NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:

Well the Bible also said that men could have like 8 wives back in the day, and thats just not so anymore. If so, I'd have been Mrs Jude Law #2 damnit.

Jesus said that the laws of the Jews were not needed in accepting God. As long as you followed Jesus' teachings and accept him, you are saved.

So yes, pork galore! Too bad I can't remember the chapter and verse, but it's somewhere in Matthew.

Jesus said that the laws of the Jews were not needed in accepting God. As long as you followed Jesus' teachings and accept him, you are saved.

So yes, pork galore! Too bad I can't remember the chapter and verse, but it's somewhere in Matthew.
That's why we (Jews) don't believe in Jesus. A man cannot undo laws given by G-d.

Get Grave n idle in here.....I'm sure he can give you the low down. He's brilliant on so many subjects...religion being one of the top ones.

Jesus said that the laws of the Jews were not needed in accepting God. As long as you followed Jesus' teachings and accept him, you are saved.

So yes, pork galore! Too bad I can't remember the chapter and verse, but it's somewhere in Matthew.
im not questiong this in anyway....but i would love somebody to come up with the chapter and verse

its just that ive heard it said so often, and nobody has ever provided a quote

Although not a Christian per se, I do study the Bible for discussion purposes. This will be paraphrased since I cannot consult a Bible at the moment. However, the gist of the argument mentioned in Paul is that the Law mentiond in the Old Testament is not required of Christians, only the Jews because it was given to them specifically as God's chosen.

Give me a while, and I'll see if I can find it.

That's why we (Jews) don't believe in Jesus. A man cannot undo laws given by G-d.
Actually, Jesus said that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill prophecy. It was later that Jesus followers changed to law to make it easier for gentiles to accept the new religion without the burden of Jewish law.

That's why we (Jews) don't believe in Jesus. A man cannot undo laws given by God.

At least say his name. :P

Technically, Christians are not supposed to eat pork and should follow the kashrut laws laid out in Leviticus ch. 11. Jesus said, "I am not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17-20)

Well ... guess what? Every Jew is the same way. We don't "follow" the law, we "fulfill" the law. When I gave my son a brit milah on his eighth day, I was not following the law of the brit milah, but rather I was fulfilling the mitzvot to have my son circumsized and present him to the community as a Jewish boy. When I decline a sandwich with bacon in it, I am not following kashrut law ... I am fulfilling it.

Just because a law is fulfilled doesn't mean it ends. Kashrut law is as in effect today as it was when it was handed to Moses.

So, and I know you asked for Christians and I'm not one but I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, Christians should not be eating pork.

Whose up for a rack of pork ribs?

At least say his name. :P

The name is Allah, not God. God is a title, not a name. :p

Here:

"23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

From Galatians 3

Since this falls under the Law, which has by definition been fulfilled by Jesus, Christians are no longer required to follow it.

The name is Allah, not God. God is a title, not a name. :p

Well then they should say his title! :P

Whose up for a rack of pork ribs?

I just had some for dinner, actually. Heh.

Here:

"23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

From Galatians 3

Since this falls under the Law, which has by definition been fulfilled by Jesus, Christians are no longer required to follow it.
so Jesus didnt really say it, his followers just did because they fancied pork chops for dinner?

so Jesus didnt really say it, his followers just did because they fancied pork chops for dinner?

Well, you have to admit. Pork chops are delicious.

I just had some for dinner, actually. Heh.

Just went to Damons a few hours ago, saw this, and decided to post. Good old full rack with barbeque sauce... the best since the Montgomery Inn down in Cincinnati.

/laughs

I'm an agnostic (http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm).

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:

Adventists believe christians are still bound by the old laws. All other major denominations believe that with Jesus' attonement for our sins we are no longer bound by the old laws.

so Jesus didnt really say it, his followers just did because they fancied pork chops for dinner?

Well, you have to admit. Pork chops are delicious.

I just had some for dinner, actually. Heh.

Just went to Damons a few hours ago, saw this, and decided to post. Good old full rack with barbeque sauce... the best since the Montgomery Inn down in Cincinnati.

Actually, Jesus said that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill prophecy. It was later that Jesus followers changed to law to make it easier for gentiles to accept the new religion without the burden of Jewish law.

His followers did no such thing.

The Jewish Law was written for the Jew's, and Jesus did not change any of that. But neither did he extend that Law to the Gentiles...

Regards,
Gaar

so Jesus didnt really say it, his followers just did because they fancied pork chops for dinner?

Pork chops are delicious, I must agree.

Still though, the major problem is that Jesus actually outlined very little theology, if the gospels are to be used as a reference. Most of it was developed later in the writings of the apostles Paul and Peter, so any questions would have to be answered by these sources, since Jesus never outlined a specfic theology in regard to the Law.

Here:

"23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

From Galatians 3

Since this falls under the Law, which has by definition been fulfilled by Jesus, Christians are no longer required to follow it.

Funny, but I don't recall Jesus' words being in Galatians. Quoting Paul isn't as potent as quoting Jesus. By the first sentence in your quote, Paul is proven a liar.

Torah (the law) doesn't imprison us, Torah sets us free. A good modern example is the 1st Amendment. If that "Freedom of Speech" thing were not law, you would be imprisoned by its lack. It's a law that sets you free.

everyone so if christians don't have to follow the old laws....what about the 10 commandments? coz god made them not Christ.

Thanks guy. Just curious whether or not to throw out that bacon lol. Errr tough crowd.....

EDIT: wow before i had time to port alot-o people posted. ingore above^

Yes, they can.

Acts: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.



