NationStates Jolt Archive

I never see any Americans talking about it on this forum. This contrasts strongly to Europe, where immigration is one of the biggest issue and a major hot-button.

Is it because Bush allows immigration, but his conservative supporters do not want to give him a grilling over it?

The only real immigration issues in America are as follows [in my opinion]:

Dealing with terrorists at the border.
This isn't something that mainstream America is going to contend with. Most people agree we need better security at our land and sea borders, and better security at our airport; this affects immigration policies, of course, but not hugely, I think.

Dealing with the influx of illegal aliens at the Mexican-American border.Now, this IS a larger issue, and Bush courted the Mexican-American vote during 2003 and 2004 by moving to relax Immigration standards and give "working visas" to about 10,000 of our Mexican illegal immigrant workers. Still, it's not a big thing. The only odd thing about this particular issue is that there are vigilantes on the Mexican border attempting to keep illegal immigrants from crossing. The government is against this, but, hey, whaddayagonnado?

I'm aware of the issues Europe has with immigration - specifically Muslim and Arab immigration - but I consider them primarily motivated by racism and bigotry; at least, my knowledge of them would indicate such. Immigrants are second-class citizens over there. They aren't here in America.

I never see any Americans talking about it on this forum. This contrasts strongly to Europe, where immigration is one of the biggest issue and a major hot-button.

Is it because Bush allows immigration, but his conservative supporters do not want to give him a grilling over it?

Most Americans do not comment on this subject is because, well, we all like cheap labor. Better to make those poor people our slaves and work 50 hrs a week for $50 that is way better than us doing it right? Besides who wants to dig ditches and work the farms for such a low wage.









Ok now that I got the left's attention :D



I believe this is becoming more of an issue and if Bush keeps up with it the way he is going it will kill any Republican chance at winning in the near future. Unless they of course come out and say they are for closing the borders and will do A, B, C to do it.

I'm aware of the issues Europe has with immigration - specifically Muslim and Arab immigration - but I consider them primarily motivated by racism and bigotry; at least, my knowledge of them would indicate such. Immigrants are second-class citizens over there. They aren't here in America.
Yeah that is one of the few things that America does better than Europe IMO - immigration - and it pisses me off that we're so incompetant at it.

You see we can't let too many immigrants in because (racists are actually a small minority in Europe) they and their children use up the government health and education services, while the parents typically are in low-paying jobs. In short, Europe cannot afford mass immigration.

Yes there are idiot Nazis that attack immigrants, but please do not think that we are all like that, or that our immigration policies are based on racism.

I believe this is becoming more of an issue and if Bush keeps up with it the way he is going it will kill any Republican chance at winning in the near future. Unless they of course come out and say they are for closing the borders and will do A, B, C to do it.
Yeah, I had a lot of trouble believing that average joe conservative American is pro-immigration. Not that I think he is racist, it's just that I've never known any conservatives, anywhere, to be pro-immigration.

From what I understand, immigration in the US is only a problem when you're talking about illegal Mexican immigrants. People are scared of losing their jobs to people who will work for $5 an hour and still be making 10 times more than what they would be making in Mexico.

Though, with major companies moving jobs and productions overseas anyway, what's the point of closing borders when your $10 factory job is still going to be given to a poor kid in India for $1 a day (if that)?

You see we can't let too many immigrants in because (racists are actually a small minority in Europe) they and their children use up the government health and education services, while the parents typically are in low-paying jobs. In short, Europe cannot afford mass immigration.

Such xenophobic bull.

I don't think it's a big deal. If someone wants to come here, let them. IT's good for the economy anyway.

I believe this is becoming more of an issue and if Bush keeps up with it the way he is going it will kill any Republican chance at winning in the near future. Unless they of course come out and say they are for closing the borders and will do A, B, C to do it.

I don't know if he'll kill Republican chances at winning in the near future. Mostly because both parties have the exact same positions on immigration policy. They're extremely frustrating in that sense. But there is a rationale for it and you basically summed it up. There's not a lot of natural born Americans that are willing to harvest cherries, apples, strawberries, and peaches here in Michigan. As a result we have migrant workers that do it and get paid better then they were in Mexico.

President Bush is trying to get some immigration legislation passed right now and I really don't remember what it's all about. The extent of my knowledge on the issue came from watching Lou Dobbs. I haven't watched his show for a couple weeks so my memory isn't all that fresh. All I remember was that it'd give current illegal migrant workers citizenship and future ones a better process for getting citizenship. That seems odd to me since we already have a migrant worker program. Maybe the law would just make them citizens. I don't remember. In any case, that's a huge cop out.

"Oh, you don't like illegal aliens in our country? Well... they're not illegal now! Haha, try and complain now! Now please, leave me alone. Go back to your Brave New World-esque lives. Please?"

Yeah, I had a lot of trouble believing that average joe conservative American is pro-immigration. Not that I think he is racist, it's just that I've never known any conservatives, anywhere, to be pro-immigration.


It isn't that we are not pro-immigration, but we are pro-legal immigration. The problem that is brewing right now under the surface is the open boarders and the fact that illegals can get in with little to no trouble. All Bush has to do is beef up the Boarder Patrol and stiffen the laws for those illegals that get in. Right now though he is stabbing the Conservatives in the back by trying to get, I am not positive as I do not have the exact number, 10 million illegals legal green cards. That is where most Conservatives/Republicans will part ways. Yes there is a huge difference between a Conservative and Republican.

Such xenophobic bull.
I'm not xenophobic. Do you deny that any immigrant uses public services? I'm not trying to say that they're evil or anything like that.

I don't know if he'll kill Republican chances at winning in the near future. Mostly because both parties have the exact same positions on immigration policy. They're extremely frustrating in that sense. But there is a rationale for it and you basically summed it up. There's not a lot of natural born Americans that are willing to harvest cherries, apples, strawberries, and peaches here in Michigan. As a result we have migrant workers that do it and get paid better then they were in Mexico.

