NationStates Jolt Archive

In case you haven't hear yet, the pope has died today. Thats about all I have to say for now.

He will be missed.

Just happened.

Meh.

About time, may he rest in peace. Now we can get back to hearing real news on the TV.

He's really dead now?

I just heard that on ITV News, apparantly an Italian news agency reported it. They said that the Vatican confirmed it, too.

are you sure he died?

That's good.

He was old and frail. He seemed to be suffering quite a bit lately. It's better that he is dead rather than preserved on life support. Now he can rest in peace.

Yes, he actuly has died, it was just announced by the Vatican. It's very sad indeed.

are you sure he died?

Cardinals are giving speeches on how nice a guy he was right this moment on CNN.

hes not dead

get the facts first

I'll quote what I posted in the other thread:
I just heard that on ITV News, apparantly an Italian news agency reported it. They said that the Vatican confirmed it, too.

yeah nevermind, I just saw it on cnn.com

Now we can get back to more important things, like who wore what at the last red carpet event, and the jackson trial.

May he rest in peace.

Yeah.

R.I.P.

hes not dead

get the facts first

He IS dead

get the facts first...

May he rest in peace.

He did have a good run at things, you must admit.

Yep. It's on top in a big red banner. I missed it at first.

He's dead.

Yes, he actuly has died, it was just announced by the Vatican. It's very sad indeed.

Why is it sad? He was 84 years old. Lived more life than any of us probably ever will. Lived in the lap of luxury, never wanted for any thing while he was Pope. We all could only ever dream to be so lucky to have half the privileged life he did.

But there was that Italian news agency that said he died yesterday, I wonder if it was the same one

I just heard that on ITV News, apparantly an Italian news agency reported it. They said that the Vatican confirmed it, too.

You are five minutes to late dude. There are also 2 other threads covering this.

It's about friggin time.

Why is it sad? He was 84 years old. Lived more life than any of us probably ever will. Lived in the lap of luxury, never wanted for any thing while he was Pope. We all could only ever dream to be so lucky to have half the privileged life he did.

Yeah, that's true I guess, but still it's sad and also, I guess it just seems odd, mainly because I have known none other as pope.

Have a look here. (http://deadpool.rotten.com/)

Yes, we too can have a morbid fascination with those to become deceased...

Though if the Pope is dead, and is guaranteed heaven, why mourn?

But there was that Italian news agency that said he died yesterday, I wonder if it was the same one

Nah, that was a different Pope. The real one died moments ago. :D

My condolences to all the catholics out there.

Why is it sad? He was 84 years old. Lived more life than any of us probably ever will. Lived in the lap of luxury, never wanted for any thing while he was Pope. We all could only ever dream to be so lucky to have half the privileged life he did.
Well, at least I've been laid. :)


Yes, that was terribly inappropriate, I should stick to what I said in the other thread:

May he rest in peace.

He did have a good run at things, you must admit.

Well he definately held in there, thats all I can say. I was expecting it last night.

For me a great man that did so much good has died today, may he rest in peace!

Well, at least I've been laid. :)


Yes, that was terribly inappropriate, I should stick to what I said in the other thread:

Actually, I think you bring up an interesting question.

One that deserves it's own thread.

The Holy Father, who led the Roman Catholic Church for more than a quarter century and became history's most-traveled pope died at 84 at 21:37 on Saturday evening.

Meh.
I wouldn't have said better.

Well, at least I've been laid. :)


Yes, that was terribly inappropriate, I should stick to what I said in the other thread:

Bah, he was just the pope.. not Jesus or any thing, just another human being who got rich off of other people's suffering and naivety. Don't worry they'll replace him in a few weeks.

He died at something like... 9:37 PM, Rome hour.

Already posted many times. I wish people would check before posting.

(FACE IT PEOPLE! I GOT IN FIRST! :p :sniper: )

*sigh*

The leader of my religion(well, my families religin) is dead, and it's sad, but also a bit relieving. He did many things in his life, and he did not deserve to suffer in his final days as he did. But at least his suffering is over now, and(if Catholicism is right), is sitting somewhere near god. Not at his right hand, of course, but somewhere near.

So you missed the 2 million other threads about this...


EDIT: And this is said already...

He was a good man that did great things for the world. He will be sorely missed by many. May he Rest in Peace.

Actually, I think you bring up an interesting question.

One that deserves it's own thread.
There was a question there?

Like what's better, living in the lap of luxury for your entire life but never having an orgasm (or at least not a guilt-free one) or doing whatever and at least being able to have sex and actual relationships with people...? I mean, I know he had all his advisors and the like, but it must have been lonely at the top.

Bah, he was just the pope.. not Jesus or any thing, just another human being who got rich off of other people's suffering and naivety. Don't worry they'll replace him in a few weeks.
Still not really something appropriate to say for the death of anyone... "god's messenger" or not.

Nah, that was a different Pope. The real one died moments ago. :D

Oh, so that was like the Protestant Pope then...

There was a question there?

Like what's better, living in the lap of luxury for your entire life but never having an orgasm (or at least not a guilt-free one) or doing whatever and at least being able to have sex and actual relationships with people...? I mean, I know he had all his advisors and the like, but it must have been lonely at the top.

I dunno, I hear he was pretty close to his personal secretary...lol :)

Even though I'm not the most avid supporter of Christianity, by any means, I am glad the man's suffering is over and he has gone to 'a better place' if there is one. I wouldn't wish this amount of suffering on anyone, but at least he stuck it out with his own beliefs and did not ask for Euthanasia.

Now it will be quite interesting to see who the next Pope is. It will certainly be funny to see the looks on many of the more fanatical Church member's faces if the next Pope is black :D.

Now it will be quite interesting to see who the next Pope is. It will certainly be funny to see the looks on many of the more fanatical Church member's faces if the next Pope is black :D.


The next Pope could very well be black, there are a number or african cardinals so could be... Pope John Paul III!

Still not really something appropriate to say for the death of anyone... "god's messenger" or not.

If I'm not mistaken other members of the Catholic regilion appoint the pope, not God, not Jeasus.. that's a fact. The pope is a self nominated rep of god. I don't remember god sending out the press release..

