NationStates Jolt Archive


What would you ask a US veteran?

Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 14:55
If I don't have an answer for you, one of two things is true:

1. I'll find the answer for you, or...

2. Your question is stupid! :D
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 14:57
Did you feel like a loser when you returned from Vietnam?
Patra Caesar
04-04-2005, 14:57
What do you think is the biggest change that has occurred in the military in the past fifty years?
Pure Metal
04-04-2005, 15:01
was Vietnam worth it?

how about Iraq? (yeah i know you didn't serve there, but i feel controversial ;) )
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:04
The First Gulf War was worth it for me.
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:05
How did it feel killing those screaming kids, and pulling out their intestines, in Vietnam?
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:06
How did it feel killing those screaming kids, and pulling out their intestines, in Vietnam?

In Iraq, I used a boat hook :rolleyes:
Kanabia
04-04-2005, 15:07
How did it feel killing those screaming kids, and pulling out their intestines, in Vietnam?

Whoa, that's a little over the top isn't it? :(
Patriotic Finland
04-04-2005, 15:07
Do you smell victory?

:D
Markreich
04-04-2005, 15:07
Do you get tired of the "peace at any price" people calling you things to make themselves feel better?
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:07
No question here, Sir.

Just a Hooah!

(PFC, USA, Active Duty)
(Republic of Korea)
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:09
Ein Deutscher']Did you feel like a loser when you returned from Vietnam?
Not at all. I went for my own reasons and consider those reasons to still be valid.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:09
What do you think is the biggest change that has occurred in the military in the past fifty years?
The All Volunteer Force.
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:10
Whoa, that's a little over the top isn't it? :(


Perhaps the whole intestine thing, but look what happened in Vietnam. US troops murdured thousands of innocent Vietnamese for no reason at all! It can only be assumed that the same thing is happening in Iraq.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:11
was Vietnam worth it?
It was not worth all the death and destruction. But then again, most wars aren't.

how about Iraq? (yeah i know you didn't serve there, but i feel controversial ;) )
That remains to be seen.
Patra Caesar
04-04-2005, 15:11
I am disappointed that some people act as if Eutrusca caused the war himself and personally committed all of the atrocities of the war himself.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:12
Perhaps the whole intestine thing, but look what happened in Vietnam. US troops murdured thousands of innocent Vietnamese for no reason at all! It can only be assumed that the same thing is happening in Iraq.

1. Prove that thousands of "innocent" Vietnamese were "murdered".
2. Prove that "the same thing is happenning in Iraq". You can't make the assumption.
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:12
Perhaps the whole intestine thing, but look what happened in Vietnam. US troops murdured thousands of innocent Vietnamese for no reason at all! It can only be assumed that the same thing is happening in Iraq.

"Assumption is the mother of all grave errors."

By assuming that, you'd assume that we're the same people, in the same era, with the same personal views....

*cue twilight zone theme*
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:14
Do you get tired of the "peace at any price" people calling you things to make themselves feel better?
Surprisingly there are very few of those anymore, particularly where I live. I wear a cap with the 173rd Ariborne Brigade (Separate) patch on it and quite often get a very polite "thank you" from total strangers.
Kanabia
04-04-2005, 15:14
Perhaps the whole intestine thing, but look what happened in Vietnam. US troops murdured thousands of innocent Vietnamese for no reason at all! It can only be assumed that the same thing is happening in Iraq.

I won't comment or share my opinions...

I don't think turning this thread into a critique of American methods in Vietnam and elsewhere is what Eutrusca had in mind when he started the thread.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:14
No question here, Sir.

Just a Hooah!

(PFC, USA, Active Duty)
(Republic of Korea)
Carry on, soldier, and God bless! :)
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:15
1. Prove that thousands of "innocent" Vietnamese were "murdered".
2. Prove that "the same thing is happenning in Iraq". You can't make the assumption.


Here, my proof. (http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/5124.html)

Here, also. (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6952)
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:16
I won't comment or share my opinions...

I don't think turning this thread into a critique of American methods in Vietnam and elsewhere is what Eutrusca had in mind when he started the thread.
It's a big invitation to post such questions if someone makes it a habbit to use his military participation to his advantage. In some cases it might fire back :)
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 15:17
No question here, Sir.

Just a Hooah!

(PFC, USA, Active Duty)
(Republic of Korea)

Hey soldier, where are you in Korea? I finished EOBC last September and a large majority of my class went to Korea
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:18
Here, my proof. (http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/5124.html)

Here, also. (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6952)

Proof, to me, requires a peer reviewed study. I need the study, and the peer reviews.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:18
Ein Deutscher']It's a big invitation to post such questions if someone makes it a habbit to use his military participation to his advantage. In some cases it might fire back :)
Fire away, oh evil one. Better than you have tried and most are now pushing up daisys somewhere in Southeast Asia. :)
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:19
"Assumption is the mother of all grave errors."

By assuming that, you'd assume that we're the same people, in the same era, with the same personal views....

*cue twilight zone theme*

Do you have any proof that the American war mentaility has changed from Vietnam to Iraq? I wached many people on TV telling that they were "gunna sho those A-rabs about democracy" and "Gee, I'm gunna go kill some sand niggers".
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:22
Here, my proof. (http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/5124.html)

Here, also. (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6952)

This is a thread for questioning, YOU ask the questions....

Honestly, you realize you are indirectly insulting the man who started this post with this stupid babble. If you don't have something construction, production and personally developing to stay, then don't bring down the rest of us.

Sir, how does it feel to know that some people -still- hate the military, sir?
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:22
Do you have any proof that the American war mentaility has changed from Vietnam to Iraq? I wached many people on TV telling that they were "gunna sho those A-rabs about democracy" and "Gee, I'm gunna go kill some sand niggers".
Totally specious.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:22
Do you have any proof that the American war mentaility has changed from Vietnam to Iraq? I wached many people on TV telling that they were "gunna sho those A-rabs about democracy" and "Gee, I'm gunna go kill some sand niggers".
You are the one who first made the assertion that the US is doing in Iraq exactly what you claim it did in Vietname.

The burden of proof is on you.

Please cite a peer reviewed study, or stop talking.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:23
Sir, how does it feel to know that some people -still- hate the military, sir?
That's almost a religion for some people. I've come to accept that. Plus, one of the reasons I was a soldier was to protect the right of people to practice their own religion, so ... ! :D
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:23
Do you have any proof that the American war mentaility has changed from Vietnam to Iraq? I wached many people on TV telling that they were "gunna sho those A-rabs about democracy" and "Gee, I'm gunna go kill some sand niggers".

"Sand niggers?" That's new to me.... Try watching more than one channel. "Propaganda at 10" is NOT a good source of news.... Now, please, get back to the topic.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:24
Do you have any proof that the American war mentaility has changed from Vietnam to Iraq? I wached many people on TV telling that they were "gunna sho those A-rabs about democracy" and "Gee, I'm gunna go kill some sand niggers".
You're absolutely right. The American war mind has not changed at all. I've seen various photos and even one video with US military personnel, showing their blatant contempt for the Arab civilians. The Americans are too arrogant and self-centered to understand that what they're doing is mostly wrong.
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:25
That's almost a religion for some people. I've come to accept that. Plus, one of the reasons I was a soldier was to protect the right of people to practice their own religion, so ... ! :D

The "Ironic Truth," as I call it, Sir. Defending peoples' right to protest our defending their rights.... God I love our Constitution! :p
Frangland
04-04-2005, 15:25
Perhaps the whole intestine thing, but look what happened in Vietnam. US troops murdured thousands of innocent Vietnamese for no reason at all! It can only be assumed that the same thing is happening in Iraq.

No it can't. Assumption is for dimwits.

Were you in either Vietnam or Iraq?

Just wondering...
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:27
Ein Deutscher']You're absolutely right. The American war mind has not changed at all. I've seen various photos and even one video with US military personnel, showing their blatant contempt for the Arab civilians. The Americans are too arrogant and self-centered to understand that what they're doing is mostly wrong.

Since when have we not acknowledged that we've done wrong?
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:29
Ein Deutscher']You're absolutely right. The American war mind has not changed at all. I've seen various photos and even one video with US military personnel, showing their blatant contempt for the Arab civilians. The Americans are too arrogant and self-centered to understand that what they're doing is mostly wrong.

Wow. One video.

I guess you didn't read my post from a friend over there who was helping rebuild schools, and enjoying hanging out with Iraqis who enjoyed having the Americans there.

I'm sure you'll never know how good American soldiers can be, because you're never going to Iraq, out of fear of discovering the truth.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 15:30
Ein Deutscher']You're absolutely right. The American war mind has not changed at all. I've seen various photos and even one video with US military personnel, showing their blatant contempt for the Arab civilians. The Americans are too arrogant and self-centered to understand that what they're doing is mostly wrong.

You've arrived at your opinion based solely on photos and one video. You sure don't need a lot of evidence to make up your mind... That being said, wanna by a bridge in New York, I'll sell it to you cheap? I'll send you exactlyone picture for you to make up your mind
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:30
Wow. One video.

I guess you didn't read my post from a friend over there who was helping rebuild schools, and enjoying hanging out with Iraqis who enjoyed having the Americans there.

I'm sure you'll never know how good American soldiers can be, because you're never going to Iraq, out of fear of discovering the truth.

"The truth is out there......."


...


"So why are you still inside?"

:D
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:30
Wow. One video.

I guess you didn't read my post from a friend over there who was helping rebuild schools, and enjoying hanging out with Iraqis who enjoyed having the Americans there.

I'm sure you'll never know how good American soldiers can be, because you're never going to Iraq, out of fear of discovering the truth.
Ditto.
Markreich
04-04-2005, 15:31
Wow. One video.

I guess you didn't read my post from a friend over there who was helping rebuild schools, and enjoying hanging out with Iraqis who enjoyed having the Americans there.

I'm sure you'll never know how good American soldiers can be, because you're never going to Iraq, out of fear of discovering the truth.

I saw a video once that PROVED that the average German WW2 general was tactically and strategically inferior to the Three Stooges. :D
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:32
The "Ironic Truth," as I call it, Sir. Defending peoples' right to protest our defending their rights.... God I love our Constitution! :p
As do I. It's not a perfect form of government by any stretch, but it's damned far ahead of whatever's in second place. :)
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 15:32
Ein Deutscher']Ditto.
If I recall correctly Whispering Legs served in Iraq.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:32
You've arrived at your opinion based solely on photos and one video. You sure don't need a lot of evidence to make up your mind... That being said, wanna by a bridge in New York, I'll sell it to you cheap? I'll send you exactlyone picture for you to make up your mind
The photos are numerous. Video footage is of course rather rare. Still it provides ample evidence and backing for my opinion. The fact that you're "patriotic Americans" is enough for me to not attempt to change your mind. It would be futile, since you've been brainwashed since your childhood.
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:33
Good the US has done!

The US military killed thousands of Iraqi sons and Fathers, and their "smart Weapons" have killed tens of thousands more civilians!

Yha, lots of good killing does.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:33
If I recall correctly Whispering Legs served in Iraq.
I've served in Timbuktu. Now I'm a war expert. Bow before me.
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 15:33
Ein Deutscher']You're absolutely right. The American war mind has not changed at all. I've seen various photos and even one video with US military personnel, showing their blatant contempt for the Arab civilians. The Americans are too arrogant and self-centered to understand that what they're doing is mostly wrong.


Whether or not what the US has undertaken in Iraq is right or wrong remains to be seen. Perhaps at this point in time the US' actions have yielded no solid evidence of gains. However, one must remember that prior to US action, many innocent civilians were killed at the whim of a dictator.

When remembering Vietnam, most people dont consider the reasons for US involvement and the actions taken by the US as seperate. This is a main reason for concern as the US reasons for involvment in Vietnam were noble, yet, the follow-through was quite political and as such has made many believe the US was wrong to intervene in Vietnam. There is much evidence to argue that US involvement in Vietnam was right but was not carried out properly.



-Neutered Sputniks
7th CMS, 7th Bomb Wing, USAF
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:33
Ein Deutscher']The photos are numerous. Video footage is of course rather rare. Still it provides ample evidence and backing for my opinion. The fact that you're "patriotic Americans" is enough for me to not attempt to change your mind. It would be futile, since you've been brainwashed since your childhood.

Excuse me?
Markreich
04-04-2005, 15:34
Good the US has done!

The US military killed thousands of Iraqi sons and Fathers, and their "smart Weapons" have killed tens of thousands more civilians!

Yha, lots of good killing does.

• 1983 April 18 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63
• 1983 September 23 Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, killing all 117 people on board
• 1983 October 23 Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut kills 241 U.S. Marines. 58 French troops from the multinational force are also killed in a separate attack.
• 1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacking
• 1985 October 7 - October 10 Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.
• 1985 EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.
• 1986 TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; 4 Americans, including an infant, are killed.
• 1986 April 6 the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill dictator Qaddafi.
• 1986 Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan.
• 1988 Pan Am Flight 103 bombing (Lockerbie). The worst act of terrorism against the United States prior to September 11, 2001.
• 1989 Avianca Flight 203 bombed over Colombia
• 1993 February 26 World Trade Center bombing kills 6 and injures over 1000 people
• 1993 Failed New York City landmark bomb plot
• 1993 Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters. Two died.
• 1994 December 11 A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines Flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman. Authorities found out that Ramzi Yousef planted the bomb to test it for his planned terrorist attack.
• 1995 Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop computer in a Manila, Philippines apartment by authorities after an apartment fire occurred in the apartment.
• 1995 Bombing of military compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
• 1996 June 25 Khobar Towers bombing
• 1997 A terrorist opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".
• 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.
• 1999 Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States-Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
• 1999 Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US and Israeli tourists in Jordan and pick up 28 suspects as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
• 2000 The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks
• 2000 October 12 USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors
• 2001 September 11, 2001 attacks kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.
• 2001 Paris embassy attack plot foiled
• 2001 Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb
• 2002 Singapore embassies attack plot foiled
• 2002 June 14 attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi
• 2002 Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl
• 2002 October 12 Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202
• 2003 Riyadh Compound Bombings - bombings of United States expat housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160. Al-Qaeda blamed
• 2003 Casablanca Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were "Western and Jewish". Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group
• 2003 Canal Hotel Bombing in Baghdad, Iraq kills 22 people including the top UN representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello
• 2003-2004 In response to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi insurgency in that country stage dozens of suicide bombings, kidnappings and several beheadings targeting Iraqi, Coalition and humanitarian targets. Attacks on some coalition forces may not be terrorist attacks under Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions which gives lawful combatant status to non-uniformed guerrillas resisting foreign occupation if they display arms openly. As neither the US or Iraq have signed this protocol it is not applicable to attacks on US forces.
• 2003 October 15 - A bomb is detonated by Palestinians against a US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip killing three Americans
• 2004 May 29 Al-Khobar massacres--Islamic terrorists kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
• 2004 December 6 Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.

