NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm currently writing a Science Fiction novel and I could use your input.

This is the story.

A large group of Scientists, Philosophers, Politicians, Soldiers and just normal people decide they want something more for themeselves and their families.

They want to belong to a bigger picture, take destiny into their own hands.

They decide to secretly develop technologies that will allow humanity to explore the stars, Artifical Intelligence, Molecular Manufacturing, Genetic Engineering, Nano Technology, Propulsion Methods, etc. They excel in the rapid development and deployment of theoretical technologies.

They do this by assuming a Military Command Structure, with Military Philosophies, Honor and Glory, The Strong Defend the Weak, Strong Work Ethic, All for the Common Good, that sort of thing. By eliminating beaucracy, centralizing research and coordinating on a scale never thought possible.

They decide to build three underground bases, larger then anything mankind has ever attempted. In each of these bases, they build a starship of incredible power. One in the Sierra Desert, one in Siberia, one in the mountains of South America.

While they are doing this, they decide to build weapons to defend themselves incase they are attacked. They develop tanks, aircraft, neural interfaces, etc.

The plan is, once they launch from Earth, they explore the Galaxy, most are in Hibernation, hopeful colonists waiting for the ships to Terraform or discover habitable planets. They will found a new human civilization among the stars using lessons learned on Earth. A Socialist Democracy if you will.

Freedom, Philosophy, Democracy, Justice, Science, Exploration and Excellence are the central tenants of this newly formed Nation.

The modern world, today's world. Dosen't have a clue.

Suddenly, there is a leak, something is discovered.

Suddenly all the large nations of the world discover the best of the best humanity has to offer has founded a illegal militaristic government entity that has extremely powerful technologies and weapons available to them but they say they have no intentions of using them for anything but defense and only want to leave the planet when construction of the starships are complete.

What would happen?

At the most, a standoff, with MAD threatened by both sides.

At the most, a standoff, with MAD threatened by both sides.

Quite possible. What do you think the world reaction would be like? How would European or American entities view this? As high treason? Just let them go? Try to negotiate an exchange for the new technologies? Try to discredit them?

Would the advanced society not share their technology?

Good, how many pages do you have at the moment?

A Cold war would ensue. With many many attempts to acquire the more advanced technologies.

Though personally I question just how this group would manage to acquire that much in resources, technology etc... without having been made known to the public in its infancy. You can't hide material movements that large. Nor can you hide scientific research of that magnitude because of the pure cash in time and facilities needed to get it done.

Though personally I question just how this group would manage to acquire that much in resources, technology etc... without having been made known to the public in its infancy. You can't hide material movements that large. Nor can you hide scientific research of that magnitude because of the pure cash in time and facilities needed to get it done.

The Soviets did a very good job of covering up their WMD programs. They were buying huge quantitites of supplies and no one really discovered the truth about the program until well after the Cold War.

Also, the Rajneeshes were able to buy plague and other bacteria without raising any suspicions, so I imagine it would be very easy if they were careful.

A Cold war would ensue. With many many attempts to acquire the more advanced technologies.

Though personally I question just how this group would manage to acquire that much in resources, technology etc... without having been made known to the public in its infancy. You can't hide material movements that large. Nor can you hide scientific research of that magnitude because of the pure cash in time and facilities needed to get it done.

Well, the idea is that they become self sufficent. At first a loose group of scientists cooperating together, then, as things progress the organization gets larger. They become self sufficent, an alliance of businesses operate as a front for mining operations, etc. When they need metal, they mine. When they need food, they grow, the food operations feeds the miners and the miners support heavy industry.

Micro-isolated-socialist economics.

They would not be willing to share the technologies because of how dangerous they are. I.E. to cure cancer, they use self replicating nano-robotics.

Good, how many pages do you have at the moment?

Maybe seven or eight chapters worth of material, but I'm really working on story development right now. Figuring out where I want to take it.

I can create an entirely new universe in which to story tell from.

Basically going from modern times to a galactic empire, following the three ships as they launch from Earth, explore the galaxy, terraform and colonize, eventually setting up self sufficent industry operations, etc.

Think Homeworld from the view of the Soldiers, Politicians and Military Leaders on the mothership.

