NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a general question to all those who believe in some sort of one all powerful God of anytype: why did he/she/it create the world the way it is today? This includes everything from mankind to free will to morality to God's own brain. This is actually something we can debate because if God is all powerful then he can structure even his own desires to be the most effective and thus arguments like: "We can never understand the mind of God" don't fly.

This thread may not be here very long.

Why did God make the world so fucked up?

Simple; To sell self-help books. :)

This thread may not be here very long.


Why not? It sounds like a reasonable question. Or are you saying he should have added something about abortion?

I dunno. I think he was probably drunk at the time.

Why not? It sounds like a reasonable question. Or are you saying he should have added something about abortion?
No, I like the topic, but the mods may not like the title.

This thread may not be here very long.

So I worded it a bit hostilely...It's actually an interesting question if you think about it. If it is destined to go down in flames, let it do so after I've had a good argument with it.

This is a general question to all those who believe in some sort of one all powerful God of anytype: why did he/she/it create the world the way it is today? This includes everything from mankind to free will to morality to God's own brain. This is actually something we can debate because if God is all powerful then he can structure even his own desires to be the most effective and thus arguments like: "We can never understand the mind of God" don't fly.

Can you imagine how boring a "perfect world" would be?

Maybe God's just an arsehole? After all, He's supposed to have created us in His image, and human beings are, naturally, arseholes.

Can you imagine how boring a "perfect world" would be?

Ah, but that's just because that's what bores people in this world. God could change what was boring and what wasn't, could he not?

Well if I was going to make a world with which to assume myself it would probably be pretty screwed up too. Pefect worlds would be boring to play with.

He's angry at us for inventing religion. So he doesn't get involved anymore.

Who says it is so bad?
Who says God made this world so bad and not man?

I see trees of green........ red roses too
I see ’em bloom..... for me and for you
And I think to myself.... what a wonderful world.

I see skies of blue..... clouds of white
Bright blessed days....dark sacred nights
And I think to myself .....what a wonderful world.

The colors of a rainbow.....so pretty ..in the sky
Are also on the faces.....of people ..going by
I see friends shaking hands.....sayin’.. how do you do
They’re really sayin’......i love you.

I hear babies cry...... I watch them grow
They’ll learn much more.....than I’ll never know
And I think to myself .....what a wonderful world

(instrumental break)

The colors of a rainbow.....so pretty ..in the sky
Are there on the faces.....of people ..going by
I see friends shaking hands.....sayin’.. how do you do
They’re really sayin’...*spoken*(I ....love....you).

I hear babies cry...... I watch them grow
*spoken*(you know their gonna learn
A whole lot more than I’ll never know)
And I think to myself .....what a wonderful world
Yes I think to myself .......what a wonderful world.

Who says it is so bad?
Who says God made this world so bad and not man?

Ok, then why did God make the world so good, since he can change the laws of morality. Or, if the world is bad, why did God let it happen?

Well if I was going to make a world with which to assume myself it would probably be pretty screwed up too. Pefect worlds would be boring to play with.

But God can change what is boring and what is not, n'est pas?

god didnt make the world so messed up we did. i think the atheists can also agree with this

This is a general question to all those who believe in some sort of one all powerful God of anytype: why did he/she/it create the world the way it is today? This includes everything from mankind to free will to morality to God's own brain. This is actually something we can debate because if God is all powerful then he can structure even his own desires to be the most effective and thus arguments like: "We can never understand the mind of God" don't fly.
He didn't...

He made the World, then made us and put us on the World and gave us Free Will.

The rest is "our problem" as it were... :p

As for the last part of your argument. Is there something about Free Will you don't understand?

Balancing the equation to favor his own Will wouldn't be true Free Will, would it?

Regards,
Gaar

This thread may not be here very long.

Why? What's wrong with it?

god didnt make the world so messed up we did. i think the atheists can also agree with this

Ok, so why did God tacitly consent to it then?

Why? What's wrong with it?
Read page one.

Read page one.

OK, will do.
Thanks.

But God can change what is boring and what is not, n'est pas?
Not what we find boring, what he finds boring. I doubt he can change what he finds funny anymore than we can change what we find funny.

This is a general question to all those who believe in some sort of one all powerful God of anytype: why did he/she/it create the world the way it is today?

To give the gorillas a laugh.

Ok, so why did God tacitly consent to it then?

I told you that. It's because we invented religion. He washed his hands of the whole thing after that in disgust.

If we didn't have religion, the world wouldn't be so fucked up.

He didn't...

He made the World, then made us and put us on the World and gave us Free Will.

The rest is "our problem" as it were... :p

As for the last part of your argument. Is there something about Free Will you don't understand?

Balancing the equation to favor his own Will wouldn't be true Free Will, would it?

Regards,
Gaar

So why did God give free will? Why did he even make free will a good thing in the first place?

By the way, what's the Regards, Gaar, thing about anyway? Is it an inside joke of some sort? I'm interested.

Not what we find boring, what he finds boring. I doubt he can change what he finds funny anymore than we can change what we find funny.

While we have various circuits off limits to our own conscious control, if God is omnipotent can't he just change the way his mind works? If not, then isn't his psychology the real God?

Simple; To sell self-help books. :)
Dammit! You foiled me again! *whimper*
Maybe just a matter of judgment articulation, that qualifies my favorite quote and a mantra i try not to sway much from ....
"Be the change you want to see in the world" - Gandhi

EDIT: Lacadaemon has a good point too.

I told you that. It's because we invented religion. He washed his hands of the whole thing after that in disgust.

If we didn't have religion, the world wouldn't be so fucked up.

If you're turning the disgust thing into an argument, I'll respond to it: Why did God choose to be disgusted?

Ok, so why did God tacitly consent to it then?

idk finding favour in certian people , loathing others.

'God is a mean kid with a magnifying glass' - Bruce Almighty

I keep seeing ''it was our fault, not gods.'' Could god not prevent us from screwing up his creation?

idk finding favour in certian people , loathing others.

Why did he choose to loathe, find favor, etc?

I told you that. It's because we invented religion. He washed his hands of the whole thing after that in disgust.

If we didn't have religion, the world wouldn't be so fucked up.

so are you saying if everyone thought the same way things wouldnt be so messed up or if everyone thought differently things wouldnt be so messed up? there are many religions

Why did he choose to loathe, find favor, etc?

am i god? plus what god are you talking about?

am i god? plus what god are you talking about?

Any omnipotent god, really.
Anyway, just because you're not God doesn't mean you can't understand what he/she/it does, as I explained in my first post. God can have whatever opinions and feelings are most effective because he/she/it has complete control.

If you're turning the disgust thing into an argument, I'll respond to it: Why did God choose to be disgusted?

thats like asking why chemicals have reactions to other types of chemicals

so are you saying if everyone thought the same way things wouldnt be so messed up or if everyone thought differently things wouldnt be so messed up?

No, I am saying that if people actually took responsibilty for themselves and their own actions, and stopped blaming them other people or other things, the world would be less fucked up.

But that will never happen.

there are many religions

Yes, and they are all wrong. None of them has anything to do with God. They are all just stuff that some people made up a while back. (Or if you are a Scientologist, fairly recently).

Any omnipotent god, really.
Anyway, just because you're not God doesn't mean you can't understand what he/she/it does, as I explained in my first post. God can have whatever opinions and feelings are most effective because he/she/it has complete control.

so your looking for a religion to convert to? i mean why else would you be asking this? arnt all religions theories on what god is about?

thats like asking why chemicals have reactions to other types of chemicals

So you can explain how the specific structure of superstuff makes an omnipotent God have whatever thoughts he does?

[QUOTE=Lacadaemon]No, I am saying that if people actually took responsibilty for themselves and their own actions, and stopped blaming them other people or other things, the world would be fucked up.

But that will never happen.

many things depend on oneself but not everything.

This is a general question to all those who believe in some sort of one all powerful God of anytype: why did he/she/it create the world the way it is today? This includes everything from mankind to free will to morality to God's own brain. This is actually something we can debate because if God is all powerful then he can structure even his own desires to be the most effective and thus arguments like: "We can never understand the mind of God" don't fly.

the answer is simple...god didn't make the world there is no god and you all are crazy

many things depend on oneself but not everything.

Yah, not everything. But let's face it, it people stopped blaming problems on mythical abstractions, then the world would indeed be less fucked up.

so your looking for a religion to convert to? i mean why else would you be asking this? arnt all religions theories on what god is about?

I want to understand how such a being would work. I want to find out what could possibly motivate someone whose motivations can always be changed. No religion I have yet encountered can adequately explain this.

'God is a mean kid with a magnifying glass' - Bruce Almighty

I keep seeing ''it was our fault, not gods.'' Could god not prevent us from screwing up his creation?

if your god was so perfect he would have made us so we wouldn't screw up his so called "creation"

the answer is simple...god didn't make the world there is no god and you all are crazy

Yeah, but I'm trying out a hypothesis here. Play along, this could get fun.

So you can explain how the specific structure of superstuff makes an omnipotent God have whatever thoughts he does?

no what i ment is , your not always going to find the answers to your questions

Bruce Almighty

Lol. I think that show kinda sums everything up.

if your god was so perfect he would have made us so we wouldn't screw up his so called "creation"

yea, that is my point. looks to me like god failed in his creation, if he exists.

no what i ment is , your not always going to find the answers to your questions

But I know the answer to the question of why chemicals react like they do. I think people like us can figure out why God does what he does, and I explained why in my first post.

no what i ment is , your not always going to find the answers to your questions

wow..thank you captain obvious...i'm now going to go reflect upon the brilliant genious of an ideal with which you have presented me for i have never heard something so wonderfully original...

