NationStates Jolt Archive

Two years after Mehmet Ali Agca shot the pope, John Paul II went to his prison and sat quietly in a corner with the man whose bullets would have quickly and relatively painlessly taken the pope to heaven without having to endure the indignity of Parkinson’s, of slurred speech, of respirators and nutrition being given through a nasal tube. He sat in a corner with the young man and held his hands and whispered quietly into his ear and even laughed with him. To this day, only those men know what words were exchanged.

I'm not sure I could.

The pope knows that you have to forgive to be forgiven.

Unless your gay, then pfft, no forgiveness for you.

I probably couldn't either despite the fact that I was brought up to forgive those that do you wrong.

Unless your gay, then pfft, no forgiveness for you.
Give it up

I think this Pope will be remembered as a highly intelligent, progressive thinker, great communicator.
I dont know if I could have done that-its likely I would have harbored hatred and thoughts of revenge toward my would-be assasin for the rest of my life.

On a side note- I heard that this would be assasin sent a handwritten "get well" type letter to the Pope a month or so ago at the onset of the illnesses.
It seems he changed himself.

Give it up
Never!

It's easy to forgive when your told to.

Two years after Mehmet Ali Agca shot the pope, John Paul II went to his prison and sat quietly in a corner with the man whose bullets would have quickly and relatively painlessly taken the pope to heaven without having to endure the indignity of Parkinson’s, of slurred speech, of respirators and nutrition being given through a nasal tube. He sat in a corner with the young man and held his hands and whispered quietly into his ear and even laughed with him. To this day, only those men know what words were exchanged.

I'm not sure I could.

You never really know until you get the opportunity, do you? Even then, there are times where you could have just tried a little harder, done things a little better, but they passed you by before you knew they were there.

That really was one of the defining moments of the Pope's career as a public figure. I respect and admire the man greatly, even aware of his failings, I cannot but say he was one of the greatest men of our time.

I'd like to think I could forgive my would-be murderer, but then as no one has ever tried to murder me, I don't know for sure.

Two years after Mehmet Ali Agca shot the pope, John Paul II went to his prison and sat quietly in a corner with the man whose bullets would have quickly and relatively painlessly taken the pope to heaven without having to endure the indignity of Parkinson’s, of slurred speech, of respirators and nutrition being given through a nasal tube. He sat in a corner with the young man and held his hands and whispered quietly into his ear and even laughed with him. To this day, only those men know what words were exchanged.

I'm not sure I could.
i'm pretty sure i could. don't know why i would want to, though.

would have quickly and relatively painlessly taken the pope to heaven

Yeah, right, the pope would be let into heaven. :rolleyes:

Yeah, right, the pope would be let into heaven. :rolleyes:
well, all that really matters in this case is that the Pope probably BELIEVED he would be let into heaven. whether or not that would happen, it's his perception of the situation that would weigh here.

By extending his forgiveness to Agca, he extended the love and forgiveness of God. By accepting Him into our hearts, we will be forgiven and forgiving.

I would imagine the typical American response to rehabilitation of criminals is to electrocute/hang/gas the individual.

Although one would not expect the average person to do as the Pope here, it is the ultimate display that rehabilitation is the best way to deal with criminals - as even a criminal is a member of humanity. We must remember that this Pope was very much against the use of capital punishment / state-sanctioned murder.

I say this as somebody who does not support the Roman Catholic church in any way.

That's pretty amazing. I couldn't do it.

JP2 was a true Christian unlike many people in the world today who claim to be.

I would imagine the typical American response to rehabilitation of criminals is to electrocute/hang/gas the individual.

Although one would not expect the average person to do as the Pope here, it is the ultimate display that rehabilitation is the best way to deal with criminals - as even a criminal is a member of humanity. We must remember that this Pope was very much against the use of capital punishment / state-sanctioned murder.

I say this as somebody who does not support the Roman Catholic church in any way.

Your stereotypical view of Americans is inaccurate. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is pro-life...for everyone. To go to this man, talk to him, embrace him as a brother, is the sign that Pope John Paul carried the true love of God in his heart and shared it with this man.

Your stereotypical view of Americans is inaccurate. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is pro-life...for everyone. To go to this man, talk to him, embrace him as a brother, is the sign that Pope John Paul carried the true love of God in his heart and shared it with this man.

Of course, you are correct it is a stereotypical view. But, if you read many of the posts on here you would not have difficulty to form that opinion.
Naturally, in reality I am aware that there are a vast number of Americans against these kind of human rights abuses, in the same way that there are probably a small number of people in my country who would support them.

To go to this man, talk to him, embrace him as a brother, is the sign that Pope John Paul carried the true love of God in his heart and shared it with this man.

There is a Swedish word that is appropriate for this: "ögontjänare". It means "servant of the eye" (i.e. someone who does something to keep appearances up) and it is pretty fitting.

"The true love of God" he may have feigned to bestow upon this man, but he denied it to so many others.

As for Pope John Paul's response:

Forgive them father for they know not what they do.

Has there ever been a more forceful and selfless example of forgiveness? Many proclaim to be Christians, but we're not. Christian means to be Christ like. We strive to be Christ like, but few if any of us are. In his forgiveness and acceptance of Agca the Pope exhibited that he was closer to being a true Christian than most could.

Has there ever been a more forceful and selfless example of forgiveness? Many proclaim to be Christians, but we're not. Christian means to be Christ like. We strive to be Christ like, but few if any of us are. In his forgiveness and acceptance of Agca the Pope exhibited that he was closer to being a true Christian than most could.

That's your answer? A simple show for the galleries and he's a good person, allowing us to forgive what the church did in Africa and the AIDS crisis and how this pontificate has been one of the most homophobic ever?

There is a Swedish word that is appropriate for this: "ögontjänare". It means "servant of the eye" (i.e. someone who does something to keep appearances up) and it is pretty fitting.

"The true love of God" he may have feigned to bestow upon this man, but he denied it to so many others.

You personally know what was in this man's heart? How did you come about such knowledge? If this was done for appearance's sake, how do you explain that he has maintained correspondence and counsel with Agca? It was not public knowledge, and I only knew of it because of a remark made by a Vatican Cardinal yesterday. Is it so hard to accept that Pope John Paul put away "self" and accepted Christ? In what way did he deny God's love to anyone?

Unless your gay, then pfft, no forgiveness for you.
Not true.

That's your answer? A simple show for the galleries and he's a good person, allowing us to forgive what the church did in Africa and the AIDS crisis and how this pontificate has been one of the most homophobic ever?

Fass go to the Pope debating thread.

I'm finding your attitude very insulting. It isn't good for me to feel insulted because I have a tendency to insult back and alot more besides.

Now, be a good anti-christian and debate it in the pope debate thread

BTW: I forgive you for your insulting tone of voice. (and no, I'm not being sarcastic)

You personally know what was in this man's heart? How did you come about such knowledge? If this was done for appearance's sake, how do you explain that he has maintained correspondence and counsel with Agca? It was not public knowledge, and I only knew of it because of a remark made by a Vatican Cardinal yesterday. Is it so hard to accept that Pope John Paul put away "self" and accepted Christ? In what way did he deny God's love to anyone?

Zooke,

Fass doesn't care. He argues for arguements sake even though he really doesn't know anything.

May God Bless the Pope and may he rest in peace.

You personally know what was in this man's heart? How did you come about such knowledge?

