son? Shades of grey.

The old IRA, before the troubles, in the early 20th century, and before the Real and Provisional split, were heralded as heroes. They fought for a good cause then, but things are different now. Grey as you said. There's a whelm of literature to support both sides, though this 'final push' to get the British out must now be conducted through the ballot, or not at all.

On another note, i suggest watching the U2 performance of 'Sunday Bloody Sunday' off the Film Rattle and Hum 1988. Any vehement republican should see it. Chills the spine and really puts things into perspective. It will test your belief, and wipe the 'heroes' outlook from your mind. Perhaps.

The idea of the Irish drunk is a stereotype, but to anyone with half a braincell, they can tell it's a joke.

'Sides, I'm 100% irish by blood, and I'm a drunk :p

Here here. :) I'm half blood, but Irish on paper. (Passport and citizenship)
I too love the odd drink or 5.

The old IRA, before the troubles, in the early 20th century, and before the Real and Provisional split, were heralded as heroes. They fought for a good cause then, but things are different now. Grey as you said. There's a whelm of literature to support both sides, though this 'final push' to get the British out must now be conducted through the ballot, or not at all.As far as I can see, the 'upper echelon' of the (respective) terrorist organisations are probably just enjoying having power, much as mob family top-guys do. I don't think political ideology really means as much to them as it does the average 'foot-soldier' who might indeed operate on one side or another on pure principle.

But then I'm a sassanach/sassnaig/Irish-Gaelic-equivalent-term. (You've got the 'C-Celtic' language variation, right, like the Scots?) And I'm generalising, which may well be a worse crime.

I consider them heroes. They are fighting for just cause, to end British oppresion in Ireland. I suggest reading the "Union Jacking of Ireland" by Jack O'Brien

lmao fight to end British oppression in Ireland? What oppression? Those days are long gone and fighting? The IRA declared a ceasefire years ago.

Shows how much you know about the situation in NI, dumbass.

I consider them heroes. They are fighting for just cause, to end British oppresion in Ireland. I suggest reading the "Union Jacking of Ireland" by Jack O'Brien
I consider the old IRA heroes. Those in the days of Pearse and Michael Collins. But not anymore. I respect their cause, but the means are totally unacceptable. And as big a Fenian as some people make me out to be, I have no love whatsoever for the Provos. Violence begets violence, as we have only seen too many times in the past. As strong as my feelings are against a UK-held NI, I simply can't condone the tactics they have been using.

I agree with the many people in this thread who say that diplomacy is the way to end this and bring peace, however I don't see that happening any time soon. Unfortunately, it's true that many Irish (Republic or NI) don't care anymore about a unified Ireland. This is a fact I have trouble coming to terms with. But at the same time there are many people for whom the wounds are too fresh and too deep to let heal. And those are the ones who will continue to fight.

I cannot, however, bring myself to call the IRA terrorists. Freedom Fighters, yes. Although the term has the same meaning, the connotation is a bit easier to swallow. So there's my double-edged opinion on the matter.

And NoF, you might enjoy Brendan Behan's autobiography "Confessions of an Irish Rebel."

I cannot, however, bring myself to call the IRA terrorists. Freedom Fighters, yes. Although the term has the same meaning, the connotation is a bit easier to swallow. So there's my double-edged opinion on the matter.



Collins and his ilk were freedome fighters.

The IRA for the last 50 years, and more recently the rIRA, specifically the rIRA, I don't see how anyone can view as anything but.

If they were freedom fighters, why not attack interests in the homeland they're attempting to gain independance for?

No, instead they bomb targets on mainland britain, on the whole, targetting civillians.

THAT is terrorism.

I would like to know what people thought about the IRA. AS i come from england where alot of people here consider them as terrorists i too consider them as terrorists no better than al queda members and such.
However after watching some news shows i have got the idead that some parts of the world think of them as heros. I was just wondering what other peoples reactions to them are.

I do not think of them as 'terrorists' but rather as a liberation force.
The loss of civilian life, no matter what side, is sad but it happens in war and make no mistake about it there is a war down there.
The way I look at this is like this, If the I.R.A. are terrorists then the British military is also terrorists. Ever heard of Bloody Sunday? Oh, and by the way it's not like that was a 'one time only' thing, if you look at Irish history just in the 20th Century you will see that there have been several 'Bloody Sunday's' alone.
The I.R.A. is not a terrorist organization.

Why the hell don't people talk about those unionist fighting groups? It's allways the I.R.A., WTF?

Collins and his ilk were freedome fighters.

The IRA for the last 50 years, and more recently the rIRA, specifically the rIRA, I don't see how anyone can view as anything but.

If they were freedom fighters, why not attack interests in the homeland they're attempting to gain independance for?

No, instead they bomb targets on mainland britain, on the whole, targetting civillians.

THAT is terrorism.

That depends on how you would classify freedom fighters and terrorists. There are many people who believe that the American troops in Iraq are freedom fighters, and just as many think they are just as bad as the terrorists they claim to fight.

Personally I think that the IRA are terrorists, fighting for a just cause, but with the wrong methods.

That depends on how you would classify freedom fighters and terrorists. There are many people who believe that the American troops in Iraq are freedom fighters, and just as many think they are just as bad as the terrorists they claim to fight.