Any way.. I'm just happy it's over and now we can get back to more important things that are going on in the world.

Why is it sad? He was 84 years old. Lived more life than any of us probably ever will. Lived in the lap of luxury, never wanted for any thing while he was Pope. We all could only ever dream to be so lucky to have half the privileged life he did.

Shut up. He served the people more than most ever do. He didn't ask for or need anything he was given. He was selfless. This is coming from a Muslim.

He's really dead now?

Yes he is :'(

hes not dead

get the facts first

We do. He's dead.

Shut up. He served the people more than most ever do. He didn't ask for or need anything he was given. He was selfless. This is coming from a Muslim.

If that's what you believe, go for it. Doesn't make it the truth. The catholic church has been lying for years to 3rd world countries about what causes aids, they discriminate against people's personal freedoms. He was old. He had a good run. It's not really that sad and he will be replaced in a few weeks. So he wasn't that important to be replaced so easily.

Why is it sad? He was 84 years old. Lived more life than any of us probably ever will. Lived in the lap of luxury, never wanted for any thing while he was Pope. We all could only ever dream to be so lucky to have half the privileged life he did.


That’s your opinion and although I strongly disagree with it I respect it. What I cannot understand is why do you have to write such things in a thread that it’s about its death and where people usually express their regrets. It is disrespectful to the man who died and to those who actually cared for him.

If I'm not mistaken other members of the Catholic regilion appoint the pope, not God, not Jeasus.. that's a fact. The pope is a self nominated rep of god. I don't remember god sending out the press release..

Any way.. I'm just happy it's over and now we can get back to more important things that are going on in the world.
Well, that wasn't my point though.

I was just saying that pointing out that someone never got laid when they recently died is a rather inappropriate thing to say.

I cannot understand is why do you have to write such things in a thread that it’s about its death and where people usually express their regrets. It is disrespectful to the man who died and to those who actually cared for him.

The truth doesn't die with the person.

iMerge.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Im not catholic... i dont know much about him. But, the truth is, he is dead, but now he is in a better place. So dont be sad to long over it. :) :(

I heard about half an hour ago. I nearly cried.

Though you can disagree with his stances on many issues, you must admit that he was a great man who defied conventional thinking - with his staunch anti-abortion and anti-secularist views on the one hand, and his equally staunch anti-war and anti-poverty stances on the other. Many disagreed with him - even I, a faithful practising Catholic, disagreed with many of his viewpoints - but you must respect them. He reached out to the other great monotheist religions (Islam and Judaism) in an effort to heal old wounds and proceed together, in faith, towards the future.

Karol Wojtyla - rest in peace. May you find comfort with God the Father.

I heard about half an hour ago. I nearly cried.

Though you can disagree with his stances on many issues, you must admit that he was a great man who defied conventional thinking - with his staunch anti-abortion and anti-secularist views on the one hand, and his equally staunch anti-war and anti-poverty stances on the other. Many disagreed with him - even I, a faithful practising Catholic, disagreed with many of his viewpoints - but you must respect them. He reached out to the other great monotheist religions (Islam and Judaism) in an effort to heal old wounds and proceed together, in faith, towards the future.

Karol Wojtyla - rest in peace. May you find comfort with God the Father.

He has made a huge impact on the world like you said, really I would even say he was the most influential man of his time.

Though you can disagree with his stances on many issues, you must admit that he was a great man who defied conventional thinking - with his staunch anti-abortion and anti-secularist views on the one hand, and his equally staunch anti-war and anti-poverty stances on the other.

He was a walking contradiction. Look up the last 26 years of him being the Pope.

He was a walking contradiction. Look up the last 26 years of him being the Pope.
Contradiction? Only if you believe in the LEFT and the RIGHT as two mutally destructive entities. That kind of attitude, good sir, will be the bane of the world. It is the ability to transcend LEFT and RIGHT that helps us - as John Paul II was the greatest example of. Don't be a closed-minded fool.

Well he definately held in there, thats all I can say. I was expecting it last night.

I stayed up til 5 am waiting for his death. Now my schedule is thrown off.

Grrr! :mad:

Contradiction? Only if you believe in the LEFT and the RIGHT as two mutally destructive entities. That kind of attitude, good sir, will be the bane of the world. It is the ability to transcend LEFT and RIGHT that helps us - as John Paul II was the greatest example of. Don't be a closed-minded fool.

No, having false idols to worship such as the pope will be the bane of the world. With their own agenda's. Like I said, I don't recall god/jesus sending out a press release saying he was any more important in the grand scheme of things than you or I.

A great man, sorely missed. Even though I'm an athiest

The truth doesn't die with the person.

Exactly ! So why not give it a rest for today ? Let them burry him before you start criticizing him. Again this has nothing to do with the debate it’s just that for some it meant something and it just not appropriate.

PS: I promise I won’t bug you even if you continue , have a nice day.

No, having false idols to worship such as the pope will be the bane of the world. With their own agenda's. Like I said, I don't recall god/jesus sending out a press release saying he was any more important in the grand scheme of things than you or I.
"False idols"? By your measure, any leader is a false idol. John Paul II may have been a holy man and a great leader, but an "idol" he was not. What Jesus did say was to Peter, and He said, "You are my rock, and upon this rock I shall build my church." The Popes, the Bishops of Rome, are the inheritors of that role. So actually, in effect, Jesus did.

Don't argue about things which you do not know.

Did the pope die of AIDs? Because thats what they said in Team America..

Hang on, isnt the pope supposed to be a virgin? Ok so he cant have aids. unless he did heroin and used an infected needle. which is highly unlikely.

So, i think i shall shut up. A good man died today, that is all. He will be sorely missed, more so by some than by others.

Each to their own etc.

Ok now i'll shut up.

First of all. Yes. John Paul II has died. So it says here. I just confirmed it on Yahoo ! News. No. I have never really met the man :( . But he has left the objective for his followers at the Vatican. His heart and kidneys have failed really rapidly. So it says here.
I understand to which it pains him. But no longer will he be suffering that pain. He's with Jesus now. I'm not sure how these people will run it. But there will be another Pope to finish John's legacy. I understood the extent that another Priest of the Polska (Polish) speaking language blessed him as he laid there for his final moments. Now for me. I am giving more than just a moment of silence to the Holy Father. I'm giving him 6 hours of silence and respect to the man.