I ask you the same thing.

If this was done for appearance's sake, how do you explain that he has maintained correspondence and counsel with Agca?

It doesn't have to be public - you can be an "ögontjänare" in front of God as well. The Catholic church is infamous for it.

It was not public knowledge, and I only knew of it because of a remark made by a Vatican Cardinal yesterday.

Oh, let the post-mortem praising and "I have a better thing to say about him than thou" begin.

Is it so hard to accept that Pope John Paul put away "self" and accepted Christ? In what way did he deny God's love to anyone?

Those abused children for one. In 2003, the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" condemns same sex "deviants" who seek marriage. In contrast, no Vatican condemnation of priestly paedophiles.

That's your answer? A simple show for the galleries and he's a good person, allowing us to forgive what the church did in Africa and the AIDS crisis and how this pontificate has been one of the most homophobic ever?

I don't understand your complaint. The Church's position on celibacy outside of marriage, whatever else it may be, is certainly the quintessential anti-AIDs plan, and John Paul II elevated an historically significant number of African clergy in the hierarchy.

Whether we agreed or disagreed with him, I think it is clear that this Pope gave his talent and energy unstintingly in trying to bring the world closer to God. Maybe it would be best to judging him to God while we work on emulating his sincerity and diligence. That is my plan, anyway.

Zooke,

Fass doesn't care. He argues for arguements sake even though he really doesn't know anything.

May God Bless the Pope and may he rest in peace.

I think that's unfair. Nothing he is said is an unfair argument - don't belittle it just because you disagree with it.

Personally, I have a mixed opinion of the Pope. I think that he used his prominent position to call for peace in conflicts (e.g. Northern Ireland, Irak etc) very nobally and in the interests of human rights. However I find that the Catholic position on contraception, abortion, womens' rights, equality, AIDS etc highly distasteful. There is no doubt that although it is clearly not the desire of the Catholic church to make the spread of HIV easier, it's position on contraception de facto achieves this.

Fass go to the Pope debating thread.

This is a Pope debating thread. If you want the circle-jerk thread, it's the huge mega-merged one about his death.

I'm finding your attitude very insulting. It isn't good for me to feel insulted because I have a tendency to insult back and alot more besides.

Well I find the Pope's and the Catholic church's attitude even more insulting, but pointing out that they were no saints is not insulting them. Your lack of self-control is not my problem.

Now, be a good anti-christian and debate it in the pope debate thread

Now, be a good apologist and praise him in the thread I mentioned earlier.

BTW: I forgive you for your insulting tone of voice. (and no, I'm not being sarcastic)

No, you're just being another "ögontjänare".

That's your answer? A simple show for the galleries and he's a good person, allowing us to forgive what the church did in Africa and the AIDS crisis and how this pontificate has been one of the most homophobic ever?

The Church and the Pope as her voice, counsel the teachings of the Bible. Christianity and all of the major religions promote morality and personal responsibility. Should the Bible, Torah, and Quran be edited regularly to reflect social trends? The Catholic church supports abstinence before marriage, and faithfulness after marriage. If this were a common practice we would see the end to aids. Do you really believe that people who ignore the Church's admonition on promiscuity will heed it's rejection of the use of condoms? The truth is, there is a cultural attitude that a man's masculinity is perceived by the number of women he has sex with. The Church's directives are followed only by those who wish to lead a moral life.

I think I could actually - I'd need some time in between the shooting and the forgiveness - but yeah, I probably could.

Also, remember that the Pope thought he was dying when he was shot and apparently told god that if he lived - his life would be all for god. The Pope considered his living through that a miracle. Considering he's a high religious-figure with strong beliefs to begin with I think it would be easy to forgive someone who was the catalyst of a miracle and helped you rededicate yourself to god.

It doesn't have to be public - you can be an "ögontjänare" in front of God as well. The Catholic church is infamous for it.


And here is the statement that disproves your entire argument. There is no posturing in front of God. He knows your heart, your soul, and all of your innermost secrets.

The Church and the Pope as her voice, counsel the teachings of the Bible. Christianity and all of the major religions promote morality and personal responsibility. Should the Bible, Torah, and Quran be edited regularly to reflect social trends? The Catholic church supports abstinence before marriage, and faithfulness after marriage. If this were a common practice we would see the end to aids. Do you really believe that people who ignore the Church's admonition on promiscuity will heed it's rejection of the use of condoms? The truth is, there is a cultural attitude that a man's masculinity is perceived by the number of women he has sex with. The Church's directives are followed only by those who wish to lead a moral life.

The problem is that the Catholic church is often a very dominant force in some of the countries with the highest HIV problems. It is the Catholic church that actively obstructs any distribution of contraceptives in those lands, making it very difficult for those that want to use them to get hold of them. Alternatively, because people in those countries are tought so rigidly by the Catholics that contraception is a sin, they will not use it for that reason alone. There is also the fact that because of the Catholic's obstructions, people simply don't know anything about contraception or why they should use it.

It's similar to the Bush regime's stance, if I recall one of the first things George Bush Jr did when coming to the Presidency in his first term was to stop all US aid funding going to organisations that support and distribute contraceptives (e.g. he stopped US funding to the UN Family Planning Fund).

The Church and the Pope as her voice, counsel the teachings of the Bible.

No they don't. They counsel the teachings of the what the church wishes. Ever hear of the Reformation?

Christianity and all of the major religions promote morality and personal responsibility. Should the Bible, Torah, and Quran be edited regularly to reflect social trends?

No, but the Church has still managed to shift doctrines through the ages. It failing to do so now is not excused by the Bible, because it has clearly demonstrated that it doesn't really have to follow it.

The Catholic church supports abstinence before marriage, and faithfulness after marriage.

Both of which are proven failures when it comes to sexual responsibility.

If this were a common practice we would see the end to aids.

But that's the whole point: it isn't. What the church wants people to do is not what they will do or what is the best thing to do. It would be fine, but the church has this annoying habit of counteracting anything it does not approve of; in this sexual education and birth control and protection, and especially in Africa, where it is so desperately needed.

Do you really believe that people who ignore the Church's admonition on promiscuity will heed it's rejection of the use of condoms?

I don't have to believe it - I see it every day. You wouldn't know how many catholic teenagers I've seen come into the maternity ward who, when asked why they didn't use contraceptives, said it was because they would go to hell because of it.

It is very hard for people not to have sex, but it so easy for people not to use a condom (or pill or whatever). The church exacerbates this, and, in Africa, has been known to spread misinformation about condoms (Médicins Sans Frontières have had some interesting reports about this).


The truth is, there is a cultural attitude that a man's masculinity is perceived by the number of women he has sex with. The Church's directives are followed only by those who wish to lead a moral life.

And therein lies the problem; the church has a very skewed perspective of what "morality" is.

I don't understand your complaint. The Church's position on celibacy outside of marriage, whatever else it may be, is certainly the quintessential anti-AIDs plan, and John Paul II elevated an historically significant number of African clergy in the hierarchy.
on the other hand, the Vatican has deliberately and loudly perpetuated lies about the effectiveness of condoms at preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS. if their position is one of morality and righteousness, driven by desire to help and save, then why should they need to lie to further that purpose?

also, the Church instructs HIV-positive individuals NOT to use condoms with their lawfully-wedded spouses. this means, for example, that a child who is born HIV positive would have to live their entire live celebate, even after marriage, because they would never be permitted to use a condom to protect the health of their spouse. any person who has been infected with HIV must live in total celebacy forever, no matter how they were infected, lest they risk infecting their partner and producing HIV-positive children. however, the Church doesn't even advocate that celebacy...they advocate "being fruitful and multiplying," even if doing so transmits a deadly plague to your spouse and children.