Bah! This world is just practice. The next one is going to be based off corrections to the mistakes in this one. Of course, only that one gets salvation.

Yah, not everything. But let's face it, it people stopped blaming problems on mythical abstractions, then the world would indeed be less fucked up.

like what ? that achilles died because he dishonored one of the gods?

But I know the answer to the question of why chemicals react like they do. I think people like us can figure out why God does what he does, and I explained why in my first post.

that's gunna be pretty hard to do considering GOD IS IMAGINARY!!!

"God didn't create people, people created God."
-Voltaire

read...learn..live..and shut up..

wow..thank you captain obvious...i'm now going to go reflect upon the brilliant genious of an ideal with which you have presented me for i have never heard something so wonderfully original...

yea i wasnt talking to you. he didnt understand what i ment by chemicals

yea, that is my point. looks to me like god failed in his creation, if he exists.

So how can an omnipotent being fail, that is the question? If there is a God, what could possibly be beyond his control that makes him screw up this severely?

So how can an omnipotent being fail, that is the question? If there is a God, what could possibly be beyond his control that makes him screw up this severely?

According to the Bible? Humanity. Free will thing.

that's gunna be pretty hard to do considering GOD IS IMAGINARY!!!

"God didn't create people, people created God."
-Voltaire

read...learn..live..and shut up..

This thread is a test of a hypothesis, not a search for truth. It's a game of what-if. Can't you play along?

So how can an omnipotent being fail, that is the question? If there is a God, what could possibly be beyond his control that makes him screw up this severely?

thing is..there isn't an omnipotent being... :eek:

like what ? that achilles died because he dishonored one of the gods?

Yes that's at least one.

But here's a thought. Next time there is something that needs to be done, instead of sitting around and 'praying' why not actually do something about it.

According to the Bible? Humanity. Free will thing.

Why did God give free will then? Why did God even make free will a morally good thing?

This thread is a test of a hypothesis, not a search for truth. It's a game of what-if. Can't you play along?

why would you waste your time toiling over what-if's that never will be needed...it's like...what if...i lived on a ball of cheese hurling towards the sun... :eek: ...it just seems so rediculous when...there are so many better things to be done

Why did God give free will then? Why did God even make free will a morally good thing?

Actually, free will isn't a morally-good thing. He just supports it.

Why did he give it? Made humanity in his own image. It was a bit of an ego thing.

But I know the answer to the question of why chemicals react like they do. I think people like us can figure out why God does what he does, and I explained why in my first post.

thats if you believe in a god. and by people like us you mean people that ways ask why? , to a point in which we all sit there dumb founded with theories

Actually, free will isn't a morally-good thing. He just supports it.

Why did he give it? Made humanity in his own image. It was a bit of an ego thing.

i notice we've become basically focused upon..the..uhm..christian basis of religions...what would the explination be for a tibetan buddhist who doesn't really beleive in a god but a force and worships naught but the dalai lama and strives only to reach nirvana...

thing is..there isn't an omnipotent being... :eek:

I've already responded to this, but I'll try being nicer this time: So you think the hypothesis is insupportable? You can't think of anything we can do with this idea to make it make sense? Then I have one thing to say to you:

If you can't play the game, why the fuck are you on the court?

Actually, free will isn't a morally-good thing. He just supports it.

Why did he give it? Made humanity in his own image. It was a bit of an ego thing.

So why does he choose to support it? Why does he choose to have ego? Why did he choose this image to make himself in?

i notice we've become basically focused upon..the..uhm..christian basis of religions...what would the explination be for a tibetan buddhist who doesn't really beleive in a god but a force and worships naught but the dalai lama and strives only to reach nirvana...

See the point about free will.

why would you waste your time toiling over what-if's that never will be needed...it's like...what if...i lived on a ball of cheese hurling towards the sun... :eek: ...it just seems so rediculous when...there are so many better things to be done

Because I don't have omnipotent control of my own brain and thus can't stop the fact that these debates amuse me.

[Just to let you know, I did not read the topic because I knew that doing so would bring me more off the topic. If I repeated something in the thread, then oh well, it's still my opinion.]
[I know God is technically supposed to be both genders, but it’s easier to say he…so that is what I will use.]

Looking at the Old Testament, God seems more human that in the New Testament...more protective, jealous and took a more active role in human life. I think that the reason for him to create the world would have been because he had the power to do so and he wanted to show that.

Humans often want to prove themselves, so perhaps that was one of the human traits that God had.

I've already responded to this, but I'll try being nicer this time: So you think the hypothesis is insupportable? You can't think of anything we can do with this idea to make it make sense? Then I have one thing to say to you:

If you can't play the game, why the fuck are you on the court?

that's just the thing...there is no way for it to make sense...because...it doesn't...if you want it to make sense ask your neighborly catholic...they'll like fill you up with bullshit cookies and you'll be so overwhelmed you'll just be like okay if i agree will you shut up?...there are so many little loopholes bullshit things to be said...but when it all comes down to it...yes..the hypothesis is unsupportable...and is it really necessary to strike such a rude tone :rolleyes:

Generally in religon humans were given free will as a test. Perhaps something like "You've got 50,000 years to make a utopia. If you fail I will burn you all." One could say how does god know being morally rightous is the best option. Only by setting up guinea pigs who can choose.

Maybe $DIETY wanted it this way. The whole concept of $DIETY is that [gender pronoun] is omnipotent, and omnipotence includes knowing everything, so I think the whole point is that we won't ever be able to fully scrutinize the workings of $DIETY because we don't know everything and $DIETY does.

but back to my original point, maybe $DIETY wanted it this way in order to make us appreciate the next life even more.

oh, and just for background, for me $DIETY='Christian Catholic God';

So how can an omnipotent being fail, that is the question? If there is a God, what could possibly be beyond his control that makes him screw up this severely?

Yea, good questions. Hmmm...lets say God IS omnipotent. If he created the world perfect, the only way it gets messed up is if he lets it, and he did. He gave humans free will. Like the bible, he told adam and eve to not eat fruit of the tree. They did anyway, 'sinning,' which caused the world to be messed up. But if God is also all-knowing, he would have known that adam and eve would have sinned before he made the world. Even though he knew they would mess it up, he made it anyway, ultimately leading to a messed up world. Now, couldnt he have done something to prevent them from sinning to mess up the world? Maybe he chose not too....just random thoughts...

Because I don't have omnipotent control of my own brain and thus can't stop the fact that these debates amuse me.

well debates amuse me too but i like to think that...in my having participated in the debate i will..come out with something useful...

i notice we've become basically focused upon..the..uhm..christian basis of religions...what would the explination be for a tibetan buddhist who doesn't really beleive in a god but a force and worships naught but the dalai lama and strives only to reach nirvana...

Well as this post is about an omnipotent being and there isn't one in most strains of Buddhism that doesn't really apply. Unless you can make it, which isn't too farfetched. Perhaps there are Buddhist monks that claim complete control of their own mind or something.

So why does he choose to support it? Why does he choose to have ego? Why did he choose this image to make himself in?

Ego. Because he's powerful. Ego.

Hickey, he obviously doesn't want you coming along and just posting the same reply all the time:
God doesn't exist
So either play his game, or don't post. It gets in the way.

The world is screwed up because of human free will.
Humans have free will because they are in God's image.
If they didn't have free will, then they wouldn't be in His image.
I don't know why he wanted to make sombody in His image (with free will), maybe it's because a world without free will would be boring for him to watch. Maybe its because He's a nice guy and kinda likes humans. Maybe He wanted to grant everybody the chance for salvation. I dunno, why don't you try asking Him.

Generally in religon humans were given free will as a test. Perhaps something like "You've got 50,000 years to make a utopia. If you fail I will burn you all." One could say how does god know being morally rightous is the best option. Only by setting up guinea pigs who can choose.

First of all, if he's omniscient doesn't he already know what the results will be? Why did he decide to want to do this test in the first place?

Hickey, he obviously doesn't want you coming along and just posting the same reply all the time:
God doesn't exist
So either play his game, or don't post. It gets in the way.

The world is screwed up because of human free will.
Humans have free will because they are in God's image.
If they didn't have free will, then they wouldn't be in His image.
I don't know why he wanted to make sombody in His image (with free will), maybe it's because a world without free will would be boring for him to watch. Maybe its because He's a nice guy and kinda likes humans. Maybe He wanted to grant everybody the chance for salvation. I dunno, why don't you try asking Him.

But if he can decide what's boring, what's salvation, and what his own image is, the question still isn't answered.

Hickey, he obviously doesn't want you coming along and just posting the same reply all the time:
God doesn't exist
So either play his game, or don't post. It gets in the way.

...gets in the way of what cyberwaves...ooo...pushy internet people...guess what though! "god" gave me free will so i can post what ever i damn well please...is that a good enough point for you? :mad:

Because the test he propseed is wrongly worded. The best example would be: "Don't screw up and you'll achieve eternal happiness."

And He want's us not to screw up, but without Free Will, then there really isn't any test, now is there?

EDIT: Hickey, your posts get in the way of me reading intelligent posts. Or they did. I just added youto my ignore list. Somebody else please tell me if he posts something worthwhile.

