NationStates Jolt Archive

I watched the news today, oh boy. People, in america were protesting, you know, your average protester. Dam the bank, not River...Blood for Oil...Bush is a ****ing Nazi. Fighting for Peace is like ****ing for Virginity...

Well, then I saw a protestor wearing a hoodie, in a hot spring day, with a bandana wrapped around his face, like Clint Eastwood, in the good, the bad and the Ugly. He was putting his hand on the camera, and walking by quickly, and as they continued with this broadcast (National News, not American filth propaganda) In secluded, different areas people hid there faces with different kinds of clothing, and material, and kept away from the camera. In AMERICA.

Obviously, these people did this for there jobs. You can believe what you want about America, but I have a friend/ex-co-worker, who is a moroccan. He has a Unique different name (not mo, or Ali-Bawa, or Kashklash, or Kakistandoodoo), after 9/11, when he was looking for a job, for three months he never got a call back. After one day (we're talking about a well qualified individual) he changed his name to an american name (which started with the same letter and was close to his real name, lets say "steve" although that is way off) so Steve changes his name, re-sends his applications through Headhunters, and in three days, he got two call backs, and one scheduled interview. I have another co-worker, who, in his last job was sitting in his cubical, when two men came right into his hallway, and were talking about the war in Iraq. They were saying regular stuff, and he made one comment, telling a guy he agreed with him (they're both white) the next day, he was called into his bosses office and told not to talk about foreign issues (but it's okay for white people to do so...and all of a sudden, talking about foreign issues means agreeing with someone) the next day, over the PA the boss said his name, excluded him, and said if "anyone doesn't want to work with "____" he can pack his things and leave"

You should not be afraid to be caught on Camera protesting, not in america. You should not be afraid to speak your voice. Hell, they have Nazi marches in a certain Jewish part of town every year, with Nazi flags (I live in Chigaco, btw) and I am completetly ok with this, because that is a form of oppresion, in America, you let the idiots speak.

so much for freedom of speech

Well, think about this: It's possible to be charged with Felony Assault just for throwing a pie at somebody.

Civil liberties in America have definitely declined since the 1970's, especially for foreigners.

Well, think about this: It's possible to be charged with Felony Assault just for throwing a pie at somebody.

Buddy Holly was killed by a flying pie.

Buddy Holly was killed by a flying pie.

...

I watched the news today, oh boy. People, in america were protesting, you know, your average protester. Dam the bank, not River...Blood for Oil...Bush is a ****ing Nazi. Fighting for Peace is like ****ing for Virginity...

Well, then I saw a protestor wearing a hoodie, in a hot spring day, with a bandana wrapped around his face, like Clint Eastwood, in the good, the bad and the Ugly. He was putting his hand on the camera, and walking by quickly, and as they continued with this broadcast (National News, not American filth propaganda) In secluded, different areas people hid there faces with different kinds of clothing, and material, and kept away from the camera. In AMERICA.

Obviously, these people did this for there jobs. You can believe what you want about America, but I have a friend/ex-co-worker, who is a moroccan. He has a Unique different name (not mo, or Ali-Bawa, or Kashklash, or Kakistandoodoo), after 9/11, when he was looking for a job, for three months he never got a call back. After one day (we're talking about a well qualified individual) he changed his name to an american name (which started with the same letter and was close to his real name, lets say "steve" although that is way off) so Steve changes his name, re-sends his applications through Headhunters, and in three days, he got two call backs, and one scheduled interview. I have another co-worker, who, in his last job was sitting in his cubical, when two men came right into his hallway, and were talking about the war in Iraq. They were saying regular stuff, and he made one comment, telling a guy he agreed with him (they're both white) the next day, he was called into his bosses office and told not to talk about foreign issues (but it's okay for white people to do so...and all of a sudden, talking about foreign issues means agreeing with someone) the next day, over the PA the boss said his name, excluded him, and said if "anyone doesn't want to work with "____" he can pack his things and leave"

You should not be afraid to be caught on Camera protesting, not in america. You should not be afraid to speak your voice. Hell, they have Nazi marches in a certain Jewish part of town every year, with Nazi flags (I live in Chigaco, btw) and I am completetly ok with this, because that is a form of oppresion, in America, you let the idiots speak.

You know you're very angry...and maybe a little paranoid.

You know you're very angry...and maybe a little paranoid.

Which is exactly what a lot of people were after 9/11, usually far beyond being rational.

There was once a group of rather attractive female protestors wearing thongs like "Hey Bush, Here's a Weapons of Mass Seduction" and "Asses of Evil" (Or than that was on a poster with bushes face... too bad the republicans are elephants...). That was one time I enjoed watching the news!^^

Yeah, well, I wouldn't want photo's of me protesting surfacing later in life when I least expect or desire them to, either.

Being a leftist has never been a good career move.

Hell, they have Nazi marches in a certain Jewish part of town every year, with Nazi flags (I live in Chigaco, btw) and I am completetly ok with this,
you definitely shouldnt be, there is a difference between freedom of speech and allowing fascist to preach their evil.

and by the way, it is not a bad idea to protect your identity at protest because the government profiles many protestors as potential threats and goes bigbrother on them

Which is exactly what a lot of people were after 9/11, usually far beyond being rational.