Your stereotypical view of Americans is inaccurate.

here, here.

Don't assume sensationalized media coverage gives the most accurate views of people and their beliefs in the US.

And here is the statement that disproves your entire argument. There is no posturing in front of God. He knows your heart, your soul, and all of your innermost secrets.

And yet the Bible mentions this particular sort of hypocricy very often; people, and the church, do it, nevermind that their religion says it's futile.

here, here.

Don't assume sensationalized media coverage gives the most accurate views of people and their beliefs in the US.
Please read my answer to this. Please also do not assume that just because the media is "sensationalised" in your country, it also is in mine.

I think that's unfair. Nothing he is said is an unfair argument - don't belittle it just because you disagree with it.

Personally, I have a mixed opinion of the Pope. I think that he used his prominent position to call for peace in conflicts (e.g. Northern Ireland, Irak etc) very nobally and in the interests of human rights. However I find that the Catholic position on contraception, abortion, womens' rights, equality, AIDS etc highly distasteful. There is no doubt that although it is clearly not the desire of the Catholic church to make the spread of HIV easier, it's position on contraception de facto achieves this.

The Catholic church's position on moral issues has been the same for hundreds of years. It is based on teachings in the Bible. As I have stated before, these same moral teachings are part of every major religion. Lack of personal responsibility is not and will not be condoned to accomodate current social climate. As for women's rights, Pope John Paul, after stating once and for all the enduring position of the Catholic church, took the focus from women's reproductive qualities, and instead redirected the focus to women's contributions in education, family, politics, world events, etc.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2WOMPC.htm

The Catholic church's position on moral issues has been the same for hundreds of years. It is based on teachings in the Bible. As I have stated before, these same moral teachings are part of every major religion. Lack of personal responsibility is not and will not be condoned to accomodate current social climate. As for women's rights, Pope John Paul, after stating once and for all the enduring position of the Catholic church, took the focus from women's reproductive qualities, and instead redirected the focus to women's contributions in education, family, politics, world events, etc.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2WOMPC.htm

Perhaps it's time that it changed then to reflect the 21st century?

I have to admit I don't really understand your post, how did the Pope stand for women's rights? Almost his entire chuch is against divorce, abortion, contraception etc. Sure, it's great if he encouraged education etc, but it doesn't absolve the organisation from blame in preventing true equality.

Two years after Mehmet Ali Agca shot the pope, John Paul II went to his prison and sat quietly in a corner with the man whose bullets would have quickly and relatively painlessly taken the pope to heaven without having to endure the indignity of Parkinson’s, of slurred speech, of respirators and nutrition being given through a nasal tube. He sat in a corner with the young man and held his hands and whispered quietly into his ear and even laughed with him. To this day, only those men know what words were exchanged.

I'm not sure I could.

That is why I had such great respect for the man.

Perhaps it's time that it changed then to reflect the 21st century?

I have to admit I don't really understand your post, how did the Pope stand for women's rights? Almost his entire chuch is against divorce, abortion, contraception etc. Sure, it's great if he encouraged education etc, but it doesn't absolve the organisation from blame in preventing true equality.

Yeah, I don't get it either. It's af if she (Zooke) was trying to say that the church's poorly functioning, and thus outright harmful, anachronism is excused because it is an anachronism.

What sort of circular reasoning is that?

Fass:

How much of the Catholic Faith do you actually know? From your posts I would say not much.

Fass:

How much of the Catholic Faith do you actually know? From your posts I would say not much.

Actually, I know quite a lot (a considerable branch of my extended family is catholic), but one needn't know so much about the faith, to see the error in the church's actions.

Yeah, I don't get it either. It's af if she (Zooke) was trying to say that the church's poorly functioning, and thus outright harmful, anachronism is excused because it is an anachronism.

What sort of circular reasoning is that?

To understand the church's stance on morality, you have to understand the basic principals. Your body is the temple of your soul endowed by God. To abuse your body is an affront to God. If you accept yourself in this way, then the sharing of your body with anyone other than the one person you choose for life, is a defilement of yourself, your body, your soul. The young girls who end up in the maternity ward have abandoned this simple principal and bent to peer pressure and their own hormonal urges. Self control is not easy, it is an effort of pride in self and love of God.

Women in the priesthood...I don't have a firm opinion on this. Women have a may varied and dominant roles in the Catholic church. Their acceptance into the priesthood is important to some women. I'm not sure how I would feel about a priestess directing my parish.

Birth control...This is a doctrine of the church based on 2 Bible passages. Immediately after creating man, God told him, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28). After the flood, God gave Noah and his sons a similar commission, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Genesis 9:1). Given the population comparison of those times compared to today's over-population problems, the church's position is obviously outdated.

Many Catholics believe that a Third Vatican Ecumenical Council is necessary to address changing world conditions. If this council is formed no doubt female priests and birth control will be main topics of discussion. Until then, though, the Pope is charged with supporting and teaching the current doctrine of the Catholic church.

Actually, I know quite a lot (a considerable branch of my extended family is catholic), but one needn't know so much about the faith, to see the error in the church's actions.

As is many of my extended family and my half-sister and ex-gf!

Name me a church that doesn't commit errors.

As is many of my extended family and my half-sister and ex-gf!

Congrats, I suppose.

Name me a church that doesn't commit errors.

Start a thread about it, and if I know enough, I'll criticise it for it.

Congrats, I suppose.

Thanks I suppose

Start a thread about it, and if I know enough, I'll criticise it for it.

Just like you criticize everything else. No fair dodging though. Name a church that doesn't have errors.

To understand the church's stance on morality, you have to understand the basic principals. Your body is the temple of your soul endowed by God. To abuse your body is an affront to God. If you accept yourself in this way, then the sharing of your body with anyone other than the one person you choose for life, is a defilement of yourself, your body, your soul.

I know what motivation the church gives for its action. It just doesn't excuse them.

The young girls who end up in the maternity ward have abandoned this simple principal and bent to peer pressure and their own hormonal urges. Self control is not easy, it is an effort of pride in self and love of God.

Ah, yes, when in doubt, blame and guilt the girls.

As is many of my extended family and my half-sister and ex-gf!

Name me a church that doesn't commit errors.

Errors are what are perceived by those who do not believe in and follow a particular religion's doctrines. We can all of us look at the beliefs or lack of beliefs of others, see how they differ from ours, and consider them to be wrong or in error. Even in the Catholic church there is the north/south divide. In the southern regions Catholics prefer to hold to the older, stricter rules of the church. In the northern regions, the US and Europe, Catholics are more liberal in their thinking and interpretation of the church's laws. These 2 camps' opinions are constantly having to be mediated in the Vatican.

My issue with the Catholic church isn't so much the promotion of abstinence, as I think that's something that should be promoted, but what it does when people aren't abstinent.

Ah, yes, when in doubt, blame and guilt the girls.

The girls do give in to peer pressure just like guys do.

It is the girl's responsibility to say N-O! If they fail to do so, they are just as responsible for what happens as is the guy is.

It takes full curage to say No!