How many times do you stand in the street and let the other guy hit you before you hit him back?
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:35
Ein Deutscher']You're absolutely right. The American war mind has not changed at all. I've seen various photos and even one video with US military personnel, showing their blatant contempt for the Arab civilians. The Americans are too arrogant and self-centered to understand that what they're doing is mostly wrong.
We all believe what we choose to believe. I strongly suspect that you began with the a priori assumption that Americans are "arrogant bastards" and all else followed from there.
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:36
Did the 19,616 civilians killed by America in Iraq ever hit you, in any way?

Source (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/)
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:36
There is much evidence to argue that US involvement in Vietnam was right but was not carried out properly.



-Neutered Sputniks
7th CMS, 7th Bomb Wing, USAF
The same applies to Iraq. The US intentions are noble (if they are the true intentions, which I highly doubt, seeing the various justifications for the war which have since been debunked). But their execution is lackluster. The violation of the UN Charter to start this war, sets a dangerous precedent, which will kick the US in the ass in decades to come.
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 15:36
Ein Deutscher']I've served in Timbuktu. Now I'm a war expert. Bow before me.
You specifically ask for his credentials and experience, and when he presents them you ignore it... whats your point?
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:37
Ein Deutscher']... you've been brainwashed since your childhood.
And you, of course, haven't. :rolleyes:
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:38
We all believe what we choose to believe. I strongly suspect that you began with the a priori assumption that Americans are "arrogant bastards" and all else followed from there.
It's not an assumption on my part. I base my opinion on observing Americans in Iraq, especially from footage that is not shown in the mainstream media and on these forums. A picture speaks more than a thousand words, is a nice saying here.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:38
Did the 19,616 civilians killed by America in Iraq ever hit you, in any way?

Source (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/)
And just where, pray tell, did you come by that statistic?
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:38
And you, of course, haven't. :rolleyes:


It's true, there are accualy a few objective people out there.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:38
Ein Deutscher']I've served in Timbuktu. Now I'm a war expert. Bow before me.

I've been to Iraq. Have you?
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:39
And you, of course, haven't. :rolleyes:
I haven't, since I'm not American :p
Damaica
04-04-2005, 15:39
Sir, I'm sorry, but I'm too tired to fight off the hordes of arrogance. Take care Sir, you've -earned- your rights.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:39
I've been to Iraq. Have you?
Yes. Now try to prove me wrong :p
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:40
How many times do you stand in the street and let the other guy hit you before you hit him back?
No one has more than two cheeks.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 15:40
Ein Deutscher']It's not an assumption on my part. I base my opinion on observing Americans in Iraq, especially from footage that is not shown in the mainstream media and on these forums. A picture speaks more than a thousand words, is a nice saying here.

Read left wing propaganda (footage not shown in the mainstream media). Everybody has an agenda, and you fell into it.
Markreich
04-04-2005, 15:42
Ein Deutscher']I haven't, since I'm not American :p

Why should that stop you?
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:43
Read left wing propaganda (footage not shown in the mainstream media). Everybody has an agenda, and you fell into it.
Actually, if I remember correctly, one specific video about US soldiers abusing and making jokes with an Iraqi corpse, was shown on BBC.

Found a link too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4328615.stm
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 15:43
Ein Deutscher']The same applies to Iraq. The US intentions are noble (if they are the true intentions, which I highly doubt, seeing the various justifications for the war which have since been debunked). But their execution is lackluster. The violation of the UN Charter to start this war, sets a dangerous precedent, which will kick the US in the ass in decades to come.


And this may very well be, but who are we, at this point in time, to determine the value of the US-led removal of Saddam?

If oil was the goal, why was legislation being pushed to open the Alaskan refuge to drilling - starting before the war in Iraq? At the current rate the US is spending money in Iraq, it will take many decades to 'break even.'


Suppose, just for a moment, that Bush believed that Saddam was enough of a threat to the US that he'd push for evidence to prove this - even if there were none. And just suppose that Saddam really WAS a threat to the US via continued support of terrorist organizations? Would this not validate the US ousting Saddam - regardless of the story given the US people?
Stroudiztan
04-04-2005, 15:44
Were you in the shit?

/Rushmore
The South Islands
04-04-2005, 15:44
Why should that stop you?


He porbably prefers not to die, as the US troops there dont really have a good record of protecting people in the "Green Zone". See, Suicide Bomb.
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 15:45
Ein Deutscher']It's not an assumption on my part. I base my opinion on observing Americans in Iraq, especially from footage that is not shown in the mainstream media and on these forums. A picture speaks more than a thousand words, is a nice saying here.
I've seen more than anyone's share of Al Jazeera and Jihad promo videos... what do the pictures prove? That war is a terrible thing, mistakes have been made and there indeed are hicks in US army. But good is coming out of American efforts in Iraq, and Iraqi people, especially Kurds and Shiites, are confident in the country's revival. The Sunnis are coming around too.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:45
Ein Deutscher']It's not an assumption on my part. I base my opinion on observing Americans in Iraq, especially from footage that is not shown in the mainstream media and on these forums. A picture speaks more than a thousand words, is a nice saying here.
Post some.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:46
Post some.
Most are unsuitable for these forums, sorry. But the link I gave is a good start.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4328615.stm
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:47
I've seen more than anyone's share of Al Jazeera and Jihad promo videos... what do the pictures prove? That war is a terrible thing, mistakes have been made and there indeed are hicks in US army. But good is coming out of American efforts in Iraq, and Iraqi people, especially Kurds and Shiites, are confident in the country's revival. The Sunnis are coming around too.
We shall see how much good it will do in the long run. The new Iraqi government will not be as secular as the US would have liked it. Too bad :p
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:47
Were you in the shit?

/Rushmore
LOL! I suppose you could say that. I was in several firefights, ambushes, mortor and rocket attacks, etc.
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 15:50
Ein Deutscher']Most are unsuitable for these forums, sorry. But the link I gave is a good start.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4328615.stm


So, you're going to base your entire argument on a handful of military screw-ups?

I have known more screw-ups at the 2 bases I've served at than have been shown in the news as having beaten Iraqi prisoners.

If I really cared to waste the time on it, I could find similar articles concerning civilians around the globe. But, why do that? Civilians arent on trial here, just military members
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 15:51
Ein Deutscher']We shall see how much good it will do in the long run. The new Iraqi government will not be as secular as the US would have liked it. Too bad :p
Not bad at all. Allahu akbar :p
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:53
Ein Deutscher']Most are unsuitable for these forums, sorry. But the link I gave is a good start.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4328615.stm
As I said, we all choose what we want to believe. For every reference you can come up with about something questionable American troops have done, I can come up with a dozen about things they have done right.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:53
So, you're going to base your entire argument on a handful of military screw-ups?

I have known more screw-ups at the 2 bases I've served at than have been shown in the news as having beaten Iraqi prisoners.

If I really cared to waste the time on it, I could find similar articles concerning civilians around the globe. But, why do that? Civilians arent on trial here, just military members
It's not a handful of screw ups. It's just a handful that make it out into the public. Abu-Ghraib, Guantanamo, abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. are all systemic problems with the US view of themselves in the world and their unholy ability to ignore any responsibility for their actions.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 15:53
Not bad at all. Allahu akbar :p

Yes, not bad. What's important is that we cleaned up our mess - Saddam. As it was necessary to clean up our mess in Afghanistan - the people we armed against the Soviets.

Just like we cleaned up Germany and Japan.

Just like the French clean up in their previous colonies.
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 15:55
Yes, not bad. What's important is that we cleaned up our mess - Saddam. As it was necessary to clean up our mess in Afghanistan - the people we armed against the Soviets.

Just like we cleaned up Germany and Japan.

Just like the French clean up in their previous colonies.
I agree, and there is no reason why modernization and prosperity should be incompatible with Islam in Iraq.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:55
Ein Deutscher']We shall see how much good it will do in the long run. The new Iraqi government will not be as secular as the US would have liked it. Too bad :p
It will be their government. They have the right to determine what it will look like. It's called "right to self-determination," albiet not including the "right" to kill those with whom you disagree.
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 15:58
Ein Deutscher']It's not a handful of screw ups. It's just a handful that make it out into the public. Abu-Ghraib, Guantanamo, abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. are all systemic problems with the US view of themselves in the world and their unholy ability to ignore any responsibility for their actions.


I find it amazing that very little coverage of US soldiers helping Iraqis makes it out into the media. This is what we call 'bias'.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 15:58
Ein Deutscher']It's not a handful of screw ups. It's just a handful that make it out into the public. Abu-Ghraib, Guantanamo, abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc. are all systemic problems with the US view of themselves in the world and their unholy ability to ignore any responsibility for their actions.
Kinda like we're all so painfully familiar with the noble actions of Germany over the past 200 years or so. :rolleyes:
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:58
It will be their government. They have the right to determine what it will look like. It's called "right to self-determination," albiet not including the "right" to kill those with whom you disagree.
Ah but we know what the US thinks of countries that want to determine themselves. It's after all the country best known for dabbling in other nation's businesses and overthrowing democracies where they aren't suitable for US interests. Since the US can still build it's military bases in Iraq, I guess the new Iraqi government will not be such a thorn in their side. But give it a few years or decades and we shall see who then has "WMD" in Iraq again.
Monkeypimp
04-04-2005, 15:58
*sigh* this could have been an interesting thread if it had stayed on topic. I was against the Iraq war as much as the next guy, but why get into these arguements of the same old topics in this particular thread?
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 15:59
Kinda like we're all so painfully familiar with the noble actions of Germany over the past 200 years or so. :rolleyes:
Distracting from your own failures by digging in the past eh. I always see this tactic used against me. You'll fail. :rolleyes:
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 16:00
Ein Deutscher']Ah but we know what the US thinks of countries that want to determine themselves. It's after all the country best known for dabbling in other nation's businesses and overthrowing democracies where they aren't suitable for US interests. Since the US can still build it's military bases in Iraq, I guess the new Iraqi government will not be such a thorn in their side. But give it a few years or decades and we shall see who then has "WMD" in Iraq again.
Alright, come back in a few years and resume this discussion and we'll see who's right. There's no reason for you to call all American soldiers war criminals based your fortune telling and on a few isolated incidents of stupidity.
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 16:00
Ein Deutscher']Ah but we know what the US thinks of countries that want to determine themselves. It's after all the country best known for dabbling in other nation's businesses and overthrowing democracies where they aren't suitable for US interests.


I could think of a few other nations that this quote would apply to as well...
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:02
I find it amazing that very little coverage of US soldiers helping Iraqis makes it out into the media. This is what we call 'bias'.
There is some coverage of that aswell. However it's not so interesting for the media, I guess. Only shocking news generate viewership and scandals as seen in Iraq and Afghanistan, are excellent for that purpose. The downside is, that with the backing of the US high command (Rumsfeld, Bush, etc.), these atrocities gain a quality of their own which borders on state sanctioned terrorism and torture. Something which the US is supposedly fighting against in this so-called "War on Terror".
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:03
Alright, come back in a few years and resume this discussion and we'll see who's right. There's no reason for you to call all American soldiers war criminals based your fortune telling and on a few isolated incidents of stupidity.
Hundreds of cases do not make "a few isolated incidents". However downplaying these incidents is a special quality of the American public to preserve their own selfimage of eternal glory and holy goodness.
Frangland
04-04-2005, 16:04
Ein Deutscher']The photos are numerous. Video footage is of course rather rare. Still it provides ample evidence and backing for my opinion. The fact that you're "patriotic Americans" is enough for me to not attempt to change your mind. It would be futile, since you've been brainwashed since your childhood.

Who brainwashed you, Gorbachev?

Saddam?

Usama?

Kim Il Jong (think that's the little wacko's name)

hmmm....

I point to the vote. You cannot deny (unequivocally) that the Iraqis (at least the non-terrorist types) appreciate the fact that they were able to vote and that Saddam is no longer in power.

For the millionth time (I can't believe some people just.. don't.. get.. it.. still....), WE HAVE DONE, AND ARE DOING, A VERY GOOD DEED.
Keruvalia
04-04-2005, 16:04
Do you have any proof that the American war mentaility has changed from Vietnam to Iraq? I wached many people on TV telling that they were "gunna sho those A-rabs about democracy" and "Gee, I'm gunna go kill some sand niggers".

Trust me ... the Army would not let them keep that attitude very long.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:05
Trust me ... the Army would not let them keep that attitude very long.
Try telling that to Ein.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 16:05
Ein Deutscher']You'll fail.
I hardly ever do. :D
Keruvalia
04-04-2005, 16:09
No one has more than two cheeks.

Technically, we have four. ;) Though I figure that once the top two have been slapped, the bottom two should be kissed.
Frangland
04-04-2005, 16:09
Try telling that to Ein.

Would you please tell Ein Deutscher all the positive things you saw in Iraq?

Or... at least what the people, by and large, thought of the ousting of Saddam and their resulting freedom from his oppression?

Were THEY grateful?
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 16:13
Technically, we have four. ;) Though I figure that once the top two have been slapped, the bottom two should be kissed.
LOL! Well, there are a few to whom I would love to extend an invitation to kiss the bottom two, but that's not permitted here! :D
Keruvalia
04-04-2005, 16:13
Were THEY grateful?

Kinda remains to be seen, ya know? How many average colonists were against revolting against England in the 1770s? I, for one, am glad we did it, though.
Kroblexskij
04-04-2005, 16:14
do you have to spray and pay with your own money
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 16:15
Let's get back to the topic at hand here...Just keep in mind that a some people want us to fail as they're incapable of doing the job themselves. America bashing is in fashion these days by foreign Governments who need to keep their population's mind off things like double digit unemployment, a reduced GDP output leading to a rapid decrease of cradle to grave social policies, and rampant racism towards immigrants.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:16
Btw here's another link for the doubters who say the US military is so angelic :p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4150429.stm
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 16:18
Ein Deutscher']Btw here's another link for the doubters who say the US military is so angelic :p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4150429.stm

Not sure about you but I don't want my military to be Angelic. Their job is to fight and win wars. They're doing a fine job in my opinion.
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 16:18
Perhaps the whole intestine thing, but look what happened in Vietnam. US troops murdured thousands of innocent Vietnamese for no reason at all! It can only be assumed that the same thing is happening in Iraq.


