NationStates Jolt Archive

For all of you who can't suppress your urge to debate the Pope's and the Catholic church's doctrines, actions, inactions, or just anything you don't like about the man and his faith, bring it here.

The 5th I've seen today

i just like the title. pope. pope pope pope. try it. it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. it kind of blorts out of the mouth, despite that not being a word.

The 5th I've seen today

Those were memorial threads that have been merged. In spite of mod warnings, though, some people just can't stand to not try to debate in the memorial thread. So here is the debate thread. Have at it.

Those were memorial threads that have been merged. In spite of mod warnings, though, some people just can't stand to not try to debate in the memorial thread. So here is the debate thread. Have at it.
Ahhh, ok.

I hate the pope for is anti-anti-pregnancypills

In that case, I'd like to make my opinions on JPII clear now.

As a Catholic growing up in a liberal upbringing, I can say I disagreed with him on many issues, most noteably on contraception. Despite this, I have the utmost respect for him for all he has done to unite the Church, other religions, and people in general.

John Paul II was a true "warrior of peace".

Alright, he it goes.

Well, personally I've always found this pope to be way too conservative on some issues, but I knew he intended it well and only wanted what he thought to be the best. He was a catholic leader, so his views were actually to be expected and to be respected.

And actually, at the end of the line, he wasn't so far off at all. As we see the morals and values being diminished in Europe, I kind of gotten to understand their view better. Divorces are rampant, euthanasia is being performed on children and non-lethally injured people in some countries, abortions are being carried out way too easy in some parts of the world.
What changed my views was when an ex-girlfriend had an abortion when I was with here, but I had never even known she was pregnant of me and I wouldn't have wanted this. Unfortenately it was already done without my knowledge and it put me into a depression for almost a year... I also couldn't understand the abortion could just go ahead without the father knowing or agreeing to it. I never had anything against abortions or euthanasia, but somewhere a line has been crossed in some countries and it looks like both life-ending procedures are being carried out more easily and more frequently ...
Maybe he'd seen it coming.

Alright, he it goes.

Well, personally I've always found this pope to be way too conservative on some issues, but I knew he intended it well and only wanted what he thought to be the best. He was a catholic leader, so his views were actually to be expected and to be respected.

And actually, at the end of the line, he wasn't so far off at all. As we see the morals and values being diminished in Europe, I kind of gotten to understand their view better. Divorces are rampant, euthanasia is being performed on children and non-lethally injured people in some countries, abortions are being carried out way too easy in some parts of the world.
What changed my views was when an ex-girlfriend had an abortion when I was with here, but I had never even known she was pregnant of me and I wouldn't have wanted this. Unfortenately it was already done without my knowledge and it put me into a depression for almost a year... I also couldn't understand the abortion could just go ahead without the father knowing or agreeing to it. I never had anything against abortions or euthanasia, but somewhere a line has been crossed in some countries and it looks like both life-ending procedures are being carried out more easily and more frequently ...
Maybe he'd seen it coming.

1) You don't have a say in the abortion, it's not your business.

2) Europe is far more moral that the US.

This is from my own thread:

It may be a bit distasteful to talk about the Pope's successor right after the Pope dies. However, such talk is inevitable, as the new pope will be elected soon.
I personally think that the next pope must continue the legacy of John Paul II. That he was a great pope that should be emulated at the top is undeniable. However, big problems were forming toward the end of his papacy.
The end of communism that John Paul II helped to bring about was a boon for Catholicsm, indeed for all of Christianity. The world became more free and open to ideas, and Catholicsm specifically has grown rapidly in Eastern Europe. In addition, the church in Africa and Asia has been growing at a breathtaking rate.
But there has been a problem in the core of Catholicsm: Western Europe and America. Western Europe has been shedding Catholics like a snake sheds its skin, but I profess ignorance at the exact situation. Instead, I will focus on the US and Canada.
Catholicsm has remained more or less intact in members, and is actually growing in the South. But the problem lies in the deep divides that have been created. The Pope was the first to call for a "Culture of Life", yet many Americans seem to not want that. Most American Catholics support the death penalty, abortion, euthanasia, birth control, and most recently, most American Catholics supported Michael Schaivo. In addition, there has been a left/right divide in Catholicsm, each professing to celebrate a "purer" Christianity. Both pick and choose what to agree with the Vatican on.
Whichever side is right is irrelevant to the fact that a problem exists. The Pope, as great of a guy as he is, did little to address this. He also failed to address the even bigger crisis in Western Europe.
The issue of Islam is also sticky. The Pope did much to address this. I just want to see a pope that continues to engage the Muslims. In particular, I want him to help protect and preserve the Eastern Churches of the Middle East that are under attack by Muslim extremists.
Finally, I myself have a problem that I try to look to the Vatican for guidance, but their answer is inconclusive: why are their social teachings so different from other Christians. Those who know me will know that I am a staunch supporter of capitalism, and firmly believe that it helps all in the long run. Yet not since Pope Pius IX has this issue been addressed thouroughly, and he simply said something about a "third way" between capitalism and socialism. But I have questions that remain unanswered. Do they still believe that money is the root of all evil? Is a profit motive allowed, and if so, when does it turn into greed?
For these reasons, I'd like to see a pope that is proactive on these issues. Too liberal of a pope would alienate newer Catholics. Too conservative of a pope may be the end of the churches in Europe and America. We need someone who is intellectual and authoritative. We also don't need a pope from Africa, for while that may be a good idea, the church there is far too young to rapidly Africanize the institution. We need someone from a more established church, like in Latin America or Europe.
The church needs change. JP2 was a great man, but a few issues developed around the end of his life that he couldn't control. But we need to keep one aspect of his legacy alive: we Catholics must always maintain dialogue with eachother, and our brothers and sisters in Christ.