Errors are what are perceived by those who do not believe in and follow a particular religion's doctrines. We can all of us look at the beliefs or lack of beliefs of others, see how they differ from ours, and consider them to be wrong or in error. Even in the Catholic church there is the north/south divide. In the southern regions Catholics prefer to hold to the older, stricter rules of the church. In the northern regions, the US and Europe, Catholics are more liberal in their thinking and interpretation of the church's laws. These 2 camps' opinions are constantly having to be mediated in the Vatican.

So very true Zooke.

Just like you criticize everything else.

If it need be, I will. Whether it be a religious institution, or a government, or a social occurrence like discrimination, or, to take something diametrically opposed, some homosexual men's irresponsible behaviour when it comes to using condoms or the homogeneity of the homosexual movement.

What, because I criticise, my criticism is invalid?

No fair dodging though. Name a church that doesn't have errors.

I can't. But the wrongdoings of the other churches in no way excuse the wrongdoings of this one. You're skirting the issue.

The girls do give in to peer pressure just like guys do.

It is the girl's responsibility to say N-O! If they fail to do so, they are just as responsible for what happens as is the guy is.

It takes full curage to say No!

Yes, guilt them for saying yes, but sweep the church's responsibility for promoting irresponsible, unprotected sexual activity under the rug. As I said earlier: Not having sex is very, very difficult for people to do, but not using contraceptives is so easy. That's why I see so many catholic girls fall into this trap of shame.

I know what motivation the church gives for its action. It just doesn't excuse them.
Ah, yes, when in doubt, blame and guilt the girls.

So the church is to be condemned for promoting morality? :confused:

I did not lay the blame on the girls. Last time I checked, it took two. Self respect and self control are taught to the boys as well as the girl. To ignore peer pressure in favor of those teachings is an equally shared responsibility.

If it need be, I will. Whether it be a religious institution, or a government, or a social occurrence like discrimination, or, to take something diametrically opposed, some homosexual men's irresponsible behaviour when it comes to using condoms or the homogeneity of the homosexual movement.

What, because I criticise, my criticism is invalid?

No because half your criticism isn't necessary. You even criticise the good that occurs!

I can't. But the wrongdoings of the other churches in no way excuse the wrongdoings of this one. You're skirting the issue.

I'm not skirting anything. I'm methodist but know the catholic church. They aren't perfect and neither is the Methodist Church. I was also Protestant and Presbyterian. Even attended a catholic school and attended a catholic church. I have a better understanding of religion than most because I've looked at most of them and attended churches at them. Have you?

So the church is to be condemned for promoting morality? :confused:

As I said, the church has a very skewed perpective of "morality". And what it thinks is moral, does not excuse the results of its action. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I did not lay the blame on the girls. Last time I checked, it took two. Self respect and self control are taught to the boys as well as the girl. To ignore peer pressure in favor of those teachings is an equally shared responsibility.

And this is the core of the issue: the teachings don't work. They're failures which thrust people into a shame spiral.

Yes, guilt them for saying yes, but sweep the church's responsibility for promoting irresponsible, unprotected sexual activity under the rug. As I said earlier: Not having sex is very, very difficult for people to do, but not using contraceptives is so easy. That's why I see so many catholic girls fall into this trap of shame.

I'm 22 years old and HAVE NOT engaged in sexual activities. It is rather easy to bow down to pressure but difficult to say no.

It isn't difficult to not engage in it. What is difficult is not to put yourself in that situation.

Yes, guilt them for saying yes, but sweep the church's responsibility for promoting irresponsible, unprotected sexual activity under the rug. As I said earlier: Not having sex is very, very difficult for people to do, but not using contraceptives is so easy. That's why I see so many catholic girls fall into this trap of shame.

The church does not promote irresponsible sexual activity. Just the opposite. If the church's teachings were followed, we wouldn't have a STD epidemic or escalating pregnancy outside of marriage. The religions of the world cannot eradicate the effects of promiscuity by accepting it as a natural human trait. It is difficult for people to control hormonal urges. Just as it is difficult to control other acts of self interest...violence, stealing, lying. But, as civilized people, most of us do exercise control of our baser instincts.

No because half your criticism isn't necessary. You even criticise the good that occurs!

Such as? (Remember, the furtherment of a particular religion is not something I see as good, so that won't be an acceptable answer to me.)

I'm not skirting anything. I'm methodist but know the catholic church. They aren't perfect and neither is the Methodist Church. I was also Protestant and Presbyterian. Even attended a catholic school and attended a catholic church. I have a better understanding of religion than most because I've looked at most of them and attended churches at them. Have you?

You are skirting it again. How is it relevant to results of the actions of the church that you have visited it and taken part in the motivation for them?

No I couldn't

I go up to him, shoot him in all his limbs, then blow his balls off. Then watch him bleed.

I'm 22 years old and HAVE NOT engaged in sexual activities. It is rather easy to bow down to pressure but difficult to say no.

And you are a rarity. Ideals of what you think people should do is not what people do. It is irresponsible then to deny people information and access to contraceptives.

It isn't difficult to not engage in it. What is difficult is not to put yourself in that situation.

Again, how it is for you is not how it is for most other people.

Such as? (Remember, the furtherment of a particular religion is not something I see as good, so that won't be an acceptable answer to me.)

I'm not going to go digging through my archives to find it. It'll take to much time. I do have other things more important to do than showing the errors of your words.

You are skirting it again. How is it relevant to results of the actions of the church that you have visited it and taken part in the motivation for them?

I haven't taken part in the motivation of anything. I should. I've been promoting adoption over abortion and to refrain from sex before marriage. How much experience with other religions do you have?

And you are a rarity. Ideals of what you think people should do is not what people do. It is irresponsible then to deny people information and access to contraceptives.

Look at the stats of Abortion then. Suicide is up with the girls that get them, as is depression. Yet you don't hear those stats at all on the news. All the information is there. Its called a search engine as well as books about it. So don't tell me there isn't any information or information is being denied.

Again, how it is for you is not how it is for most other people.

Actually it is for most people too but they just disregard it.

The church does not promote irresponsible sexual activity. Just the opposite. If the church's teachings were followed, we wouldn't have a STD epidemic or escalating pregnancy outside of marriage.

Yes, it does. It is extremely irresponsible to have unprotected sex, but that is what the results of the policy of the church are. I repeat: The teachings of the church are a failure.

The religions of the world cannot eradicate the effects of promiscuity by accepting it as a natural human trait.

No matter how much they want to close their eyes to it, it is. Shaming those who act upon their sexuality, while at the same time denying them ways of acting upon it responsibly is, for want of a better word, ridiculous.

It is difficult for people to control hormonal urges. Just as it is difficult to control other acts of self interest...violence, stealing, lying. But, as civilized people, most of us do exercise control of our baser instincts.

Ah, here it comes. "Sex is bad, dirty, awful, disgusting, and that's why you should save it for the person you love". Shame tactics don't work. How long before that is realised?

I'm not going to go digging through my archives to find it. It'll take to much time. I do have other things more important to do than showing the errors of your words.

How convenient.

I haven't taken part in the motivation of anything. I should. I've been promoting adoption over abortion and to refrain from sex before marriage.

Why?

How much experience with other religions do you have?

My mother's mother and most of her family are muslims. My father's side of the family are mostly orthodox christians, apart from those who are catholic mainly due to having converted to their spouses' religion. I also have a few jewish family members. Not to mention that Swedish school curricula have extensive education in the different religions of the world.