Sure ... if Allah gives it to them and tells them to and says it is clean, then they can. How often does this happen, though? Buying it from the grocers doesn't count.

Thanks guy. Just curious whether or not to throw out that bacon lol. Errr tough crowd.....


Throw it out. You don't really need it.

everyone so if christians don't have to follow the old laws....what about the 10 commandments? coz god made them not Christ.

God listed 10 Commandments as Absolutes, why do you think he made this list and didn't include all other Jewish Law?

Regards,
Gaar

Funny, but I don't recall Jesus' words being in Galatians. Quoting Paul isn't as potent as quoting Jesus. By the first sentence in your quote, Paul is proven a liar.

This is ture. however, a large amount of theology is drawn from the writings of Paul, so I had to use him as a reference.

Paul's writings are, in my opinion, laced with subtle anti-semitism, so any description he gives of the Law is undoubtedly affected by this. I would not say he is a liar so much as he was affected by this. This attitude is strange, given that he came from a family which was much attached to Pharisaic traditions and observances.

Cuase it was his day off and he was lazy.

The law of Moses and such things stated in Leviticus are no longer relevant to today's generation and havn't been for quite some time. I am a believer in Christ as well, and I asked one of my church leaders and they said that that prophesy had been fullfilled already. For a while pork was considered unclean because of what was fed to it, that because they were given waste the meat therein was waste, therefore unhealthy to consume. I believe there is a verse in Acts or somewhere in the New Testament that Peter saw a vision and Christ has a cloth with all kinds of animals and he was told thrice to partake of and eat, but Peter denied him twice and said it is unclean I cannot eat it, but Christ said all that I hath made is clean, so Peter ate. I can't seem to find the exact spot.

Dont waste the bacon give it to a homeless person or something geeze. :p

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:
"Everything is permissible ( allowable and lawful ) for me, but not all things are helpful ( good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things ). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power." I Corinthians 6:12

"Everything God has created is good, and nothing is to be thrown away or refused if it is received with thanksgiving. For it is hallowed and consecrated by the Word of God and by prayer." I Timothy 4:4-5

"It has been resolved by us in assembly ... not to lay upon you any greater burden than these indespendable requirements [ for those wishing to know the requirements for being a Christian ]: That you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from [ tasting ] blood and from [eating the meat of animals ] that have been strangled and from sexual impurity. If you keep yourselves from these things you will do well." Acts 18:25-29 [ edited for clarity and brevity ]

God listed 10 Commandments as Absolutes, why do you think he made this list and didn't include all other Jewish Law?

Regards,
Gaar

so those Commandements a above all others...right?

When I see a thread like this, I thank god I'm an athiest... ;)

The law of Moses and such things stated in Leviticus are no longer relevant to today's generation and havn't been for quite some time. I am a believer in Christ as well, and I asked one of my church leaders and they said that that prophesy had been fullfilled already.

Don't ask ... read.

There is no prophesy about the end of kashrut law.

since nobody saw it, I repost my earlier post and delete the earlier one.


Yes, they can.

Mark 7

1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:

15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.



Acts 10
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

why would "god" allah, whoever your favorite deity is, have created pigs if not for consumption, they don't really do much of a service to the environment

When I see a thread like this, I thank god I'm an athiest...

I'm an agnostic, but I love discussing theology, because it is so interesting. :)

Christians are not under the Old Law but under the New Covenant which commands that you love God and love your neighbor (that in itself takes care of the 10 commandments)......eating pork is not a sin unless it leads another to sin (see below)

Romans 14:13-15
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up
your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[a] is
unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it
is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are
no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.

I'm an agnostic, but I love discussing theology, because it is so interesting. :)
Careful! You might learn something! :eek:

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:

I apologize if this is a repeat, but I haven't got time to read through all three pages.

Peter's vision at Joppa (Acts 10:1-23 [Or there abouts]). The apostle Peter saw a sheet/blanket descend from the clouds and in it were all sorts of animals that were, scripturally, unclean (pigs, shirp, various unclean birds, etc). This passage emphasises the fact that the need to be clean by preparing things, not coming into contact with certain things/people/foods isn't required in order to follow Jesus Christ.

Although, some may take this passage to mean that all laws from the Old Testament are thrown away (i.e., Christian Gays). I haven't ventured into that area of belief, but... It is something to consider.

since nobody saw it, I repost my earlier post and delete the earlier one.


Yes, they can.

I saw it and replied.

When I see a thread like this, I thank god I'm an athiest... ;)
haha yeah me to, but im a vegan and i just promoted eating pork, so for the sake of discussion why don't you pick up a bible

Christians are not under the Old Law but under the New Covenant which commands that you love God and love your neighbor (that in itself takes care of the 10 commandments)......eating pork is not a sin unless it leads another to sin (see below)

Romans 14:13-15
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up
your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.
14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[a] is
unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it
is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are
no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.
Good reference. I forgot about this one when I posted above. :)

why would "god" allah, whoever your favorite deity is, have created pigs if not for consumption, they don't really do much of a service to the environment

Neither do we ... but here we are.

I see that still nobody has been able to quote Jesus saying it's ok to eat pork. I only see Paul being quoted.

Bunch of Paulists, eh? Well ... suit yourself.

Neither do we ... but here we are.
aren't we supposed to be the pinnacle of His/Her/ I Am's creation, the reason everything else was created?

Bunch of Paulists, eh? Well ... suit yourself.

Not me. I don't particularly like Paul, but he's the only source of a large amount of theological arguments.

aren't we supposed to be the pinnacle of His/Her/ I Am's creation, the reason everything else was created?