President Bush is trying to get some immigration legislation passed right now and I really don't remember what it's all about. The extent of my knowledge on the issue came from watching Lou Dobbs. I haven't watched his show for a couple weeks so my memory isn't all that fresh. All I remember was that it'd give current illegal migrant workers citizenship and future ones a better process for getting citizenship. That seems odd to me since we already have a migrant worker program. Maybe the law would just make them citizens. I don't remember. In any case, that's a huge cop out.

"Oh, you don't like illegal aliens in our country? Well... they're not illegal now! Haha, try and complain now! Now please, leave me alone. Go back to your Brave New World-esque lives. Please?"

I talk to a lot of Republicans, not only in Michigan where I live, but all across the country. I would say there is atleast 40% that are so pissed off about his current policy I could see them voting for someone else in the future. Now don't get me wrong I am not saying this will happen for 2006, but I do think it will happen by 2008 unless something is done to quell the illegal migrations.

Yes there is a huge difference between a Conservative and Republican.
Then why do the vast majority of self-proclaimed American conservatives support Bush and Republicans?

I talk to a lot of Republicans, not only in Michigan where I live, but all across the country. I would say there is atleast 40% that are so pissed off about his current policy I could see them voting for someone else in the future. Now don't get me wrong I am not saying this will happen for 2006, but I do think it will happen by 2008 unless something is done to quell the illegal migrations.

Maybe if a viable independent runs. Ross Perot had a shot at winning. It's certainly not impossible. I still don't think they'd vote for Democrats. Not in 2008; not with their tenative line-up. Being tenative, it is subject to change, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm thinking presidential elections though. If you're talking about Congress then I definitely see independents or 'mavericks' brand new to the Republican or Democratic parties winning seats.

I'm aware of the issues Europe has with immigration - specifically Muslim and Arab immigration - but I consider them primarily motivated by racism and bigotry; at least, my knowledge of them would indicate such. Immigrants are second-class citizens over there. They aren't here in America.

What complete and utter generalisation.

Immigrants are not second class citizens in Europe - far from it. They are entitled to all the government benefits from the moment they arrive and have access to education, the police, the fire services, the NHS and other public services even if they don't pay any taxes. Becoming a British citizen is laughably easily. This is the problem.

Immigration is a necessity: all reasonable Europeans accept that. European nations aren't large enough any more to sustain their own economies using natives so immigration is needed. However lax immigration control means that too many immigrants are abusing the system, taking British welfare without even bother to learn our language or get a job. The problem is large and needs to be far, far stricter with quotas imposed on all immigrants except UN refugees and strict citizenship tests that measure the capacity to speak English and handle the British way of life.

...or that our immigration policies are based on racism.

What immigration policies? The one that lets anyone across the southern border?

Yeah, I had a lot of trouble believing that average joe conservative American is pro-immigration. Not that I think he is racist, it's just that I've never known any conservatives, anywhere, to be pro-immigration.

You just met him. I'm "average Joe conservative American" and I believe in LEGAL immigration. I'm dead set against any illegal immigration and think all illegal immigrants should be rounded up and sent home. Oh, and send them a bill for the transportation.

What immigration policies? The one that lets anyone across the southern border?
I was referring to European policies, not American ones.

I never see any Americans talking about it on this forum. This contrasts strongly to Europe, where immigration is one of the biggest issue and a major hot-button.

I know this is wandering slightly off topic, but what is Ireland's policy on immigration?

The only place I ever really go when I go to Ireland is a small town in Tipperary to see family, so I don't have a good idea on it.

I know this is wandering slightly off topic, but what is Ireland's policy on immigration?

The only place I ever really go when I go to Ireland is a small town in Tipperary to see family, so I don't have a good idea on it.
Ireland has the shittiest immigration policy, ever. We take in roughly 2,500 asylum seekers every year, but here's the thing that really annoys everyone. The government doesn't allow them to work for a living. They are forced to sponge off the government. The "rationale" behind this is that if we let the asylum seekers work, then Ireland would apparently become an immigration magnet. Another enraging feature of the Irish system is the apparently random deportations. Recently a Nigerian woman and one of her children were deported back to Nigeria. Hold on, did I imply that she had more than one child? Yes, she did! Her three remaining children were not allowed to come with her, so they were left to go into hiding in Athlone where, I understand nobody knows exactly where they are. We need a change of government badly.

What town in Tipperary do you visit.

Ireland has the shittiest immigration policy, ever. We take in roughly 2,500 asylum seekers every year, but here's the thing that really annoys everyone. The government doesn't allow them to work for a living. They are forced to sponge off the government. The "rationale" behind this is that if we let the asylum seekers work, then Ireland would apparently become an immigration magnet. Another enraging feature of the Irish system is the apparently random deportations. Recently a Nigerian woman and one of her children were deported back to Nigeria. Hold on, did I imply that she had more than one child? Yes, she did! Her three remaining children were not allowed to come with her, so they were left to go into hiding in Athlone where, I understand nobody knows exactly where they are. We need a change of government badly.

Right. That does seem screwy.

I knew that Ireland revised its policy on who gets a passport, but that was about it.

What town in Tipperary do you visit.

Nenagh. Lots of family there, so, yay! Though I haven't been there in a while :(

I knew that Ireland revised its policy on who gets a passport, but that was about it.

Yes, last June 79% of us voted to amend our constitution to state that for a child born in Ireland to recieve Irish citizenship, at least one parent must be an Irish citizen, or at least one parent must have lived here for 3 of the past 5 years.

