NationStates Jolt Archive

-The English introduced Penal Laws in 1695 to persecute the Catholic Church and its followers. These laws banned Catholics from public office, the legal profession and military. They were not permitted to vote, teach or maintain Catholic schools, or purchase land. Church services were held in secret.

In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years. Faced with starvation and abject poverty about 1.5 million Irish fled to other lands, namely America, while another million starved to death in Ireland, or died on the "coffin ships" headed to America. During the famine years England continued to import meat from Ireland, while the Irish starved. Many Irish have never forgiven England for failing to intervene and argue that the English policy amounted to genocide against the Irish race. By 1900, Irish Catholics owned only about 7% of their homeland and were doomed to their destiny as an underclass.

-Belfast events echoed the conflict in Derry. Protestant mobs attacked Catholic communities and hundreds of homes were burned and destroyed. Overwhelmed, the police sided with their Protestant brethren and the IRA resurfaced to defend Catholics.

-Civil rights demonstrations continued and on "Bloody Sunday", January 30, 1972, the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a peaceful demonstration in Derry, killing 13 unarmed Catholics.

-In some parades the bands representing Loyalist paramilitary groups play sectarian tunes as they intentionally pass through Catholic neighborhoods. Naturally, residents object to these triumphalist displays, just as black communities would object to Ku Klux Klan parades, or Jews would object to Nazi parades through their communities. Beleaguered Catholics have had enough and refuse to consent to such parades.

-Over the years over 1 million Irish have been murdered/tortured to death by English

And I'm not saying ALL British are evil. I have British friends. But the country itself has been raping Ireland for 1000 years.

Commando3']And I'm not saying ALL British are evil. I have British friends. But the country itself has been raping Ireland for 1000 years.
1000? But we only invaded in 1600 and summat, didn't we?

1000? But we only invaded in 1600 and summat, didn't we?

In the early 1200's I believe England began colinization. However once England becamse Anglican/Puritan is when they started murdering, raping, torturing, and pillaging the Irish people.

Yeah, uh huh, right....

You do know its 2005, right? Ulster is actually really nice now. The Brits aren't oppressing anybody anymore. Sure they did alot of bad shit in the past. But to be fair, they did alot of bad shit in the past wherever they went. Besides, they've apologized for alot of that stuff. If they wanted to really screw over the Irish people they would return Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland right now. That would really fuck them over.

Yep. Good thing Ireland is independant now, eh?

Yeah, that's great and all, but my family on one side comes from Ireland, and was there during the ancient atrocities referenced... but it's funny, I don't seem to hold it against anybody, today.

What I mean to ask is, are you making a point, or just trying to incite negative base feelings in order to some day gain some personal power or other profit?

Commando3']-The English introduced Penal Laws in 1695 to persecute the Catholic Church and its followers. These laws banned Catholics from public office, the legal profession and military. They were not permitted to vote, teach or maintain Catholic schools, or purchase land. Church services were held in secret.

Yes the penal laws were horrible on paper. But read into the history surrounding them. They actually harm Presbyterians more than they harmed Catholics.

In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years. Faced with starvation and abject poverty about 1.5 million Irish fled to other lands, namely America, while another million starved to death in Ireland, or died on the "coffin ships" headed to America. During the famine years England continued to import meat from Ireland, while the Irish starved. Many Irish have never forgiven England for failing to intervene and argue that the English policy amounted to genocide against the Irish race. By 1900, Irish Catholics owned only about 7% of their homeland and were doomed to their destiny as an underclass.

Irish race? Dude, wtf :confused:

Regarding the last clause. I agree that Irish ownership of land was around the figure you gave. But dammit they now have independence, so wtf do you mean by "doomed to their destiny as an underclass" exactly?


-Belfast events echoed the conflict in Derry. Protestant mobs attacked Catholic communities and hundreds of homes were burned and destroyed. Overwhelmed, the police sided with their Protestant brethren and the IRA resurfaced to defend Catholics.