"False idols"? By your measure, any leader is a false idol. John Paul II may have been a holy man and a great leader, but an "idol" he was not. What Jesus did say was to Peter, and He said, "You are my rock, and upon this rock I shall build my church." The Popes, the Bishops of Rome, are the inheritors of that role. So actually, in effect, Jesus did.

Don't argue about things which you do not know.

If the Pope wasn't the pure definition of a false idol, I'm not sure what in this world was.

However, with that being said, I will leave it here for now, so the sheeple can mourn.

Yes, the Pope is dead. The bell has been rung, prayers are being read, he is dead.
And I think a Latino will be the next pope.

He had insensative, authoritarian and in my opinion very disagreeable views. I think he was a bad person and I will not mourn his passing at all. I'm sorry if that offends any Catholics, but I'm not going to fake respect as that would be even more disrespectful than being honest.
I suppose this could be a good thing for the church, as his successor might be much better.

May the Pope Rest in peace.

Poland and the rest of the world has lost a great man.

Although he is the only pope I've known, he is one of the best. He reached out to everyone, which was good.

God bless JPII :(

If the Pope wasn't the pure definition of a false idol, I'm not sure what in this world was.

However, with that being said, I will leave it here for now, so the sheeple can mourn.
So essentially you discount everything I say and just leave?

*CLAPS*

Nice going. By your logic, Marx and Lenin and all the American presidents, the kings and queens of countless countries, are just as much false "idols" as the Pope was. You cannot worship a man who was appointed. That's like me bowing before my Member of Parliament. You can, however, respect his authority and accept his properly constituted leadership.

The "sheep" may have lost their shepherd, but another shepherd, hopefully equally humble, equally wise, is coming to take his place.

A reminder people: This is a rememberance/memorial thread.

If you want to debate the actions or policies oe the late John Paul II, then please start a separate thread for debate. I will not be merging memorial threads with debate threads.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

A reminder people: This is a rememberance/memorial thread.

If you want to debate the actions or policies oe the late John Paul II, then please start a separate thread for debate. I will not be merging memorial threads with debate threads.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator
*COWERS*

Sorry. But I can't let things like that go unresponded.

A reminder people: This is a rememberance/memorial thread.

If you want to debate the actions or policies oe the late John Paul II, then please start a separate thread for debate. I will not be merging memorial threads with debate threads.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator
Thank you Cog

Finally, I've been waiting for that sack of flesh to die for weeks. Beer's on me! :)

may he rest in peace. from everyone here in Ireland

May our pontiff rest in peace. And may life go on within the Church.

Pray that he is bound for Heaven and is in purgatory, not accursed to the depths of Hell. God knows he needs the prayers upon his soul.

May God rest his mericful soul. As soon as I heard this I pulled over the side of the road and said a prayer for him. He was a great man who tried to better the world. He was the most unselfish man I have ever seen and he truely lived his life closer to Jesus's teaching than any one of us could've hoped. I only hope that I can learn from him and live my life closer to Jesus's teaching. As for the people who doesn't have enough respect to not drag Pop John Paul the II name through the mud as his suffering has ended, I forgive you.

The pope is dead. May he rest in peace now, relieved of the suffering that he went thru the last few weeks of his life. He is with God at last. Let him rest in peace and let us remember his good nature and deeds. Rest in Peace John Paul II. You've deserved it.

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen

Amen!

As my signature tells, may he rest in peace.

Even though i am a protestant instead of a catholic, i greatly appreciated pope John Paul II and i will pray for him.

I am no Catholic but I think if people followed John Paul's example, then the world would probably be an infinitely better place. He was a good man who worked hard and passionately for the things he believed in. He helped reduce religious tensions - he was the first Pope since the Reformation to receive a British monarch so helping Catholicism reconcile with the Anglican Church. He was the first Pope ever to go into a Mosque or to go into a Synagogue. His vision was not one of divisions but of better unity where peoples of all beliefs could live in some sort of harmony.

I think the people slating the Pope in this thread are a disgrace and should hang their heads in shame. Leave a much loved man to his death and let those who want to mourn him do so in peace.

He suffered a lot lately. May he now rest in peace.

If that's what you believe, go for it. Doesn't make it the truth. The catholic church has been lying for years to 3rd world countries about what causes aids, they discriminate against people's personal freedoms. He was old. He had a good run. It's not really that sad and he will be replaced in a few weeks. So he wasn't that important to be replaced so easily.

There have been the same methods for selecting a pope for almost 2000 years. Not important....I've not seen someone with such a lack of sense in such a long time.

If the Pope wasn't the pure definition of a false idol, I'm not sure what in this world was.

However, with that being said, I will leave it here for now, so the sheeple can mourn.

Give some evidence when you make those remarks. You're an awful person. I'm not a Catholic, but I understand the role he's played in making this world better. Apparently, you're too bitter and hateful to see it.

Mortal Kombat Voice:

Fatality!!!

Bye Karol, and thank you for your great example. Not only a pope, but also a real good man.

That's good.

He was old and frail. He seemed to be suffering quite a bit lately. It's better that he is dead rather than preserved on life support. Now he can rest in peace.

Yeah, maybe we shoulda pulled his life support. If we can do that to Terri Schivo we might as well do it to the pope.

Yeah, maybe we shoulda pulled his life support. If we can do that to Terri Schivo we might as well do it to the pope.
As far as I could tell, he wasn't on life support.

I hope the victims of child molesting priests can be more comfortable as the man who allowed the cover-ups and policies of denial dies.
He did do wonderful things but also his action or inaction hurt many.

While I too was not a member of the catholic faith, there is no doubt that Christiandom has lost a great and peaceful crusader. I pray you guys find another like him.

I hope the victims of child molesting priests can be more comfortable as the man who allowed the cover-ups and policies of denial dies.
He did do wonderful things but also his action or inaction hurt many.

Like every man.

BTW, go www.vatican.va to see the Vacancy arms: never seen before now.

