NationStates Jolt Archive

the last time i tried this it got twisted by a bunch of sickminded atheists, so i'm gonna limit it to people who have some sort of morals this time. if u want help with anything, just ask. i would prefer to keep this restricted to christians only, to keep from arguments about whether God exists and such, but if u can be constructive, then i don't see y others couldn't post. for the record, i just finished my struggle with porn, and am struggling with other things now, so if u have any sincere advice that would be welcome. God bless.

Sincere advice would be to learn how to write. I am not trying to be depricating with that statement, only constructive. Please, for the betterment of intelligence and for the purposes of clarity, learn how to write full sentences with proper capitalization and spelling.

And also note that it doesn't take a God to be a moral person.

Not to be pedantic and...feed a troll, but atheists do have morals. And not just shady ones, either :D

sry, but i use msn too much, i do know how to speak, i just don't on the internet very much. i also apologize for my miswording, i know atheists can and do have morals, but i tend not to be impressed by those who get on these forums, and i'd like to be on the safe side, considering what happened to my last thread

sick mined atheist commie pink terroists baby killing monsters.

There have been numerous debates about athiests (man i hate that word, you'd mind if i bunch together all relgions and called you theists woulnt you) 'invading' relgious threads here.

Fact of the matter is this board is an amalagamtion of Communists Socalists, Christians Muslims, Jedi's Druids, hell you name it,

You make a thread on the board and eveyone has a right to post on it.


But yeah, people shoulnt instanlty resort to whether god exists or not. (allthough i am guilt of this)

Considering you basically said that sexual pleasure of any kind before marriage was a hellworthy tresspass, I am not surprised one iota that you were philosophically eviscerated on this forum.

Other than that, sure, have your little support group, but it'll beo n the Terrorist Watch List.

1. In the bible, it states that PI is exactly 3. However, we know that pi goes along with 3.141492658232 etc.

2. Noahs ark has the dimentions along 45*450. He gathers 2 of every animal. Now, that takes every animal, and every salt water fish. So, we go along the lines of, 50,000 animals? Which is probably way off. So lets see. Do the math. Thats less than a coffin for every critter. Poor Elephants.

3. Commandment one is, Thou shall not put any god before me. Something like that. Not, "Thou shall not kill." Just had to clarify that.

4. Direct translation from hebrew:
Jesus walks by water
Jesus was born by young women mary.

5. The pope states, evolution does NOT conflict with the bible.
5sA. If we started from two people, we would be messed up and inbred.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm

6. Those things you call sins? Are actually things that the Catholics did in order to speak out against the Romans.

6sA. 666 is the number of a Roman Govener added up (hebrew).
6sB. The Pentagram is the symbol of a scientific group that went against the church.
6sC. Easter is a PAGEN holiday. You worship a freaking bunny. That would be something you would worship for good harvest.
6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."

7. You believe in Creation. However, the bible also states that the Earth is in the center of the universe. However, Galileo stated that the Earth was not. Analogy: Creation = geocentric. Evolution = Heliocentric.
Creation should only be taught as a story in literature. Not in science.

8. Little do you know, getting married equates to more rights. Now, do you really want to takw away rights from a homosexual couple? Maybe IF married couples didn't have benefits under the US, I'd support you Right Wingers under, "protection of religion." Besides, it says in the Bible that having sexual relationships with a person of the same gender is a sin. Not getting married. Therefore, they are commiting a sin ANYWAYs.

Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.

hey alexandria, i'm a little bit curious. in which part of the bible it says that masturbation is illegal?

*snip*

Whoa down boy, that was a pretty intense all out attack there.

hey alexandria, i'm a little bit curious. in which part of the bible it says that masturbation is illegal?
it never says it's illegal, nor does it actually call it masturbation. sry, but it's one of those things we first need to be agreed that God exists and the Bible is truth before we can discuss it.

Whoa down boy, that was a pretty intense all out attack there.
Preemptive attack. Only one that preempts something that was actually going to happen.

it never says it's illegal, nor does it actually call it masturbation. sry, but it's one of those things we first need to be agreed that God exists and the Bible is truth before we can discuss it.

Start rebutting to my bible attacks. :sniper:

Or shall I claim victory?

it never says it's illegal, nor does it actually call it masturbation. sry, but it's one of those things we first need to be agreed that God exists and the Bible is truth before we can discuss it.

Ok...Assuming it all exists... Do you really want to live in a world where a ghost on a cloud keeps a record of your wanking habits?

it never says it's illegal, nor does it actually call it masturbation. sry, but it's one of those things we first need to be agreed that God exists and the Bible is truth before we can discuss it.
Now this is normally a cue for me to start launghing bibilical criticism attacks.

but ill resist.

So how can you know god hates masabation if its not in the bible.

1. In the bible, it states that PI is exactly 3. However, we know that pi goes along with 3.141492658232 etc.

2. Noahs ark has the dimentions along 45*450. He gathers 2 of every animal. Now, that takes every animal, and every salt water fish. So, we go along the lines of, 50,000 animals? Which is probably way off. So lets see. Do the math. Thats less than a coffin for every critter. Poor Elephants.

3. Commandment one is, Thou shall not put any god before me. Something like that. Not, "Thou shall not kill." Just had to clarify that.

4. Direct translation from hebrew:
Jesus walks by water
Jesus was born by young women mary.

5. The pope states, evolution does NOT conflict with the bible.
5sA. If we started from two people, we would be messed up and inbred.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm

6. Those things you call sins? Are actually things that the Catholics did in order to speak out against the Romans.

6sA. 666 is the number of a Roman Govener added up (hebrew).
6sB. The Pentagram is the symbol of a scientific group that went against the church.
6sC. Easter is a PAGEN holiday. You worship a freaking bunny. That would be something you would worship for good harvest.
6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."

7. You believe in Creation. However, the bible also states that the Earth is in the center of the universe. However, Galileo stated that the Earth was not. Analogy: Creation = geocentric. Evolution = Heliocentric.
Creation should only be taught as a story in literature. Not in science.

8. Little do you know, getting married equates to more rights. Now, do you really want to takw away rights from a homosexual couple? Maybe IF married couples didn't have benefits under the US, I'd support you Right Wingers under, "protection of religion." Besides, it says in the Bible that having sexual relationships with a person of the same gender is a sin. Not getting married. Therefore, they are commiting a sin ANYWAYs.

Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.
most of what u've stated about the Bible is untrue. those were the arks dimensions, but u must remember that the measurement was much different then than now. i'd like to point out that i am not catholic, and regard almost everything the catholic church has ever done as a disgrace and a shame to christians. i don't care when the holliday is, it's what we celibrate that's important. easter has been MADE apagan holliday, as has christmas, but i don't celebrate it as a pagan holliday, nor do i worship a stupid bunny. i've never seen the thing about PI, why are u clarifying the commandments? this is the shabbiest assault on my beliefs i've ever seen.

it never says it's illegal, nor does it actually call it masturbation. sry, but it's one of those things we first need to be agreed that God exists and the Bible is truth before we can discuss it.

How about we go for "I accept that you beleive the bible is truth, and accept that what you say as a follow on from that, you beleive to be true"?

I can appreciate where you're coming from in saying that you don't want this to degenerate into a "god doesn't exist" free for all, but you're doing nothing but encouraging that by not taking questions as they come.

Incidentally, as far as I'm aware, there's a passage in the bible that mentions someone "spilling their seed" and not into a woman if you get my drift, and that this angered god. Ergo masturbation became a sin. I'm not exacly clear on the specifics, but that's what I've heard in the past.

most of what u've stated about the Bible is untrue. those were the arks dimensions, but u must remember that the measurement was much different then than now. i'd like to point out that i am not catholic, and regard almost everything the catholic church has ever done as a disgrace and a shame to christians. i don't care when the holliday is, it's what we celibrate that's important. easter has been MADE apagan holliday, as has christmas, but i don't celebrate it as a pagan holliday, nor do i worship a stupid bunny. i've never seen the thing about PI, why are u clarifying the commandments? this is the shabbiest assault on my beliefs i've ever seen.

Yes it was quite a poor attack, but if im right, it states the dimensions were in cubits i think, and we know that was the average distance from the elbow to the tips of the fingures becuse the egyptians used it.

Not that big an ark is it.

[QUOTE=for the record, i just finished my struggle with porn, and am struggling with other things now, so if u have any sincere advice that would be welcome. God bless.[/QUOTE]


Can I have your old porn?

most of what u've stated about the Bible is untrue. those were the arks dimensions, but u must remember that the measurement was much different then than now. i'd like to point out that i am not catholic, and regard almost everything the catholic church has ever done as a disgrace and a shame to christians. i don't care when the holliday is, it's what we celibrate that's important. easter has been MADE apagan holliday, as has christmas, but i don't celebrate it as a pagan holliday, nor do i worship a stupid bunny. i've never seen the thing about PI, why are u clarifying the commandments? this is the shabbiest assault on my beliefs i've ever seen.

Read the bible little boy. Okay, so you've managed to drop PI. Look it up on Google. That attack stands. You say catholics are a disgrace. However, you must remember, every branch of Christianity started with Catholocism. I can attack you by saying, YOUR A HERETIC.

Oh, read the old testemate.

I clarify the commandments, because many Christians don't know it.

And IF YOU SAY THE BIBLE IS TRUTH, THAT MEANS EVERYTHING INSIDE IS TRUE. THEREFORE, ARK DIMENSIONS STAND. PI STANDS.

Oh, and if you havn't read anything about PI in the bible, it gives you a circle, and a diameter. Use math, and you get three. Sorry, thats a little...WRONG.

Nor have you stated anything against pope and creation. That attack stands.

knowing that God "hates" masturbation is based on something u guys won't accept unless ur christians, which ur not. when u put it like "some ghost in a cloud..." etc., no, i don't, but that's not what it is. i WOULD like to live in a world where all i have to do is ask and repent and i'll be given eternal life with a God who loves me more than i can imagine.

How about we go for "I accept that you beleive the bible is truth, and accept that what you say as a follow on from that, you beleive to be true"?

I can appreciate where you're coming from in saying that you don't want this to degenerate into a "god doesn't exist" free for all, but you're doing nothing but encouraging that by not taking questions as they come.

Incidentally, as far as I'm aware, there's a passage in the bible that mentions someone "spilling their seed" and not into a woman if you get my drift, and that this angered god. Ergo masturbation became a sin. I'm not exacly clear on the specifics, but that's what I've heard in the past.

Its what its degenerating into right now.

East Coast America, please put away your army of straw men. Or is it your intention to make non-religious people look petty?

Alexandria, as much as I appreciate your ability to be open about your struggles as a Christian, this is a poor place for seeking advice. This place has quite a few atheists who are very intolerant--call them "anti-theists" or "fundamentalist atheists" if you will. Not that such people have demonstrated any reason that any Christian should care what they think, but there's enough of them, and they've become so bold lately, that they'll end up drowning out any honest discussion.

Instead, you should probably talk with someone in your real life that you trust. If you don't have someone like that, I guess you can telegram me through NS and we can encourage each other through e-mail, if that's what you need.

I'll pray for you, brother.

hey really people. i support this christian guy. please don't turn this thread again into another flame thread because we have another one already.

in fact, this guy tried to make a thread where everybody could discuss and help him but nobody really helped but criticised him. i don't support non-wankism but if somebody does, i think we all should respect that and keep at least this thread free of insults.

if you want to flame, maybe the other thread is better one for you:
other topic about the same discussion, Free For All (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410531)

so now. Alexandria, i ask you to forgive our different ways of thinking and consider me a human as good and as bad as you are. now, could you tell me, because i'm honestly interested, in which part of the bible they say that masturbation shouldn't be done? i also belong to the church.

only by telling me about your religion can you help me convert. as the god said, spread the christianity.

knowing that God "hates" masturbation is based on something u guys won't accept unless ur christians, which ur not. when u put it like "some ghost in a cloud..." etc., no, i don't, but that's not what it is. i WOULD like to live in a world where all i have to do is ask and repent and i'll be given eternal life with a God who loves me more than i can imagine.

But would you tell me any way, id like to have a nice level headed discussion on it.

How about we go for "I accept that you beleive the bible is truth, and accept that what you say as a follow on from that, you beleive to be true"?

I can appreciate where you're coming from in saying that you don't want this to degenerate into a "god doesn't exist" free for all, but you're doing nothing but encouraging that by not taking questions as they come.

Incidentally, as far as I'm aware, there's a passage in the bible that mentions someone "spilling their seed" and not into a woman if you get my drift, and that this angered god. Ergo masturbation became a sin. I'm not exacly clear on the specifics, but that's what I've heard in the past.
thx for the help, i've never read that passage. i thought i was taking questions as they come, but i don't want to be answering questions along the lines of "is it a sin?" i came here to answer questions more like "i can't stop looking at porn. what should i do?" and nobody here seems the type to ask those kinds of questions.