Tough to be rational when terrorists kill over 3000 people. Can't say I blame them.

Being a leftist has never been a good career move.

It should never have to be a burden, though it very sadly is.

'mon, y'bastards, do something about this, quick, would you? Before it crosses the Atlantic in major force, which it almost certainly will (has already, to a degree). You stop it so I don't have to... at least get in a trial run so I'll know how not to do it. Try to do it without killing too many people, if possible.

[shove]

Tough to be rational when terrorists kill over 3000 people. Can't say I blame them.
its not very tough, and it is one time where you truly need to be rational.

Tough to be rational when terrorists kill over 3000 people. Can't say I blame them.

So, you can't blame people for going wacko-racist, firing people left and right, and not allowing the same types in their places of business?

I know irrationality when I see it, and that's definitely what all that bullshit was. "Oh, eleven terrorists killed 3,000 of our own people! All Middle-Easterners must be EVIL, so we should oppress the fuck out of them!!!"

Don't give me shit when you know it was all overblown.

its not very tough, and it is one time where you truly need to be rational.

Not from New York or DC are you?

somehow i dont thing this only started after 9/11, just that incident shed more light on it.

Tough to be rational when terrorists kill over 3000 people. Can't say I blame them.

Remember that the next time an Iraqi kills an American soldier. Place yourself in their shoes.

Remember that the next time an Iraqi kills an American soldier. Place yourself in their shoes.

That's what I'm talking about.

...

I left you speechless! Actually I was incorrect there... He was killed by a Chevy down by the Levy. Sorry.

I left you speechless! Actually I was incorrect there... He was killed by a Chevy down by the Levy. Sorry.

...

Not from New York or DC are you?
not from any of the countries america attacked just cause the military took on a racist attitude are you?

Freedom of speech has good and bad aspects:

1) It's Good Because it allows for dissent and being able to express your own view

2) It can promote genecide oddly enough (Those Muslims are cockroaches. We need them exterminated)

You see you can't have one without the other, who is to determine what you can and can't say. If "You can't say not nice things" is a law, then how are you to criticize the politicans and other groups, the very point of freedom of speech!

So, you can't blame people for going wacko-racist, firing people left and right, and not allowing the same types in their places of business?

I know irrationality when I see it, and that's definitely what all that bullshit was. "Oh, eleven terrorists killed 3,000 of our own people! All Middle-Easterners must be EVIL, so we should oppress the fuck out of them!!!"

Don't give me shit when you know it was all overblown.
I agree.

Remember that the next time an Iraqi kills an American soldier. Place yourself in their shoes.
how about when an american kills an innocent iraqi?

So, you can't blame people for going wacko-racist, firing people left and right, and not allowing the same types in their places of business?

I know irrationality when I see it, and that's definitely what all that bullshit was. "Oh, eleven terrorists killed 3,000 of our own people! All Middle-Easterners must be EVIL, so we should oppress the fuck out of them!!!"

Don't give me shit when you know it was all overblown.

Don't really see a lot of that where I live. I'm even engaged to an Iranian. She seems to go to work and functions quite well in the business world with none of the OPRESSION you seem to be alluding to. Say, lighten up a bit. My point was that it was tough for people to be rational right after 911. You've seemed to turned it into some middle eastern oppression deal.

not from any of the countries america attacked just cause the military took on a racist attitude are you?
What are you saying?

how about when an american kills an innocent iraqi?

Exactly my point, in that many Iraqi's are only fighting back...

And that the WTC isn't a valid reason for perpetuating more violence, otherwise it comes down to hypocrisy.

Don't really see a lot of that where I live. I'm even engaged to an Iranian. She seems to go to work and functions quite well in the business world with none of the OPRESSION you seem to be alluding to. Say, lighten up a bit. My point was that it was tough for people to be rational right after 911. You've seemed to turned it into some middle eastern oppression deal.

Difficult to be rational? Look, if you ever find it difficult to be rational, you aren't rational in the first place. And it is a Middle-Eastern oppresion issue. Just look at how aggressive Bush is towards the nations in the Middle East, and the way our soldiers talk about Middle-Easterners, Iraqis in particular.

Here's a tip: You lighten up yourself. You're the one who came on like a flaming, know-it-all arse. Lemme ask you this: Do you live in Texas? No?

Then back off.

Don't really see a lot of that where I live. I'm even engaged to an Iranian. She seems to go to work and functions quite well in the business world with none of the OPRESSION you seem to be alluding to. Say, lighten up a bit. My point was that it was tough for people to be rational right after 911. You've seemed to turned it into some middle eastern oppression deal.
it wasnt difficult to be rational, and he didnt turn it into a middle-eastern oppression deal, thats what it turned into

Exactly my point, in that many Iraqi's are only fighting back...

And that the WTC isn't a valid reason for perpetuating more violence, otherwise it comes down to hypocrisy.

Wow, you people really read into things. My point was that after 9/11 people were irrational. I live about 5 miles from the Pentagon and I understand this fear.