Again, how is this relevant?

Yes, it does. It is extremely irresponsible to have unprotected sex, but that is what the results of the policy of the church are. I repeat: The teachings of the church are a failure.

The Church teaches not to have sex before marriage. It is a sin to have sex outside of marriage. That is what they are saying!

Look at the stats of Abortion then. Suicide is up with the girls that get them, as is depression. Yet you don't hear those stats at all on the news. All the information is there. Its called a search engine as well as books about it. So don't tell me there isn't any information or information is being denied.

That doesn't apply to where I live at all. When you abolish the shame the church and different organisations want to associate with abortion and contraception, not only do you see falling teenage pregnancy, but also you do not see the kind of statistics you speak of.

Actually it is for most people too but they just disregard it.

I, for one, do not recognise myself in your situation at all.

The Church teaches not to have sex before marriage. It is a sin to have sex outside of marriage. That is what they are saying!

And people continue to have sex before marriage and outside of it and to other people during it. Abstinence has failed. That's why it is so reprehensible to continue to speak out against contraceptives.

That doesn't apply to where I live at all. When you abolish the shame the church and different organisations want to associate with abortion and contraception, not only do you see falling teenage pregnancy, but also you do not see the kind of statistics you speak of.

Fass, the advisor for my club (M.U. Solutions for Life) had an abortion. She suffers everyday with that decision. She had it 30 years ago and on the day she had the abortion, she breaks down. I also have other stats regarding abortion. SO yes, I have seen the stats of what an abortion does to a female. I've also looked at the sources. Its quite compelling.

I, for one, do not recognise myself in your situation at all.

I said for most people. I suggest you look up the word most.

And people continue to have sex before marriage and outside of it and to other people during it. Abstinence has failed. That's why it is so reprehensible to continue to speak out against contraceptives.
I completely agree. The problem is that the Roman Catholic church is in some kind of naive denial of the reality of modernity.

And people continue to have sex before marriage and outside of it and to other people during it. Abstinence has failed. That's why it is so reprehensible to continue to speak out against contraceptives.

Tell that to Uganda, at least I think it is Uganda. They tought nothing but abstainence and AIDs cases sharply declined and it isn't because of contraceptives either.

Fass, the advisor for my club (M.U. Solutions for Life) had an abortion. She suffers everyday with that decision. She had it 30 years ago and on the day she had the abortion, she breaks down.

And my mother and several of my female friends have had abortions and don't suffer from them at all. It seems that the "suffering" is dependant on something else than the abortion.

I also have other stats regarding abortion. SO yes, I have seen the stats of what an abortion does to a female.

From which country?

I've also looked at the sources. Its quite compelling.

Yes, the statistics for responsible use of contraceptives and women's choice are in cultures where they are accepted.

I said for most people. I suggest you look up the word most.

I doubt that very many recognise themselves in you situation either. At least not where I live.

Two years after Mehmet Ali Agca shot the pope, John Paul II went to his prison and sat quietly in a corner with the man whose bullets would have quickly and relatively painlessly taken the pope to heaven without having to endure the indignity of Parkinson’s, of slurred speech, of respirators and nutrition being given through a nasal tube. He sat in a corner with the young man and held his hands and whispered quietly into his ear and even laughed with him. To this day, only those men know what words were exchanged.

I'm not sure I could.
If you believe and trust in God, then you will forgive that person.

BTW, forgiveness is not only for people who try to murder us, but for all trespasses against us.

"Putting the Past Behind" (http://www.unionchurch.com/archive/020898.html)

"The first and often the only person to be healed by forgiveness is the person who does the forgiving. When we genuinely forgive, we set a prisoner free and then discover that the prisoner we set free was us."

I heard an awesome cassette tape about forgiveness by Earnie Larsen, entitled "From Anger to Forgiveness". A powerful message that works. :)

It is also available in book form (http://www.campusi.com/bookFind/asp/bookFindPriceLst.asp?prodId=0345379829). It just might be the best 5 or 6 bucks that you have ever spent.

And people continue to have sex before marriage and outside of it and to other people during it. Abstinence has failed. That's why it is so reprehensible to continue to speak out against contraceptives.

So with your logic that it is too hard for people to exercise self control, it is logical to assume that the following should be acceptable behavior.

I will kill the man who insulted me because it is too hard to suppress my anger.

I will steal another person's property because it is too hard to work for my own.

I will lie about my actions because it is too hard to accept the responsibility I bear.

I will kill my baby because it is too hard to care for and provide for it.

I will deny my Maker because it is too hard to accept that I am responsible for the results of my actions.

Sex is bad, dirty, awful, disgusting, and that's why you should save it for the person you love.

No, sex is the ultimate expression of love and the desire to share that love with another person that is the creative result of this gift. To view sex as merely a way to scratch an itch is a self-centered morally bankrupt attitude.

Tell that to Uganda, at least I think it is Uganda. They tought nothing but abstainence and AIDs cases sharply declined and it isn't because of contraceptives either.

Source? Because reports from health organisations speak against you. Especially when you see the success rates contraceptives and information about safer sex.

And my mother and several of my female friends have had abortions and don't suffer from them at all. It seems that the "suffering" is dependant on something else than the abortion.

Do you honestly think they aren't suffering? I never know my advisor had an abortion till she said she did. People are good at hiding their feelings. They could be suffering internally and you'll never know it if they are. That is sometimes the trouble. People hold it in for so long till they can't bear the pressure of it and they snap.

From which country?

All over.

Yes, the statistics for responsible use of contraceptives and women's choice are in cultures where they are accepted.

*yawns* So is the depression and suicide rates for females that have had abortions.

I doubt that very many recognise themselves in you situation either. At least not where I live.

God help us then.

"The first and often the only person to be healed by forgiveness is the person who does the forgiving. When we genuinely forgive, we set a prisoner free and then discover that the prisoner we set free was us."


How true! We cannot hope to help heal others if we cannot heal ourselves. Thank you Canuck.

Source? Because reports from health organisations speak against you. Especially when you see the success rates contraceptives and information about safer sex.

No matter what I say, you won't believe me so why bother?

How true! We cannot hope to help heal others if we cannot heal ourselves. Thank you Canuck.

I actually agree with CH on it as well and CH and I don't agree on anything.

So with your logic that it is too hard for people to exercise self control, it is logical to assume that the following should be acceptable behavior.

I will kill the man who insulted me because it is too hard to suppress my anger.

I will steal another person's property because it is too hard to work for my own.

I will lie about my actions because it is too hard to accept the responsibility I bear.

I will kill my baby because it is too hard to care for and provide for it.

I will deny my Maker because it is too hard to accept that I am responsible for the results of my actions.

Wow, a red-herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) and straw man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) all wrapped up into one.

No, sex is the ultimate expression of love and the desire to share that love with another person that is the creative result of this gift. To view sex as merely a way to scratch an itch is a self-centered morally bankrupt attitude.

It is clear that it isn't and that people don't act like it is (and also why the church uses shame so much which you seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker, with your babbling of "morality"). Hence why it is so reprehensible to speak out against contraception and safer sex. What is needed is not naive idealism, but sober pragmatism.

Do you honestly think they aren't suffering? I never know my advisor had an abortion till she said she did. People are good at hiding their feelings. They could be suffering internally and you'll never know it if they are. That is sometimes the trouble. People hold it in for so long till they can't bear the pressure of it and they snap.