Yeah that's right. The Catholics were angel by comparison :rolleyes:

-Civil rights demonstrations continued and on "Bloody Sunday", January 30, 1972, the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a peaceful demonstration in Derry, killing 13 unarmed Catholics.

Isn't this still being disputed?

-In some parades the bands representing Loyalist paramilitary groups play sectarian tunes as they intentionally pass through Catholic neighborhoods. Naturally, residents object to these triumphalist displays, just as black communities would object to Ku Klux Klan parades, or Jews would object to Nazi parades through their communities. Beleaguered Catholics have had enough and refuse to consent to such parades.

-Over the years over 1 million Irish have been murdered/tortured to death by English

I'm not trying to defend what the English did in Ireland (yes English, not British). But you are picking some very trite, inane and romantisised examples.

And for fucks sake most of this was over a century ago, no English person living now was active then.

And for the record I don't have a drop of English blood in my and I was raised Catholic.

Irish race? Dude, wtf Race is not necceesarily color. If that were the case, then one could make the claim that Italians and Libyans are the same race. Race has more to do with ancestral roots, "Celtic race" would be more appropriate, with Irish as the particular ethnicity. (BTW, I'm not some racist bigot who spends all his time thinking about this, I just wanted to correct a common misconception people hold.)

Race is not necceesarily color. If that were the case, then one could make the claim that Italians and Libyans are the same race. Race has more to do with ancestral roots, "Celtic race" would be more appropriate, with Irish as the particular ethnicity. (BTW, I'm not some racist bigot who spends all his time thinking about this, I just wanted to correct a common misconception people hold.)
I agree!

Commando3']-The English introduced Penal Laws in 1695 to persecute the Catholic Church and its followers. These laws banned Catholics from public office, the legal profession and military. They were not permitted to vote, teach or maintain Catholic schools, or purchase land. Church services were held in secret.

In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years. Faced with starvation and abject poverty about 1.5 million Irish fled to other lands, namely America, while another million starved to death in Ireland, or died on the "coffin ships" headed to America. During the famine years England continued to import meat from Ireland, while the Irish starved. Many Irish have never forgiven England for failing to intervene and argue that the English policy amounted to genocide against the Irish race. By 1900, Irish Catholics owned only about 7% of their homeland and were doomed to their destiny as an underclass.

-Belfast events echoed the conflict in Derry. Protestant mobs attacked Catholic communities and hundreds of homes were burned and destroyed. Overwhelmed, the police sided with their Protestant brethren and the IRA resurfaced to defend Catholics.

-Civil rights demonstrations continued and on "Bloody Sunday", January 30, 1972, the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a peaceful demonstration in Derry, killing 13 unarmed Catholics.

-In some parades the bands representing Loyalist paramilitary groups play sectarian tunes as they intentionally pass through Catholic neighborhoods. Naturally, residents object to these triumphalist displays, just as black communities would object to Ku Klux Klan parades, or Jews would object to Nazi parades through their communities. Beleaguered Catholics have had enough and refuse to consent to such parades.

-Over the years over 1 million Irish have been murdered/tortured to death by English


At last a person that gives us the truth. Good Work!!! :)

Commando3 you should have noted that this is HISTORY thread. Nobody on the island of Ireland, except perhaps the most paranoid of nationalists, feels oppressed by the British today.

Commando3 you should have noted that this is HISTORY thread. Nobody on the island of Ireland, except perhaps the most paranoid of nationalists, feels oppressed by the British today.
I don't think he said that, but the Catholics feel oppressed in Northern Ireland tody.

Rebellious Irish. Kill them all and invade the rest of Ireland. Then set up an education board there and educate their kids wrongly for a joke.

Commando3']-The English introduced Penal Laws in 1695 to persecute the Catholic Church and its followers. These laws banned Catholics from public office, the legal profession and military. They were not permitted to vote, teach or maintain Catholic schools, or purchase land. Church services were held in secret.

