NationStates Jolt Archive

Some people have asked me why I'm not religious. I am religious. I just don't have a religion. I'm undecided. And here is why.

My grandmother was a born-again Christian. She was a heavy drinker for a long time and often was violent towards my aunt. She was married 3 times, once to my grandfather, once to my step-grandfather. My step-grandfather molested my mom and her brothers on a regular basis. After he died, he was buried the day I was born, she went to work leaving her 6 kids home alone. My mom and aunt got pregnant when they were teenagers. So, there's a lot of hypocrisy there, and my mom automatically followed my grandma's footsteps. She believed in the traditional Catholic church, and tried to stay pure of contemporary Christian beliefs.

Here is what I grew up with:

-No horoscopes, tarot, psychics, etc. ordered by my grandmother. "No one should question the actions of god."

-No masturbation. "One should only have sex in the context of love, not lust."

-No pre-marital sex.

-No birth control of any kind.

-Scientific explanation should not come before religious explanation. There were times where I was told not to speak of certain things in front of my grandmother. Fate and destiny was one of them. I was ordered to not think about marriage, dating, or sex with a person outside of my race. "You are white because of god's will."

Being confirmed would confirm to my family that I do believe and live in these certain ways. I could not do that because I could not confine myself to no justification, no fact, no explanation of anything.

if you are really interested in religion you should get REAL catholic instruction from an expert.

families use religion to control children the same way they use superstitions (is bad luck to open an umbrella in the house---well DUH, in an enclosed space the likelihood of poking someone in the eye is greatly increased)

the catholic church isnt anti-science. it does not disallow ALL forms of birthcontrol (just MOST). it is not against dating. it is not against interracial dating

most religions are against extra-marital sex. most chrisian sects are against or at least deeply suspicious of any "new age"/psychic stuff. most christian sects are at least uneasy about masturbation.

the catholic church has 2000 years of the biggest thinkers of humanity behind it. that doesnt mean it HAS to be right, but it does mean it has a reason for every single thing it teaches. to judge it, you need to find out what it really DOES teach and see if that makes sense to you. it may, it may not, but to judge it by the things your family has taught you is unfair.

The Catholic Church does disallow all forms of birth control.

if you are really interested in religion you should get REAL catholic instruction from an expert.

families use religion to control children the same way they use superstitions (is bad luck to open an umbrella in the house---well DUH, in an enclosed space the likelihood of poking someone in the eye is greatly increased)

the catholic church isnt anti-science. it does not disallow ALL forms of birthcontrol (just MOST). it is not against dating. it is not against interracial dating

most religions are against extra-marital sex. most chrisian sects are against or at least deeply suspicious of any "new age"/psychic stuff. most christian sects are at least uneasy about masturbation.

the catholic church has 2000 years of the biggest thinkers of humanity behind it. that doesnt mean it HAS to be right, but it does mean it has a reason for every single thing it teaches. to judge it, you need to find out what it really DOES teach and see if that makes sense to you. it may, it may not, but to judge it by the things your family has taught you is unfair.I agree... talk to someone... perhaps Baptist or Prodestant. but sounds like you have some issues that need to be addressed.

The Catholic Church does disallow all forms of birth control.

the church disallows all ARTIFICIAL means of birthcontrol

there are methods that are acceptable to the catholic church.

of course they require an iron dicipline if they are to have any chance at working, but thats not the church's problem.

the church disallows all ARTIFICIAL means of birthcontrol

there are methods that are acceptable to the catholic church.

of course they require an iron dicipline if they are to have any chance at working, but thats not the church's problem.
Deliberately abstaining at selective times is considered an artificial method. The only such solution is complete abstinence in marriage if children are not desired. This has been constant Catholic teaching.

The Catholic Church does disallow all forms of birth control.

Yes and no. The Catholic Church disallows artificial forms of birth control. However, all methods of natural family planning are permitted, and of course abstinence is always permitted.

Of course, there are usually a couple of responses to this, namely that a) natural family planning (everyone always thinks of the rythym method) doesn't work worth a damn and b) how dare anyone suggest that two people not have sex, as is their right.

Well, in brief response, a) natural family planning has advanced a long way beyond the admittedly ineffective rythym method, and has become much more effective. The basal body temperature method is quite effective, able to pinpoint almost exactly the date of ovulation. Now, these new techniques involve a bit of effort from the couple, yes, and do require that for a few days each month the couple refrain from sex. But in response to the part about effort, I don't see it as a bad thing. After all, it allows a couple to become fully involved in their own sexuality and reproduction, more intimately so than simply slapping on a condom. And in response to the part about not having sex, b) sometimes, a little self-denial can be good for the body and the soul. It gives us a chance to step back and contemplate those things in our life that are truly important, gives us a chance to appreciate our partner with his/her clothes on for a while, lets us focus on those other aspects of life that fill the remaining hours of the day, instead of just the comparitively short time we would spend having sex. Furthermore, self-denial (and I'm not talking to ludicrous excess here, just mild restraint -- a couple not having sex for three years is unreasonable, unless there are extenuating circumstances, but a couple not having sex for three days is not) serves to remind us that, as a couple, when we're "old and grey" as so many country songs sing about, it isn't the sex that'll bring us together, but the other bonds we formed when we decided to keep our clothes on.

* * *

In response to the original topic, all I can say is that your grandmother echoes the beliefs of far too many people who have completely misappropriated religious beliefs for an irreligious, selfish, and ignorant end (in this case, as is often the case, iron-fisted control).

I was born and raised Catholic, and continue to grow in, and strenghten, my faith all the time. If you can't find, or don't want to walk in to a church and go looking for, someone you can ask questions to, you are welcome to bounce any questions you have off of me. I will answer what I can, and if I don't have an answer right away I know where I can go to get them. I'll make sure my contact information is up-to-date.

:D Aiera

Deliberately abstaining at selective times is considered an artificial method. The only such solution is complete abstinence in marriage if children are not desired. This has been constant Catholic teaching.

It's a semantic distinction. In this case, when we talk of "artificial" forms, we are speaking of any form of birth control in which something other than the man and woman are involved (be it a condom, diaphragm, birth control pill, whatever).

Not having sex is natural - people do it all the time.
;) Aiera

I also am not a practicing Catholic, but for reasons far different from yours. If I were you, I would talk to a priest because some of the things you have been taught by your family about the Catholic religion are not true or are distortions of teachings of the Church.

I would have to agree, Catholisim has been a blight on humanity sence day 1. They have been holding humanity back sence the dark ages. Fortuantly, thier power has been dieing out. Now, just a note, I have nothing against catholics whom aren't out to control my lifestyle, though thier higher ups seem to get thier rocks off by telling others what they can and can't do.

It's a semantic distinction. In this case, when we talk of "artificial" forms, we are speaking of any form of birth control in which something other than the man and woman are involved (be it a condom, diaphragm, birth control pill, whatever).

