NationStates Jolt Archive

I've often asked Christian friends and peers why their God would allow humans to do evil to each other, seeing as how so much injustice comes from these actions, and they have all told me the same basic thing: God allows us free will, and free will means having the ability to know evil (as well as good) and the responsibility to choose for ourselves. Okay, I got that. But here's what I don't get...

According to the Bible, Adam and Eve did NOT know good and evil when they were first playing around in the Garden. Humans were created innocent, and only gained the knowledge of good and evil through direct defiance of God when they ate from the forbidden Tree.

So if free will requires knowledge of good and evil, and the ability to do good or evil, then Adam and Eve could not have had free will until AFTER they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore, their actions were not free, and God's subsequent punishment of them (and the rest of all humanity) seems very unjust.

On the other hand, if Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat the Apple, then free will clearly does not require knowledge of or ability for evil because they had neither until after they ate the apple. In that case, why does God allow evil at all? If evil is not necessary for our free will, then why have it?

So which is it? Is knowledge of evil necessary for free will? If so, and if God wants humans to have free will, then why were Adam and Eve forbidden to take the necessary step to acquire free will, and why were they punished for acheiving it? If God did not desire humans to have free will, why do we have it? And should we try to get rid of it?

also what is the point of free will in judeochristian cosmology? as far as i can tell, its only purpose is to cause misery and sin. without free will man would perfectly follow god's will and live in harmony with him, all free will does is create the ineviability that that won't infact happen.

You're not accepting the Bible at face value? Pardon the expression, but hallejulah (note user name)!

What I have sadly noticed is that there are many, many people who want you to think as they do. It seems there is an apt analogy here: "You have the free will to do what I tell you to do." That works for the Bible, too.

I've often asked Christian friends and peers why their God would allow humans to do evil to each other, seeing as how so much injustice comes from these actions, and they have all told me the same basic thing: God allows us free will, and free will means having the ability to know evil (as well as good) and the responsibility to choose for ourselves. Okay, I got that. But here's what I don't get...

According to the Bible, Adam and Eve did NOT know good and evil when they were first playing around in the Garden. Humans were created innocent, and only gained the knowledge of good and evil through direct defiance of God when they ate from the forbidden Tree.

So if free will requires knowledge of good and evil, and the ability to do good or evil, then Adam and Eve could not have had free will until AFTER they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore, their actions were not free, and God's subsequent punishment of them (and the rest of all humanity) seems very unjust.

On the other hand, if Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat the Apple, then free will clearly does not require knowledge of or ability for evil because they had neither until after they ate the apple. In that case, why does God allow evil at all? If evil is not necessary for our free will, then why have it?

So which is it? Is knowledge of evil necessary for free will? If so, and if God wants humans to have free will, then why were Adam and Eve forbidden to take the necessary step to acquire free will, and why were they punished for acheiving it? If God did not desire humans to have free will, why do we have it? And should we try to get rid of it?
Veary good question and it's personaly one of my biggest stiking points when it comes to Christianity. Furthermore could we not ask why free will is always ascociated with free action, seeing as we don not have free action but are bound by the laws of nature, which if God made nature were put in place by God. And if our actions can be bound in that manner and still allow us free will, could not our actions also be bound to prevent us from taking immorral actions while still allowing us to have free will?

also what is the point of free will in judeochristian cosmology? as far as i can tell, its only purpose is to cause misery and sin. without free will man would perfectly follow god's will and live in harmony with him, all free will does is create the ineviability that that won't infact happen.
well, i can understand their theory that God wants humans to have the choice between good and evil, and that He wants human morality to be more than robotic obedience. that's an interesting theory, but it seems to be directly contradicted by their own Creation myth. hence my confusion.

Veary good question and it's personaly one of my biggest stiking points when it comes to Christianity. Furthermore could we not ask why free will is always ascociated with free action, seeing as we don not have free action but are bound by the laws of nature, which if God made nature were put in place by God. And if our actions can be bound in that manner and still allow us free will, could not our actions also be bound to prevent us from taking immorral actions while still allowing us to have free will?
exactly. i've raised this point in the past: i am not (yet) able to kill a man with lazer beams from my eyes, but i am told that i have free will...why, then, could God not make humans equally unable to kill each other with hands or tools?