Why is some many people happy that John paul is dead. I'm not a Catholic, yet, he was a great man. He inspired some many people, he was such a good man. Why? :(

Why is some many people happy that John paul is dead. I'm not a Catholic, yet, he was a great man. He inspired some many people, he was such a good man. Why? :(

Because some people, out of ignorance and/or apathy, have no respect for others. They prefer to condemn a man who dedicated his entire life promoting peace and unity for the actions of a few others. These are basically the same people who criticize anyone and everyone. They're not worth acknowledging.

I am not catholic. Fact is I disagree strongly with many Catholic tenets and traditions. However, Pope John Paul II was THE greatest and most humane person of our times. He did much to reform the Catholic Church and bring it back to true biblical teaching. If someone else had been Pope instead of him, you would have seen a real cover up in the American Priest Sex Scandals.
His stance against the US invasion of Iraq is well respected because of his consistency. He opposed all wars. Not just the ones involving the US.
He was the strongest force for freedom, democracy, and peace on earth. There will likely, not be a replacement with his dedication to religious reconciliation, peace, and freedom.
It ought to be noted that he brought the Jews and the Catholics together. He was also the church official to apologize for the crusades and the various pogroms against the jews. On one of his visits to the America's he apologized to the native Americans for all the crimes committed against them in the name of Catholicism. At one point, he called for the establishment of a free Palestinian state and an end to all terrorism. During the cold war, he was an ardent opponent of the nuclear arms race. And he is credited with bringing down communism in Eastern Europe. Without Pope John Paul II, Reagan's stand against Communism would have failed. And the east Europeans would still be under oppressive communist governments. While Reagan sabotaged the Soviet internal infrastructure and bankrupted the commies with a quikened arms race, and is credited with winning the cold war, it was actually the Pope who really defeated the communists. He did it the only way you can defeat someone. With moral superiority. Against the weight of something against they had no weapons, the Soviets were forced to relinquish their empire and their hold on Russia.
Regardless of what of your professed religion, beliefs, nationality, or political ideology, you have to respect the man that he was and the goals he tried to accomplish.
I just hope the next guy doesn't go and start undoing all the good that this Pope has accomplished during his 26 year tenure.

I think it is beautiful and fitting, that the Holy Father died while listening to a candle light Mass being celebrated under his windows.

It's a terrible shame.

May g-d be with him, and let him rest in peace.

*snip* Without Pope John Paul II, Reagan's stand against Communism would have failed. And the east Europeans would still be under oppressive communist governments. While Reagan sabotaged the Soviet internal infrastructure and bankrupted the commies with a quikened arms race, and is credited with winning the cold war, it was actually the Pope who really defeated the communists. He did it the only way you can defeat someone. With moral superiority. Against the weight of something against they had no weapons, the Soviets were forced to relinquish their empire and their hold on Russia. *snip*

I was just listening to an interview with a Cardinal that knew the Pope well. He said that Reagan and Pope John Paul talked frequently on the phone and discussed the likely fall of the Berlin Wall and communism while the rest of the world doubted it could happen.

Poor old bugger, it was sick what they were forcing him to do, he hasn't been in a proper state of mind for so long. He was basically dead anyway.

I was just listening to an interview with a Cardinal that knew the Pope well. He said that Reagan and Pope John Paul talked frequently on the phone and discussed the likely fall of the Berlin Wall and communism while the rest of the world doubted it could happen.
They were talking about that last night and all morning. Apparently the two men were very close.

Poor old bugger, it was sick what they were forcing him to do, he hasn't been in a proper state of mind for so long. He was basically dead anyway.
Dead as in being disabled and helpless? Am I the only one with a problem with that view of what constitutes life?

May he go in peace and hopefully he went Muslim when he died.

Here is a short biography taken from the vaticans website, may he rest in peace. I am a member of the Church of Scotland, not a Catholic, however I cried upon hearing his death, John Paul done so many great things in his life, he ended it upon a high note and shall be mourned by the world.


Karol Józef Wojtyła , known as John Paul II since his October 1978 election to the papacy, was born in Wadowice, a small city 50 kilometres from Cracow, on May 18, 1920. He was the second of two sons born to Karol Wojtyła and Emilia Kaczorowska. His mother died in 1929. His eldest brother Edmund, a doctor, died in 1932 and his father, a non-commissioned army officer died in 1941.

He made his First Holy Communion at age 9 and was confirmed at 18. Upon graduation from Marcin Wadowita high school in Wadowice, he enrolled in Cracow's Jagiellonian University in 1938 and in a school for drama.

The Nazi occupation forces closed the university in 1939 and young Karol had to work in a quarry (1940-1944) and then in the Solvay chemical factory to earn his living and to avoid being deported to Germany.

In 1942, aware of his call to the priesthood, he began courses in the clandestine seminary of Cracow, run by Cardinal Adam Stefan Sapieha, archbishop of Cracow. At the same time, Karol Wojtyła was one of the pioneers of the "Rhapsodic Theatre," also clandestine.

After the Second World War, he continued his studies in the major seminary of Cracow, once it had re-opened, and in the faculty of theology of the Jagiellonian University, until his priestly ordination in Cracow on November 1, 1946.

Soon after, Cardinal Sapieha sent him to Rome where he worked under the guidance of the French Dominican, Garrigou-Lagrange. He finished his doctorate in theology in 1948 with a thesis on the topic of faith in the works of St. John of the Cross. At that time, during his vacations, he exercised his pastoral ministry among the Polish immigrants of France, Belgium and Holland.

In 1948 he returned to Poland and was vicar of various parishes in Cracow as well as chaplain for the university students until 1951, when he took up again his studies on philosophy and theology. In 1953 he defended a thesis on "evaluation of the possibility of founding a Catholic ethic on the ethical system of Max Scheler" at Lublin Catholic University. Later he became professor of moral theology and social ethics in the major seminary of Cracow and in the Faculty of Theology of Lublin.

On July 4, 1958, he was appointed Auxiliary Bishop of Cracow by Pope Pius XII, and was consecrated September 28, 1958, in Wawel Cathedral, Cracow, by Archbishop Baziak.

On January 13, 1964, he was nominated Archbishop of Cracow by Pope Paul VI, who made him a cardinal June 26, 1967.