Personally I think that the IRA are terrorists, fighting for a just cause, but with the wrong methods.
It all comes down to perspective. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Murderers. Killers. Scum of the fucking Earth.

I'm not a rampant Unionist either - I was actually born a Catholic (from a mixed marriage, though neither parent was especially religious and I have been an Atheist for years). I used to be a Republican, but the more I watched the IRA kill and maim, the more I hated them, and the more I grew to hate their cause. If the IRA had employed legitimate, democratic means in an attempt to bring about a United Ireland, I think I would still support their cause. But they didn't. I equally hate the loyalist paramilitaries, by the way.

The recent bank robbery and all the trouble surrounding the McCartney case have caused the IRA public hassle, and while I wish neither thing had happened, I am at least glad people are fed up with them. But I was fed up with them years ago.

To them, any Protestant, Unionist or British national was fair game for murder. I could almost have understood (though certainly not condoned) it if they had targeted the politicans here and in GB, but for the overwhelming most part, it was ordinary people they murdered.

My political position on NI now is that I don't really give a fuck. I suppose I ultimately would prefer a United Ireland, but the majority of people in this country want to remain with the UK, and that's fine by me. This is meant to be a democracy, after all.

I would call the IRA terrorists, can anyone remember the bombing in omagh where 29 people were murdered. These people are no better than Al queda members and i dont believe they should be treated any differently, they too should be looked up for a long time in places like guantanamo bay.

I would call the IRA terrorists, can anyone remember the bombing in omagh where 29 people were murdered. These people are no better than Al queda members and i dont believe they should be treated any differently, they too should be looked up for a long time in places like guantanamo bay.
I agree. Sadly, the fuckers and their equally-scummy loyalist counterparts are now roaming the streets, thanks to the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

Perhaps on one level the IRA are worse than Islamic militant groups as these groups feel they are being oppressed by the west. There is no oppression in northern ireland

Ive read through this thread and I keep on seeing these words (or something along similar lines);

"Their cause is just but their methods are not"

This seems to ignoring the fact that their cause is far, far from just and their cause is actually against the principle of democracy. Countless votes have shown that the majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to remain part of the United Kingdom. In recent elections, the Unionist Party under Ian Paisley gained the majority of the vote. In continuing their campaingn against British rule in Northern Ireland, the IRA are opposing the wishes of the Ulster public and so have revealed that their cause is far, far from just as it is contary to the most basic principle of democracy: the majority in a vote should get their way. Northern Ireland does not independence, it never has wanted independence (even since the days of the mid 1800s) and any group that sets out to destroy that desire is fundamentally unjust.

Ive read through this thread and I keep on seeing these words (or something along similar lines);

"Their cause is just but their methods are not"

This seems to ignoring the fact that their cause is far, far from just and their cause is actually against the principle of democracy. Countless votes have shown that the majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to remain part of the United Kingdom. In recent elections, the Unionist Party under Ian Paisley gained the majority of the vote. In continuing their campaingn against British rule in Northern Ireland, the IRA are opposing the wishes of the Ulster public and so have revealed that their cause is far, far from just as it is contary to the most basic principle of democracy: the majority in a vote should get their way. Northern Ireland does not independence, it never has wanted independence (even since the days of the mid 1800s) and any group that sets out to destroy that desire is fundamentally unjust.
Their cause is to re-unite Ulster with the rest of the provinces. Ulster was stolen and they want it back. This is the same battle which has been raging since the Brits first stepped on Irish soil and laid claims to it.

Their cause is to re-unite Ulster with the rest of the provinces. Ulster was stolen and they want it back. This is the same battle which has been raging since the Brits first stepped on Irish soil and laid claims to it.

So you think we should just ignore the citizens of Northern Ireland and give the North back to the South just because a particularly loud mouth minority demands it?

I am afraid democracy doesnt work that way.

Northern Ireland does not independence, it never has wanted independence (even since the days of the mid 1800s) and any group that sets out to destroy that desire is fundamentally unjust.

well, technically not true. if you count northern ireland as a whole, maybe. do you know how ireland was divided? they had a poll of catholic to protestant. the counties with the majority being protestant remained in britain. though tyrone had 51% catholic they kept it any way. that was the home rule bill by isaac butt (hehe) in 1870. it was applied in 1921

Murderers. Killers. Scum of the fucking Earth.
.

So you think we should just ignore the citizens of Northern Ireland and give the North back to the South just because a particularly loud mouth minority demands it?

I am afraid democracy doesnt work that way.
If they want to stay a part of the UK, they can move back to England.

to gaeltach
the majority of people in northern ireland want to remain with the united kingdom, those that violently oppose this dont just want to unite ireland they seem to want to destroy democracy. The people of morhtern ireland are not oppressed they are treat as british citizens the IRA's violent campaign is nothing more than terrorism

If they want to stay a part of the UK, they can move back to England.

damn straight!

to gaeltach
the majority of people in northern ireland want to remain with the united kingdom, those that violently oppose this dont just want to unite ireland they seem to want to destroy democracy. The people of morhtern ireland are not oppressed they are treat as british citizens the IRA's violent campaign is nothing more than terrorism

I thought britain wasn't a democracy.....

If they want to stay a part of the UK, they can move back to England.