I do have some work online:

It's about a year old, since then I've decided to do a complete rewrite. It seems I work best in the summer.

http://www.nekoware.com/fiction/
http://www.deranged.net/~jetman877/TOTT/TOTT.htm

The Soviets did a very good job of covering up their WMD programs. They were buying huge quantitites of supplies and no one really discovered the truth about the program until well after the Cold War.

Also, the Rajneeshes were able to buy plague and other bacteria without raising any suspicions, so I imagine it would be very easy if they were careful.

Governments are not private entities. The amount of stuff being talked about here is not possible for private individuals, even large amounts of them, to pull of in secret without having the Waltons, the DuPonts, the Rothschilds, the McDonalds and Bill Gates as the personal financers.

Especially not seeing as doing any sort of under-ground construction needs a huge amount of earth moving equipment and disposal. You need to manage to keep the construction companies and the workers themselves quiet. You need to keep the scientists and their aides quiet. You need to keep the research institution quiet. You need to bribe hundreds of officials to let you dig up their country without proper permits and you need to manage to hide all of this construction from the eyes in the sky.

But then it is fiction. It doesn't need to be possible for it to be decent.

Well, the idea is that they become self sufficent. At first a loose group of scientists cooperating together, then, as things progress the organization gets larger. They become self sufficent, an alliance of businesses operate as a front for mining operations, etc. When they need metal, they mine. When they need food, they grow, the food operations feeds the miners and the miners support heavy industry.

Micro-isolated-socialist economics.

I would suggest setting it up on the early time scale of centuries of caledenstine movements orchastrated through some sort of secret society network.

They would not be willing to share the technologies because of how dangerous they are. I.E. to cure cancer, they use self replicating nano-robotics.

The US didn't like sharing technology with the USSR. Hence why they spied on us, quite succesfully.

It seems like the side of the bad guy in a James Bond film. :)

Governments are not private entities. The amount of stuff being talked about here is not possible for private individuals, even large amounts of them, to pull of in secret without having the Waltons, the DuPonts, the Rothschilds, the McDonalds and Bill Gates as the personal financers.

Especially not seeing as doing any sort of under-ground construction needs a huge amount of earth moving equipment and disposal. You need to manage to keep the construction companies and the workers themselves quiet. You need to keep the scientists and their aides quiet. You need to keep the research institution quiet. You need to bribe hundreds of officials to let you dig up their country without proper permits and you need to manage to hide all of this construction from the eyes in the sky.

But then it is fiction. It doesn't need to be possible for it to be decent.

That's the best part, trying to come up with a reasonable way to pull it off! It's almost like doing it in real life. If you have any ideas, feel free to throw them into the fire. Right now I just have generalizations and half baked concepts. Besides, I think it's alot more interesting to descibe how they would pull something like this off then "There was an intergalactic empire, and in this empire lived a boy with a destiny..."

Instead, I'm going for... "One day, Aidan sat idly in his local coffee house watching his drink evaporate while the friends from his dorm dronned on about expansionism and the third gulf war in a table across from him.

Thats when he decided to do it. Even if it ruined his credibility, his future... he would, he must, try to break the cycle..."

It seems like the side of the bad guy in a James Bond film. :)

Lol! Never thought about it before.

I've always gone for a Founding Fathers kind of approach.

An interpretation of religion, government, economics and science. As they explore the galaxy, away from Earth, they learn about themselves and what truly makes a human, human.

What happens to them depends partly on where they're based. If they're in Siberia then they do a deal with the corrupt Russian government who promise to leave them alone in exchange for lots of cash. If they're in the US the government would try to shut them down and, if they're serious about only using their stuff in space, they wouldn't really fight back. So the government would have all the technology. You could possibly have the Supreme Court rule that any seizures of property were illegal, which would allow them to carry on. I don't think that there would be a war of any sort, really, even a Cold one, but you could engineer it if you wanted. It's your book, after all.

As they have three big bases in different countries I'd say that what would actually happen is that there would be lots of legal arguments over the tracing of funds through jurisdictions, and over which government was allowed to do what to whom. That wouldn't make a great book though. You'd have to make the organisation quite defensive-minded and ready to use force to stand up for itself. Then you would get an interesting confrontation. After all, what good is the law when those breaching it are better-armed than the enforcers?


Btw, they can't both centralise and eliminate bureaucracy at the same time. Centralisation requires bureaucracy by definition. You could minimise it, I guess. All in all I thnk that they shouldn't be so perfect. Everyone and everything has some flaws. A perfect system is not attainable, even by the best of the best.