This thread is a test of a hypothesis, not a search for truth. It's a game of what-if. Can't you play along?

sure sounds like a search for the " truth ".

if we are making this thread about what ifs, here is a what if

what if ants are planning a invasion against humans?
what if ants a long time ago were just like humans and just as big as us
they kept other insects as pets and were very smart. one day they knew that the earth wouldnt support their rapidly growing population. know these ants being a race of smart and strong creatures decided lets shrink our selves.

and what if one of the arseholes in charge of shrinking them all , focked up?
he forgot to shrink the equiptment and tools and such first and so then all the ants were tiny.

what if a few ants tried to get those tools back and save the antkind. but then an animal which they had long been eating like we eat cattle ( when they were big ) had come back for revenge and ate up all the brave ants ( this creature is now called the ant eater ) now the ants have lived so long without their advanced tools and tech. that they forgot it all.

now ants are what we think of them today. but you can still see their old nature even now. they make great colonies , they go to war , ect.

Ego. Because he's powerful. Ego.

But if he can choose to not have ego, can choose whether or not power=ego, etc., then why did he choose like he did?

Vegas-Rex play the Sims

Think about free will this way..say you really loved someone, (if anyone out there loves or has loved, you know the feeling). You REALLY REALLY want the best for that person, but you can't make them, you don't do that with people you love. God wants the best for us, but it won't mean anything if God just defines what is best for us and makes us do it. And then again, an interesting point is, if God constantly re-defined what was moral, wouldn't we, as humans, find what was immoral anyway? If killing was moral, wouldn't we just not kill? We make mistakes! It's what we do!

And would you force that person to love you? Or would you prefer they came to love you? Wouldn't it mean more that way? God let's us choose because God knows we want to choose. He made us to love him, however, he made us to make our own choice. Thus, man makes the world to whatever he wants to. God intervenes behind the scenes, but only as much as we let him. He's not going to force us to do anything. I liked one particular quote

"How much fun would a perfect world be anyway?"

I hope this gives someone an interesting thing to think about.

sure sounds like a search for the " truth ".

if we are making this thread about what ifs, here is a what if

what if ants are planning a invasion against humans?
what if ants a long time ago were just like humans and just as big as us
they kept other insects as pets and were very smart. one day they knew that the earth wouldnt support their rapidly growing population. know these ants being a race of smart and strong creatures decided lets shrink our selves.

and what if one of the arseholes in charge of shrinking them all , focked up?
he forgot to shrink the equiptment and tools and such first and so then all the ants were tiny.

what if a few ants tried to get those tools back and save the antkind. but then an animal which they had long been eating like we eat cattle ( when they were big ) had come back for revenge and ate up all the brave ants ( this creature is now called the ant eater ) now the ants have lived so long without their advanced tools and tech. that they forgot it all.

now ants are what we think of them today. but you can still see their old nature even now. they make great colonies , they go to war , ect.


Make a thread about it. It sounds amusing.

i'm...a girl...and how is everyone elses post intelligent? 'cause they're living in a lala land of woohoo what if what if?...i'm sorry if i live in the real world...i mean why don't you debate something that might actually be?

Think about free will this way..say you really loved someone, (if anyone out there loves or has loved, you know the feeling). You REALLY REALLY want the best for that person, but you can't make them, you don't do that with people you love. God wants the best for us, but it won't mean anything if God just defines what is best for us and makes us do it. And then again, an interesting point is, if God constantly re-defined what was moral, wouldn't we, as humans, find what was immoral anyway? If killing was moral, wouldn't we just not kill? We make mistakes! It's what we do!

And would you force that person to love you? Or would you prefer they came to love you? Wouldn't it mean more that way? God let's us choose because God knows we want to choose. He made us to love him, however, he made us to make our own choice. Thus, man makes the world to whatever he wants to. God intervenes behind the scenes, but only as much as we let him. He's not going to force us to do anything. I liked one particular quote

"How much fun would a perfect world be anyway?"

I hope this gives someone an interesting thing to think about.

While I agree that in this reality I would not disropt autonomy, God can make free will a bad thing if he so chooses. So why didn't he?

Make a thread about it. It sounds amusing.

just to let you know im a christian , i say this because idk

i mean why don't you debate something that might actually be?

Your life, this life, is something that actually is...

i'm...a girl...and how is everyone elses post intelligent? 'cause they're living in a lala land of woohoo what if what if?...i'm sorry if i live in the real world...i mean why don't you debate something that might actually be?

Can't debate reality. Logic doesn't apply in the real world.

While I agree that in this reality I would not disropt autonomy, God can make free will a bad thing if he so chooses. So why didn't he?

No idea, someone else in this thread said, 'try asking Him'

Couldn't hurt, what's the most that could happen? Nothing, so then what? You move on. But what if he answers?

No idea, someone else in this thread said, 'try asking Him'

Couldn't hurt, what's the most that could happen? Nothing, so then what? You move on. But what if he answers?

Then my hidden microphone works. :D

Because free will is what makes us like God. Him making free will a bad thing would make Him a bad thing. Him choosing to make free will a bad thing is an act of free will.

Now HUMAN free will, which I assume is what you were referring to, is a little bit toutchier. I just can't really wrap my mind around the idea of God making free will 'bad'. It would require God to be 'out to get us'.
I concede your point. Touche.

Vegas-Rex play the Sims

Sims isn't enough power! I want omnipotence!

i'm...a girl...and how is everyone elses post intelligent? 'cause they're living in a lala land of woohoo what if what if?...i'm sorry if i live in the real world...i mean why don't you debate something that might actually be?

well the chances of my Great Ant theory of being true is the same as the
out of africa theory and theory of evolution. i mean come on study ants they are somewhat cool they go to war with eachother in big battles . i mean that focking awesome. i even heard of a suicide bomber ant and thats no shyt im serious

God gave us all free will, so you all, being stupid trashed my perfect world!! the ignorant masses will destroy them selves using there own stupidity!!

God lets the stupid and unworthy people die...

and as an eviromentalist, im agaisnt that...

so start up

While I agree that in this reality I would not disropt autonomy, God can make free will a bad thing if he so chooses. So why didn't he?

Because god was created by old corrupt catholic popes...

but really...god is supposed to be all...for the "good" and it's natural to think that...it's nice to let people do what they want and mean to make them do something they don't...and considering it was created by old corrupt catholic popes...that doesn't make any sense at all cuz they wudda been like rawr do what i say i'm catholic...but...IF THERE WERE and superior being...most likely he's all happy and what not and feels that he already controls enough of the world and doesn't hafta control the individual thoughts of each person...more like an experiment hands off...kinda like...give a cookie and see where they run with it...i don't think it's made necessarily a good or bad thing by anything except people...

If God created us out of love and gave us free will, where is he? Why isnt he down here interacting with his creation?

Because free will is what makes us like God. Him making free will a bad thing would make Him a bad thing. Him choosing to make free will a bad thing is an act of free will.

Now HUMAN free will, which I assume is what you were referring to, is a little bit toutchier. I just can't really wrap my mind around the idea of God making free will 'bad'. It would require God to be 'out to get us'.
I concede your point. Touche.

The issue is that God can change how everything works and thus can make free will something that humans don't inherently want or think is good.

Hickey07...is your name Hilliary?

Hickey07...is your name Hilliary?

no...why?

Because god was created by old corrupt catholic popes...

but really...god is supposed to be all...for the "good" and it's natural to think that...it's nice to let people do what they want and mean to make them do something they don't...and considering it was created by old corrupt catholic popes...that doesn't make any sense at all cuz they wudda been like rawr do what i say i'm catholic...but...IF THERE WERE and superior being...most likely he's all happy and what not and feels that he already controls enough of the world and doesn't hafta control the individual thoughts of each person...more like an experiment hands off...kinda like...give a cookie and see where they run with it...i don't think it's made necessarily a good or bad thing by anything except people...

Good to see you joining in.

I think the issue is that God can decide whether giving free will is a nice thing or not.

Sims isn't enough power! I want omnipotence!

have a child and tell him you are god. like the egypt pharoh ( not that it actually worked like that but wtf )

If God created us out of love and gave us free will, where is he? Why isnt he down here interacting with his creation?

Having faith in something tangible, that you can see, touch. Isn't really faith now is it? It's faith that defines belief in God. And I think that's free wills biggest reward for him. Is our choosing to have that faith

Good to see you joining in.

I think the issue is that God can decide whether giving free will is a nice thing or not.

then you've got to think about whether the God even has a sense of good and bad...and mean..when you're and omnipotent...isn't everything just for shits?...it's like hey maybe i'll make her head shaped funny!...and...he's gunna be retarded! we'll see how that works...

Simply put, you remind me a lot of her..

And I think that a part of the issue Vegas brought up is...what is good anyway? If God changed what good was, wouldn't we just change what bad was? We tend to cross whatever line is drawn in the sand, so to speak

If God created us out of love and gave us free will, where is he? Why isnt he down here interacting with his creation?

sick of trying i guess?

God gave us all free will, so you all, being stupid trashed my perfect world!! the ignorant masses will destroy them selves using there own stupidity!!

God lets the stupid and unworthy people die...

and as an eviromentalist, im agaisnt that...

so start up

Read the thread. There are a huge number of still-standing arguments on free will.

Simply put, you remind me a lot of her..

And I think that a part of the issue Vegas brought up is...what is good anyway? If God changed what good was, wouldn't we just change what bad was? We tend to cross whatever line is drawn in the sand, so to speak

nah my last name is hickey...iono the god would probably realize he created a society based offa rules and just sat down and was like i'ma make this bad and this good...probably wouldn't have much reason behind it...

Simply put, you remind me a lot of her..

And I think that a part of the issue Vegas brought up is...what is good anyway? If God changed what good was, wouldn't we just change what bad was? We tend to cross whatever line is drawn in the sand, so to speak

Again, God doesn't have to make people that tend that way.