In that case why dont coalition troops leave iraq, israelis leave israel, americans of western origins leave north america (the indians had it first) it makes no sense

If they want to stay a part of the UK, they can move back to England.

They own the land not you.

You want the land, I'm sure them and the rest of their nuclear weapon owning nation would be more than happy for you to try and take it.

I thought britain wasn't a democracy.....

Of course britain is a democracy we may have a monarchy but they have no power they are nothing more than a tourist trap

to gaeltach
the majority of people in northern ireland want to remain with the united kingdom, those that violently oppose this dont just want to unite ireland they seem to want to destroy democracy. The people of morhtern ireland are not oppressed they are treat as british citizens the IRA's violent campaign is nothing more than terrorism
Yes, there's no glaring oppression now, but that doesn't change the fact that that's how Britain aquired any of Ireland to begin with. Like I said earlier, old wounds. And again, I don't support the violence which the IRA uses, nor it's tactics against civilians.

I do not think of them as 'terrorists' but rather as a liberation force.Liberating who from who? If it's the minority at the expense of the majority opinion then it's hardly liberating.

The loss of civilian life, no matter what side, is sad but it happens in war and make no mistake about it there is a war down there.Not war as I know it. Regular war is soldier-on-soldier and civilian losses should be minimised. "Total War" turns that around and makes civilians a target (a la Bomber Harris and Dresden) but with strategic reference to defeatng the opposing army (not the best tactic, in my book, but I can see why it happened in WW2). "Smart War" may involve targetting civilian infrastructure but should have minimal civilian casualties (how more modern conflicts are generally attempted, by the West at least, though with varying success as we all know). What the IRA does is terrorism. They may attack military targets, but most of the time they avoid them and hit civilians. Civilians who have no direct involvement in the 'conflict'.

The way I look at this is like this, If the I.R.A. are terrorists then the British military is also terrorists. Ever heard of Bloody Sunday? Oh, and by the way it's not like that was a 'one time only' thing, if you look at Irish history just in the 20th Century you will see that there have been several 'Bloody Sunday's' alone.Not our finest hour. I don't want to excuse what was a soldier-on-civilan action, though if it was in defence of a (supposed-)civilian-upon-soldier attack then no-one can totally condem it. (NB: I'm not saying it was right, but it may not have been totally wrong.) Those with uniforms should not attack those out of uniform, but at the same time they ought to expect not to be attacked by those out of uniform. If it really is a war, there's Geneva Convention rules about that.

The I.R.A. is not a terrorist organization.I respectfully disagree (assuming you mean pIRA/rIRA as opposed to the original IRA who may have had just cause), for the reasons given above.

Why the hell don't people talk about those unionist fighting groups? It's allways the I.R.A., WTF?I peronally do try to be inclusive of all paramilitary organisations. I've no idea who came first. I suspect that the (original) [oops, posted too soon. Continuing...] original IRA was the first, but as part of the continuing response to (historic) English invasion. The recent/modern incarnations of the IRA will have forced the spawning of the various opposing factions (UDF?).


As to the Ulster Irish abandoning NI for England, go back far enough, and no-one is entitled to the land you live on. However, I don't think it's unfair to consider that the current population of Ulster are entitled to consider it their own, and that they can cede what powers of government they have to Westminster if they should wish to do so without 'provo'cation. I don't think it's fair that the disagreeing minority should be set upon by the Unionist terrorist organisations, either.

they are nothing more than a tourist trap

you trap tourists :eek:

Yes, there's no glaring oppression now, but that doesn't change the fact that that's how Britain aquired any of Ireland to begin with. Like I said earlier, old wounds. And again, I don't support the violence which the IRA uses, nor it's tactics against civilians.
are we going to return every bit of land that was conquered to the people who originally owned it?

the majority of the people here want to be in the UK, while thats the case it stays as part of the UK

if it changes then it joins the Republic

Of course britain is a democracy

well, constitutional monarchy...

Of course they are terrorist. But i also think that people have a strong feeling about all this terrorism groups, and unfortunally dont see why they make that. They, in a general time, suffers with a imperalist gorvement, which has never thought what they are.

I also think that they should be more respectiful.

Of course they are terrorist. But i also think that people have a strong feeling about all this terrorism groups, and unfortunally dont see why they make that. They, in a general time, suffers with a imperalist gorvement, which has never thought what they are.

I also think that they should be more respectiful.

That's a good point. I think many people object to being (practically) the last remaining colony of the British empire

Well my family is S Irish, and as such we view the British in N Eire as an invading/occupying army. We also believe that the ones in the North (PIRA) as having gone away from the "true belief" of freedom for Eire. We also tend to view the Oranges as the "Vichy" of N Eire. Makes it a bit sticky eh? It also will be until the Brits leave.

In the end no side is entirely blameless. You can tally atrocities on all sides, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

Well I guess this is what happens with governments that take over land that isn't theirs. :headbang:

Well I guess this is what happens with governments that take over land that isn't theirs. :headbang:

Yes but now the majority of people in n ireland want it to remain part f the united kingdom. Dont you think the majorities views should be respected over the violent minorities

Well my family is S Irish, and as such we view the British in N Eire as an invading/occupying army. We also believe that the ones in the North (PIRA) as having gone away from the "true belief" of freedom for Eire. We also tend to view the Oranges as the "Vichy" of N Eire. Makes it a bit sticky eh? It also will be until the Brits leave.
All the people I know living South of the border don't give a damn what happens up here :p I'm largely with them on that.