This is off-topic, but... Whenever I look at this thread, for some reason I see "Baffled by the Garden Myrth".

This is off-topic, but... Whenever I look at this thread, for some reason I see "Baffled by the Garden Myrth".
great, now i've got a mental image of Myrth capering about wearing nothing but a fig leaf...

i was going to point out that the story of the garden of eden is a simple allegory explaining why the world sucks but to go along with your "bafflement" ....

how about this

when EVE ate the apple, she knew right then and there what good and evil are. SHE had free will eh? so when she gave adam the apple she CHOSE EVIL (acting against the will of god is the definition of evil) and that is what doomed us to the imperfect life outside the garden

we all suffer from the sin of EVE and as eve's children we all share in her punishment.

great, now i've got a mental image of Myrth capering about wearing nothing but a fig leaf...

Damnit man, now you've got me thinking that...

Free will does not mean knowing the difference between good and evil. Free will means independent thought. The reason that God allows suffering is because in order to stop it, he would have to affect people's lives - change what happens to stop it - and that breaks free will. He merely intended us to use our knowledge of good and evil to make wise decisions...which we often don't do. That knowledge of what is good and what is evil came from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, hence Adam and Eve story.

exactly. i've raised this point in the past: i am not (yet) able to kill a man with lazer beams from my eyes, but i am told that i have free will...why, then, could God not make humans equally unable to kill each other with hands or tools?

Because in order to do that, he would have had to give us limbs which were basically incapable of doing anything practical. Eyes can see well and good, but they can't touch anything. It is the limbs used for touching which can harm people, and you can kill someone if you really try with just about any limb.

i was going to point out that the story of the garden of eden is a simple allegory explaining why the world sucks but to go along with your "bafflement" ....

how about this

when EVE ate the apple, she knew right then and there what good and evil are. SHE had free will eh? so when she gave adam the apple she CHOSE EVIL (acting against the will of god is the definition of evil) and that is what doomed us to the imperfect life outside the garden

we all suffer from the sin of EVE and as eve's children we all share in her punishment.
hmm...but, in that case, why punish Adam? he didn't know any better, so why not just kick out Eve? it seems cruel to punish Adam even though he could not possibly have acted differently than he did (seeing as how he still would not have had free will at the time).

well, i can understand their theory that God wants humans to have the choice between good and evil, and that He wants human morality to be more than robotic obedience. that's an interesting theory, but it seems to be directly contradicted by their own Creation myth. hence my confusion.

but robotic obediance is still ultimately what is desired, just such obediance while always walking a tightrope of possible failure. free will has no possitive outcome within the judeochristian model, it can not make you more holy than its lack only less so. it is a cruel joke from a sadistic creator, if there is sin and punishment.

Because in order to do that, he would have had to give us limbs which were basically incapable of doing anything practical. Eyes can see well and good, but they can't touch anything. It is the limbs used for touching which can harm people, and you can kill someone if you really try with just about any limb.God could very easily have made some kind of mental inhibition against such acts...for instance, He could have designed us so that we could experience any pain we dealt to another human being in cruelty. He could have made us become violently sick if we attempted to harm another human, disabling us if we tried to commit a hurtful act.

Free will does not mean knowing the difference between good and evil. Free will means independent thought. The reason that God allows suffering is because in order to stop it, he would have to affect people's lives - change what happens to stop it - and that breaks free will.

right. that's what i said above: God allows us to do evil because stopping it would violate free will...but that still leaves my original question.