VR, if He made humans to not want to have Free Will, then they wouldn't be human. Or more specificaly, they wouldn't be in His image. I'm trying to come at this from the angle you're trying to get me to use, but it's very hard. Also, wou;dn't making pople not want free will be removing their free will?

The idea of Free will being 'bad'... umm, I can't really argue this. It's too hypothetical. Also too one-sided.

Having faith in something tangible, that you can see, touch. Isn't really faith now is it? It's faith that defines belief in God. And I think that's free wills biggest reward for him. Is our choosing to have that faith

What kind of faith? The faith of what religion? Which one is right? If God wants me to believe in him, why doesnt he make a better effort to make himself known. As far as I know he doesnt exist, why should I think any different? Why should God use faith? Using an example from the bible, Satan saw and knew God, yet didnt worship him. So Satan saw God, yet didnt effect his free will to rebell. If God wanted to believe that he even exists, i would expect an appearance from him to let me know.

He doesn't, true. But I think he set things in motion, and decided to stop changing the rules. Maybe he used to, but maybe then He discovered that free will causes us to bring about our own doom really. Personally, having no free will would make life a lot easier on ones mind..lol.

then you've got to think about whether the God even has a sense of good and bad...and mean..when you're and omnipotent...isn't everything just for shits?...it's like hey maybe i'll make her head shaped funny!...and...he's gunna be retarded! we'll see how that works...

The issue is that God could technically just keep himself amused by making himself infinitely amused. Why would he do it in a more inefficient way?

The issue is that God could technically just keep himself amused by making himself infinitely amused. Why would he do it in a more inefficient way?

well..why would he do it in a more efficient way?

if your god was so perfect he would have made us so we wouldn't screw up his so called "creation"

The creation that he seemed to love most was not our Earth, but rather us…which would probably be why it would have hurt him so much when we turned from him. But we were given free will and that means he gave us the right to tear apart everything that God created for us.

that's gunna be pretty hard to do considering GOD IS IMAGINARY!!!

"God didn't create people, people created God."
-Voltaire

read...learn..live..and shut up..
You call it learning, yet you have no proof…which means it isn’t learning. [Keep in mind that I’m not saying I’m right…I’m just saying that you can’t call it learning.]
oh, and just for background, for me $DIETY='Christian Catholic God';
Me too. :-)

But if he can choose to not have ego, can choose whether or not power=ego, etc., then why did he choose like he did?
Cuz like people with egos, he may have thought he was fine the way he was. He may know everything, but he acts human enough to not care about it all.

BTW, These topics grow fast…I had originally intended to edit this into my last post...on page 6 or so...

So why doesn't some other diety appear to the masses? Where's Buddha? Where's Allah? Hell, where's Satan? The common thing in all religion is faith in something that is not there. All religions are based on that for the simple reason that through free will we choose. And through that choice are we defined. It's what makes us human

VR, if He made humans to not want to have Free Will, then they wouldn't be human. Or more specificaly, they wouldn't be in His image. I'm trying to come at this from the angle you're trying to get me to use, but it's very hard. Also, wou;dn't making pople not want free will be removing their free will?

The idea of Free will being 'bad'... umm, I can't really argue this. It's too hypothetical. Also too one-sided.

Ok, then I'll just talk about the first part. The issue is, why did God make people in his image? Why did he choose that to be his image? Why did he even make people? And how is making people want free will more of an infringement than making them not want it?

We also have to remember, that God is Amusement. So he's pretty much always going to be 'amused'.
The world is screwed up, as we've established, because of free will. God didn't sit down and decide to give certain people certain problems, except in extreme cases.
And he gave free will so we could achieve paradise.

[You call it learning, yet you have no proof…which means it isn’t learning. [Keep in mind that I’m not saying I’m right…I’m just saying that you can’t call it learning.]

i have free will i can call whatever i please learning...and to me when i give you a statement upon which the basis of my opinions are built to me...it would be you learning

So why doesn't some other diety appear to the masses? Where's Buddha? Where's Allah? Hell, where's Satan? The common thing in all religion is faith in something that is not there. All religions are based on that for the simple reason that through free will we choose. And through that choice are we defined. It's what makes us human

urm..buddha isn't a god...he was an enlightend person who started buddhism..there is no..worship a gode buddha...just..the spirit cuz he..started this..

VR, while you are a very proficient debator..you simply ask too many why's that can only be argued, not answered. And perhaps, that is the key quality of a good debator

urm..buddha isn't a god...he was an enlightend person who started buddhism..there is no..worship a gode buddha...just..the spirit cuz he..started this..

I know that, I just got caught up in the moment. lol. But you get the idea

The creation that he seemed to love most was not our Earth, but rather us…which would probably be why it would have hurt him so much when we turned from him. But we were given free will and that means he gave us the right to tear apart everything that God created for us.


You call it learning, yet you have no proof…which means it isn’t learning. [Keep in mind that I’m not saying I’m right…I’m just saying that you can’t call it learning.]

Me too. :-)


Cuz like people with egos, he may have thought he was fine the way he was. He may know everything, but he acts human enough to not care about it all.

BTW, These topics grow fast…I had originally intended to edit this into my last post...on page 6 or so...

Again, he can choose to make himself not think he was fine the way he was before he thought it.

And if that makes any sense, you need to put down that joint.

Let's try again: God doesn't have to have a world in which power leads to ego or in which ego is a trap. If God created the world he created ego and thus didn't start out content with who he was.

Allah=God Same guy. Buddha's already been discussed, and Satan is a non-issue because he really can't hold a candle up to the omnipotence of God.

But for the why's, I'd like to refer you to my earlyier answer, why don't you ask Him. And 'we' freely chose to like free will. Whereas you seem to be chosing the opinion that free will is bad. So you have defeated your own argument.

VR, while you are a very proficient debator..you simply ask too many why's that can only be argued, not answered. And perhaps, that is the key quality of a good debator

That, plus being able to offer an answer that no-one else can ask whys on.

If God created the world he created ego and thus didn't start out content with who he was.

well shit...if i were an omnipotent i'd think i was perfect...and i'd base all my minions i created offa me...

"One who sows seeds never knows what the ending plant will turn out to be"

A quote by someone which applies here. I think God simply put forth the potential for ego. And for anyone who knows the stories..we didn't have any ego or anything of the sort when we were first created. Free will was introduced later when adam and eve took the fruit of knowledge (cheesy name for a fruit..) So perhaps God never really wanted us to have free will, so now he just makes due with our screw ups

well shit...if i were an omnipotent i'd think i was perfect...and i'd base all my minions i created offa me...

What minions? I don't see any minons. Does anybody else here see any minions? That's it. You're back on the I-list.

Allah=God Same guy. Buddha's already been discussed, and Satan is a non-issue because he really can't hold a candle up to the omnipotence of God.

But for the why's, I'd like to refer you to my earlyier answer, why don't you ask Him. And 'we' freely chose to like free will. Whereas you seem to be chosing the opinion that free will is bad. So you have defeated your own argument.

I'd like to ask him, but that would be merging into the real world where there isn't a God and he doesn't give away secrets that easily.

As for the free will stuff, I'm not arguing that free will is bad. I like to have free will. The issue is, why does God make a world in which people like me like to have free will?

"One who sows seeds never knows what the ending plant will turn out to be"

A quote by someone which applies here. I think God simply put forth the potential for ego. And for anyone who knows the stories..we didn't have any ego or anything of the sort when we were first created. Free will was introduced later when adam and eve took the fruit of knowledge (cheesy name for a fruit..) So perhaps God never really wanted us to have free will, so now he just makes due with our screw ups

what VR is trying to say is that...if god really were omnipotent he wouldave been able to control how we turned out...or could change the scre wups that we have with a snap of his fingers

What minions? I don't see any minons. Does anybody else here see any minions? That's it. You're back on the I-list.

oh fuck you...god probably has billions of minions...oh wait..ANGELS! aren't those minions? just with a better name and costume...damn i want me some wings..

"One who sows seeds never knows what the ending plant will turn out to be"

A quote by someone which applies here. I think God simply put forth the potential for ego. And for anyone who knows the stories..we didn't have any ego or anything of the sort when we were first created. Free will was introduced later when adam and eve took the fruit of knowledge (cheesy name for a fruit..) So perhaps God never really wanted us to have free will, so now he just makes due with our screw ups

Problem here is omniscience. God does know what the ending plant will be, that's one of his defining traits.

I'd like to ask him, but that would be merging into the real world where there isn't a God and he doesn't give away secrets that easily.

As for the free will stuff, I'm not arguing that free will is bad. I like to have free will. The issue is, why does God make a world in which people like me like to have free will?

I tried to point out that God didn't make us like free will. We scould easily dislike God's choice to give us free will. But it's immaterial, since we'd have it anyway.

If God created us out of love and gave us free will, where is he? Why isnt he down here interacting with his creation?
Well, from the Judeo-Christian perspective, He is perfect, and cannot be around imperfection. He did interact with his creation, Adam and Eve, but when Eve chose to sin, and Adam chose to sin with her, God had to throw them out of the perfection of Eden (He made the rules, and being fair, has to stick by them... what is the point of anything, if there are no rules?), and there became an insurmountable gap between God and humanity.

Then, Christ, being a form of God, but in a "filter", so to speak, of a human body, was able to interact with us again, and become the perfect "filter" for all of us by accepting the required punishment (to fulfill the requirements set down in the rules at the beginning, keeping the entire thing fair). God still cannot be near imperfection or sin, but when we accept Christ, His perfection is all that God sees when he looks at us, and that is why, to an extent, Christians feel that they talk with God and that He still interacts with them. God talks to us via Christ, and we talk to God via Christ. He is like a perfection interpreter.