Remember that the next time an Iraqi kills an American soldier. Place yourself in their shoes.
Okay, now what should I feel if an Iraqi kills a bunch of iraqi women and children?

Difficult to be rational? Look, if you ever find it difficult to be rational, you aren't rational in the first place. And it is a Middle-Eastern oppresion issue. Just look at how aggressive Bush is towards the nations in the Middle East, and the way our soldiers talk about Middle-Easterners, Iraqis in particular.

Here's a tip: You lighten up yourself. You're the one who came on like a flaming, know-it-all arse. Lemme ask you this: Do you live in Texas? No?

Then back off.

You know that's funny because I grew up in Pearland, I'm assuming youknow where that is being from Houston...I'm also in touch with the muslim community in Dallas and Houston through my future wife's family. They all seem to be well adjusted nice people I don't recall a large Iraqi population there however. I was gonna ask you where you lived in Houston but you really are irrational here. How can you read my attitude from the written word? I didn't come in like a flaming whatever.

Okay, now what should I feel if an Iraqi kills a bunch of iraqi women and children?

Empathy for the Iraqi women and children?

I'm not defending either side here. Innocent women and children have died because of the actions of both the USA and the Iraqi resistance.

What are you saying?
im saying that compared to the wars that the (uncalled for) irrationality that you speak of 9/11 was nothing

-snip-

See how it feels?

See how it feels?

What?

im saying that compared to the wars that the (uncalled for) irrationality that you speak of 9/11 was nothing

What do wars have to do with the way people feel after a terrorist attack. I don't see the connection. The two don't seem interrelated. That's my point. People were irrational after 9/11. What do the wars have to do with this?

*covers forehead with hand*

*shakes head*

I find this all very odd... the war attitudes, I mean.

Twenty-odd Britons died in the Blitz for every one American killed in those oh so infamous attacks, and most amongst us now recognise that, hey, what we did to Dresden was really fucking out of line. So why the hell are we doing little better to Iraqi cities that resist, especially when... well, how many Iraqis were there flying into the WTC? Just be glad that a couple of thousand were killed instead of the hundreds of thousands to which it would translate if Britian hadn't got in the way of the Luftwaffe, and realise that lashing out will only be seen in retrospect as a bit regrettable, really.

(And, from a purely tactical point of view, why aren't the yanks learning from the late years of the French and British empires, especially in regard to Nairobi, when fighting in Iraq? Refusing to learn in the Great War got thousands of American citizens killed, refusing to learn in the North African campagain in WWII got thousands of Americans killed against the tide of battle previously, so why American citizens are getting killed again in ignorance of Franco-British lessons I don't know.)

What do wars have to do with the way people feel after a terrorist attack. I don't see the connection. The two don't seem interrelated. That's my point. People were irrational after 9/11. What do the wars have to do with this?
that irrationality served as justification of bush's war

that irrationality made people accept bush's war as a good thing

You have to be like 12 I assume. Once again, people were irrational after 9/11, it's a very natural emotion. You can try to twist my statement any way you like. This is like arguing with a child, you have to be 12.

Tough to be rational when terrorists kill over 3000 people. Can't say I blame them.

Did somebody ask, WHY those guys chose America and not Luxemburg, Monaco or Switzerland?

Was it maybe because Americans poke their nose into places where they have no business to be in the first place?

If America is so much about freedom of choice, how about letting others choose their freedom?

Tough to be rational when terrorists kill over 3000 people. Can't say I blame them.

2500, considering this is one of the smallest groups of deaths over the past couple of years I'd have to say you guys have blown it WAAAAAY out of proportion...taking away civil liberties.

Did somebody ask, WHY those guys chose America and not Luxemburg, Monaco or Switzerland?

Was it maybe because Americans poke their nose into places where they have no business to be in the first place?

If America is so much about freedom of choice, how about letting others choose their freedom?

You deserve a cookie.

*hands you a cookie*

Did somebody ask, WHY those guys chose America and not Luxemburg, Monaco or Switzerland?

Was it maybe because Americans poke their nose into places where they have no business to be in the first place?

If America is so much about freedom of choice, how about letting others choose their freedom?

Yes, the 9/11 commision report did...GO READ IT, THEN STATE YOUR OPINON (not you...others...like Big Scoob)

You have to be like 12 I assume. Once again, people were irrational after 9/11, it's a very natural emotion. You can try to twist my statement any way you like. This is like arguing with a child, you have to be 12.
fine im only twelve years old you win, i have to sleep

Yes, the 9/11 commision report did...GO READ IT, THEN STATE YOUR OPINON (not you...others...like Big Scoob)
Actually so pretty good advice.

Don't really see a lot of that where I live. I'm even engaged to an Iranian. She seems to go to work and functions quite well in the business world with none of the OPRESSION you seem to be alluding to. Say, lighten up a bit. My point was that it was tough for people to be rational right after 911. You've seemed to turned it into some middle eastern oppression deal.

She isn't a Male...she's seen as the Victim to all the BS. now, 19 Hijackers...16 of them from Saudi Arabia, and yet...we don't attack Saudi Arabia, nor is the 16 Hijacker's ethnicity even mentioned other than here and there.