East Coast America, please put away your army of straw men. Or is it your intention to make non-religious people look petty?

Alexandria, as much as I appreciate your ability to be open about your struggles as a Christian, this is a poor place for seeking advice. This place has quite a few atheists who are very intolerant--call them "anti-theists" or "fundamentalist atheists" if you will. Not that such people have demonstrated any reason that any Christian should care what they think, but there's enough of them, and they've become so bold lately, that they'll end up drowning out any honest discussion.

Instead, you should probably talk with someone in your real life that you trust. If you don't have someone like that, I guess you can telegram me through NS and we can encourage each other through e-mail, if that's what you need.

I'll pray for you, brother.

My intention is not to make religions people look petty.
My intention is to educate.
My intention is to bring you to the truth. That the bible is not totally correct.
I want you people to realize the truth.

How can you say the bible is all true, when it conflicts with other religions? Do you say that their wrong to? If you say they are right, then you are just contradicting yourself.

I want you people to realize, that the bible is a book of morals. Adam and Eve. Whats the moral? When a loud booming voice says no, don't do it.

hey really people. i support this christian guy. please don't turn this thread again into another flame thread because we have another one already.

in fact, this guy tried to make a thread where everybody could discuss and help him but nobody really helped but criticised him. i don't support non-wankism but if somebody does, i think we all should respect that and keep at least this thread free of insults.

if you want to flame, maybe the other thread is better one for you:
other topic about the same discussion, Free For All (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1227)

so now. Alexandria, i ask you to forgive our different ways of thinking and consider me a human as good and as bad as you are. now, could you tell me, because i'm honestly interested, in which part of the bible they say that masturbation is shouldn't be done. i' also belong to the church.

only by telling me about your religion can you help me convert. as the god said, spread the christianity.


I can agree with that.

Y'all have got an honest to gods not-completely-whacked-out christian here, that merely wants to return the favour and offer help to anyone that wants it. He's not trying to convert anybody, he's not preaching to you unless you ask him to. If you've got a serious question that you actually have problems understanding - spiritually as opposed to logically, then ask. Otherwise leave the guy alone.

You're giving atheistic people on this board a bad name by villifying him for being different, and actually nice.

My intention is not to make religions people look petty.
My intention is to educate.
My intention is to bring you to the truth. That the bible is not totally correct.
I want you people to realize the truth.

How can you say the bible is all true, when it conflicts with other religions? Do you say that their wrong to? If you say they are right, then you are just contradicting yourself.

I want you people to realize, that the bible is a book of morals. Adam and Eve. Whats the moral? When a loud booming voice says no, don't do it.

If you want to do that, go start your own thread and don't hijack this one.

hey really people. i support this christian guy. please don't turn this thread again into another flame thread because we have another one already.

in fact, this guy tried to make a thread where everybody could discuss and help him but nobody really helped but criticised him. i don't support non-wankism but if somebody does, i think we all should respect that and keep at least this thread free of insults.

if you want to flame, maybe the other thread is better one for you:
other topic about the same discussion, Free For All (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=1227)

so now. Alexandria, i ask you to forgive our different ways of thinking and consider me a human as good and as bad as you are. now, could you tell me, because i'm honestly interested, in which part of the bible they say that masturbation is shouldn't be done. i' also belong to the church.

only by telling me about your religion can you help me convert. as the god said, spread the christianity.
thx for the support, i appreciate it. i'd like to know y u want me to convert u if ur already part of the church, unless u consider urself a bad christian. as for the masturbation bit, besides the verse mentioned early, which i'd never heard of, i believe masturbation to be "sexual immorality", which is clearly described as a sin. i'd like to here wut u think about it.

Wow...um, twisted Atheists? Wow, well whoever they were should not of interfered with a religious congregation. But anyway, Atheists as a whole are not bad and you need to get a life.
:confused: :gundge:

thx for the support, i appreciate it. i'd like to know y u want me to convert u if ur already part of the church, unless u consider urself a bad christian. as for the masturbation bit, besides the verse mentioned early, which i'd never heard of, i believe masturbation to be "sexual immorality", which is clearly described as a sin. i'd like to here wut u think about it.

I'm pretty sure, the person who wrote that story was an absolute hornball. Not saying he was after he wrote it, but thats how it began. If I'm correct, he thought he was still commiting a sin no matter how much he prayed. So he gave up sex. From there, he felt as if his sin was washed away.

I can agree with that.

Y'all have got an honest to gods not-completely-whacked-out christian here, that merely wants to return the favour and offer help to anyone that wants it. He's not trying to convert anybody, he's not preaching to you unless you ask him to. If you've got a serious question that you actually have problems understanding - spiritually as opposed to logically, then ask. Otherwise leave the guy alone.

You're giving atheistic people on this board a bad name by villifying him for being different, and actually nice.
again, thx for the support. a "not-completely-whacked-out christian"? lol, that's the best name i've been called since someone said i was a Jesus freak. again, ty. God bless

the last time i tried this it got twisted by a bunch of sickminded atheists, so i'm gonna limit it to people who have some sort of morals this time. if u want help with anything, just ask. i would prefer to keep this restricted to christians only, to keep from arguments about whether God exists and such, but if u can be constructive, then i don't see y others couldn't post. for the record, i just finished my struggle with porn, and am struggling with other things now, so if u have any sincere advice that would be welcome. God bless.


I'm not going to argue your point with you. Just point out that I am a secular humanist (read atheist) and I have far stronger and better morals (by Christian standards) than most Christians I know.

Thank you for your time.

I like how the atheists are made out to be the trolls by some of the people in this topic when we are practically slapped in the face my his first sentance.

I'm pretty sure, the person who wrote that story was an absolute hornball. Not saying he was after he wrote it, but thats how it began. If I'm correct, he thought he was still commiting a sin no matter how much he prayed. So he gave up sex. From there, he felt as if his sin was washed away.
alright, that's kinda weird. but mind u, until Jesus died, there were some pretty weird ways of attoning for sin.

alright, that's kinda weird. but mind u, until Jesus died, there were some pretty weird ways of attoning for sin.

Jesus died because the current government basically stated, "Jesus is really becoming a political pain in the ass." And so he let the Romans kill him. :p

How about all of the NS atheists just back off and let him have his thread. I believe he asked for Christians and so if you are not Christian you are probably doing nothing but off-topic spamming.

I like how the atheists are made out to be the trolls by some of the people in this topic when we are practically slapped in the face my his first sentance.
i apologize for the slap, but i really am sick of atheists showing up and shredding honest conversation all the time. believe, i will think no worse of u as an atheist until u start acting like that.

Wait, my brain is trying to process this.. you want advise on how to cope with masturbating?

lol, dude, perhaps it wasn't just a mistake to make a topic, but to BE ON THE INTERNET! xP

I'm sorry i can't help you feel better, you're beliefs have convinced you that this natural occurance is immoral, when frankly I think there's better things to be concerned about then if God cares if you bust a nut or not. I mean really, you avegelynes are just like PETA. You complain about one thing while something tottaly worse is happening. I use to be a lacto-ovo vegetarian, then after PETA stomped all over politicians for cruelty towards animals but completely ignored the Terry Shaivo case..

If it's good enough for "a vegitable" it's good enough for the animals..

Radicals on both sides suck, they just don't offer any contribution to society..

Jesus died because the current government basically stated, "Jesus is really becoming a political pain in the ass." And so he let the Romans kill him. :p
i was about to explain some things, but i doubt if u'll listen. Jesus died that u and i might live, it's that simple. if u don't want to accept, go ahead, don't, and write to tell me wut hell is like after u die.

i apologize for the slap, but i really am sick of atheists showing up and shredding honest conversation all the time. believe, i will think no worse of u as an atheist until u start acting like that.

You may think what you want of me. Actually, I think you think I am a jackass. I really don't care. My intolerence was built by the people in power, who use religion as a way to give them a leverage against the other opponent.

I state the bible is wrong. But I will say that I can't prove whether or no god exists or doesn't. I'm agnostic. I'm not sure.

Wait, my brain is trying to process this.. you want advise on how to cope with masturbating?

lol, dude, perhaps it wasn't just a mistake to make a topic, but to BE ON THE INTERNET! xP

I'm sorry i can't help you feel better, you're beliefs have convinced you that this natural occurance is immoral, when frankly I think there's better things to be concerned about then if God cares if you bust a nut or not. I mean really, you avegelynes are just like PETA. You complain about one thing while something tottaly worse is happening. I use to be a lacto-ovo vegetarian, then after PETA stomped all over politicians for cruelty towards animals but completely ignored the Terry Shaivo case..

If it's good enough for "a vegitable" it's good enough for the animals..

Radicals on both sides suck, they just don't offer any contribution to society..
if u don't like it, then don't read it. but if u have nothing to contribute, then take the hint and LEAVE US ALONE!

thx for the support, i appreciate it. i'd like to know y u want me to convert u if ur already part of the church, unless u consider urself a bad christian. as for the masturbation bit, besides the verse mentioned early, which i'd never heard of, i believe masturbation to be "sexual immorality", which is clearly described as a sin. i'd like to here wut u think about it.

well i don't really want you to convert me because i think people are extremely difficult to convert to anything. the change can only come from yourself and people can only be told about things. well i'm part of the church but i've been thinking of quitting it because i don't feel the spirituality inside myself. so now i'm only paying the taxes for nothing. and i also believe that you can practice faith also without being part of any taxing organization.

i was just interested about the verse and where it could be found because i have also heard about that thing but i've never really seen it in my own eyes. much of what you hear is nowadays just pure propaganda so i think you should check the verses from the bible yourself.

i can't really agree with you in this case because my life experience and thoughts have made me an atheist. when using my sense i cannot see how god would fit into this world. anyway, i don't believe i'm 100% right nor that anybody else is, because you can never know what the truth really is if there is any, so i let everybody think the way they do and i also think they should cultivate their own style and ways of thinking as much as they want to and are able to so that everybody's individuality would be protected and developed.

1. In the bible, it states that PI is exactly 3. However, we know that pi goes along with 3.141492658232 etc.

Maybe he rounded off. You see when you round off, anything lower than 5 becomes 0.

2. Noahs ark has the dimentions along 45*450. He gathers 2 of every animal. Now, that takes every animal, and every salt water fish. So, we go along the lines of, 50,000 animals? Which is probably way off. So lets see. Do the math. Thats less than a coffin for every critter. Poor Elephants.

Only animals that existed. Not all animals we have now were around than.

3. Commandment one is, Thou shall not put any god before me. Something like that. Not, "Thou shall not kill." Just had to clarify that.

Not sure i understand this reference point, but thank you for reminding yourself.

4. Direct translation from hebrew:
Jesus walks by water
Jesus was born by young women mary.

Um false, he walked on it, sorry.

5. The pope states, evolution does NOT conflict with the bible.
5sA. If we started from two people, we would be messed up and inbred.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm

Agreedf, Catholic Popes are sometimes hypocrits.

6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."

False, it was around April, Easter in fact. See that, we may have the celebration with eggs, but Jesus was born than. Christmas I discovered was just done because St. Nickolas was a great man. People decided to change the meaning a little, but still the same.

7. You believe in Creation. However, the bible also states that the Earth is in the center of the universe. However, Galileo stated that the Earth was not. Analogy: Creation = geocentric. Evolution = Heliocentric.
Creation should only be taught as a story in literature. Not in science.

Wait, where does it say that? Earth is never stated center of universe. Catholics did though, but that has nothing to do with Christianity.
Protestants protested against catholic mistakes.

8. Little do you know, getting married equates to more rights. Now, do you really want to takw away rights from a homosexual couple? Maybe IF married couples didn't have benefits under the US, I'd support you Right Wingers under, "protection of religion." Besides, it says in the Bible that having sexual relationships with a person of the same gender is a sin. Not getting married. Therefore, they are commiting a sin ANYWAYs.

Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.

Except you don't know more, 1/2 your arguments are basedon lies or gossip.

Ah, well this part I understand republicans. They think (I think they do) that by giving marriage rights, they are condoning the acts of homosexual couples.

I'm against a national amedment, but personally it is a state's right issue.

i apologize for the slap, but i really am sick of atheists showing up and shredding honest conversation all the time. believe, i will think no worse of u as an atheist until u start acting like that.
As far as I know, you got ripped to shred by more than just atheists. There were a few honest-to-god Christians that saw your view as wrong and ripped into them to show that not all christian are that much repressed about sexuality.

Other are just refuting your points here since you started with a little flame-baiting.

Baiscally, if you wanted this thread to be for christians only, you should have not said disparaging comments about atheists.