Seems funny, I know, but really, who would play a game of baseball if there were no rules, and without the rules, what fun would there be in the game? For that matter, would there even be a game?

what VR is trying to say is that...if god really were omnipotent he wouldave been able to control how we turned out...or could change the scre wups that we have with a snap of his fingers

But he didn't. God wanted us to choose how we turned out, he didn't change the rules because he didn't want to. God's omnipotent, but he holds it back to keep that relationship between us and Him open, and of course, give us our free will

I have to go, it's been pretty awesome talking about this stuff, but as for all the why's that lead simply into more arguements. Ask Him, obviously asking us isn't getting anywhere.

"One who sows seeds never knows what the ending plant will turn out to be"

A quote by someone which applies here. I think God simply put forth the potential for ego. And for anyone who knows the stories..we didn't have any ego or anything of the sort when we were first created. Free will was introduced later when adam and eve took the fruit of knowledge (cheesy name for a fruit..) So perhaps God never really wanted us to have free will, so now he just makes due with our screw ups

We had to have free will beforehand in order to disobey God in the first place.

well shit...if i were an omnipotent i'd think i was perfect...and i'd base all my minions i created offa me...

You know what I would do if I was omnipotent... I'd give myself infinite pleasure and eliminate boredom and guilt. The question: why is God too stupid to do this?

Problem here is omniscience. God does know what the ending plant will be, that's one of his defining traits.

Problem here is limiting God's plan. He knows that ego and other sins would arise, but saving people is more important.

yeah i'm out too...PEACE :cool:

You know what I would do if I was omnipotent... I'd give myself infinite pleasure and eliminate boredom and guilt. The question: why is God too stupid to do this?

maybe gets some perverted pleasure out of making fucked up worlds!

But he didn't. God wanted us to choose how we turned out, he didn't change the rules because he didn't want to. God's omnipotent, but he holds it back to keep that relationship between us and Him open, and of course, give us our free will

I have to go, it's been pretty awesome talking about this stuff, but as for all the why's that lead simply into more arguements. Ask Him, obviously asking us isn't getting anywhere.

Problem is the same, God decides what he wants.

And yes, I know you won't respond to this, but others might.

Well, from the Judeo-Christian perspective, He is perfect, and cannot be around imperfection. He did interact with his creation, Adam and Eve, but when Eve chose to sin, and Adam chose to sin with her, God had to throw them out of the perfection of Eden (He made the rules, and being fair, has to stick by them... what is the point of anything, if there are no rules?), and there became an insurmountable gap between God and humanity.

Then, Christ, being a form of God, but in a "filter", so to speak, of a human body, was able to interact with us again, and become the perfect "filter" for all of us by accepting the required punishment (to fulfill the requirements set down in the rules at the beginning, keeping the entire thing fair). God still cannot be near imperfection or sin, but when we accept Christ, His perfection is all that God sees when he looks at us, and that is why, to an extent, Christians feel that they talk with God and that He still interacts with them. God talks to us via Christ, and we talk to God via Christ. He is like a perfection interpreter.

Seems funny, I know, but really, who would play a game of baseball if there were no rules, and without the rules, what fun would there be in the game? For that matter, would there even be a game?

I believe I can leave on that statement, nicely played. Very nice indeed

Well, from the Judeo-Christian perspective, He is perfect, and cannot be around imperfection. He did interact with his creation, Adam and Eve, but when Eve chose to sin, and Adam chose to sin with her, God had to throw them out of the perfection of Eden (He made the rules, and being fair, has to stick by them... what is the point of anything, if there are no rules?), and there became an insurmountable gap between God and humanity.

Then, Christ, being a form of God, but in a "filter", so to speak, of a human body, was able to interact with us again, and become the perfect "filter" for all of us by accepting the required punishment (to fulfill the requirements set down in the rules at the beginning, keeping the entire thing fair). God still cannot be near imperfection or sin, but when we accept Christ, His perfection is all that God sees when he looks at us, and that is why, to an extent, Christians feel that they talk with God and that He still interacts with them. God talks to us via Christ, and we talk to God via Christ. He is like a perfection interpreter.

Seems funny, I know, but really, who would play a game of baseball if there were no rules, and without the rules, what fun would there be in the game? For that matter, would there even be a game?

But why so much punishment for disobeying the rules? Did the world and all creation need to suffer because two people ate forbidden fruit?

Problem here is limiting God's plan. He knows that ego and other sins would arise, but saving people is more important.

Why does saving people have to be important? Why can't he eliminate sin and ego and save people?

Well, yeah god decides what He wants. He chooses, and Him being timeless, that decision is forever. It requires you to expand your understanding of God away from somebody limited by time.

Well, from the Judeo-Christian perspective, He is perfect, and cannot be around imperfection. He did interact with his creation, Adam and Eve, but when Eve chose to sin, and Adam chose to sin with her, God had to throw them out of the perfection of Eden (He made the rules, and being fair, has to stick by them... what is the point of anything, if there are no rules?), and there became an insurmountable gap between God and humanity.

Then, Christ, being a form of God, but in a "filter", so to speak, of a human body, was able to interact with us again, and become the perfect "filter" for all of us by accepting the required punishment (to fulfill the requirements set down in the rules at the beginning, keeping the entire thing fair). God still cannot be near imperfection or sin, but when we accept Christ, His perfection is all that God sees when he looks at us, and that is why, to an extent, Christians feel that they talk with God and that He still interacts with them. God talks to us via Christ, and we talk to God via Christ. He is like a perfection interpreter.

Seems funny, I know, but really, who would play a game of baseball if there were no rules, and without the rules, what fun would there be in the game? For that matter, would there even be a game?

Why must there be a game? Why does God make fun work that way?

Why must there be a game? Why does God make fun work that way?

I was thinking the same thing.

Well, yeah god decides what He wants. He chooses, and Him being timeless, that decision is forever. It requires you to expand your understanding of God away from somebody limited by time.

So there is absolutely no reason he would have chosen/is choosing/will choose wants and needs that are so shitty.

But why so much punishment for disobeying the rules? Did the world and all creation need to suffer because two people ate forbidden fruit?

Because we all came from them, and they were first. Though they 'broke' the world, we've all had to live wth the consequences of their mistake.

And sin and ego are a part of free will (ego being a sin, I will argue sin). Free will allows us to sin, but without free will there couldn't be salvation.

I think I vaguely same someone taking up my banner, and outside pressures command me to relinquish the computer, so I say Adieu, whyever he thinks what he thinks.

Me, I think this whole thread shows that God doesn't work without limits.

Because we all came from them, and they were first. Though they 'broke' the world, we've all had to live wth the consequences of their mistake.

And sin and ego are a part of free will (ego being a sin, I will argue sin). Free will allows us to sin, but without free will there couldn't be salvation.

Why did God think it necessary to punish them that way? Could he not give them something less as the consequence? God created everything, he created the oportunity for them to sin and he also created the consequences of sin. So why did he make them so harsh?

Why must there be a game? Why does God make fun work that way?
All I can say to that is what has been said before... ask Him. I can try to explain until I am blue in the face, but really, that doesn't matter. What matters is what we have now... this world.

He made us like Him. Therefor, since we want to have people choose to love us, and not be forced to love us, He also has that desire. Without the "game" (and I use that term loosely), we would not be able to choose anything, let alone choose to love Him.

Again, he can choose to make himself not think he was fine the way he was before he thought it.

And if that makes any sense, you need to put down that joint.

Let's try again: God doesn't have to have a world in which power leads to ego or in which ego is a trap. If God created the world he created ego and thus didn't start out content with who he was.

When I see somebody with a big ego they tend to be very sure of themselves and sure that they don't have a big ego...and since I like to think of God as being fairly human-like, I think even god may follow this.

this question is a conundrum so you may as well quit

Why did God think it necessary to punish them that way? Could he not give them something less as the consequence? God created everything, he created the oportunity for them to sin and he also created the consequences of sin. So why did he make them so harsh?

You want your kids to be safe, right? If you caught your kid jumping in front of cars for fun, you would severely punish him or her, right? Why do you punish them? To be cruel? or is it because you love them, and want them to be safe?

Why do you give them the freedom to do anything at all? Because you love them. Why do you allow them outside at all? Because you love them, and controlling everything they do would make them not love you. You give them freedom so that they may be their own person, while at the same time, you desperately hope that they will choose on their own to love you.

Harsh punishments show the level of love for the punished by the punisher. God loves us totally and completely, since He IS love, so his punishment must be complete, otherwise He would be giving you less than His perfect love.