Nah ... if that were the case, we'd have been around first. We were put here, in the words of Genesis, as "caretakers" - some mistakenly translate this to "dominion".

I'd say that means the animals and such are more important because Allah placed the smartest, most industrious of creation as caretakers for the rest. The Earth, itself, not so much, as it had a falling out with Allah as well. In Genesis 4, Allah curses the Earth for drinking Abel's blood just as Allah cursed Cain for spilling it.

so those Commandements a above all others...right?

They are the ones that will remain through all time, that's why we call them "Absolutes".

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:

I know 2 Jews and 1 Muslim that eat pork. ;)

I know 2 Jews and 1 Muslim that eat pork. ;)


I didn't know that Christians were not supposed to eat pork. Oh my, I have been eating it...forever. Also, I know a Jewish family who eats pork, too.

Ok, first, someone earlier said that Paul seemed a little anti-semetic, which is ludicrus because, guess what, Paul was Jewish! He was originally named Saul of Tarsus and actually persecuted the early Jews who believed in Jesus until God met him on the way to Damascus and recruited him. You can read the whole thing in Acts 9. So 1) Paul was a Jew, and not anti-semetic. 2) Paul's credibility comes from God, since God himself called him: "But the Lord said to him, 'Go, for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel." (Acts 9: 15)

Second post will tackle the kosher issue.

I didn't know that Christians were not supposed to eat pork. Oh my, I have been eating it...forever. Also, I know a Jewish family who eats pork, too.

If you think about it and consider the era, what better way to get people to stop eating a dirty meat?

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:

VINCENT
You want some bacon?

JULES
No, man, I don't eat pork.

VINCENT
Are you Jewish ?

JULES
No, I ain't Jewish, i just don't dig on swine, that's all.

VINCENT
Why not?

JULES
Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals.

VINCENT
But bacon tastes good, pork chops taste good...

JULES
Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, But I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfuckers. Pigs sleep and root in shit, that's a filthy animal. I don't eat nothin' that ain't got sense enough to disregard its own feces.

VINCENT
How about a dog? A dog eats its own feces

JULES
I don't eat dog either

VINCENT
Yeah, but do you consider a dog to be a filthy animal?

JULES
I wouldn't go so far as to call a dog filthy, but it's definately dirty. But, dogs got personality, personality goes a long way.

VINCENT
So by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?

JULES
We' have to be talkin' 'bout one charmin' motherfuckin' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

At least say his name. :P

Jehovah.

I just don't eat pork because it drains my energy, gives me really nasty stomach aches and dysentry almost everytime. It kind of feels like appendicitus. I think it tastes good and all, but the after effects really mess me up. It's like one of my kryptonites. I still eat pork at birthday parties or family reunions, but I pay for it.

JULES
Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, But I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfuckers.

One of the best lines in that film. :D

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:

Sure why not? Unless your a Jew. Notice there is difference in covenants.. Especially the old and the new covenant, or in the new testament it's known as the covenant as law and grace, or flesh and spirit.

Old vs New
Law vs Grace
Flesh vs Spirit (People think Flesh, usually means sexual immorality, actually thats incorrect, Flesh means using your own works)

And Jesus did fulfill the laws, which no one can btw. He fulfilled it. But what Jesus calls is not for us to fulfil it because it's impossible, but rather to put our trust in him.

------------------------
Read Romans and if you'll use my terms, Romans would make perfect sense. About the 'you are no more judged by the laws but by grace through faith'.

The old covenant. You are judged by your flesh, your own works, righteousness. And by the law, whether it makes sense or not.

The new covenant, you are judged by the blood of Jesus. Living in the spirit, not the flesh.

This is ture. however, a large amount of theology is drawn from the writings of Paul, so I had to use him as a reference.

Paul's writings are, in my opinion, laced with subtle anti-semitism, so any description he gives of the Law is undoubtedly affected by this. I would not say he is a liar so much as he was affected by this. This attitude is strange, given that he came from a family which was much attached to Pharisaic traditions and observances.

He was a one of the highest pharisee's If I;m correct. SO much so that at his point of his finger, he could condemn a man for heresy. A man devotes himself to the absoluteness and totality of the Judaic law.

I don't think he's anti-semitism, he is a jew. But he is against trusting in the law to redeem yourself.

But he gave up on the law.. Or rather stop depending on the law as your means of getting accepted by God. Simply because to reach the level of God's acceptence is absolute perfection, which no one but Jesus could do.

Hence, lots of Romans, Galatians, Corinthians. He's preaching is alot about Law vs. Grace. There is no hope in doing good works to reach to heaven. Thats the reason Jesus came, to die for our sins.

That when you accept him as your Lord and saviour and depend on him for your righteousness. You get to reach God.

And Jesus did fulfill the laws, which no one can btw. He fulfilled it. But what Jesus calls is not for us to fulfil it because it's impossible, but rather to put our trust in him.


I fulfill laws every day. Just today I fulfilled the mitzvot to wear fringes on the corners of my clothing by donning tzitzit. One dead Jew does not have a lock on fulfilling laws. All Jews are commanded to fulfill Torah and we do what we can.

Fulfilling a law does not render the law void.

I fulfill laws every day. Just today I fulfilled the mitzvot to wear fringes on the corners of my clothing by donning tzitzit. One dead Jew does not have a lock on fulfilling laws. All Jews are commanded to fulfill Torah and we do what we can.

Fulfilling a law does not render the law void.
I thought you were Muslim. :confused:

Fulfilling a law does not render the law void.

Yup it does not. But the laws are too perfect. It's impossible to accomplish.