He merely intended us to use our knowledge of good and evil to make wise decisions...which we often don't do. That knowledge of what is good and what is evil came from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, hence Adam and Eve story.
if He wanted us to use our knowledge of good and evil to make wise decisions, why did He forbid Adam and Eve to eat the apple? why did he punish them for doing so, since it was the means to obtain the independent thought that you claim He wants us to have?

hmm...but, in that case, why punish Adam? he didn't know any better, so why not just kick out Eve? it seems cruel to punish Adam even though he could not possibly have acted differently than he did (seeing as how he still would not have had free will at the time).

Adam DID have free will. He was punished because he disobeyed the one thing God had told him not to do.

hmm...but, in that case, why punish Adam? he didn't know any better, so why not just kick out Eve? it seems cruel to punish Adam even though he could not possibly have acted differently than he did (seeing as how he still would not have had free will at the time).
also the bible makes god seem almost afraid of adam and eve after they eat the apple, like this apple has made them a threat to him. perhaps the real ancient moral of this story is not that god gave humanity free will, but that the serpant tricked humanity into acquiring free will, and god for some reason couldn't take it back, even though he seemed to personally fear the consequences.

Adam DID have free will. He was punished because he disobeyed the one thing God had told him not to do.
so both Adam and Eve had free will before they ate the apple? Adam knew it was wrong to eat the apple BEFORE he ate it?

Because in order to do that, he would have had to give us limbs which were basically incapable of doing anything practical. Eyes can see well and good, but they can't touch anything. It is the limbs used for touching which can harm people, and you can kill someone if you really try with just about any limb.
He could have made it so that arms wouldn't work to harm things yet still do their function, how not sure hes the all powerfull all knowing one he should have been able to figure out some thing. For example why does it have to damage people when we them, maybe it could feed them in stead.

right. that's what i said above: God allows us to do evil because stopping it would violate free will...but that still leaves my original question.

if He wanted us to use our knowledge of good and evil to make wise decisions, why did He forbid Adam and Eve to eat the apple? why did he punish them for doing so, since it was the means to obtain the independent thought that you claim He wants us to have?

He had free will before he ate the apple. So by eating the apple he wasn't obtaining indepedent thought, he was simply eating what he had been told was a delicious, yet forbidden, fruit. And I don't know why God didn't want him to eat from the tree. Perhaps it was a test of faith. I'm not God, so I don't know. But the point is, he did, and Adam still disobeyed.

also the bible makes god seem almost afraid of adam and eve after they eat the apple, like this apple has made them a threat to him. perhaps the real ancient moral of this story is not that god gave humanity free will, but that the serpant tricked humanity into acquiring free will, and god for some reason couldn't take it back, even though he seemed to personally fear the consequences.
He was afraid they would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever.

also the bible makes god seem almost afraid of adam and eve after they eat the apple, like this apple has made them a threat to him. perhaps the real ancient moral of this story is not that god gave humanity free will, but that the serpant tricked humanity into acquiring free will, and god for some reason couldn't take it back, even though he seemed to personally fear the consequences.

Sounds more angry than fearful to me. But wouldn't you be fearful if you knew exactly what would happen as a consequence? In the same way that you might be afraid if your frriend decides to go skydiving with or something which you know might kill them...

so both Adam and Eve had free will before they ate the apple? Adam knew it was wrong to eat the apple BEFORE he ate it?

Yes. Got it in one.

He was afraid they would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever.

Live forever? I think you are confusing other stories...

He could have made it so that arms wouldn't work to harm things yet still do their function, how not sure hes the all powerfull all knowing one he should have been able to figure out some thing. For example why does it have to damage people when we them, maybe it could feed them in stead.

That would take away your free will, though. There is only so much difference between not being able to control your mind and not being able to control your body.

Yes. Got it in one.
Than what did the fruit do, on a side note did you know that the latin words for evil and apple are the same, which might explain why the fruit is often refered to as an apple.

Than what did the fruit do, on a side note did you know that the latin words for evil and apple are the same, which might explain why the fruit is often refered to as an apple.

The latin words for "evil" and "left" are the same. I don't know about "apple". And it was an apple from the Tree of Knowledge. It gave Adam and Eve, and consequently the human race, much greater intelligence.