Keep assuming as you are free to. You're also living proof that you're free to be a piece of filth.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:19
Not sure about you but I don't want my military to be Angelic. Their job is to fight and win wars. They're doing a fine job in my opinion.
Sure, if committing war crimes and violating human rights left and right on civilians is "doing a fine job" for you. Whatever pleases the plebs, eh.
Keruvalia
04-04-2005, 16:19
Ein Deutscher']Btw here's another link for the doubters who say the US military is so angelic :p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4150429.stm

Nobody said they were angelic. However, you'll notice something ...

Sgt Tracy Perkins could face up to 29 years in prison

Army Sgt Tracy Perkins, 33, is on trial for an array of charges including involuntary manslaughter.


Sgt Reggie Martinez is charged with manslaughter and Specialist Terry Bowman is charged with assault.

In short, we're not patting them on the back and saying, "Good job, soldier."

The Army may move slowly - hell, everybody knows the motto is really "Hurry up and wait" - but it moves effectively.
Kusarii
04-04-2005, 16:20
If I don't have an answer for you, one of two things is true:

1. I'll find the answer for you, or...

2. Your question is stupid! :D

Etrusca,

Did you ever wish you'd stayed in the military? Perhaps in a staff position till later on in life?

And how was the social side of life in vietnam? Was it like the movies portray or was it different? ie off duty. :)
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:20
Would you please tell Ein Deutscher all the positive things you saw in Iraq?

Or... at least what the people, by and large, thought of the ousting of Saddam and their resulting freedom from his oppression?

Were THEY grateful?

Here's something from Tom Green (the comedian)

January 2004.

Just got back from Iraq. I woke up this morning in my own bed for the first time in two weeks. I've been sleeping in tents, hotels; even what I think may have been one of Saddam Hussein's brothels. But this morning I woke up in Los Angeles. I fumble around the house, make some coffee… I'm jet-lagged from having just flown around the world, and basically spent the night in my new house staring at the ceiling. For some reason, even though its 6 a.m., I turn on the TV to the Fox News channel. While I was sleeping, another bomb went off in Baghdad.

This one was a large one. It killed 21 Iraqis and two Americans. However, this time as I watch the news unfurl, something feels different. This time I recognize the street. About 48 hours earlier I had been in the exact spot where this large bomb just exploded. I had slept only a half-mile from the point of detonation. In the morning I had been driven past it in a convoy of Humvees by several young machine gun wielding American soldiers. They were bringing my friend Glenn Humplik and me to our ride, which on this day, ridiculously, happened to be a Blackhawk helicopter. They had me wearing a camouflaged flak jacket and helmet. We drove quickly down this street in Baghdad, at the time taking what seemed like unnecessary precautions. A small plastic bag sat on the road, the Humvee swerved to avoid it and immediately the soldier in front of me radioed in to someone... "Package on road." We got to our Blackhawk helicopter, flew to the Baghdad International airport and were whisked out of the country on a military C-130 transport plane.

Now, only a short time later, here I was watching that street from the other side of the world. There was smoke, fire, mangled car wreckage, tanks, and… bodies. The young American troops on the television were running, and frantically directing traffic… Those troops who you can't really see on TV under the sunglasses and helmets and equipment… Some of those very soldiers I was watching, I may have just met. I had eaten dinner, joked with, and spent a great deal of time with them. When they are right in front of you, not on the TV, helmets off and excited, they appear surprisingly young. You would think it would give one perspective. But having met all of these young men and women in some ways made what I was watching on television more difficult to grasp. But let's start at the beginning. What the hell was I doing in Iraq in the first place?

About a year ago I contacted the USO. I wanted to go overseas and visit with the troops. I wasn't at first sure why. I think I was more curious than anything else. Many of my comedic idols had done the same. Having just finished reading several books on Jack Paar, an early host of The Tonight Show, I learned that PAAR had spent his time in the military performing for troops in Guadalcanal, providing much needed laughter to men fighting in World War II. I also had what one could describe as a military background. My father was a Captain in the Canadian Army, he drove tanks… or maybe it was just "the tank". I'm not really sure how many they have up there in the Canadian army. Regardless, I grew up on an army base. My father was away for sometimes year-long tours, serving with the U.N. as a peacekeeper both in Vietnam and Cyprus. I remembered what it was like to be separated in a military family. The more I read about Jack Paar, and Bob Hope and others, the more I became curious about how the USO worked. So on a whim I contacted them and they sent me to Kosovo.

I traveled to several different bases, doing what is referred to as a "handshake tour" meeting with thousands of soldiers in the region. To say the least, it was a very positive experience that I wanted to commit to again.

So this time, the intinerary included several American military bases, in five different Middle Eastern and African countries, including Iraq. We flew commercial, on KLM to Amsterdam. After a four-hour layover I boarded Gulf Air to our first stop in Bahrain, a country that borders Saudi Arabia. Everybody on the plane was decked in robes and traditional headdresses. A plane full of Sheiks. Thing were starting to get weird.

I have to admit, that apart from supporting the troops (which I feel is important), a big part of the reason I like doing these tours is you really get to see some parts of the world you would otherwise probably never go. We were scheduled to visit Bahrain, then Abu Dhabi in The United Arab Emirates, then on to Djibouti in Africa, then Kuwait, and finally Iraq. After nearly 24 hours in airports and airplanes, my friend Glenn Humplik and I hobbled off the plane into the other side of the world. Our USO escort Tracy greeted us along with some military personnel and we were shuttled to hotel. Here we would spend our first night in Bahrain.

Bahrain is, in a sense, the Las Vegas of The Middle East. Muslims say that a black cloud hangs over Bahrain that Allah cannot see through. Because of this, alcohol is allowed. (It is prohibited in most Muslim countries). Apparently they found a loophole in the Koran. It is a city filled with Saudi Arabian Sheiks who essentially come to party... I assumed I was walking into a world unlike any I had ever seen. As different as everything was, whenever I travel I am consistently disappointed at how western the world is becoming. Within minutes of landing at the airport, I had got to choose my first Middle Eastern dining and cultural experience. I walked into a Kentucky Fried Chicken. Of course my choices were between this, a Dairy Queen, a McDonalds, and Cinnabon. Dejectedly I ordered a three-piece chicken combo. I'd flown halfway around the globe to eat western fast food. It kind of took a bit of the zip out of the where-the-hell-am-I-ness of it all. But it also kind of made you think... do these people really hate us? They certainly don't seem to mind the seven herbs and spices.

The next day we woke up early, and the tour began. For the next two weeks, we were scheduled to live on several U.S. bases. I was there to visit with the soldiers, hang out, get some classified tours, sit in some cool airplanes and helicopters, have some beers with the soldiers, (beer is available on some U.S. bases in non-combat zones) take some pictures, sign some autographs, goof around and try to get some laughs.

After an impromptu stand-up performance at a local military school, we returned to the base and ate in the mess hall with about 1000 soldiers. The base in Bahrain is one of several jumping-off points to Iraq, so many of them had either just returned, or were just about to go to Baghdad. I remember from Kosovo being surprised at how young all of these soldiers seemed. It was no different here. After hanging out with them all day you notice yourself sometimes referring to them as "kids". It's kind of a surprising realization; the troops on television just appear older. But after spending a day talking with them about skateboarding, and Grand Theft Auto… You realize that many of them are barely out of their teens.

The thing you instantly are aware of is that they are all very very happy to see you. As I was led around the base, they would come running up to shake my hand, to thank me for coming to visit. To be honest, it throws you a bit. I'm kinda thinking, "what are you thanking me for, you guys are risking your lives over here!" It's as if these soldiers have an underlying anxiety that perhaps what they are doing over there is forgotten in America. It's as if the mere presence of someone they recognize from back home does much more for their morale than any of us could understand. On a daily basis, an officer would approach, and in an almost ceremonial manner present me with a coin of excellence. These unique brass coins marked with units insignia are awarded to soldiers for excellent behavior. You may or may not have heard… But minus a few Razzies, which I'm quite proud of… I'm not someone who gets many awards. I wanted to say to the General, or the Sgt. Major… Give this coin to someone who deserves it… Have you got the right guy? But they would insist that what we were doing was a great help to the soldiers. You could sense that they were right. You could see it in the troops faces. They smiled and laughed twice as hard as any joke deserved. For a performer, it's a side benefit that makes these trips very worthwhile. You leave, thinking you're much funnier than you actually are.

All of them wanted to talk about other USO tours and you could tell it had been the highlight of that week for them. "When Bruce Willis was here he bought us all beers! Are you gonna buy us all beers?" Or… "I got Robin William's autograph!" Every soldier had a pocket digital camera and everybody wanted pictures. They are all on e-mail with their families… even in Baghdad. In one of Saddam Hussein's palaces they had set up an Internet room for the soldiers, and every base has an Internet tent with a dozen or so computers on-line. With modern communication it is clear that war has changed for the soldier. Even just ten years ago during The Gulf War, they were sending letters with regular mail, there was no e-mail access on the bases. Now they can send photos and e-mail back and forth daily. Clearly these tours give them something fun and positive to talk about. One British officer, with whom I chatted with in the lobby of the Baghdad international airport, tried to explain to me that every day over there can start to feel like Groundhog Day. Every 24 hours are exactly the same - same job, same tasks. Just a minor variation can be a really big deal, and these tours positively affect morale long after they end.

For the record, I didn't pick up the beer tab for the1000 soldiers like Bruce Willis did. He makes a lot more money than me… (Like I have to tell ya that). But Glenn and I did get wasted in Djibouti. We stayed up drinking and smoking a traditional hookah-pipe with about 300 guys till about 3 in the morning. They even let me take a leak on a helicopter!

So this was the beginning of the tour. We went from base to base, country to country. We slept in tents and were given the complete classified tour of these bases. It was pretty cool getting to sit in a U2 spy plane, a rarely-seen vehicle than can reach over 70 000 feet and the pilot wears a space suit. We got were shown the control room of the remote controlled Predator aircraft. We got to sit on some bombed out jet hangers that the U.S, had destroyed during the Gulf war in Kuwait. It was all pretty amazing.

One day in Djibouti Africa, we drove off the base where literally dozens of starving children surrounded our car, begging us not for money… but for water. This was a curveball that I wasn't expecting on the trip. It was a kind of poverty… (Or perhaps poverty is not the correct word) it was the kind of despair that I have never seen. To be honest, it is really an entire article in itself. When you have 15 starving kids tugging on your shirt, with tears running down their faces, looking in your eyes and desperately screaming the word "water"… the only English word they know… It changes you. Especially when you don't have any water in the car. It was so overwhelming that at one point I began to cry. Embarrassed I walked out into the desert and wiped my eyes where nobody could see. We drove back to the base that day in guilty silence. The whole thing was pretty eye opening. The next morning before we caught our C-130 to Kuwait, I asked our military escort to fill the truck with cases of bottled water. We drove back down the same road and gave it all away to the kids. Although it made me feel a little better about denying them the day before, I'm afraid it probably won't make a difference in the long run. I wanted to stay in Africa longer, and I will go back someday. But we had to go to Iraq.

It was clear from talking to most of the guys that Iraq was really where this war was happening. Although the air bases we were at were directly involved, either as a place for refueling jets to take off and land. Or as a jumping off point for troops. It was clear that the soldiers knew that the guys in Iraq were the ones under fire. Everybody would ask where we had been? How long had we been over here? Usually when the guys in Kuwait or Bahrain or Djibouti heard that we were going to Iraq… you could tell they were surprised. It really isn't a joke. As much as we had gotten used to being in the Middle East and eating hummus and shawarma for dinner, it was clear that Iraq was a different level. It was clear from talking to the soldiers that that place should not be taken lightly.

We flew into Kuwait; we were getting closer to the war zone, you could sense it. It's a hard thing to put your finger on, but it seemed the tone of the soldiers was more serious the closer we got to the Iraqi border. As you drove past buildings the Iraqis had bombed in the previous Gulf War, a sense of reality kicked in. I wanted to take some pictures so we pulled over in the desert. We now had to travel in convoys of three vehicles for security. We had two armed MP's in our car at all times. As I snapped some pictures of charred bombed out buildings, I turned around and was surprised to see our escorts had their guns drawn. One of them said to me, "Don't walk any further please, stay near the car." I asked "Why, are there land mines." "No he said, we just don't know who's over there. See those sheep, they have an owner nearby… he could be a hostile." I thought for a second he was joking. When I realized he wasn't, for the first time on the trip I felt unsafe. The policy in Kuwait was to drive in non-military vehicles in civilian clothes. The idea was that it would draw less attention to you as being military, making you less of a target. I wondered if the four drawn M-16's might have been a bit of a tip off.

The next day we woke up around seven a.m. and drove to the airport. We boarded a C-130, this one was flying into Iraq. Throughout the tour the pilots had Glenn and I sit up in the cockpit. We would throw on the headsets and joke and carry on. On this trip into an official war-zone the mood seemed noticeably more serious. Before we took off I heard the word "defensive measures… check" It perked me up as I hadn't heard that before. "What are defensive measures?" I asked with an equal blend of curiosity and nervousness. "Well the two guys in the back are watching the ground from the windows, if we see a plume of smoke on the desert, that's a missile being launched at us… We have a method of trying to evade it." I asked how it worked… "I'm afraid that's classified," he said… again without irony.

Once we got in the air however, things began to lighten up a bit. The pilot got on the headset… "So I loved you in Joe Dirt." I respond, "Uhh I wasn't in that one, that was David Spade." And all the guy's start laughing, "I've been waiting to do that all day!" It's moments like this that make one pause. You're flying over the Iraqi desert into Baghdad with reserves from the Illinois National Guard. Your above Iraq laughing and talking about regular shit, like Joe Dirt and Road Trip, and American Idol, and Jackass, and Freddy Got Fingered for crying out loud. And it hits you that these young enlisted men and women are just regular young MTV-watching folks. They are ordinary young American's fulfilling an extraordinary duty. It's the regular-kid-next-door-I-pod-blaring-Christina Aguilera side of the American soldier that you don't often see at home. Relatability is a surprise that makes what they do that much more amazing. And you find yourself feeling proud to be defended by them.

We landed in Iraq and over the next three days lived a whirlwind of exhilarating and profound moments. Flying through Baghdad in a Blackhawk with machine gunners hanging out the windows. Walking through one of Saddam Hussein's many palaces amazed at it grandiosity of marble and gold only to be informed that this is in fact "the maids quarters"… and that the actual palace is… "That big one up on the hill". One young soldier showed me his metal breastplate from his flak jacket. There was a bullet lodged in it. Only a few days before he had been knocked 15 feet when he was shot in the vest by an enemy AK-47. The forced knocked the wind out of him, and he lay on the ground assuming he was dead. Now only a few days later he was back at work, in the line-up at the mess hall, waiting for his Salisbury steak and beans. As a reminder he hangs the metal breastplate in his tent beside his bed.