You may think what you want of me. Actually, I think you think I am a jackass. I really don't care. My intolerence was built by the people in power, who use religion as a way to give them a leverage against the other opponent.
i don't think ur a jackass, i don't know u, so all i can presume is that ur a decent person, which u seem to be. i agree with u on the corruptness of those in power, in a real church there aren't any "positions of power". if u want a taste of wut God is REALLY like, talk to me again on NS

i don't think ur a jackass, i don't know u, so all i can presume is that ur a decent person, which u seem to be. i agree with u on the corruptness of those in power, in a real church there aren't any "positions of power". if u want a taste of wut God is REALLY like, talk to me again on NS

I'm talking politics.

I'll be nice, and back off for now. If you want a thread to help people. Just put it under, "Help each other." or something. Stay away from, bible is pure truth. You can keep the, god exists. Since no one can prove either side. But stay away from the bible part.

i don't think ur a jackass, i don't know u, so all i can presume is that ur a decent person, which u seem to be. i agree with u on the corruptness of those in power, in a real church there aren't any "positions of power". if u want a taste of wut God is REALLY like, talk to me again on NS

That sounds like a death-threat :D

That sounds like a death-threat :D

He already said, Send me a letter from hell. :rolleyes:

Besides, if god is all knowing. He knows where I'm going in the end.

well i don't really want you to convert me because i think people are extremely difficult to convert to anything. the change can only come from yourself and people can only be told about things. well i'm part of the church but i've been thinking of quitting it because i don't feel the spirituality inside myself. so now i'm only paying the taxes for nothing. and i also believe that you can practice faith also without being part of any taxing organization.

i was just interested about the verse and where it could be found because i have also heard about that thing but i've never really seen it in my own eyes. much of what you hear is nowadays just pure propaganda so i think you should check the verses from the bible yourself.

i can't really agree with you in this case because my life experience and thoughts have made me an atheist. when using my sense i cannot see how god would fit into this world. anyway, i don't believe i'm 100% right nor that anybody else is, because you can never know what the truth really is if there is any, so i let everybody think the way they do and i also think they should cultivate their own style and ways of thinking as much as they want to and are able to so that everybody's individuality would be protected and developed.
too true, too true...ur church charges TAX!?!?!? that's dumb. if u came to my church, i think u'd like it. i agree, u need no church to develop a relationship with God, but it sure does help. i agree, no-one is ever 100% right, and we won't be capable of that until we're with God in heaven. i would agree that everyone should be allowed to go there own way, except people die all the time who i knew for a fact weren't going to heaven, and it breaks my heart to think that i could have saved them but didn't, so i find it rather difficult to just stand by and watch people be "misled", as i see it. i'd like to talk to u more...
greenleaf_r@hotmail.com

He already said, Send me a letter from hell. :rolleyes:

Besides, if god is all knowing. He knows where I'm going in the end.
yes He does. if ur really that determined to go to hell, then have fun

yes He does. if ur really that determined to go to hell, then have fun

That means I can't change anything. I don't want to go to hell. By the extent of my belief, there is nothing that comes after death. Your dead. Your life ends. Its like falling asleep forever. You did your part in life, you kept the human race going.

You see, if god already knows, there is nothing I CAN do, because god already knows what I'm going to do. So technically, that's not free will.

I like how the atheists are made out to be the trolls by some of the people in this topic when we are practically slapped in the face my his first sentance.

He didn't make the comment about all atheists. He made the comment about the atheists that hijacked his other thread and used it to attack him and call him names. He has already said that he doesn't think all atheists have no moral, just the ones who refuse to let him have a discussion on what he wishes.

I'm talking politics.

I'll be nice, and back off for now. If you want a thread to help people. Just put it under, "Help each other." or something. Stay away from, bible is pure truth. You can keep the, god exists. Since no one can prove either side. But stay away from the bible part.
i'll try, but i have a problem with letting people believe false things. if i put it under "help each other" or something like that, then half the people who get on will complain "wut's wrong with porn?" but that's happening anyways...

He already said, Send me a letter from hell. :rolleyes:

Besides, if god is all knowing. He knows where I'm going in the end.

Make sure to use address it to the "masturbators section" of hell.

That means I can't change anything. I don't want to go to hell. By the extent of my belief, there is nothing that comes after death. Your dead. Your life ends. Its like falling asleep forever. You did your part in life, you kept the human race going.

You see, if god already knows, there is nothing I CAN do, because god already knows what I'm going to do. So technically, that's not free will.
it is free will, it's just that God know's the outcome of those free choices. u can do anything u want to, and u probably will. who knows, with a change of heart, u might even be lucky enough to watch from heaven as i go to hell.....anything is possible!

it is free will, it's just that God know's the outcome of those free choices. u can do anything u want to, and u probably will. who knows, with a change of heart, u might even be lucky enough to watch from heaven as i go to hell.....anything is possible!

However, god already knows what choices your going to make. Basically, god can come down and give me an envelope with everything I am going to do.

However, god already knows what choices your going to make. Basically, god can come down and give me an envelope with everything I am going to do.
ya, so what? He won't change those decisions for u, as much as He probably would like to..

However, god already knows what choices your going to make. Basically, god can come down and give me an envelope with everything I am going to do.
u seem to have alot of faith for an atheist...lol

ya, so what? He won't change those decisions for u, as much as He probably would like to..


You're missing the point (I think). If God already knows what you are doing to do, then its alread decided, ergo you don't have any choice in the matter and can't change.

As far as I know, you got ripped to shred by more than just atheists. There were a few honest-to-god Christians that saw your view as wrong and ripped into them to show that not all christian are that much repressed about sexuality.

Other are just refuting your points here since you started with a little flame-baiting.

Baiscally, if you wanted this thread to be for christians only, you should have not said disparaging comments about atheists.

You mean like the other thread he created that got hijacked. He didn't flame-bait in there. He was basically asking that those same people not hijack this same thread.

too true, too true...ur church charges TAX!?!?!? that's dumb. if u came to my church, i think u'd like it. i agree, u need no church to develop a relationship with God, but it sure does help. i agree, no-one is ever 100% right, and we won't be capable of that until we're with God in heaven. i would agree that everyone should be allowed to go there own way, except people die all the time who i knew for a fact weren't going to heaven, and it breaks my heart to think that i could have saved them but didn't, so i find it rather difficult to just stand by and watch people be "misled", as i see it. i'd like to talk to u more...
greenleaf_r@hotmail.com

your church doesn't tax you? oh. i think all the state churches tax you or at least cost you some annual money. basically, that's really logical, since the god says that we should help the poor and give our tenths to poor people. so the money is used to administrate the church and spread the message of christianity and also to help poor people in foreign countries.

what you said about your reasons of spreading the faith makes sense. anyway i have this other kind of opinion because i try to be very optimistic.

christianity says that i'm going to go to hell, because i don't believe in jesus christ.

i use to say that then i'm just glad i get to go to the same place as all my moslim friends.

i like that sentence, anyway, that also includes a paradox: moslims think that they go to heaven and i go to hell because i don't believe in Allah and that Mohammed was his greatest prophet, so in fact, i guess i can't get to the same place with them, which leds me to the same place as all the other christians. so in the end, we'll meet in after world also Alexandria.

Anyway, personally i think all those gods are the same thing and in fact there shouldn't even be judaism, christianity and moslim religion as different religions. i think they all believe in the same god. that's why i don't recommend the books or the congregation but to find the god by yourself.

btw if you want to contact me, please use the game's telegram system because i think it's far more handy for me. my country's name is Liberaregno.

you guys are tools.

yes, all of you.

Alex, why oh why did you attempt to create a serious thread on the nationsates forum. It is rare that anyone ever has anything constructive to say. Most people who wonder these forums are small minded and arrogont and are not willing to consider anothers point of view. Most arguments reveal nothing save for the vast pool of ignorance that exists within the general populice. Nobody wishes to learn! You should have expected the outcome and refrained from posting in the first place.

Oh and Eastern Coast you have a very limited understanding of the bible or the christian faith. You've taken a few isolated ideas and tried to tried to merge them together into some sort of cohesive and convincing attack against the christian faith. If you wish to educate yourself I will be happy to continue this argument. If you wish to spurt nonense and insult me, then do so, but do so in the knowledge that this will only go to re-inforce your quest for ignorance and wouldnt that be ironic considering that 'Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible'.

Oh and just for the record I'm not a Christian, I'm Agnostic.

You're missing the point (I think). If God already knows what you are doing to do, then its alread decided, ergo you don't have any choice in the matter and can't change.
that's not true. it's not already decided, God just knows how it will be decided. u have all the choice in the matter, ur the only one who can change ur decisions. it's going to be decided, but by YOU, not by anyone else. it's a difficult concept to grasp, for some

ya, so what? He won't change those decisions for u, as much as He probably would like to..

Okay, so if God is all knowing, and I make a radically different choice, that means god is wrong. You can refute this by saying god isn't all knowing or all powerful.

You can't know whether or not he has changed my life. Maybe I was here to change America for a more tolerent (even though I'm not), and a less corrupt society. Maybe this is what god made me do. Or maybe, I was Robespierre in a past life, and I am only chess piece to make the world a better place.

And yes, I do believe that everybody is there to make the world a better place.

that's not true. it's not already decided, God just knows how it will be decided. u have all the choice in the matter, ur the only one who can change ur decisions. it's going to be decided, but by YOU, not by anyone else. it's a difficult concept to grasp, for some

Yes, but if god knows the outcome of all evens, and then condems us knowing what we are going to do.

Well is that not a bit wrong, if you know a person was going to choose to commit a crime, would you not stop them.

that's not true. it's not already decided, God just knows how it will be decided. u have all the choice in the matter, ur the only one who can change ur decisions. it's going to be decided, but by YOU, not by anyone else. it's a difficult concept to grasp, for some


Yeah, I can tell its difficult for some, but I'm not going to argue the point.

You can't know whether or not he has. Maybe I was here to change America for a more tolerent (even though I'm not), and a less corrupt society. Maybe this is what god made me do. Or maybe, I was Robespierre in a past life, and I am only chess piece to make the world a better place.

And yes, I do believe that everybody is there to make the world a better place.
Um...

he killed A LOT of people, im not saying i dont agree with him

just he went a bit nuts towards the end.

Um...

he killed A LOT of people, im not saying i dont agree with him

just he went a bit nuts towards the end.

Okay, on the Robes Pierre thing. He stabalized france. +. He killed alot of people. -

Hitler. Okay, I don't like him. But I will say something positive about him.
He killed millions of jews. Bad
He was a dictator. Bad
He got America out of the depression, and we became a super power.

your church doesn't tax you? oh. i think all the state churches tax you or at least cost you some annual money. basically, that's really logical, since the god says that we should help the poor and give our tenths to poor people. so the money is used to administrate the church and spread the message of christianity and also to help poor people in foreign countries.

what you said about your reasons of spreading the faith makes sense. anyway i have this other kind of opinion because i try to be very optimistic.

christianity says that i'm going to go to hell, because i don't believe in jesus christ.

i use to say that then i'm just glad i get to go to the same place as all my moslim friends.

i like that sentence, anyway, that also includes a paradox: moslims think that they go to heaven and i go to hell because i don't believe in Allah and that Mohammed was his greatest prophet, so in fact, i guess i can't get to the same place with them, which leds me to the same place as all the other christians. so in the end, we'll meet in after world also Alexandria.

Anyway, personally i think all those gods are the same thing and in fact there shouldn't even be judaism, christianity and moslim religion as different religions. i think they all believe in the same god. that's why i don't recommend the books or the congregation but to find the god by yourself.

btw if you want to contact me, please use the game's telegram system because i think it's far more handy for me. my country's name is Liberaregno.
i like most of that. as for the "giving" the Bible states rather clearly in corinthians(i forgot where) that God loves a cheerful giver, so all donation is voluntary. u give when u want, if u want, how much u want, and it goes to what u want. we're a little bit in debt, but we still manage to raise about 1.5 million (cdn) a year. i don't want to contact u, i'm just giving u the option to contact me. if u prefer NS, then telegram Alexandria Quatriem.

Okay. This I actually want answered. I think it says that if I'm not baptized or something, I go to hell because original sin hasn't been washed away. But doesn't this basically damn everybody except Christians to hell?

Okay, so if God is all knowing, and I make a radically different choice, that means god is wrong. You can refute this by saying god isn't all knowing or all powerful.

You can't know whether or not he has changed my life. Maybe I was here to change America for a more tolerent (even though I'm not), and a less corrupt society. Maybe this is what god made me do. Or maybe, I was Robespierre in a past life, and I am only chess piece to make the world a better place.

And yes, I do believe that everybody is there to make the world a better place.
but u see, if u DO do something unexpected, God already knew. He hasn't changed ur life, all He's done is prompted u to do so, even if u haven't noticed. i'm not going to argue about this anymore.

Couple of points:
Only animals that existed. Not all animals we have now were around than.

In fact, there were more animals back then since some have become extinct since then...