Edit: From checking the NJV Bible, it says it was the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". So it allowed them to know the difference between the two.

That would take away your free will, though. There is only so much difference between not being able to control your mind and not being able to control your body.
But I don't control my body completly I'm bound by the laws of physics and nature, both of which can restrict my actions, but not my mind, or will because I can contemplate or imagine that they don't exist, indicating that my mind is freeer than my body.

He was afraid they would eat from the Tree of Life and live forever.
which would make them like him(or them, the bible get weirdly polytheistic for a minute there)

It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just the tree of knowledge.

For what it's worth, I think that until they were ready to make a choice, rather than following blindly, they were not ready for the knowledge of good and evil.

But I don't control my body completly I'm bound by the laws of physics and nature, both of which can restrict my actions, but not my mind, or will because I can contemplate or imagine that they don't exist, indicating that my mind is freeer than my body.

Yes, but think about the reasons. The laws of nature and physics are limitations based on our surroundings. They are not restrictions for the intention of banning us from carrying out certain actions.

The latin words for "evil" and "left" are the same. I don't know about "apple". And it was an apple from the Tree of Knowledge. It gave Adam and Eve, and consequently the human race, much greater intelligence.
Its malum which is another one of the words for evil.

It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just the tree of knowledge.

Yeah, I just realised, and editted it into my answer. Thanks, though.

Its malum which is another one of the words for evil.

Touche.

Yes, but think about the reasons. The laws of nature and physics are limitations based on our surroundings. They are not restrictions for the intention of banning us from carrying out certain actions.
Yet they still do, meaning God has the ability to restrict our actions. and they do cause effect morality for example if nature didn't make it immpossible for me to walk through walls I could be a veary good thief and crime would be much easier.

Yet they still do, meaning God has the ability to restrict our actions. and they do cause effect morality for example if nature didn't make it immpossible for me to walk through walls I could be a veary good thief and crime would be much easier.

Yet you could still walk through a wall and not commit a crime. What you are suggesting is that God stopped us from doing anything wrong. In your scenario, mankind would be able to, say, strangle a branch (not that you would want to), or cut stuff, but as soon as it becomes intentional to harm, they would not be able to control themselves. So you are suggesting it would entirely be down to when they attempted to do something wrong. Nature and physics don't do that. Does physics stop us from jumping high only when we mean to do it to get over the fence so we can rob the villa/warehouse? No, because that isn't how nature works.

Yet you could still walk through a wall and not commit a crime. What you are suggesting is that God stopped us from doing anything wrong. In your scenario, mankind would be able to, say, strangle a branch (not that you would want to), or cut stuff, but as soon as it becomes intentional to harm, they would not be able to control themselves. So you are suggesting it would entirely be down to when they attempted to do something wrong. Nature and physics don't do that. Does physics stop us from jumping high only when we mean to do it to get over the fence so we can rob the villa/warehouse? No, because that isn't how nature works.
No I'm saying you could make it so that those actions don't harm humans.

I've often asked Christian friends and peers why their God would allow humans to do evil to each other, seeing as how so much injustice comes from these actions, and they have all told me the same basic thing: God allows us free will, and free will means having the ability to know evil (as well as good) and the responsibility to choose for ourselves. Okay, I got that. But here's what I don't get...

According to the Bible, Adam and Eve did NOT know good and evil when they were first playing around in the Garden. Humans were created innocent, and only gained the knowledge of good and evil through direct defiance of God when they ate from the forbidden Tree.

So if free will requires knowledge of good and evil, and the ability to do good or evil, then Adam and Eve could not have had free will until AFTER they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore, their actions were not free, and God's subsequent punishment of them (and the rest of all humanity) seems very unjust.

On the other hand, if Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat the Apple, then free will clearly does not require knowledge of or ability for evil because they had neither until after they ate the apple. In that case, why does God allow evil at all? If evil is not necessary for our free will, then why have it?