Okay, now what should I feel if an Iraqi kills a bunch of iraqi women and children?

Yes...because we all have the urge to kill our own people and not the invaders into our region. :headbang:

She isn't a Male...she's seen as the Victim to all the BS. now, 19 Hijackers...16 of them from Saudi Arabia, and yet...we don't attack Saudi Arabia, nor is the 16 Hijacker's ethnicity even mentioned other than here and there.
obviously, america woulnt want to piss off a major oil supplier that theyre on good terms with

You know that's funny because I grew up in Pearland, I'm assuming youknow where that is being from Houston...I'm also in touch with the muslim community in Dallas and Houston through my future wife's family. They all seem to be well adjusted nice people I don't recall a large Iraqi population there however. I was gonna ask you where you lived in Houston but you really are irrational here. How can you read my attitude from the written word? I didn't come in like a flaming whatever.

THEY ARE IRANIAN...MOST OF THEM AREN'T MUSLIM, OR PRACTICING MUSLIMS...I've had Irani friends...and there mothers and there fathers aren't exactly muslim, much more like Persians.

She isn't a Male...she's seen as the Victim to all the BS. now, 19 Hijackers...16 of them from Saudi Arabia, and yet...we don't attack Saudi Arabia, nor is the 16 Hijacker's ethnicity even mentioned other than here and there.

I don't think anybody sees her as a victim. Besides, her father and brother don't seem to be oppressed in any way Her father has a PHD in Economics and teaches at George Washington U. Her brother owns his own business. I think everybody knows the nationality of the hijackers by now so I don't see the point of that statement. I'm not saying discrimination doesn't happen. It happens in all countries. What I don't see is this rampant, baltant discrimination you're alluding to.

Just wanted to butt in here about them covering their faces. They actually give out or sell bandanas and the like before or during the protest. It is intended to make people like you make the conclusion that their freedom of expression is being suppressed. Of course this is despite the fact that they are protesting in the first place. >.>

Apparently it works better then I would have given other people credit for.

obviously, america woulnt want to piss off a major oil supplier that theyre on good terms with

I thought you were going to bed junior.

THEY ARE IRANIAN...MOST OF THEM AREN'T MUSLIM, OR PRACTICING MUSLIMS...I've had Irani friends...and there mothers and there fathers aren't exactly muslim, much more like Persians.

I better tell her and her family to stop practicing her religion then. Of course, that would be violating her civil rights.

Just wanted to butt in here about them covering their faces. They actually give out or sell bandanas and the like before or during the protest. It is intended to make people like you make the conclusion that their freedom of expression is being suppressed. Of course this is despite the fact that they are protesting in the first place. >.>

Apparently it works better then I would have given other people credit for.


Yeah, that's just swell!

Argue about what you like, when you like, but obey!

Mm, smells like democracy!


...Only totally different.

Yeah, that's just swell!

Argue about what you like, when you like, but obey!

Mm, smells like democracy!


...Only totally different.

What the HELL are you talking about, boy?

Just wanted to butt in here about them covering their faces. They actually give out or sell bandanas and the like before or during the protest. It is intended to make people like you make the conclusion that their freedom of expression is being suppressed. Of course this is despite the fact that they are protesting in the first place. >.>

Apparently it works better then I would have given other people credit for.

In DC (lots of protests) the people that cover their faces are usually the ones tht actually don't protest peacefully. If you're going to commit a crime, it's a good idea to cover your face.

Well, uhm, the implication was that it's enough that people are allowed to protest in the first place, eh? But what's protest if it carries no weight in a society? It's worth no more than verbal dissent under the watch of Frederick the Great, who is supposed to have said, "Argue as much as you like and about whatever you like, but obey."
Being able to protest means nothing if you must do it without a face, without a place in your society, and the simple right of protest means absolutely nothing, as we've known for many generations.

Well, uhm, the implication was that it's enough that people are allowed to protest in the first place, eh? But what's protest if it carries no weight in a society? It's worth no more than verbal dissent under the watch of Frederick the Great, who is supposed to have said, "Argue as much as you like and about whatever you like, but obey."
Being able to protest means nothing if you must do it without a face, without a place in your society, and the simple right of protest means absolutely nothing, as we've known for many generations.

So, what's the point here? In this country, you protest and hope for the best.

I am a US service member.

While I don't formally represent the US, US military, or US government, my actions and words do reflect on it, even when I speak only of my own beliefs.

As such, I will NOT make comments about my commander in chief, the possible reasons for making war in Iraq, or any other issue that could sensitize any side of this debate. I have opinions on these matters, but I do not have authority to reprsent the military...so I'll stay quiet on them.

But I will make some of my observations known.

Everyone where I am stationed is a person, everyone has a personality. All of them have beliefs, ideas, and inspirations that reflect those of civilian society. I've run into both liberal and conservative, green and libertarian.

I want to make it clear, they are people. Just like every single Iraqi, American, European, or anyone else.

As people, their reactions to Iraq are mixed. Certainly some don't want to go there (or go back there) and get shot at, and some want to go do what they believe is right. Regardless, each and every single one of them recognizes an important fact.