Not having sex is natural - people do it all the time.
;) Aiera
Yes, but it must be part of the couple's complete lifestyle. Deliberately timing their activities to prevent the procreation of children is prohibited, as it is artificial.

Yes, but it must be part of the couple's complete lifestyle. Deliberately timing their activities to prevent the procreation of children is prohibited, as it is artificial.
i think you need to check around again

I would have to agree, Catholisim has been a blight on humanity sence day 1. They have been holding humanity back sence the dark ages. Fortuantly, thier power has been dieing out. Now, just a note, I have nothing against catholics whom aren't out to control my lifestyle, though thier higher ups seem to get thier rocks off by telling others what they can and can't do.

The Catholic Church really isn't out to control people's lifestyle, although it does ask that people do so for themselves. I think that's a better way of putting it, myself.

I also do not think that Catholicism is a blight on humanity at all. Look even now to Rome, at the Pope who has entered into the final hours of his life. Since his becoming Pope, Karol Wojtyla has been one of the most consistent moral voices of this planet, and his message has never heen harsh and cruel (but neither has it pulled any punches when punches were merited). Consider the recent bestowing of the Medal of Freedom on him by George W. Bush -- the Pope's first words to the president were scolding, because since its launch the Pope has cried out against the war in Iraq.

The Catholic Church is an immense humanitarian organization, with aid missions all over the world, in many more places than the UN is even willing to acknowledge there is a problem with.

Admittedly, people acting in the name of the Catholic Church have, in the past, committed actions and atrocities that are horrific and terrible. I hope you will note also that the Church has, in almost every case, apologized for the mistakes of its past members and made reconcilliation with those wronged when possible. This is because the Church as itself is righteous and good, even if sometimes its human members fall into sin.

:) Aiera

Yes, but it must be part of the couple's complete lifestyle. Deliberately timing their activities to prevent the procreation of children is prohibited, as it is artificial.

Yeah, you should check that one again, because at this point you're off the map. Every Catholic Church I've gone to has support groups for natural family planning methods, and all NFP methods involve voluntary abstinence at some point.

The Church doesn't force people to have sex, and does not force people to not have sex. All the Church says is that sex has two aspects, a procreative aspect and a unitive aspect. All the Church asks is that couples who have sex be open to both aspects. I find it to be a beautiful thing.

:) Aiera

It seems you grew up in a very devout family, I can see why you left.

Oksana, if I may, where did you grow up, and what was daily life like in this family?

It seems you grew up in a very devout family, I can see why you left.

I think you misuse a term of great beauty. I would not call the family devout, as a monk, nun, or priest can be devout - devotion is a wonderful thing, and implies faithfulness, trust, and honesty.

Oksana's family was very "strict". That's a more correct term, I think.

;) Aiera

Stories like this make me treasure my atheist family even more.

Yeah, you should check that one again, because at this point you're off the map. Every Catholic Church I've gone to has support groups for natural family planning methods, and all NFP methods involve voluntary abstinence at some point.

The Church doesn't force people to have sex, and does not force people to not have sex. All the Church says is that sex has two aspects, a procreative aspect and a unitive aspect. All the Church asks is that couples who have sex be open to both aspects. I find it to be a beautiful thing.

:) Aiera
"Natural family planning" is a liberal Protestant innovation, not approved by the Catholic Church. It matters not what some local pastor screeches out of the corner of his mouth. These are the same rebellious churches that permit "communion on the hand" and having "altar girls," they just says "catholic" on the door and ignore the doctrine of the Faith.

How about homosexuals then? just because they can't be procreative they can't have sex?

Yes and no. The Catholic Church disallows artificial forms of birth control. However, all methods of natural family planning are permitted, and of course abstinence is always permitted.
The following is not insulting the Catholic Church, merely insulting certain people who happen to be of the Catholic faith:

My friend's mom works at Planned Parenthood, and she would swear that at least twice a month a different pregnant Catholic couple would come in for help with their pregnancy. When she asked them what form of birth control they were using prior to the pregnancy, they would always answer "abstinence". She would always sigh and ask them how, if they were abstinent, they happened to have a baby on their hands. The one answer she got that she told me was: "Well, these things happen..."

In other words, if you're going to lay off the poontang, lay off the poontang. If you're going to subscribe to a religion that prohibits premarital sex, lay off the premarital sex.

We're having a degradation of the values of certain beliefs in recent years due to a policy adopted in the middle ages: quantity over quality. People who are fervant believers want their sons and daughters, who really don't give two shits about their parents' religion, to be a part of their belief structure. The result is the sons and daughters "half-assing it", choosing some beliefs to follow and others to not. "Well, I'll have some premarital sex and I hope God won't care, but I can't use birth control or else I'm going to hell!"

It's all or nothing either way, people. Either blaspheme against God entirely, or throw your lot in with your religion entirely.

How about homosexuals then? just because they can't be procreative they can't have sex?

No, they get homosexuals through the "no sex outside of marriage".

How about homosexuals then? just because they can't be procreative they can't have sex?
"Homosexuals?" Can murderers murder? Deceivers deceive? Rapists rape? Of course they can, and then they would have to confess and do much penance if they ever wish to be forgiven for such grave sins in the eyes of God.

The Catholic Church really isn't out to control people's lifestyle, although it does ask that people do so for themselves. I think that's a better way of putting it, myself.

I beg to differ. About the only thing I have seen from them in the past as in the present. Ask any non-catholic and they most likely will agree with me. Even last night I had seen on the news that JP had been trying to unite islam and the catholics against birth control and abortion. In Michigan, evangelicals were attempting to pass a bill that made it where doctors could choose whom they treated based on sexual orientation. In Colorado, they are mis-informing women whom have been raped about thier options because the catholics say its wrong. These are just recent actions. Look back in the past just one year and I am sure I could find a load more things. Compationate my ass!

I also do not think that Catholicism is a blight on humanity at all. Look even now to Rome, at the Pope who has entered into the final hours of his life. Since his becoming Pope, Karol Wojtyla has been one of the most consistent moral voices of this planet, and his message has never heen harsh and cruel (but neither has it pulled any punches when punches were merited). Consider the recent bestowing of the Medal of Freedom on him by George W. Bush -- the Pope's first words to the president were scolding, because since its launch the Pope has cried out against the war in Iraq.

I am not just speaking in present day, I was speaking throughout history. There have been many, many people killed in the name of god under the catholic church. I would say they have killed more people than any other religion though history.

The Catholic Church is an immense humanitarian organization, with aid missions all over the world, in many more places than the UN is even willing to acknowledge there is a problem with..

Too bad they don't get more press coverage from that. Though while helping, it is very much possible that they are indoctorinating new followers?

Admittedly, people acting in the name of the Catholic Church have, in the past, committed actions and atrocities that are horrific and terrible. I hope you will note also that the Church has, in almost every case, apologized for the mistakes of its past members and made reconcilliation with those wronged when possible. This is because the Church as itself is righteous and good, even if sometimes its human members fall into sin.

Well, I'm happy for this atleast.