Immigration is a necessity: all reasonable Europeans accept that. European nations aren't large enough any more to sustain their own economies using natives so immigration is needed. However lax immigration control means that too many immigrants are abusing the system, taking British welfare without even bother to learn our language or get a job. The problem is large and needs to be far, far stricter with quotas imposed on all immigrants except UN refugees and strict citizenship tests that measure the capacity to speak English and handle the British way of life.
This is true. The economies western countries sustain demand alot more population than we can supply with our dwindling birthrate. Immigration is essential to buoy up our inflated economic system, yet so many people percieve it as a drain on services. It isn't. WE need THEM, as much as the other way around.
I don't know how it is in the States, but none of the people I know in Canada discuss immigration in anyhting but a positive light. What with "Multicultural Mosaic", inclusiveness, and generall goodwill, Canada is a nice place to be.....not that we don't have issues.

Conservatives are generally pissed off with the way Bush has handled immigration (I've heard the word "amesty" used vehemently on some right-leaning blogs).

Of course, there's nothing they can do about it. What are they gonna do, vote Democrat? They'd never vote Democrat. They'd bite their tongue like Pat Buchanan did and endorse the lesser of the two evils.

Get used to it Republicans. We Democrats have had to put up with this "lesser of the two evils" BS for a long time as well. It's inevitable in a static two-party oligarchy.

MADDOX, seriously. (http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart)
and, yes, I will post this on EVERY immigration thread I see.

Yeah that is one of the few things that America does better than Europe IMO - immigration - and it pisses me off that we're so incompetant at it.

You see we can't let too many immigrants in because (racists are actually a small minority in Europe) they and their children use up the government health and education services, while the parents typically are in low-paying jobs. In short, Europe cannot afford mass immigration.

Yes there are idiot Nazis that attack immigrants, but please do not think that we are all like that, or that our immigration policies are based on racism.

I don't think Europe is any more racist than any other nation. The difference in America is that we're all immigrants in one way or another. Everbody came here from someplace else (with the exception of the Indians) so we're a little more tolerant than Europe in that respect.

I don't think Europe is any more racist than any other nation. The difference in America is that we're all immigrants in one way or another. Everbody came here from someplace else (with the exception of the Indians) so we're a little more tolerant than Europe in that respect.
Good point! I'd be interested to know the proportion of people whose families have been here for more than a couple generations. Not many, I'd surmise.

Americans don't talk much about immigration on this forum because it an extremely complex issue, both politically and economically, and not easily divided along liberal/conservative lines.

I object to the characterization of the Minuteman project as a bunch of vigilantes. They do not personally pick up anyone, they simply report the illegal immigrants (yes, illegal, NOT "undocumented workers") to the Border Patrol. Last report, they had reported 18 of them, which the Border Patrol responded to and picked up withing 5 minutes. One wandered into their base camp, nearly dead of hunger and thirst. Food and water were provided. NPR reported that some white supremacists had applied, but were screened out - they are not wanted. The media, and President Bush for reasons I do not understand, wish to ignore the threat.

Economically, here's the deal as I understand it:

Because Mexico is run by corruption, it has a very large population of poor people and a tiny wealthy minority. The closest place to get a decent job is - you guessed it - America. So, they come here so they can feed their families.

This causes the following problems:
1. The vast majority of the money they make, they send back home. Their is no pressure or motivation, therefore, for wealth creation IN MEXICO. Thus the current state of affairs is reinforced and perpetuated.
2. Yes, they do take many low-paying jobs. However, they are not all jobs that "Americans would not take". When I was a kid, I could make some extra money, help pay for my college, by working on the farm in the summer, or mowing lawns. 90% of the lawn services I see in my neighborhood are Hispanic. And very cheap. Way too cheap to legally cover the cost of business including taxes - most of them take cash only, and their labor, I am sure, does not follow all federal guidelines. So, I get the benefit of cheaper goods and services, at the expense of my own child being able to assist in his own college expenses or obtaining an entry-level job. The cost of living here in Houston is one of the lowest in the nation, and one of the main reasons, I believe, is the availability of cheap labor.
3. Those that do work semi-legally - they have at least a fake SS#, or even a legal one obtained under false pretenses - do pay payroll taxes. However, they never see a dime of those payroll taxes. Which helps with our Social Security problems, but -
4. - Does not offset the ENORMOUS drain on our educational and health resources. America is a wealthy and generous country, but that generosity can only go so far before it is seen as being taken advantage of. Mexico's president, Vicente Fox, actually encourages people to immigrate here illegally.

Security-wise, it seems very foolish to me to leave our southern borders wide open and extremely vulnerable to terrorists crossing and recrossing any time they please.

I never see any Americans talking about it on this forum. This contrasts strongly to Europe, where immigration is one of the biggest issue and a major hot-button.

Is it because Bush allows immigration, but his conservative supporters do not want to give him a grilling over it?


Actually i posted a few weeks ago on the need for an intervention/invasion into mexico. Sort of a half joke. But some serious things were discussed.

What complete and utter generalisation.

Immigrants are not second class citizens in Europe - far from it. They are entitled to all the government benefits from the moment they arrive and have access to education, the police, the fire services, the NHS and other public services even if they don't pay any taxes. Becoming a British citizen is laughably easily. This is the problem.I know a family of Jewish Ukrainians who live in Germany. There, at least, they're considered second-class citizens in culture and society if not in law.

So, there's that.

As for my generalization, I call it as I see it, NBG. European "INS" is more like the Gestapo, and the standards for immigration and work visa are ridiculously high compared to American standards.

*snip*

I'm aware of the issues Europe has with immigration - specifically Muslim and Arab immigration - but I consider them primarily motivated by racism and bigotry; at least, my knowledge of them would indicate such. Immigrants are second-class citizens over there. They aren't here in America.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but much of US immigration policy is motivated by racism and bigotry as well.

And Hispanic immigrants are treated as second-class citizens. Particularly agricultural workers.

OK, everyboy, flame away. :D

Illegal immigration will always be present in America. Who will clean the bathrooms in McDonalds? Work farms? Or do any job none of us would want to do for low wages to keep businesses thriving?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but much of US immigration policy is motivated by racism and bigotry as well.Howso?

