NationStates Jolt Archive

A recent thread complained that immigration seems to be a non-issue to Americans on this forum. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Americans don't talk much about immigration on this forum because it an extremely complex issue, both politically and economically, and not easily divided along liberal/conservative lines.

Economically, here's the deal as I understand it:

Because Mexico is run by corruption, it has a very large population of poor people and a tiny wealthy minority. The closest place to get a decent job is - you guessed it - America. So, they come here so they can feed their families.

This causes the following problems:
1. The vast majority of the money they make, they send back home. Their is no pressure or motivation, therefore, for wealth creation IN MEXICO. Thus the current state of affairs is reinforced and perpetuated.
2. Yes, they do take many low-paying jobs. However, they are not all jobs that "Americans would not take". When I was a kid, I could make some extra money, help pay for my college, by working on the farm in the summer, or mowing lawns. 90% of the lawn services I see in my neighborhood are Hispanic. And very cheap. Way too cheap to legally cover the cost of business including taxes - most of them take cash only, and their labor, I am sure, does not follow all federal guidelines. So, I get the benefit of cheaper goods and services, at the expense of my own child being able to assist in his own college expenses or obtaining an entry-level job. The cost of living here in Houston is one of the lowest in the nation, and one of the main reasons, I believe, is the availability of cheap labor.
3. Those that do work semi-legally - they have at least a fake SS#, or even a legal one obtained under false pretenses - do pay payroll taxes. However, they never see a dime of those payroll taxes. Which helps with our Social Security problems, but -
4. - Does not offset the ENORMOUS drain on our educational and health resources. America is a wealthy and generous country, but that generosity can only go so far before it is seen as being taken advantage of. Mexico's president, Vicente Fox, actually encourages people to immigrate here illegally.

Security-wise, it seems very foolish to me to leave our southern borders wide open and extremely vulnerable to terrorists crossing and recrossing any time they please.

On a side note:
I object to the characterization of the Minuteman project as a bunch of vigilantes. They do not personally pick up anyone, they simply report the illegal immigrants (yes, illegal, NOT "undocumented workers") to the Border Patrol. Last report, they had reported 18 of them, which the Border Patrol responded to and picked up withing 5 minutes. One wandered into their base camp, nearly dead of hunger and thirst. Food and water were provided. NPR reported that some white supremacists had applied, but were screened out - they are not wanted. The media, and President Bush for reasons I do not understand, wish to ignore the threat.

Bump

Bump again. Either it's really dead right now, or my writing is even more boring than I thought. :(

Bumpety-bump again.

Bump. Boy, I must be a real loser!
**sobs quietly in the corner** :(

Goodbye, cruel world. Parting in such sweet sorrow ...

While most of the reasons are somewhat nice. The fundamental driving reason is price. Pure and simple.

The moment America actually clamped down illegal immigration, cheap labor (as in below minimum wage/unreported income/avoidance of taxes) the price of most basic food products and many other things would go up rather quickly. That spells for a upheaval of the people currently in office. Politicians like to stay in office. Therefor the best thing to do with Immigration is to ignore it. It keeps the price of labor down, avoids the mine-field of the Hispanic community on the matter and lets you keep on playing up the abortion debate.

Basically, we the people, want the cheap prices. Therefor we want immigration. We may say we don't want immigration but the moment someone did clamp down on it we'd burn them alive for making oranges cost more.

Yes I acknowledge there are other reasons out there, but this imo, the one that actually holds the cards.

While most of the reasons are somewhat nice. The fundamental driving reason is price. Pure and simple.

The moment America actually clamped down illegal immigration, cheap labor (as in below minimum wage/unreported income/avoidance of taxes) the price of most basic food products and many other things would go up rather quickly. That spells for a upheaval of the people currently in office. Politicians like to stay in office. Therefor the best thing to do with Immigration is to ignore it. It keeps the price of labor down, avoids the mine-field of the Hispanic community on the matter and lets you keep on playing up the abortion debate.

Basically, we the people, want the cheap prices. Therefor we want immigration. We may say we don't want immigration but the moment someone did clamp down on it we'd burn them alive for making oranges cost more.

Yes I acknowledge there are other reasons out there, but this imo, the one that actually holds the cards.

I agree with you that is the major reason many people want immigration. However, I believe if we did actually clamp down, the following would happen:
To compete with lower-wage workers in Mexico, businesses here would be forced to implement more efficient production methods and technologies, eventually eliminating any need for the cheap labor we have now. By continuing the current cycle, there is no impetus to advance - it's much easier just to do the "safe" thing and use the easily available cheap labor.