Um false, he walked on it, sorry.

Depends on how you translate it. The translation could have been walked besides the water.

False, it was around April, Easter in fact. See that, we may have the celebration with eggs, but Jesus was born than. Christmas I discovered was just done because St. Nickolas was a great man. People decided to change the meaning a little, but still the same.

While I agree that the exact date is not as important as the significance, Easter was made to coincide with a pagan holiday.

Ah, well this part I understand republicans. They think (I think they do) that by giving marriage rights, they are condoning the acts of homosexual couples.

I'm against a national amedment, but personally it is a state's right issue.
As soon as the federal government gave some power to married people, it becomes a federal issue. Remove all the benefits of being married from the law and we'll understand you don't want Gay marriage. But as long a the spouse has power of attorney upon being married, the Gay will fight for it.

Yes, but if god knows the outcome of all evens, and then condems us knowing what we are going to do.

Well is that not a bit wrong, if you know a person was going to choose to commit a crime, would you not stop them.
that's the way we work, but God loves us too much to do that, to remove our free will.

I have a reccomendation. If you want serious discussion on avoiding masturbation, go to www.christianity.com and ask them the same question. I believe they have a section dedicated to giving such advice and you will find many people who agree with you there and will not flame you in the least.

I don't consider it a healthy attitude, but hey, I'm not here to change your mind, now am I?

that's the way we work, but God loves us too much to do that, to remove our free will.
but our free will is what condems us.

would it not be loving to remove it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastern Coast America
1. In the bible, it states that PI is exactly 3. However, we know that pi goes along with 3.141492658232 etc.



Maybe he rounded off. You see when you round off, anything lower than 5 becomes 0.

Quote:
2. Noahs ark has the dimentions along 45*450. He gathers 2 of every animal. Now, that takes every animal, and every salt water fish. So, we go along the lines of, 50,000 animals? Which is probably way off. So lets see. Do the math. Thats less than a coffin for every critter. Poor Elephants.



Only animals that existed. Not all animals we have now were around than.

Quote:
3. Commandment one is, Thou shall not put any god before me. Something like that. Not, "Thou shall not kill." Just had to clarify that.



Not sure i understand this reference point, but thank you for reminding yourself.

Quote:
4. Direct translation from hebrew:
Jesus walks by water
Jesus was born by young women mary.



Um false, he walked on it, sorry.

Quote:
5. The pope states, evolution does NOT conflict with the bible.
5sA. If we started from two people, we would be messed up and inbred.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm



Agreedf, Catholic Popes are sometimes hypocrits.

Quote:
6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."



False, it was around April, Easter in fact. See that, we may have the celebration with eggs, but Jesus was born than. Christmas I discovered was just done because St. Nickolas was a great man. People decided to change the meaning a little, but still the same.

Quote:
7. You believe in Creation. However, the bible also states that the Earth is in the center of the universe. However, Galileo stated that the Earth was not. Analogy: Creation = geocentric. Evolution = Heliocentric.
Creation should only be taught as a story in literature. Not in science.



Wait, where does it say that? Earth is never stated center of universe. Catholics did though, but that has nothing to do with Christianity.
Protestants protested against catholic mistakes.

Quote:
8. Little do you know, getting married equates to more rights. Now, do you really want to takw away rights from a homosexual couple? Maybe IF married couples didn't have benefits under the US, I'd support you Right Wingers under, "protection of religion." Besides, it says in the Bible that having sexual relationships with a person of the same gender is a sin. Not getting married. Therefore, they are commiting a sin ANYWAYs.

Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.



Except you don't know more, 1/2 your arguments are basedon lies or gossip.

Ah, well this part I understand republicans. They think (I think they do) that by giving marriage rights, they are condoning the acts of homosexual couples.

I'm against a national amedment, but personally it is a state's right issue.


continuing the responses given:

1. Rounding does happen. It was definately quite common.

2. also a cubit was not the length for the fingertips to the eyes (i think thats what you had said...) it was aproximately the hight of a six foot man. does that make your boat big enough?

3. Good point, but how is that relevent? Thou shall not COMMIT MURDER is still a commandment and should still be followed.

4. learn the greek it was writen in before you start trying to refute translations. the NT was greek mostly some hebrew and some arabic. It does state specificly that he walked ON the water.

5. Evolution on a micro scale has no conflict with the bible, that would explain Mr. Sword's animals that existed now but those that were arround then statement.

6. whoa now your both wrong on this one, Easter in fact was chosen as a move away from the passover feast by the early christians, who by the way were NOT catholic (catholicism grew from a mysticism sect of the early church) easter was chosen as the date to celebrate His sacrifice for us. Christmas, the traditional day for His birth celebration was also taken as a date as is stated because it was already a holliday, nothing wrong with that. We acctualy should assume that He was born arround late spring to early summer because that would be a likely time to have a census.

7.There is nowhere that says that Earth is the center of the universe, Just that God created and controls it all.

8.not gonna touch the politics since I'm not fully informed on that matter at the moment, been busy with work and havent gotten caught up with the news.


the fact is no one knows all there is to know about anything, some have chosen religion as the means of finding this information and knowledge, others stick to science. I've chosen both to a point and am proud to say that.

Okay. This I actually want answered. I think it says that if I'm not baptized or something, I go to hell because original sin hasn't been washed away. But doesn't this basically damn everybody except Christians to hell?
here comes the complicated bit. it does say that, but it's kinda weird. only those who believe and trust in Christ and repent of their sins will go to heaven, that's the only requirement. baptism is simply expression of this faith before an audience. any person who is a true christian will get baptized. yes, it basically does condemn everyone else to hell, but that's happened anyways. seems rather intolerant, but if u read the Bible, u'll see that the scale is tipped alot more in our favor than against us.

Okay. This I actually want answered. I think it says that if I'm not baptized or something, I go to hell because original sin hasn't been washed away. But doesn't this basically damn everybody except Christians to hell?
That would fall under Organized Church nonsense...

I think that if you ask around more liberal minded churches you'll find that God is welcomming of all it's children as long as they do good life and don't do some basic atrocities that are found in almost all religions, like killing.

Alexandria, of course you're going to get flamed if you go on about how sick-minded and amoral atheists are.

Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.
Proof?

but our free will is what condems us.

would it not be loving to remove it
i think so, but i can only assume that God disagree's. i don't have all the answers, i'm not God.

Imagine it like this. Original Sin is a gorge. you are on one side. God is on the other. Bapstism is bringing one into the christian faith. In effect when one is baptised they are saying I belive in Jesus and what he did for me. Jesus is the bridge across the gorge. His cruxifiction and ressurection occured in order to remove sin. Thus without believing in Jesus i.e without baptism one is seperated from God. Hell is effectively an existence without God. Although some argue the bible more literally. So yes you are bound to hell if you are not baptised. It should be noted however that many images of hell were dreamed up to intimidate pagans into beliving in the Christian faith . Note the resemblance of Pan (a pagan God) to the conventional image of the devil. So most peoples idea of hell is pretty way out in my opinion, but that my opinion. Not fact.

Alexandria, of course you're going to get flamed if you go on about how sick-minded and amoral atheists are.


Proof?

Did you know that Homosexuality was labled a sin because the Romans were really goin at it with each other?

Did you know that Homosexuality was labled a sin because the Romans were really goin at it with each other?


What was the point of that? How about homosexuality was a sim before the romans existed!!!!! try Sodom and Grimorah. Get your facts strait befor flaming.

Alexandria, of course you're going to get flamed if you go on about how sick-minded and amoral atheists are.


Proof?
i wasn't. i was going on about how sickminded and immoral the atheists who jacked my first thread are. these ones seem to be much nicer.

Its labbeled a sin because homosexuality is not in Gods design. Sex is meant for pro-creation and within marriage as a means of expressing love. Please note once again I am not Christian.

Imagine it like this. Original Sin is a gorge. you are on one side. God is on the other. Bapstism is bringing one into the christian faith. In effect when one is baptised they are saying I belive in Jesus and what he did for me. Jesus is the bridge across the gorge. His cruxifiction and ressurection occured in order to remove sin. Thus without believing in Jesus i.e without baptism one is seperated from God. Hell is effectively an existence without God. Although some argue the bible more literally. So yes you are bound to hell if you are not baptised. It should be noted however that many images of hell were dreamed up to intimidate pagans into beliving in the Christian faith . Note the resemblance of Pan (a pagan God) to the conventional image of the devil. So most peoples idea of hell is pretty way out in my opinion, but that my opinion. Not fact.
i agree with all of it. very nice ideas, although the gorge and bridge is extremely common

What was the point of that? How about homosexuality was a sim before the romans existed!!!!! try Sodom and Grimorah. Get your facts strait befor flaming.

How about Catholocism started to form during the Roman times?

i think so, but i can only assume that God disagrees. i don't have all the answers, I’m not God.

Here is the problem with conformed religion, because it has said god is benevolent, yet my argument asserts he is not. Surely a truly benevolent god would allow us to exist in ignorant bliss. So we don't know why he gave us free will.

So how do we know he hates masturbation, because the bible told us, well the bible told us he was benevolent, can we take the bible at face value.

No

It’ is simple a highly theological work of literature trying to understand what god and jesus is and why, not an exact guide line on how to live, that idea is simply remnants carried over from the torah and the O.T, which the N.T in principle completely disregards the need for .

What was the point of that? How about homosexuality was a sim before the romans existed!!!!! try Sodom and Grimorah. Get your facts strait befor flaming.
And pray tell, where is homosexuality mentionned in the story of Soddom and Gommoreah?

And pray tell, where is homosexuality mentionned in the story of Soddom and Gommoreah?

Leviticus 18:22

i think so, but i can only assume that God disagree's. i don't have all the answers, i'm not God.

What kind of an asshole condemns more than half of earth to hell?

I think homoseuxality is mentioned in leviticus.
What dosent leviticus ban though. I think it even sais passing waste is evil at one point.

It really gets me why christians use the o.T espeically the torah bits like that.

did not jesus destroy the need for it.

And pray tell, where is homosexuality mentionned in the story of Soddom and Gommoreah?

I think the story of Soddom and Gommoreah goes something like this. Angels come from heaven, and the town wants to have a big mass orgy with them. However, a person stands up and says, "You can have my daughter, but please don't rape the angels."

I'm not sure how this relates to homosexuality.

the last time i tried this it got twisted by a bunch of sickminded atheists, so i'm gonna limit it to people who have some sort of morals this time. if u want help with anything, just ask. i would prefer to keep this restricted to christians only, to keep from arguments about whether God exists and such, but if u can be constructive, then i don't see y others couldn't post. for the record, i just finished my struggle with porn, and am struggling with other things now, so if u have any sincere advice that would be welcome. God bless.

Love to join! Not very religous in the real world, but a thread on abortion got me mad at a lot of people when I claimed a fetus is a creature of God and shouldn't be killed by any means, basiclly (?) anyway.

PS: Sometimes I don't remember how a word is spelled so if I spell something wrong without the (?) behind it, just tell me how to spell it if I don't catch it.

I think homoseuxality is mentioned in leviticus.
That one I know. It has been debunked from here to Austria. It's usually the first one the anti-gay cite. I'm asking about Soddom's link to homosexuality.

The Bible is meant to be the 'Word Of God'. Whether you believe that or not is up you. So as a christian you would obviously want to listen to the word of God. Thus most Christians adhere to the bible. Its not because they have to, it because they want to. If you love your God you will want to please him. For a non Christian the bible holds no relevance because there is no drive to adhere to what is said within its pages. One does not belive it to be the word of God.

Leviticus is really just a history of what ancient Jews had to live with.
When Jesus came, He brought the New Law.
Basically, if you love your neighbor (everyone) as yourself, and obey God's word, then everything will fall into place.

I'm not a christian, more a pagan if i worship something its something i can see feel touch whatever, athieists are not all scum of the earth a few of my good freinds are athiests but i'm sorry to say non are christian as everytime i have said nope i'm pagan they try to convert or say 'how do you know its not evil' give me a break.
and i'm sorry to say but by saying about atheists that they were bad whatever you did invite flaming sorry but its true. nxt this is a forum hat people of every creed race and colour use you should get on a different one if you want to segregate yourselves. but then with most people into religion and a beleif trying to change their way of thinkin is like :headbang:
one fact i will say religion has started more wars than any reason. :mp5:
ps i grieve with many that the pope is dead and i hope we get an understanding pope again

Leviticus is really just a history of what ancient Jews had to live with.
When Jesus came, He brought the New Law.
Basically, if you love your neighbor (everyone) as yourself, and obey God's word, then everything will fall into place.

Exaclty thats why i disprove of the fire and brime stone, evangelical movement.

Becuase quite simply its not jesus, the only reason the catholic church included the O.t in the good news bible, IMO, is becuase they liked the control it gave them.