If they want to stay a part of the UK, they can move back to England.Firstly, the UK is not just England. Secondly, some of us living here actually like it here and don't want to move anywhere, whatever our persuasion is. Thirdly, most here have never lived in England, so they would not be moving 'back'.

Republicans could move to the Republic. Not like that idea? Well, you'll understand opposition to your's, then. I'm sure you wouldn't tell an immigrant from the Middle East or wherever to 'go back to where he came from', would you? That would surely be considered racist. Why allow it for the majority of the people of this country, then?

Yeah, the British may have screwed Ireland over in the past - but the key phrase there is 'in the past'. You can't tar today's British people, or unionist people, with the same brush as their predecessors. The country is, for now, British. At the present time, the majority in said country want it that way. When a majority wants it to be Irish, I'm sure it'll happen. Since you clearly support that, it may be more constructive just to wait for it to happen, rather than blindly criticising those who don't completely agree with your stance on the issue.

If they want to stay a part of the UK, they can move back to England.
oh, and the vast majority of the Northern Irish Protestants are descended from Scottish people who came over in the Plantation.

Scottish people that generally originally came from Ireland.....

Alot of people seem to think that people who settled in lands that were origionally not theirs should just up and leave. Ive already said this but ill say it again, it makes no sense. Its no different from asking all people of european origin to leave america because the indians were there first

Also we could ask all european descendant australians to leave so the aborijinies can have it back

ok here is my opinion, i feel that the IRA in the early part of the 20th century when michael collins was there were freedom fighters fighting for a noble cause, BUT the IRA since then are nothing but terrorists who can't seem to let go of their cause, i am not an expert on any measure about nothern ireland or the IRA, but i feel that are other ways for Northen Ireland to gain thier independance with a pen rather than by a barrel of a gun, because it has been proven so many times that "the pen is mightier than the sword" that is how i feel so there goes

Personaly I feel that the IRA are not heros, I prefer the term Patriot. The colonial soldiers of the US were seen as terrorist because they used weapons and tactics that were unconventional by accepted standards of their time. I feel the IRA was no different. Targeting your own who are loyal to a foriegn power is no different than targeting members of the foriegn army. Terrorism is an acceptable form of revolution when all other options have been removed. If the IRA had not been around, Northern Ireland would not be as well off as it is now.

If the IRA had not been around, Northern Ireland would not be as well off as it is now.Oh yes, obviously, because the few thousand innocent people that they killed would actually still be around today! Wouldn't that have been just awful? :rolleyes:

Additionally, 'all other options' had not been exhausted. They were hardly even tried.

If the IRA had not been around, Northern Ireland would not be as well off as it is now.
yes those huge economic, social and political problems caused by the troubles are really a Very Good Thing



:rolleyes:

Personaly I feel that the IRA are not heros, I prefer the term Patriot. The colonial soldiers of the US were seen as terrorist because they used weapons and tactics that were unconventional by accepted standards of their time. I feel the IRA was no different. Targeting your own who are loyal to a foriegn power is no different than targeting members of the foriegn army. Terrorism is an acceptable form of revolution when all other options have been removed. If the IRA had not been around, Northern Ireland would not be as well off as it is now.

Be prepared for a complete flaming when you take into account that you've just condoned not only Irish Terrorism, but Palestinian, Muslim, and in fact every other terrorist organisation around the globe.

The targetting of civilians is never acceptible. If you were talking about militia, then I could perhaps lend at least some credence to your statements. When you're targetting pure civillians however, women and children, who's only crime is to have a different religious or political belief to you, you are nothing but an animal.

By your logic, it would be completely fine for me to attack any person that disagrees with me, and don't try to use your "when all other options have been removed" as a get out clause. As many have stated, Collins could be considered a freedome fighter and patriot, because he WAS rebelling against British rule in clear favour with the majority of his countrymen. Since that time, Northern Ireland has had the option to unify with Eire, and leave the UK. It has decided not to do this.

Personaly I feel that the IRA are not heros, I prefer the term Patriot. The colonial soldiers of the US were seen as terrorist because they used weapons and tactics that were unconventional by accepted standards of their time. I feel the IRA was no different. Targeting your own who are loyal to a foriegn power is no different than targeting members of the foriegn army. Terrorism is an acceptable form of revolution when all other options have been removed. If the IRA had not been around, Northern Ireland would not be as well off as it is now.

So do you believe the terrorist that carried out 9/11 are patriots? I cant see a difference between Bin Laden and co and the IRA. They are both wrong, ifd they want independance they should try and get it peacefully, australia and canada managed it

Firstly, the UK is not just England. Secondly, some of us living here actually like it here and don't want to move anywhere, whatever our persuasion is. Thirdly, most here have never lived in England, so they would not be moving 'back'.
I know. Forgive my Devil's Advocacy. Tends to run away with me sometimes.

The country is, for now, British. At the present time, the majority in said country want it that way. When a majority wants it to be Irish, I'm sure it'll happen. Since you clearly support that, it may be more constructive just to wait for it to happen, rather than blindly criticising those who don't completely agree with your stance on the issue.
I wasn't criticizing anyone. I respect your right to disagree with me. That's what keeps debates interesting. I'm not out trying to change anyone's mind here. Just explaining my position and mindset to the people who call me on it.