Well, on a technicality, William III was Dutch not English. I'm not use this as an excuse, but...still.

In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years. Faced with starvation and abject poverty about 1.5 million Irish fled to other lands, namely America, while another million starved to death in Ireland, or died on the "coffin ships" headed to America. During the famine years England continued to import meat from Ireland, while the Irish starved. Many Irish have never forgiven England for failing to intervene and argue that the English policy amounted to genocide against the Irish race. By 1900, Irish Catholics owned only about 7% of their homeland and were doomed to their destiny as an underclass.

In 1845 Ireland's Great Famine caused no serious deaths. It was not until its later years (1846-49) that there were any meaningful numbers of deaths that can be attributed to the Famine.
The British response was limited, as it was based on calculations made on previous years (e.g. 1846 was based on 1845, 1847 based on '46 etc). As no-one knew what was causing the Famine (the Potato Blight) there was no way that the British Govt could know with any certainty that the next year would not yield an excellent crop.
There were also other factors, not least of which being that much of Europe was also in Famine conditions so the amount of available food for import was limited. In order to try and provide food fairly (or as fairly as Laissez-Faire governance would allow) food was provided on the basis of work carried out by the Irish workers. They would then be paid and could use that money to buy food from the government provided grain stores. As with all British governments of the period they expected that business would provide for any other foodstuffs that would be required but(in an attempt to speed this through, the Corn Laws were repealed expediantly), as is businesses want, they increased the price of food to an extent that it was impossible for the locals to buy the imports.
In response that the British could have left the food that was being imported to the mainland in Ireland, I again refer to the fact that Europe as a whole was undergoing a famine and so Britain continued to import food into the mainland as it would have been foolish for the Govt not to try and placate the British public (not least the Chartist movement) as should any revolution occur, one on the mainland would be much more problematic than one in Ireland.


-Belfast events echoed the conflict in Derry. Protestant mobs attacked Catholic communities and hundreds of homes were burned and destroyed. Overwhelmed, the police sided with their Protestant brethren and the IRA resurfaced to defend Catholics.

Not knowing enough about this individual event I will not comment, however it must be noted that the Catholics were not unknown to do similar things to Protestants.

-Civil rights demonstrations continued and on "Bloody Sunday", January 30, 1972, the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a peaceful demonstration in Derry, killing 13 unarmed Catholics.

This is still undergoing much debate.


-Over the years over 1 million Irish have been murdered/tortured to death by English

Shouldn't that be British really (most land-owners in Ireland were Scottish.

This does not mean I support all of the policies put about by British Governments in Ireland, however, I do feel that its historical significance should be taken into account.
Also, this is now history. Though it is good to remember history, it should not necessarily dictate modern positions.

Commando3']In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years.

Actually, the only crop that failed was the potato crop, which was the staple of the Irish diet. During the Great Famine, Ireland exported food to England. The amount of food exported would have prevented the starvation of a majority of the population of Ireland had they been allowed to consume it rather than export it.

i would argue with you....but i really cant be arsed

all i will say is that you have no idea what its actually like to live in "occupied" Northern Ireland (seeing as the rest is an independent republic, i guess thats what you are talking about)

If they wanted to really screw over the Irish people they would return Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland right now. That would really fuck them over.

And most people in the Republic along with about 40-45% of the North would gladly accept that screw job.

Rebellious Irish. Kill them all and invade the rest of Ireland. Then set up an education board there and educated their kids wrongly for a joke.
Why don't you just do the world a great deed and shoot yourself in that empty head of yours. I'm dead serious too by the way.

Oh, i do get so sick of this!

Yes we tried to invade Ireland. But England had by that time also been invaded by the french, romans and vikings. We werent even Celts anymore by the time we're were all into inavding people!

Not only that, a resonable compromise was reached, Northern Ireland and Ireland. Those who didnt want to be part of the UK were free to move south.

Then consider what we did to scotland (i'm half scots). did you see them bombing england? NO. Have they got what they want now (a local parliment)?. YES!