What was the point of that? How about homosexuality was a sim before the romans existed!!!!! try Sodom and Grimorah. Get your facts strait befor flaming.
Soddom and Gommorah were smited for being inhospitable, not for homosexuality.

Soddom and Gommorah were smited for being inhospitable, not for homosexuality.

You know, I've seen that point made on multiple threads--to some of the same people still using the same tired arguements here in this thread. What I have never seen, however, is one of them respond to the point to tell why it is wrong.

I've seen the translations explained, the history retold, everything a logical person could want (and could respond to if they but tried!) but I've never seen anyone on the opposing side do anything more than just ignore the point.

I really would like to see someone who can!

What was the point of that? How about homosexuality was a sim before the romans existed!!!!! try Sodom and Grimorah. Get your facts strait befor flaming.
The sin of Sodom and Gommorah was inhospitality. The word "know" is a translation of the Hebrew word for "know", not a euphemistic translation for "to have sex with".

2. also a cubit was not the length for the fingertips to the eyes (i think thats what you had said...) it was aproximately the hight of a six foot man. does that make your boat big enough?

Wrong! A cubit is the distance form the fingertips to the elbow, or about 18 inches.

Wrong! A cubit is the distance form the fingertips to the elbow, or about 18 inches.
Specifically, the distance between the Pharoahs fingertips and elbow, making it a somewhat variable unit.

@ Cognitive Superios, even if a cubit was twenty feet, it wouldn't be big enough to fit two of every species in it. Have you any idea how many species there are? Perhaps you should rethink your name.

Specifically, the distance between the Pharoahs fingertips and elbow, making it a somewhat variable unit.

@ Cognitive Superios, even if a cubit was twenty feet, it wouldn't be big enough to fit two of every species in it. Have you any idea how many species there are? Perhaps you should rethink your name.


And then there are the issues of the species that exist on other continents that were not known during that time. How could Noah have gathered them?

Specifically, the distance between the Pharoahs fingertips and elbow, making it a somewhat variable unit.

@ Cognitive Superios, even if a cubit was twenty feet, it wouldn't be big enough to fit two of every species in it. Have you any idea how many species there are? Perhaps you should rethink your name.
assuming the Christian theory that all species currently alive were alive at the time of Noah (no evolution, no new species arrising, etc), the biomass of two of each insect species alone would have capsized the Ark.

also, i have an odd question: according to the story, Noah was supposed to take two of EVERY creature, right? does that include sea-going creatures? what about freshwater animals and fish, which could not have survived in a seawater flood? and what about the plant life necessary to support these organisms? did God re-create all the plant life after the flood receded, or did Noah bring the plants on the Ark too?

assuming the Christian theory that all species currently alive were alive at the time of Noah (no evolution, no new species arrising, etc), the biomass of two of each insect species alone would have capsized the Ark.

also, i have an odd question: according to the story, Noah was supposed to take two of EVERY creature, right? does that include sea-going creatures? what about freshwater animals and fish, which could not have survived in a seawater flood? and what about the plant life necessary to support these organisms? did God re-create all the plant life after the flood receded, or did Noah bring the plants on the Ark too?
This is why most of the Bible just shouldn't be taken literally.

This is why most of the Bible just shouldn't be taken literally.
and how were all the animals of the world kept alive on a single vessel, seeing as how many animals require environmental conditions that would kill other animals?

and how is it possible that humans who believe in the Flood myth have managed to avoid being eaten by bears for so many centuries?

and how were all the animals of the world kept alive on a single vessel, seeing as how many animals require environmental conditions that would kill other animals?

and how is it possible that humans who believe in the Flood myth have managed to avoid being eaten by bears for so many centuries?
The bears have classy taste.

Okay, this has become quite a discussion, has it not. I think I will try to add my piece, though I know that some, because of their presuppositions, will not care.

First, Alexandria Quatriem, if you want to have a serious discussion about masturbation, I am willing to talk to you about it. I have counselled others on that same subject. I am a pastor, and hopefully I can help you, though it really is a sticky subject (Wow, that pun was not intended.). My e-mail address is jbcora@yahoo.com. Feel free to e-mail me anytime, and I will try to find a better way to communicate from there.

Okay, on to the discussion:

Originally Posted by Liberaregno
in fact, this guy tried to make a thread where everybody could discuss and help him but nobody really helped but criticised him. i don't support non-wankism but if somebody does, i think we all should respect that and keep at least this thread free of insults.
Thank you for your civility.

Alexandria, i ask you to forgive our different ways of thinking and consider me a human as good and as bad as you are.
Romans 3:23, my friend. I am no better than you. Nor is anyone else.

now, could you tell me, because i'm honestly interested, in which part of the bible they say that masturbation is shouldn't be done. i' also belong to the church.
People do actually have different views on this. The main passage I have come across is I Corinthians 7. This is the passage that essentially says that the wife's body is not hers, but the husband's. Likewise, the husband's body is not his, but his wife's. As God does not live in time (If he did, then time would control Him, and He would not be preimminent, thus being controlled by something higher than Himself.), this transcends time. What does that mean? Essentially, my body is not my own to do with as I please. It is that of my spouse, even if we are not yet married. Another is from the Sermon on the Mount/Plain (depending on the book and translation) in Matthew 5:27, where Jesus points out that lusting after a woman is just as bad as sleeping with her (not a popular concept today). I have yet to find a person able to masturbate without ever thinking of a woman. Honestly, I truly believe that these are the major issues. (1) Your sexuality is not yours, but your wife's, and (2) the thought that go with masturbation are wrong.

only by telling me about your religion can you help me convert. as the god said, spread the Christianity.
I would dare not force you to take my words as absolute truth, as I am sure there is some part of my theology that is incorrect, but I am glad you are at least interested. I would be more than happy to talk to you as well. Like I said to Alexandria, my e-mail address is jbcora@yahoo.com. From there, I can try to set up a better form of communication than e-mail.

well i don't really want you to convert me because i think people are extremely difficult to convert to anything.
I do not plan on trying to convert you. I hate the word convert. I would simply like to help you as you process through things. I am not planning on making you a zombie that just regurgitates information it is fed. I always feel like that is what a "convert" is.

the change can only come from yourself and people can only be told about things.
Exactly. I hope that from what I can offer, you will find something fulfilling in Christ (Notice, I did not say church.)

well i'm part of the church but i've been thinking of quitting it because i don't feel the spirituality inside myself.
Then maybe it's not the faith, but the local church that is the problem. Not an assertation, but a possibility.

so now i'm only paying the taxes for nothing. and i also believe that you can practice faith also without being part of any taxing organization.
I whole-heartedly agree. I certainly don't want your money. A church worth its own doctrine would not demand it, either.

much of what you hear is nowadays just pure propaganda so i think you should check the verses from the bible yourself.
Absolutely. The last thing I would want is a church that does nothing but listen to me and take my word for it. Christians should not just be spoon fed their whole lives. If you read the end of Hebrews 5 and the beginning of Hebrews 6, Paul clearly says that is not the way Christians should opperate. Unfortunately, it is all too common.

when using my sense i cannot see how god would fit into this world.
I would like to hear your views on this. I honestly cannot see, through observing natural elements, how some of the things around us can be anything but designed. However, I am interested in your thoughts.

Originally posted by Kusarii
He's not trying to convert anybody, he's not preaching to you unless you ask him to. If you've got a serious question that you actually have problems understanding - spiritually as opposed to logically, then ask. Otherwise leave the guy alone.

You're giving atheistic people on this board a bad name by villifying him for being different, and actually nice.
Thank you for being civil. Even if Theists and Atheists do not agree, it is shameful if we cannot avoid trying to take cheap, childish shots at each other.

Originally Posted by Eastern Coast America
1. In the bible, it states that PI is exactly 3. However, we know that pi goes along with 3.141492658232 etc.
In fact, there is another likelyhood rather than rounding.

You are referring to the "molten sea" in Solomon's Temple. I am, then, willing to investigate it with you.

The text says that it was "ten cubits from brim to brim," likely meaning from the edge of the rim around the "molten sea," hence the word "brim." Now, it also says that "a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." What is "it?" Well, if I go by the context and take the previous verse, then "it" is "the molten sea" and not the "brim." Thus, the circumference was around the sea, itself, or the inside of this rim. The diameter is from outside one end of the rim to outside the opposite end. If you do the math, using what we know to be pi, that means that the rim was about four inches.

Make sense? I hope I was clear.

2. Noahs ark has the dimentions along 45*450. He gathers 2 of every animal. Now, that takes every animal, and every salt water fish. So, we go along the lines of, 50,000 animals? Which is probably way off. So lets see. Do the math. Thats less than a coffin for every critter. Poor Elephants.
Your measurments are correct. The ark was about 450 feet x 75 feet x 45 feet. Tight quarters? Likely. I am doubting there were subspecies on this ark. Although, the volume increases a little when you realize that the ark was liklely a box in shape. Also, with the height, there could be more than one level to the ark. It didn't have to be one story, as the account in Genesis states it had three stories. In addition, there is nothing saying these animals had to be fully grown. Young elephants could fit much more easily, but it was nice for you to worry about them. ;)

3. Commandment one is, Thou shall not put any god before me. Something like that. Not, "Thou shall not kill." Just had to clarify that.
The man is absolutely correct. It would make sense, would it not? If man has no other gods before God, then man would want to obey the laws of God that follow, correct?

I am not sure what you were aiming at here. I suppose we agree, then.

4. Direct translation from hebrew:
Jesus walks by water
Jesus was born by young women mary.
In the Greek text of Matthew 14, it says that Jesus walked "epi" the water. Epi is Greek for "over," "upon," or "on." I do not know who told you that, but they were mistaken. I have a pretty good understanding of biblical Greek and excellent resources.

Matthew 1:18 states:

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Okay, so he was born by a virgin named Mary. That's pretty clear there.

5. The pope states, evolution does NOT conflict with the bible.
And the pope is no more infallable than anyone else. I am not saying that he is flat out wrong, as I think that microevolution is a possibility, but I am not setting either side in stone.

5a. If we started from two people, we would be messed up and inbred.
There had yet to be mutations, so no, we wouldn't be. Eventually, after genetic problems arose, this would have been the case. It could very likely be why it is later forbidden to do so. However, if two people have no genetic defects even in their recessive genes, it is probable that they will have healthy children. Your reasoning doesn't even consider the period or the genetic aspect.

6. 6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."
Essentially, you are correct about winter not being Jesus' birthday. In fact, we celebrate it in December because of the Cult of Isis. Isis' birthday is supposed to be anywhere from December 25-30. This is a result of syncretism, though, and does nothing to disprove the Bible, as it never says Jesus was born in December. He was, it is more likely, born in the Spring.

7. You believe in Creation. However, the bible also states that the Earth is in the center of the universe. However, Galileo stated that the Earth was not. Analogy: Creation = geocentric. Evolution = Heliocentric.
Creation should only be taught as a story in literature. Not in science.
I don't recall the Bible saying that the earth is the center of the universe. If it even hints at that, I would suggest that it is a reference to importance, and not physical placement.

8. Little do you know, getting married equates to more rights. Now, do you really want to takw away rights from a homosexual couple? Maybe IF married couples didn't have benefits under the US, I'd support you Right Wingers under, "protection of religion." Besides, it says in the Bible that having sexual relationships with a person of the same gender is a sin. Not getting married. Therefore, they are commiting a sin ANYWAYs.
I do not actually have a problem with your statement. Frankly, I don't care about the laws on homosexual unions/marriages for the very reasons you stated. I think we agree here. These people are not doing anything worse by being married that they are not already doing, so in a sense, I agree with you.

Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.

This is a very general statement. First, I have heard much better arguments for atheism than this. Talk to Grave 'n' Idle. He had some very good arguments when we talked. Second, what you say is not universal. There are some cases in which you may be right. However, there are many cases I know of in which you are wrong. Christianity is not stupid. Some Christians may seem that way, but there are also some who are brilliant minds and know their theology much better than you know their theology or even your own beliefs on God.

Originally posted by East Canuck
And pray tell, where is homosexuality mentionned in the story of Soddom and Gommoreah?

It is their actions. They tell Lot to bring them the men so that they may "know" them. Many say that this word does not mean anything carnal. The word (yâda‛ in Hebrew) can mean other things. The interpretation, therefore can not be simply speculatory. However, just one verse later, Lot uses the same word when he tells these men, "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man." The same word is used in both places. Therefore, it would be ridiculous to say that he meant something sexual with his daughters (which is the only rational reading of the text) and not have the same connotations with the men of town speaking in the same minute.

Thus, the word is not used. Rather, the actions are described. However, there is nothing that says that this is the sin that caused their distruction, as there were likely other things that were also wicked. There is no way of knowing whether their homosexuality was the cause of the distruction or not.