So which is it? Is knowledge of evil necessary for free will? If so, and if God wants humans to have free will, then why were Adam and Eve forbidden to take the necessary step to acquire free will, and why were they punished for acheiving it? If God did not desire humans to have free will, why do we have it? And should we try to get rid of it?

Ooooo...that one makes me glad I don't take the Bible purely literally. :)

No I'm saying you could make it so that those actions don't harm humans.

Well in that case, you are changing the result of actions, which distorts reality.

Well in that case, you are changing the result of actions, which distorts reality.
Yes but if God created everything he can make any reality he wants, no?

Yes but if God created everything he can make any reality he wants, no?

Perhaps not. I just made a peanut butter sandwich. No matter how hard I try, that sandwich will never become a socket wrench.

Creating something doesn't give you absolute power over it.

What if he doesn't want to distort reality? I mean, heck, think how many people would go crazy now if suddenly any act of evil didn't work. People have nervous breakdowns for smaller things. Think what people would be like if reality changed based on circumstance. And besides. It all ties back to free will. Free will is not just independent thought, it's independent action, too. To be physically incapable of such acts would detract from free will.

Perhaps not. I just made a peanut butter sandwich. No matter how hard I try, that sandwich will never become a socket wrench.

Creating something doesn't give you absolute power over it.
Yes but you didn't create that sandwhich you assembled it out of parts that all ready exist. So if God created everything out of nothing he could have created it in anyway he wanted since there were not yet any limits since nothing yet existed, so he could have created reality any way he wanted.

What if he doesn't want to distort reality? I mean, heck, think how many people would go crazy now if suddenly any act of evil didn't work. People have nervous breakdowns for smaller things. Think what people would be like if reality changed based on circumstance. And besides. It all ties back to free will. Free will is not just independent thought, it's independent action, too. To be physically incapable of such acts would detract from free will.
First if God can distort reality he could distort it so we don't realize it is distorted. And second we dont have independent action because our actions are limited by the out side forces of nature and physics and such.

Live forever? I think you are confusing other stories...

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was next to the Tree of Life in the Garden, when they ate of the Tree of Knowledge they were kicked out, lest they should also eat of the Tree of Life and become immortal.

Okay, so Adam and Eve were like children before they ate the fruit of knowledge, they didn't know good from evil, they just didn't do as they were told. Like when you tell a three year old not to play in the street, and as soon as you look away they do anyway. They know they aren't supposed to, but you can hardly say they understand good and evil for doing so...they just don't listen.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was next to the Tree of Life in the Garden, when they ate of the Tree of Knowledge they were kicked out, lest they should also eat of the Tree of Life and become immortal.
yep

Consider this, though. Back to the sandwich. Let us say God created the sandwich out of nothing. But He decideds that He really wants a bagel with Lox, and thus transforms the peanut butter sandwich. Well, it isn't a sandwich any more. Likewise, you could suppose that the state of the universe is set. You could say that God can change it, but then it wouldn't be the universe anymore.

Consider this, though. Back to the sandwich. Let us say God created the sandwich out of nothing. But He decideds that He really wants a bagel with Lox, and thus transforms the peanut butter sandwich. Well, it isn't a sandwich any more. Likewise, you could suppose that the state of the universe is set. You could say that God can change it, but then it wouldn't be the universe anymore.
Of course not, that doesn't mean an all powerful God couldn't have done it, or do it.

So which is it? Is knowledge of evil necessary for free will? If so, and if God wants humans to have free will, then why were Adam and Eve forbidden to take the necessary step to acquire free will, and why were they punished for acheiving it? If God did not desire humans to have free will, why do we have it? And should we try to get rid of it?

Knowledge of good and evil is not nessecary for free will decsisions not regarding good and evil. The decision of the fruit in the garden was not a decision of anything "good" or "evil" but simpley a choice, to obey or not.

I've often asked Christian friends and peers why their God would allow humans to do evil to each other, seeing as how so much injustice comes from these actions, and they have all told me the same basic thing: God allows us free will, and free will means having the ability to know evil (as well as good) and the responsibility to choose for ourselves. Okay, I got that. But here's what I don't get...