And Hispanic immigrants are treated as second-class citizens. Particularly agricultural workers.Again, howso?

Again, howso?

Illegal immigrants have basically replaced blacks as slaves. Although they get more liberties, like they make money and can send money to their families or do whatever they want with it. But the idea is cheap labor. And that is a strong piston in the American economy. Slaves needed to be replaced so we have illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants have basically replaced blacks as slaves. Although they get more liberties, like they make money and can send money to their families or do whatever they want with it. But the idea is cheap labor. And that is a strong piston in the American economy. Slaves needed to be replaced so we have illegal immigrants.But is this the result of a "second class citizen" policy that results from their status as immigrants, or is it merely a function of capitalism? I would argue the latter; it's not a matter of immigration, it's a matter of supply and demand.

But is this the result of a "second class citizen" policy that results from their status as immigrants, or is it merely a function of capitalism? I would argue the latter; it's not a matter of immigration, it's a matter of supply and demand.

I would argue the latter as well. They may have a harder, more humble life but not because there's some set policy. My point wasn't so much to argue this but rather to say illegal immigration IS a non-issue in America because it serves to great a purpose to put a stop to it. Everyone in power knows this and no one in power would be willing to lead a fight to end illegal immigration.

And then, I tried to expand on the point by saying, cheap labor or slave labor has always been a part of American history and a strong part behind its economic vehicle.

Americans don't talk much about immigration on this forum because it an extremely complex issue, both politically and economically, and not easily divided along liberal/conservative lines.

I object to the characterization of the Minuteman project as a bunch of vigilantes. They do not personally pick up anyone, they simply report the illegal immigrants (yes, illegal, NOT "undocumented workers") to the Border Patrol. Last report, they had reported 18 of them, which the Border Patrol responded to and picked up withing 5 minutes. One wandered into their base camp, nearly dead of hunger and thirst. Food and water were provided. NPR reported that some white supremacists had applied, but were screened out - they are not wanted. The media, and President Bush for reasons I do not understand, wish to ignore the threat.

Economically, here's the deal as I understand it:

Because Mexico is run by corruption, it has a very large population of poor people and a tiny wealthy minority. The closest place to get a decent job is - you guessed it - America. So, they come here so they can feed their families.

This causes the following problems:
1. The vast majority of the money they make, they send back home. Their is no pressure or motivation, therefore, for wealth creation IN MEXICO. Thus the current state of affairs is reinforced and perpetuated.
2. Yes, they do take many low-paying jobs. However, they are not all jobs that "Americans would not take". When I was a kid, I could make some extra money, help pay for my college, by working on the farm in the summer, or mowing lawns. 90% of the lawn services I see in my neighborhood are Hispanic. And very cheap. Way too cheap to legally cover the cost of business including taxes - most of them take cash only, and their labor, I am sure, does not follow all federal guidelines. So, I get the benefit of cheaper goods and services, at the expense of my own child being able to assist in his own college expenses or obtaining an entry-level job. The cost of living here in Houston is one of the lowest in the nation, and one of the main reasons, I believe, is the availability of cheap labor.
3. Those that do work semi-legally - they have at least a fake SS#, or even a legal one obtained under false pretenses - do pay payroll taxes. However, they never see a dime of those payroll taxes. Which helps with our Social Security problems, but -
4. - Does not offset the ENORMOUS drain on our educational and health resources. America is a wealthy and generous country, but that generosity can only go so far before it is seen as being taken advantage of. Mexico's president, Vicente Fox, actually encourages people to immigrate here illegally.

Security-wise, it seems very foolish to me to leave our southern borders wide open and extremely vulnerable to terrorists crossing and recrossing any time they please.


Hey, where are from in Houston? I grew up in Pearland

I never see any Americans talking about it on this forum. This contrasts strongly to Europe, where immigration is one of the biggest issue and a major hot-button.

Is it because Bush allows immigration, but his conservative supporters do not want to give him a grilling over it?
Ask the guys of the minutemanproject (http://www.minutemanproject.com/) if it is a non issue for yanks.

Good point! I'd be interested to know the proportion of people whose families have been here for more than a couple generations. Not many, I'd surmise.

That's the one thing that's constant about this country, immigration. Your average white and black family has been here for a few generations but everybody else has probably been here for not more than a couple I assume. Immigrants built this country and this diversity is our greatest strength in my opinion. After all, it says on the Statue of Liberty "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Hmm. Apparently they captured 18 illegals on their first patrol.

Hmm. Apparently they captured 18 illegals on their first patrol.
Not only 'captured' instead of 'shot' but they actually gave care to one of them that stumbled into their camp.

Yeah, I had a lot of trouble believing that average joe conservative American is pro-immigration. Not that I think he is racist, it's just that I've never known any conservatives, anywhere, to be pro-immigration.

Actually, "conservative vs. liberal" doesn't define immigration for Americans, since we're ALL immigrants if you go back far enough.

Anyway: The only immigration friction (except for illegal immigration and terrorists) is between immigrant GROUPS.
In general, the newest group gets picked on by the previous newest group. This generally stops after two generations.

In the old days, the English beat on the Irish. Then the Irish beat on the Italians and Poles.

These days? The Chinese have almost a caste system going on, and the Russians and Koreans are tough on the Karens and some of the other groups.

However, the average American (read: at least one American grandparent) usually doesn't care. :D

Actually i posted a few weeks ago on the need for an intervention/invasion into mexico. Sort of a half joke. But some serious things were discussed.

It's been done before... under President Polk.

You may have heard of the outcome... a few states called Texas, California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, (and a part of Colorado)...

I would argue the latter as well. They may have a harder, more humble life but not because there's some set policy. My point wasn't so much to argue this but rather to say illegal immigration IS a non-issue in America because it serves to great a purpose to put a stop to it. Everyone in power knows this and no one in power would be willing to lead a fight to end illegal immigration.