EDIT: Well, on this note, I must be going. It's been interesting... far more interesting than most of these religion based discussions usually are. Thank you all for discussing this with thought and intelligence. Good night.

alright, let me have a stab at this topic.
I'll try to form as logical an argument as I can, with as few assumptions.

ok...we're assuming that there is an omnipitent, omniscient being, called god, and that humans have free will (perhaps granted to them by the omnipitent being, but that doesn't matter, as a god could remove our free will easily enough with his omnipitence).

ok, why does god have the desires he does, and not just change them so that he thinks good is bad, up is down, and make him amused already without creating the world. Simple answer: Either he can, or he can't.
Follow my logic.
Assume that there is a god that can change who and what he is. He starts at some point, and either wants to change himself or he doesn't. If he doesn't want to change himself, then he doesn't (since his omniscient and omnipitent no outside influences will force him to do something he doesn't want to do). If he does want to change himself, then he does. And becomes god version 2. God version 2 either wants to change himself, or he doesn't. This will continue until he either changes himself into a being exactly the same as something he has been already, which will put himself into a loop, going through a cycle of changes, or he will never change himself to exactly the same thing twice. (I'm assuming here there are no outside influences that will modify his desires. If so, just include those influences as "changes", and the logic still holds). Now, either he changes forever, ends up in a loop of changes, or gets to a state where he doesn't want to keep changing anymore.
We now have a predictable god, with certain (but possibly cycling) desires, or a completely random god.
With a predictable god, we can say "he wanted free will, because he wanted it" and if someone says "Why didn't he just make himself not want free will" we can say "because he didn't want to change himself in that way". God will still follow his own desires at any given moment.
OR we have a forever-changing god. And since he has as long as he wants to keep changing himself, and we don't exist to experience time or the universe until he bothers to create us...we end up with a random god who happens to want to create the universe, earth, and humans with free will. The random god just randomly created us, from whatever motivations he had at the time.

Makes sense? I hope so.

What's the next question....if he can see the future, and they're going to screw up, why give humans free will?
Because he wanted to, from his possibly random motivation at the time? Because he can see the future, and knows it's for the best in the long run? Because he has an ego and wants us to choose to worship him? Who knows, really. That's a matter for priests and personal interpretation more than logic.
From my personal gut feelings, I like programming, and if I could program myself a thinking robot, I would. If I could program it with free will, even though I know it'll screw up, I would (unless I knew something completely disasterous was going to happen. So I'd limit its free will in those cases). And, my now thinking robot with free will...well, when I see my friends and family going to do something stupid, I try to warn them against it, but really, it's their choice and I accept that. I'd accept that from my robot too. Perhaps its similar? Assuming God thinks similarly to me, which is hugely egotistical of me. And that's assuming God is even close to human, which I don't want to assume in this argument. Perhaps free will was a fluke, a chance occurance of the way that the universe was created. God could have removed it, but chose not to from his motivations at the time.

why is the world so bad? aha. I'd put that down to human nature.
See, there's a whole lot of wonderful things in the world, as has been pointed out. And a whole lot of bad things. And, you know what? We judge how good something is from looking at the other good things. And how bad something is from looking at the other bad things.
I come home and say "I had a terrible day" when I was busy, or bored, at work. And had to stay late.
Actually, what I should be saying is "I had a wonderful day" because my friends and family are all healthy, I earned enough money to support myself and my girlfriend for that day, and put some aside for the future, I live in a country that guarantees my political and social freedom, and nobody was trying to kill me or my people. Anyone from a warzone would give a lot to trade places with me. But, I'm not used to it.
And, if we had no wars, I'm sure people would be asking this exact same question, why, god, did you put evil in the world?
Maybe so we can appreciate good?
maybe evil needs to exist so that good CAN exist?
maybe good and evil don't even exist, and it's just how our brains interpret it.
Maybe without wants and desires, humans wouldn't do anything, maybe without wants and desires it's just logically impossible to have anything good, or nice, or creative, or....
...honestly, what's the point of the natural processes like wind and rain creating wonderful rock statues, if nobody appreciates them?
And how can you appreciate them, if you don't have non-wonderful boring rocks to compare them to?

And, what if there really is a good world, would people complain to god that humans still stub their toes? because, to their mind, that's such a horrendously horrible thing?

and, my logic has fallen down somewhat, but I could construct an argument if you really want me to.

either way, enjoy this screwed up world, despite its failings, it's about the most wonderful thing. And *really* enjoy the fact that you have a brain capable of understanding just how wonderful it is. Whether you believe in a god or not.

I understand justice, I just dont see how the punishment fits the crime. We shouldnt be given the death penalty for stealing an apple. Why such a big punishment for such a small crime? Not only that, its an eternal death. I dont see how it is justified. And yes, in the senario you gave I would punish my kids, but I would eventually end it. Adam and eve's punishment not only was on them, forever, but also on thier children and on the rest of the entire world.

Earth's Orbit: Well said.

Ah, but they didn't just "steal an apple" they directly disobeyed a direct instruction from God.

If your kid stole an apple, you'd punish them. But you'd probably punish them more if they stole it from the neighbours tree than from a tree in the street. And probably even more if the neighbour told them not to eat the apples.

And probably even more if they stole it from the kings orchard. And probably yet more if the king himself told them not to steal it.

And, as god is infinately greater than any king, shouldn't the punishment deserved be infinately harsher?

myself, I don't believe in the adam & eve story literally, and I'm not sure that even in this hypotetical discussion it's useful to talk about god's punishments, as we can always counter with "how do you know he's punishing you" or "how do you know it happened like that"

I understand justice, I just dont see how the punishment fits the crime. We shouldnt be given the death penalty for stealing an apple. Why such a big punishment for such a small crime? Not only that, its an eternal death. I dont see how it is justified. And yes, in the senario you gave I would punish my kids, but I would eventually end it. Adam and eve's punishment not only was on them, forever, but also on thier children and on the rest of the entire world.

They were given another way to come back to God (the sacraficial lamb, that took the punishment for that year's sin), and then thousands of years later, at the exact right time to bring the most to salvation, Christ came, and ended the cycle of yearly sacrifices so that His sacrafice was the final and complete sacrifice to free us from our punishment, so it is not forever. All we have to do is accept the salvation and devote the rest of our life to pursuing a closer relationship with Him and with Christ.

Now I really must be done for the night. Again, thank you for the great debate. I enjoyed it, and hopefully we all have had our minds stretched a little, and have become better for the time spent in this discussion. I truly hope that you all find truth, and all find happiness in that truth. I personally, have found that truth in Christ, and have become immeasureably happy ever since. In HIM, I say good night.

if we do want to discuss adam & eve and the christian god, my response is "well, god loves a good story"

God knew what was coming, knew they'd take the apple. He didn't want to throw them out, it was still their choice, but he knew what they'd do.
The garden of eden, it's all a bit setup, act 1 of the play that is "creation", so that humans can end up in the world, multiplying like they obviously were designed to do (or why make male and female in the garden?)

the snake, the apple, it's a way to get good and evil into the world, so that we can use our wonderful free will to choose god over evil.

He knew it was coming, but it was still adam & eve's fault that they took the apple.

And, as for infinite punishment, if it wasn't for my "punishment" of "eternal death" I would never have been created or be here to appreciate life. So I don't think that it was the harshest punishment ever.

Can God make a rock he cannot lift?

If he can, he's not all poweful, is he? If he can't, he's not all powerful is he?

They were given another way to come back to God (the sacraficial lamb, that took the punishment for that year's sin), and then thousands of years later, at the exact right time to bring the most to salvation, Christ came, and ended the cycle of yearly sacrifices so that His sacrafice was the final and complete sacrifice to free us from our punishment, so it is not forever. All we have to do is accept the salvation and devote the rest of our life to pursuing a closer relationship with Him and with Christ.

I always thought about the sacrifice. Why does God require blood atonement? Why does the killing of an animal mean that sins are forgiven? Why cant he simply forgive? It reminds me of Cain and Abel in Genesis 4. They both brought gifts to God. Cain brought fruit and Abel fat from his flock. God liked Abels but not Cains. I dont understand that.

God knew what was coming, knew they'd take the apple. He didn't want to throw them out, it was still their choice, but he knew what they'd do.
The garden of eden, it's all a bit setup, act 1 of the play that is "creation", so that humans can end up in the world, multiplying like they obviously were designed to do (or why make male and female in the garden?)

the snake, the apple, it's a way to get good and evil into the world, so that we can use our wonderful free will to choose god over evil.

He knew it was coming, but it was still adam & eve's fault that they took the apple.

If it was a setup, then God really wanted them to sin. God knows if he makes the tree, adam and eve will eat the fruit. God still makes the tree. If he counted on thier sin, he used that as part of his plan. I dont like the idea, that God planed all this out.

Maybe God uses this world to manipulate our free will to get the result he wants. He made heaven and hell for a reason. He foresaw all those that will be in heaven and hell, yet still made the world as it was. Could he not have done something differently that would not cause so much pain and suffering?

Of course he can't.

That's just a silly word game.
God is limited by logic, he can't do anything that can't make sense.

he's limited by the rules he created, the rules he built the universe on.

Sure, I can program a computer game, and if I have a powerful enough computer and enough time, I can make anything happen in my game. But, when I put fingers to keyboards, and start writing the underlying code for the game, that limits how the game has to "work" (programming-wise). I could redo it from scratch, but while I want to use my previous work, I need to follow my previous rules.

God can't create a rock too big for himself to lift, because the "rules" we have here is that god is all-powerful. So such a rock cannot possibly exist in our universe. If that rock can't possibly exist, god can't create it.

Can God make a rock he cannot lift?

If he can, he's not all poweful, is he? If he can't, he's not all powerful is he?

Thats not good argument. Its self-contradictory. Its like saying can god make a squared circle, or a four sided triangle.

This topic sprouted several delightful asides (which I engage in further down in this post), but the primary question is this:
"How does it make any sense that an omnipotent, omniscient being would create anything that the being is displeased by?"

Why create rules and create people who you know will break them?

I've seen several people claim that free will is a good thing and several claim that free will messed up the world. Without looking back, I don't recall whether there was anyone who claimed both, but I think doing so would be pretty stupid unless you're willing to say that messing up the world is a good thing.

How could humans possibly do anything contrary to what God wants? How is anything "bad" in the world not there by His choice? It is not possible for a being to be both omnipotent and opposed.