Actually that's kind of the idea, they try to be perfect but in the end they realize they are not. They also realize (about 1,000 too late) that leaving Earth was just running away from their problems.

Yes, I do believe they would use force to protect themselves.

I would love to do a massive battle with the United States and Nato. I mean, could you imagine if they just thought it was some terrorist cell or cult?

They send in a 117 with a few laser guided bunker busters, suddenly there are 30+ super sonic fighters that come out of no where with a target lock.

Of course, since most of the Soldiers are ex military, the biggest conflict would be actually getting them to pull the trigger.

Brother fighting borther, etc.

However, the technologies I've already discussed are alot closer to real world usage then most people think. For example, the Army has shot down artillery shells in mid air with lasers before.

Really I'm just turning the clock ahead a bit, while the rest of the world plays the regular "who needs science, we have weapons/money!" grab ass they normally do. ;)

Despite what it may sound like, they are NOT PERFECT and NOT ALL POWERFUL.

Anyone else?

what might happen would be where everyone suddenly wants to be a part of the program, many country's urge them to give their government the new knowledge. the people in power start to become greedy and the entire plan is ruined, by taking people's money and some of the countries with the new powers break out into war and i'm not shure what else.

Suddenly all the large nations of the world discover the best of the best humanity has to offer has founded a illegal militaristic government entity that has extremely powerful technologies and weapons available to them but they say they have no intentions of using them for anything but defense and only want to leave the planet when construction of the starships are complete.

What would happen?

Depends on the perceptions of the worlds governments of just how much more powerful their weaponry is.

If not overwhelmingly so, an immediate offensive is likely to try to overwhelm the newly discovered nation through swarming the under with superior numbers... securing the technology for themselves and discouraging other people from thinking that if they don't like the way things are going they can just run off and form THEIR own little secret armed nations pursuing their own ideological goals. Established governments tend to frown on that sort of thing.

If their military advantage is perceived to be overwhelming, immediate commencement of espionage (Well, ok, this would still happen in the first case too) to attempt to blunt that advantage... followed, if successful, by the previously mentioned offensive once it was thought that advantage was sufficiently reduced.

IMO anyway. I think the second scenario would make more interesting reading.

Well the confrontation is only the first part of the book, they only need to hold off for so long untill they are ready to launch. Keep that in mind.

I suggest you take a look at Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", since this seems to be a similar attitude.
your Idealists would have to fight, eventually-one way or another. If their tech-superiority is too low, it's immediately, and if it's overwhelming, it's merely a matter of time before they're attacked. Either way, expect serious covert efforts to suborn members of the conspiracy by multiple governments.
Government is, after all, about the excercise of force. Someone (anyone) coming up with a means to leave the morons behind is going to meet resistance-because it is denying the most megalomaniacal portion of any given population the absolute power they crave.
My own suggestion would be to leave uncontrolled self-replicators behind as a "Parting Gift" to the world-thus preventing someone from mounting a crash programme to come chase down the emigrants.

Sounds a bit like the story of Freelancer.

Sounds a bit like the story of Freelancer.

How so? I'm not familar with freelancer.

Antartica would be a good place for a location, nobodys there to look for it. Parts of Austrailia and Africa would be good, Where would the S. American one be, the Amazon? They could find traces of it deforesting the jungle, and lead them to the S. American one

Well the confrontation is only the first part of the book, they only need to hold off for so long untill they are ready to launch. Keep that in mind.
will this tech-nation have a lot of money, like to afford a few french nuclear subs?

That's the best part, trying to come up with a reasonable way to pull it off! It's almost like doing it in real life. If you have any ideas, feel free to throw them into the fire. Right now I just have generalizations and half baked concepts. Besides, I think it's alot more interesting to descibe how they would pull something like this off then "There was an intergalactic empire, and in this empire lived a boy with a destiny..."

While that’s true. And it something I kick around often enough when I think about fiction I might like to write. But I also remember that it took Asimov several hundred books and short stories to pull it off. Write the story you want to write and worry about the "how did it happen" for when you've figured out how and you have developed a story that takes place during that how.

How so? I'm not familar with freelancer.