Be prepared for a complete flaming when you take into account that you've just condoned not only Irish Terrorism, but Palestinian, Muslim, and in fact every other terrorist organisation around the globe.

The targetting of civilians is never acceptible.

I am aware of what I said. I have nothing against Palestinians trying to remove Isreal from Palestine. They are attempting to remove an unwanted invader. The UN had no right to place the Isreales there in the first place.

As for the targeting of civilians, if war has been declared then they are all the enemy. Weather they are militia or reservests or normal people, they are a resource that must be removed if you wish to defeat your opponent.

I am aware of what I said. I have nothing against Palestinians trying to remove Isreal from Palestine. They are attempting to remove an unwanted invader. The UN had no right to place the Isreales there in the first place.

As for the targeting of civilians, if war has been declared then they are all the enemy. Weather they are militia or reservests or normal people, they are a resource that must be removed if you wish to defeat your opponent.

Here ladies and gentlemen, we have a future war criminal in the making.

Good day.

As for the targeting of civilians, if war has been declared then they are all the enemy. Weather they are militia or reservests or normal people, they are a resource that must be removed if you wish to defeat your opponent.

But do you not think that war should have rules like not targeting civilians?

Also why are the IRA fighting this war, the majority of those in northern island waht to remanin with the UK its only a minority that dont

So do you believe the terrorist that carried out 9/11 are patriots? I cant see a difference between Bin Laden and co and the IRA. They are both wrong, ifd they want independance they should try and get it peacefully, australia and canada managed it

There is a very clear diference, the IRA were fighting for freedom. The US has not nor have they planned a colony in the middle-east. Al queda is a group of misguided religious extremists that view freedom and capitalism among other things as evil.

Here ladies and gentlemen, we have a future war criminal in the making.

Good day.
Actualy it is a long standing military tactic, it has fallen from favor since the end of the US civil war. Gen. WT Sherman use it, It worked.

Actualy it is a long standing military tactic, it has fallen from favor since the end of the US civil war. Gen. WT Sherman use it, It worked.

And people say mankind is moving forward...

I'd challenge your opinions, but they're so neanderthallic, I'm sure nature will take its course.

There is a very clear diference, the IRA were fighting for freedom. The US has not nor have they planned a colony in the middle-east. Al queda is a group of misguided religious extremists that view freedom and capitalism among other things as evil.

At the end of the day both groups are using violence against civilians to get what they want. Those in the middle east feel that the west is oppressing them for oil and the occupation of iraq, so they are fighting for the same thing to end what they see as oppression. However no one in northern Ireland is being oppressed as the majority want to remain part of the uk

But do you not think that war should have rules like not targeting civilians?

Also why are the IRA fighting this war, the majority of those in northern island waht to remanin with the UK its only a minority that dont

No. Why should a civilan be treated better or not tageted now, the British and Americans had to trouble tageting civilans in WWI and WWII. Just because something bad happens to you, that doesn't mean that you change the rules. If you do make rules protecting civilians then you run the risk of killing your own people when wackjobs like Saddam use civilians as human shields to protect their military resources.

Actualy it is a long standing military tactic, it has fallen from favor since the end of the US civil war. Gen. WT Sherman use it, It worked.

Another long standin tactic is using slave labour, the nazis found it particularly effective. Perhaps the IRA should capture british citizens and force them to work in labour camps

At the end of the day both groups are using violence against civilians to get what they want. Those in the middle east feel that the west is oppressing them for oil and the occupation of iraq, so they are fighting for the same thing to end what they see as oppression. However no one in northern Ireland is being oppressed as the majority want to remain part of the uk

That is hard for me to beleive. Here in the US the news that comes out of Northern Ireland has painted the British as oppresive at best. I can only base my opinons on what facts I have received.

No. Why should a civilan be treated better or not tageted now, the British and Americans had to trouble tageting civilans in WWI and WWII. Just because something bad happens to you, that doesn't mean that you change the rules. If you do make rules protecting civilians then you run the risk of killing your own people when wackjobs like Saddam use civilians as human shields to protect their military resources.

Im not saying the british and american tactics were right but in fairness to them the large scale bombings helped to destroy german industry which helped shorten the war and perhaps saved lives. The IRA target civilians to cause terror (= terrorist) to try and get their minority view into power

That is hard for me to beleive. Here in the US the news that comes out of Northern Ireland has painted the British as oppresive at best. I can only base my opinons on what facts I have received.

We did oppress the Irish i will accept that but not in recent times.

Of course they are, however worthy their goal may or may not be. So are al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc. (and these group do not have a goal that could even remotely be considered virtuous). Their actions remove any question as to the appropriateness of the terrorist label.

We did oppress the Irish i will accept that but not in recent times.

I'm sorry but from what little is in the news anymore, it sounds like very little has changed. It is also had to say the majority wants to stay part of the UK when a very large portion of the population was not allowed / unable to vote.

Remember Saddam never lost an election. It is easy to fudge the numbers. The current US president was not above such tactics.

Change through the ballot box, not revolution. I am proud of my Irish heritage and would love for the emerald Isle to be one country. It is up to the people of Northern Ireland if they want to remain part of the UK, or join Ireland.