Everyone here has taken an oath, signed a contract, and voluntarily given up that right to choose. Every one recognizes that he or she is a willing piece of a political tool. And not one of them advocates brutal murder of inocent people.

I have yet to hear a single person idealize killing someone because they aren't white (the military is actually pretty diverse itself now), because they aren't christian (the militarry is actually pretty diverse itself now), or because they aren't American (the military is actually pretty damn diverse now).

In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find a group of people who more hate abuses that some of their comrads in arms commit. There is actually a very nasty prison just for these certain types of criminals if it can be justified.

Again, I am not here to comment on justice (thats for the courts to decide), law (thats for our elected representatives), or how and why an action is carried out (that is for my CINC). I believe and trust in those organizations, made of imperfect people, to sort out the right thing to do on that level.

But from my observations at about the lowest possible level of the US military, I think I can safely say:

Any accusations that we are here to murder innocent people for money, or on the basis of race, religion, or other label, are biased, blind loads of political feces. I take offense at any comment that suggests my fellow service members or I revel in murder, torture, rape, theft, or any other crime...or that any of us are "poor, missguided, brainwashed saps doing someone elses dirtywork." There is no truth in that, only blind hypocracy or trollish flamebaiting.



So before this debate is over, I'd like to remind everyone in this forum that we are all people.

The Iraqi's? All people.
The US military? Made of people.
The media? Yup, more people.

You, me, everyone. We are all people. There is no vast conspiricy on either side, we are all people.

Lets remember that before we make more accusations.

Well, uhm, the implication was that it's enough that people are allowed to protest in the first place, eh? But what's protest if it carries no weight in a society? It's worth no more than verbal dissent under the watch of Frederick the Great, who is supposed to have said, "Argue as much as you like and about whatever you like, but obey."
Being able to protest means nothing if you must do it without a face, without a place in your society, and the simple right of protest means absolutely nothing, as we've known for many generations.

Of course. So those protestors in DC should have all armed themselves, stormed the White House and butchered the President and his staff, obliterate the oppressive ruling bodies of the Theocratic States of America, and imposed a Dictatorship of the Proletariat! Then live happily ever after!

Of course, this will not happen because the Theocratic Fascists of Doom have imposed gun control (and blamed it on their pawns the Demonshits) and instated a police state to keep the innocent freedom loving Communists from rising up against the MAN and his Illuminate OF DOOOOOOOM!!!!!

Of course. So those protestors in DC should have all armed themselves, stormed the White House and butchered the President and his staff, obliterate the oppressive ruling bodies of the Theocratic States of America, and imposed a Dictatorship of the Proletariat! Then live happily ever after!

Of course, this will not happen because the Theocratic Fascists of Doom have imposed gun control (and blamed it on their pawns the Demonshits) and instated a police state to keep the innocent freedom loving Communists from rising up against the MAN and his Illuminate OF DOOOOOOOM!!!!!

Yeah, that sounds like a real party. I'm just not much interested in the state, but okay, lets burn some stuff, or lie down and die, it pretty much has to be one or the other.

Or, y'know, not, whatever, really.

Tough to be rational when terrorists kill over 3000 people. Can't say I blame them.

mmmhmmm. And then we kill 100,000 Iraqis, not to mention 1,520 american troops and who knows how many Afghanis

mmmhmmm. And then we kill 100,000 Iraqis, not to mention 1,520 american troops and who knows how many Afghanis

...
...
...
...
...

:confused:

oh yeah... just somthin I learned.
about 53% of americans think we should curtail Muslim rights
about... I think 48%... think we should invade canada

...Well, then I saw a protestor wearing a hoodie, in a hot spring day, with a bandana wrapped around his face, like Clint Eastwood, in the good, the bad and the Ugly. He was putting his hand on the camera, and walking by quickly, and as they continued with this broadcast (National News, not American filth propaganda) In secluded, different areas people hid there faces with different kinds of clothing, and material, and kept away from the camera. In AMERICA...

I have never seen this behavoir in America. I see protesters every day. Both in person and on the news. The only time I have ever seen protesters covering their face is the Ku Klux Klan - but those guys are complete pussies to begin with. If they had any real courage to match their convictions they wouldn't be wearing masks to begin with.

I think you have honestly taken something out of context and perhaps blown it out of proportion. Perhaps the people you saw covering their faces weren't part of the protest to begin with and they did not want to be seen on TV. Many protests take place near courthouses where there are people who would much rather not be seen on TV because they are appearing in court for embarrassing offenses like DUIs.

Protesting is a form of attention seeking behavoir. I highly doubt people are covering their faces. If you have any video or picture links, please provide them. I'm curious to see what you're talking about.

oh yeah... just somthin I learned.
about 53% of americans think we should curtail Muslim rights
about... I think 48%... think we should invade canada

*Goes into convulsions*

You, me, everyone. We are all people. There is no vast conspiricy on either side, we are all people.

Lets remember that before we make more accusations.

I think you're neglecting that conspiracies are generally made of people, bias is held by people, as is hatred. Crimes are done by people, things are stolen by people. The fact that they are people means very little.