Freelancer/Starlancer storyline features rebellious colonies that become more powerful than Earth. But then it also sounds a bit like Asimov's Universe during the Robot and Spacer novels. The Spacer colonies number 50 planets with a population less than a billion while Earth weighs in at 10 some billion. However the Spacers happen to have the upper hand on technology by several fold. Not to mention genetic engineering and selective breeding creating lifetimes that span the centuries. Basically the best and brightest leave Earth and then over time become Earth's master.

It depends on how big the leak was. If it was contained by various governments, I could imagine a hit squad of Seals, Spetznatz and SAS going in to wipe out the leaders. That way the world powers would be able to maintain the monopoly of power over the 3rd world. Each would split up the members of the society and in turn start a new space race.

If it was large enough, then perhaps a huge media campaign would be launched against these people would be started by the world governments to ostrasize your people. A side bar would be an escaped person fighting to regain their status as benefactors to humanity.

I seem quite cynical, no? I just think that the major Colonial (and ex-colonial) powers would see this as an opportunity for newer and more complete power.

LOL how do we know this isn't the true story of Area 51?

Best of luck!!!

Because I doubt people would build their super secret base in the middle of a desert... oh crap.

Heh, great commentary guys, I'm calling it a night, but you've done more then enough to help me, thanks.

BTW I like it, I don't have an income so I probably would not buy it, but I would definitely try and get my hands on it as soon as I get another income

Hmmm some nice fishhook-dagger twisting - blade grinding scenarios I think you could throw in.


1. Every man has his own agenda. In this super-group you have, create some major characters that have differing agendas. E.G. (a)The greedy merchant who was going to sell out right at the end. (b)The staunch military man who was going to stay on earth with his select few and with all the technological advances and then bring peace to the world. (c) The snivveling political who fears the other nations and wants to leave earth so bad he demands/pushes for war.


2. Be like Battletech, or to be more specific utilize a key thing I loved about BattleTech: Its dating of the stories. So, the main governments have discovered your idealists, eh? Well begin the book with each chapter just being days or even hours after the last chapter. Have each chapter filled with suspense and thrill on whether nuclear war, or any war will happen. Then in the meat of the book begin to jump weeks, months, and even years, as the governments hold off. The major governments begin to catch up with the Idealists (technologically wise). Finally the Idealists (have had enough)/(are ready to go). At this point in time go back to dating each chapter within days or hours of each other. These last chapters should be filled with action as the Idealists attempt to leave earth while under attack.

3. Look to Asimov. And to be more specific: The Second Foundation. The First foundation was weak compared to the Second. Well in your book, have the Ideallists be super powerful. A minor war breaks out between the Idealists and major governments, but it ends with the major governments defeated and subjugated. Now the Idealists have a whole world ready to supply them for their plans. Now just sprinkle freedom fighters for the world governments, lone Spec Op squads roaming over the earth, and an omnipotent-omniscient Idealist government.

Most likly, the governments would respond with an imediate special forces raid before the Idealists know they've been discovered. National governments would likely not understand what the Idealists are initaily and just belive it is an advanced terrorist cell or something of the like.

Also, this society does not neccesary have to be makeing large materials shipments. They would likely have been around for decades, building their resources gradualy, and probably seting up front companies and the like. These companies could also be used to leak some of the less dangerous inventions into the general public.

As a note for the technical side, I would just like to point out that walking tanks in the Metal-Gear/Gundam/Battle-tech sense would not be feasable because they would be too easy of targets and cost too much for the effectiveness you would be able to gain from them. RPG equiped infantry would absoluely shred them. However, individual powered armor (maximum of about 10 feet tall) as an urban infantry support weapon would be proper use of the concept IMO. It just bothers me when people don't consider the tactical consiquences of "cool" ideas.

i agree, i find it very unplausable to keep something that large, using that much resources, and that much money hidden from both governments and corporations.

prolly doesnt fit with your suggestion, but maybe look more into a smaller scale thing, but maybe with much higher tech-levels, and you could do(as a plot device) a lot with nanotech and bio-engeneered stuff.
i mean really, whats cooler then buildings that 'grow'. you could even have the nanotech excavate the underground areas, and use the minerals/etc as raw materials too build stuff.

granted i dont really know anything about the actualities of nanotech, but depending on how you use it, could almost be 'magic-like' or something.

good luck with it

3. Look to Asimov. And to be more specific: The Second Foundation. The First foundation was weak compared to the Second. Well in your book, have the Ideallists be super powerful. A minor war breaks out between the Idealists and major governments, but it ends with the major governments defeated and subjugated. Now the Idealists have a whole world ready to supply them for their plans. Now just sprinkle freedom fighters for the world governments, lone Spec Op squads roaming over the earth, and an omnipotent-omniscient Idealist government.