That is hard for me to beleive. Here in the US the news that comes out of Northern Ireland has painted the British as oppresive at best. I can only base my opinons on what facts I have received.
the the news you are getting is wrong

I'm sorry but from what little is in the news anymore, it sounds like very little has changed. It is also had to say the majority wants to stay part of the UK when a very large portion of the population was not allowed / unable to vote.

Remember Saddam never lost an election. It is easy to fudge the numbers. The current US president was not above such tactics.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Of course, it may be that we in the UK have the terrible truth shielded from us, but if that's the case then I'd be very interested to see the media sources that allege vote rigging and continuing oppression.

It has always been a slightly touchy subject in the UK that the IRA has often been portrayed in the US as some kind of justified group sriving for liberty, when really they're planting bombs in shopping malls and murdering innocent people. We generally put it down to the large Irish-American vote. Having said that, it seems the tide has turned recently, with both Bush and Ted Kennedy refusing to have anything to do with Gerry Adams during the St. Patrick's Day celebrations, when normally he gets invited to the big parade thing.

Personaly I feel that the IRA are not heros, I prefer the term Patriot. The colonial soldiers of the US were seen as terrorist because they used weapons and tactics that were unconventional by accepted standards of their time. I feel the IRA was no different. Targeting your own who are loyal to a foriegn power is no different than targeting members of the foriegn army. Terrorism is an acceptable form of revolution when all other options have been removed. If the IRA had not been around, Northern Ireland would not be as well off as it is now.I can perhaps accept that (with the aid of a long memory, which is another point to argue) you can consider the British as illegal invaders of a foreign power, but you can't then bring the Colonial soldiers of the US into the argument, can you?

(Colonials, you see. British (and other) colonists. Wars between the colonising nations I can accept, but colonists considering their own nation as invaders is a bit rich... :))

That is hard for me to beleive. Here in the US the news that comes out of Northern Ireland has painted the British as oppresive at best. I can only base my opinons on what facts I have received.Who gives you this news?

I'm sorry but from what little is in the news anymore, it sounds like very little has changed. It is also had to say the majority wants to stay part of the UK when a very large portion of the population was not allowed / unable to vote.
Look at the Community Background parts of the Northern Ireland 2001 census, and you will find that a majority is still Protestant. It is quite rare for Protestants to support Irish Republicanism.

http://www.nicensus2001.gov.uk/nica/public/index.html

I've never understood why some Americans are so obsessed with Irish unity. Why, frankly, do you care? So what if your great-great-grandmother was from Co Kerry or similar? You aren't. (I realise this is a gross generalisation, and I sincerely apologise to those to whom it does not apply).

Britain doesn't oppress this country or its inhabitants in the least. If anything, in practice, it takes quite little to do with it.

Britain doesn't oppress this country or its inhabitants in the least. If anything, in practice, it takes quite little to do with it.I think it's long memories. The Irish Potato Famine was one main root cause for emmigration to the New World, a period of time where British mismanagement existed (either that or greed of the landowners, but as a lot of them owed it to the British, directly or indirectly, the finger generally points back to the island this side of the Isle Of Man, one way or another).

I think that a lot of US sentiment comes from the inherited resentment of the ancestors who arrived on the shores back then (incidentally, I imagine they displaced even more of the Native Americans... ;)) and so the people in Ireland seeking funds tapped into this emotion by decribing how "things haven't changed"...

I'd say there were still problems, but the fact that the British Army patrols the streets of Belfast isn't a sign of an invading army, but of one defending its own territory (yes, it was conquered hunderds of years ago, but so were the Americas, at some point you have to deal with the here and now) and, ironically, I think it started off with the Army defending the minority Catholics against the majority Protestants, but since then they've been caught in the middle...

What I never understood is why they have never held a county-by-county or constituency-by-constituency referendum on unification. Surely then when the majority Nationalist areas accept (or perhaps even reject) entry into the south then you’ve pulled most of the rug from beneath the P/R/C IRA and the INLA, satisfying most of their supporters and making Unionists happy to be in a more secure (well, speaking regarding re-unification) but smaller Northern Ireland.

What I never understood is why they have never held a county-by-county or constituency-by-constituency referendum on unification. Surely then when the majority Nationalist areas accept (or perhaps even reject) entry into the south then you’ve pulled most of the rug from beneath the P/R/C IRA and the INLA, satisfying most of their supporters and making Unionists happy to be in a more secure (well, speaking regarding re-unification) but smaller Northern Ireland.
because it isnt a case of it being split in half, with unionists in the east and nationalists in the west, its a patchwork....

I'm aware of that, but when you can take out whole counties and return them to where they wanna be.

I probably should have qualified that by stating that the only areas that would be accepted into the south would be those that bordered it in some shape or form. Obviously transferring parts of Belfast into the south wouldn't work...

I'm aware of that, but when you can take out whole counties and return them to where they wanna be.

I probably should have qualified that by stating that the only areas that would be accepted into the south would be those that bordered it in some shape or form. Obviously transferring parts of Belfast into the south wouldn't work...
i dont think you could even do it with whole counties, it would have to be split down to even smaller divisions than electoral wards

i imagine Northern Ireland would lose alot of Armagh, quite a bit of Tyrone, a fair bit of Fermanagh, some of Londonderry and some of Down. it would probably be about 2/3 of its size if it was only losing border areas

I'm aware of that, but when you can take out whole counties and return them to where they wanna be.