According to the Bible, Adam and Eve did NOT know good and evil when they were first playing around in the Garden. Humans were created innocent, and only gained the knowledge of good and evil through direct defiance of God when they ate from the forbidden Tree.

So if free will requires knowledge of good and evil, and the ability to do good or evil, then Adam and Eve could not have had free will until AFTER they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Therefore, their actions were not free, and God's subsequent punishment of them (and the rest of all humanity) seems very unjust.

On the other hand, if Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat the Apple, then free will clearly does not require knowledge of or ability for evil because they had neither until after they ate the apple. In that case, why does God allow evil at all? If evil is not necessary for our free will, then why have it?

So which is it? Is knowledge of evil necessary for free will? If so, and if God wants humans to have free will, then why were Adam and Eve forbidden to take the necessary step to acquire free will, and why were they punished for acheiving it? If God did not desire humans to have free will, why do we have it? And should we try to get rid of it?

Of course God wanted us to have free will. And yes, even without knowledge of good and evil, we have it. But what's free will without a choice? God didn't want Adam and Eve to worship him because there were never any other options... And while it was preferable that Adam and Eve remain innocent, God couldn't deny them the choice to know good and evil if they wanted to.

Knowledge of good and evil is not nessecary for free will decsisions not regarding good and evil. The decision of the fruit in the garden was not a decision of anything "good" or "evil" but simpley a choice, to obey or not.
But if they didn't know of good or evil, eg right and wrong, how should they know that it was wrong not to behave and eat the fruit.

[snip] So which is it? Is knowledge of evil necessary for free will? If so, and if God wants humans to have free will, then why were Adam and Eve forbidden to take the necessary step to acquire free will, and why were they punished for acheiving it? If God did not desire humans to have free will, why do we have it? And should we try to get rid of it?
The myth is not about acquiring free will, it is about the dilemma Eve faces (sadly down-played in the Bible version) between the mind and the heart.

But to address your question, the existence of "evil" is not necessary in order for us to have free will. It is necessary in order for us to have "good". Just as a self requires non-self things in order to know itself, recognition of good requires a recognition of non-good things in order for us to know it.

How would we go about "getting rid" of free will? :confused:

Veary good question and it's personaly one of my biggest stiking points when it comes to Christianity. Furthermore could we not ask why free will is always ascociated with free action, seeing as we don not have free action but are bound by the laws of nature, which if God made nature were put in place by God. And if our actions can be bound in that manner and still allow us free will, could not our actions also be bound to prevent us from taking immorral actions while still allowing us to have free will?
Because if we are bound in any way, our will is not "free". Actions are irrelevant; will is the activity of a consciousness.

EDIT: well, not entirely irrelevant in that they result from will.

Because if we are bound in any way, our will is not "free". Actions are irrelevant; will is the activity of a consciousness.

EDIT: well, not entirely irrelevant in that they result from will.
exactly wil and action are seperate, so you could control actions without controling will.

But if they didn't know of good or evil, eg right and wrong, how should they know that it was wrong not to behave and eat the fruit.

Good and evil are not the same as right or wrong. If a parent tells a child not to eat a sandwich that they have put in the fridge for their lunch later, and that child then eats it, that is not "evil" but it is "wrong". It is "wrong" to disobey your parents, and God, but it is not "evil" to disobey your parents and it wasnt "evil" for Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. It was just disobediant, "wrong". The command was not one that had any kind of moral implications, it was a simple command of obediance. Now some may argue that the consequences of that sin are moral implication enough to justify it as a moral decsion and therefore somehow "evil". But the problem with that is that it creates a lack of responsablity. Obviously if everyone knew the consequences of their actions BEFORE they did them then people would never do the ones with the bad consequences.