Besides taking part in Vatican Council II with an important contribution to the elaboration of the Constitution Gaudium et spes, Cardinal Wojtyła participated in all the assemblies of the Synod of Bishops.

Since the start of his Pontificate on October 16, 1978, Pope John Paul II has completed 104 pastoral visits outside of Italy and 146 within Italy . As Bishop of Rome he has visited 317 of the 333 parishes .

His principal documents include 14 encyclicals , 15 apostolic exhortations , 11 apostolic constitutions and 45 apostolic letters. The Pope has also published five books : "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" (October 1994); "Gift and Mystery: On the 50th Anniversary of My Priestly Ordination" (November 1996); "Roman Triptych - Meditations", a book of poems (March 2003); "Rise, Let Us Be On Our Way" (May 2004) and "Memory and Identity" (pubblication spring 2005).

John Paul II has presided at 147 beatification ceremonies ( 1,338 Blesseds proclaimed ) and 51 canonization ceremonies ( 482 Saints ) during his pontificate. He has held 9 consistories in which he created 231 (+ 1 in pectore) cardinals . He has also convened six plenary meetings of the College of Cardinals .

From 1978 to today the Holy Father has presided at 15 Synods of Bishops : six ordinary (1980, 1983, 1987, 1990, 1994, 2001), one extraordinary (1985) and eight special (1980, 1991, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998[2] and 1999).

No other Pope has encountered so many individuals like John Paul II: to date, more than 17,600,000 pilgrims have participated in the General Audiences held on Wednesdays (more than 1,160). Such figure is without counting all other special audiences and religious ceremonies held [more than 8 million pilgrims during the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000 alone] and the millions of faithful met during pastoral visits made in Italy and throughout the world. It must also be remembered the numerous government personalities encountered during 38 official visits and in the 738 audiences and meetings held with Heads of State , and even the 246 audiences and meetings with Prime Ministers .

Poor old bugger, it was sick what they were forcing him to do, he hasn't been in a proper state of mind for so long. He was basically dead anyway.

His body was growing weak, but his mind stayed strong. I heard a report that he was still taking care of business and making appointments until he lost consciousness. His writings in recent months and weeks show that he was very much still the loving Holy Father. Now, please do as the mods asked, and take your arguments to another thread. This is a memorial thread.

May he go in peace and hopefully he went Muslim when he died.

Do not turn this into a argument, and respect the mans faith.

There is always one, ALWAYS one on this forum that must belittle everything.

I am Catholic, but by definition, not a good one. I refer to priests quite often, but I do not confess and thus I do not accept Communion. I have no faith - I do believe that God does exist, but I do not find it in myself to find my own faith. I blame the Pope for this. I was forced into the religion as a baby and my family has continually urged me on to stay within it's community. My woes, huh? Well, it gets better. For as conservative as he was...

He did set a great example for all people. He promoted a society of loving and caring people free of oppression and war (to this, I express he did this idealistically and within the doctrines of his religion). I can only disagree with people who make rude comments about his death as I would with anybody who passed.

While people may be dying from AIDS and being oppressed because Liberation ideology is not promoted and child molestors are protectors (understand I believe they are a very slight minority and only entered the priesthood to molest, they did not become priests and then decide they would molest)... He promoted such people as Mother Theresa (who I see as someone even more compassionate than the pope, but this may be due to situation).

I feel great remorse to my Uncle (a priest obviously now dealing with many messages of sadness and such) but also the people who are now in mourning. For whatever my beliefs are, he was a figurehead and for that, he should be respected (although I know I find it hard deep down to respect him as a person... regardless of his history... please don't flame me, but I'm remaining true to myself, just as he did).

R.I.P.

Do not turn this into a argument, and respect the mans faith.

There is always one, ALWAYS one on this forum that must belittle everything.
Regretfully he wasn't the only one.

His body was growing weak, but his mind stayed strong. I heard a report that he was still taking care of business and making appointments until he lost consciousness. His writings in recent months and weeks show that he was very much still the loving Holy Father. Now, please do as the mods asked, and take your arguments to another thread. This is a memorial thread.

Sure it is. And I say catholics disgraced his image.

It's plain to see what this thread is.

Do not turn this into a argument, and respect the mans faith.

There is always one, ALWAYS one on this forum that must belittle everything.
Sorry. :(

Please keep in mind, whether your faith is Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, we all worship the same God. Pope John Paul worked to unite all for our God.

Yep. He died. Around 9:37 p.m in The Vatican, Rome. Noone else mentioned it here, so I though I would.

Uhh... There's a rather large thread specifically for this.

Please keep in mind, whether your faith is Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, we all worship the same God. Pope John Paul worked to unite all for our God.
Ever notice how he seems to be the only nonmuslim that wasn't targeted by the muslim extremists?

Hey there is. I just noticed that. Ok never mind this thread.

Ever notice how he seems to be the only nonmuslim that wasn't targeted by the muslim extremists?

As I understand it, the Muslim community has been praying for him. I called a Muslim friend with the news that he had died, and Aziz was speechless with tears. It just doesn't matter your faith if your heart is good.

On further thought, it was a young Muslim who shot him in 1981 (?). The Pope forgave him, visited with him, and it's reported that they have maintained correspondence. Not many could carry that much love in their hearts.

May he rest in peace.

Fox news is calling him one of the greatest figures of the 20th century. I think it would be more correct to say he was THE greatest figure of that century and of our own time.

Please keep in mind, whether your faith is Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, we all worship the same God. Pope John Paul worked to unite all for our God.

Indeed.

I'm Jewish, and I respect the pope as a great man, a true man of g-d. The pope was an advocate of peace, and a true believer of making the world a better place.

It's a shame to see him go.

Fox news is calling him one of the greatest figures of the 20th century. I think it would be more correct to say he was THE greatest figure of that century and of our own time.

Fair enough, I wouldn't but it's nice of you to say.

Yes i'd like to say even though i'm an atheist and i was totally against his stance on safe sex,female clergy and abortion i'm not heartless at his death,he did do a lot to promote a better world in his anti war stance and on world poverty....though i can't help wondering if the vatican as a whole could have done more during his time promoting safe sex in the third world would of prevented an AIDS epidemic don't cha think?