You find yourself on these tours living moments you never would have expected. In Nasseriah, the place of the famous Jessica Lynch rescue, we climbed to the top of the Ziggurat. This architectural treasure is actually on the Tillil Airbase at the edge of that city. It turns out this pyramid is actually the second oldest man made structure on the planet, built over 2000 years before Christ. It is the birthplace of Abraham and the ruins of his home are visible nearby. You are in the Garden of Eden… The actual Garden Of Eden! There are no tour buses, there isn't an entrance fee, and you are there by yourself. We climbed to the top and in the distance across the dry desert plains we can see a humvee driving towards us. Two air force guards hop out, seemingly sight-seeing themselves. As they climb the long ancient staircase towards us the younger of the two recognizes Glenn and I. His eyes widen with confusion having not heard we were in town. "Holy Crap! Tom Green?! What the hell are you doing here?" Here in the cradle of civilization , I looked back at him and the other soldier, and told them… "We're here to say thanks."
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 16:20
Ein Deutscher']Hundreds of cases do not make "a few isolated incidents". However downplaying these incidents is a special quality of the American public to preserve their own selfimage of eternal glory and holy goodness.
A few hundred cases mostly limited to a small number of prisons, plus a few more bad seeds here and there. Condemnable, but that doesn't make the average American soldier a genocidal barbarian as you and South Islands claim. The overwhelming majority of soldiers in Iraq know that they are helping out the people and the country.
Swimmingpool
04-04-2005, 16:21
Eutrusca, do people respect your service? Do you use the fact that you're a veteran to get stuff? ;)

How did it feel killing those screaming kids, and pulling out their intestines, in Vietnam?
This has got to be flaming.
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 16:23
Ein Deutscher']Sure, if committing war crimes and violating human rights left and right on civilians is "doing a fine job" for you. Whatever pleases the plebs, eh.
The Iraqis are fine with us. The US prosecutes violators of human rights, and has good relations with the plebs in Iraq.
Extradites
04-04-2005, 16:24
In many ways Iraq and Vietnam are polar opposites. In Vietnam the American forces were fighting on the side of a brutal dictatorship, against rebels trying to overthrow it, but in Iraq they were fighting against the dictatorship. Comparing them is pretty far fetched.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 16:27
Ein Deutscher']Sure, if committing war crimes and violating human rights left and right on civilians is "doing a fine job" for you. Whatever pleases the plebs, eh.

But that's the nature of war isn't it. War is the violation of human rights and civilians die. I'm pleased with the job they've done thus far and very proud of them. Not to get off topic, how is this different?

Al-Qaeda: a model for neo-Nazis?
The string of terror attacks around the world orchestrated by al-Qaeda has raised fears among German police that the nation's neo-Nazi movement might trying to learn from the tactics used by Osama bin Laden's network of loosely connected cells. Ernest Gill asks: are neo-Nazis adopting a new strategy of violence?

Osama bin Laden
Osama bin Laden's tactics could be a model of Germany's radical right
"For five years we have been running this snack bar and there's never been any trouble," the 38-year-old Vietnamese immigrant says as she wraps a veal doner kebab in foil and hands it to a customer with what she hopes passes for a smile.

"But I'm terrified now, after what happened to my husband the other evening."

It was right here, at the Euro Imbiss snack bar at the corner of Rudower and Glienicker streets in Berlin, that her 40-year-old husband was attacked by neo-Nazi thugs.

"He was closing up the stand," she recalls tearfully. "And I was closing up the flower stand I run to help make ends meet. And that was when they ..." but she cannot finish the sentence.

Three young men in hobnail boots, jeans and bomber jackets drunkenly approached the stand, demanding he give them beer - free of charge.


Neo-Nazi street violence has been on the increase since the start of the year.
When the vendor politely refused, the trio hauled him out from behind his stand and cracked his skull with a baseball bat. Twice.

As he lay on the pavement, the three neo-Nazis repeatedly kicked him while his wife wailed and screamed for help.

The Vietnamese snack vendor is in hospital with numerous fractures and a concussion, lucky to be alive.

The story was consigned to Page 19 of one of the local newspapers, sharing space with a colour story about an influx of wild rabbits in the city's Tiergarten park.
Extradites
04-04-2005, 16:29
In many ways Iraq and Vietnam are polar opposites. In Vietnam the American forces were fighting on the side of a brutal dictatorship, against rebels trying to overthrow it, but in Iraq they were fighting against the dictatorship. Comparing them is pretty far fetched.
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 16:29
Ein Deutscher']It's not an assumption on my part. I base my opinion on observing Americans in Iraq, especially from footage that is not shown in the mainstream media and on these forums. A picture speaks more than a thousand words, is a nice saying here.


This is very intriguing-he has some access to secret footage that we dont and can therefore prove points that we cannot disprove because we dont have the same high-level secret clearance he does.
If we had pictures to prove the contrary, he'd claim the US Government doctored them. Truth and reality can never be proven to the likes of this one. I dont know why they tolerate the rest of us.
There are a lot of "nice sayings"-we're all aware of them.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:32
The US prosecutes violators of human rights, and has good relations with the plebs in Iraq.
But of course...

http://hrw.org/campaigns/torture.htm
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 16:33
In many ways Iraq and Vietnam are polar opposites. In Vietnam the American forces were fighting on the side of a brutal dictatorship, against rebels trying to overthrow it, but in Iraq they were fighting against the dictatorship. Comparing them is pretty far fetched.


Um, I thought Vietnam was fought to stop North Vietnam from invading South Vietnam, ya know, protect South Vietnam from the brutal dicator...
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 16:34
Eutrusca, do people respect your service? Do you use the fact that you're a veteran to get stuff? ;)


This has got to be flaming.


I respect his service, as I do of that of all that have proudly worn the uniform of the United States. I despise people that would mock them. Especially punks that slither anonymously abusing free speech.
Frangland
04-04-2005, 16:34
probably democracynow or some other left-wing hippie nut-job site like that.

some people are just counter-productive and enmeshed in a paradox:

They're pro-liberty -- we oust a dictator, give a people their first free election in 50 years, AND WE'RE WRONG FOR IT. LMAO! Pro-liberty my ass... they're anti-positive-action (hence the "counter-productive" tag).

this is just too easy...

they whine and bitch and moan about war TO FREE PEOPLE... only talk about the collateral damage and not the GOOD that has been done (and is being done) in Iraq.

We're killing those who would harm us and protecting a country's newly given freedom.

I have yet to hear a straight answer from one of these anti-America, non-action folks in argument against the above facts.
Swimmingpool
04-04-2005, 16:35
[snip]

How many times do you stand in the street and let the other guy hit you before you hit him back?
So you're in favour of collective punishment of all Arabs for the terrorist actions of a violent minority?
Plutophobia
04-04-2005, 16:37
If I don't have an answer for you, one of two things is true:

1. I'll find the answer for you, or...

2. Your question is stupid! :D
#1. Do they REALLY say, "Me love you long time"? (Vietnam veteran)
#2. What's that horn growing out of your head and why do you have tentacles? (Gulf War Veteran)
#3. How did they know Hussein was in that hole? (Iraq\Afghanistan war)
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:38
From a friend in Iraq...

I was up near a city called Al HATRA, which is about 75 klicks straight south of Mosul and then another 20 klicks west. The living conditions for the locals were primitive. Electricity was spottily provided, due to the general low up keep of the power grid. I mean there is electricity going to mud brick houses with dirt floors and thatch roofs! Do you think there might be a short sometime!?! UGH!

I was a superviser of about ten workers and they were excited to be working for $10-$12 a day! There was NO other source of income in the area. My workers worked 6 days a week, 12 hour days. Many were getting a satellite system and TV for the first time in their lives! Saddam had outlawed any form of TV other than state run propaganda, if someone was found with a satellite dish, their whole family was executed. If another family knew of the dish but didn't tell the police, then they were executed as well. Others in my crew were getting Air Conditioning, refrigerators ('Tha-lidge'! or ice!)

The workers in this area are still governed by a Sheik who takes a portion of their money similar to a Union or Mafia boss. It is a clan based system and has worked for thousands of years and they will NOT change that, it is the only way they know. Under Saddam, school only went until a person was 12-13, then they were out and working. Rare examples would have their family rep (normally the Father) go before the Sheik to plead for the clan to send their child for further education in Mosul and possibly to university. This was rarely done for the honorable son, first born male of the first wife.

It was RIGHT ON FUCKING AMAZING for me to see some of my younger workers (approx. 16 yo) working their asses off to save enough money because they have the FIRE to go to University! They wanted to do it themselves and NOT have their family indebted to the Sheik to go to University! Either that, or because of plural marriage there, they may be the son of the third or fourth wife, and the Father just won't go to bat for those kids. Yeah it gets confusing.

Tell your friends the American presence is creating a middle-class. Under Saddam there was the extremely wealthy (2%) the business middle class (2%) and the others were dirt assed poor (96%). These are rough guess-timates from talking with the whole village and is based on a rural area in the north-west of Iraq and I was told it is very similar for the North of Iraq above Baghdad, with some minor population skewing in the cities.

I was a senior in college when I took off and went to Iraq for a UXO contracting gig for eight months. I went because I wanted to support our troops and America in this endeavor and I believe in the Iraqi Freedom cause. My College (Columbia College of Missouri) is an evening college and generally has more mature adult students who appreciate what college is and how much it costs in time and money. But that didn't even compare to the fire that was lit in some of my workers! They wanted to be better, they knew they could do it, they just desired the oppurtunity. The United States of America helped fulfill that oppurtunity for them. Not by giving them money for college, not by providing them a loan. BUT, by allowing them an oppurtunity to fucking TOIL and earn a profitable wage! They EARNED that money and were very appreciative of their accomplishments & earnings! When I left last Novemeber, 2 of my original 10 were off to Mosul for University. Whether they make it or not, they are definately better for trying!

The city of Al HATRA is better for the presence of the US Army there, as more people have money to make money with! I am very thankful for my own oppurtunity to contribute to America and the Iraqi Freedom cause. I would love to go back, but my Fiancee is worried, due to the media over-stating the dangers to civilians working in Iraq (maybe because the media that is over there never served in the military and are a bunch of pussies!?!).
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 16:38
Ein Deutscher']But of course...

http://hrw.org/campaigns/torture.htm
Meh, Iraqis culturally have no problem with capital punishment and torture, neither do I. (I'm from China, we Chinese tend to support capital punishment too) Abuse of innocent people is definitely violating human rights, but there is no reason why we can't play around with criminals in Iraq or in this country.
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 16:38
Do they REALLY say, "Me love you long time"?

OMG, I literally fell out of my chair laughing when I read this...

Thank you for brightening up an otherwise dreary day ;)
Zooke
04-04-2005, 16:39
Is it true that the Navy are the chauffeurs and cooks and the Army are the clean up crew for the Marines? That's what my other half says. :p
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:40
bla... bla... bla... neocon-propaganda drivel.. bla... bla... bla...

If things like this (http://aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=7446) weren't so common nowadays, maybe the world would not bitch so much about the US? Maybe if the US had gotten a UN mandate to start this war, the world would not bitch? Maybe if the US would have presented some believable facts instead of the fabricated crap that was presented to the UN, the world would not bitch?

Alas, the US has failed so often lately, it is a surprise that you can't see why the world bitches.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:40
And from another friend in Iraq...

I drive through an un named (opsec) city everyday. Since I have been here working in this city I have seen a huge change. I see iraqis working everywhere. The locals tell me that they used to make $5 a week. Now they can make $10-$12 a day if they are lucky. I see street crews out sweeping and picking up trash, and the city dump has a continuous line of dump trucks coming to drop off trash. I see kids running the streets on bikes, sometimes till WAY to late at night and I see police officers in uniform directing traffic at 99% of the intersections. The people when they do recognize us as Coalition Forces wave, give the thumbs up or just smile. I saw a new car lot that has opened in just the past week. And as for the electrical issues I know they have it in the city here. They are starting to fix street lights and curbs and they are even working everyday to clean up a city park which before was used to assasinate locals.

I was told last week that the university here has had a 200% enrollment increase since 2003. That says a lot right there. We can't even drive down the street that it sits on when class lets out because of all the buses, taxis and cars picking up students. I see little boys and girls walking to a school near where I stay in their uniforms, carrying bookbags handed out by US aid organizations. I see teenagers hanging out and talking by the river (always in seperate groups boys in one place girls in another) and here is the biggie. Last weekend they had a rally of some kind in the city. They set up a stage, banners, chairs and they had speakers come from other cities. No one told them they couldn't, no one told them what they could and couldn't say, no one ran them off or drug them off and shot them because they had different views. Two days later the stage was gone, the banners were gone and there was no trash left at the location which shows they are starting to take pride in their city again.

Now don't get me totally wrong. There is poverty here on a scale I have never seen before. Saddam built 78 palaces and let his people live in shantys But I had one guy, who lives in a mud hut he built himself who loves the americans because now he is allowed to have a satellite dish. They are spouting up all over the place. $140 US will get you a dish and reciever. That will give you 500 channels of Saddam free programming. Their eyes are opening to just how oppressed they were and I am proud to be one of the guys helping to do that. I know what is really going on here. I just wish the news would spend as much time following the good events as they do the one lone IED on the street that now has streetlights, new car lots, and a police station that is not totally full of crooks.
Neutered Sputniks
04-04-2005, 16:40
Is it true that the Navy are the chauffeurs and cooks and the Army are the clean up crew for the Marines? That's what my other half says. :p



Didnt you know Marine stands for My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment? I dont think the Navy'd appreciate the Marines treating them like chauffeurs and cooks...lol
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:41
Meh, Iraqis culturally have no problem with capital punishment and torture, neither do I. (I'm from China, we Chinese tend to support capital punishment too) Abuse of innocent people is definitely violating human rights, but there is no reason why we can't play around with criminals in Iraq or in this country.
Utter nonsense. If the nazis had used this argument during WW2, you'd have had no reason to invade Germany. :headbang:
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:42
More news from Iraq (Iraqis risk their lives to save Americans!)

Ordinary Iraqis Doing Extraordinary Things April 4, 2005

Warnings from an Iraqi pedestrian on a major Iraqi roadway prevented Soldiers from entering the kill zone of a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device Mar. 31.