If we are made in God's image, is God no more all-knowing and all-powerful than we are?

yep, the apple was all a big set up. But, hey, the devil got a worse deal. He was set up to challenge god himself. And he didn't even have free will!
Which means he had no choice and was destined to rebel. God needed (wanted?) him for his part in creating good and evil.

Adam and eve were set up, but they had free will, so they could have chosen to do otherwise. God knew they wouldn't, but it was still their choice.
It's like if I take a homeless man in off the street, and say "here, have the key to my house. I know you're a drug addict, but you deserve a place to stay and food. Stay over anytime. Abuse my hospitality, however, and I'll throw you out of the city". Someone could predict that the addict would steal my stuff and sell it for more drugs. Or abuse my hospitality. But it's still the addict doing the wrong thing. I'm giving the addict a chance. God happens to know the future, but adam and even didn't. They had their chance.
Should god have not given them the chance? I think that it's important, even if you know how it's going to turn out. The addict, getting thrown out of the city, might realize what he's lost, the betrayal he's caused, and quit drugs? Who knows? Adam and eve might learn from the experience, discover all they've lost. Or us that follow might yearn for the garden that our forebearers lost to us, and that might inspire us to do good deeds and earn our way into heaven, in a way that may never have happened if god just plonked adam and even on earth and said "make children. It'll be fun."

I've seen several people claim that free will is a good thing and several claim that free will messed up the world. Without looking back, I don't recall whether there was anyone who claimed both, but I think doing so would be pretty stupid unless you're willing to say that messing up the world is a good thing.


I claim that free will is good, and that it messed up the world.
Messing up the world is NOT a good thing, but having the capacity to mess it up definately IS. It means that any part of the world that could possibly have been messed up but ISN'T is an achievement (of sorts).

You don't say that I was particularly angelic every day, just because I didn't punch someone in the head. But you *do* say that I was angelic when I don't punch a really annoying, insulting guy in the head. Because I had the desire and potential to do wrong, and chose not to.

So, free will messed up the world. But free will also is what allows us humans to be the wonderful, caring creatures that we have the potential to be, and every time someone creates a work of art instead of smashing someone elses work, or helps a friend instead of hurting an enemy, well...that's good in the world that wouldn't be as valauble without free will.

Who cares that angels are good, they *can't* do wrong unless god wills it. Much more impressive when a human is good, when they could have been gun running, or using rude words.

yep, the apple was all a big set up. But, hey, the devil got a worse deal. He was set up to challenge god himself. And he didn't even have free will!
Which means he had no choice and was destined to rebel. God needed (wanted?) him for his part in creating good and evil.

Adam and eve were set up, but they had free will, so they could have chosen to do otherwise. God knew they wouldn't, but it was still their choice.
It's like if I take a homeless man in off the street, and say "here, have the key to my house. I know you're a drug addict, but you deserve a place to stay and food. Stay over anytime. Abuse my hospitality, however, and I'll throw you out of the city". Someone could predict that the addict would steal my stuff and sell it for more drugs. Or abuse my hospitality. But it's still the addict doing the wrong thing. I'm giving the addict a chance. God happens to know the future, but adam and even didn't. They had their chance.
Should god have not given them the chance? I think that it's important, even if you know how it's going to turn out. The addict, getting thrown out of the city, might realize what he's lost, the betrayal he's caused, and quit drugs? Who knows? Adam and eve might learn from the experience, discover all they've lost. Or us that follow might yearn for the garden that our forebearers lost to us, and that might inspire us to do good deeds and earn our way into heaven, in a way that may never have happened if god just plonked adam and even on earth and said "make children. It'll be fun."

I dont like that at all. Satan was part of Gods plan too? Most would say that Satan had free will just like any other angel, or human. If it is all a set up than the worlds status is Gods fault. It is his fault that it is messed up because he could have prevented the whole thing. If he wanted it to happen than that was his plan all along.

I disagree with you also with giving them a chance. They never had one. God knew they would sin. There was NO chance that they would not sin. If I was with another person, and we were about to cross an old bridge, and I foresaw the bridge breaking while the other person was on it, i certainly would not allow that person to walk across it. Unless it was part of my plan, to get the person to walk on the bridge so that it falls. Thats what it looks like to me.

Thats not good argument. Its self-contradictory. Its like saying can god make a squared circle, or a four sided triangle.

I can't make a four sided triangle, but I *can* make a four sided pyramid.

Fun with shapes!

I dont like that at all. Satan was part of Gods plan too? Most would say that Satan had free will just like any other angel, or human. If it is all a set up than the worlds status is Gods fault. It is his fault that it is messed up because he could have prevented the whole thing. If he wanted it to happen than that was his plan all along.

I disagree with you also with giving them a chance. They never had one. God knew they would sin. There was NO chance that they would not sin. If I was with another person, and we were about to cross an old bridge, and I foresaw the bridge breaking while the other person was on it, i certainly would not allow that person to walk across it.

ok, a few points. First of all, no offence, what you "like" has little to no bearing on the discussion. Other people like the idea. God most likely didn't predict what you'd like and take it into account with any large amount of weighting on his actions.

Yes, satan was part of god's plan, since, technically, *everything* is part of his plan. Satan *does* have free will "just like any other angel", however angels don't have free will. That's what sets humans apart from gods other creations (and technically animals don't have free will either. Justify that evolutionary christians!)
He could have stopped bad things happening (although see my previous post about how we're maybe overreacting about how bad the world really is). He may not have wanted to. Perhaps his plan includes what we want and will do with our free will, and it's not that god necessarily wanted that.

I *want* my children to think I'm great. That doesn't mean I'll give them subliminal messages while they sleep telling them how great their father is. God *wants* us to make the right choices with our free will, but leaves us to make the choices, right or wrong. Otherwise it's not really free will, is it?

Also, just because god knew something would happen doesn't mean they didn't make their own choices.
If someone phones me up and says "Hey, a mass murderer has escaped and has a bomb and a boatload of egyptian goats. And he hates goats. And wants to commit suicide" and I know, not just suspect but *know* with certainty that he's going to blow up those poor, innocent goats...does that make it my fault? No.

What if I could have stopped him, knowing he'd do that? Perhaps it does. But I can't stop him without restricting his free will (which is acceptable - free will doesn't mean the ability to do anything whenever we want. God limits our free will, e.g. with gravity). If I'm all powerful, maybe a better solution would be to let him blow up those goats, but take them straight to goat-heaven where they can frolic with the little white lambs. And maybe it'll result in goat-murderer number 2 seeing the upset that it causes, and reconsidering. Or in other ways make the world better. Or maybe not, and it's up to us to use our free will to make the place better, and god won't step in and hold our hand every step of the way.

Now, your bridge example, what will you do to stop your friend? Stand in front of them? Yell at them? Tell them not to? What if they sneak out at night? Will you use your power to be there each time? Does it get to a point where you've done enough and it's really up to your friend to just trust you and not walk, or suffer the consequences?
And that's not exactly a "free will" choice with the bridge falling.
Try...your friend asks you to introduce her to a friend of yours. You know that the guy is a jerk, and will upset her. So you say that. She says "C'mon, we're best friends, introduce me to him". You have your omniscient powers of relationships. Isn't it still her choice? You've warned her. Do you have the right to stop her? (well, yes, if you're god). Do you want to? Maybe she needs to take your advice or not, and make her own choices using the free will you gave her.

ok, a few points. First of all, no offence, what you "like" has little to no bearing on the discussion. Other people like the idea. God most likely didn't predict what you'd like and take it into account with any large amount of weighting on his actions.

Yes, satan was part of god's plan, since, technically, *everything* is part of his plan. Satan *does* have free will "just like any other angel", however angels don't have free will. That's what sets humans apart from gods other creations (and technically animals don't have free will either. Justify that evolutionary christians!)
He could have stopped bad things happening (although see my previous post about how we're maybe overreacting about how bad the world really is). He may not have wanted to. Perhaps his plan includes what we want and will do with our free will, and it's not that god necessarily wanted that.

I *want* my children to think I'm great. That doesn't mean I'll give them subliminal messages while they sleep telling them how great their father is. God *wants* us to make the right choices with our free will, but leaves us to make the choices, right or wrong. Otherwise it's not really free will, is it?

Also, just because god knew something would happen doesn't mean they didn't make their own choices.
If someone phones me up and says "Hey, a mass murderer has escaped and has a bomb and a boatload of egyptian goats. And he hates goats. And wants to commit suicide" and I know, not just suspect but *know* with certainty that he's going to blow up those poor, innocent goats...does that make it my fault? No.

What if I could have stopped him, knowing he'd do that? Perhaps it does. But I can't stop him without restricting his free will (which is acceptable - free will doesn't mean the ability to do anything whenever we want. God limits our free will, e.g. with gravity). If I'm all powerful, maybe a better solution would be to let him blow up those goats, but take them straight to goat-heaven where they can frolic with the little white lambs. And maybe it'll result in goat-murderer number 2 seeing the upset that it causes, and reconsidering. Or in other ways make the world better. Or maybe not, and it's up to us to use our free will to make the place better, and god won't step in and hold our hand every step of the way.