The Irish need to get over themselves. I didnt do you any wrong. I didnt try to invade you. You are arguing a war that is ancient.

Are the english really pissed off with the saxons/french/romans still?

Get over it, shit happened!

Right now, the British want nothing more than to have the problem of Northern Ireland off their backs. You can hear it in Tony Blair's speeches as clear as dawn. The problem is, the Irish don't want us either.

Not that I blame them. Ulster is an economic dead horse, not to mention a political black smudge. Students are increasingly moving to either the south or to mainland Britain, leaving the north with a sub-par workforce (a shame, given the province's generally good education system). Its claim to fame, the ship-building trade, is now practically without value, while all that seems to be replacing it is the agricultural sector or small informatics companies that could just as easily be formed anywhere else. Put simply, it's not worth the hassle of sorting out the political situation.

The devolved government has been suspended and is likely to remain so both during and after the upcoming elections. The representatives for the Catholics are disreputed with links to terrorist organisations while the representatives for the Protestants are brash, loud, obnoxious and uncompromising. The working class on both sides are becoming increasingly extremist in their voting habits, the middle class are giving up in despair and the Irish and English politicians are sitting back and hoping the two sides kill each other off.

It's not just the catholics feeling repressed here. A society of hatred represses all within its grasp.

Oh, and I do hate making this point over and over again, but the terms Catholic and Protestant do not refer to religious belief in Ulster. A majority of Belfast Catholics have never attended mass, just as the majority of Protestants wouldn't be seen dead near a Church. It is purely a societal label; a way of saying "You're on that side, we're on this side".

And I'm neither. United Ireland, stay with Great Britain... who cares as long as people stop effin' killing each other?

If they wanted to really screw over the Irish people they would return Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland right now. That would really fuck them over.

Oh yes, that would teach us - dropping us from the stagnant UK economy and letting the Celtic Tiger take its place...

Race is not necceesarily color. If that were the case, then one could make the claim that Italians and Libyans are the same race. Race has more to do with ancestral roots, "Celtic race" would be more appropriate, with Irish as the particular ethnicity. (BTW, I'm not some racist bigot who spends all his time thinking about this, I just wanted to correct a common misconception people hold.)

This is all very well as a theory of race, but fails to note that the rest of the British are also Celts by origin, which kind of puts paid to an idea of genocide of the 'Irish race', no?

This is all very well as a theory of race, but fails to note that the rest of the British are also Celts by origin, which kind of puts paid to an idea of genocide of the 'Irish race', no?
England is the only nation in the British union that is not of Celtic origin so it can be said 'genocide of the Irish race'.

England is the only nation in the British union that is not of Celtic origin so it can be said 'genocide of the Irish race'.
despite the fact that the vast majority of the settlers in (Northern) Ireland, and those that have imposed the subsequent 'oppression', were Scottish?

despite the fact that the vast majority of the settlers in (Northern) Ireland, and those that have imposed the subsequent 'oppression', were Scottish?

...and prior to that had Irish roots.

despite the fact that the vast majority of the settlers in (Northern) Ireland, and those that have imposed the subsequent 'oppression', were Scottish?
Scapegoats.
Look he said that Britain, all of it, is of Celtic origin. Not true.
The demand came from England and the Irish produced what was needed. The source is England and thus they are to blame.
P.S. People of the same race (origin) can still commit genocide on their own people. The Irish came from Scotland, they were Scottish Celts.

Commando3']-The English introduced Penal Laws in 1695 to persecute the Catholic Church and its followers. These laws banned Catholics from public office, the legal profession and military. They were not permitted to vote, teach or maintain Catholic schools, or purchase land. Church services were held in secret.

In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years. Faced with starvation and abject poverty about 1.5 million Irish fled to other lands, namely America, while another million starved to death in Ireland, or died on the "coffin ships" headed to America. During the famine years England continued to import meat from Ireland, while the Irish starved. Many Irish have never forgiven England for failing to intervene and argue that the English policy amounted to genocide against the Irish race. By 1900, Irish Catholics owned only about 7% of their homeland and were doomed to their destiny as an underclass.