Good and evil are not the same as right or wrong. If a parent tells a child not to eat a sandwich that they have put in the fridge for their lunch later, and that child then eats it, that is not "evil" but it is "wrong". It is "wrong" to disobey your parents, and God, but it is not "evil" to disobey your parents and it wasnt "evil" for Adam and Eve to eat the fruit. It was just disobediant, "wrong". The command was not one that had any kind of moral implications, it was a simple command of obediance. Now some may argue that the consequences of that sin are moral implication enough to justify it as a moral decsion and therefore somehow "evil". But the problem with that is that it creates a lack of responsablity. Obviously if everyone knew the consequences of their actions BEFORE they did them then people would never do the ones with the bad consequences.
If what they did was only wrong and not evil why the harsh punishment,

If what they did was only wrong and not evil why the harsh punishment,

Because of who they were disobeying. They were disobeying GOD. The person who had created them and had created the world for them. Also because it was an extremely simple command to keep with the punishment fully explained to them. There was no need to disobey God yet they did anyway. Things dont need to be "evil" to justify harsh punishment. Espically since they didnt know "good" and "evil" at that point. So they couldnt have been punished for good or evil.

On a more complex and metaphysical note, it is also to do with the nature of sin and the nature of God. Because of the nature of sin and the nature of God being what they are, God will not accept sin in his pressence (or certianly in his pressence in the way that Adam and Eve were) which is why he sent Jesus to die to remove Sin

exactly wil and action are seperate, so you could control actions without controling will.
But then it wouldn't be you controlling...

Well, the punishment wasn't fully explained to them. God said that if they ate the fruit of the tree they would surely die which is true. The serpent said that they sould not surely die, which is also true.

Eating the fruit wasn't fatal but it resulted in them being denied immortality. They had the choice of believing two being believing one being or the other and both were telling half-truths.If God was there they certainly would have believed him. But he wasn't. Lacking the knowledge of good and evil they couldn't judge the serpent's words and thus believed them whole-heartedly.

By eating the fruit they became like God. Having been made in God's image and possessing God's knowledge They would have become God's equals has they eaten from the tree of life. God saw this as being a bad thing. As a result he kicked them out.

Anyway it is a metaphor to explain death, demonstrate covenant relationship between YWEH and his people, and provide motivation for farmer's.

It should be noted that God's actions were not punishment. God himself laments his decision and repents to Adam and Eve, fashioning clothes for them. However, it is a decision God cannot undo. He cannot allow humans to become immortal.

But then it wouldn't be you controlling...
There are already actions that I can not commit that I can think of and contemplate meaning I am intellectually free from constraint but constrained from action why is this necesarily different.

Well, the punishment wasn't fully explained to them. God said that if they ate the fruit of the tree they would surely die which is true. The serpent said that they sould not surely die, which is also true.

No, because had they remained in Eden, they would not have died ever, but by eating it they will die. Eating the fruit is the cause of the death but it is not immidate. If someone gives me a poisioned apple using a timed posion which will only kill me in X number of years, did that person still kill me. Yes. The Devil lied, they would surely die.


Eating the fruit wasn't fatal but it resulted in them being denied immortality. They had the choice of believing two being believing one being or the other and both were telling half-truths.If God was there they certainly would have believed him. But he wasn't. Lacking the knowledge of good and evil they couldn't judge the serpent's words and thus believed them whole-heartedly..

You do not need knowledge of good and evil to know if someone is lying. And they knew who God was and that he could not lie to them. Ergo they knew the serpent must have been lying.


By eating the fruit they became like God. Having been made in God's image and possessing God's knowledge They would have become God's equals has they eaten from the tree of life. God saw this as being a bad thing. As a result he kicked them out.

I dont think they would have been God's equals. They may have had a portion of his understanding, but not his power, or his omnicience.

There are already actions that I can not commit that I can think of and contemplate meaning I am intellectually free from constraint but constrained from action why is this necesarily different.
Control is one of those "activities of a consciousness", it is an expression of will. If you have no control, either you are doing things unwillingly (like someone forcing you), or it's not you doing them.