Bump. Boy, I must be a real loser!
**sobs quietly in the corner** :(
I'll stop in to say hi, bu tnothing else, cause I don't have anything to say on the subject, so in otherwords this post is spam and shouldn't even exsist in the first place.

in other words You thought that out very well, but I dont' think you'll get too many responses.

I'll stop in to say hi, bu tnothing else, cause I don't have anything to say on the subject, so in otherwords this post is spam and shouldn't even exsist in the first place.

in other words You thought that out very well, but I dont' think you'll get too many responses.
**shaking your hand vigorously in desperate gratitude**

I agree with you that is the major reason many people want immigration. However, I believe if we did actually clamp down, the following would happen:
To compete with lower-wage workers in Mexico, businesses here would be forced to implement more efficient production methods and technologies, eventually eliminating any need for the cheap labor we have now. By continuing the current cycle, there is no impetus to advance - it's much easier just to do the "safe" thing and use the easily available cheap labor.

When it comes to picking Oranges and Strawberries there is little substitute to the Human hand. And there would be no competetion with lower-wage workers in Mexico. They come here because they can't get a job in Mexico in the first palce. If we don't allow them to enter they remain in Mexico, jobless.

**shaking your hand vigorously in desperate gratitude**
anytime

As to the whole idea of "jobs no American would want," I'm sure they would if the growers would actually pay a living wage for the work. However, they have a ready source of workers willing to work for much less than minimum wage, and no reason not to use them and keep their costs down.

Records show that the number of illegals returned to Mexico during harvest season is significantly lower than any other time of the year. So, it's not only the illegal aliens that are the problem; the people charged with keeping them out tend to look the other way.

My only question about this whole "Minutemen" thing is this: If they're only going to observe and report, why are some of them coming armed?

When it comes to picking Oranges and Strawberries there is little substitute to the Human hand. And there would be no competetion with lower-wage workers in Mexico. They come here because they can't get a job in Mexico in the first palce. If we don't allow them to enter they remain in Mexico, jobless.
And put pressure on their own government to fulfill its responsibility. And, as far as there being little substitute for the human hand, the same was said about picking corn and wheat, which is now completely picked by machine.

As to the whole idea of "jobs no American would want," I'm sure they would if the growers would actually pay a living wage for the work. However, they have a ready source of workers willing to work for much less than minimum wage, and no reason not to use them and keep their costs down.

Records show that the number of illegals returned to Mexico during harvest season is significantly lower than any other time of the year. So, it's not only the illegal aliens that are the problem; the people charged with keeping them out tend to look the other way.

My only question about this whole "Minutemen" thing is this: If they're only going to observe and report, why are some of them coming armed?

Because, while the vast majority of illegals, I am sure, are only poor people coming for work, a significant portion are smugglers or drug runners, and having a gun is only prudent in case something unexpected happens.

Why are the Minutemen being characterized as vigilantes, yet war protesters before the Iraq war who vandalized, stopped traffic, etc, were hailed as simply conscientious objectors?

My only question about this whole "Minutemen" thing is this: If they're only going to observe and report, why are some of them coming armed?


Like many americans they fantasize about finding themselves in a position of "self defense" so that they can kill somone.


Also, if fruit growers &c. paid a living wage, fruit would cost a great deal more than it does now and they would lose a lot of money. Plus it would be bad for the politicians &c. for the reasons given previously in the thread.

Alright, I'll throw in here as well.

I have to say, Immigration, especially in Arizona, where I live, is a big issue.

Being a conservative state, the majority of people here want to see those 'social security sucking, non-tax paying damned illegals git the hell out.'

What they often don't realize is what is mentioned above. The illegal immigrants here do take jobs no American wants. They work in the fast food resturants, flipping the burgers, cooking the food, taking out the trash, something no one else wants to do. The company I work for has a bunch of mexicans cooking the food and washing the dishes and cleaning tables. Its hard dirty work, but they do it happily. And we bitch about taking out the trash at our houses.

A lot of Mexicans also work in heavy construction and landscaping here. They are the ones that sit in the hot sun all day nailing planks of wood together. What white guy wants to do that? Certainly not I. Yet, they take these jobs and edure them because they get to send money home to make a decent life for their family, albeit, not helping the Mexican economy. I did a brief stint in basic construction and it sucked. I'm happy that there are people willing to take the job.

They also work as hotel cleaners, or had anyone noticed? Who wants to change sheets all day? No one, but the immigrants will do it.

Now, we all know how useful the immigrants are in the US economic system, so they need to stay. They often help more than people realize they do, which is something I have not seen many conservatives in AZ get.