I probably should have qualified that by stating that the only areas that would be accepted into the south would be those that bordered it in some shape or form. Obviously transferring parts of Belfast into the south wouldn't work...It would look a bit like crystal creep (drattit, I forget the right term) between two metals, I suppose. Anyone who had no 'want to stay here' people inbetween them and the border would be absorbed into the side they wanted to be, and you could continue this process down to individual houses, I suppose. The border would end up fractal (with two-way movement, at different points along the existing border!).

(What happens when communities, even streets, start to force people to move so that they might be considered for integration across the nearing border?)

That's all silly, what I just said, but it's the image that came into my mind.

Goodnight all.

Because of the intermingled nature of the population, the only solution is self governance. Now, if Sinn Fein could stop murdering people and robbing banks for a few minutes, they could get on with helping run Northern Ireland.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Of course, it may be that we in the UK have the terrible truth shielded from us, but if that's the case then I'd be very interested to see the media sources that allege vote rigging and continuing oppression..

It was squashed pretty quickly here to. A member of the Florida Republican party was caught tampering with ballots. No charges filed (at least none publicized). The US Supreme Court also ordered a recount that was never done. It's the joy of the electoral college, they are not required to use a states votes to decide which canidate gets that states votes, they can ignore the popular vote if they choose to.

Yes. The IRA are bad, bad men for wanting their independance. Bad! So, logically, the French resistance of WWII were terrorists. As was the Norwegian Resistance and the Iraqi resistance force. And by that same logic, the people who fought against the British in the American war of Independance were terrorists too.

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear



What they are fighting for or about is not relevant to the question. They use terrorist tactics therefore they are terrorist.

Yes. The IRA are bad, bad men for wanting their independance. Bad! So, logically, the French resistance of WWII were terrorists. As was the Norwegian Resistance and the Iraqi resistance force. And by that same logic, the people who fought against the British in the American war of Independance were terrorists too.

The IRA have independance of southern ireland, northern ireland doesnt want independance. Also the IRA target civilians to spread terror where as the french resistance targeted the german military.

Hey, i live in norhtern ireland myself so i may have a better understanding of what life is like over here than some of you(i may not, u never knew) but as i was reading through this , i felt equeal amounts of admiration and disdain for several of the replys and coments. sorry if i am sunding self-righteous but some of the things said, to me were quite insulting, like when some one said that thre IRA were heroes, maube they are to you but its alot harder 2 think that when they have been murdering ur people. Maybe the IRA were heroes before the partition of Ireland but when they turned on half their organization for deciding 2 settle the unfication of ireland peacefully they crossed the line and over the troubles, there can be no way that they can be described as heroic, stinking cowards who let bombs do their work maybe but not heroes. Of couse of loyalist paramilllitaris are just as bad, maybe worse.
The British Goverment haven't fone great in the situation either. The Black and Tans became almost as bad as the IRA at times and there was one Bloody Sunday that was awful when after several promient prodestants had been murdered the army drove up to a gealic match and opened fire on the innocent crowd and teams because the cldn'tget at the murderers.
But that was in the past. There is no point dwelling on it unless it is 2 move the peace process along. I hold no grudges and I don't particlary mind if n.ireland become part of the U.k of Ireland. I am Irish but i am aslo a british citizen. In the end , all i want is 2 live in a country with a fair goverment and with peace, i don'tcare who gives it to me. And thank u for taking such an intest in us, what ever ur opinion, nice 2 know N.Irelands still considered important enough for discusiion :')Just a random point though, not all prodestants in N.ireland are scottish or have a lot of scottish blood in them, i myself have either gaelic-gaelic blood, or nordic-gaelic blood.

Yes but now the majority of people in n ireland want it to remain part f the united kingdom. Dont you think the majorities views should be respected over the violent minorities

Perhaps this problem wouldn't have existed at all without the invasion of another country? :mad:

Perhaps, if in 1917, after being *told* to end the "Irish Problem" by her allies, Britain had left as suggested, things would have turned out differently. :headbang:

Or maybe you just don't realize that you live in a country carved out of another by force. You probably are protestant and didn't mind the catholics using the back door either. :mp5:

The hatred built up from this will probably be here for generations yet. All because of an arrogant English Imperialistic ideal.

:sniper:

Perhaps this problem wouldn't have existed at all without the invasion of another country? :mad:

Perhaps, if in 1917, after being *told* to end the "Irish Problem" by her allies, Britain had left as suggested, things would have turned out differently. :headbang:

Or maybe you just don't realize that you live in a country carved out of another by force. You probably are protestant and didn't mind the catholics using the back door either. :mp5:

The hatred built up from this will probably be here for generations yet. All because of an arrogant English Imperialistic ideal.

:sniper:
way to vastly over simplify the issue, get several historical facts wrong, and to get the wrong end of the stick over the issues of the argument...