"Homosexuals?" Can murderers murder? Deceivers deceive? Rapists rape? Of course they can, and then they would have to confess and do much penance if they ever wish to be forgiven for such grave sins in the eyes of God.

Eh, i was bringing up the point that some people are homosexual genetically and that their rights are shunned by the catholic church because they aren't capable of fully adhering to the catholic world view.

"Homosexuals?" Can murderers murder? Deceivers deceive? Rapists rape? Of course they can, and then they would have to confess and do much penance if they ever wish to be forgiven for such grave sins in the eyes of God.
Can homosexuals homosex?

I fail to see any coherant logic in this statement.

Eh, i was bringing up the point that some people are homosexual genetically and that their rights are shunned by the catholic church because they aren't capable of fully adhering to the catholic world view.
Homosexuality is a sin in itself, no different than murder.

The Catholic Church does disallow all forms of birth control.
Or marriage between people of different skin colour.

Homosexuality is a sin in itself, no different than murder.

catholics actually don't believe that, surprisingly enough, they just believe that the act is a sin.

which is basically saying the same thing

Homosexuality is a sin in itself, no different than murder.
Outside of Leviticus (which is chalk-full of fun rules like "You can't eat shrimp (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com)"), where does it say homosexuality is equivalent with murder?

catholics actually don't believe that, surprisingly enough, they just believe that the act is a sin.

Perhaps, but the Catholic Church does teach that.

The following is not insulting the Catholic Church, merely insulting certain people who happen to be of the Catholic faith:

My friend's mom works at Planned Parenthood, and she would swear that at least twice a month a different pregnant Catholic couple would come in for help with their pregnancy. When she asked them what form of birth control they were using prior to the pregnancy, they would always answer "abstinence". She would always sigh and ask them how, if they were abstinent, they happened to have a baby on their hands. The one answer she got that she told me was: "Well, these things happen..."

In other words, if you're going to lay off the poontang, lay off the poontang. If you're going to subscribe to a religion that prohibits premarital sex, lay off the premarital sex.

We're having a degradation of the values of certain beliefs in recent years due to a policy adopted in the middle ages: quantity over quality. People who are fervant believers want their sons and daughters, who really don't give two shits about their parents' religion, to be a part of their belief structure. The result is the sons and daughters "half-assing it", choosing some beliefs to follow and others to not. "Well, I'll have some premarital sex and I hope God won't care, but I can't use birth control or else I'm going to hell!"

It's all or nothing either way, people. Either blaspheme against God entirely, or throw your lot in with your religion entirely.
the saddest thing is when a catholic girl goes in for an abortion after having unprotected sex and getting pregnant. after all birth control is a sin so she wasnt on the pill.

Perhaps, but the Catholic Church does teach that.

Have you ever read pamphlets put out by the bishops? the Catholic Church doesn't believe that homosexuals are sinful because they're homosexuals, they believe the act of homosexuality is sinful.

How about homosexuals then? just because they can't be procreative they can't have sex?
Yup. That's the reason, actually. Since they can't procreate, and according to Jewish-Christian tradition, all act of sex must be for procreation because that's what god ordered people to do (go forth and multiply), then it's a sin.

And, yes, it's comparable to murder for the same reason.

I know, it's dumb, antiquated, has no basis in reality, and only makes sense if you're living in a desert tribe 3000 years ago, but that's how it is.

Have you ever read pamphlets put out by the bishops? the Catholic Church doesn't believe that homosexuals are sinful because they're homosexuals, they believe the act of homosexuality is sinful.

Kinda funny as some of those bishops go against that, with pedophilia no less.

Yup. That's the reason, actually. Since they can't procreate, and according to Jewish-Christian tradition, all act of sex must be for procreation because that's what god ordered people to do (go forth and multiply), then it's a sin.

And, yes, it's comparable to murder for the same reason.

I know, it's dumb, antiquated, has no basis in reality, and only makes sense if you're living in a desert tribe 3000 years ago, but that's how it is.

^^ thank you.

Have you ever read pamphlets put out by the bishops? the Catholic Church doesn't believe that homosexuals are sinful because they're homosexuals, they believe the act of homosexuality is sinful.
After so much advance of civil rights movements the Catholic Church has toned down its condemnation and persecution of homosexuals. But don't kid yourself, just 20 years ago homosexuals were openly rejected as big sinners and some time before that they could even be hanged and stoned.

After so much advance of civil rights movements the Catholic Church has toned down its condemnation and persecution of homosexuals. But don't kid yourself, just 20 years ago homosexuals were openly rejected as big sinners and some time before that they could even be hanged and stoned.

I agree, and i'm not defending the catholic church, not being a catholic and all, just saying that their current approach is at least a bit more reasonable.

Outside of Leviticus (which is chalk-full of fun rules like "You can't eat shrimp (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com)"), where does it say homosexuality is equivalent with murder?
For this cause God delivered them up to shameful afflictions. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. And in like manner the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have turned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
(Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Romans iXXVI-XXXII)

Much work on the matter is also addressed in the works of great theologians and fathers of the Church such as Saint Augustine.

Yup. That's the reason, actually. Since they can't procreate, and according to Jewish-Christian tradition, all act of sex must be for procreation because that's what god ordered people to do (go forth and multiply), then it's a sin.

And, yes, it's comparable to murder for the same reason.

I know, it's dumb, antiquated, has no basis in reality, and only makes sense if you're living in a desert tribe 3000 years ago, but that's how it is.
But he said "Go forth and multiply", not "only have sex to multiply".

There's a pretty big difference.

Have you ever read pamphlets put out by the bishops? the Catholic Church doesn't believe that homosexuals are sinful because they're homosexuals, they believe the act of homosexuality is sinful.
Certainly the "United States Conference of Catholic Bishops" can not even be relied on as being Catholic at the present time. Just look at their usage of the "new american bible," a heavily protestant version. The Church considers homosexuality to be inherently sinful.

Certainly the "United States Conference of Catholic Bishops" can not even be relied on as being Catholic at the present time. Just look at their usage of the "new american bible," a heavily protestant version. The Church considers homosexuality to be inherently sinful.

Which church are you referring to then?

But he said "Go forth and multiply", not "only have sex to multiply".

There's a pretty big difference.
I agree. As often happens it's not "who said what" but all the people later telling you what they meant.

It's all in the spin.

For this cause God delivered them up to shameful afflictions. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. And in like manner the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have turned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error. And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.
(Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Romans iXXVI-XXXII)Sounds like something Hitler would say about the Jews.

That aside, Paul was fallible, Saint or no. He was human, open to all sorts of lovely biases.

I'm guessing what I'm asking for here is a divine decree of homosexuality being bad. It's not to much to ask, nor to wonder why (if it's as bad as murder) it didn't get its own commandment.

My reason sucks.

I went to a Catholic school.

Has nothing to do with parents, who didn't even take me to Church during all those years. Weird, huh?

Which church are you referring to then?
The Church established upon Saint Peter in A.D. XXXIII.