I am a US service member.

While I don't formally represent the US, US military, or US government, my actions and words do reflect on it, even when I speak only of my own beliefs.

As such, I will NOT make comments about my commander in chief, the possible reasons for making war in Iraq, or any other issue that could sensitize any side of this debate. I have opinions on these matters, but I do not have authority to reprsent the military...so I'll stay quiet on them.

But I will make some of my observations known.

Everyone where I am stationed is a person, everyone has a personality. All of them have beliefs, ideas, and inspirations that reflect those of civilian society. I've run into both liberal and conservative, green and libertarian.

I want to make it clear, they are people. Just like every single Iraqi, American, European, or anyone else.

As people, their reactions to Iraq are mixed. Certainly some don't want to go there (or go back there) and get shot at, and some want to go do what they believe is right. Regardless, each and every single one of them recognizes an important fact.

Everyone here has taken an oath, signed a contract, and voluntarily given up that right to choose. Every one recognizes that he or she is a willing piece of a political tool. And not one of them advocates brutal murder of inocent people.

I have yet to hear a single person idealize killing someone because they aren't white (the military is actually pretty diverse itself now), because they aren't christian (the militarry is actually pretty diverse itself now), or because they aren't American (the military is actually pretty damn diverse now).

In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find a group of people who more hate abuses that some of their comrads in arms commit. There is actually a very nasty prison just for these certain types of criminals if it can be justified.

Again, I am not here to comment on justice (thats for the courts to decide), law (thats for our elected representatives), or how and why an action is carried out (that is for my CINC). I believe and trust in those organizations, made of imperfect people, to sort out the right thing to do on that level.

But from my observations at about the lowest possible level of the US military, I think I can safely say:

Any accusations that we are here to murder innocent people for money, or on the basis of race, religion, or other label, are biased, blind loads of political feces. I take offense at any comment that suggests my fellow service members or I revel in murder, torture, rape, theft, or any other crime...or that any of us are "poor, missguided, brainwashed saps doing someone elses dirtywork." There is no truth in that, only blind hypocracy or trollish flamebaiting.



So before this debate is over, I'd like to remind everyone in this forum that we are all people.

The Iraqi's? All people.
The US military? Made of people.
The media? Yup, more people.

You, me, everyone. We are all people. There is no vast conspiricy on either side, we are all people.

Lets remember that before we make more accusations.


Very well stated . I am a person who is pretty much against the war, but I respect the soldiers who have gone, here is why.
I spent some time in Bosnia-Hercegovina,visted there in 1998,1999, 2000, 2001,and I saw how American soldiers conducted themselves. The soldiers I observed were professional, and did what they are supposed to do. I could see too, how American soldiers carried themselves there, and I respect that. The people who say the very worst things about American soldiers as a means of discussing the war are in most cases people who have not been someplace American soldiers have had to go. There are times when it is a damned good thing Americans go some place or other that most of my fellow citizens could not find on a map. There are times when it is a terrible idea, either way, as you so well stated, soldiers are people, people in an often thankless, always dangerous job. Even in a bad war, even in a war which should not have happened, it makes a difference what sort of men go. If the American soldier were a less professional, less dedicated kind of person, well this whole mess would be even worse.
Another thing too, while I have my opinions about Iraq, and whether America should be there, I don't feel qualified to say much, you see I've never been to Iraq, and I don't personally know too many Iraqis. As for the Balkans situation, I feel far more qualified to speak, to have an opinion, because I was there, and I speak the language. How much of an opinion I feel qualified to share is directly tied to what I know and what is my experience.
Before I went to Bosnia, I was very unsure whether the U.S. should have been involved, after I went there, I had a very different take on things. So that trip really showed me that I should withold judgement.
People need to be informed, and know what they are talking about, and I think people really in general should learn to discuss things with a lot less acrimony and hostility than I've seen in the U.S. of late. I have personally seen, with my own eyes what happens when people don't discuss things in a civil way.
You did a good job of demonstrating civil discourse on issues. I appreciate that.
Thank you for your service to the United States.

That's a group of protestors who specifically dress that way. They don't do it fo fear, exactly; it's just part of the job. They were at the anti-war rally I went to in Pittsburgh a couple weeks ago; I forget the name of their organization.

Relax, man.

I have never seen this behavoir in America. I see protesters every day. Both in person and on the news. The only time I have ever seen protesters covering their face is the Ku Klux Klan - but those guys are complete pussies to begin with. If they had any real courage to match their convictions they wouldn't be wearing masks to begin with.

I think you have honestly taken something out of context and perhaps blown it out of proportion. Perhaps the people you saw covering their faces weren't part of the protest to begin with and they did not want to be seen on TV. Many protests take place near courthouses where there are people who would much rather not be seen on TV because they are appearing in court for embarrassing offenses like DUIs.

Protesting is a form of attention seeking behavoir. I highly doubt people are covering their faces. If you have any video or picture links, please provide them. I'm curious to see what you're talking about.

They were Holding Signs, and yelling...till the camera came. They are protesting to let there voice be heard to the Governemnt, but if the boss sees them on TV, he could fire them if he wants to.