Perhaps this problem wouldn't have existed at all without the invasion of another country? :mad:

Perhaps, if in 1917, after being *told* to end the "Irish Problem" by her allies, Britain had left as suggested, things would have turned out differently. :headbang:

Or maybe you just don't realize that you live in a country carved out of another by force. You probably are protestant and didn't mind the catholics using the back door either. :mp5:

The hatred built up from this will probably be here for generations yet. All because of an arrogant English Imperialistic ideal.

:sniper:

Call imperialism an arrogant ideal but it shaped the western world, it helped form some of the greatest nations in the world.
Ireland is not completely composed of Catholics there are protestants there and they didnt want to be part of the republic of ireland that is why a northern ireland was formed. On paper the idea looked good, those who wanted a republic mostly live in the south so the south becomes a republic, those who want to remain part of the uk live in the north so they remain part of the uk.
People easily forget that the majority of the north dont want to unify with southern ireland

To those people from america that support or sympathise with the IRA (i know this is not all americans so please dont take offence). The IRA targets british citizens because it wants them out of ireland. How would you feel towards native americans who started using terrorist tactics (e.g. targeting civilians) to try and remove americans of european descent from north america because its a similar thing.

Now, if Sinn Fein could stop murdering people and robbing banks for a few minutes, they could get on with helping run Northern Ireland.

I know i havent posted in this thread for a few hours and may have missed something but just incase you didnt know, Gerry Adams has made a statement calling for the complete disarmment of the IRA and using politics as a sole platform for their cause. I know that we've suffered disappointment after break through build ups before, but the record shows that some sort of compliency will take place on their part. He called for a cease fire, weapons decommisioning, etc in the past, and they've obliged. I hope nothing changes in this fashion.
The republican movement can no longer be marred by the 'gun and ballot' image that bears no relevance in todays world. I'm keeping my fingers crossed we will finally see some results.
Sinn

Hey, i live in norhtern ireland myself so i may have a better understanding of what life is like over here than some of you(i may not, u never knew) but as i was reading through this , i felt equeal amounts of admiration and disdain for several of the replys and coments. sorry if i am sunding self-righteous but some of the things said, to me were quite insulting, like when some one said that thre IRA were heroes, maube they are to you but its alot harder 2 think that when they have been murdering ur people. Maybe the IRA were heroes before the partition of Ireland but when they turned on half their organization for deciding 2 settle the unfication of ireland peacefully they crossed the line and over the troubles, there can be no way that they can be described as heroic, stinking cowards who let bombs do their work maybe but not heroes. Of couse of loyalist paramilllitaris are just as bad, maybe worse.
The British Goverment haven't fone great in the situation either. The Black and Tans became almost as bad as the IRA at times and there was one Bloody Sunday that was awful when after several promient prodestants had been murdered the army drove up to a gealic match and opened fire on the innocent crowd and teams because the cldn'tget at the murderers.
But that was in the past. There is no point dwelling on it unless it is 2 move the peace process along. I hold no grudges and I don't particlary mind if n.ireland become part of the U.k of Ireland. I am Irish but i am aslo a british citizen. In the end , all i want is 2 live in a country with a fair goverment and with peace, i don'tcare who gives it to me. And thank u for taking such an intest in us, what ever ur opinion, nice 2 know N.Irelands still considered important enough for discusiion :')Just a random point though, not all prodestants in N.ireland are scottish or have a lot of scottish blood in them, i myself have either gaelic-gaelic blood, or nordic-gaelic blood.

I just read your post, and you sum it up perfectly. My sentiments exactly, as is what i've tried to convey earlier in this thread, and the many previous there have been since this time last year. I have an ultimate opinion on how i'd like things to turn out, but this must be sacrificed for peace and civil contentment.

In the end , all i want is 2 live in a country with a fair goverment and with peace, i don'tcare who gives it to me.
I have an ultimate opinion on how i'd like things to turn out, but this must be sacrificed for peace and civil contentment.Both completely agreed. Both sides now need to put the past behind them, and work towards a peaceful future for this country, and hopefully this time Sinn Fein's call for disarmament will be listened to.

To those that still think that all the killing in the name of freedom was worth it - however much you support(ed) the IRA, or INLA's, cause (or the cause of [insert loyalist paramilitary of your choice here]), I'm really quite sure you wouldn't have enjoyed living here in the '70s, '80s and even parts of the '90s. Seeing friends, family, colleagues and acquaintances murdered for having done nothing except having been born a particular religion or nationality. Being forced out of your home on a regular basis due to bomb scares. Fearing for your life as you walk down the street. Plus a hell of a lot more besides. Seriously, try living with it day-in day-out.

I'm not holding my breath, but hopefully we can now say cheerio to it once and for all.

Yes. The IRA are bad, bad men for wanting their independance. Bad! So, logically, the French resistance of WWII were terrorists. As was the Norwegian Resistance and the Iraqi resistance force. And by that same logic, the people who fought against the British in the American war of Independance were terrorists too.
No pet, a terrorist is someone who murders innocent civilians. The American revolutionaries were fighting a full-scale war against a military, same for the French resistance etc.

I know a couple of people have already explained what terrorism is but meh. Know your facts before you open your gob.

No pet, a terrorist is someone who murders innocent civilians. The American revolutionaries were fighting a full-scale war against a military, same for the French resistance etc.

I know a couple of people have already explained what terrorism is but meh. Know your facts before you open your gob.


That's as succinct a guideline as any I've seen on these forums.