And then, I tried to expand on the point by saying, cheap labor or slave labor has always been a part of American history and a strong part behind its economic vehicle.Well then, I guess... I... agree.

Hm.

This is uncommon.

If I was American I'd be tempted to volunteer to help the Mexicans over the border.

I'd also be interested in helping USA-nians into Canada. Ultimately I think it would be rather cool if Spanish was the official national language of the USA.

If I was American I'd be tempted to volunteer to help the Mexicans over the border.

I'd also be interested in helping USA-nians into Canada. Ultimately I think it would be rather cool if Spanish was the official national language of the USA.

There is no official language in the US.

There is no official language in the US.

Not yet. ;) :D

That's the one thing that's constant about this country, immigration. Your average white and black family has been here for a few generations but everybody else has probably been here for not more than a couple I assume. Immigrants built this country and this diversity is our greatest strength in my opinion. After all, it says on the Statue of Liberty "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
and now that the country has been built, it needs to stop. i am willing to get another month of being called a racist, but responding to this post is worth it. Yes, immigrants built this country. chinese, italians, and irish workers, along with many other european races worked hard to create our formidable infrastructure and supplied most of the labor force in the last 200 years. let me point out one thing. they WERE NOT sending the american dollars they earned home to their country the way mexicans are today. they learned the language, sent their children to school, and became proud capitalists. they opened stores, restaurants, and contributed many positive cultural traditions to american society. THEY WERE NOT demanding school be taught in their native languages, they were not risking the lives of their children by refusing to pay for health insurance, and instead using emergency services for basic medical care, they were not insisting on free services, higher wages and lower living costs so they could work hard to improve their native country.
i live in the most concentrated illegal immigrant population in the US- southern california. and its becoming Tijuana. 8 bILLION dollars is sent to meico and other latin american countries per year and has it improved those countries economies? hell no, it hasnt.
i agree, the average american (read californian)needs to mow their own fucking lawn, clean their own house, and not use the labor. society has taken a turn twards the lazy, and there are groups out there, with people like myself, trying to reverse this trend. and before you call them, or me, nazis, just make sure you know a little bit about me first.

There is no official language in the US.
many states though, have passed laws adopting english as their official language.

many states though, have passed laws adopting english as their official language.

:confused: Really? When?

:confused: Really? When?
give me a sec for some links

alaska- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska

massachusetts- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts

iowa- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa

i believe there are 27 in all.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." - was on the Statue of Liberty when we got it.


"If I was American I'd be tempted to volunteer to help the Mexicans over the border. I'd also be interested in helping USA-nians into Canada. Ultimately I think it would be rather cool if Spanish was the official national language of the USA."

...I pity you...I would be tempted to beat the crap out of someone volunteering to aid an illegal in breaking US law. The same with the willingness to break Canadian law. Without the rule of law we slouch towards eventual anarchy. Anarchy is cool when you rent a room and don't have a job and spend your time being babysat by liberal professors who can't hack it in the real world so they survive on tenure at cost to the state. When you own something and provide a living for others the protection of law becomes much more important.

Stop illegal immigration, fugitives at the borders, round them up inside the country and imprison them. Then bust anyone aiding them. Sanctions against Mexico for aiding them also.

:D and now that the country has been built, it needs to stop. i am willing to get another month of being called a racist, but responding to this post is worth it. Yes, immigrants built this country. chinese, italians, and irish workers, along with many other european races worked hard to create our formidable infrastructure and supplied most of the labor force in the last 200 years. let me point out one thing. they WERE NOT sending the american dollars they earned home to their country the way mexicans are today. they learned the language, sent their children to school, and became proud capitalists. they opened stores, restaurants, and contributed many positive cultural traditions to american society. THEY WERE NOT demanding school be taught in their native languages, they were not risking the lives of their children by refusing to pay for health insurance, and instead using emergency services for basic medical care, they were not insisting on free services, higher wages and lower living costs so they could work hard to improve their native country.
i live in the most concentrated illegal immigrant population in the US- southern california. and its becoming Tijuana. 8 bILLION dollars is sent to meico and other latin american countries per year and has it improved those countries economies? hell no, it hasnt.
i agree, the average american (read californian)needs to mow their own fucking lawn, clean their own house, and not use the labor. society has taken a turn twards the lazy, and there are groups out there, with people like myself, trying to reverse this trend. and before you call them, or me, nazis, just make sure you know a little bit about me first.

hahah. of course this would kill the thread :D

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." - was on the Statue of Liberty when we got it.


"If I was American I'd be tempted to volunteer to help the Mexicans over the border. I'd also be interested in helping USA-nians into Canada. Ultimately I think it would be rather cool if Spanish was the official national language of the USA."

...I pity you...I would be tempted to beat the crap out of someone volunteering to aid an illegal in breaking US law. The same with the willingness to break Canadian law. Without the rule of law we slouch towards eventual anarchy. Anarchy is cool when you rent a room and don't have a job and spend your time being babysat by liberal professors who can't hack it in the real world so they survive on tenure at cost to the state. When you own something and provide a living for others the protection of law becomes much more important.

Stop illegal immigration, fugitives at the borders, round them up inside the country and imprison them. Then bust anyone aiding them. Sanctions against Mexico for aiding them also.
very nice point!

Originally Posted by Anarchic Conceptions
I know this is wandering slightly off topic, but what is Ireland's policy on immigration?



Ireland's problem is that the system by which people were granted asylum in Ireland was (and still is, though to a lesser extent) fundamentally flawed. Ireland rapidly became the highest receipent of asylum seekers per capita in the EU.

Fact : Applicants in 1990 : 160
Applicants in 2000 : > 12, 000

To become a citizen of Ireland, all one had to do was give birth to a child within the Republic. As a result alot of heavily pregnant women travelled here. (This law has now been revoked)

Fact : Since 1998 more than 6,000 non-nationals have been granted residency because they had a child born in Ireland. And another 6,000 such applications are currently moving through the system.