Now, your bridge example, what will you do to stop your friend? Stand in front of them? Yell at them? Tell them not to? What if they sneak out at night? Will you use your power to be there each time? Does it get to a point where you've done enough and it's really up to your friend to just trust you and not walk, or suffer the consequences?
And that's not exactly a "free will" choice with the bridge falling.
Try...your friend asks you to introduce her to a friend of yours. You know that the guy is a jerk, and will upset her. So you say that. She says "C'mon, we're best friends, introduce me to him". You have your omniscient powers of relationships. Isn't it still her choice? You've warned her. Do you have the right to stop her? (well, yes, if you're god). Do you want to? Maybe she needs to take your advice or not, and make her own choices using the free will you gave her.

your the first that i know to say that angels do not have free will. Have you ever read apopcrypha? not only did satan rebell, but 1/3 of the angels. it looks like they have free will. Im not saying that they could not make thier own choices. Im saying that God knew thier choices, but chose to tempt them with the tree and fruit anyway. Thats what it was really, a temptation. What other purpose did that tree serve? none.

Keeping the bridge example; if im God and knew that that person would fall, i would not have made that bridge in the firstplace. If i knew that i would not make that bridge to attract that person to walk across it, that person would never had done so. But, your giving all this to be apart of Gods plan, which means Gods purpose for the tree was the same as the bridge. It was a trap basically.

nope, never read apopcrypha.
There are a few references in the bible to angels not having free will. There are references to god creating humans, and giving us free will as this big amazing hasn't-been-done-before thing.
And, really, 1/3 of the angels rebelling (yes, I did know that. Angels used to be something of an interest of mine) really isn't that amazing. If god can decide that one angel rebels, he can decide that all angels rebel. He's omnipitent. The number doesn't mean they have any more or less free will.
Besides, it doesn't matter if angels have free will or not, if we assume god set up satan to fall, and create the concepts of good and evil. He could just as easily have done that by really annoying satan every morning (who would know better what buttons to push than god?)

the apple, yes, it was a temptation. That was its purpose. It was there as a temptation.
God knew humans would take it.
That does NOT mean that god forced them to take it, any more than police setting up a drug deal force the dealers to buy or sell drugs.

And, with your friend, if you change reality so that she doesn't *want* to walk across the bridge, then you're not really giving her free will (at least in that aspect), are you?
If you change the bridge to stop it falling, sure, you're still giving her free will while protecting her. Maybe god is doing exactly that (how will she ever know if you stopped the bridge from falling? She might instead blame you when she stubs her toe while walking across).
Perhaps god created mathematics to allow us to build stable bridges. Perhaps god does just make us "not want to" walk across the dangerous bridge. People just do "not want to" jump off a cliff, unless they have a very good reason, what's to say that's not god's work?
Should god watch *everything* and make sure that *nothing* bad happens? Then we really don't have any free will, do we?
He can watch things and make sure that the truly terrible things won't happen. Maybe he does, we'd never notice, since we'd start thinking that the not-so-terrible things are truly terrible.
God, being infinitely fair, is playing by the rules.

Earths Orbit, its 1:30am here so I must leave now, good debate, I look foward to next time.

Take care.

For me, being Australia, this debate kept me interested while I spent the last few hours of the week in my office.

So glad it's the weeked!

nope, never read apopcrypha.
There are a few references in the bible to angels not having free will. There are references to god creating humans, and giving us free will as this big amazing hasn't-been-done-before thing.
And, really, 1/3 of the angels rebelling (yes, I did know that. Angels used to be something of an interest of mine) really isn't that amazing. If god can decide that one angel rebels, he can decide that all angels rebel. He's omnipitent. The number doesn't mean they have any more or less free will.
Besides, it doesn't matter if angels have free will or not, if we assume god set up satan to fall, and create the concepts of good and evil. He could just as easily have done that by really annoying satan every morning (who would know better what buttons to push than god?)

the apple, yes, it was a temptation. That was its purpose. It was there as a temptation.
God knew humans would take it.
That does NOT mean that god forced them to take it, any more than police setting up a drug deal force the dealers to buy or sell drugs.

And, with your friend, if you change reality so that she doesn't *want* to walk across the bridge, then you're not really giving her free will (at least in that aspect), are you?
If you change the bridge to stop it falling, sure, you're still giving her free will while protecting her. Maybe god is doing exactly that (how will she ever know if you stopped the bridge from falling? She might instead blame you when she stubs her toe while walking across).
Perhaps god created mathematics to allow us to build stable bridges. Perhaps god does just make us "not want to" walk across the dangerous bridge. People just do "not want to" jump off a cliff, unless they have a very good reason, what's to say that's not god's work?
Should god watch *everything* and make sure that *nothing* bad happens? Then we really don't have any free will, do we?
He can watch things and make sure that the truly terrible things won't happen. Maybe he does, we'd never notice, since we'd start thinking that the not-so-terrible things are truly terrible.
God, being infinitely fair, is playing by the rules.

Could you give some verses that show angels dont have free will? If he decides that satan and the angels are to rebell, that would be an act against their free will,(if they have any).

You say that the tree was temptation, but that God didnt force them to sin. But it looks like there was not other alternative. The circumstance and situation that God created and put them in did not give them a way out. The choices were to obey or disobey. If God set up the tree, he did it on purpose because he knew they would make that decision to disobey. So the fall was Gods engineering then?

Back to the bridge, I wouldnt change the reality. I would not have originally made a reality to where the bridge would have fallen. If God did not want us to rebell and sin, causing the entire world to be cursed, he would have not have given us the opportunity. If he didnt want it, he could have never made the tree.

There is a difference between watching out to protect creation from harm, and cursing it for making the wrong choice.

You say that the tree was temptation, but that God didnt force them to sin. But it looks like there was not other alternative. The circumstance and situation that God created and put them in did not give them a way out. The choices were to obey or disobey. If God set up the tree, he did it on purpose because he knew they would make that decision to disobey. So the fall was Gods engineering then?

Back to the bridge, I wouldnt change the reality. I would not have originally made a reality to where the bridge would have fallen. If God did not want us to rebell and sin, causing the entire world to be cursed, he would have not have given us the opportunity. If he didnt want it, he could have never made the tree.

There is a difference between watching out to protect creation from harm, and cursing it for making the wrong choice.

Sorry, I can't give you any quotes. That's not how my memory works, and I'm not devout enough to have any religious texts with me here at work :)

ok, god didn't force them to sin. That's the whole "free will" argument.
You say "there was no other option", but really, there was. This is a whole other big complicated topic in its own right, I'll send you an essay on it if you're interested.
The short answer is that we're assuming that humans *do* have free will, for this argument. If they *do* have free will, then there was another alternative that they chose not to take. Yes, god set it up, but they still made their own choice. Like the police setting up a drug drop, the criminals are still choosing to be there, the police aren't removing the criminals free will. They're just providing the opportunity for the criminals to choose or choose not to deal the drugs.
God gave them a choice. He gave them the choice to obey or disobey. That was their choice.
If you say "but god knew they would choose to disobey so they don't have a choice" then, in a world where God knows everything, your argument tells me that free will never exists.
God isn't giving us much chance to use our free will if he doesn't give us the ability to choose wrong. If we could only make good choices, what's the use of having free will? I get to choose if I should wear my red or blue shirt today? Go free will!
I much prefer to use my free will to choose not to go on a killing rampage. I choose not to go on a killing rampage every single day. All that horror I could cause, and I *choose* not to do it. I ensure that the world is a better place by choosing the right thing as often as I can. If I didn't have those choices, and could only choose the color of my shirt, or other things without moral consequences, then I can't make the world better through my actions and choices.
Even if god knows whether I'll make the right choice or not, it's still me choosing to do the right thing, or choosing to do the wrong thing. God just sets up the opportunities. Like he did for Adam and Eve.

OK, so you'd design all bridges in your original world to never fall. And all trees to never crush someone. And...what about death? Would people ever die? Will they ever get old? will everyone be strong and healthy? Will there not be children? Will people choose when it's time to die, and pass painlessly into the next life (if one exists)? You need to draw the line at some point.

Imagine, just for a moment, that instead of the bridge falling...imagine that our world is all volcanic. So if you're walking down the street a crevice could open beneath you and you could burn in firey agony. Pretty horrible. We might be having this exact discussion, but you'd be saying "If I knew she was going to be sucked into a volcanic fissure and die in screaming agony...well, I'd just make the world not have those. The ground would always be solid." That's what we'd be saying, isn't it? We'd never even consider bridges falling.
So who's to say that God didn't think that and go, in my caring for humans, I'll make sure that, mostly, the ground doesn't erupt into lava.
But then the humans complain "this acid rain is horrible, if I knew someone was going to get rained on with acid...I'd change the world so it doesn't happen" and god, in his infinite wisdom, provided us a world without burning acid dropping from the sky.
Many many worse ways the world could be screwed up, but if someone really was looking out for us, we'd never know. If you set up your world so the bridges would just never break, your friend would never know, and would spend her whole life taking for granted the fact that bridges don't break.
And you'd be saying to me "If I knew my friend was going to fall down the stairs and break her leg, I'd make it so nobody ever falls".

And, eventually, we'd end up in a world where I can't ever do anything wrong, and my free will is meaningless. Plus people will probably find *something* to complain about.

There's a better solution. Let bad things happen, to an extent. Get rid of the truly awful things, like constant volcanoes, or highly toxic smoke. Let relatively small bad things, like the occasional bridge falling still happen. And, when people die from these things, take them to heaven and reward them. Repay them for anything bad that happened. Reward them for doing good things.
And, here's a pretty cool thing, give us humans the ability to make the world better. Give us the ability to create mathematical equations that describe bridge strength. Give us the ability to maintain the bridges. Give us people smart enough to build better bridges next time. And let us create this world where no bridges fall, if we choose to. Let this wonderful world where bridges never fall be *our* creation, rather than just letting us take it for granted because "that's the way things are". Let me personally make the world a better place, it gives my life meaning.

why are there so many threads containing God or an intellegent creator?