The Catholic Church isn't all bad. It does have a few good aspects, like that it doesn't rule the world.

How about homosexuals then? just because they can't be procreative they can't have sex?

no.. they cant have sex because they are having sex out of wedlock.. and the bible dicates how marriage is to be carried out.... unfortunatly for them.. marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman... but the Church only comdems homosexual BEHAVIOR... not people who have homosexual impulses.. those are people just being tempted by sin like all of us... and the Church condems the behavior just as it comdems theft or any other sin

"Natural family planning" is a liberal Protestant innovation, not approved by the Catholic Church. It matters not what some local pastor screeches out of the corner of his mouth. These are the same rebellious churches that permit "communion on the hand" and having "altar girls," they just says "catholic" on the door and ignore the doctrine of the Faith.

Things like communion on the hand and having alter girls are policies approved by the pulpit.. the Roman Catholic church DOES aprove them and no where in the bible does it say girls can't be alter girls does it!

My reason sucks.

I went to a Catholic school.

Has nothing to do with parents, who didn't even take me to Church during all those years. Weird, huh?

And my school wasn't even that bad - we didn't have any nuns and we even had a Muslim and some protestants in my class. No damning of them by teachers, not even behind their backs. I did have to write a letter every year though thanking my parents for sending me to a catholic school. :rolleyes:

"We get to pray!" - how retarded is that?

"Natural family planning" is a liberal Protestant innovation, not approved by the Catholic Church. It matters not what some local pastor screeches out of the corner of his mouth. These are the same rebellious churches that permit "communion on the hand" and having "altar girls," they just says "catholic" on the door and ignore the doctrine of the Faith.

Oh, for the love of...

Okay, you're obviously a strict Traditionalist. That's fine. But I would caution you to pause a moment before you speak, because in stating that my parish is a rebel parish you smear four great priests, all of whom are the most devout and faithful Catholics I could ever ask to meet.

To wit, and to paraphrase Fass, they make me value my sane Catholic family, and friends, even more.

(Sorry, dude, just couldn't resist responding to the implication that us religious types are insane.)

Anyhow, back on task! Just flipping over to vatican.va for a minute, I took the liberty of reading some pontifical letters:

Distinguished Ladies and Gentlemen,
Dear Brothers and Sisters.

1. Once again this year the Catholic University's Study and Research Centre for Natural Fertility Regulation is offering a course to train teachers in the natural methods. This meeting is particularly significant, because it is being held during the 20th year of this centre's activity, an event recently celebrated with a congress of international importance significantly entitled: “At the Sources of Life”.

On this occasion I am pleased to renew my sentiments of appreciation and esteem for the work you have done, which is better and better understood by the ecclesial community and by medical and scientific circles.

2. The scientific validity of the methods and their educational effectiveness makes them increasingly appreciated for the human values that they presuppose and strengthen, when they are taught and presented in a suitable anthropological and ethical context, according to the wise directive expressed in Paul VI's Encyclical Humanae vitae and so many times explained in subsequent documents of the Magisterium.

Their humanizing character is all the more obvious from the fact that using the natural methods requires and strengthens the harmony of the married couple, it helps and confirms the rediscovery of the marvellous gift of parenthood, it involves respect for nature and demands the responsibility of the individuals. According to many authoritative opinions, they also foster more completely that human ecology which is the harmony between the demands of nature and personal behaviour.

At the global level this choice supports the process of freedom and emancipation of women and peoples from unjust family planning programmes, which bring in their sad wake the various forms of contraception, abortion and sterilization.

3. But more immediately, your work each day is valuable and sought after in parish communities and in diocesan centres for the pastoral care of the family and life. In this regard, I wrote in the Encyclical Evangelium vitae that “an honest appraisal of their effectiveness should dispel certain prejudices which are still widely held, and should convince married couples, as well as health-care and social workers, of the importance of proper training in this area. The Church is grateful to those who, with personal sacrifice and often unacknowledged dedication, devote themselves to the study and spread of these methods, as well as to the promotion of education in the moral values which they presuppose” (n. 97).

The moment has come for every parish and every structure of consultation and assistance to the family and to the defence of life to have personnel available who can teach married couples how to use the natural methods. For this reason I particularly recommend that Bishops, parish priests and those responsible for pastoral care welcome and promote this valuable service.

With this hope, as I ask the Lord to constantly accompany your untiring work, I sincerely bless you and with you the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, whose Faculty of Medicine and Surgery promotes and supports your work, which is worthy of the highest esteem and well-suited to the tasks and role of a Catholic university.

So there you have it -- the Pope supports NFP and related education methods. Catholics support NFP and related education methods. If you don't like it, stop being Catholic.


Anyhow, some wrap-up comments:

At Mt-Tau - that's why it's important to read the end of a post before you reply to it, or else you wind up munching on your foot a little bit. In response to your opening statement, however, I don't want to get into the abortion debate. All I will say is that the Church has come down on the side of the unborn, (correctly, for my money) stating that the unborn are living human beings (if you can debate that, you need help) and that, no matter what the method of conception, they have a dignity and value as human beings that nobody else should have the right to take away, save of course for God.

At Resi - I agree that there is a need to enforce consistency between a person's stated values and their actions. Obviously, this girl didn't do that. Abstinence as a birth-control method does require a lot of discipline, but not an extraordinary amount. Hearkening back to Mt-Tau's example, it is interesting that you bring up the rape example. I have one friend who was conceived through rape, and another friend who I think was conceived through an adulterous affair. Abortion would have robbed this world of two wonderful and brilliant people had my friends' mothers carried through with Plan A, and I am very grateful that Plan B was chosen in the end. A lot of people find it shocking when I say it, but I am opposed to abortion even in cases of rape, because the manner of conception does not change that the unborn is a human being with the full dignity of human life in it. Nor does the manner of conception justify applying what is in essence a death sentence to the innocent and uninvolved result of that conception.

And a note to everyone: if you really want to know where Catholics stand on every issue, hit http://www.vatican.va and check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's everything you believe if you're Catholic.

And, at Kyrie - read the damn Catechism before you brand yourself heretical, my man. Homosexuality is not murder.

:) Aiera

the saddest thing is when a catholic girl goes in for an abortion after having unprotected sex and getting pregnant. after all birth control is a sin so she wasnt on the pill.

yes well.. Premartial sex is a sin also... but even worse.. murder is a capital sin... she should be cutting her losses instead of nailing herself in the coffin

At Resi - I agree that there is a need to enforce consistency between a person's stated values and their actions. Obviously, this girl didn't do that. Abstinence as a birth-control method does require a lot of discipline, but not an extraordinary amount. Hearkening back to Mt-Tau's example, it is interesting that you bring up the rape example. I have one friend who was conceived through rape, and another friend who I think was conceived through an adulterous affair. Abortion would have robbed this world of two wonderful and brilliant people had my friends' mothers carried through with Plan A, and I am very grateful that Plan B was chosen in the end. A lot of people find it shocking when I say it, but I am opposed to abortion even in cases of rape, because the manner of conception does not change that the unborn is a human being with the full dignity of human life in it. Nor does the manner of conception justify applying what is in essence a death sentence to the innocent and uninvolved result of that conception.