Fact : The Office of the Refugee Application Commissioner estimated that between 45% to 50% of female asylum seekers are visibly pregnant at the time of application

People came in and while their cases were being heard they lived here but could not work. Now that their cases have been refused they are being deported, but as they've lived here for maybe 2-3 years it's getting lots of publicity.

Fact : Over 10,000 illegal immigrants are to be deported.

There have been some high profile cases recently that were wrong, but I'm starting to think that the media is just looking for a human interest story to throw at the government.

I'm not being racist now, I'm being realist: Nigerians a huge proportion of the legal and illegal immigrants in Ireland. Some people think that they were/are exploiting the system and helping relatives and friends to come over after they were granted asylum. The Department of Justice has found evidence that organised gangs are assisting immigrants to enter Ireland illegally.

Fact: Highest countries of origin 2004
1st Nigeria - 955
2st Romania - 94

Also, it is EU policy to process asylum seekers in the country they originally arrive in......... look at the map...... Nigeria - Ireland????

Doesn't make sense!

Americans are always run down for not speaking more than one language. Hosts in other countries gripe about Americans not learning the language. In my travels I have focused on obtaining language skills prior to my departure from the States.

Why should we change our linguistic infrastructure for fugitives from south of the border? As a German, how would you feel if your local township's meetings are going to be held in Turkish? Or in France is Arabic was the only language at a city council meeting?

Would I be justified in travelling to South Korea and criticizing them for not using enough English? It ludicrous and assinine to shame America for preserving our culture. Every other country on the face of the Earth does the same.

I really appreciate this forum and thank all for participating. I enjoy the variety of viewpoints.

>snip<

Why should we change our linguistic infrastructure for fugitives from south of the border? As a German, how would you feel if your local township's meetings are going to be held in Turkish? Or in France is Arabic was the only language at a city council meeting?
>>>snip<<<<<<<<<<
I really appreciate this forum and thank all for participating. I enjoy the variety of viewpoints.
thank you thank you thank you. can you imagine people invading your country and switching the language, culture and customs? isnt this what the world over got mad at hitler for doing to the jews in germaany? yet it is acceptable to these liberals when it comes to the united states. it is a hypocritical ignorant, and one sided viewpoint.

I never see any Americans talking about it on this forum. This contrasts strongly to Europe, where immigration is one of the biggest issue and a major hot-button.

Is it because Bush allows immigration, but his conservative supporters do not want to give him a grilling over it?
Neither. It is because the US has always dealt with immigrants. Most of us Americans are either decended from immigrants, or immigrants themselves. There are issues with illegal immigration from Mexico, but there is no problem with legal immigrants. However, illegals do fill menial jobs in the US, such as a janitor or gardener. It's contributing to a large underground economy, though it hasn't ben a major issue yet.

Neither. It is because the US has always dealt with immigrants. Most of us Americans are either decended from immigrants, or immigrants themselves. There are issues with illegal immigration from Mexico, but there is no problem with legal immigrants. However, illegals do fill menial jobs in the US, such as a janitor or gardener. It's contributing to a large underground economy, though it hasn't ben a major issue yet.
read my long post for what its contributing to. where do you live? it is a huge issue here in california. i keep off the boards because usually some one just brands me a nazi and moves on. it is very difficult, also, to discuss illegal immigration matters to people who dont live in a society that has been overrun with them.

I'm not being racist now, I'm being realist: Nigerians a huge proportion of the legal and illegal immigrants in Ireland. Some people think that they were/are exploiting the system and helping relatives and friends to come over after they were granted asylum. The Department of Justice has found evidence that organised gangs are assisting immigrants to enter Ireland illegally.

Fact: Highest countries of origin 2004
1st Nigeria - 955
2st Romania - 94

Also, it is EU policy to process asylum seekers in the country they originally arrive in......... look at the map...... Nigeria - Ireland????

Doesn't make sense!
Sure it does. If they come by ship as stowaways. Africans in general in some German cities are also the biggests drugdealers. I once saw a documentary about a special police taskforce in Hamburg. 9 out of 10 dealers they caught were from Africa. And many of those had been arrested and deported more then once. And gangs that smuggle in illegals, thats not just an Irish problem either.

Actually, "conservative vs. liberal" doesn't define immigration for Americans, since we're ALL immigrants if you go back far enough.

Anyway: The only immigration friction (except for illegal immigration and terrorists) is between immigrant GROUPS.
In general, the newest group gets picked on by the previous newest group. This generally stops after two generations.

In the old days, the English beat on the Irish. Then the Irish beat on the Italians and Poles.

These days? The Chinese have almost a caste system going on, and the Russians and Koreans are tough on the Karens and some of the other groups.

However, the average American (read: at least one American grandparent) usually doesn't care. :D

Actually Native Americans aren't immigrants. I'm a MicMac, we are from the Americas, so you lose :P Granted I'm part Irish., Scottish, and german. But I am still Native.

Actually Native Americans aren't immigrants. I'm a MicMac, we are from the Americas, so you lose :P Granted I'm part Irish., Scottish, and german. But I am still Native.

...so, you're part immigrant. QED. ;)
(Also, the MicMacs/American Indians aren't native either... you guys walked over the landbridge from Siberia to Alaska... :D )

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." - was on the Statue of Liberty when we got it.

Stop illegal immigration, fugitives at the borders, round them up inside the country and imprison them. Then bust anyone aiding them. Sanctions against Mexico for aiding them also.


Does this count as doublespeak?

Does this count as doublespeak?In a way, yes. Opening up America to the poor, tired and oppressed unless they don't go through the proper procedure and fill out all the paperwork and take the proper tests and pass the right standards is a philosophy at odds with itself.