They say don't suffer, on the contrary, when I spoken to them about it, they're happy they had them done. Please stop projecting your skewed moralism on other people.

All over.

I'm still waiting.

*yawns* So is the depression and suicide rates for females that have had abortions.

I'm still waiting.

God help us then.

How fortunate that there are people who help themselves and aren't fans of waiting for some sort of deity to do it for them.

No matter what I say, you won't believe me so why bother?

Because it doesn't look good to fail to argue for your stance as much as you have.

quick question: Why are we talking about this now when it happened several years ago?

They say don't suffer, on the contrary, when I spoken to them about it, they're happy they had them done. Please stop projecting your skewed moralism on other people.

Sorry. I bet you that they are suffering but don't want to tell you.

I'm still waiting.

America, Britain, Finland! But mostly America!

I'm still waiting.

www.poorchoice.org
www.afterabortion.org
www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap.html

Also:

Study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion:
44% complain of nervous disorders
36% had experience sleep disturbances
31% regrets about their decision
11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor

The info I have here tells me it isn't healthy to have an abortion unless it is in extreme circumstances.

How fortunate that there are people who help themselves and aren't fans of waiting for some sort of deity to do it for them.

I help myself too but I pray to God for guidance each and every single day.

Because it doesn't look good to fail to argue for your stance as much as you have.

No! I just don't like arguing to brickwalls.

No! I just don't like arguing to brickwalls.

I do espically if its off topic. I changed the creationalist use rationality thread or whatever it was called to who saved the allies in WW1 and WW2

No! I just don't like arguing to brickwalls.
Why not?

Why not?

Because they don't listen no matter how much info you have!

Sorry. I bet you that they are suffering but don't want to tell you.



America, Britain, Finland! But mostly America!



www.poorchoice.org
www.afterabortion.org
www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap.html

Also:

Study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion:
44% complain of nervous disorders
36% had experience sleep disturbances
31% regrets about their decision
11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor

The info I have here tells me it isn't healthy to have an abortion unless it is in extreme circumstances.



I help myself too but I pray to God for guidance each and every single day.

Now on regretted descisions one if they regret it then why do it?

The info I have here tells me it isn't healthy to have an abortion unless it is in extreme circumstances.
Could it be that the societies in which women felt guiltiest about having abortions are also the ones that are the most religious?

Because they don't listen no matter how much info you have!

like the creationalist thread

Two years after Mehmet Ali Agca shot the pope, John Paul II went to his prison and sat quietly in a corner with the man whose bullets would have quickly and relatively painlessly taken the pope to heaven without having to endure the indignity of Parkinson’s, of slurred speech, of respirators and nutrition being given through a nasal tube. He sat in a corner with the young man and held his hands and whispered quietly into his ear and even laughed with him. To this day, only those men know what words were exchanged.

I'm not sure I could.


If it were me. I would not have done what the pope did. I personally what have conteplated choking the living crap right out of that little puke. But I guess the I'm not the pope.

Sorry. I bet you that they are suffering but don't want to tell you.

The hubris to try to say how people of other cultures you never met are feeling! The arrogance to dictate to them how they should be feeling! It sickens me.

America, Britain, Finland! But mostly America!

Finland, I very much doubt, but America, with its inferior secular evolution would not surprise me at all. But have you contrasted it to women who had children they didn't want?


www.poorchoice.org
www.afterabortion.org
www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap.html

Oh, you can't be serious! You expect me to do your work for you in digging through pages called "Texans for life coalition" and "Poor choice" for biased information that might support your view?

Ever heard of peer-reviewed studies and scientific journals?

Also:

Study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion:
44% complain of nervous disorders
36% had experience sleep disturbances
31% regrets about their decision
11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor

The info I have here tells me it isn't healthy to have an abortion unless it is in extreme circumstances.

Source? Original study? Sponsored by whom? And, look at the figures - all shy of a majority. And apparantly not done to see long term effects.

I help myself too but I pray to God for guidance each and every single day.

I should hope no one answers back.

Because they don't listen no matter how much info you have!
Oh yeah, because they dont have ears.

Sorry. I bet you that they are suffering but don't want to tell you.



America, Britain, Finland! But mostly America!



www.poorchoice.org
www.afterabortion.org
www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap.html

Also:

Study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion:
44% complain of nervous disorders
36% had experience sleep disturbances
31% regrets about their decision
11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor

The info I have here tells me it isn't healthy to have an abortion unless it is in extreme circumstances.



I help myself too but I pray to God for guidance each and every single day.

The first site seems to say that there are a few regretted people. That seems to go against your static.

Now on regretted descisions one if they regret it then why do it?

Peer Pressure for one!
Scared of parents reaction is another
Didn't want it for a third

like the creationalist thread

That's why I'm not in there. Its pointless!

Wow, a red-herring (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) and straw man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) all wrapped up into one.

It is clear that it isn't and that people don't act like it is (and also why the church uses shame so much which you seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker, with your babbling of "morality"). Hence why it is so reprehensible to speak out against contraception and safer sex. What is needed is not naive idealism, but sober pragmatism.

Have I swallowed the basics or morality hook line and sinker and followed these teachings throughout my life? You betcha. (Corneliu is not as unique as you seem to believe) Do I reject others who don't follow my code of ethics? No. Do I answer their questions with my own thoughts on morality issues? Of course! What you can't get around with any argument, is that people are responsible for their own actions. No church or society can relieve them of this. As for the doctrine of the Catholic church, if you have read my posts, you would know that a growing number of Catholics, myself included, see the need for a Third Vatican Ecumenical Council. The Vatican may advise the edict of the church, but the people make the church.

If these laws of the Catholic church are eventually updated, will you then crusade against other Christian churchs', Muslim, and Jewish laws of conduct?

Peer Pressure for one!
Scared of parents reaction is another
Didn't want it for a third

If you give into peer pressure i hope you never become a parent (not directed to you or any other person specifically)
If they were scared of their parents reaction then they shouldnt have done it or have moved out
Didnt want it is not a good reason since they have adoption agencies

That's why I'm not in there. Its pointless!

Its not pointless, you can see their rationality and viciously attack it while telling somebody else russia didnt save the allies in WW2 and debating whether a book on college level european history would be biased

Have I swallowed the basics or morality hook line and sinker and followed these teachings throughout my life? You betcha. (Corneliu is not as unique as you seem to believe) Do I reject others who don't follow my code of ethics? No. Do I answer their questions with my own thoughts on morality issues? Of course! What you can't get around with any argument, is that people are responsible for their own actions. No church or society can relieve them of this. As for the doctrine of the Catholic church, if you have read my posts, you would know that a growing number of Catholics, myself included, see the need for a Third Vatican Ecumenical Council. The Vatican may advise the edict of the church, but the people make the church.

Then why are you defending current policy?

If these laws of the Catholic church are eventually updated, will you then crusade against other Christian churchs', Muslim, and Jewish laws of conduct?

I resent the term "crusade" (you people are the ones who did that), but I already criticise them as well. Imagine that!

The hubris to try to say how people of other cultures you never met are feeling! The arrogance to dictate to them how they should be feeling! It sickens me.

Studies are studies!

Finland, I very much doubt, but America, with its inferior secular evolution would not surprise me at all. But have you contrasted it to women who had children they didn't want?