Romans 6:1 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died in sin live any longer in it?

Go down abit

:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lust
:13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
:14 For sin shall no longer have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace
:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Then it later talks about being a slave in righteousness. (Which I'll explain it first before going into it).

Slave in Sin - Everybody is a sinner, but sinful people can do good works. Righteous things. But no matter how much good things you do, you still have to pay for the sins you have commited, because God is perfection. It's not an equal balance of 1 sin = 1 good that you must do more good than bad.

Slave in Righteousness - You are forgiven of all your sins, but you can still do bad. But no matter how much bad you do you are still forgiven. Why don't you continue living in sin and debauchary all your life since your forgiven? (Entrusca Answered that.. Everything is acceptable, not everything is beneficial). At the end of your life, what do you accomplish? Will you really live a happy life?

Plus once you realise that your forgiven, you would learn to love than condemn.

I find some of the harshest 'so called' Christians, like Fred Phelps, their still lost in the old testament. They preach the law so hard on people, because they still sincerely believe they are judged by the law, the law is too perfect, and because of their imperfections, they take it out on people (Holier than thou attitudes). You must do this, you musn't do that. When they forgotten that Jesus came for forgiveness, not condemnation. Hence these people are akin to the Pharisee's of the old.

Hence I believe, that those that live in the knowledge of forgiveness, like me. I don't condemn people of any kind. (Like Jesus said), A doctor helps the sick not the well. Those who are happily living in their sinful ways.. It's your decision. Me condemning them for being sinners doesn't help the situation better. But if their searching for a way out for sin, I'm all ears to help. Jesus best friends were some of the most disgusted people of society, the tax collecter, the prostitutes. The unforgiven. :D

:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I thought you were Muslim. :confused:

Probably last time I guess :)

HAHAHAHA!
I laugh at you delusional fools.

Everyday after Hebrew School I had a big juicy bacon cheeseburger, just to snub those dumbasses.


Biblical literalism is soooo Dark Ages. Unless you're willing to be sexist, homophobic, racist, mysoginistic, and down right crude, you aren't capable of Biblical literalism.

And don't any of you imbeciles think Yahweh is capable of using parables?

Or maybe, as a decendent of the High Priests of Judea I should come clean: It was written by humans as a way to make sure the common people acted properly.

Or maybe, as a decendent of the High Priests of Judea I should come clean: It was written by humans as a way to make sure the common people acted properly.

If it's true, then alot of them are very strange rituals. No pork, and only scaley fish? And cutting the end of the penis?

...Just today I fulfilled the mitzvot to wear fringes on the corners of my clothing by donning tzitzit...

Once, when I was here (http://www.navajonationparks.org/fourcorners_monument.htm), I dropped peyote and donned tzitzit. It was far out, dude.

Technically, Christians are not supposed to eat pork and should follow the kashrut laws laid out in Leviticus ch. 11. Jesus said, "I am not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17-20)

Well ... guess what? Every Jew is the same way. We don't "follow" the law, we "fulfill" the law. When I gave my son a brit milah on his eighth day, I was not following the law of the brit milah, but rather I was fulfilling the mitzvot to have my son circumsized and present him to the community as a Jewish boy. When I decline a sandwich with bacon in it, I am not following kashrut law ... I am fulfilling it.

Just because a law is fulfilled doesn't mean it ends. Kashrut law is as in effect today as it was when it was handed to Moses.

So, and I know you asked for Christians and I'm not one but I'm pretty good at this sort of thing, Christians should not be eating pork.
actualy, kashrut only applies to jews, so gentiles can eat whatever they want.

I thought you were Muslim. :confused:

I am ... by religion. My mother is Jewish and I am also a Jew. Ya don't stop being a Jew when you become Muslim. :)

Everyday after Hebrew School I had a big juicy bacon cheeseburger, just to snub those dumbasses.

Congratulations. So what?

And don't any of you imbeciles think Yahweh is capable of using parables?

"Hey, buddy, don't eat pig. It's nasty." Is not a parable. It's pretty clear.

Or maybe, as a decendent of the High Priests of Judea I should come clean

Pork eating kohanim, eh? Interesting.

If it's true, then alot of them are very strange rituals. No pork, and only scaley fish? And cutting the end of the penis?

GAH! Not the end ... just a useless flap of skin. :D You make it sound like we sever the head of the penis. :p *shudder*

HAHAHAHA!
I laugh at you delusional fools.

Everyday after Hebrew School I had a big juicy bacon cheeseburger, just to snub those dumbasses.


Biblical literalism is soooo Dark Ages. Unless you're willing to be sexist, homophobic, racist, mysoginistic, and down right crude, you aren't capable of Biblical literalism.

And don't any of you imbeciles think Yahweh is capable of using parables?

Or maybe, as a decendent of the High Priests of Judea I should come clean: It was written by humans as a way to make sure the common people acted properly.
there is nothing in the Torah about racism
However I believe that every word of the Torah is true.

I am ... by religion. My mother is Jewish and I am also a Jew. Ya don't stop being a Jew when you become Muslim. :)
errr.... what?

And btw, how is Torah mysogynistic? Where does it say that women are bad and must be killed? Hell, one of the most famous people mentioned in the torah, are Sarah, Rivkah, Leia, and the other one.

actualy, kashrut only applies to jews, so gentiles can eat whatever they want.

The HaSheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach are mentioned in Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4 and Talmud Sanhedrin 56a/b, not in Torah. Tosefta and Talmud are not to be held in the same light or on the same level as Torah.