First off, let us clear up any misconceptions of what evil is:

At a certain college there was a certain professor with a reputation of being tough on Christians. At the first class of every semester he asked if anyone was a Christian and proceeded to degrade them and to mock their statement of faith. One semester, he asked the question and a young man raised his hand when asked if anyone was a Christian. The professor asked, "Did God create everything, young man?" he replied, "Yes sir He did!" The professor responded, "If God made everything, then he made evil." The student didn't have a response and the professor was happy to have once again proved the Christian faith to be a myth. Then another man raised his hand and asked, "May I ask you something, sir?" "Yes, you may" responded the professor. The young man stood up and said "Sir, is there such a thing as cold?" "Of course there is, what kind of question is that? Haven't you ever been cold?" The young man replied, "Actually, sir, cold doesn't exist. What we consider to be cold is really an absence of heat. Absolute zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that term to describe how we feel when heat is not there." The young man continued, "Sir, is there such a thing as dark?" Once again, the professor responded "Of course there is." And once again, the student replied "Actually, sir, darkness does not exist. Darkness is really only the absence of light. Darkness is only a term man developed to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally, the young man asked, "Sir, is there such a thing as evil?" The professor responded "Of course. We have rapes, and murders and violence everywhere in the world, those things are evil." The student replied "Actually, sir, evil does not exist. Evil is simply the absence of God. God did not create evil. It isn't like truth, or love, which exist as virtues like heat or light. Evil is simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat or darkness without light." The professor had nothing to say...
(NOTE: I'm not trying to argue about evil, just showing my particular view on the matter)


Now then, like Neo Cannen said, it was not a question of doing evil or not, but simply obeying or not. Not knowing about lies, it's possible, and likely, that Eve took the serpent at face value. He said you can, so she "could" so she did. She knew she shouldn't, yet she chose to anyways.

Perhaps you should think of the tree less of an actual tree and more of an analogy. Not to say that the tree wasn't real or anything like that, but let us take another perspective.

Eve, previous to this, had no idea that it was even possible to not do what God told you to do. He said what he said and that was that. Lying, deceiving, cheating, none of that was known to her, or if it was, it certainly wasn't an option for her. Even if she knew what lying was, she didn't know that she could actually do it, because God told her not to and that was the end of that. If we look at the story above, we see that evil is just not-God, and so even if she knew what lying and such was (which I'm starting to think she might have), she would not lie or cheat or disobey because that would be against God, and thus, evil, which she did not know was possible.
So when she took the bite of the apple, it was the first time she disobeyed God. Even if the tree had not been the tree it was, this would have a profound effect on Eve. So along with actually giving the knowledge, it is symbolic: she could disobey God, and here is the proof.

I think that up until then she probably thought she wouldn't be able to do it. I imagine her thought process during this was, "I can't do it, so what's the harm in trying? I can't disobey God, so I can go ahead and try, because I know I won't." Whoops! (Mind you, don't quote me on that, it's just my imagination). Suddenly she realizes that there IS harm in trying, because you CAN disobey God, and now she HAS disobeyed God. Then it occurs to her that not only is it possible, but it is evil, disobeying God is against God, not-God, away from God, thus evil. A startling revelation, I would imagine.

Much more startling is probably when she came to realize just exactly what she had done. She had cursed the entire human race with sin. I can't imagine she'd be too happy about that.

Well done, RhynoD

Well done, RhynoD
Thank you very much, good sir.

I didn't read the whole thread so it may have been said but...



the parable of the garden of eden is that we had a connection with G-d directly, and we were able to do what we wanted because he knew G-d and so we were sinless.

Then we sought out our own path, one that lead us against G-d and his way, and it brought the desire of sin, or the desire to do things not of G-d. G-d had created us to love him, and thats where free will comes from. Just as you want your children to be their own people, but you still want them to listen to you, same concept with G-d and free will.

G-d and man's connection was no longer the same, so we we expelled from the Garden, and had to enter the test of the world. Where we had to find G-d again, without the direct connection, but still retain our freedom. Since a choice counter to G-d had been made, it remained. So G-d lets us make that choice and waits for us to find our way home.