“His actions minimized equipment loss but still allowed us to move and accomplish our mission,” said 1st Lt. Alberto Reynoso, platoon leader assigned to A Battery, 1st Battalion, 76th Field Artillery and a native of Fillmore, Calif. “He saved my gunners life by what he did.”

Reynoso added that without the man’s warnings, his Soldier would have been injured and the convoy would have sustained extensive damage.

The convoy was traveling toward the Baghdad International Airport when Reynoso saw a man standing on the side of the road raising his hands and pointing to a parked vehicle on the side of the road with the hood up.

Reynoso heeded the warnings of the man and stopped the convoy about 30 meters from the parked vehicle. The vehicle exploded shortly after the convoy stopped. No Soldiers were injured in the blast and two HMMWV’s were only slightly damaged.

The VBIED was carrying three daisy-chained 130 millimeter artillery rounds.

The man who warned the convoy was standing approximately 10 meters from the VBIED. After the explosion, he emerged from the smoke and ran away from the area holding his back from possible shrapnel injuries. Soldiers from the convoy searched the area but were unable to find the man.

The drivers of two civilian vehicles traveling in the opposite direction of the U.S. convoy suffered minor injuries from the blast.

“We want to thank him for what he did and make sure he got taken care of,” said Reynoso. “If he did sustain injuries, we want to provide care for him.”

Multinational forces are trying to locate the man and find out his condition.
Trilateral Commission
04-04-2005, 16:43
Ein Deutscher']Utter nonsense. If the nazis had used this argument during WW2, you'd have had no reason to invade Germany. :headbang:
???
The Germans declared war on the USA...
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 16:43
Ein Deutscher']If things like this (http://aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=7446) weren't so common nowadays, maybe the world would not bitch so much about the US? Maybe if the US had gotten a UN mandate to start this war, the world would not bitch? Maybe if the US would have presented some believable facts instead of the fabricated crap that was presented to the UN, the world would not bitch?

Alas, the US has failed so often lately, it is a surprise that you can't see why the world bitches.

Why are you so worried about human rights in Iraq when your country commits the same abuses to immigrants?


Neo-Nazism: It's Not Just in Germany's Beer Halls Anymore
by Martin A. Lee

SAN FRANCISCO -- Fatma Elaldi, a Turkish-born woman who had been a legal resident of Germany for two decades, needed a new heart to survive beyond two more years. But her request for a heart transplant was denied by a pioneering clinic. Why? Because she didn't speak German.

The Heart and Diabetes Center near Hanover told Elaldi, 56, that her poor grasp of the German language would impair her post-operative care. Even though she had medical insurance, a hospital in Cologne also refused to give her a transplant. "It smacks simply of racism," said Elaldi's daughter Bektas, who is fluent in German. "I could tell them everything she tells me."

Elaldi's bitter experience is particularly ironic given that many foreign doctors practice medicine in Germany, including some of the country's most gifted heart specialists. Although foreign doctors have saved thousands of German lives, dark-skinned surgeons are reluctant to work in eastern Germany, where racist attacks against "non-Germans" are brutal and increasingly commonplace.

In one such attack, Omar Ben Noui, a 28-year-old Algerian asylum seeker, bled to death after he hurled himself through the glass door of a house while trying to escape from a neo-Nazi mob that chased and terrorized him. This sadistic manhunt, which targeted Ben Noui and two of his companions from Africa, occurred in the eastern town of Guben near the Polish border in February 1999. Eleven young skinheads were tried for causing his death. In some ways even more disturbing than the hate crime itself were the lenient sentences handed down by the court last month. Convicted of manslaughter, only three defendants were given jail terms of two to three years. Two others were let off with court warnings, and the remaining six got probation. "Many must be laughing in far right circles," said Hesham Hammad, vice president of Aktion Courage, an anti-racist group, after the verdict was announced. "We have sent them the wrong signal that they can continue" their attacks. His warning rang true in Guben this past Tuesday, when three neo-Nazis were arrested and charged with stabbing a German boy, allegedly because he looked Asian. One of the three had previously been convicted in the death of Ben Noui.

The outcome of the Ben Noui murder trial was a major setback to the German government's efforts to crack down on right-wing extremism and to promote greater tolerance of foreigners. A few days before the verdicts were announced, some 200,000 people had marched in Berlin to protest neo-Nazi violence. Held on Nov. 9, the 62nd anniversary of the Nazi Kristallnacht pogrom, the huge demonstration was a response to an escalating series of racist and anti-Semitic attacks across Germany. Surging neo-Nazi violence broke all post-Berlin Wall records this year, according to Germany's Federal Criminal Bureau. During the first 10 months of 2000, there were 11,752 reported right-wing extremist crimes, more than in any year since German reunification in 1990. The 20% annual increase in far right attacks included a sharp rise in anti-Semitic crimes. While a disproportionate number of these incidents have occurred in the economically depressed eastern part of the country, the neo-Nazi resurgence is a nationwide problem.

Hate crimes have claimed the lives of more than 90 people since German reunification. Today, the far right has become ever more brazen and sophisticated. Death lists posted on Web sites include the names, addresses and photos of anti-fascists, state employees, trade unionists and other perceived enemies, along with promises of cash for successful arson attacks. The latest official statistics indicate that there are more than 50,000 active right-wing extremists in Germany. Last month, Germany's domestic security chiefs disclosed that they had seized record amounts of weapons and explosives--including pipe bombs, machine guns, several kilos of TNT, anti-tank bazookas, mortars, grenades and pistols--from neo-Nazis in a half dozen raids this year. The discovery of several large arsenals raised fears that right-wing extremists were planning full-scale terrorist attacks. "What we are seeing is a very worrying trend in the organization of far right groups with a view to committing terrorism," says Graeme Atkinson, European editor of the anti-fascist magazine Searchlight. "They are talking about creating a 'leaderless resistance' of terrorist cells--what they call a brown underground--and of ensuring the creation of liberated zones, with foreigners driven out from rural areas and smaller towns."
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 16:43
Etrusca,

Did you ever wish you'd stayed in the military? Perhaps in a staff position till later on in life?
Yes, but that wasn't an option after Vietnam. I was a reserve officer on active duty and they had a massive Reduction In Force ( kinda like a layoff in civilian life ) a few years after I got back from my two years in Vietnam. I did, however, join the Reserves later and almost made it to 20 years before the parachuting accident that disabled me.


And how was the social side of life in vietnam? Was it like the movies portray or was it different? ie off duty. :)
That all depended upon where you were. In the field, away from major population centers, you could read, play cards or drink and that was about it. If you were closer to Saigon or Vung Tau, there was lots of trouble to get into if you were into that sort of thing. :)
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:47
???
The Germans declared war on the USA...

Indeed. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler_declares_war.html
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:49
Why are you so worried about human rights in Iraq when your country commits the same abuses to immigrants?


Neo-Nazism: It's Not Just in Germany's Beer Halls Anymore
by Martin A. Lee

SAN FRANCISCO -- Fatma Elaldi, a Turkish-born woman who had been a legal resident of Germany for two decades, needed a new heart to survive beyond two more years. But her request for a heart transplant was denied by a pioneering clinic. Why? Because she didn't speak German.

The Heart and Diabetes Center near Hanover told Elaldi, 56, that her poor grasp of the German language would impair her post-operative care. Even though she had medical insurance, a hospital in Cologne also refused to give her a transplant. "It smacks simply of racism," said Elaldi's daughter Bektas, who is fluent in German. "I could tell them everything she tells me."

Elaldi's bitter experience is particularly ironic given that many foreign doctors practice medicine in Germany, including some of the country's most gifted heart specialists. Although foreign doctors have saved thousands of German lives, dark-skinned surgeons are reluctant to work in eastern Germany, where racist attacks against "non-Germans" are brutal and increasingly commonplace.

In one such attack, Omar Ben Noui, a 28-year-old Algerian asylum seeker, bled to death after he hurled himself through the glass door of a house while trying to escape from a neo-Nazi mob that chased and terrorized him. This sadistic manhunt, which targeted Ben Noui and two of his companions from Africa, occurred in the eastern town of Guben near the Polish border in February 1999. Eleven young skinheads were tried for causing his death. In some ways even more disturbing than the hate crime itself were the lenient sentences handed down by the court last month. Convicted of manslaughter, only three defendants were given jail terms of two to three years. Two others were let off with court warnings, and the remaining six got probation. "Many must be laughing in far right circles," said Hesham Hammad, vice president of Aktion Courage, an anti-racist group, after the verdict was announced. "We have sent them the wrong signal that they can continue" their attacks. His warning rang true in Guben this past Tuesday, when three neo-Nazis were arrested and charged with stabbing a German boy, allegedly because he looked Asian. One of the three had previously been convicted in the death of Ben Noui.

The outcome of the Ben Noui murder trial was a major setback to the German government's efforts to crack down on right-wing extremism and to promote greater tolerance of foreigners. A few days before the verdicts were announced, some 200,000 people had marched in Berlin to protest neo-Nazi violence. Held on Nov. 9, the 62nd anniversary of the Nazi Kristallnacht pogrom, the huge demonstration was a response to an escalating series of racist and anti-Semitic attacks across Germany. Surging neo-Nazi violence broke all post-Berlin Wall records this year, according to Germany's Federal Criminal Bureau. During the first 10 months of 2000, there were 11,752 reported right-wing extremist crimes, more than in any year since German reunification in 1990. The 20% annual increase in far right attacks included a sharp rise in anti-Semitic crimes. While a disproportionate number of these incidents have occurred in the economically depressed eastern part of the country, the neo-Nazi resurgence is a nationwide problem.

Hate crimes have claimed the lives of more than 90 people since German reunification. Today, the far right has become ever more brazen and sophisticated. Death lists posted on Web sites include the names, addresses and photos of anti-fascists, state employees, trade unionists and other perceived enemies, along with promises of cash for successful arson attacks. The latest official statistics indicate that there are more than 50,000 active right-wing extremists in Germany. Last month, Germany's domestic security chiefs disclosed that they had seized record amounts of weapons and explosives--including pipe bombs, machine guns, several kilos of TNT, anti-tank bazookas, mortars, grenades and pistols--from neo-Nazis in a half dozen raids this year. The discovery of several large arsenals raised fears that right-wing extremists were planning full-scale terrorist attacks. "What we are seeing is a very worrying trend in the organization of far right groups with a view to committing terrorism," says Graeme Atkinson, European editor of the anti-fascist magazine Searchlight. "They are talking about creating a 'leaderless resistance' of terrorist cells--what they call a brown underground--and of ensuring the creation of liberated zones, with foreigners driven out from rural areas and smaller towns."
I have some doubts about the heart-transplant story. Since the "brothel" story, which was later completely debunked, I'm a little careful in trusting what English-speaking news agencies write about Germany - especially if it's meant to portrait Germany in a bad light.

However, 90 deaths in 15 years seems to be a small number still. However, nazism is increasingly becoming a problem, I agree, due to the fact that democracy has failed and the gap between rich and poor is ever widening, with increasing levels of unemployment further worsening the situation. It's however not a national epidemic and probably won't become one, since those in power know very well how to use the tools at their disposal (i.e. police) to safeguard their power.

Still if human rights violations are done by a few deranged lunatics, in our own country, then we're just like any other I guess. If the US military commits such crimes in countries it occupies, then it is a problem. Especially if such atrocities get a systemic nature and are time and time again denied by the government, despite obvious proof that the highest positions know about or even order such things.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:50
Ein Deutscher']I have some doubts about the heart-transplant story. Since the "brothel" story, which was later completely debunked, I'm a little careful in trusting what English-speaking news agencies write about Germany - especially if it's meant to portrait Germany in a bad light.

However, 90 deaths in 15 years seems to be a small number still. However, nazism is increasingly becoming a problem, I agree, due to the fact that democracy has failed and the gap between rich and poor is ever widening, with increasing levels of unemployment further worsening the situation. It's however not a national epidemic and probably won't become one, since those in power know very well how to use the tools at their disposal (i.e. police) to safeguard their power.

It's bound to be a problem in a country where you forgot that Hitler declared war on the United States.
Markreich
04-04-2005, 16:53
So you're in favour of collective punishment of all Arabs for the terrorist actions of a violent minority?

I wasn't aware the US was active against Morocco, Sudan, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Pakistan, Oman, UAE, Kuwait...

I'd hate to think that terrorists would fly planes into buildings in New York to protest against the actions of a governement in Washington DC. :rolleyes:
Swimmingpool
04-04-2005, 16:54
I point to the vote. You cannot deny (unequivocally) that the Iraqis (at least the non-terrorist types) appreciate the fact that they were able to vote and that Saddam is no longer in power.

For the millionth time (I can't believe some people just.. don't.. get.. it.. still....), WE HAVE DONE, AND ARE DOING, A VERY GOOD DEED.
The truth is, some Iraqi civilians like the fact that America is there, and some civilians (not just terrorists) would prefer if the invasion had never happened. I imagine that the latter group mostly live in the war-torn west of the country.

It's too early to tell whether the Iraq war was a good thing, but I have reservations about whether ousting Saddam was really worth all the death and destruction. I also have reservations about the Bush administration's commitment to world democracy, given their attempts to bring down Hugo Chavez of Venezuela (he's a dictator wannabe bastard, but he is democratically elected leader, which should be respected for now, at least.) The US is also supporting the current Haiti military dictatorship.

Um, I thought Vietnam was fought to stop North Vietnam from invading South Vietnam, ya know, protect South Vietnam from the brutal dicator...
South Vietnam had their own brutal dictator. The Vietnam war was a civil war that the USA and France should have stayed out of.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:54
It's bound to be a problem in a country where you forgot that Hitler declared war on the United States.
I didn't forget it, however this war declaration was not why the US invaded. Maybe you should read my words before spewing forth your vitriol?
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:54
Ein Deutscher']I didn't forget it, however this war declaration was not why the US invaded. Maybe you should read my words before spewing forth your vitriol?

It certainly helped. Prior to that, we were only giving money and material to the Allies.
Swimmingpool
04-04-2005, 16:55
I wasn't aware the US was active against Morocco, Sudan, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Pakistan, Oman, UAE, Kuwait...

I'd hate to think that terrorists would fly planes into buildings in New York to protest against the actions of a governement in Washington DC. :rolleyes:
They are not, but you seem to think that Iraqis bear responsibility for terrorism.
Andaluciae
04-04-2005, 16:55
Ooh! Ooh! I have a question!