It's the same beef I have with Christians who hold Paul's word over Jesus' and the same beef I have with Muslims who hold Hadith over Qur'an.

If I'm asked to choose between Man's law and Allah's law, I will choose Allah.

Talmud < Torah.

Show me in Torah where gentiles are absolved from Kashrut and we'll talk.

The whole reason pork was banned in the first place was that they thought it was poisonous. They didn't know about trichinosis, which is an infection caused by parasites in un-cooked meat (usually pigs). So Jews these days still don't eat pork because some people a long time ago were ignorant. Sheesh..

errr.... what?

Ya don't stop being a Jew when you become Muslim.

Muslims still follow Torah for the most part. Qur'an doesn't invalidate Torah, nor does it contradict Torah. Allah is Abraham's Elaw. Same deity.

However, that's religion. I can no more stop being Jewish than I could stop being American Indian. Jewish is my cultural identity.

The HaSheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach are mentioned in Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4 and Talmud Sanhedrin 56a/b, not in Torah. Tosefta and Talmud are not to be held in the same light or on the same level as Torah.

It's the same beef I have with Christians who hold Paul's word over Jesus' and the same beef I have with Muslims who hold Hadith over Qur'an.

If I'm asked to choose between Man's law and Allah's law, I will choose Allah.

Talmud < Torah.

Show me in Torah where gentiles are absolved from Kashrut and we'll talk.
I forgot where, but i think it goes along the lines that G-d gave torah to Moses's people (Jews), not to other nations. But I do agree with you that Torah>Talmud

Ya don't stop being a Jew when you become Muslim.

Muslims still follow Torah for the most part. Qur'an doesn't invalidate Torah, nor does it contradict Torah. Allah is Abraham's Elaw. Same deity.

However, that's religion. I can no more stop being Jewish than I could stop being American Indian. Jewish is my cultural identity.
Wait, so you are Native American, Jewish AND muslim??

Me=confused

The whole reason pork was banned in the first place was that they thought it was poisonous. They didn't know about trichinosis, which is an infection caused by parasites in un-cooked meat (usually pigs). So Jews these days still don't eat pork because some people a long time ago were ignorant. Sheesh..

Actually, trichinosis only occurs in animals infected with the larvae of a species of worm called Trichinella. You can eat bear, pork, wild feline (such as a cougar), fox, dog, wolf, horse, seal, or walrus, and still be at risk for trichinosis.

Domestic pigs kept in clean conditions you could eat raw, right off the living animal, and would probably never get infected. The hot desert climate is not conducive to trichinosis, hence, it is highly unlikely they were being poisoned by pig flesh back in the deserts of Judea.

Feel free to check the fact sheets at the CDC website if you're so inclined.

Wait, so you are Native American, Jewish AND muslim??

Me=confused

Muslim is a religion ... it's not something you're born with or whatnot.

I chose Islam.

By blood, I am Sephardic Jew, Nakohodotsi Caddo (native american tribe), Irish, and Cajun. Four grandparents with very different bloodlines. Happens all the time.

Actually, trichinosis only occurs in animals infected with the larvae of a species of worm called Trichinella. You can eat bear, pork, wild feline (such as a cougar), fox, dog, wolf, horse, seal, or walrus, and still be at risk for trichinosis.

Domestic pigs kept in clean conditions you could eat raw, right off the living animal, and would probably never get infected. The hot desert climate is not conducive to trichinosis, hence, it is highly unlikely they were being poisoned by pig flesh back in the deserts of Judea.

Feel free to check the fact sheets at the CDC website if you're so inclined.

You may have a good point there. However, on the website it says:

Trichinellosis, also called trichinosis, is caused by eating raw or undercooked meat of animals infected with the larvae of a species of worm called Trichinella. Infection occurs commonly in certain wild carnivorous (meat-eating) animals but may also occur in domestic pigs.

Chances are, meat back then was probably undercooked, due to the fact that they didn't know about Trichinosis. I just don't see any reason why people shouldn't eat pork these days. There was a reason once, but not any more.

I forgot where, but i think it goes along the lines that G-d gave torah to Moses's people (Jews), not to other nations. But I do agree with you that Torah>Talmud

Moses's people were also tasked with spreading Torah to the world.

Chances are, meat back then was probably undercooked, due to the fact that they didn't know about Trichinosis. I just don't see any reason why people shouldn't eat pork these days. There was a reason once, but not any more.

Nah ... nomadic people tend to overcook and completely salt meat so that it will keep. Salt kills trichinosis (and most bacteria for that matter).

However, the question at hand is a religious one. Should people not eat pork? If they want to, more power to them. Bacon is tastey. However, religiously, anyone who accepts Torah as the Divine Will of the Almighty(tm) should not eat pork.

Nah ... nomadic people tend to overcook and completely salt meat so that it will keep. Salt kills trichinosis (and most bacteria for that matter).

However, the question at hand is a religious one. Should people not eat pork? If they want to, more power to them. Bacon is tastey. However, religiously, anyone who accepts Torah as the Divine Will of the Almighty(tm) should not eat pork.

Ok, I'll concede to you and go to sleep now..

Being Jewish, I only ate pork when I was less than 4. I wish I knew how it tasted ....

Then again, Catholics have it worse than us. No sex at all...

I apologize if this is a repeat, but I haven't got time to read through all three pages.

Peter's vision at Joppa (Acts 10:1-23 [Or there abouts]). The apostle Peter saw a sheet/blanket descend from the clouds and in it were all sorts of animals that were, scripturally, unclean (pigs, shirp, various unclean birds, etc). This passage emphasises the fact that the need to be clean by preparing things, not coming into contact with certain things/people/foods isn't required in order to follow Jesus Christ.