-Belfast events echoed the conflict in Derry. Protestant mobs attacked Catholic communities and hundreds of homes were burned and destroyed. Overwhelmed, the police sided with their Protestant brethren and the IRA resurfaced to defend Catholics.

-Civil rights demonstrations continued and on "Bloody Sunday", January 30, 1972, the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a peaceful demonstration in Derry, killing 13 unarmed Catholics.

-In some parades the bands representing Loyalist paramilitary groups play sectarian tunes as they intentionally pass through Catholic neighborhoods. Naturally, residents object to these triumphalist displays, just as black communities would object to Ku Klux Klan parades, or Jews would object to Nazi parades through their communities. Beleaguered Catholics have had enough and refuse to consent to such parades.

-Over the years over 1 million Irish have been murdered/tortured to death by English

Yes, Britain has its faults, many of them. But who the hell doesn't?

England is the only nation in the British union that is not of Celtic origin so it can be said 'genocide of the Irish race'.

So what origin do the English have, then? - and are you claiming that there also exists an English race, a Welsh race and a Scottish race?




Nevermind the fact that the Picts, once again seem to have got written out of history.

So what origin do the English have, then? - and are you claiming that there also exists an English race, a Welsh race and a Scottish race?
Nevermind the fact that the Picts, once again seem to have got written out of history.

Scotland, Ireland and Wales are of Celtic origin, the same and only Celtic race.
England is a mix of two people, races, tribes or whatever you want to call it. The Anglo and the Saxon, Anglo-Saxon, get it?
The Picts are a small group of people that have, for the most part, been cast away from history. Very sad.

Who ,or any other person for that matter, are you to say that each nation is not a race in it's own right. Think about it, they are a nation united by culture, history, language etc.

This is all very well as a theory of race, but fails to note that the rest of the British are also Celts by origin, which kind of puts paid to an idea of genocide of the 'Irish race', no? The island of Britain was invaded a number after the Celts arrived there, whereas the first post-Celt invasion of Ireland was that of Vikings, so the Irish are still much closer to being "Celts" than inhabitants of Britain, who had been invaded and conquered by the Romans and then the Saxons. There's also a cultural difference, the Irish molded their invaders for the most part, case in point, "FitzGerald" is considered an Irish name, even though it's Old Norman, from the invasion of Strongbow. The British (throughout history, not neccesarily present day) mostly adapted to their conquerers, and because of this, the Celtic ancestry that some of them have is muffled. Thusly, after losing their Celtic culture and watering down (I don't mean that offensively, but I couldn't think of another phrase) their Celtic blood (once again, couldn't think of suitable replacement), they are no longer Celts, and are not of the same race as the Irish.

Scotland, Ireland and Wales are of Celtic origin, the same and only Celtic race.

So why were the Scots-Irish trying to commit genocide against their own race?


England is a mix of two people, races, tribes or whatever you want to call it. The Anglo and the Saxon, Anglo-Saxon, get it?

Yes, I am familiar with the term 'Anglo-Saxon', however the evidence shows not that an actual Saxon invasion occured, but instead that a slow process of Anglo-Saxon culture rising to dominance took place - intermarriage with the Celtic people of what is now England certainly took place. It is not so much a mix of two people, but rather a rise to political and cultural dominance of two amongst many different strands.

even though it's Old Norman, from the invasion of Strongbow.
speaking of Strongbow....i believe my fathers side of my family originally came to Ireland as one of the knights he brought with him.

anyway....carry on

So why were the Scots-Irish trying to commit genocide against their own race?.