Then why do the vast majority of self-proclaimed American conservatives support Bush and Republicans?


Because the Democrats are the greatest evil our Country faces, it is better to have someone in office that holds some of our beliefs than someone that holds none of them and wishes to destroy this country.

Maybe if a viable independent runs. Ross Perot had a shot at winning. It's certainly not impossible. I still don't think they'd vote for Democrats. Not in 2008; not with their tenative line-up. Being tenative, it is subject to change, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm thinking presidential elections though. If you're talking about Congress then I definitely see independents or 'mavericks' brand new to the Republican or Democratic parties winning seats.

They will not vote for a Democrat but they could always sit home. Therby giving the Democrats the needed wiggle room to win. Can you say 44%, as Clinton got in the 90's? That man never got a majority of the vote, hell he even recieved less of the vote than any elected President before him.

However lax immigration control means that too many immigrants are abusing the system, taking British welfare without even bother to learn our language or get a job. The problem is large and needs to be far, far stricter with quotas imposed on all immigrants except UN refugees and strict citizenship tests that measure the capacity to speak English and handle the British way of life.

This would be called Racists if any conservative said it, <in a snooty liberal voice> " You can not demand they learn our language how unfair to there culture and how demeaning of our intent to the world"

Sorry couldn't help myself

I don't think it's a big deal. If someone wants to come here, let them. IT's good for the economy anyway.

its both good and bad.. but when you weigh the numbers.. its mostly more bad then good... and btw.. i am an American and I have spoken of immigration (only illegal immigration) problems America is facing.. and it is a growing issue. SHould have been an issue long ago but no politican will go near it with the lobbying power of latinos in America.

Its true illegal immigrants fill many jobs (mainly agricultural and domestic jobs) which native workers largely dont want to work, for the pay they are worth. However, illegals also work in many jobs which American natives DO want to work and dramatically effect large unions and thier ability to function (power vs management).

Pros
. fill up jobs no one wants
. depress salaries keeping inflation low
. willing to work hard and are largely dependable
. More entrepenorial then many others in their socio-economic segment.
. Allow companies to remain more compeditive in the world market not being forced out source.

However there are many cons as well
Cons
. Take up jobs in sectors (like maufacutring, retail etc) which american blue colar natives trive on
. Use Healthcare services and other social services while not paying federal or state taxes on income and make no contributions to programs like medicade, Social Security, dont pay into public education programs (which their children use) etc.
. Undercut vital organizations like Labor Unions making it more difficult for workers to compete in the workforce.
. promot illegal markets as they use illegal means to enter the country through trafficing, and illegal documentation production.

And you can be Pro immigration while anti illegal immigration i might add.. Advocating against illegal immigration is not racists.. its realist. No country can sustain unregulated levels of immigration .. especially the US when 50% of Mexicans have a desire to leave their country!

Quite frankly im for one of two extremes.. Shut down of Mexican boarder and strictly enforce the laws we have today targeting companies who hire illegal immigrants (cut out the pull factors and they will not come)... or massive policy change focusing on issues in Mexcio helping them to rebuild their infrastructure making the country more hospitiable to its own inhabitance and open the boarder completely alllowing free movement of people.... (proven to work as in the EU)

This would be called Racists if any conservative said it, <in a snooty liberal voice> " You can not demand they learn our language how unfair to there culture and how demeaning of our intent to the world"

Sorry couldn't help myself

actually in conjuction with this.. there are states which are making moves to make English the offical language in America (so immigrants can't demand services in other langauges) ... which in my opinion makes sense.... if your immigrating to a new country you should be ready to conform to that country.. not it conform to you.

actually in conjuction with this.. there are states which are making moves to make English the offical language in America (so immigrants can't demand services in other langauges) ... which in my opinion makes sense.... if your immigrating to a new country you should be ready to conform to that country.. not it conform to you.


I agree 100%, If I am going to be visiting another Country, I would try my best to learn the native language of that country. More out of respect for their culture and the fact I hate it when I run into some visitor here that can not speak a lick of English.

and in general resposne to the question this thread asks.. it basically (for now) is a non issue... the only issue is illegal immigration which is growing.. this is in large part because hispanic have hugh lobbying power (even to the point of demanding rights like driver lisences for illegal immigrants) Even though a drivers lisence is a privilage not a right. and politicians both democrats and republicans are too afraid to address it.

Actually Native Americans aren't immigrants. I'm a MicMac, we are from the Americas, so you lose :P Granted I'm part Irish., Scottish, and german. But I am still Native.

Native Americans are immigrants.. immigrants from russia millions of years ago. Like he said. We are all immigrants if you go back far enough

and now that the country has been built, it needs to stop. i am willing to get another month of being called a racist, but responding to this post is worth it. Yes, immigrants built this country. chinese, italians, and irish workers, along with many other european races worked hard to create our formidable infrastructure and supplied most of the labor force in the last 200 years. let me point out one thing. they WERE NOT sending the american dollars they earned home to their country the way mexicans are today. they learned the language, sent their children to school, and became proud capitalists. they opened stores, restaurants, and contributed many positive cultural traditions to american society. THEY WERE NOT demanding school be taught in their native languages, they were not risking the lives of their children by refusing to pay for health insurance, and instead using emergency services for basic medical care, they were not insisting on free services, higher wages and lower living costs so they could work hard to improve their native country.
i live in the most concentrated illegal immigrant population in the US- southern california. and its becoming Tijuana. 8 bILLION dollars is sent to meico and other latin american countries per year and has it improved those countries economies? hell no, it hasnt.
i agree, the average american (read californian)needs to mow their own fucking lawn, clean their own house, and not use the labor. society has taken a turn twards the lazy, and there are groups out there, with people like myself, trying to reverse this trend. and before you call them, or me, nazis, just make sure you know a little bit about me first.
"The biggest effort to date to assess how immigration has affected America as a whole was a mammoth study carried out for Congress by the National Academy of Sciences in 1997. It concluded that immigration provided a net benefit to the American economy of around $10 billion, quite a modest sum when set against an $8 trillion economy. Pro-immigration experts say that the NAS study, which looked mainly at the difference between the wages paid to immigrants and the value of the goods and services they produced, missed the full benefits of importing people with different skills and the gains from a broader range of products and services—not to mention the many businesses started by immigrants. This is probably true, but hard to pin down."