A national Finland study revealed that aborting women were seven times more likely to commit suicide than delivering women in the following year!

Oh, you can't be serious! You expect me to do your work for you in digging through pages called "Texans for life coalition" and "Poor choice" for biased information that might support your view?

Care to show where you get Texans for life coalition? Studies are studies. You can't make these numbers up.

Ever heard of peer-reviewed studies and scientific journals?

Now that you bring it up. Lot of info from the Canadian Meidical Association Journal, British Medical Journal, American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, Social Science and Medicine

Source? Original study? Sponsored by whom? And, look at the figures - all shy of a majority.

Its from www.afterabortion.org

I should hope no one answers back.

to bad

Then why are you defending current policy?



I resent the term "crusade" (you people are the ones who did that), but I already criticise them as well. Imagine that!

A crusade is any war that involves reclaiming of the holy land.
Now to clear something irrelevant up, a jihad is a holy STRUGGLE not a holy war.

If you give into peer pressure i hope you never become a parent (not directed to you or any other person specifically)

I agree! You cannot bow down to it!

If they were scared of their parents reaction then they shouldnt have done it or have moved out

Agreed 100%

Didnt want it is not a good reason since they have adoption agencies

Tell that to people who get abortions for just this reason.

Studies are studies!

Which you've still failed to present, and which do not apply to the people I know. I am still sickened by the arrogance in trying to project your own skewed sentiments on other people.

A national Finland study revealed that aborting women were seven times more likely to commit suicide than delivering women in the following year!

Present it.

Care to show where you get Texans for life coalition? Studies are studies. You can't make these numbers up.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap.html <-- Texans for life coalition

And yes, you can make those figures up, and if you don't, you can bias them or interpret them incorrectly.


Now that you bring it up. Lot of info from the Canadian Meidical Association Journal, British Medical Journal, American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, Social Science and Medicine

How convenient that you fail to present a single one. And also I notice how you are drifting the discussion away from the catholic church and policy, towards a futile one about abortion. I advise you to snap back

Its from www.afterabortion.org

That did not provide any of the information I demanded.

Now back on the original topic (amazed i can talk about the original, me too),
it really depends on the wound suffered and the circumstance. If it was a nonmortal shot on accident i would have them pay for medical expenses but i would probably forgive them. If it was meant to kill then ill make them suffer and if it was a mortal blow but would kill me in a year or so then i would seek retribution.

Now on the unofficial topic change, you should stop soon before somebody starts flamming and ja it wont look so good.

either someone is righting something big or you guys have stopped fighting.
I bet 3 million imaginary dollars on the first

This thread started about the Pope forgiving the person who tried to murder him and the thread has deteriorated into a massive pro/anti Roman Catholic diatribe. Forgiveness knows no religion period, end of story. I think the lesson has been lost?

This thread started about the Pope forgiving the person who tried to murder him and the thread has deteriorated into a massive pro/anti Roman Catholic diatribe. Forgiveness knows no religion period, end of story. I think the lesson has been lost?

CH:

Though we have disagreed on just about everything, I am agreeing with you on this issue.

The Church and the Pope as her voice, counsel the teachings of the Bible. Christianity and all of the major religions promote morality and personal responsibility. Should the Bible, Torah, and Quran be edited regularly to reflect social trends?
Absoloutlety. Re-interpretation and review are essential for any religion that wants to remain current. Its better to evolve and remain than stay rigid and watch yourself become obsolete. One of the successes of Judaism.
The Catholic church supports abstinence before marriage, and faithfulness after marriage. If this were a common practice we would see the end to aids. This has never, and will never be a common practice as long as humans, as biological creatures are sexually wired as we are. Morality codes that were based in archane repression and power politics thousands of years ago hardly represent ultimate morality. But I supppose its useless to argue that with a believer.
Do you really believe that people who ignore the Church's admonition on promiscuity will heed it's rejection of the use of condoms? The Church's directives are followed only by those who wish to lead a moral life.
Here comes the big flaw in your argument: you claim that people that don't heed the church now, in one particular isssue, won't follow other easier-to-follow directives. Then you claim that only people who are already leading a moral life will follow the church!! If this is the case, there is no point in having moral directives at all, since no-one to whom they apply will follow them, if they don't already. You can't claim inflauance/moral authority, and lack of power/futility at the same time.
The church does not promote irresponsible sexual activity. Just the opposite. If the church's teachings were followed, we wouldn't have a STD epidemic or escalating pregnancy outside of marriage.
The natural sexual behaviours of young people will never be eclipsed by other moral directives on a large ennough scale to prevent STDs. denial won't help.
The religions of the world cannot eradicate the effects of promiscuity by accepting it as a natural human trait.
It is a natural Human trait, and religions will never succeed in eradicating promiscuity. Its hte wasy of nature.
It is difficult for people to control hormonal urges. Just as it is difficult to control other acts of self interest...violence, stealing, lying. But, as civilized people, most of us do exercise control of our baser instincts.
here we go, it was just a matter of time. Why do you condemn sex by comparing it to crime, lying and such? Its a natural act, with diverse motivations and reasons. Only two of which are love and reproduction. there are others, no less significant and important.

Which you've still failed to present, and which do not apply to the people I know. I am still sickened by the arrogance in trying to project your own skewed sentiments on other people.

Studies are studies.

Present it.

I did!

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/tul/pap.html <-- Texans for life coalition

And yes, you can make those figures up, and if you don't, you can bias them or interpret them incorrectly.

Ah thanks :)

And these numbers you can't

How convenient that you fail to present a single one. And also I notice how you are drifting the discussion away from the catholic church and policy, towards a futile one about abortion. I advise you to snap back

If I did, I'd be here all day typing it all out. I could do that for you if you like. These are sources cited in the paper I have here infront of me. I could type it all out but what would that prove?

That did not provide any of the information I demanded.

I did. You just don't like them.

Studies are studies.
what do you mean? I fail to see what your point is. Peer-reviewed scientific studies with sources cited have legitimacy. others don't. You will only convince Fass and myself when we see you LEGITIMATE sources.
And these numbers you can't
oh?
If I did, I'd be here all day typing it all out. I could do that for you if you like. These are sources cited in the paper I have here infront of me. I could type it all out but what would that prove?
it would prove the legitimacy of your statistics.

And yet the Bible mentions this particular sort of hypocricy very often; people, and the church, do it, nevermind that their religion says it's futile.

1. We're living in a fallen world
2. Therefore we aren't perfect, NONE of us, even Christians. Just cos we are doesn't mean we are perfect, please, please stop with that misconception, it's just plain wrong!
3. Just to prove my point read the lyrics of 'Down In Flames' by Relient K

what do you mean? I fail to see what your point is. Peer-reviewed scientific studies with sources cited have legitimacy. others don't. You will only convince Fass and myself when we see you LEGITIMATE sources.

Then I guess the numbers pulled from the journals I stated in another post don't count as legitimate?

oh?

Read where my numbers comefrom. The websites I quoted get their numbers from these sources.

it would prove the legitimacy of your statistics.

But not my fingers or my sanity but I will if requested to do so.

1. We're living in a fallen world if our world is fallen now, than it always has been. None of this good ol' days bs.
2. Therefore we aren't perfect, NONE of us, even Christians. Just cos we are doesn't mean we are perfect, please, please stop with that misconception, it's just plain wrong!
who's claiming that christians are perfect?!3. Just to prove my point read the lyrics of 'Down In Flames' by Relient Kpost your own 'proof' if you consider song lyrics to be such.