Although, some may take this passage to mean that all laws from the Old Testament are thrown away (i.e., Christian Gays). I haven't ventured into that area of belief, but... It is something to consider.

I'm surprised how few people actually quoted this passage.

Actually, it's Acts 11:1-10. God directly tells Peter to get up, kill, and eat the unclean animals. It's significant that this is in the New Testament, because this is after Christ came down and fulfilled the ultimate sacrifice, fulfilling the laws of the old testament. This is why we no longer need to sacrifice animals in a temple. In the old testament, they killed sheep as sacrifice, but these sacrifices would never be perfect enough, because they were of this world. Christ was the perfect sacrifice because he was without sin or imperfection in any way. If you'll also remember, Christ died just before passover, at the same time the high priests were doing their passover sacrifice. Anyway, we no longer need to follow the strict rules, such as not eating pork, of the old testament because Christ came and nullified them by dying on the cross.

God directly tells Peter to get up, kill, and eat the unclean animals.

Yes. Peter was told to. Peter. Not you. If you have a Divine vision and the Almighty gives you ham sandwich and says it's ok, then it's ok. Otherwise, it's not ok.

This is why we no longer need to sacrifice animals in a temple.

Actually, we no longer sacrifice animals in the Temple because the Temple is no longer there. It has nothing to do with Jesus.

In the old testament, they killed sheep as sacrifice, but these sacrifices would never be perfect enough, because they were of this world. Christ was the perfect sacrifice because he was without sin or imperfection in any way.

Since when do sheep sin?

Anyway, we no longer need to follow the strict rules, such as not eating pork, of the old testament because Christ came and nullified them by dying on the cross.

Show me, by Jesus's words, Jesus nullifying Kashrut law. Don't quote Paul and don't quote Peter's vision. I want Jesus's words, the man himself, not a bad copy. Also keep in mind that "fulfill" doesn't mean "nullify".

I'm surprised how few people actually quoted this passage.

Actually, it's Acts 11:1-10. God directly tells Peter to get up, kill, and eat the unclean animals. It's significant that this is in the New Testament, because this is after Christ came down and fulfilled the ultimate sacrifice, fulfilling the laws of the old testament. This is why we no longer need to sacrifice animals in a temple. In the old testament, they killed sheep as sacrifice, but these sacrifices would never be perfect enough, because they were of this world. Christ was the perfect sacrifice because he was without sin or imperfection in any way. If you'll also remember, Christ died just before passover, at the same time the high priests were doing their passover sacrifice. Anyway, we no longer need to follow the strict rules, such as not eating pork, of the old testament because Christ came and nullified them by dying on the cross.
Jesus was just a shill for Big Pork.

Wait, so you are Native American, Jewish AND muslim??

Me=confused
I knew there was peyote involved.

I just don't eat pork because it drains my energy, gives me really nasty stomach aches and dysentry almost everytime. It kind of feels like appendicitus. I think it tastes good and all, but the after effects really mess me up. It's like one of my kryptonites. I still eat pork at birthday parties or family reunions, but I pay for it.
You need to purify the pork as clearly explained in the New Testament:

"Now when every swine's turn was come to go in to king Ahasuerus, after that ham had been smoked twelve hours, according to the manner of the women, (for so were the days of their purifications accomplished, to wit, six hours with oil of myrrh, and six hours with mesquite odours, and with other things for the purifying of the pork. Then thus came every maiden unto the king; whatsoever barbecue she desired was given her to go with her out of the house of the women unto the king's house."

I'm not quite sure of the precise definition of Kashrut. But here is a quote:

" 'Hear me, all of you, and understand. Nothing that enters one from outside can defile that person; but the things that come out from within are what defile. ... Do you not realize that everything that goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters not the heart but the stomach and passes out into the latrine?'

"(Thus he declared all foods clean.)"

(The Gospel according to Mark, chapter 7, verses 15, 18b - 19)

Matt

I should note that the parenthesized comment is a clarification on the part of the final author of the document; on the other hand, it seems to me a pretty obvious conclusion from the words of Jesus here.

Stupid christians :sniper:

(The Gospel according to Mark, chapter 7, verses 15, 18b - 19)


He states quite clearly that this is a parable, not to be taken literally.

Mark 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. 18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also?

They didn't get it, so he explained it to them:

Mark 7:21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

He's talking about sin, not food.

but didn't G-d say that we are allowed to eat any animal that walks, and eat any plant that grows? I know I've read that before.

but didn't G-d say that we are allowed to eat any animal that walks, and eat any plant that grows? I know I've read that before.

That was pre-Torah, pre-Sinai, pre-Moses. That was in the Garden, before the fall.

That was pre-Torah, pre-Sinai, pre-Moses. That was in the Garden, before the fall.

it was also after the flood. ;)

it was also after the flood. ;)

True ... rules were different after the flood, of course. Allah is dynamic and changing, updating things as needed when the time is right. After 400 years of slavery in Egypt, Torah was finally ready to be given in its entirety to mankind. The descendents of Israel were chosen to receive it after some hullabaloo with Pharoah.

The Kashrut laws were part of that and that hasn't been changed ... well ... not by Allah, anyway, but by plenty of humans.

True ... rules were different after the flood, of course. Allah is dynamic and changing, updating things as needed when the time is right. After 400 years of slavery in Egypt, Torah was finally ready to be given in its entirety to mankind. The descendents of Israel were chosen to receive it after some hullabaloo with Pharoah.