"But the methodology is flawed: the children who count as part of the costs of immigration when they are young are treated as “natives” when they begin to pay taxes. If their taxes were counted as benefits, then immigrant families would usually be seen to contribute more than they take from the state. A study by Ronald Lee at the University of California at Berkeley calculated that taxpayers make a cumulative profit of $80,000 from each new (legal) immigrant over his lifetime."
-The Economist.

Just a little point to make for those who believe the US is not strict enough/restrictive enough on immigration. Where did your ancestors come from? Would they have been allowed "in" under the standards you want to see enforced?

Please note - these are rhetorical questions. Unless you're a 100% native american (or whatever the politically correct term is today) the questions are already answered. :)

Just a little point to make for those who believe the US is not strict enough/restrictive enough on immigration. Where did your ancestors come from? Would they have been allowed "in" under the standards you want to see enforced?

Please note - these are rhetorical questions. Unless you're a 100% native american (or whatever the politically correct term is today) the questions are already answered. :)
again, those standards were in effect in a time when the country was developing. read my first post. times and population change, and so do the laws of this land. we are NOT restrictive at all on immigration, we have a 2300 mile open border.

"The biggest effort to date to assess how immigration has affected America as a whole was a mammoth study carried out for Congress by the National Academy of Sciences in 1997. It concluded that immigration provided a net benefit to the American economy of around $10 billion, quite a modest sum when set against an $8 trillion economy. Pro-immigration experts say that the NAS study, which looked mainly at the difference between the wages paid to immigrants and the value of the goods and services they produced, missed the full benefits of importing people with different skills and the gains from a broader range of products and services—not to mention the many businesses started by immigrants. This is probably true, but hard to pin down."

"But the methodology is flawed: the children who count as part of the costs of immigration when they are young are treated as “natives” when they begin to pay taxes. If their taxes were counted as benefits, then immigrant families would usually be seen to contribute more than they take from the state. A study by Ronald Lee at the University of California at Berkeley calculated that taxpayers make a cumulative profit of $80,000 from each new (legal) immigrant over his lifetime."
-The Economist.
nice quoting from the extreme right there. when this article speaks about importing people with different skills and wider range of products and serviuces......exactly WHAT are those skills? they are not impressive ones. here in southern california. the majority of immigrant workers are employed in the service industry. let me spell out those duties for you- housecleaner, gardener, bussing/wait staff,day labor, non skilled construction,the list goes on. 20 years ago, these were jobs that americans prided in doing themselves. in parts of new england- teen agers still mow lawns for pocket money.
and if tax payers are making money off of illegals- then you explain why 4 emergency rooms at major hospitals have closed their doors in the past year , here in Los Angeles, due to the financial burden of treating illegals. also tell me why the schools are footing huge bills for "eglish as a second language" instruction, because special interest groups have lobbied against english immersion education? explain why cities with a higher illegal population have higher crime rates, worse school rankings, and less home ownership than ones with out?

I willalso let you know that illegals obtain work with falsified documents, usually using the social security number of a deceased person. they claim 9 (the maximum) dependents on the w-2 forms, and NEVER pay a tax bill. what is taken out of their checks in taxes goes to the federal government. states never see a penny of it. so yes, that is why the federal government will not close the borders, its beneficial to them.

Also, count in the cost of everytime an illegal is jailed, we pay for that too, and support his family throught the welfare system.

again, those standards were in effect in a time when the country was developing. read my first post. times and population change, and so do the laws of this land. we are NOT restrictive at all on immigration, we have a 2300 mile open border.The country was developing? How did the Sioux, Cree, Cherokee, Seminole, Apache, "fill in the blank" feel about that? Our open border does not equal open immigration. Visiting is permitted - permanent residence is another question entirely. Oh, and check the news today. By 2008 you will have to have a passport to get in to the US (including getting back in to the US) from Canada, Mexico, and the few other places from which you can currently enter the US without a passport.

The country was developing? How did the Sioux, Cree, Cherokee, Seminole, Apache, "fill in the blank" feel about that? Our open border does not equal open immigration. Visiting is permitted - permanent residence is another question entirely. Oh, and check the news today. By 2008 you will have to have a passport to get in to the US (including getting back in to the US) from Canada, Mexico, and the few other places from which you can currently enter the US without a passport.
what?? WHAT???? you mean all the people crossing illegaly on the southern border GO HOME AFTER A WEEKS VACATION IN SANTA ANA??? are you insane?
and your indian comment. they did not have an organized society. tribes lived separatley. and they should have killed us all, which they could have. also- they came over the bering strait land bridge. when there was a few thousand people per state- this was an open issue. wars were fought and won. and, in "the indian days" the borders were not even defined to the south, or the north for that matter. they are now, and there are people here that need to go home.

what?? WHAT???? you mean all the people crossing illegaly on the southern border GO HOME AFTER A WEEKS VACATION IN SANTA ANA??? are you insane?
and your indian comment. they did not have an organized society. tribes lived separatley. and they should have killed us all, which they could have. also- they came over the bering strait land bridge. when there was a few thousand people per state- this was an open issue. wars were fought and won. and, in "the indian days" the borders were not even defined to the south, or the north for that matter. they are now, and there are people here that need to go home.Why don't you join them?

Why don't you join them?
nice comeback. i , at this very moment, just lit a candle and wept in the corner of my office. and if i was to go home- it would be to oklahoma. i can tell you exactly what my cherokee ancestors should have done.