That's a group of protestors who specifically dress that way. They don't do it fo fear, exactly; it's just part of the job. They were at the anti-war rally I went to in Pittsburgh a couple weeks ago; I forget the name of their organization.

Relax, man.

Yea...I can make irrational excuses for stuff too...btw, it was BBC.

I better tell her and her family to stop practicing her religion then. Of course, that would be violating her civil rights.

So then, her father prays 5 times a day? They go to the Mosque in the region and she wears a real scarf on her head? You sure her mother doesn't wear sexy clothing? Her parents and her don't drink? You sure she doesn't go to parties?

Iranians are barely seen as arab.

Yea...I can make irrational excuses for stuff too...btw, it was BBC.*Sigh* Have you even been to one of these rallies? Talked to one of these people? If the people he's talking about were wearing black clothing accented with red - in the form of bandanas and other accessories - then he's talking about an organization of people that have attended a number of protests across the United States. And it sounds like that's his description.

EDIT: Here. This is what I'm talking about.
http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2005/03/313789.jpg

*Sigh* Have you even been to one of these rallies? Talked to one of these people? If the people he's talking about were wearing black clothing accented with red - in the form of bandanas and other accessories - then he's talking about an organization of people that have attended a number of protests across the United States. And it sounds like that's his description.

Oh... those guys. I think they are called Black Block anarchists. They do extreme stuff like violent confrontation, excessive property damage, etc. I can understand why they hide their identity - they could do some time and be heavily fined.

So.. Morocco? Are these the guys you saw?

Okay, now what should I feel if an Iraqi kills a bunch of iraqi women and children?
That the US should do that instead?

They were Holding Signs, and yelling...till the camera came. They are protesting to let there voice be heard to the Governemnt, but if the boss sees them on TV, he could fire them if he wants to.

Most companies have something called Emplyment at Will. You usually sign your agreement to this before starting emplyment with any company. It means, you can fired at any timefor any reason. Meaning, the boss can fire youfor any reason anyway.

So then, her father prays 5 times a day? They go to the Mosque in the region and she wears a real scarf on her head? You sure her mother doesn't wear sexy clothing? Her parents and her don't drink? You sure she doesn't go to parties?

Iranians are barely seen as arab.

Maybe you should quit second-guessing someone you don't know a damn thing about, hmmmmmmmmm?

Wazzu Elysium - First, let me say thank you for your service and sacrifice. I'm not an American (Yet), but I appreciate the work you and your comrades* are doing to secure the safety of myself here in England, and of my friends in the US.

* No connotations of Communism intended. xD

I am a US service member.

While I don't formally represent the US, US military, or US government, my actions and words do reflect on it, even when I speak only of my own beliefs.

As such, I will NOT make comments about my commander in chief, the possible reasons for making war in Iraq, or any other issue that could sensitize any side of this debate. I have opinions on these matters, but I do not have authority to reprsent the military...so I'll stay quiet on them.

But I will make some of my observations known.

Everyone where I am stationed is a person, everyone has a personality. All of them have beliefs, ideas, and inspirations that reflect those of civilian society. I've run into both liberal and conservative, green and libertarian.

I want to make it clear, they are people. Just like every single Iraqi, American, European, or anyone else.

As people, their reactions to Iraq are mixed. Certainly some don't want to go there (or go back there) and get shot at, and some want to go do what they believe is right. Regardless, each and every single one of them recognizes an important fact.

Everyone here has taken an oath, signed a contract, and voluntarily given up that right to choose. Every one recognizes that he or she is a willing piece of a political tool. And not one of them advocates brutal murder of inocent people.

I have yet to hear a single person idealize killing someone because they aren't white (the military is actually pretty diverse itself now), because they aren't christian (the militarry is actually pretty diverse itself now), or because they aren't American (the military is actually pretty damn diverse now).

In fact, I think you would be hard pressed to find a group of people who more hate abuses that some of their comrads in arms commit. There is actually a very nasty prison just for these certain types of criminals if it can be justified.

Again, I am not here to comment on justice (thats for the courts to decide), law (thats for our elected representatives), or how and why an action is carried out (that is for my CINC). I believe and trust in those organizations, made of imperfect people, to sort out the right thing to do on that level.

But from my observations at about the lowest possible level of the US military, I think I can safely say:

Any accusations that we are here to murder innocent people for money, or on the basis of race, religion, or other label, are biased, blind loads of political feces. I take offense at any comment that suggests my fellow service members or I revel in murder, torture, rape, theft, or any other crime...or that any of us are "poor, missguided, brainwashed saps doing someone elses dirtywork." There is no truth in that, only blind hypocracy or trollish flamebaiting.



So before this debate is over, I'd like to remind everyone in this forum that we are all people.

The Iraqi's? All people.
The US military? Made of people.
The media? Yup, more people.

You, me, everyone. We are all people. There is no vast conspiricy on either side, we are all people.

Lets remember that before we make more accusations.

Sorry, I'm not falling for that. It's a volunteer army, not a conscript army. If you joined up, you're just as bad as Bush and his cronies.