The Irish did'nt, they were the victims. The Scots have become the scapegoats of England wich is sad because the Scottish are a very nice people by nature.
As someone stated on this thread England was importing food from Ireland at the time of the famine and the Irish did not get to eat their own food because the English had taken it. The Irish could not do anything because of the Scottish landowners that England had given Irish land to and the same Scots could not help them (the Irish) because of English rule, that is they would have lost everything they had. England is the source of the problem.
Blackmail if you think about it.
Basically titles, land, wealth, greed etc. had the final say in the matter.

1000? But we only invaded in 1600 and summat, didn't we?

Since the beginning they hated each other.

The Irish did'nt, they were the victims. The Scots have become the scapegoats of England wich is sad because the Scottish are a very nice people by nature.
As someone stated on this thread England was importing food from Ireland at the time of the famine and the Irish did not get to eat their own food because the English had taken it. The Irish could not do anything because of the Scottish landowners that England had given Irish land to and the same Scots could not help them (the Irish) because of English rule, that is they would have lost everything they had. England is the source of the problem.
Blackmail if you think about it.
Basically titles, land, wealth, greed etc. had the final say in the matter.

A three year event. Almost makes me cry which is hard to do.

The Irish did'nt, they were the victims. The Scots have become the scapegoats of England wich is sad because the Scottish are a very nice people by nature.

The majority of those who moved over here during the Plantation were Scots, yes? And the majority of those now resident in Northern Ireland are Scots-Irish, yes? So how are they being scapegoated?

The whole claim of genocide against the so-called 'Irish race' is spurious.

The Irish did'nt, they were the victims. The Scots have become the scapegoats of England wich is sad because the Scottish are a very nice people by nature.
...
Blackmail if you think about it.
Basically titles, land, wealth, greed etc. had the final say in the matter.

Question for you: who sat on the throne during the Plantation when the Scottish came over in their droves?

Question for you: who sat on the throne during the Plantation when the Scottish came over in their droves?

Boony Prince Charlie?

Question for you: who sat on the throne during the Plantation when the Scottish came over in their droves?
i think North Island has just lost this argument....

Boony Prince Charlie?

Minalkra: nil points.

Boony Prince Charlie?
King James VI of Scotland

Minalkra: nil points.

Oi! Don't I get one for trying?

Oi! Don't I get one for trying?

You got italics for at least getting the right nationality.

1.The majority of those who moved over here during the Plantaiton were Scots, yes? 2.And the majority of those now resident in Northern Ireland are Scots-Irish, yes? 3.So how are they being scapegoated?

The whole claim of genocide against the so-called 'Irish race' is spurious.

We should talk about this on Skype or something. English is not my first language so I really don't know how to wright what I want to say sometimes and the reason for that is because I don't know how to wright it in English but I can say it.

1.Yes.

2.If you want to put it in that way then yes. They were moved to Ireland, you know why.

3.Know you are mixing past with present.
The protestants in Northern Ireland today are not the scapegoats. The Scottish landowners were the scapegoats. People did not see the English but they did see the Scottish landowners so there you see who they blamed.
Irish food was in high demand by the English and the Irish had no other place to work except on the lands of the Scots, the same lands the English granted them. About 7% of Irish land was in Irish hands the rest was not.

I'm American by birth. Lived in the UK. Travelled through most of Ireland. I pesonally think N.Ireland should not be part of the UK. It should be included in the Irish nation. The whole island makes up Ireland in my mind. Past abuses by the English are outrageous. But to forgive and heal I think N. Ireland should be unified into Ireland proper.

<snip>
the same lands the Scottish King granted them. About 7% of Irish land was in Irish hands the rest was not.

much better

3.Know you are mixing past with present.
The protestants in Northern Ireland today are not the scapegoats. The Scottish landowners were the scapegoats. People did not see the English but they did see the Scottish landowners so there you see who they blamed.
Irish food was in high demand by the English and the Irish had no other place to work except on the lands of the Scots, the same lands the English granted them. About 7% of Irish land was in Irish hands the rest was not.

The Scottish and English landowners, were however granted their possessions in Ireland by a Scotsman, yes?