What do you feel was the major motivation of the average soldier in Vietnam? Did it change from the beginning, to the middle to the end?

or any other war for that matter.
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 16:56
Ein Deutscher']If things like this (http://aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=7446) weren't so common nowadays, maybe the world would not bitch so much about the US? Maybe if the US had gotten a UN mandate to start this war, the world would not bitch? Maybe if the US would have presented some believable facts instead of the fabricated crap that was presented to the UN, the world would not bitch?

Alas, the US has failed so often lately, it is a surprise that you can't see why the world bitches.


We havent failed and we dont care too much about the "bitch".

I know you would sit around waiting to see actual flames and have a fireman testify that-"yes-the couch is probably on fire as there is a good deal of smoke" before you threw water on it. Just sit on your hands hoping it smolders out.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 16:56
It certainly helped. Prior to that, we were only giving money and material to the Allies.
It's however irrelevant to the discussion. Just like the entire thread has long moved away from the original topic. Not that it matters much now hehe...
Frangland
04-04-2005, 16:56
Ein Deutscher']If things like this (http://aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=7446) weren't so common nowadays, maybe the world would not bitch so much about the US? Maybe if the US had gotten a UN mandate to start this war, the world would not bitch? Maybe if the US would have presented some believable facts instead of the fabricated crap that was presented to the UN, the world would not bitch?

Alas, the US has failed so often lately, it is a surprise that you can't see why the world bitches.

That wasn't my quote, btw.

Who gives a f*ck what the UN or world think?

They're not the ones doing the dirty work of ousting dictators and freeing people.

THIS is NOBLE WORK.

perhaps the WORLD is just jealous that they CAN'T do what WE CAN DO.

Let me TELl YOU what would have happened if we'd waited (and waited, and waited, and waited...) for the UN to give us "permission" to depose Saddam and free the Iraqis:

We'd still be waiting.

If you want to get something done, you do NOT allow the UN to run the timetable. They've dropped the ball numerous times before. Thankfully we have a president with a spine and a sense of RESOLVE (freeing people under a dictator IS RIGHT. HOW can you disagree with that statement?) who was not willing to wait for the inactive, pondrous UN to "act".

The UN is a joke.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 16:56
Ein Deutscher']I have some doubts about the heart-transplant story. Since the "brothel" story, which was later completely debunked, I'm a little careful in trusting what English-speaking news agencies write about Germany - especially if it's meant to portrait Germany in a bad light.

However, 90 deaths in 15 years seems to be a small number still. However, nazism is increasingly becoming a problem, I agree, due to the fact that democracy has failed and the gap between rich and poor is ever widening, with increasing levels of unemployment further worsening the situation. It's however not a national epidemic and probably won't become one, since those in power know very well how to use the tools at their disposal (i.e. police) to safeguard their power.

Hmm, you're a liitle careful trusting English speaking news agencies? I'm a little mistrustful of the left wing propaganda sites you get your news from. I'd say that 11,752 reported right-wing extremist crimes, more than in any year since German reunification in 1990 is bordering on an epidemic. My point is with all of this however, is that you're failing to recognize that human rights abuses isn't an inherently American trait. You shouldn't be so quick to point the finger. I'd be more concerned about double digit unemployment and neo nazism in my own country than what the US is doing in Iraq. Of course, I'm not German
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 16:58
They are not, but you seem to think that Iraqis bear responsibility for terrorism.
No.

If you assume that terrorism comes from:

a) nations where you paid men to fight
b) nations you built up militarily who give money and aid to men who fight

then to reduce terrorism, you can:

a) conquer nations where you paid men to fight (eliminating the Taliban and Afghanistan as a training ground and source of money)
b) conquer iraq (eliminating our creation - Saddam - and eliminating a source of weapons and money).

BTW, did you know that the primary source of weapons for the Palestinians was Iraq under Saddam?

They used to drop floating containers off the coast, and Palestinian swimmers would bring the weapons ashore.

Wonder why the Palestinians are so eager to negotiate now... maybe it's because their suicide bombers aren't being paid by Saddam, and they don't have a source of weapons anymore.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:00
That wasn't my quote, btw.

Who gives a f*ck what the UN or world think?

They're not the ones doing the dirty work of ousting dictators and freeing people.

THIS is NOBLE WORK.

perhaps the WORLD is just jealous that they CAN'T do what WE CAN DO.
1.) The problem is that the US does NOT care what the WORLD thinks. Exactly. This. Is. The. Problem. Got it?

2.) The US only do "dirty work" if it suits thier interest. Ousting Saddam was not primarily with the Iraqi's situaiton in mind, but rather the overexaggerated fear of Hussein having WMDs, which was not the case.

3.) Noble work is when the noble work is achieved without excessive bloodshed. The ends do not justify the means - always remember that.

4.) The world can do much more than the US, if it has to. But sometimes, doing nothing or doing things differently, has more effect than how the US does it. (btw I think at least in Darfur, the UN could have started acting earlier...)
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:01
Eutrusca, do people respect your service? Do you use the fact that you're a veteran to get stuff? ;)

This has got to be flaming.
I don't consider it flaming at all.

Perhaps a bit surprisingly, more respect my service now than ever did before.

I use the fact that I'm a veteran to get laid whenever possible. :D
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:02
Hmm, you're a liitle careful trusting English speaking news agencies? I'm a little mistrustful of the left wing propaganda sites you get your news from. I'd say that 11,752 reported right-wing extremist crimes, more than in any year since German reunification in 1990 is bordering on an epidemic. My point is with all of this however, is that you're failing to recognize that human rights abuses isn't an inherently American trait. You shouldn't be so quick to point the finger. I'd be more concerned about double digit unemployment and neo nazism in my own country than what the US is doing in Iraq. Of course, I'm not German
I'm equally concerned about these problems in my own country. Still I like bitching about the oh-so-great US who constantly proves that the opposite is the case :p
Zooke
04-04-2005, 17:02
Didnt you know Marine stands for My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment? I dont think the Navy'd appreciate the Marines treating them like chauffeurs and cooks...lol

My husband was a Marine for several years, and he loves to throw barbs at Eutrusca...and sailors. ;)
Frangland
04-04-2005, 17:02
Yah.

Nobody's saying that Iraqis, by and large, are terrorists.

There are Iraqi insurgents, of course, and there may be a few Iraqis who do take their jihad to foreign lands, but mostly I think these people are glad we're there... at least the 80% who aren't Sunnis (and hopefully at least some of the Sunnis).
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:04
I respect his service, as I do of that of all that have proudly worn the uniform of the United States.
Thank you.
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 17:06
It's bound to be a problem in a country where you forgot that Hitler declared war on the United States.


And made believe they werent aware of the efficient extermination of many,many people.
I wonder if the "rocket clubs" have started again? there seems to be an awful lot of pride in the fatherland. Yet, if an American feels any sort of pride, we are shunned (in here only) as flag waving, right wing, neocon, nascar dads, rednecks...etc. I'll take any of those over "Nazi" though. And I take things from where they come. I really dont care at all about some very small, very bitter, self serving yet self hating, little voices whispering out of their holes.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 17:06
Ein Deutscher']It's however irrelevant to the discussion. Just like the entire thread has long moved away from the original topic. Not that it matters much now hehe...

You shouldn't expect to go around making gross generalizations about US soldiers, and claiming they are all baby-killing genocidal monsters without expecting a little payback.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:06
Thank you.
This also includes those who torture and abuse their way through the world, proudly wearing the US uniform...
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:06
#1. Do they REALLY say, "Me love you long time"? (Vietnam veteran)
#2. What's that horn growing out of your head and why do you have tentacles? (Gulf War Veteran)
#3. How did they know Hussein was in that hole? (Iraq\Afghanistan war)
I can only answer the first one from personal experience, not the other two.

Yes, and they also said things like, "I love you too MUCH!" Heh!
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 17:07
Thank you.


No sir-Thank You. Words can be cheap, but I mean it.
Monkeypimp
04-04-2005, 17:08
Eutrusca: What exactly is your disability?
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 17:09
Ein Deutscher']I'm equally concerned about these problems in my own country. Still I like bitching about the oh-so-great US who constantly proves that the opposite is the case :p

And I like to bitch at the elitist Germans that can't solve their own human right abuses but continue to point the finger to take their minds off of the large population that's unemployed, reduction in Gross Domestic Product, as well as a general decline in tolerance. Let's start with German unemployment. I'll move to the others in a bit.

German unemployment hit a post-war high in March after cold weather deterred many firms from hiring workers.

The number of people out of work increased by 92,000 to 4.97 million, according to seasonally adjusted figures from the Federal Labour Office.

That pushed Germany's jobless rate to 12%, compared with about 5% in the UK and the US.

The non-seasonally adjusted figure stayed above the 5 million level, falling by 41,000 to 5.176 million.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:10
You shouldn't expect to go around making gross generalizations about US soldiers, and claiming they are all baby-killing genocidal monsters without expecting a little payback.
I never claimed they all are. However a considerable amount are and based on the cases that actually made it to the public, I have reason to believe that there are many more cases which do not make it to the public. In big organisations such as the US military, negative incidents, which are publicly known, usually are only the literal tip of the iceberg.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:11
Is it true that the Navy are the chauffeurs and cooks and the Army are the clean up crew for the Marines? That's what my other half says. :p
Tell him to kiss my airborne ass! ROFLMAO!
Zooke
04-04-2005, 17:13
Tell him to kiss my airborne ass! ROFLMAO!

I'll let you do that. I don't want to be in the middle when the hand grenades start flying.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:13
And I like to bitch at the elitist Germans that can't solve their own human right abuses but continue to point the finger to take their minds off of the large population that's unemployed, reduction in Gross Domestic Product, as well as a general decline in tolerance. Let's start with German unemployment. I'll move to the others in a bit.

German unemployment hit a post-war high in March after cold weather deterred many firms from hiring workers.

The number of people out of work increased by 92,000 to 4.97 million, according to seasonally adjusted figures from the Federal Labour Office.

That pushed Germany's jobless rate to 12%, compared with about 5% in the UK and the US.

The non-seasonally adjusted figure stayed above the 5 million level, falling by 41,000 to 5.176 million.
Quite a big problem, I agree. And probably the reason why there will be a revolt in our country within the next 5-10 years. It's not that the system is bad, but that it is grossly mismanaged and abused by those in power.
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 17:14
Ein Deutscher']This also includes those who torture and abuse their way through the world, proudly wearing the US uniform...

Those people are a very,very small minority. I forgot that you produced soldiers that were beyond reproach.
Werent they actually knights? Its really interesting the way the upper ranks of the SS party saw themselves.

Do you have the same trouble with the Bayer corporation that you do with the US? Surely the "experiments" they participated in with the nazis in concentration camps must upset you? maybe that was easier for you to swallow because it was, after all, for the greater good.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 17:17
Ein Deutscher']Quite a big problem, I agree. And probably the reason why there will be a revolt in our country within the next 5-10 years. It's not that the system is bad, but that it is grossly mismanaged and abused by those in power.

Great, lets move to your Gross Domestic Product (GDP)...

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005
Gross domestic product (GDP)1
(Change over previous year, %) 0.8 0.1 –0.1 1.8 1.5

not bad growth statistics if we're talking about North Korea. If I were you, I'd lead the revolt before it's too late.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 17:17
Ein Deutscher']I never claimed they all are. However a considerable amount are and based on the cases that actually made it to the public, I have reason to believe that there are many more cases which do not make it to the public. In big organisations such as the US military, negative incidents, which are publicly known, usually are only the literal tip of the iceberg.


Prove it. Having seen so many examples of good things going on there, and seeing the prosecution of those that have done bad things, I don't think you can say things like "considerable amount" or "tip of the iceberg" without proof.

Proof that you don't have.
Frangland
04-04-2005, 17:17
the Elite Teutonic Knight is the most powerful "special forces" unit in Age of Empires II.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:18
Those people are a very,very small minority. I forgot that you produced soldiers that were beyond reproach.
Werent they actually knights? Its really interesting the way the upper ranks of the SS party saw themselves.

Do you have the same trouble with the Bayer corporation that you do with the US? Surely the "experiments" they participated in with the nazis in concentration camps must upset you? maybe that was easier for you to swallow because it was, after all, for the greater good.
I didn't live during the Nazi dictatorship. Thank god. If I had, I'd probably have tried to change it, and ended up in a concentration camp myself. I could not do a thing about the nazis, thus, laying blame on me for what they did is entirely pointless. Nazi Germany ended 1945. Germany today is not responsible for what the nazis did.

I do live during the time now and see the US acting the way it does. I try to change it and do not end up in a concentration camp. Although Guantanamo Bay is pretty close to one and I probably could end up there if I did act to the full extent :p
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:20
Great, lets move to your Gross Domestic Product (GDP)...

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005
Gross domestic product (GDP)1
(Change over previous year, %) 0.8 0.1 –0.1 1.8 1.5

not bad growth statistics if we're talking about North Korea. If I were you, I'd lead the revolt before it's too late.
Nah, I'm unemployed, but pretty interested in politics. I'm not in a position to do anything about the current problems or to bring change to the system. I watch and see what happens, since I don't have all that much to lose.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:21
Ein Deutscher']I didn't forget it, however this war declaration was not why the US invaded. Maybe you should read my words before spewing forth your vitriol?
You are accusing someone else of being vitriolic? That just lost for you whatever small consideration I may have had left for what you post.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:22
Prove it. Having seen so many examples of good things going on there, and seeing the prosecution of those that have done bad things, I don't think you can say things like "considerable amount" or "tip of the iceberg" without proof.

Proof that you don't have.
I said I believe it. I can't prove it, since naturally, not everything makes it to the public. The amount that does make it to the public however, is a sign for me that there is more out there which is unknown to the world. I'm sure we will learn of more incidents during the next years and at the latest in 30 years or so, when the info is no longer classified.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:23
You are accusing someone else of being vitriolic? That just lost for you whatever small consideration I may have had left for what you post.
Not that i care that much. You didn't care much about my posts before, so your little confession doesn't surprise me.

Also, ad hominem attacks aren't making you any more credible either.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:25
Ooh! Ooh! I have a question!


What do you feel was the major motivation of the average soldier in Vietnam? Did it change from the beginning, to the middle to the end?

or any other war for that matter.
I think one of the biggest mistakes the US made in Vietnam was the "one-year tour." All this accomplished was to make some soldiers try to hunker down and survive for 12 months. Most of those I knew while I was there were at first motivated by a sincere desire to stop the spread of communism. Later, the primary motivation usually became the same as it does for the average soldier in almost all wars: to protect your friends.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 17:27
Ein Deutscher']Nah, I'm unemployed, but pretty interested in politics. I'm not in a position to do anything about the current problems or to bring change to the system. I watch and see what happens, since I don't have all that much to lose.