The Kashrut laws were part of that and that hasn't been changed ... well ... not by Allah, anyway, but by plenty of humans.

the covenant of Shaddai that was given to Moses to give to the descendants of Isreal was first meant for them, but if a goyim wished to follow them, then they were allowed to as well. For if anyone follows the laws, even without knowing it, they are following the will of G-d that is written upon their hearts.

According to the Bible the law has always been there, and that it has never changed, and will never change, and yet it was shown that it was ok for people to eat things that were later forbidden. Was it that we were given persmission to go against the Law, or that it wasn't there yet, in which case the law hasn't always been there.

According to the Bible the law has always been there, and that it has never changed, and will never change, and yet it was shown that it was ok for people to eat things that were later forbidden. Was it that we were given persmission to go against the Law, or that it wasn't there yet, in which case the law hasn't always been there.

It was there, but we didn't always recognize it. It's sort of like the medical loophole. If you are starving to death and the only thing available to eat is pork, then you can eat that pork without worry of uncleanliness. All laws can be violated to save a life.

It almost seems to me that after the flood, Allah began to realize that we really are a stupid species and must be told every little stinkin' thing two or three times before we get it. It must be endlessly infuriating.

It was there, but we didn't always recognize it. It's sort of like the medical loophole. If you are starving to death and the only thing available to eat is pork, then you can eat that pork without worry of uncleanliness. All laws can be violated to save a life.

It almost seems to me that after the flood, Allah began to realize that we really are a stupid species and must be told every little stinkin' thing two or three times before we get it. It must be endlessly infuriating.

I think the laws are only there because we humans demanded it. The divine didn't want us to be shown the way, he wanted us to find the way. We demanded rulers, judges, kings, and priests, so we had to live with the repercussions of those things that we asked for.

Its shown many times in the bible that there are different rules for different people, the levi's for example were allowed to do many things that others couldn't do, but at the same time they didn't own land or have inheritance. I guess the right thing to say about all this is simply, if you the Divine leads you down a path, no matter what it looks like to the outsider, its the path we are meant to be led down. The hard part is to follow the path we are meant to follow, and keeping the path that the world wants us to follow apart.

So if I shouldn't eat pork, should I also be out there stoning homosexuals and what not?

Just curious.

I guess the right thing to say about all this is simply, if you the Divine leads you down a path, no matter what it looks like to the outsider, its the path we are meant to be led down. The hard part is to follow the path we are meant to follow, and keeping the path that the world wants us to follow apart.

Wise words, brother. Wise words.

So if I shouldn't eat pork, should I also be out there stoning homosexuals and what not?

Just curious.

Noooo ... Thou Shalt Not Murder.

So if I shouldn't eat pork, should I also be out there stoning homosexuals and what not?

Just curious.

only the sinless can throw stones....so according to some catholics, The Virgin Mary should have shown up and thrown some stones.

I don't know what is harder to believe, a married woman remaining a virgin, or a guy going without sex.

Noooo ... Thou Shalt Not Murder.

But it says that they are an abomination in that law thingy you claim still applies to us all.

So it's not a murder. It's godly justice.

Matthew 15:11
"That which enters into the mouth doesn't defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

This pretty much undid most of the old "do not eat" laws.

Matthew 15:11
"That which enters into the mouth doesn't defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

This pretty much undid most of the old "do not eat" laws.


Oy vey ... *read* a thread before replying to it. That's already been discussed and debunked. He's not talking about food.

Oy vey ... *read* a thread before replying to it. That's already been discussed and debunked. He's not talking about food.

Oops! Sorry! It's early, and there are so many new threads that I don't have time to go through all the pages... *blushes*.

Still, even if it he was talking about sin, can't the quote be applicable anyway? Otherwise he surely would have used some other example...?

Still, even if it he was talking about sin, can't the quote be applicable anyway? Otherwise he surely would have used some other example...?

By that logic, man on man oral sex is perfectly ok as long as you swallow.

Find me a Christian willing to concede that. :D

By that logic, man on man oral sex is perfectly ok as long as you swallow.

Find me a Christian willing to concede that. :D

You have heard of the Church of England, haven't you?

By that logic, man on man oral sex is perfectly ok as long as you swallow.

Find me a Christian willing to concede that. :D


This Guy (http://www.blessedquietness.com/jbakker.jpg)

By that logic, man on man oral sex is perfectly ok as long as you swallow.

Find me a Christian willing to concede that. :D

Ooh! Now that's my kind of religion! :D

Seriously though, I doubt that the idea of oral sex even existed in those times, man-man or otherwise. I still think that the verses make a distinction between spiritual cleanliness (eating things not sinful) and bodily cleanliness (eating some things can still make you sick). Again, like almost all singular quotes in the Bible, this one is subject to interpretation. A quick Google came up with sites arguing both standpoints:

That he was casting aside the OT dietary laws ( http://www.cresourcei.org/biblestudy/bbmatt12.html ), or

That he was simply referring to 'food' as that which in the OT was recognized as such ( http://www.jesusisajew.org/Short/MK7V19.htm ).

By that logic, man on man oral sex is perfectly ok as long as you swallow.

Find me a Christian willing to concede that. :D

I do believe that the verse in question is talking about that which G-d has given is clean regardless of what others have to say. Its talking about food, money, housing, etc.

Seriously though, I doubt that the idea of oral sex even existed in those times, man-man or otherwise.

That's rather ridiculous. Just because someone lived thousands of years ago doesn't mean they were blind- or unimaginative.

How old is the Kama Sutra? Anyone?

Seriously though, I doubt that the idea of oral sex even existed in those times, man-man or otherwise.