And a note to everyone: if you really want to know where Catholics stand on every issue, hit http://www.vatican.va and check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's everything you believe if you're Catholic.
I... don't exactly know what you're talking about. I never brought up "the rape example" for anything. Hell, I never even touched on abortion. I just mentioned Planned Parenthood, which offers abortion as one of many services. O_o

Oh, for the love of...

Okay, you're obviously a strict Traditionalist. That's fine. But I would caution you to pause a moment before you speak, because in stating that my parish is a rebel parish you smear four great priests, all of whom are the most devout and faithful Catholics I could ever ask to meet.

To wit, and to paraphrase Fass, they make me value my sane Catholic family, and friends, even more.

(Sorry, dude, just couldn't resist responding to the implication that us religious types are insane.)

Anyhow, back on task! Just flipping over to vatican.va for a minute, I took the liberty of reading some pontifical letters:



So there you have it -- the Pope supports NFP and related education methods. Catholics support NFP and related education methods. If you don't like it, stop being Catholic.


Anyhow, some wrap-up comments:

At Mt-Tau - that's why it's important to read the end of a post before you reply to it, or else you wind up munching on your foot a little bit. In response to your opening statement, however, I don't want to get into the abortion debate. All I will say is that the Church has come down on the side of the unborn, (correctly, for my money) stating that the unborn are living human beings (if you can debate that, you need help) and that, no matter what the method of conception, they have a dignity and value as human beings that nobody else should have the right to take away, save of course for God.

At Resi - I agree that there is a need to enforce consistency between a person's stated values and their actions. Obviously, this girl didn't do that. Abstinence as a birth-control method does require a lot of discipline, but not an extraordinary amount. Hearkening back to Mt-Tau's example, it is interesting that you bring up the rape example. I have one friend who was conceived through rape, and another friend who I think was conceived through an adulterous affair. Abortion would have robbed this world of two wonderful and brilliant people had my friends' mothers carried through with Plan A, and I am very grateful that Plan B was chosen in the end. A lot of people find it shocking when I say it, but I am opposed to abortion even in cases of rape, because the manner of conception does not change that the unborn is a human being with the full dignity of human life in it. Nor does the manner of conception justify applying what is in essence a death sentence to the innocent and uninvolved result of that conception.

And a note to everyone: if you really want to know where Catholics stand on every issue, hit http://www.vatican.va and check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's everything you believe if you're Catholic.

And, at Kyrie - read the damn Catechism before you brand yourself heretical, my man. Homosexuality is not murder.

:) Aiera

THANKYOU... atleast someone knows what they are talking about

Things like communion on the hand and having alter girls are policies approved by the pulpit.. the Roman Catholic church DOES aprove them and no where in the bible does it say girls can't be alter girls does it!
The Roman Catholic Church has prohibited such practices for millenia and still does today.

What that person is saying is not that the catholic church says you have to have sex, but instead they are saying that the catholic church looks at what you are talking about as a form of birth control. ALL FORMS OF BIRTH CONTROL WERE ORIGINALLY NOT ALLOWED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! In this day and age it is expected that two people are going to have sex but not want kids, and believe it or not, even religions have to follow this. Therefore, most catholic churches have "bent their rules" and now allow "natural forms of birth control"

There is only one Catholic Church, and it hasn't bent its rules at all. What the Church has done is adapt and change along with society. Yes, it does so at a slower pace than society, but this is not the slowness of an archaic institution unwilling to change. It is the measured pace of an institution that wants to make sure it makes the right changes, and is willing to pause for a while and think about something before jumping in.

The Catholic Church recognizes that people don't want/need as many children today, and God has revealed to the Church that there are methods of birth control that can be put in practice to achieve this end. The rules haven't been bent...they are simply different now, and this is universal to the Catholic Church worldwide (trad-Cath blowhards nonwithstanding).

...now please, just shut up and get on with your lives.

Good advice for everyone here.

;) Aiera

I... don't exactly know what you're talking about. I never brought up "the rape example" for anything. Hell, I never even touched on abortion. I just mentioned Planned Parenthood, which offers abortion as one of many services. O_o


Sorry, my bad. That was also Mt-Tau that brought the example of rape up. My mistake.

I do agree with you as stated, however.

:) Aiera

The Roman Catholic Church has prohibited such practices for millenia and still does today.

it does not today i asure u.. there is not one roman cathlic church (and ive been to many in several coutnries) that does not partice these policies... they are very much permited by the Vatican... it was a policy change indoctrined by the Current Pope! (though in the past they did prohibit them)

EDIT:
http://www.ndsmcobserver.com/news/2003/10/14/News/Vatican.May.Prohibit.Female.Alter.Service-527679.shtml
in fact this move to backtrack never occured and women are still allowed to partake in alter service.. READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH and learn something about the pulpit before you spew misinfomration

The Catholic Church does disallow all forms of birth control.

Wrong. There's something called Natural Family Planning which basically involves monitoring the wife's period and determining when she is most fertile. During those times, the couple can have sex to increase their chances of having a child or avoid it if they are not ready for a child at the time.

That is the only form of birth control allowed by the Catholic Church because it is the most natural way to express love while being open to the chance that you may have a child. Condoms are seen as something not natural getting in the way of procreation, which (coupled with pleasure) is the reason for sex (in the eyes of the Catholic Church).

The Roman Catholic Church has prohibited such practices for millenia and still does today.

Bzzt! Wrong! Read the Catechism!

:( Aiera

yes well.. Premartial sex is a sin also... but even worse.. murder is a capital sin... she should be cutting her losses instead of nailing herself in the coffin
Scientifically speaking, a fetus' brain functions at sub-sentient levels while in the womb. It has its basic instincts, but is far from being fully human yet. When it's an embryo, it's simply a multi-cellular organism, not yet a human. Even early in the fetus stage of development, the fetus has gills very unlike anything in fully-created humans.

Now I'm not saying that aborting a recognisably human fetus is alright, I'm just saying that an embryo is by no stretch of the imagination human.

If aborting an embryo is illegal, would it be able to vote in an American election after keeping it alive in a petri dish for 18 years?

Embryos =/= human

Ciao, y'all, I'm off again. If you want to ask me anything else (or respond to something I've said, find me on AIM or MSN. Or email me).

:D Aiera

Oh, for the love of...

Okay, you're obviously a strict Traditionalist. That's fine. But I would caution you to pause a moment before you speak, because in stating that my parish is a rebel parish you smear four great priests, all of whom are the most devout and faithful Catholics I could ever ask to meet.
If they promote such heretical abuses, they are not much in the way of Catholic at all.


So there you have it -- the Pope supports NFP and related education methods. Catholics support NFP and related education methods. If you don't like it, stop being Catholic.

And a note to everyone: if you really want to know where Catholics stand on every issue, hit http://www.vatican.va and check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's everything you believe if you're Catholic.