I hope the victims of child molesting priests can be more comfortable as the man who allowed the cover-ups and policies of denial dies.
He did do wonderful things but also his action or inaction hurt many.

The cardinals covered it up. He had virtually no knowledge. Besides, it appears it occurred in America more than any other place, thousands of miles away.

Fox news is calling him one of the greatest figures of the 20th century. I think it would be more correct to say he was THE greatest figure of that century and of our own time.

I've been news surfing and most of the news channels and foreign online news reports are saying the same thing. His influence changed the face of the world without a doubt. Since he created most of the Cardinals eligible to vote, it stands to reason that they will select another Pope with similar views. To have another one with his charisma and people skills would be a blessing!

The Pope is gone...It seems...impossible, no? To all of us who have never known another Pope, I ask, can you imagine a world without him? Doesn't it seem like there can't be another Pope? Presidents passed, regimes came and went, even the Soviet Union vanished...But John Paul II was still there. And now he is gone. It's...unreal. Like some sort of horrible, horrible nightmare...

Please keep in mind, whether your faith is Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, we all worship the same God. Pope John Paul worked to unite all for our God.


No, we do not all worship the same God. There is only one God.

Yes i'd like to say even though i'm an atheist and i was totally against his stance on safe sex,female clergy and abortion i'm not heartless at his death,he did do a lot to promote a better world in his anti war stance and on world poverty....though i can't help wondering if the vatican as a whole could have done more during his time promoting safe sex in the third world would of prevented an AIDS epidemic don't cha think?

The Pope carries out the doctrine of the Catholic church. Do I need to start a debate thread for those who want to pick the man apart?

OK...here is your debate thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409809

I've been news surfing and most of the news channels and foreign online news reports are saying the same thing. His influence changed the face of the world without a doubt. Since he created most of the Cardinals eligible to vote, it stands to reason that they will select another Pope with similar views. To have another one with his charisma and people skills would be a blessing!
I think that's what he was trying to accomplish with his recent appointments. If you notice, he appointed people who shared his values.

Even though I'm not a practicing catholic, heck, I'm not even religious, I still think this is a weird moment.
Being young, I've only known one pope in my life and the next one will never be able to fill Johannes Paulus II's shoes. The man was a living legend, confronting every state leader, contacting every religion, but even in his slow and painful aging with Parkinson he was a great man.
Unfortenately, the only thing I'll vividly remember is that frail old man whose words were hardly unstandable and it sometimes was painful to see, knowing that the man still had a clear mind and realised how he was decaying alive, unable to talk last Easter, while the words and thoughts were still in there ... must have been so frustrating.

As a non-believer I don't know what is next after death, if anything at all, but I hope for him he ended up where he lived his life for.

Arrivederci Karol Woytila

The Free Land of The Mormon Churh sends everyone there simpathy for Pope John Paul II. Although this country did not worship the Pope we send our griveinces From our church's president Gorden B. Hinkliy. "Let the Pope rest in peace"

Do not turn this into a argument, and respect the mans faith.

There is always one, ALWAYS one on this forum that must belittle everything.

Jamil said nothing wrong. He liked the man, and gave condolences in HIS way. It was his hope that the Pope was in a state of Islam when he died. So stop being rude, and leave it alone. He made no arguements.

Yep God Bless the Pope and Gorden B. Hinkly Im mormon Many Jews and Christians dont like us but the pope always told his people not to hate us. God bless the Pope I think our Prophet will be giving a prayer on BYU tv.

Even though I'm not a practicing catholic, heck, I'm not even religious, I still think this is a weird moment.
Being young, I've only known one pope in my life and the next one will never be able to fill Johannes Paulus II's shoes. The man was a living legend, confronting every state leader, contacting every religion, but even in his slow and painful aging with Parkinson he was a great man.
Unfortenately, the only thing I'll vividly remember is that frail old man whose words were hardly unstandable and it sometimes was painful to see, knowing that the man still had a clear mind and realised how he was decaying alive, unable to talk last Easter, while the words and thoughts were still in there ... must have been so frustrating.

As a non-believer I don't know what is next after death, if anything at all, but I hope for him he ended up where he lived his life for.

Arrivederci Karol Woytila
Strange isn't it? It just seems like someone else can't be the Pope. He's been the Pope for my entire life. No matter what happened, John Paul II was still there. And now he's not. It's just...odd.

No, we do not all worship the same God. There is only one God.

It is the God of Abraham that the three religions worship. If you want to pick it apart, like you're doing, the Christians worship the Triune god, whereas the Muslims and the Jews worship God, the equivalent of "The Father" in the Christian Trinity.

Strange isn't it? It just seems like someone else can't be the Pope. He's been the Pope for my entire life. No matter what happened, John Paul II was still there. And now he's not. It's just...odd.Yes, exactly.
When someone will say "Pope" or "Paus" (pope in my language), the image of Johannes Paulus II will always pop up into my mind. The next one(s) will only seem like back-ups to me.

Strange isn't it? It just seems like someone else can't be the Pope. He's been the Pope for my entire life. No matter what happened, John Paul II was still there. And now he's not. It's just...odd.
Seems like the only world figure left from WWII is George HW Bush.

Yes, exactly.
When someone will say "Pope" or "Paus" (pope in my language), the image of Johannes Paulus II will always pop up into my mind. The next one(s) will only seem like back-ups to me.

I remember Pope Paul XXIII. He was another great man. His successor, Pope John Paul I, only served for about a month before he died suddenly. Pope John Paul II, was chosen after his death. 3 Popes in 1978. For those who weren't around when he was younger, Pope John Paul II was a very dynamic and charismatic person. All who met him loved him. He was a very physical man and he loved to ski. I have a poster of him on the slopes. When the photographer took his picture he grinned, scrunched up his face, and stuck his tongue out. He spoke to young people and they heard his message. "Be not afraid" he told them...and they answered "John Paul II, we love you!"

Seems like the only world figure left from WWII is George HW Bush.Eh ?