And btw, I endorse Christoph Schonborn for pope. He may be a bit young, but if that is the case, I have a feeling that this pope may create guidelines for retirement, and not resignation. They already have them for cardinals, so why not for popes?

1) You don't have a say in the abortion, it's not your business.

Takes two to tango. The responsibility for the life and, in this case, death of the child is one shared by both parents.

Takes two to tango. The responsibility for the life and, in this case, death of the child is one shared by both parents.

It's not an issue that two people can meet halfway, though. Who gets preference when the man and the woman disagree?

In that case, I'd like to make my opinions on JPII clear now.

As a Catholic growing up in a liberal upbringing, I can say I disagreed with him on many issues, most noteably on contraception. Despite this, I have the utmost respect for him for all he has done to unite the Church, other religions, and people in general.

John Paul II was a true "warrior of peace".
Now, now. Take these kind of opinions and stick them in the memorial thread!
Sheesh! Some people just have to try to debate the positive things in this thread!

I understand that a man cannot make the choice for the woman in the case of abortion. However, since the woman can choose to get out of the responsibility of the pregnancy, then child support laws should be changed to allow a man to opt out of supporting an unwanted pregnancy. The woman can choose to take responsibility for the child or not, the man should have the same option.

But we're getting off topic . . .

I understand that a man cannot make the choice for the woman in the case of abortion. However, since the woman can choose to get out of the responsibility of the pregnancy, then child support laws should be changed to allow a man to opt out of supporting an unwanted pregnancy. The woman can choose to take responsibility for the child or not, the man should have the same option.
That doesn't make sense. Both people are responsible for the financial aspects of raising a child, but only the woman is responsible for carrying the child, since, well, only women can be pregnant.

I don't see why some nut, who's never allowed to do it, should have the right to tell me that sex before marriage, or even using condoms, is wrong. Honestly, I mean wtf. That is sure as hell not any pope's business.

No surprise that Austria had a new record in people who left the catholic church last year, same goes for Germany over the past years.

But then again, I'm not part of this weird club called catholic church, and I'm glad about that.

That doesn't make sense. Both people are responsible for the financial aspects of raising a child, but only the woman is responsible for carrying the child, since, well, only women can be pregnant.

But a woman can choose to opt out of all of the aspects of raising a child by having an abortion if she does not want to have the child. The man gets no say in the matter. If she chooses to have the child, he is responsible. If she chooses not to have the child (which is also his), he cannot stop her.

Though the woman carries the child, it is still just as much his own. However, he gets no say in whether the child is born or not, and no say in whether he wants to be responsible.

I don't see why some nut, who's never allowed to do it, should have the right to tell me that sex before marriage, or even using condoms, is wrong. Honestly, I mean wtf. That is sure as hell not any pope's business.

No surprise that Austria had a new record in people who left the catholic church last year, same goes for Germany over the past years.

But then again, I'm not part of this weird club called catholic church, and I'm glad about that.

You Germanic?

Though the woman carries the child, it is still just as much his own.
By virtue of the fact that the woman carries it, during the time she is carrying it the fetus is not as much the man's. It only becomes so after the child is born.