And, at Kyrie - read the damn Catechism before you brand yourself heretical, my man. Homosexuality is not murder.

:) Aiera
Whatever John Paul II's position is may be null. The heretic Pope John Paul II is infamous for his many heresies.

As for the "Catechism of the Catholic Church," it is loaded with errors. I recommend the timeless Roman Catechism or The Baltimore Catechism (http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/), the standard Catechism of Christian Doctrine used in American Catholic education for decades.

it does not today i asure u.. there is not one roman cathlic church (and ive been to many in several coutnries) that does not partice these policies... they are very much permited by the Vatican... it was a policy change indoctrined by the Current Pope! (though in the past they did prohibit them)

EDIT:
http://www.ndsmcobserver.com/news/2003/10/14/News/Vatican.May.Prohibit.Female.Alter.Service-527679.shtml
in fact this move to backtrack never occured and women are still allowed to partake in alter service.. READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH and learn something about the pulpit before you spew misinfomration
It's been prohibited for as long as the Church has existed. John Paul II even continued this, the whole matter is whether he would ever put any action behind his words. He is a heretic, or at least lacks much fortitude.

18. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful.
Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.
INAESTIMABILE DONUM
"Instruction Concerning Worship Of The Eucharistic Mystery
Prepared by the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship
Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II 17 April 1980"

Scientifically speaking, a fetus' brain functions at sub-sentient levels while in the womb. It has its basic instincts, but is far from being fully human yet. When it's an embryo, it's simply a multi-cellular organism, not yet a human. Even early in the fetus stage of development, the fetus has gills very unlike anything in fully-created humans.

Now I'm not saying that aborting a recognisably human fetus is alright, I'm just saying that an embryo is by no stretch of the imagination human.

If aborting an embryo is illegal, would it be able to vote in an American election after keeping it alive in a petri dish for 18 years?

Embryos =/= human

In the eyes of the church what makes you human is the existance of your soul... which is given to your body when you are conceived... Im not arguing what is scientific.. but what is religious... if you want to talk science... lets talk brain delveopment.. some mentally challenged children are born with the brain capaticy of a monkey.. yet we consider them people.. Others traped in persistance comatose are considered no more useful then vegtibles.. yet they are people... why is that..? it is because they have the POTENTIAL for equal human mental capacity.. and as far as im concerend it is this POTENTIAL which makes us humans... no other animal on the planet has the potential to maintain the same mental capacity as a human does. And as far as i know.. humans aren't defined as humans by their development.. but by their genetic make up.. and the specific DNA... so the moment you are given the genetic material from your mother and father.. scientificaly speaking you are human... because your not any other species.. the argument isn't when you are human.. but when you are a PERSON!

Some people have asked me why I'm not religious. I am religious. I just don't have a religion. I'm undecided. And here is why.

My grandmother was a born-again Christian. She was a heavy drinker for a long time and often was violent towards my aunt. She was married 3 times, once to my grandfather, once to my step-grandfather. My step-grandfather molested my mom and her brothers on a regular basis. After he died, he was buried the day I was born, she went to work leaving her 6 kids home alone. My mom and aunt got pregnant when they were teenagers. So, there's a lot of hypocrisy there, and my mom automatically followed my grandma's footsteps. She believed in the traditional Catholic church, and tried to stay pure of contemporary Christian beliefs.

Here is what I grew up with:

-No horoscopes, tarot, psychics, etc. ordered by my grandmother. "No one should question the actions of god."

-No masturbation. "One should only have sex in the context of love, not lust."

-No pre-marital sex.

-No birth control of any kind.

-Scientific explanation should not come before religious explanation. There were times where I was told not to speak of certain things in front of my grandmother. Fate and destiny was one of them. I was ordered to not think about marriage, dating, or sex with a person outside of my race. "You are white because of god's will."

Being confirmed would confirm to my family that I do believe and live in these certain ways. I could not do that because I could not confine myself to no justification, no fact, no explanation of anything.

What it sounds like to me is that your grandmother is a HUMAN. Being a Christian doesn't cure us of our humanity and imperfection. Your grandmother had alot of problems. It wasn't her Christianity that caused her problems. It was issues in her life that she avoided dealing with her whole life that caused her to be the way that she was.

God looks at the heart. He judges us ultimately on what we believe in inside. If someone is willingly doing evil in his name, we are to be content with the knowledge that God will certainly deal with them in his own time.

Maybe your grandmother was a hypocrite. Lots of people are, regardless of age, race, sex, education, social status, background, or religious conviction. She is to blame for her actions - not her religion. Christianity teaches us to simply love others as Christ has loved us. Anything that does not favor that type of love is not of Christianity.

Whatever John Paul II's position is may be null. The heretic Pope John Paul II is infamous for his many heresies.
Such as...?

I don't seem to recall him doing that much different from the other Popes, aside from a few things:
> Being Polish
> Restoring the ceiling of the Cistinie (sp?) Chapel to its former beauty
> Actually listening to people talk about evolution (but not necessarily agreeing with them) instead of having them killed

Such as...?

I don't seem to recall him doing that much different from the other Popes, aside from a few things:
> Being Polish
> Restoring the ceiling of the Cistinie (sp?) Chapel to its former beauty
> Actually listening to people talk about evolution (but not necessarily agreeing with them) instead of having them killed

Don't bother, Resi. I think this is Defensor Fidei.

In the eyes of the church what makes you human is the existance of your soul... which is given to your body when you are conceived... Im not arguing what is scientific.. but what is religious... if you want to talk science... lets talk brain delveopment.. some mentally challenged children are born with the brain capaticy of a monkey.. yet we consider them people.. Others traped in persistance comatose are considered no more useful then vegtibles.. yet they are people... why is that..? it is because they have the POTENTIAL for equal human mental capacity.. and as far as im concerend it is this POTENTIAL which makes us humans... no other animal on the planet has the potential to maintain the same mental capacity as a human does. And as far as i know.. humans aren't defined as humans by their development.. but by their genetic make up.. and the specific DNA... so the moment you are given the genetic material from your mother and father.. scientificaly speaking you are human... because your not any other species.. the argument isn't when you are human.. but when you are a PERSON!
So an 18-year-old embryo could vote in an election, then?

In the eyes of the church what makes you human is the existance of your soul... which is given to your body when you are conceived... Im not arguing what is scientific.. but what is religious... if you want to talk science... lets talk brain delveopment.. some mentally challenged children are born with the brain capaticy of a monkey.. yet we consider them people.. Others traped in persistance comatose are considered no more useful then vegtibles.. yet they are people... why is that..? it is because they have the POTENTIAL for equal human mental capacity.. and as far as im concerend it is this POTENTIAL which makes us humans... no other animal on the planet has the potential to maintain the same mental capacity as a human does. And as far as i know.. humans aren't defined as humans by their development.. but by their genetic make up.. and the specific DNA... so the moment you are given the genetic material from your mother and father.. scientificaly speaking you are human... because your not any other species.. the argument isn't when you are human.. but when you are a PERSON!