I remember Pope Paul XXIII. He was another great man. His successor, Pope John Paul I, only served for about a month before he died suddenly. Pope John Paul II, was chosen after his death. 3 Popes in 1978. For those who weren't around when he was younger, Pope John Paul II was a very dynamic and charismatic person. All who met him loved him. He was a very physical man and he loved to ski. I have a poster of him on the slopes. When the photographer took his picture he grinned, scrunched up his face, and stuck his tongue out. He spoke to young people and they heard his message. "Be not afraid" he told them...and they answered "John Paul II, we love you!"
Isn't it strange how such a conservative doctrinarian was such a vibrant, energetic person? I think he did much for the Conservative movement, besides all of his other good deeds, by proving that you don't have to a boring oldster if you're a conservative.

Eh ?The Pope's been around since before WWII. All the other people from that time are almost all dead. Even Gorbachev is dead if I'm right. Only GW's dad is left. Everyone else is gone. Thatcher is gone. Reagan is gone. Carter is gone. Yeltsin is gone. Mother Theresa is gone. Only Bush Sr and the Queen of England are left.

Come to think of it, I would be that the queen of England would be the next to go. She's older than Bush Sr.

Heh, Bush Sr. will never die. That ol' bastard (I say this affectionately, of course) is still jumping out of airplanes!

I am deeply saddened by his death. From all I have heard of him, he was a man of sincere and deep faith. I hope and pray that his successor will build on his successes. And, in response to an earlier sarcastic remark in this thread from Bastard-Squad:

"Now it will be quite interesting to see who the next Pope is. It will certainly be funny to see the looks on many of the more fanatical Church member's faces if the next Pope is black "

Why is it that it is assumed Church members will have problems with a black Pope? As a white evangelical male Christian (I know, evil, evil!), I hope it is an African or South American, or even Southeast Asian, as the Church's growth has been greatest in these areas.

Come to think of it, I would be that the queen of England would be the next to go. She's older than Bush Sr.Well, you've also still got Ford and Carter ofcouse. And Castro ... and Mandela
So many old people still around.

The Pope's been around since before WWII. All the other people from that time are almost all dead. Even Gorbachev is dead if I'm right. Only GW's dad is left. Everyone else is gone. Thatcher is gone. Reagan is gone. Carter is gone. Yeltsin is gone. Mother Theresa is gone. Only Bush Sr and the Queen of England are left.
Carter is gone?! I must've missed it ....

Bump

Carter is gone?! I must've missed it ....

No Carter is still alive. As is Margaret Thatcher, unless she has passed since Reagan's funeral and no one wrote about it.

Why is it that it is assumed Church members will have problems with a black Pope? As a white evangelical male Christian (I know, evil, evil!), I hope it is an African or South American, or even Southeast Asian, as the Church's growth has been greatest in these areas.

When the Pope created 31 new Cardinals in 2003, he kept one name secret or "in pectore", meaning "in the heart." Some believe that the Pope wants to name a Cardinal in a country where the church is oppressed, leading to speculation that it could be a prelate from China, where only a state-sanctioned church is recognized. We'll have to wait to see if the in pectore Cardinal will now be named. Our next Pope could be any color, from just about any country. Though, as the first non-Italian Pope in 455 years, the next may very well be Italian. Also, you don't have to be a Cardinal or even a cleric to be chosen.

Strange isn't it? It just seems like someone else can't be the Pope. He's been the Pope for my entire life. No matter what happened, John Paul II was still there. And now he's not. It's just...odd.
I went to Mass a couple hours ago, and they had to omit the Pope from the Eucharistic Prayers. It felt so weird... his absence feels unnatural in me. He's been Pope for the last 26 years - I've been alive the last 16 of those.

I went to Mass a couple hours ago, and they had to omit the Pope from the Eucharistic Prayers. It felt so weird... his absence feels unnatural in me. He's been Pope for the last 26 years - I've been alive the last 16 of those.

Oh...I hadn't thought of that. We won't be able to include him in our prayers at Mass. That will be strange.

I think it is beautiful and fitting, that the Holy Father died while listening to a candle light Mass being celebrated under his windows.

I agree Zooke :)

Oh...I hadn't thought of that. We won't be able to include him in our prayers at Mass. That will be strange.
I wondering about that while on the way to Mass, and it turns out I was right. The priest's entire homily was on the Pope, though... it was very moving, to be honest.

Please keep in mind, whether your faith is Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, we all worship the same God. Pope John Paul worked to unite all for our God.

Amen.

No Carter is still alive. As is Margaret Thatcher, unless she has passed since Reagan's funeral and no one wrote about it.



When the Pope created 31 new Cardinals in 2003, he kept one name secret or "in pectore", meaning "in the heart." Some believe that the Pope wants to name a Cardinal in a country where the church is oppressed, leading to speculation that it could be a prelate from China, where only a state-sanctioned church is recognized. We'll have to wait to see if the in pectore Cardinal will now be named. Our next Pope could be any color, from just about any country. Though, as the first non-Italian Pope in 455 years, the next may very well be Italian. Also, you don't have to be a Cardinal or even a cleric to be chosen.
INTERESTING! So I could be the next Pope ... :D

No you couldn't, you're from Texas.

No you couldn't, you're from Texas.
What's wrong with Texas!!! Them's fightin' words!!! :D

I believe the poster did say from any country???

Amen.
Which, coincidentally was his last word... "Amen"

Which, coincidentally was his last word... "Amen"

And only fitting that the word Amen was his last word.

Requiem In Pace, Karol.

Hope the next one will be a less politician and more real pope that will talk about the poor and the make work from the schisma between modern western people and their church. If not we will all end with South American, African or Chinese priests in our churches. BTW, no problem with that for me, but the new pope will have a mission.

Less acting, less traveling and tourism and more work for the church in a modern and changing world. In short: great politician but was a mediocre pope.

Hope the next one will be a less politician and more real pope that will talk about the poor and the make work from the schisma between modern western people and their church. If not we will all end with South American, African or Chinese priests in our churches. BTW, no problem with that for me, but the new pope will have a mission.

Less acting, less traveling and tourism and more work for the church in a modern and changing world. In short: great politician but was a mediocre pope.

He was a GREAT Pope! :mad: He did more for the Catholic Church than any other Pope. He brought Christian, Muslium, and Jewish people closer together. He also fought for the poor, the sick, and people when they were at their most vulnerability. He championed world peace, fought agaisnt Abortion and pre-martial sex. He did all of that while keeping true to the Catholic faith. He was a great Pope. I just hope the next one can live up to him.