What many people are more concerned about is the security issue. I tend to agree with the general concensus here. Arizona's border needs to be patched up. We can't have thousands upon thousands of people just walking in. I would like to see a guest worker program to make sure people are here to work. I think if we could do that, then we could just fence off the rest of the border will a 12 foot high concrete wall type thing and let legal people through. This would keep the low-level workers that we need to drive our economy while keeping out the 'security threats'.

Like many americans they fantasize about finding themselves in a position of "self defense" so that they can kill somone.


Also, if fruit growers &c. paid a living wage, fruit would cost a great deal more than it does now and they would lose a lot of money. Plus it would be bad for the politicians &c. for the reasons given previously in the thread.
Nice of you to paint an entire group of people you've never met as fantasizing killers.

I tried to approach this thread with thoughtfulness, looking at as many sides of the issue as possible. Your blanket statement about Americans in general and the Minutemen has no evidentiary or even logical support, and is unworthy of intelligent discussion.

Alright, I'll throw in here as well.

I have to say, Immigration, especially in Arizona, where I live, is a big issue.

Being a conservative state, the majority of people here want to see those 'social security sucking, non-tax paying damned illegals git the hell out.'

What they often don't realize is what is mentioned above. The illegal immigrants here do take jobs no American wants. They work in the fast food resturants, flipping the burgers, cooking the food, taking out the trash, something no one else wants to do. The company I work for has a bunch of mexicans cooking the food and washing the dishes and cleaning tables. Its hard dirty work, but they do it happily. And we bitch about taking out the trash at our houses.

A lot of Mexicans also work in heavy construction and landscaping here. They are the ones that sit in the hot sun all day nailing planks of wood together. What white guy wants to do that? Certainly not I. Yet, they take these jobs and edure them because they get to send money home to make a decent life for their family, albeit, not helping the Mexican economy. I did a brief stint in basic construction and it sucked. I'm happy that there are people willing to take the job.

They also work as hotel cleaners, or had anyone noticed? Who wants to change sheets all day? No one, but the immigrants will do it.

Now, we all know how useful the immigrants are in the US economic system, so they need to stay. They often help more than people realize they do, which is something I have not seen many conservatives in AZ get.

What many people are more concerned about is the security issue. I tend to agree with the general concensus here. Arizona's border needs to be patched up. We can't have thousands upon thousands of people just walking in. I would like to see a guest worker program to make sure people are here to work. I think if we could do that, then we could just fence off the rest of the border will a 12 foot high concrete wall type thing and let legal people through. This would keep the low-level workers that we need to drive our economy while keeping out the 'security threats'.
All the jobs you mentioned, when I was growing up, were typically taken by teenagers or college kids to help get them through. Those are no longer available. If I got laid off, I would have no problem flipping burgers - except I would never be hired, because of the plentiful supply of cheap labor. By continuing with the cheap labor, we are doing Mexico's citizens no favors. Businesses and government in Mexico needs to step up, and as long as we keep hiring illegals to send billions back to Mexico every year, there is no incentive for the government there to change.

As to the guest worker program, I object on moral grounds. People who entered illegally are rewarded by being placed at the head of the queue, in front of those who attempt to enter legally.

Because, while the vast majority of illegals, I am sure, are only poor people coming for work, a significant portion are smugglers or drug runners, and having a gun is only prudent in case something unexpected happens.

Perhaps, however coming into this situation bearing a sidearm will definitely lead some people to believe that they intend violence.

Why are the Minutemen being characterized as vigilantes, yet war protesters before the Iraq war who vandalized, stopped traffic, etc, were hailed as simply conscientious objectors?

You're comparing apples and oranges. On the one hand you have private citizens attempting to take part in law enforcement activities which they really have no reason to do. On the other you're talking about people who obviously are too ignorant of the concepts of peaceful protest and passive resistance to make a worthwhile statement.

All have you have made some very good points, but I must mention the "reconquistas" Presidente Fox is silently encouraging. I'm not just spouting off about some crazy Mexican conspiracy, there *really is* a long-burning desire in Mexico to reclaim some of the American Southwest. If you don't believe me, just do a Google search on "reconquista" and see what you get.

And put pressure on their own government to fulfill its responsibility. And, as far as there being little substitute for the human hand, the same was said about picking corn and wheat, which is now completely picked by machine.

By destroying the plants in the process. You try doing that with Orange trees. Their government won't react to pressure. The Mexican Government is really the Golden and Silver pocket society.

All the jobs you mentioned, when I was growing up, were typically taken by teenagers or college kids to help get them through. Those are no longer available. If I got laid off, I would have no problem flipping burgers - except I would never be hired, because of the plentiful supply of cheap labor. By continuing with the cheap labor, we are doing Mexico's citizens no favors. Businesses and government in Mexico needs to step up, and as long as we keep hiring illegals to send billions back to Mexico every year, there is no incentive for the government there to change.