Studies are studies.

So you have nothing to add? Like your psychic ability to know how people you've never met feel, even when the numbers you gave (which you by the way never corraborated) were shy of a majority or long term effect?

I did!

Where?

And these numbers you can't

Then present them. Present the studies they were in.

If I did, I'd be here all day typing it all out. I could do that for you if you like. These are sources cited in the paper I have here infront of me. I could type it all out but what would that prove?

That you aren't just pulling things out of either your rectum or The Watchtower, which, by the way, might as well be equivalent.

I did. You just don't like them.

No it didn't. I asked for the source, the auther, the funding and conclusion. You presented none. Thus you have not only failed at derailing this into an abortion thread, you've failed to even back up your statements about abortions. Not very impressive.

lol pope got :sniper:

snip
tasteless.

All I wanted to do was answer Eutrusca's question and then I got very annoyed when I started to read this religious argument and abortion and what not. Although one of the main characters in the story was a religious leader, the topic was forgiveness.

After some time has passed, I would certainly give forgiveness if it was asked. Not so sure about the people involved in this religious debate, however...

forgiveness? *tries to remember first post* ohhhh yeah.
That was a pretty amazing thing the pope did. I don't htink I would be capable of it, and clearly he changed his would-be assasin's life for the better.

I'm definately not claiming that the pope was not a dynamic person, and powerfull leader. He did many things to promote democracy and reach out to other religions. However, his archane policies on social issues have done so much more damage than good. I can't forgive someone who willfully condemns more people do die of AIDS, through lies because of a denial of facts.

All I wanted to do was answer Eutrusca's question and then I got very annoyed when I started to read this religious argument and abortion and what not. Although one of the main characters in the story was a religious leader, the topic was forgiveness.
The thread got sidetracked just a tad? :eek:

After some time has passed, I would certainly give forgiveness if it was asked. Not so sure about the people involved in this religious debate, however...
I think the key here is giving forgiveness whether asked to do so or not. Forgiveness should come from the heart and it should be sincere.

Fass:

I could give you statistics till my fingers fell off from typing but knowing your track record, it'll be pointless. You'll just tell me that my numbers are wrong despite the fact that these come from the following sources:

Journals:
British Journal of Ob and Gyn
Canadian Medical Association Journal
British Medical Journal
British Journal of Medicine
American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abusd
American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology
Canadian Journal of Psychiatry
Biosocial Science
Social Science and Medicine

Not to mention other works various people and studies!

Again, I can post each and every single source complete with page numbers and what ever notation I have here.

Journals:
British Journal of Ob and Gyn
Canadian Medical Association Journal
British Medical Journal
British Journal of Medicine
American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abusd
American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology
Canadian Journal of Psychiatry
Biosocial Science
Social Science and Medicine

Present the studies. It doesn't suffice that you say "oh, they're somewhere here". If you're going to be so futile as to start an abortion thread, at least present the studies you claim are there so that they may be read... or is the problem that you have, in fact, not read them yourself, but rely on some biased, second-hand regurgitation of them?

Again, I say: You're not snapping back to the issue at hand, but are driving it still further toward abortion. And you fail at even that.

You're almost there Cornilieu. Now simply edit your last post to put the statistics before the source, and add the name of the article, and possibly a website where we can find htem for ourselves.
Once its all in one post: statistics, comment, source, you're safe from attack.

You're almost there Cornilieu. Now simply edit your last post to put the statistics before the source, and add the name of the article, and possibly a website where we can find htem for ourselves.
Once its all in one post: statistics, comment, source, you're safe from attack.

Problem is all the statistics are in the Psychological Risks of Abortion which you can get at www.afterabortion.org

You can find the document as well as the citations and additional informatino on post-abortion research and links to published studies.

http://www.afterabortion.org/reasmor.html

if our world is fallen now, than it always has been. None of this good ol' days bs.

What?!?! Just because something is now means that it always has been. That doesn't make sense. Just because my leg is amputated,means that at birth I was born with an amputated leg. Yeah, sure.

who's claiming that christians are perfect?!3.
Non Christians seem to expect it, it drives me up the wall

post your own 'proof' if you consider song lyrics to be such.

1.Proof to what? :confused:
2.Relient K are a Christian band and the song is saying that Christians aren't perfect. As Christians they should know that Christians aren't perfect because I sure hope that as yourself you know what you yourself are. If you want more things saying that we aren't, I can go interview my church *eyes increase at size of task* but 1. I really don't want to and 2. Shouldn't you already know that and so I don't have to prove it to you?

Totally, its not hard. The guy who shot him was a hired killer anyway, it was just his job.

forgiveness? *tries to remember first post* ohhhh yeah.
That was a pretty amazing thing the pope did. I don't htink I would be capable of it, and clearly he changed his would-be assasin's life for the better.

I'm definately not claiming that the pope was not a dynamic person, and powerfull leader. He did many things to promote democracy and reach out to other religions. However, his archane policies on social issues have done so much more damage than good. I can't forgive someone who willfully condemns more people do die of AIDS, through lies because of a denial of facts.

Hey I didn't agree with his policies at all. I haven't gone to church in along time (long story). We're not talking about forgiving him. We're talking about one person forgiving his/her would-be assassin.

But thank you for lighting the fire in my eyes and pulling me back in this thread to respond. I'm leaving now.

What?!?! Just because something is now means that it always has been. That doesn't make sense. Just because my leg is amputated,means that at birth I was born with an amputated leg. Yeah, sure.

I was merely pointing out that peoples behaviour has allways been pretty much what it is today. I doubt that human nature changes much, and if you look at history, you'll see that they were the same corrupted, immoral, conflicted bastards we are today 200, and 2000 years ago. The world was even more unjust and cruel than it is now in the time of jesus and through the middle ages. We have come a very long way in the 20th century toward equality and responsibility.

Even if you don't agree with the Pope on a lot of things (like me), you still have to agree: he was a hell of a man. He always stuck to his convictions, always led a good, peaceful life, and had the guts to endure his suffering in public. Truely the Pope of a lifetime.

I was merely pointing out that peoples behaviour has allways been pretty much what it is today. I doubt that human nature changes much, and if you look at history, you'll see that they were the same corrupted, immoral, conflicted bastards we are today 200, and 2000 years ago. The world was even more unjust and cruel than it is now in the time of jesus and through the middle ages. We have come a very long way in the 20th century toward equality and responsibility.


Well then say that, if you get to know me you will know I don't do hints, incinuations, metaphors, symbolism etc. too well.

I never said that people's behaviour was right!

'More unjust and cruel' That is a matter of opinion

Towards responsibilty? I see actually alot less responsibility for your own actions. Heard of the ridiculous suing cases? it seems that people blame everyone but themselves.

I'll agree with you with the equality for which I'm thankful for.

When I started this thread, I had no idea it would turn into a battleground. In retrospect, I should have, since NS itself often seems to be. The point of the thread was to recognize that it's a rare man or woman who has the strength of character and force of will to not only forgive one who tried to kill them, but to go beyond forgiveness toward reconciliation. I greatly admire this, especially since there are some things I know I could never forgive.

In my own humble opinion, a great light has gone out of the world with the death of "the man in wooden shoes." I don't mourn for him because I know he truly believed that death was simply a one-way ticket home; I mourn for us.