Ah, you're part of the 12%...Kinda figures. Let's talk about German intolerance...

British Delegation Finds Germany a Hotbed of Arrogance and Prejudice

A
delegation of British human rights leaders, recently returned from Germany has reported finding a volume of official arrogance and politically-endorsed intolerance that was both “astonishing” and “perplexing.”

The five-man committee—two members of the House of Lords, accompanied by professors of philosophy and sociology and a religious scholar—say they were astonished by the stark contrast between what they personally observed and the blunt German denial of the same facts.

Despite clear evidence gained throughout the tour of widespread violations of international human rights agreements to which Germany is a signatory, officials interviewed by the delegation all maintained that there was “no discrimination” in Germany.

And they say they were perplexed because no one, not even the German officials with whom they spoke, was able to explain why such disruptive social conditions are not only not addressed, but are actually fostered from within Germany’s major political parties.
Markreich
04-04-2005, 17:28
Ah, you're part of the 12%...Kinda figures. Let's talk about German intolerance...

British Delegation Finds Germany a Hotbed of Arrogance and Prejudice

A
delegation of British human rights leaders, recently returned from Germany has reported finding a volume of official arrogance and politically-endorsed intolerance that was both “astonishing” and “perplexing.”

The five-man committee—two members of the House of Lords, accompanied by professors of philosophy and sociology and a religious scholar—say they were astonished by the stark contrast between what they personally observed and the blunt German denial of the same facts.

Despite clear evidence gained throughout the tour of widespread violations of international human rights agreements to which Germany is a signatory, officials interviewed by the delegation all maintained that there was “no discrimination” in Germany.

And they say they were perplexed because no one, not even the German officials with whom they spoke, was able to explain why such disruptive social conditions are not only not addressed, but are actually fostered from within Germany’s major political parties.


Goes to show what happens when you hang out with France all the time. ;)
Frangland
04-04-2005, 17:30
well when your average worker gets about 35-40 (or something in that neighborhood, as I saw a stat for Germany's workers) days of paid vacation per year... companies are paying a lot for relatively little work.

counter-productivity

meanwhile, you're taxing the hell out of the rich and middle class.

these are two negatives on the economy (a third the high unemployment of 13% or whatever) that need to be addressed.

I mean i'm not saying that workers need to work every day of the year, but maybe knocking vacation time down to something reasonable like 2-3 weeks would be a start in the right direction to make your work force more productive.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:31
Errr.. this doesn't actually list anything. Care to list those human rights violations? But I agree, there's still some discrimination going on. Also of gays to some degree, although we are allowed to form civil unions here - contrary to the US. I think the discriminations and - if they exist - human rights violations, are not serious and numerous enough to consider them a problem.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:31
Eutrusca: What exactly is your disability?
I shattered my right femur, an injury which often kills those my age at the time ( 53 ), and broke my right foot in several places. I now have about 2 lbs of metal holding my right femur together and walk with a slight limp. I also lost part of the vision in my right eye as a result of being under anesthesia for so long during the two operations I had. The entire operation had to be redone because the heads of the screws holding the metal applicance to my femur all sheared off duing a visit to watch my younger son graduate from college.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:32
I'll let you do that. I don't want to be in the middle when the hand grenades start flying.
No greandes, just verbal jocularity. :)
Markreich
04-04-2005, 17:33
Ein Deutscher']I didn't live during the Nazi dictatorship. Thank god. If I had, I'd probably have tried to change it, and ended up in a concentration camp myself. I could not do a thing about the nazis, thus, laying blame on me for what they did is entirely pointless. Nazi Germany ended 1945. Germany today is not responsible for what the nazis did.


Germany is absolutely responsible. It paid in being occupied until re-unification, but that will never wipe the slate clean. Same way the US will never be able to pay back for the Trail of Tears or the Japanese for The Rape of Nanking.

Ein Deutscher']I do live during the time now and see the US acting the way it does. I try to change it and do not end up in a concentration camp. Although Guantanamo Bay is pretty close to one and I probably could end up there if I did act to the full extent :p

GitMo = training camp the same way McDonalds equals four star meal. :rolleyes: Please show me the ovens in GitMo. Or the labour camps to build our rockets. Please.
Monkeypimp
04-04-2005, 17:34
I shattered my right femur, an injury which often kills those my age at the time ( 53 ), and broke my right foot in several places. I now have about 2 lbs of metal holding my right femur together and walk with a slight limp. I also lost part of the vision in my right eye as a result of being under anesthesia for so long during the two operations I had. The entire operation had to be redone because the heads of the screws holding the metal applicance to my femur all sheared off duing a visit to watch my younger son graduate from college.

Slip in the shower? Saved 50 children from a burning bus and fell over on the way out? Someone hit you with a hammer? You woke up and it was like that? 'Chute fail to open? (you were airborne, right?)
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 17:35
Ein Deutscher']Nah, I'm unemployed, but pretty interested in politics. I'm not in a position to do anything about the current problems or to bring change to the system. I watch and see what happens, since I don't have all that much to lose.

If you're unemployed, you could always join the Army.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:35
well when your average worker gets about 35-40 (or something in that neighborhood, as I saw a stat for Germany's workers) days of paid vacation per year... companies are paying a lot for relatively little work.

counter-productivity

meanwhile, you're taxing the hell out of the rich and middle class.

these are two negatives on the economy (a third the high unemployment of 13% or whatever) that need to be addressed.

I mean i'm not saying that workers need to work every day of the year, but maybe knocking vacation time down to something reasonable like 2-3 weeks would be a start in the right direction to make your work force more productive.
Vacation time is not 35-40 days per year for the average worker. Most firms can't afford so much vacation for their employees.

Secondly, Germany is a tax paradise for the rich. In fact, Germany has the lowest taxes for rich people in Europe (if I remember correctly). This is part of the problem actually, since rich people just make more money with what they already have, but do not create more jobs with it. The same goes for large corporations who pay little to no taxes. They cut jobs and make huge profits year after year. Unemployment rises due to the lack of social responsibility by many firms and especially corporations. Another factor is the mismanagement of the taxes. A lot of money is being thrown out of the window for nothing. The social security system works quite fine as it is and it is reportedly sustainable with our resources, if they would be spent more carefully.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:36
the Elite Teutonic Knight is the most powerful "special forces" unit in Age of Empires II.
I bet my Elite Viking Beserkers can kick your Elite Teutonic Knights collective ass any time! :D
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:36
If you're unemployed, you could always join the Army.
I've been in the Army.
Whispering Legs
04-04-2005, 17:37
Ein Deutscher']I've been in the Army.

Why didn't you stay?
Nikoko
04-04-2005, 17:37
Or you could vote, maybe join an Activist or Lobby group.

I, Politics guy, give a shout out to all our Military guys.

We liberals may seem like we hate America, etc etc, but we thank you for defending our country, and grudgingly admit that there is alot of good things being done in Iraq.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:38
Ein Deutscher']Not that i care that much. You didn't care much about my posts before, so your little confession doesn't surprise me.

Also, ad hominem attacks aren't making you any more credible either.
( shrug ) So sue me.
Markreich
04-04-2005, 17:41
I bet my Elite Viking Beserkers can kick your Elite Teutonic Knights collective ass any time! :D

Bah. The Byzantine Priests will convert you both before you even see them. :D
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 17:41
Ein Deutscher']Errr.. this doesn't actually list anything. Care to list those human rights violations? But I agree, there's still some discrimination going on. Also of gays to some degree, although we are allowed to form civil unions here - contrary to the US. I think the discriminations and - if they exist - human rights violations, are not serious and numerous enough to consider them a problem.

Violations, just search the web. I'm sure you have the time...Let's move on over to your failed cradle to grave welfare system. I'm assuming your a statistic in this since you have no job.

Another Example of Failure

Chancellor Gerhard Schröder issued a veiled threat yesterday to resign if his party refuses to back his "Agenda 2010" package of reforms, intended to slim down the welfare state and give desperately needed impetus to the German economy.
He launched the agenda in March, trumpeting the measures it contains as crucial to bring the economy under control and reduce the crippling employment costs which have destroyed Germany's reputation for economic management.
But although it has been criticised by business leaders and analysts as being only the beginning of what the German economy needs to get back on its feet, it has infuriated the Left, which describes it as a move away from social justice.
The measures include reducing the amount and duration of unemployment payments as well as easing the rules on letting workers go.
It is also being seriously suggested that the retirement age for men should be raised to 67.
The German economy shows no sign of pulling out of its malaise, with further poor figures released yesterday. The economics minister, Wolfgang Clement, revised predicted growth for this year down from one per cent to 0.75 per cent.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:42
Germany is absolutely responsible. It paid in being occupied until re-unification, but that will never wipe the slate clean. Same way the US will never be able to pay back for the Trail of Tears or the Japanese for The Rape of Nanking.



GitMo = training camp the same way McDonalds equals four star meal. :rolleyes: Please show me the ovens in GitMo. Or the labour camps to build our rockets. Please.
Germany paid with money and loss of territory. Nazi Germany ended 1945. Today's Germany is not responsible for what the nazi dictatorship did just like the Iraqis are not responsible for what Hussein did or the Russians for what Stalin did or the North Koreans for what Kim Jong Il did, etc. They were "prisoners" of the system - I can't really blame them, much like the US Americans are also prisoners of their system and blinded to what's going on outside of their own borders. In fact, you might aswell stop your accusations of WW2 things, since I was not responsible for them and your hatred against me is visible, but unjustified.

Gunatanamo Bay is quite close to a concentration camp. The prisoners are not being cremated just yet. I'll give it a few more years until the US will come up with their own original system of mass murder and torture in the name of fighting terrorism.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:42
Slip in the shower? Saved 50 children from a burning bus and fell over on the way out? Someone hit you with a hammer? You woke up and it was like that? 'Chute fail to open? (you were airborne, right?)
I wish it had been something that simple or that noble. It was a clear day, very little wind, and a great jump ... right up to the point where I lost about 1/3 of the air in my 'chute and dropped like a stone ( comparatively speaking ). I was about 20' AGL ( Above Ground Level ) at the time and promptly forgot all my training, tensed up and hit with most of the force on my right leg because I landed on a small rise in the ground.

It hurt a bit.
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 17:43
Or you could vote, maybe join an Activist or Lobby group.

I, Politics guy, give a shout out to all our Military guys.

We liberals may seem like we hate America, etc etc, but we thank you for defending our country, and grudgingly admit that there is alot of good things being done in Iraq.


Thats a breath of fresh air. I dont hold you being a liberal and having different views than I do against you. We can agree that we love our country and respect the people in our military. All give some, some give all. If people arent serving in the military, the very LEAST they should do is respect those that have served or are serving.
And "F" the ones that dont.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 17:43
Why didn't you stay?

He lives in Germany. Why work when you can stay home and get paid for it?
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:44
Violations, just search the web. I'm sure you have the time...Let's move on over to your failed cradle to grave welfare system. I'm assuming your a statistic in this since you have no job.

Another Example of Failure

Chancellor Gerhard Schröder issued a veiled threat yesterday to resign if his party refuses to back his "Agenda 2010" package of reforms, intended to slim down the welfare state and give desperately needed impetus to the German economy.
He launched the agenda in March, trumpeting the measures it contains as crucial to bring the economy under control and reduce the crippling employment costs which have destroyed Germany's reputation for economic management.
But although it has been criticised by business leaders and analysts as being only the beginning of what the German economy needs to get back on its feet, it has infuriated the Left, which describes it as a move away from social justice.
The measures include reducing the amount and duration of unemployment payments as well as easing the rules on letting workers go.
It is also being seriously suggested that the retirement age for men should be raised to 67.
The German economy shows no sign of pulling out of its malaise, with further poor figures released yesterday. The economics minister, Wolfgang Clement, revised predicted growth for this year down from one per cent to 0.75 per cent.
Our government is an example of failure. No agument there. I'd love to see them crash and burn, just like pretty much all other politicians in our country, since most of them are fat, corrupt slobs who don't give a shit what the people need, once they were "elected" or appointed into their offices.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:45
Why didn't you stay?
I was in the military before college and it was not so exciting to go back to it. I was released due to medical problems after serving my regular time as a "conscript".
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:46
Or you could vote, maybe join an Activist or Lobby group.

I, Politics guy, give a shout out to all our Military guys.

We liberals may seem like we hate America, etc etc, but we thank you for defending our country, and grudgingly admit that there is alot of good things being done in Iraq.
Thank you so much for saying that. Many times I get the impression that some on here allow their dislike of things military to translate into hatred of the soldier. Rather like shooting the messenger because you don't like the message.
Hornungtopia
04-04-2005, 17:47
Did the 19,616 civilians killed by America in Iraq ever hit you, in any way?

Source (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/)


Because we all know that every day, U.S. soldiers get up, brush their teeth, get in uniform, and go out with murderous intentions to throw babies in the air and spit them on their combat knives, am i rite dood?

I'll be frank. Veterans and current soldiers are some of the last people of this earth that I have respect for. They put their life on the line for their country, and should be respected for it. It's not their fault that greedy politicians send them out to war on a whim, or a bullet ricochets off a wall and hits an innocent bystander.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 17:47
Bah. The Byzantine Priests will convert you both before you even see them. :D
Not if I can get to the "technology" of having my Vikings die rather than be converted! :D
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 17:49
Ein Deutscher']
Gunatanamo Bay is quite close to a concentration camp. The prisoners are not being cremated just yet. I'll give it a few more years until the US will come up with their own original system of mass murder and torture in the name of fighting terrorism.

Nah-you're unemployment is likely the source of your bitterness. being inviable and impotent-thats whats got you down. And its likely that some US policy caused you to be unemployed. Its sucks, cant blame you.

Your statement about Guantanamo ranks up there in the top most moronic things you've ever posted. We dont need to mass murder or torture anyone-we are on top in all respects and when we arent, we dont look to blame another race.
I'll give it a few more years and maybe you'll come up with a job and a family and maybe a shred of self worth.
Frangland
04-04-2005, 17:49
Ein Deutscher']Vacation time is not 35-40 days per year for the average worker. Most firms can't afford so much vacation for their employees.