Originally posted by Crapholistan
What kind of an asshole condemns more than half of earth to hell?

Nobody said He does so because He wants to. To accept imperfection without restoration into perfection is to make the perfect imperfect.

Example: Suppose you had two glasses of pure water. One will represent God and one will represent a man (any old man, it doesn't matter). Now, I have a little dropper of red food coloring. Suppose I drop just one little drop into the "Man" glass. That drop represents sin (or wickedness or evil, whatever you wish to call it). Can you now pour the "Man" glass into the "God" glass without mixing the red food coloring into the "God" glass? No. Even if the difference is so minute that you cannot tell, it is still there, and the glass is no longer absolutely pure.

To overcome this, the "God" glass (this is where it gets funny) creates a unique filter to remove the food coloring. This is the only filter that will get the food coloring out, as the pores in the filter are smaller than any other, thus, it is the only filter able to be used. The "Man" glass, if poured through the filter, can again be recognized as pure, even if it has had food coloring in it before. Consequently, it can be poured into the "God" glass without impurifying it.

It's not that He wants people to be condemned. Scripture reads (in John 3: 17): "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Originally posted by Scouserlande
What dosent leviticus ban though. I think it even sais passing waste is evil at one point.
Haha, that was always the joke in seminary. If someone was doing anything, just to mess with them, we would say that the Bible forbids it in Leviticus.

To address your assertion, it does not forbid passing waste. It does stipulate where the people were to pass waste in Deuteronomy. Easily explained, God likely knew that, in order to remain sanitary, the human waste should be kept under control. Specifically, it says that those in the camp (It is speaking of the military, I believe.) are to find a place outside the camp where men may go to relieve themselves and that they are to take a tool or utensil with them to bury their waste. That's all.

The interesting thing about the dismissal of homosexuality being banned in Leviticus is that the ban of homosexuality is sandwiched in the middle of a list of other things that are banned. It is in a passage with beastiality, adultery, and incest. To try to take a whole passage and just say that one part (about homosexuality) is no longer valid makes no sense. Being that it is mentioned in the same breath as the other three, to make one no longer valid would be to make all four no longer valid. Also, one has to consider that the only place in Scripture where child sacrifice is deemed wrong is in Leviticus. Moreover, if you take out the Old Testament, then incest and beastiality are also acceptable practices. I would assert, therefore, that Leviticus, and more generally, the Old Testament, are not completely obsolete.

It really gets me why christians use the o.T espeically the torah bits like that.
Read previous paragraph. Sorry, I got a bit ahead of myself it would seem.

did not jesus destroy the need for it.
Not at all. If you read Matthew 5 (17-20, I think?), Jesus himself states that he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets. Instead, he says he came to fulfill them. Without the law, man has no reason to think he needs salvation, as there is no law telling him so. The law is in effect so as to give reason for redemption. It is true, however, that he came to give freedom from the condemnation from the law, as nobody was able to live perfectly under it, thus all are guilty of breaking it. With the redemption of Jesus Christ, nobody needs be judged by the law any longer.

Originally posted by Dragoniana
The Bible is meant to be the 'Word Of God'. Whether you believe that or not is up you. So as a christian you would obviously want to listen to the word of God. Thus most Christians adhere to the bible. Its not because they have to, it because they want to. If you love your God you will want to please him. For a non Christian the bible holds no relevance because there is no drive to adhere to what is said within its pages. One does not belive it to be the word of God.
A-MEN! This is my biggest beef with religiocrats. They think that because the Bible is true, everyone should be subject to it. What they don't understand is that those who have no desire to please God would have no desire to follow Scripture. This is the reason I do not base my politics on what is moral, but what is legal and constitutional. Do I like the idea that homosexuals should have the right to marry? Not really. Can I think of any reason to stop them? Not apart from discussing the detriment of homosexuality itself, but since it is already going on, regardless of government recognization, I see no reason why it would make anything worse.

Originally posted by Dakini
Soddom and Gommorah were smited for being inhospitable, not for homosexuality.
Show me where it says this, and I will believe you. I am not saying that they were killed because they were homosexuals. I am saying that they were destroyed because they were wicked. Scripture does not tell us what sin, in particular, caused Sodom and Gomorrah to be demolished, but your assertion that it was because they were inhospitable is as baseless as any claim that it was because they practiced homosexuality. The text gives evidence that they were guilty of both inhospitality and homosexuality, but the text says nothing about why the city was destroyed other than the fact that they were generally wicked.

Whew, that was exhausting.

Show me where it says this, and I will believe you. I am not saying that they were killed because they were homosexuals. I am saying that they were destroyed because they were wicked. Scripture does not tell us what sin, in particular, caused Sodom and Gomorrah to be demolished, but your assertion that it was because they were inhospitable is as baseless as any claim that it was because they practiced homosexuality. The text gives evidence that they were guilty of both inhospitality and homosexuality, but the text says nothing about why the city was destroyed other than the fact that they were generally wicked.

Ezekiel 16:49-50: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.

As I recall, Jesus later cited Ezekiel when he was warning people about being uncharitable.

Originally posted by Pracus
Ezekiel 16:49-50: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.

I knew this was going to come up, but one's hands get so tired after typing so much.

This does say that they were arrogant, gluttons, and lazy. It still fails to meet my point for two reasons:

(A) It does not mention hospitality, and though hospitality and charity are similar, they are not imterchangeable, and

(B) It still does not say that this was the reason that they were destroyed.

It says that they were guilty of these things, and I whole-heartedly agree. It was the guilt of Sodom. This passage, however, does not say that these things were solitarily the cause of anything. Verse 50 states that 'abominations' or 'abhorrences' were the reason for Sodom's destruction.

So, I in fact agree with the statement. It just didn't answer my request.

As I recall, Jesus later cited Ezekiel when he was warning people about being uncharitable.
You are correct.

I knew this was going to come up, but one's hands get so tired after typing so much.

This does say that they were arrogant, gluttons, and lazy. It still fails to meet my point for two reasons:

(A) It does not mention hospitality, and though hospitality and charity are similar, they are not imterchangeable, and

(B) It still does not say that this was the reason that they were destroyed.

It says that they were guilty of these things, and I whole-heartedly agree. It was the guilt of Sodom. This passage, however, does not say that these things were solitarily the cause of anything. Verse 50 states that 'abominations' or 'abhorrences' were the reason for Sodom's destruction.

So, I in fact agree with the statement. It just didn't answer my request.


You are correct.


If you want to go that way, there is nothing to say that the Genesis account says that homosexuality is the sin they were destroyed for. There are a number of confoudning factors--ambiguities in translation, the fact that they were angels, the fact that it was rape and not conscensual. Condemning a rather large group of people based on such circumstantial (at best) evidence seems to be pretty rough if you aren't going to accept equally circumstantial (though in my opiunion more convincing--just an opinion of course) evidence to teh contrary.

Not to mention that angels are supposed to be asexual. How can you say it is homosexuality when they are raping someone who has no sex?

I have a reccomendation. If you want serious discussion on avoiding masturbation, go to www.christianity.com and ask them the same question. I believe they have a section dedicated to giving such advice and you will find many people who agree with you there and will not flame you in the least.



Actually...it's http://forums.christianity.com and as it's merging with crosswalk at the moment, everything is in disarray. Some of us have moved to http://commonthread.invisionplus.net but it's pretty small at the moment. I'm Nada (Spanish for nothing or Croatian for peace, take your pick) in both. Also http://www.christianforums.com has been recommended to me.

You will certainly find more Christians there, however no flaming, hmm. Depends where you go.

Actually...it's http://forums.christianity.com and as it's merging with crosswalk at the moment, everything is in disarray. Some of us have moved to http://commonthread.invisionplus.net but it's pretty small at the moment. I'm Nada (Spanish for nothing or Croatian for peace, take your pick) in both. Also http://www.christianforums.com has been recommended to me.

You will certainly find more Christians there, however no flaming, hmm. Depends where you go.
Id like to have a civilised debate with christians, allmost impossible here, would that be a good place to go?

Not to mention that angels are supposed to be asexual. How can you say it is homosexuality when they are raping someone who has no sex?
There doesn't need to be anal penetration for it to be "sex." The angels might have used dildos, performed oral sex, or heck, for all we know, they were dryhumping, which I think we can all agree is fairly gay.

There doesn't need to be anal penetration for it to be "sex." The angels might have used dildos, performed oral sex, or heck, for all we know, they were dryhumping, which I think we can all agree is fairly gay.

No sex doesn't mean that they don't have sex. It means that they don't have gender--and therefore the people were not having sex with people of their own gender. Yeesh.

Oh, and for the record, the only dry-humping I've ever seen was with dogs or straight men in bars. I've never known a gay guy who has dry humped anything.

There doesn't need to be anal penetration for it to be "sex." The angels might have used dildos, performed oral sex, or heck, for all we know, they were dryhumping, which I think we can all agree is fairly gay.
Like any of these things canoot be done with a woman and are the sole purview of homosexual sex :rolleyes:

What I'm getting at is that it can't be homosexual sex if the angels are not of the same sex than those who took advantage of them. The men who raped them weren'T asexual, therefore it is not homosexual sex.

Originally posted by Pracus
If you want to go that way, there is nothing to say that the Genesis account says that homosexuality is the sin they were destroyed for.
I agree. This was actually my point. It does not say that they were destroyed specifially because they were homosexual. I was asserting that the text merely states that the reason they were destroyed was that they were wicked (or whatever synonym you like to use). There is no more argument for homosexuality being the reason than there is for inhospitality. I was pointing out that neither side has an argument as to why they were destroyed. The only thing we know is that both were present in Sodom. In your statement, then, we agree.

There are a number of confoudning factors--ambiguities in translation,
. . . which is why I prefer Hebrew. ;)


the fact that they were angels,
I am not sure what you are saying by this, but they were, so you are right. I just don't see the confounding part of it, but I suppose that's okay.

the fact that it was rape and not conscensual.
We don't know this for sure since they never actually committed rape on the two angelic beings. The men of the town wanted sex. It can be implied that they were willing to rape for it, and it can be assumed that it had happened in the city before, thus making common rape another wicked aspect of the city. However, I would still say that rape cannot be determined to have been the only reason they were destroyed, either, for the same reasons as homosexuality and inhospitality. Good insight, though. A lot of Christians miss the fact that the Sodom-ites seemed willing to rape in order to have sex.

Condemning a rather large group of people based on such circumstantial (at best) evidence seems to be pretty rough if you aren't going to accept equally circumstantial (though in my opiunion more convincing--just an opinion of course) evidence to teh contrary.
I would say that it is equally convincing. There are arguments for what particular sin caused Sodom and Gomorrah to be destroyed, but I will assert that it was likely a conglomeration of all those things and not one of them individually, so, in essence, I do not think that the people of these cities were killed solely because they practiced homosexuality. Nor do I think it was for any one sin, period.

But that is also an assumption. It is good, I think, to wonder about the 'whys' and 'whats' of things like this. Basically, I will put it this way: I don't know why Sodom or Gomorrah was destroyed other than the fact that they were wicked. I can speculate, but whatever I can come up with is just that: speculation.

Originally posted by East Canuck
Not to mention that angels are supposed to be asexual. How can you say it is homosexuality when they are raping someone who has no sex?
You are forgetting that the men of town did not know that these beings were anything more than men. While Lot seemed to pick up on the fact that they were not merely men, the men of Sodom indicate that they thought they were just men.

In Genesis 19:1-2, Lot bows "with his face to the ground" to these "travelers" and refers to them as "lords" (Heb. "'âdôn"), which meant something along the lines of "sovereigns" or "masters." The everyday traveler was not revered in this way. It is further evidenced that he thought more of them than mere mortals when they refused his invitation at first, saying that they would "abide in the street all night." He strongly pleaded with them to stay in his house after their original decline.

The other men of Sodom, on the other hand, called them "men" (Heb. "'îysh") which literally means just that: humans of the male gender. In fact, the text uses this very same word to refer to the "men" of Sodom. Thus, the men of Sodom thought these to be male humans, and did not know their angelic identity.

Originally posted by Scouserlande
Id like to have a civilised debate with christians, allmost impossible here, would that be a good place to go?
I will admit that I think you are right about it being nearly impossible on here. However, I try to be civil in my arguments. If you would like, I would be willing to carry on a debate with you.

Originally posted by Pracus
Oh, and for the record, the only dry-humping I've ever seen was with dogs or straight men in bars. I've never known a gay guy who has dry humped anything.
Wow, glad I've never been to these bars. Ha!

Originally posted by East Canuck
What I'm getting at is that it can't be homosexual sex if the angels are not of the same sex than those who took advantage of them. The men who raped them weren'T asexual, therefore it is not homosexual sex.
Reading the text, they are never actually raped at all. They had an intent to do so, and their intent assumed that these were male human beings. If you want to get into symantics, then this would have been rape and sexual immorality, but not homosexuality if it had happened. The fact is, however, that these men intended to rape two men, and not two asexual beings.