I would like to go and argue the evolutionary stance with you then, because animals have the potential to develop sentience and intelligence. If you're a vegetarian, then my argument doesn't matter, though =P.

So an 18-year-old embryo could vote in an election, then?

what does any of this have to do with religion or science... genetically speaking that 18 year old embryo is still classified as a human... and the chruch recognizzes the existance of its soul... who cares about voting

Such as...?

I don't seem to recall him doing that much different from the other Popes, aside from a few things:
> Being Polish
> Restoring the ceiling of the Cistinie (sp?) Chapel to its former beauty
> Actually listening to people talk about evolution (but not necessarily agreeing with them) instead of having them killed
Every thing about the last four popes have been plagued with modernism and heresies beyond any traditional Catholic's imagination. He has promoted syncretism, devalued the Roman Mass, failed to address sexual scandals, crack down on abuses, and has abandoned any connection with the traditions of the Catholic Church and those who follow them.
101 Heresies of John Paul II (http://holywar.org/101heres.htm)
Even on his deathbed, these continue as many are making it appear as though he is guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Every thing about the last four popes have been plagued with modernism and heresies beyond any traditional Catholic's imagination. He has promoted syncretism, devalued the Roman Mass, failed to address sexual scandals, crack down on abuses, and has abandoned any connection with the traditions of the Catholic Church and those who follow them.
101 Heresies of John Paul II (http://holywar.org/101heres.htm)
Even on his deathbed, these continue as many are making it appear as though he is guaranteed a place in Heaven.
I don't recall any Pope ever cracking down on sex scandals or abuses. It would weaken the chruch to do so.

Also, syncretism is invaluable to spread belief structures to culturally distinct nations. Is Saint Patrick a heretic because he likened the holy trinity to a clover?

Mt-Tau - that's why it's important to read the end of a post before you reply to it, or else you wind up munching on your foot a little bit. In response to your opening statement, however, I don't want to get into the abortion debate. All I will say is that the Church has come down on the side of the unborn, (correctly, for my money) stating that the unborn are living human beings (if you can debate that, you need help) and that, no matter what the method of conception, they have a dignity and value as human beings that nobody else should have the right to take away, save of course for God.

I never did say that there weren't any good people whom were catholic. I have many catholic friends whom have always been there. You seem like a good person as well. However, I will oppose any organization whom goes out it's way to introduce legistlation that, based on it's own set of morals, is trying to make people live thier lives by your morals. This has in the past caused harm to others. I will contine to live my life as I see fit. IF I hurt someone then call me on it, as I have done with the catholics.

Some people have asked me why I'm not religious. I am religious. I just don't have a religion. I'm undecided. And here is why.

My grandmother was a born-again Christian. She was a heavy drinker for a long time and often was violent towards my aunt. She was married 3 times, once to my grandfather, once to my step-grandfather. My step-grandfather molested my mom and her brothers on a regular basis. After he died, he was buried the day I was born, she went to work leaving her 6 kids home alone. My mom and aunt got pregnant when they were teenagers. So, there's a lot of hypocrisy there, and my mom automatically followed my grandma's footsteps. She believed in the traditional Catholic church, and tried to stay pure of contemporary Christian beliefs.

Here is what I grew up with:

-No horoscopes, tarot, psychics, etc. ordered by my grandmother. "No one should question the actions of god."

-No masturbation. "One should only have sex in the context of love, not lust."

-No pre-marital sex.

-No birth control of any kind.

-Scientific explanation should not come before religious explanation. There were times where I was told not to speak of certain things in front of my grandmother. Fate and destiny was one of them. I was ordered to not think about marriage, dating, or sex with a person outside of my race. "You are white because of god's will."

Being confirmed would confirm to my family that I do believe and live in these certain ways. I could not do that because I could not confine myself to no justification, no fact, no explanation of anything.

and you think some random people on an internet game that will never know you or care to for that matter , really care?

i mean this thread is getting more replies then my great ant theory ???
wtf i am disgusted

I don't recall any Pope ever cracking down on sex scandals or abuses. It would weaken the chruch to do so.
Every pope prior to John XXIII maintained watch over the Church to ensure no abuses occured in Church functions and would take firm action on any such that were.

Also, syncretism is invaluable to spread belief structures to culturally distinct nations. Is Saint Patrick a heretic because he likened the holy trinity to a clover?
Symbolism is not syncretism. If he had said to worship clovers as deities and achieve salvation he would be a heretic.
There is no salvation outside the Catholike Church.

Every pope prior to John XXIII maintained watch over the Church to ensure no abuses occured in Church functions and would take firm action on any such that were.
But I thought you said the last few Popes were just as bad as this one.

Symbolism is not syncretism. If he had said to worship clovers as deities and achieve salvation he would be a heretic.
There is no salvation outside the Catholike Church.
Way to misspell the name of your own church and lose ALL credibiliy.

Some people have asked me why I'm not religious. I am religious. I just don't have a religion. I'm undecided. And here is why.

My grandmother was a born-again Christian. She was a heavy drinker for a long time and often was violent towards my aunt. She was married 3 times, once to my grandfather, once to my step-grandfather. My step-grandfather molested my mom and her brothers on a regular basis. After he died, he was buried the day I was born, she went to work leaving her 6 kids home alone. My mom and aunt got pregnant when they were teenagers. So, there's a lot of hypocrisy there, and my mom automatically followed my grandma's footsteps. She believed in the traditional Catholic church, and tried to stay pure of contemporary Christian beliefs.

Here is what I grew up with:

-No horoscopes, tarot, psychics, etc. ordered by my grandmother. "No one should question the actions of god."

-No masturbation. "One should only have sex in the context of love, not lust."

-No pre-marital sex.

-No birth control of any kind.

-Scientific explanation should not come before religious explanation. There were times where I was told not to speak of certain things in front of my grandmother. Fate and destiny was one of them. I was ordered to not think about marriage, dating, or sex with a person outside of my race. "You are white because of god's will."

Being confirmed would confirm to my family that I do believe and live in these certain ways. I could not do that because I could not confine myself to no justification, no fact, no explanation of anything.
So... tell my why you didn't just become a contemporary christian? That would have eliminated the offensive traditional beliefs.

It's been prohibited for as long as the Church has existed. John Paul II even continued this, the whole matter is whether he would ever put any action behind his words. He is a heretic, or at least lacks much fortitude.

18. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful.
Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.
INAESTIMABILE DONUM
"Instruction Concerning Worship Of The Eucharistic Mystery
Prepared by the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship
Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II 17 April 1980"

yes.. in 1980... but in 1994 they changed the doctrine

Fairfax, VA - In 1994 the Vatican opened the door for young girls to serve on the altar.
http://www.womensordination.org/pages/action24.htm

the church disallows all ARTIFICIAL means of birthcontrol


And yet the Bible says nothing about artificial birth control. Nothing for it, nothing against it. Interesting...