**laughs** Oh, please tell me you were kidding.

...That has got to be the silliest thing I've heard in months. When, pray tell, do you believe oral sex was invented? People have gotten each other off for endless years now, since the dawn of man. Do you honestly believe that it took until after the time of Christ's life for someone to notice a mouth was warm and wet?!

why would "god" allah, whoever your favorite deity is, have created pigs if not for consumption, they don't really do much of a service to the environment

Actually, pigs do great service to the enviroment. For example, when they dig about the ground looking for food, they churn the soil, encouraging it to be more fertile, making plants grow to replace the ones they eat.

This is why pigs and wild boars are encouraged in areas of Scotland, to save the green belt there.

Also, their manure is useful for fertilisation too.

Pigs and their relatives are part of a food chain.

Vegetation consumes water and light, Boars consume vegatation, predators such as bears and wolves consume the boar, which should end there if it were not for humans shooting the wolves and boar.

So in conclusion the boar is of enormous service to the enviroment, and were not created solely for consumption by humans, who eat many different type of things, they being omnivorious by nature, meaning they are both Carnivore and herbivore in design, but not neccessarily in practice when we look at vegetarians and Vegans.

If there is a god, he/she/it or nature created/evolved pigs to encourage new growth in green belt areas, as well as being prey to predators.

I was raised a Jew, but converted to Christianity. I still don't eat pork, though. My husband eats pork, but we keep the dishes and cooking instruments separate. I can't accept pork as edible, nor do I mix my meat and milk. I do eat the heck out of shellfish though. :(

For those of you who do eat pork, visit a burn unit and see if roast pork still smells good.

Ok first off i'm a Christians and have been my whole life. I was just reading the Bible recently, and I say that it said that you can't eat the pig.

Dueteronomy 14:8
The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat thier meat or touch thier carcasses.

I was always led to believe that only Muslims, Jews, and vegaterian didn't eat pork. But clearly it says not to. My pastor has always said to follow the bible as closely as possible but......

Any Christians have any answers? :confused:
Yeah, sure :) That's the Old Testament - you know, all the Jewish laws about kosher food? That's what it relates to. The New Testament (which the Jews don't believe) says that those laws aren't applicable anymore. So Jews and Christians have different food laws, and that's why Christians can eat pork.
But I'm a vegetarian :D
Edit: Again, sorry, having read through the thread now, I see Keruvalia has already dealt with this and I don't want him to get mad at me :)

only the sinless can throw stones....so according to some catholics, The Virgin Mary should have shown up and thrown some stones.

I don't know what is harder to believe, a married woman remaining a virgin, or a guy going without sex.
She didn't remain a virgin, it was only until after the birth of Christ. Jesus had lots of younger siblings. Look it up.

Get Grave n idle in here.....I'm sure he can give you the low down. He's brilliant on so many subjects...religion being one of the top ones.
Sorry but graven idle is not brilliant about christianity, he's just trying to turn it into what he thinks it is. For instance, he once tried using a passage that condemns a man for bumping into a woman and accidentaly causing a miscariage to prove that the bible condones abortion.... complete lies, please dont listen to this person reguarding christianity.

By that logic, man on man oral sex is perfectly ok as long as you swallow.

Find me a Christian willing to concede that. :D
You have no idea what you're talking about reguarding christianity. Your posts are so riddled with inconsistencies that I cant see how anyone takes you seriously. You an graven idle obviously both have the same agenda.

(deleted ugly personal attack and apologised)

Sorry for the attacks, you guys may be knowledgable in other things and you may be nice people but in every christianity thread I see, you two are filling it up with lies.

There is a verse in Acts 11, actually, verses 7 through 9: this is Peter speaking, "I also heard a voice saying to me, 'get up Peter; slaughter and eat!' But I said, 'Certainly not, Lord, for nothing defiled or ritually unclean has ever entered my mouth!' But the voice replied a second time from heaven, 'What God has made clean, you must not consider ritually unclean!'"

Basically, we are no longer bound to the excessive and rewstraining laws that once held us down (sacrafice, pork, etc.). Only due to Jesus, because he has completely revolutionized the way to get to heaven, now there need be no more sacrafices of innocent animals (PETA would be all over us anyway), now we need no longer start a 20 minute prayer every time we lie.

So, I could walk through a graveyard, if I wanted, and not be 'defiled.'

Sorry but graven idle is not brilliant about christianity, he just tries endlessly to turn it into what he thinks it is. He's anti christian and tries to ruin other peoples religion with falsehoods. He tried using a passage that condemns a man for bumping into a woman and accidentaly causing a miscariage to prove that the bible condones abortion.... complete lies, please dont listen to this person reguarding christianity.

He's right, but I'm about to continue a debate with him on the "Intelligent Design...lengthy rant" thread.

See ya.

If you are truly sorry, why havent you deleted those posts or at least edited them to be nicer?
I should have been nicer but I am not the most eloquent speaker and I just wanted to state my case forcefully. I apologise. I just dont want some of the younger greener NS posters to take these guys views on christianity without questioning it. I am offended by their attacks on my religion and I spoke or uh posted out of frustration. I'm sure that there other areas of life that we could discuss amicably.

Ok I'll do it

Redeemable sin is better than make-up sex.

Redeemable sin is better than make-up sex.
What can I say, I'm a softie. I try to be nice but hey nobody's perfect. When you are rightfully corrected, you should do your best to accept it. Lazy hippies was right, I realized that my ugly language actually did not help my argument and it was a little mean spirited so I changed it. I wish I could edit real convesations like this...