Just as a side note - this has mod edit has been given to me as well.

You can ask people to stay off a thread, but they are free to post here and the moderators will not remove their posts just because you don't like them.

Id like to have a civilised debate with christians, allmost impossible here, would that be a good place to go?

Christianity.com you can't debate evolution/creation *grrr* anymore but it's def. more civilised then here. There are still some stupid people but there are more christians to refute their 'stupidness'. however as I said, it's all in upheavel so I don't know if you'll get any good replies. Commonthread is small at the moment but in my opinion is where the best people have gone. I can't give you an opinion on christianforums, but there were lots of people on when I checked.

I think that the more mature Christians know not to get into debates in places like here, either that or they're completly mad (not that I am....much)

1. In the bible, it states that PI is exactly 3. However, we know that pi goes along with 3.141492658232 etc.

So lets say that the bible was not written by a bunch of HUMANS, but by God. What makes you then think you know more about PI then God? But the bible was written by humans, not by God.

2. Noahs ark has the dimentions along 45*450. He gathers 2 of every animal. Now, that takes every animal, and every salt water fish. So, we go along the lines of, 50,000 animals? Which is probably way off. So lets see. Do the math. Thats less than a coffin for every critter. Poor Elephants.

Man I love the way Atheists think. So you belive that the above is true, but not the rest of the bible? Fine, thats your own religion then. But to try and prove that Christianity is wrong, which I'm assuming is your goal, you'd have to involve the rest of the bible too.

That means God could have shrunk the Elephants, and then sized them up again then they all came out.

6sC. Easter is a PAGEN holiday. You worship a freaking bunny. That would be something you would worship for good harvest.


6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."

Oh he was? May I ask from where you got that knowledge?



Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.

No, Atheists dedicated to trying to prove that God doesn't exist or that Christianity is wrong has more knowledge. What they should do is GET A JOB.

I'm figurin this thread is kinda like supposed to be a place where Christians circle the wagons and defend themselves from atheist raids.
Well, as a Christian, the last place I want to be is in the wagon train. I think of myself as a Jeremiah Johnson Christian, you know, "I've been to a town, Delque." and "and some say. . .he's out there still."
The last thing I need is a bunch of wagon train Christians yellin "Circle the wagons! The atheist are a comin!!" Slows me down, keeps me from wandering free.
"By God the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world! And there ain't no churches, cept this'n right here!"

I'm figurin this thread is kinda like supposed to be a place where Christians circle the wagons and defend themselves from atheist raids.
Well, as a Christian, the last place I want to be is in the wagon train. I think of myself as a Jeremiah Johnson Christian, you know, "I've been to a town, Delque." and "and some say. . .he's out there still."
The last thing I need is a bunch of wagon train Christians yellin "Circle the wagons! The atheist are a comin!!" Slows me down, keeps me from wandering free.
"By God the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world! And there ain't no churches, cept this'n right here!"
Yes but can the Socialist Atheists Drive big tanks, eveyone else like the greens can be on donkeys or something.

Yes but can the Socialist Atheists Drive big tanks, eveyone else like the greens can be on donkeys or something.

Anyting you want baby. . .anyting. . .

Originally Posted by Eastern Coast America
6sC. Easter is a PAGEN holiday. You worship a freaking bunny. That would be something you would worship for good harvest.
Easter is a pagan holiday. Correct. Then the Hasty Conclusion Fallacy or Straw Man Fallacy comes into play.

Easter has been rooted in the cult of Ishtar (Note the similar sound to "easter.") since its beginning. She was worshipped during the solstice (hence the date of Easter, though it is likely that Jesus was killed in the Spring) when men and women would don a brand new outfit (Yep, Easter outfits are actually a result of a pagan practice.) and go to the temple of Ishtar and have sex with the temple prostitutes (As she was the goddess of fertility, that was the acceptable way to worship her.).

The symbols of Ishtar were the baby chick and rabbit (both signs of fertility), hence their involvement in our modern holiday. She was written about in the Epic of Gilgamesh, where she escaped a giant flood in a magic painted egg (Aha!), hence the eggs.

The difference is, Christians do not celebrate because of any of these things. They celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. Thus, if someone does not believe in the resurrection, and still celebrates Easter in any way involving eggs and rabbits, it is more likely that they are worshipping a "freaking" (And Christians are the ones that get emotional?) rabbit, and not Christians.

Originally posted by Itake
So lets say that the bible was not written by a bunch of HUMANS, but by God. What makes you then think you know more about PI then God? But the bible was written by humans, not by God.
If you read back, I already explained that the Bible does not really support pi being exactly 3.

Originally posted by Itake
Originally Posted by Eastern Coast America
6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."


Oh he was? May I ask from where you got that knowledge?
Psst . . . PSST! Actually, he's right that it wasn't in December. It is celebrated in December because of syncretism with the cult of Isis, a goddess of Egyptian origin, who was born in late December. If you ask where I got that from, I got it from studying at an evangelical college in a class called History of Christianity.

Wow, I can't even believe I remember what class that was! Maybe I'm not getting old yet! :D

Originally posted by Itake
Atheists dedicated to trying to prove that God doesn't exist or that Christianity is wrong has more knowledge. What they should do is GET A JOB.
Careful, some Christians (like myself for example) do the same thing (It's part of my job description.). Your reply was an Appeal to Outrage Fallacy (a. k. a. the Rush Limbaugh Fallacy, and no, I am not kidding). It gets nobody anywhere. Plus, his claim had no base left, thus making a rebuttal of his statement unnecessary.

It's okay for someone to want to disagree with Christians. We are not given special rights (Ffc2, where are you?). Take it easy.

Originally posted by 31
I'm figurin this thread is kinda like supposed to be a place where Christians circle the wagons and defend themselves from atheist raids.
Well, as a Christian, the last place I want to be is in the wagon train. I think of myself as a Jeremiah Johnson Christian, you know, "I've been to a town, Delque." and "and some say. . .he's out there still."
The last thing I need is a bunch of wagon train Christians yellin "Circle the wagons! The atheist are a comin!!" Slows me down, keeps me from wandering free.
"By God the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world! And there ain't no churches, cept this'n right here!"
I have learned to be picky about to which I respond. There are too many to respond to all of them. If I see one that looks like someone picking a fight or someong baiting a Christian to go on the offensive (Christians! Defend Your Beliefs!), then I pass over it. Those are not worth getting into. However, if someone has an honest question that is not overly general (and if I have time) I try to respond. I think it is good for Christians to become accustomed to doing such.

Originally Posted by Scouserlande
Yes but can the Socialist Atheists Drive big tanks, eveyone else like the greens can be on donkeys or something.
That's fine. I'm armed to the teeth with high-intensity explosives and I've got some good aim (Pitched for the college baseball team a number of years ago.). So long as I don't drop anything, I should be good. Bring on your tanks! ;)

the last time i tried this it got twisted by a bunch of sickminded atheists, so i'm gonna limit it to people who have some sort of morals this time. if u want help with anything, just ask. i would prefer to keep this restricted to christians only, to keep from arguments about whether God exists and such, but if u can be constructive, then i don't see y others couldn't post. for the record, i just finished my struggle with porn, and am struggling with other things now, so if u have any sincere advice that would be welcome. God bless.
For by Grace are you saved through Faith, not of works, it is a Gift from God lest any Man should boast...

We don't know this for sure since they never actually committed rape on the two angelic beings. The men of the town wanted sex. It can be implied that they were willing to rape for it, and it can be assumed that it had happened in the city before, thus making common rape another wicked aspect of the city. However, I would still say that rape cannot be determined to have been the only reason they were destroyed, either, for the same reasons as homosexuality and inhospitality. Good insight, though. A lot of Christians miss the fact that the Sodom-ites seemed willing to rape in order to have sex.

I would say that it is equally convincing. There are arguments for what particular sin caused Sodom and Gomorrah to be destroyed, but I will assert that it was likely a conglomeration of all those things and not one of them individually, so, in essence, I do not think that the people of these cities were killed solely because they practiced homosexuality. Nor do I think it was for any one sin, period.


I don't think it actually claims anywhere that the men of Sodom were homosexual?

Regarding the angels, and the men - there is another interpretation. The word 'Yada' can simply mean, literally, "to know".

Bearing in mind that Sodom had JUST come out of a destructive war - it is not impossible that the people of Sodom (whether 'sinners excessively before the lord', or not) may have been suspicious of ANY new people within their community - especially those who moved around suspiciously at night, and had contact ONLY with foreigners.

Thus - the crowd of Sodom (and there is no real justification for assuming that the crowd was all male - 'enowsh' can just mean "mankind" - so, the 'residents of Sodom') may have simply been calling for Lot to bring out the strangers, so that they could judge them for themselves.

In fact - I seem to recall that Jesus implies the "sin of Sodom" was more about being unwelcoming to strangers, than about anything else - as you say, the crime seems to have been 'inhospitablity':

Mark 6:10-11 "And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place... And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city".

(A refrain repeated in Luke 10-12 and Matthew 14-15).

1. In the bible, it states that PI is exactly 3. However, we know that pi goes along with 3.141492658232 etc.

2. Noahs ark has the dimentions along 45*450. He gathers 2 of every animal. Now, that takes every animal, and every salt water fish. So, we go along the lines of, 50,000 animals? Which is probably way off. So lets see. Do the math. Thats less than a coffin for every critter. Poor Elephants.

3. Commandment one is, Thou shall not put any god before me. Something like that. Not, "Thou shall not kill." Just had to clarify that.

4. Direct translation from hebrew:
Jesus walks by water
Jesus was born by young women mary.

5. The pope states, evolution does NOT conflict with the bible.
5sA. If we started from two people, we would be messed up and inbred.

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/message.htm

6. Those things you call sins? Are actually things that the Catholics did in order to speak out against the Romans.

6sA. 666 is the number of a Roman Govener added up (hebrew).
6sB. The Pentagram is the symbol of a scientific group that went against the church.
6sC. Easter is a PAGEN holiday. You worship a freaking bunny. That would be something you would worship for good harvest.
6sD. Jesus was not born during Christmas. Jesus was born somewhere in...June? Not December. However, in order to get more people to convert, the Catholic church switched around alot of the holidays to the same days Pagen holidays are. Basically, "Hey, I'm off on the same day. Thats fine."

7. You believe in Creation. However, the bible also states that the Earth is in the center of the universe. However, Galileo stated that the Earth was not. Analogy: Creation = geocentric. Evolution = Heliocentric.
Creation should only be taught as a story in literature. Not in science.

8. Little do you know, getting married equates to more rights. Now, do you really want to takw away rights from a homosexual couple? Maybe IF married couples didn't have benefits under the US, I'd support you Right Wingers under, "protection of religion." Besides, it says in the Bible that having sexual relationships with a person of the same gender is a sin. Not getting married. Therefore, they are commiting a sin ANYWAYs.

Ironically, Atheists are the one's who have more knowledge when it comes to religion and the bible.

1. No it doesn't. I assume you are talking about 1 Kings 7:23 where it say that "He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape and measuring 10 cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it." You would think this would mean PI=3. The Bible would be incorrect if it were not for one thing, in verse 26 it says "It(the sea) was a hadbreadth in thickness and and it's rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths." The rim was higher up and extended further out than where the circumference was measured therefore it could still take 30 cubits to go around and be 10 cubits from rim to rim.

2.Do you know what the purpose of the flood was. It was not to destroy all life but human life. The flood being realtively few generations after Adam there wouldn't be that many people around and an ark the size of the one described could easily hold two of every species of animal in the middle east.

4.The new testament wasn't even written in hebrew in was written in greek. Also it does say Jesus walked on water because Peter got out of the boat and went to Jesus but his faith faltered and he began to sink

5.Do you why inbreeding is bad? It is caused by recesive genes. If you are both in the same family and you have a kid then they could get two recessive genes and get something like hemophilia. It is well known that genes continuasly mutate and change, so what if at the begining there were no negative recessive genes? Then we wouldn't be all inbred and messed up.

6.The old testament was written hundreds of years before the Catholic Church came into existance and it gives a very good desciption of what is sin and what is not. Even the entire new testament was written before the formation of a central church based out of Rome.

7. No it does not. Also Galileo was a christian.

I find it ironic that Athiests always think they know everything but in reality only present distorted and biased proof for their claims when they claim to be intellectually superior to all us "religius folk".

it never says it's illegal, nor does it actually call it masturbation. sry, but it's one of those things we first need to be agreed that God exists and the Bible is truth before we can discuss it.

Whatever you say Alex.

I find it ironic that Athiests always think they know everything but in reality only present distorted and biased proof for their claims when they claim to be intellectually superior to all us "religius folk".

Curious.