Sorry, I'm not falling for that. It's a volunteer army, not a conscript army. If you joined up, you're just as bad as Bush and his cronies.

It is a volunteer military. If people here believed they were suporting crimes or intolerance, they wouldn't be here. I couldn't see that until I actually joined and met and talked with others here.

Before you continue to label service members as biggoted murderers here, maybe you should find a bar that some go to (we are deployed all around the world) and talk to a few. I doubt you'll find a single racist, sexist, *-ist person among them, nor a single murderer, rapist, theif, etc.

Just try and listen for a bit.

Unless of course your simply trolling.

Those could have very well been the guys...but there were others wearing masks...sorry.

Those could have very well been the guys...but there were others wearing masks...sorry.Sorry for saying that I was a liar who was living in a fantasy land so as to delude myself into thinking that all is well, and delude others as well?

Thank you so much. How gracious of you.

Just wanted to butt in here about them covering their faces. They actually give out or sell bandanas and the like before or during the protest. It is intended to make people like you make the conclusion that their freedom of expression is being suppressed.

it is? that's never what i've meant when i've masked up...

Oh... those guys. I think they are called Black Block anarchists. They do extreme stuff like violent confrontation, excessive property damage, etc. I can understand why they hide their identity - they could do some time and be heavily fined.

a couple points of clarification. its 'bloc', without the k. a black bloc is a tactic, not an organization. and while the people involved in a good bloc are typically willing to defend themselves against police aggression and engage in property destruction against corporate or government criminals, it isn't really all that extreme compared to the amount of violence used by the state on a daily basis.

Thank God we live in a nation
where we can protest
and they still call President Bush
a dictator, I come from a nation
where no one can protest anything
and those few that do are delt with,
and there are still people who defend
and excuse that nation.

I watched the news today, oh boy. People, in america were protesting, you know, your average protester. Dam the bank, not River...Blood for Oil...Bush is a ****ing Nazi. Fighting for Peace is like ****ing for Virginity...

Well, then I saw a protestor wearing a hoodie, in a hot spring day, with a bandana wrapped around his face, like Clint Eastwood, in the good, the bad and the Ugly. He was putting his hand on the camera, and walking by quickly, and as they continued with this broadcast (National News, not American filth propaganda) In secluded, different areas people hid there faces with different kinds of clothing, and material, and kept away from the camera. In AMERICA.

Obviously, these people did this for there jobs. You can believe what you want about America, but I have a friend/ex-co-worker, who is a moroccan. He has a Unique different name (not mo, or Ali-Bawa, or Kashklash, or Kakistandoodoo), after 9/11, when he was looking for a job, for three months he never got a call back. After one day (we're talking about a well qualified individual) he changed his name to an american name (which started with the same letter and was close to his real name, lets say "steve" although that is way off) so Steve changes his name, re-sends his applications through Headhunters, and in three days, he got two call backs, and one scheduled interview. I have another co-worker, who, in his last job was sitting in his cubical, when two men came right into his hallway, and were talking about the war in Iraq. They were saying regular stuff, and he made one comment, telling a guy he agreed with him (they're both white) the next day, he was called into his bosses office and told not to talk about foreign issues (but it's okay for white people to do so...and all of a sudden, talking about foreign issues means agreeing with someone) the next day, over the PA the boss said his name, excluded him, and said if "anyone doesn't want to work with "____" he can pack his things and leave"

You should not be afraid to be caught on Camera protesting, not in america. You should not be afraid to speak your voice. Hell, they have Nazi marches in a certain Jewish part of town every year, with Nazi flags (I live in Chigaco, btw) and I am completetly ok with this, because that is a form of oppresion, in America, you let the idiots speak.
If I didn't have anything else to worry about other than this, I think I would just crawl into a hole and pull it in after me.

Sorry, I'm not falling for that. It's a volunteer army, not a conscript army. If you joined up, you're just as bad as Bush and his cronies.
You're talking about my brothers there, Ace. :mad:

You're talking about my brothers there, Ace. :mad:

How tribal of you, Eutrusca.

How tribal of you, Eutrusca.
Yeah. So? I belong to several: my rather large family, my community, my brothers and sisters in arms, my nation, the human race.

"Americans Protesting in fear"

Poor babies! Scared to stand up and be counted like a man, are they? Tsk! At least the assholes "protesting" the Vietnam war didn't hide behind masks. I'll give 'em that much, but I still despise them.

"Americans Protesting in fear"

Poor babies! Scared to stand up and be counted like a man, are they? Tsk! At least the assholes "protesting" the Vietnam war didn't hide behind masks. I'll give 'em that much, but I still despise them.

Why do you hate America?

So then, her father prays 5 times a day? They go to the Mosque in the region and she wears a real scarf on her head? You sure her mother doesn't wear sexy clothing? Her parents and her don't drink? You sure she doesn't go to parties?

Iranians are barely seen as arab.

It seems to me that you're the one that may be intolerant here. What's the difference between a scarf and a real scarf? Who are you to decide that Iranians are not as religious or pious as the Arabs? You're just as oppressive as the people you claim are oppressing you.