Secondly, Germany is a tax paradise for the rich. In fact, Germany has the lowest taxes for rich people in Europe (if I remember correctly). This is part of the problem actually, since rich people just make more money with what they already have, but do not create more jobs with it. The same goes for large corporations who pay little to no taxes. They cut jobs and make huge profits year after year. Unemployment rises due to the lack of social responsibility by many firms and especially corporations. Another factor is the mismanagement of the taxes. A lot of money is being thrown out of the window for nothing. The social security system works quite fine as it is and it is reportedly sustainable with our resources, if they would be spent more carefully.

that's the kicker: if the rich are not using their money to help people -- eg, create jobs, invest in companies, buy stuff, etc. -- then there's an economic conundrum (love that word. hehe).
Markreich
04-04-2005, 17:52
Ein Deutscher']Germany paid with money and loss of territory. Nazi Germany ended 1945. Today's Germany is not responsible for what the nazi dictatorship did just like the Iraqis are not responsible for what Hussein did or the Russians for what Stalin did or the North Koreans for what Kim Jong Il did, etc.

So are you insinuating, that if the US changed governments that it'd be clear of everything it's ever done? Excellent!
We change governments every 4 years (first change: 1793!), called an election. By your own logic, you may now only blame us for things that have happened since 2004.

Ein Deutscher']They were "prisoners" of the system - I can't really blame them, much like the US Americans are also prisoners of their system and blinded to what's going on outside of their own borders. In fact, you might aswell stop your accusations of WW2 things, since I was not responsible for them and your hatred against me is visible, but unjustified.

In prior threads, you felt the US's actions against the Native Americans in the pre-WW1 era were admissable. Which is it?

I don't hate you, ED. Never have. But I find your purpetual assaults on America and all things American to be not only misleading, but also insulting.

Ein Deutscher']Gunatanamo Bay is quite close to a concentration camp. The prisoners are not being cremated just yet. I'll give it a few more years until the US will come up with their own original system of mass murder and torture in the name of fighting terrorism.

See, that's the sort of crap that makes me give you less credibility as Dan Rather. Buddy, I've BEEN to Aushwitz. You're talking out of your ass.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 17:53
Nah-you're unemployment is likely the source of your bitterness. being inviable and impotent-thats whats got you down. And its likely that some US policy caused you to be unemployed. Its sucks, cant blame you.

Your statement about Guantanamo ranks up there in the top most moronic things you've ever posted. We dont need to mass murder or torture anyone-we are on top in all respects and when we arent, we dont look to blame another race.
I'll give it a few more years and maybe you'll come up with a job and a family and maybe a shred of self worth.
I'm not bitter about my unemployment. I can live with it until the situation gets better, which should happen sometime soon, since it can't become much worse :p Besides my vote, I'm impotent, thats true. But so is pretty much every other average joe in a "democracy". The US are not directly responsible for this, however the weak dollar is quite bad for our economy + many firms are part of US corporations who practice the profit maximization by firing employees even if it's unnecessary and moving the jobs "overseas". I think the same problem exists in the US, since firms only think about making most profit without any responsibility for their employees.

Regarding family and self-worth. I doubt you are qualified to judge any of this and I already have a family, thank you.
Markreich
04-04-2005, 17:56
Not if I can get to the "technology" of having my Vikings die rather than be converted! :D

Must... keep... E's... villagers...from...gold... ;)
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 17:57
Ein Deutscher']Our government is an example of failure. No agument there. I'd love to see them crash and burn, just like pretty much all other politicians in our country, since most of them are fat, corrupt slobs who don't give a shit what the people need, once they were "elected" or appointed into their offices.

And my point is with so many monumental problems in Germany, how do you have time to sit on your unemployed ass and criticize the US? Shouldn't you be out trying to change things in your own country instead of complaining about something you can't solve?
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 18:02
And my point is with so many monumental problems in Germany, how do you have time to sit on your unemployed ass and criticize the US? Shouldn't you be out trying to change things in your own country instead of complaining about something you can't solve?
I'm unemployed and thus have plenty time and I bitch about whatever I want. The US are just a neat target since they're so obvious and easy to pick on :)
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 18:02
Ein Deutscher']I'm not bitter about my unemployment. I can live with it until the situation gets better, which should happen sometime soon, since it can't become much worse :p Besides my vote, I'm impotent, thats true. But so is pretty much every other average joe in a "democracy". The US are not directly responsible for this, however the weak dollar is quite bad for our economy + many firms are part of US corporations who practice the profit maximization by firing employees even if it's unnecessary and moving the jobs "overseas". I think the same problem exists in the US, since firms only think about making most profit without any responsibility for their employees.

Regarding family and self-worth. I doubt you are qualified to judge any of this and I already have a family, thank you.

You're seething with bitterness. And I'm sorry I'm oppressing you.
I'm more than qualified to make several judgements and observations about you- your constant biased remarks demand it. And they are reciprocal in your judgements of people I have things in common with.
Nikoko
04-04-2005, 18:03
Anyone know if there is a website that gives both the postive/negative news coming from Iraq? The reason I ask is because a Abu Ghaudid (sp?) national guardsmen and prison guard brought back some amazing photos and stories about all the good that is being done in Iraq. Increased jobs, freedom, university enrollment... etc. etc. It's simply amazing what the media dosen't cover. (And in the bigger scheme of things, a complete lack of coverage on Saudi Arabia's anti-terrorism campaign.)

I wish that would get some coverage but you can't deny sometimes soldiers act like asshats either (like for example those tankers who drove over the car of a taxi driver because he was stealing wood from a construction site, especially because if those kids had done the same in America all they would have gotten would have been probaton. They destroyed his only way of making money and feeding his family but I'm getting off track...) Thats because soldiers are only human.


I wish there was a website or media organization that tells both sides of the story... hrm...

I think they had a word for it a loooonnnggg time ago...

hrm...

bi... biippa.... bipartial!

Sadly, I believe this has become extinct in our media, who seek only sensationalist news that supports network interests. Sure, no one can be completely bi-partial but the way things are now it's ridiculous.

I'm half tempted to start my own Iraqi Newsite, with interviews by email and/or phone from servicemen who have actually been in Iraq. Maybe even try to get some coorospondance from Iraqi civilians.

I believe the media has completely failed us, so has the left/right.

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

When you have the power to change an injustice, you have a responsibility to exercise that power for the greater good. Maybe a coalition of servicemen and civil rights organizations, an agreement of the left/right/liberal/conservatives to work together for the common good is in order.

But that's just me. I don't think anyone would really be interested in such things.
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 18:04
And my point is with so many monumental problems in Germany, how do you have time to sit on your unemployed ass and criticize the US? Shouldn't you be out trying to change things in your own country instead of complaining about something you can't solve?


No-you certainly cannot be proactive when you feel so impotent. The only alternative is to go back to school for a few more pointless semesters. Or join a gang. But in germany, the results will likely be the same.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 18:05
You're seething with bitterness. And I'm sorry I'm oppressing you.
I'm more than qualified to make several judgements and observations about you- your constant biased remarks demand it. And they are reciprocal in your judgements of people I have things in common with.
Welcome on my ignore list then. Mr. Freud.
Zaxon
04-04-2005, 18:07
If I don't have an answer for you, one of two things is true:

1. I'll find the answer for you, or...

2. Your question is stupid! :D

Not a question, but....

Thanks to all who have served this country, putting their lives on hold, sacrificing time, effort, and more to keep myself and those I care about safe.
Nikoko
04-04-2005, 18:08
Quick addition to all the lets continue to punish Germany asshats.

When the generation who commited such acts dies out and is replaced by several new generations, it's not the same country, period.

Stop trying to spark new conflict. Don't you have anything better to do then say "blah blah blah they were Nazis?" Geez, look at Japan, the rape of Nanking, now look at how much the western world relies of Japanese Technologies.

Let it go, seriously. Learn from history, don't dig it up so you have something to bitch about.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 18:08
Must... keep... E's... villagers...from...gold... ;)
Heh! Heh! Heh! [ laughs evilly ] Yah, ve haf vays of getting your gold, yes? :D
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 18:11
Ein Deutscher']I'm unemployed and thus have plenty time and I bitch about whatever I want. The US are just a neat target since they're so obvious and easy to pick on :)

So you really are part of the problem in Germany then. Instead of looking for a job or trying to change things, you sit on your ass all day and point the finger. Your hypocrisy truly has no bounds.
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 18:13
So you really are part of the problem in Germany then. Instead of looking for a job or trying to change things, you sit on your ass all day and point the finger. Your hypocrisy truly has no bounds.
I am looking for a job every day. Alas I live in the East of Germany and the job situation here is pretty bad. You don't know me personally, so please refrain from such personal judgements which you have no clue about.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 18:15
Ein Deutscher']I am looking for a job every day. Alas I live in the East of Germany and the job situation here is pretty bad. You don't know me personally, so please refrain from such personal judgements which you have no clue about.

Your passing judgement on me and my country. Why shouldn't I pass judgement on you and yours?
Carnivorous Lickers
04-04-2005, 18:15
Ein Deutscher']Welcome on my ignore list then. Mr. Freud.


I'll consider truly being on that list an honor. Dont call me Freud though. He too had impotentcy issues.
Dobbs Town
04-04-2005, 18:17
Does killing people give you an erection?
[NS]Ein Deutscher
04-04-2005, 18:19
Your passing judgement on me and my country. Why shouldn't I pass judgement on you and yours?
1.) It's irrelevant to the thread and I'm not passing judgement on you.
2.) You don't know me and my situtation or the situation in Germany to make this judgement
3.) I'm quite well informed about the US and what's going on in Iraq and elsewhere. The news coverage of this is quite comprehensive when it comes to US things. I think I can make a judgement in this specific case better than you can make one about me.
Nikoko
04-04-2005, 18:21
Dobbs Town, does being a complete dolt in every sense of the word give you an erection?

Seriously, you discredit your own beliefs with your actions and I for one do not appreciate it.
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 18:23
Does killing people give you an erection?
It does me! I often have an orgasm just from slaughtering people. Why do you think I stayed in the military for so long? :D
Garnatopia
04-04-2005, 18:24
What did it feel like fighting for something you really didn't understand.
What did it feel like spending time from your family to kill.
What did it feel like living a lie.
Big Scoob
04-04-2005, 18:29
Ein Deutscher']1.) It's irrelevant to the thread and I'm not passing judgement on you.
2.) You don't know me and my situtation or the situation in Germany to make this judgement
3.) I'm quite well informed about the US and what's going on in Iraq and elsewhere. The news coverage of this is quite comprehensive when it comes to US things. I think I can make a judgement in this specific case better than you can make one about me.

1. You mentioned earlier that you like the direction of the thread

2. You don't know my situation in America to make your judgement.

3. I'm quite more well informed about my country over an unemployed East German, thanks
Markreich
04-04-2005, 18:29
Quick addition to all the lets continue to punish Germany asshats.

When the generation who commited such acts dies out and is replaced by several new generations, it's not the same country, period.

Stop trying to spark new conflict. Don't you have anything better to do then say "blah blah blah they were Nazis?" Geez, look at Japan, the rape of Nanking, now look at how much the western world relies of Japanese Technologies.

Let it go, seriously. Learn from history, don't dig it up so you have something to bitch about.

I agree with you. Unfortuantely, when certain folks start comparing the US to Nazi Germany (as in, being the same), I take umbrage.
Dobbs Town
04-04-2005, 18:30
Dobbs Town, does being a complete dolt in every sense of the word give you an erection?

Seriously, you discredit your own beliefs with your actions and I for one do not appreciate it.

How did my question for Eutrusca "discredit (my) own beliefs"? I am strongly opposed to anybody shooting other human beings, for whatever reason. My question, then, was in line with my beliefs.

Perhaps you know more of my beliefs than I? I'll be glad to hear from you what my beliefs are, so as to avoid making similar mistakes in future.
The Arch Wobbly
04-04-2005, 18:30
Does it make you angry, or upset, when you have to put up with ungrateful little shits?

I'm not from the US but, thank you. :)
Cognative Superios
04-04-2005, 18:33
Not sure about you but I don't want my military to be Angelic. Their job is to fight and win wars. They're doing a fine job in my opinion.


I don't know one of those angelic hoards would be kinda nice right now, unkillable beings that make the most hardened men wet themselves... thats what I call an army. :p
Eutrusca
04-04-2005, 19:36
Does it make you angry, or upset, when you have to put up with ungrateful little shits?

I'm not from the US but, thank you. :)
You're very, very welcome. I'd gladly re-enlist if they would let me. :(

I use to get mad. Now I just get a bit sad.
Keruvalia
04-04-2005, 20:14
We liberals may seem like we hate America, etc etc, but we thank you for defending our country, and grudgingly admit that there is alot of good things being done in Iraq.

Heh ... well ... s'ok to admit that. I'm one of the most liberal people on the planet - I make Ghandi look like Dick Cheney - and I still served in the Army during Operation Desert Shield/Storm. Liberals can be Soldiers, too. :D
Big Scoob
05-04-2005, 01:14
Ein Deutscher']I am looking for a job every day. Alas I live in the East of Germany and the job situation here is pretty bad. You don't know me personally, so please refrain from such personal judgements which you have no clue about.

One judgement I will pass about you. You're English is quite good, much better than my German.
Keruvalia
05-04-2005, 02:42
One judgement I will pass about you. You're English is quite good, much better than my German.


*tee hee*
[NS]Ein Deutscher
05-04-2005, 06:52
One judgement I will pass about you. You're English is quite good, much better than my German.
That's because I deal with arrogant Americans on the net every day. It's good training if I have to debate endlessly and look for stuff to back up my claims :p
Eichen
05-04-2005, 07:00
If I don't have an answer for you, one of two things is true:

1. I'll find the answer for you, or...

2. Your question is stupid! :D
Hey Pappy. :)
I have some questions I know you can answer better than anyone elose here (and no, I'm not being a smartass, unlike unruly Sancta :p ):

How'd you keep the balls when things really got rough ? During the times when you knew hell couldn't be any worse than even a Baptists description...

What kept you going (as a motivated soldier)?

Why did you risk death for others (born, and unborn), during ugly situations?

Would you ask your children/grandchildren to do the same/
Damaica
05-04-2005, 12:02
Hey soldier, where are you in Korea? I finished EOBC last September and a large majority of my class went to Korea

Logged before I got to your question. I was stationed in Daegu for 18 months, and now I'm in Pyeongtaek.
Big Scoob
05-04-2005, 15:09
Logged before I got to your question. I was stationed in Daegu for 18 months, and now I'm in Pyeongtaek.

What's your MOS?
Damaica
06-04-2005, 09:50
What's your MOS?

In transition at the moment. Although I enlisted as a 71L (paper pusher) which is now 42L, I wanted to be in Information Tech. field, which wasn't available. I'm also serving in a maintenance battalion, which is fun, so I'm deciding between reclassification into Special Forces (Weapons SGT) or IT.

At the moment, I'm an office junkie, working the leaves and finance for the battalion. About 500 people depend on me for going home or getting paid. ^^