May his great soul rest forever in heaven.

I wonder who the preferati will be this time? How many ballots do you guys reckon for Conclave?

Well, it's real news unlike some of that US stuff which is jusy hyped-up sensionalism. The head of one of the world's smallest sovereign states does have more influence than many supposed superpowers after all.

God bless the Pope and now he can rest in peace.

Everyone noticed it I guess, you couldn't watch TV yesterday without getting bugged by huge inserts with "the pope is dead". Screwed up Spacecowboys with that... bastards.

Everyone noticed it I guess, you couldn't watch TV yesterday without getting bugged by huge inserts with "the pope is dead". Screwed up Spacecowboys with that... bastards.

You think you had it bad?

ALL Polish TV stations stopped their regular programming for 2 fucking hours (or maybe more, I don't know, I just went to bed). Bad night not to go out drinking :mad:

(Don't get me wrong, I do think he was a good guy, but it's stupid: the TV stations are just using the event to get extra points with the catholic majority :()

Over here I didn't hear till an hour later (Britain) I came on NS saw the topic "He's dead" and went straight to BBC news website.

While I'm an athiest (though I have had communion), I still have to admire the work he put into promoting peace and tolerance throughout the World.
If you read through what world leaders said about him:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4404971.stm
makes you realise just how highly he was regarded by these people. Specifically these three messages:

"It is with extreme sadness that we hear of the passing of the leader of the world's Catholics, His Holiness Pope John Paul II, who commanded the three paths of religious learning, philosophical thought and poetical and artistic creativity."
Iranian President Mohammad Khatami

"Israel, the Jewish people and the entire world, lost today a great champion of reconciliation and brotherhood between the faiths.
This is a great loss, first and foremost for the Catholic Church and its hundreds of millions of believers, but also for humanity as a whole."
Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom

"We have lost a very important religious figure who dedicated his life to peace and justice for all."
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas

There would be not one other person in the World today that could evoke these feelings from such people, who are at such loggerheads over everything else. Especially poignant is the Iranian prime minister's message. Pretty incredible coming from that country, really.
An incredible man.


However, I didn't agree at all with his moral proclamations, which were firmly set somewhere in the middle ages.

For me a great man that did so much good has died today, may he rest in peace!

disagree, he was one of the most conservative popes in an already conservativechurch in the last century, his stance on contraception has directly effected the spread of aids in africa, his stance on abortion is contrary to basic human rights. he wasnt all that nice a guy to be honest

Now we can get back to more important things, like who wore what at the last red carpet event, and the jackson trial.

Yes, and the Schiavo controversy.

He's had a very hard time these last months. R.I.P.

disagree, he was one of the most conservative popes in an already conservativechurch in the last century, his stance on contraception has directly effected the spread of aids in africa, his stance on abortion is contrary to basic human rights. he wasnt all that nice a guy to be honest

Actually he could not go about those issues differently, he was a part of Polish church for too long. The priests in this country are all pretty much brainwashed, you either become one of them or stop being a priest.

To the debaters who missed it...this is a memorial thread...for debate on the Pope's principals, please go here:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409809

The pope made more effort for peace, love and understanding between the races and religions than anyone else. I think it'll take a long time until the world realises what a huge loss its recieved. Everyone, regardless of religion will feel the loss of one of the greatest men in history, and in my opinion, the greatest pope. RIP to a truly great man.
He will be missed.

The pope made more effort for peace, love and understanding between the races and religions than anyone else. I think it'll take a long time until the world realises what a huge loss its recieved. Everyone, regardless of religion will feel the loss of one of the greatest men in history, and in my opinion, the greatest pope. RIP to a truly great man.
He will be missed.
This Pope made no effort whatsoever to bring about better relations between the religions. Yes, he visited heads of other religions with extensive media coverage, but he never allowed any concessions regarding actual changes in the way the Catholic church deals with non-catholics. In terms of issues such as women's rights, abortion, birth-control, ordination of women and married men, and overall theologic questions this Pope meant a massive regress into medieval views before the Second Vatican Council.

*strangles self*
How many times do you people need to be told, the debate thread is not here! This is a memorial thread!

*strangles self*
How many times do you people need to be told, the debate thread is not here! This is a memorial thread!

They just can't resist to drag John Paul II name through the mud one more time.

They just can't resist to drag John Paul II name through the mud one more time.
Well it's his own mud...
And remembering someone does not mean to glorify him, does it?

May he be with God and rest in peace.

May he be with God and rest in peace.
He may rest but he is surely not with God. Someone who endorses the spread of AIDS and does everything to keep women in submission does not come to God.

He may rest but he is surely not with God. Someone who endorses the spread of AIDS and does everything to keep women in submission does not come to God.

Stop it. You're sick.

This Pope made no effort whatsoever to bring about better relations between the religions. Yes, he visited heads of other religions with extensive media coverage, but he never allowed any concessions regarding actual changes in the way the Catholic church deals with non-catholics. In terms of issues such as women's rights, abortion, birth-control, ordination of women and married men, and overall theologic questions this Pope meant a massive regress into medieval views before the Second Vatican Council.

Excuse me, but John Paul II was the first pope ever to acknowledge that there is truth in other religions, and that you don't have to be Catholic, or even Christian, to go to Heaven. If that isn't monumental, I don't know what is, especially since no Protestant leader has ever said such a thing.

http://www.koudhe.nl/Programmas/pisa/popiejopie/popiejopie.shtml

Click on "media" and "liedjes" and enjoy the eighties and a open mind!

Excuse me, but John Paul II was the first pope ever to acknowledge that there is truth in other religions, and that you don't have to be Catholic, or even Christian, to go to Heaven. If that isn't monumental, I don't know what is, especially since no Protestant leader has ever said such a thing.
Excuse me, but John Paul II has expressed more than once that only the Catholic Church is truth and that only through her can come salvation. And he silenced anyone within the church who held a different opinion. JP2 neverdiscussed anything, he always put forward his own mind as the inerrant divine will, and with his powers as the autocrat ruler of the church he centralized the church and killed all regional peculiarities of Catholicism. Obeyance is what he called upon, not dialogue.