Well, where I live, most people are rich or uber-rich (my family is upper-middle class). There are enough jobs for the teenagers in resturants and department stores, so they don't bother to look for landscaping or burger-flipping jobs.

Most of the time they don't even have to work. Either that or they're drug dealers.


I was going to make a point, but I forgot what it was.

Perhaps, however coming into this situation bearing a sidearm will definitely lead some people to believe that they intend violence.



You're comparing apples and oranges. On the one hand you have private citizens attempting to take part in law enforcement activities which they really have no reason to do. On the other you're talking about people who obviously are too ignorant of the concepts of peaceful protest and passive resistance to make a worthwhile statement.
Not apples to oranges at all. The peace protesters believed strongly in their cause and acted on that belief, just as the Minutement are. The only difference I see is that, so far, the Minutemen have broken no laws.

They believe they have plenty of reason to take part, since the Bush administration has refused to properly fund the Border patrol.

All the jobs you mentioned, when I was growing up, were typically taken by teenagers or college kids to help get them through. Those are no longer available. If I got laid off, I would have no problem flipping burgers - except I would never be hired, because of the plentiful supply of cheap labor. By continuing with the cheap labor, we are doing Mexico's citizens no favors. Businesses and government in Mexico needs to step up, and as long as we keep hiring illegals to send billions back to Mexico every year, there is no incentive for the government there to change.

As to the guest worker program, I object on moral grounds. People who entered illegally are rewarded by being placed at the head of the queue, in front of those who attempt to enter legally.

Cheap labor makes 99 cent bacon cheese burgers a reality. The answer to the problem is recognize why the immigrant workers work. Reduce/remove the minimum wage and we can get our cheap labor here at home.

I've only heard of the mininte men and know no details (although, yes npr said they were white surprimists before I changed the station) but many people feel that mexicans don't deserve to be here and are somehow making it worse for the rest of us, and feel the need to take the law into their own hands. this has been done before by all nations. if the minite men only provide food, water and shelter, and then return the immigrents to their country they sound pretty good, but there's always 2 sides to every thing I supose.

All have you have made some very good points, but I must mention the "reconquistas" Presidente Fox is silently encouraging. I'm not just spouting off about some crazy Mexican conspiracy, there *really is* a long-burning desire in Mexico to reclaim some of the American Southwest. If you don't believe me, just do a Google search on "reconquista" and see what you get.
I remember something about that from the California recall election. The lieutenant governor (his name escapes me at the moment) was discovered to be a member of La Raza, which supposedly believes in just what you said - that Mexico should get back the southwest for itself.

Cheap labor makes 99 cent bacon cheese burgers a reality. The answer to the problem is recognize why the immigrant workers work. Reduce/remove the minimum wage and we can get our cheap labor here at home.


Yes, and we can watch america become quite a bit like the other countries without wage or labor laws.

You know, the third world.

:rolleyes:

and then there are people such as myself, I will be relocating to WI from Australia soon and I intend to work legally, yet I know full well that jobs in my feild are scarce, I may very well have to take cash jobs until I get secure employment in the automotive electronics industry, my fiance and daughter are already living there, she is earning a base wage and certainly it won't feed all three of us when my contract finishes and move to be with my family, who will need an extra income to support us all.....

By destroying the plants in the process. You try doing that with Orange trees. Their government won't react to pressure. The Mexican Government is really the Golden and Silver pocket society.
I refuse to believe that American ingenuity couldn't come up with something more efficient than picking oranges by hand. Be that as it may, what do you mean by "Goldent and Silver pocket society"? I am not familiar with your allusion.

Here's another thought - no statistics to back it up, just theorizing here:
Perhaps teenage crime could be reduced if immigration were clamped down on. The functions that the immigrants fill will not go away when they go away - there will still be a need for someone to fill those jobs. Teenagers and college-age kids would be ideal. It would fill their time and keep them out of trouble, as well as take some of the burden of finances off their parent's backs. Myself, I get into trouble if I have too much time on my hands. Any comments?

As to the guest worker program, I object on moral grounds. People who entered illegally are rewarded by being placed at the head of the queue, in front of those who attempt to enter legally.
Remember in the good ol' days, back when the United States was a haven for those who had nowhere else to go to be able to survive? You know, the land of opportunity for all? The real root of the problem is, of course, business itself. Would you rather pay somebody more to work less, or pay somebody less to work more? These immigrants are willing to break their backs in order to spare anything they could possibly live on, therefore they're the ones who get hired. What's wrong with competition, anyway? They're willing to work more for less, and in the end, isn't that what business itself is all about?