But I thought you said the last few Popes were just as bad as this one.

give that fool no credit.. he has no knowledge of papel history obviously... MOST popes before John Paul II who is considered among if not the greatest pope were corrupt taking part in some of the most obsene acts in papel history...

Way to misspell the name of your own church and lose ALL credibiliy.

just shows what you are dealing with

I have something to add, even if nobody cares.

During my child years, i went to the mass for 14 straight years, the last ones obligated by my mother (till i was 14 y'o). I studied in a extreme religious catholic school (teachers were priests and nuns) for 6 years (6 to 12 y'o) and all my family is a practicing catholic, no exceptions whatsoever. I also went to cathequisis (i don't know the translation, im portuguese) which is an off school subject where you get to pray and learn the ways of the catholics for 7 years (6 to 13 y'o).

Me? I'm the black sheep. I don't believe in God, and i think the Catholic Church is evil. As said before in this thread, many and the most horrible atrocities were conducted under the name of the Catholic Church, with their monetary support, manpower, mindcontrol, you name it.

It is my opinion that the church should just die, and that's exactly what's happening. Maybe in the US religion is on the rise, due to government policies, but here in Europe where we have real laicist governments that is not the case.
Over here, there are less and less catholics, the younger people are rejecting religion massively! Thank God ;)

This may shock a lot of people, but i'm really happy that the pope is finally dying. I hope they put someone in his place which is more sofisticated and open-minded.
Abstinence? Yeah right, say that to a 16 year old today and they'll give you the finger. It is my opinion that the catholic church is directly responsible for the rise of AIDS in heterossexual people, at least in the more developed countries, due to the condemnation of the use of anticonceptives.

Just one last thing: if i believed in God, i would NEVER need an organization to stand between me and him. After all, God is everywhere, sees and hears everything, so why do you need a church between you and God????? You can talk directly with him and he'll hear. Isn't that what catholic faith preaches? Then why the need for the church? Can someone explain this to me?

How can you be sure that after 2000 years of the making of the Bible, it hasn't been twisted by the millions of people who interpreted it? :D

Sorry for my bad english.

Kinda funny as some of those bishops go against that, with pedophilia no less.
Well, everybody has the potential to sin...just being of the clergy does not mean you are 100% free of temptation.

I would also like to point out that such things are quite a bit more common among other religious groups that work with children in some way...it's just that the media really doesn't care.

Well, everybody has the potential to sin...just being of the clergy does not mean you are 100% free of temptation.

I would also like to point out that such things are quite a bit more common among other religious groups that work with children in some way...it's just that the media really doesn't care.

I understand this and it sickens me. I just find that a organization as outspoken as the catholics would allow this, then downplay it. I really cannot stand those whom condemn those for a "sin" then turn around and actually hurt someone. Pretty sad....

Just one last thing: if i believed in God, i would NEVER need an organization to stand between me and him. After all, God is everywhere, sees and hears everything, so why do you need a church between you and God????? You can talk directly with him and he'll hear. Isn't that what catholic faith preaches? Then why the need for the church? Can someone explain this to me?


the church never stands between you and god... but stands with you ... for support and reasurance in faith

But I thought you said the last few Popes were just as bad as this one.
Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II have all promoted Modernist heresies unthinkable to their predecessors.


Way to misspell the name of your own church and lose ALL credibiliy.
I didn't misspell anything.

give that fool no credit.. he has no knowledge of papel history obviously... MOST popes before John Paul II who is considered among if not the greatest pope were corrupt taking part in some of the most obsene acts in papel history...

Pope John Paul II was a heretic. This is simply a fact.

yes.. in 1980... but in 1994 they changed the doctrine

http://www.womensordination.org/pages/action24.htm
Doctrines do not evolve to suit the times. You would do best to go to actual Vatican sources rather than a feminist "women's ordination" site. John Paul II never supported altar girls, but he had no fortitude and did not take action when liberals continued the practice. The Vatican did not specifically block this as an abuse when it had the chances and so mass misreporting ensued. This is just like when during Vatican II, a cardinal was misquoted as saying women no longer needed to cover their heads in Church. Nothing was ever said to that extent, but the secular media reported it as such and many churches went along with them without any examination of the decree. It's later absence from specific condemnations led many to just go along with it. John Kohn pulls flip-flops, not the Catholike Church.

and you think some random people on an internet game that will never know you or care to for that matter , really care?

i mean this thread is getting more replies then my great ant theory ???
wtf i am disgusted

Umm... well people have actually asked me. People on General tend to be more interested in religious debate then theory threads. Sorry,it's just the truth. Those theory threads, #1, #2, #3..., are getting annoying.

Let me say for the record that my family was never abusive with the exception of when my mother was growing up. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that abuse didn't repeat its cycle. They didn't shelter me. Well, I suppose they tried but it didn't work. I don't think my grandmother's problems or anyone's problems are a reflection of their religion. I also don't think the Christian religion, of any kind, is right for me. What I am trying to say is my grandmother was a real person with real problems. It was because of her problems that she found faith in god. Unfortunately, when it comes to her grandchildren, she doesn't really approach religion correctly. These things she went through are suppose to be "family secrets". So I actually am not suppose to know them. But because I know them, I compare my grandma's mistakes and my mom's mistakes to mine, and I realize my grandmother never gave me room to make mistakes or to discover things on my own. I also realize my mom allows my grandma to tell her what to do. It's hard to deal with someone who comes in and out of control of your life. Teach by example, not by order, that is the only successful way of really teaching a child. I felt alienated because instead of making mistakes and learning from them, I was suppose to not do them because they were "sins". My grandma and aunt used the context of religion to ridicule things I have done without understanding them. Children shouldn't be afraid to sin and they shouldn't be force to believe in something they don't. All aside, I still do not believe the Catholic church is right for me. It is not where I find faith, hope,or reason.

And yet the Bible says nothing about artificial birth control. Nothing for it, nothing against it. Interesting...
the bible says nothing about submarines either. whats your point? that the ancients knew that some day the control of reproduction would be possible and chose not to mention it?
the church takes the modern world and decides how new technology fits into the word of god. if you dont like it, dont be catholic.

Doctrines do not evolve to suit the times. You would do best to go to actual Vatican sources rather than a feminist "women's ordination" site. John Paul II never supported altar girls, but he had no fortitude and did not take action when liberals continued the practice. The Vatican did not specifically block this as an abuse when it had the chances and so mass misreporting ensued. This is just like when during Vatican II, a cardinal was misquoted as saying women no longer needed to cover their heads in Church. Nothing was ever said to that extent, but the secular media reported it as such and many churches went along with them without any examination of the decree. It's later absence from specific condemnations led many to just go along with it. John Kohn pulls flip-flops, not the Catholike Church.
/me runs a check on previous incarnations.

"Tenete Traditiones", a.k.a. "Servus Dei": You were permanently banned from NationStates for repeated trolling. You are not welcome to return to NationStates.

iModbomb.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

Figured as much. Thanks, Cog. :D