Have you read the entirety of the Foundation Series? If not, ahem, spoilers: The 1st Foundation reaches the point at which it could, and intended to, wipe out the 2nd Foundation but the good Robot has to play his little game of pretending Humanity is actually making a choice about its future concerning, um, that weird planet, Gia I believe.

If they were such a nice people, they would just share their technology with the rest of the world, then there would be no reason to disprove them, or to go against them militarily.

Offcourse, if they weren't that nice...

Well... look at it this way. For the last few hundred years human technology has made unparalleled advancements, unfortunately, these advanced were fueled by military conquest and capitalist competition (not nessacarily a bad thing, but the general opinion is that it would be unwise to just hand out the technology to government who have done nothing but kicked each other's asses throughout history.)

I mean, look at 9/11, thousands die and do you know what I hear from the majority of my friends?

"Just nuke them."

Yeah, give those people molecular manufacturing... HAHAHHA. ;)

Mmmm... I can't wait to start up again. :)

Here's what I'd think could happen.

The nations of the world will be split into two camps. One camp will try to co-operate with the new nation, maybe even hope to piggyback on their ideas in exchange for resources and protection.

The other camp will want all that technology to themselves, and go on the attack.

The results are up to you, but they would be devastating.

I do have some insights into other parts of your story as well.

-The people that come to this new country. A higher calling is ok, but I think there has to be more to it than that. Try to put in some other circumstances that would encourage people to go to this new nation. For example, environmental problems while they hold arable land, population problems, offering jobs while the world is in another depression, etc. Afterwards, then make your citizens loyal to whatever cause they have.

-Weapons of Mass Destruction. They have to be neutralized one way or another. Make a missile defense that actually WORKS! Perhaps some nanotechnology that can take care of biological and chemical warfare. Have this new nation small, yet powerful enough to hold the world at bay if they have to.

-Give them a happy ending. Let them take off and find a new planet... even if it involves your nation shooting their way through half the world to make sure their 'mission' doesn't get tampered with...

New Question: How would you, the average joe, react?

How would your family/friends react?

Since they are the best and the brightest, it would not be implausable that they have limited control of the world's nuclear arsenal, like, say, just enough to prevent a launch. The best missile deffence to to prevent the missile from being launched.

I, personaly, would get a rifle and ammuntion in order to fight back against these maniacs(as the media would undoubtably lable them) and their weird technology in case they came near my home. I would also try to organize a local millitia so that we could more effectively repel them.

Behavioral Analasy of the "Idealists": These people would likly accect an "ends justify the means" philosophy if forced into open conflict with the world's millitary. This means that they would not be too oposed to slaghtering the localized resistance like I would organize, and would use their tech to their best advantage, offencively once they belive that they will not ever be left alone by the government.

News Flash: A extremist group calling themselves "Steel Fish" has attacked a Terran Nation diplomatic envoy today... ;)

I sugest using a system simiar to Cruz did in The Ayes of Texas for hiding the tech, make the technicans part of the MI complex and with the consent of a few members in the governments hide the tech alongside the actual government funded projects and use beaucratic obliviousness to conceal it. This would make the governments' claims to the tech stronger (they helped pay to develop it!!) and raise the conflict a notch. OF course the explorers would scupulously maintain that all the funding that paid for the actual tech was private, but . . ..

As for the governments reaction, I would go with arrest warrents and attempts to treat this as a legal proplem moving to trade embargos until an uneasy standoff developed between the governments and the explorers, with intially individual governements attempting to consolidate all the tech for themselves but gradually forming coalitions until there is one mostly unified caolition. Have some smaller, less developed countries opt to ignore the embargos and cladestinely trade with the explorers and put a little bit in about the pressure the major governments use to close most of this trade down.

Maybe a major government invasion or not, up to you really.

News Flash: A extremist group calling themselves "Steel Fish" has attacked a Terran Nation diplomatic envoy today... ;)That would definately be me.

That would definately be me.

Pfft, I'm half tempted to write that in. Perhaps you could be an evil conservative republican senator calling for military action? :)