As an Atheist, perhaps you can point out where I made such assertions?

It's okay for someone to want to disagree with Christians. We are not given special rights (Ffc2, where are you?). Take it easy.

Thank you Aluminumia, that is something I can respect.

Curious.

As an Atheist, perhaps you can point out where I made such assertions?

I am sorry for the generalization. If you read the post that I quoted it said an equally prejudice statement and I was simply responding to that. I know that not all atheists are the same and again I apoligize for generalizing when I shouldn't have.

I am sorry for the generalization. If you read the post that I quoted it said an equally prejudice statement and I was simply responding to that. I know that not all atheists are the same and again I apoligize for generalizing when I shouldn't have.

No harm done.

Just a cautionary tale... as many Atheists generalise about 'the religious', so many of 'the religious' fall into the same trap, in reverse.

Like I said, though... no harm done. :)

Christians-Arguing with a Jew over the Bible is pointless. It's like arguing with Bobby Fischer over how to play chess. You might not like what he believes, but no matter what, you're still going to lose.

They read it in the original language and with massive amounts of commentary, that has not been as distorted (if at all) compared to the tons of Christian groups, which put their own spin on the Bible, with twisted translations. In their beliefs, religious study is of primary importance, and not secondary, as with most Christian denominations, where the emphasis is on just believing in Christ. While Christianity has a positive influence in the world, when you examine both Judaism and Christianity, Judaism's doctrine is far more sensible and closer to the original text.

One major evidence of this is how Christians interpret much of the Bible as literal. Revelations, which is CLEARLY metaphorical, is almost universally interpreted to mean there's going to be an apocalypse. And yet, the prophecies of the Messiah, which were mostly literal, were interpreted as complex, obscure metaphors by early Christians. How strange, that you interpret literal prophecies metaphorically, to create a false Messiah, and then interpret metaphors literally, to put people in fear of an apocalypse!

As I said, Christianity is positive, because it brings morality to the world (usually). But arguing with a Jew is pointless, and trying to convert them or others is even worse.

Christians-Arguing with a Jew over the Bible is pointless. It's like arguing with Bobby Fischer over how to play chess. You might not like what he believes, but no matter what, you're still going to lose.

They read it in the original language and with massive amounts of commentary, that has not been as distorted (if at all) compared to the tons of Christian groups, which put their own spin on the Bible, with twisted translations.

Except the parts that are in Aramaic and Greek?

Except the parts that are in Aramaic and Greek?
I'm not sure how many Jews speak Aramaic, but probably more than Christians, because I know that to convert to Orthodox Judaism, you have to learn to read Hebrew and Aramaic. And the "Greek" parts, to my knowledge, are only in the New Testament, so they aren't part of the Jewish Bible.

I'm not sure how many Jews speak Aramaic, but probably more than Christians, because I know that to convert to Orthodox Judaism, you have to learn to read Hebrew and Aramaic. And the "Greek" parts, to my knowledge, are only in the New Testament, so they aren't part of the Jewish Bible.

You said "Christians-Arguing with a Jew over the Bible is pointless".

The Bible isn't all in Hebrew... or even in Hebrew/Aramaic.

The Bible is the whole text, Old AND New Testaments.

And - since most Jews do not recognise Jesus as Messiah, there is definitely scope for debate over the 'Bible'.

the last time i tried this it got twisted by a bunch of sickminded atheists, so i'm gonna limit it to people who have some sort of morals this time. if u want help with anything, just ask. i would prefer to keep this restricted to christians only, to keep from arguments about whether God exists and such, but if u can be constructive, then i don't see y others couldn't post. for the record, i just finished my struggle with porn, and am struggling with other things now, so if u have any sincere advice that would be welcome. God bless.

I thought the Lord God Baby Jesus helped you people with everything from your taxes to tying your shoelaces. Now you gotta help each other?

Man, that Baby Jesus is such a slacker...never around when you need 'im. apparently.

Hey, it's Grave! Good to see you again!

:D

Originally posted by Dobbs Town
I thought the Lord God Baby Jesus helped you people with everything from your taxes to tying your shoelaces.
Guy that helps with everything? Sounds more like Santa.

Nah, there's no "magic prayer" to help with shoelaces or taxes or choking the purple-headed yogurt slinger (Ah, to have a youth group . . .).

There are four 'gods' that the Christian culture seems to buy into. I don't think any of them are biblically accurate, but a lot of men in my position teach that they are real. I am convinced that it is because they are popular beliefs. People like to believe them. They are:
The Help-Me God
The Heal-Me God
The Gimme God
and The Bless-Me God

The belief is that God is somehow a kind of genie living way up in the clouds. It's kinda sad that they believe this, dispite many things not being met. One such teaching is from the book The Prayer of Jabez. Frankly, it basically equates God to a Fairy Godfather.

Hey, if you don't believe in God, then all this was moot, though it may not be bad to know. Not all of us think God is Christina Aguilara. It doesn't take us rubbing some metaphysical lamp.

Hey, it's Grave! Good to see you again!

:D



Glad to see that you haven't disappeared from the forum completely. :)

You said "Christians-Arguing with a Jew over the Bible is pointless".

The Bible isn't all in Hebrew... or even in Hebrew/Aramaic.

The Bible is the whole text, Old AND New Testaments.
Not the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh.

And - since most Jews do not recognise Jesus as Messiah, there is definitely scope for debate over the 'Bible'.
Hahahaha. No. Those are not Jews. There's a small minority of "Messianic" Christians pretending to be Jews, in order to convert them. When I say "Messianic" Christians, I don't even mean Jews that converted to Christianity. There's Christians that consider themselves Jews that believe in Christ, even though they are not Jewish by birth or conversion. Besides, as I said, any Jew will clearly explain to you why Jesus is not the Messiah. It's not necessary, really, but if you're going to make false claims about the Jewish Bible or the Jewish people, it might be.

Hahahaha. No. Those are not Jews. There's a small minority of "Messianic" Christians pretending to be Jews, in order to convert them. When I say "Messianic" Christians, I don't even mean Jews that converted to Christianity. There's Christians that consider themselves Jews that believe in Christ, even though they are not Jewish by birth or conversion. Besides, as I said, any Jew will clearly explain to you why Jesus is not the Messiah. It's not necessary, really, but if you're going to make false claims about the Jewish Bible or the Jewish people, it might be.

Well, Jews for Jesus are Jews by birth.

Originally posted by Grave_n_Idle
I don't think it actually claims anywhere that the men of Sodom were homosexual?
I am not claiming that they were regularly practicing, as it never does say that. However, I have read ahead and if the word yâda‛ means something sexual, then I have a claim. Read on.

Regarding the angels, and the men - there is another interpretation. The word 'Yada' can simply mean, literally, "to know".

Bearing in mind that Sodom had JUST come out of a destructive war - it is not impossible that the people of Sodom (whether 'sinners excessively before the lord', or not) may have been suspicious of ANY new people within their community - especially those who moved around suspiciously at night, and had contact ONLY with foreigners.
The word yâda‛ can truly mean, and in many cases did mean, to know, just as you asserted. My backing is in the next verse. Lot uses the exact same word when saying that his daughters "lô' yâda‛" man. I can find no reason to say that the word was used to mean something different when the men were speaking than when Lot was speaking. Why could Lot not have meant "to know" literally? Well, it would seem a meaningless thing to say to a group of men . . . unless these men were really looking for sex, in which case, Lot offered them a gang bang of his daughters rather than his guests (great father, by the way :rolleyes: ). Otherwise, the story really makes no sense . . . almost like a joke with no punchline.

In addition, Lot says just a few seconds later, to the men of Sodom, "Only to these men, do nothing." If all they were going to do was check the strangers out, why would he be so afraid of that?

Men of Sodom: Bring those strangers out so that we can make sure that they are okay!

Lot: No, but here are my daughters that I have locked in the basement and have never been aquainted with anyone before.

That's like if you were to ask me for a sandwich, and I said, "No, but you can have this matchbox car." If Lot was trying to satisfy their curiosity as to the men, why do what he did? It just makes no sense that way. It fidn't dit (didn't fit).

You are right about the war, though. Maybe they were being overcome by hormones? :rolleyes:

As I said before, I would not say that this is the reason that Sodom was destroyed. All I say is that it was likely part. I am not of the persuasion that God hates homosexuals and that all homosexuals are going to hell, meaning that while this is one of my most studied areas as far as a topic (homosexuality), I don't think Christianity sees it correctly.

Thus - the crowd of Sodom (and there is no real justification for assuming that the crowd was all male - 'enowsh' can just mean "mankind" - so, the 'residents of Sodom') may have simply been calling for Lot to bring out the strangers, so that they could judge them for themselves.
I already addressed this sentence, but I figured I would work with the word "men."

The word I have here in my Hebrew OT is the word "'îysh (אישׁ)," which means, literally, male. To make sure, I go to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

H376
אישׁ
'îysh
eesh
Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person

The lone argument that can be made that it was more than just men is in verse 4. It refers to this as "all the people" in the KJV. The word "people" is the word " ‛am " in Hebrew, which can also just mean a throng or a flock.

In fact - I seem to recall that Jesus implies the "sin of Sodom" was more about being unwelcoming to strangers, than about anything else - as you say, the crime seems to have been 'inhospitablity':
This verse, in fact, gives legitimacy that Sodom's sole evil was not homosexuality. Honestly, I would view inhospitality as a more serious offense, but that is not biblical. That is merely idealogical.

Good thoughts.

I am not claiming that they were regularly practicing, as it never does say that. However, I have read ahead and if the word yâda‛ means something sexual, then I have a claim. Read on.


The word yâda‛ can truly mean, and in many cases did mean, to know, just as you asserted. My backing is in the next verse. Lot uses the exact same word when saying that his daughters "lô' yâda‛" man. I can find no reason to say that the word was used to mean something different when the men were speaking than when Lot was speaking. Why could Lot not have meant "to know" literally? Well, it would seem a meaningless thing to say to a group of men . . . unless these men were really looking for sex, in which case, Lot offered them a gang bang of his daughters rather than his guests (great father, by the way :rolleyes: ). Otherwise, the story really makes no sense . . . almost like a joke with no punchline.

In addition, Lot says just a few seconds later, to the men of Sodom, "Only to these men, do nothing." If all they were going to do was check the strangers out, why would he be so afraid of that?

Men of Sodom: Bring those strangers out so that we can make sure that they are okay!

Lot: No, but here are my daughters that I have locked in the basement and have never been aquainted with anyone before.

That's like if you were to ask me for a sandwich, and I said, "No, but you can have this matchbox car." If Lot was trying to satisfy their curiosity as to the men, why do what he did? It just makes no sense that way. It fidn't dit (didn't fit).

You are right about the war, though. Maybe they were being overcome by hormones? :rolleyes:

As I said before, I would not say that this is the reason that Sodom was destroyed. All I say is that it was likely part. I am not of the persuasion that God hates homosexuals and that all homosexuals are going to hell, meaning that while this is one of my most studied areas as far as a topic (homosexuality), I don't think Christianity sees it correctly.


I already addressed this sentence, but I figured I would work with the word "men."

The word I have here in my Hebrew OT is the word "'îysh (אישׁ)," which means, literally, male. To make sure, I go to the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.



The lone argument that can be made that it was more than just men is in verse 4. It refers to this as "all the people" in the KJV. The word "people" is the word " ‛am " in Hebrew, which can also just mean a throng or a flock.


This verse, in fact, gives legitimacy that Sodom's sole evil was not homosexuality. Honestly, I would view inhospitality as a more serious offense, but that is not biblical. That is merely idealogical.

Good thoughts.

Curious - my Hebrew OT gives --Shakab 'enowsh 'iyr 'enowsh Cadom Cabab Bayith Cabab Zaqen Na'ar 'am Qatseh--

Allowing for difference in transliterative versions... I'm still seeing 'enowsh for 'men', which get's a Strong's Concordance reference of #582:

'enowsh (en-oshe'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 582

man, mortal man, person, mankind
of an individual
men (collective)
man, mankind

With a very clear possibility of mankind as a translation - although USUALLY translated as 'man'.

Regarding the 'knowing' of the Angels... it doesn't necessarily follow that Lot expects the mob to rape his daughters... he might be thinking more of acts of violence - since these are such a paranoid crowd, and he and his daughters are strangers.

The only reason to think of sex in this context, is because the assertion has been commonly made that the 'know' in the earlier context was sexual.

Without that - Lot may just not want his closeted daughters to come to harm, as he doesn't want the angels to come to harm... at the hands of a suspicious, unwelcoming, and possibly violent crowd.

Regarding whether or not homosexuality is even a concern in the destruction of Sodom... the angels suggest otherwise. Genesis 19:13 "For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it"... the angels were already going to destroy the city, regardless of the (possibly lascivious) intentions of the crowd.