Oh yes, that would teach us - dropping us from the stagnant UK economy and letting the Celtic Tiger take its place...
The republic of Ireland has a good and rapidly developing economy, dropping Ulster on them would end that pretty quickly. Between the in fighting and economic trouble already present it would pretty much squish the promising development in the south. Its much harder to manage economic issues when you're trying to keep people from blowing each other up.

Don't get me wrong, I think they should be one country. All I'm saying is that you can't simply solve all this by an immediate handover. The British know that. They don't want to deal with NI anymore, and I don't blame them. At the same time however by keeping it they are allowing the republic alot of oppurtunity for growth.

I'm American by birth. Lived in the UK. Travelled through most of Ireland. I pesonally think N.Ireland should not be part of the UK. It should be included in the Irish nation. The whole island makes up Ireland in my mind. Past abuses by the English are outrageous. But to forgive and heal I think N. Ireland should be unified into Ireland proper.
against the wishes of the majority of the people who actually live in Northern Ireland?

But to forgive and heal I think N. Ireland should be unified into Ireland proper.

However, the majority of the population of Northern Ireland want to remain part of the Union, rather than to be part of a 32 county Ireland, so do they not get a say in the matter?

against the wishes of the majority of the people who actually live in Northern Ireland?


Move their English arses out if they dont like it.

Move their English arses out if they dont like it.
the "English" in Northern Ireland are Ulster-Scottish....most of whom were originally descended from that vague area of Ireland

...

you were saying?

Its much harder to manage economic issues when you're trying to keep people from blowing each other up.

So your roadmap to justice involves plunging the 6 counties back into full on armed struggle?

Don't get me wrong, I think they should be one country.

Less flippantly: why?

the "English" in Northern Ireland are Ulster-Scottish....most of whom were originally descended from that vague area of Ireland

...

you were saying?

What he just said.

So your roadmap to justice involves plunging the 6 counties back into full on armed struggle?
Huh, what are you talking about? :confused:

I'm not even sure where that came from.

Question for you: who sat on the throne during the Plantation when the Scottish came over in their droves?
And your point is what? Because he was Scottish bla bla bla. Has nothing to do with it. England was and is the largest of all the united nation of Britain, if they are unhappy the King is in deep shæt. England allways comes first in the union.

Huh, what are you talking about? :confused:

I'm not even sure where that came from.

Its much harder to manage economic issues when you're trying to keep people from blowing each other up.

Inference from that sentence.

The Scottish and English landowners, were however granted their possessions in Ireland by a Scotsman, yes?
He was an English King also, Yes?

He was an English King also, Yes?
he was Scottish, he just happened to inherit the throne of England as well

And your point is what? Because he was Scottish bla bla bla. Has nothing to do with it. England was and is the largest of all the united nation of Britain, if they are unhappy the King is in deep shæt. England allways comes first in the union.

If you look at the causes behind the Plantation in the C17th you will see that it was a solution to primarily Scottish problems carried out by a Scottish monarch: the chance to rid Scotland of dissenters, troublemakers and their sympathisers by encouraging them to relocate to Ireland with the promise of lands, power and a modicum of independence.

He was an English King also, Yes?

Yes, he reigned as King James I of Scotland for several years before he inherited the English throne and reigned as James VI there: the transfer of the English crown to this Scot was the birth of Great Britain as a political unity, although this wasn't officially sealed until about a hundred years later.

Inference from that sentence.
Ok...

If you read the rest of what I wrote you know I was talking in reference to the republic of Ireland. They are trying to develop an economy, which would be much harder to do if they had to oversee the current troubles in Ulster. Right now the British are working on those. I don't see anything I said that implies Britian should just allow civil war to break out.

Commando3']-The English introduced Penal Laws in 1695 to persecute the Catholic Church and its followers. These laws banned Catholics from public office, the legal profession and military. They were not permitted to vote, teach or maintain Catholic schools, or purchase land. Church services were held in secret.

In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years. Faced with starvation and abject poverty about 1.5 million Irish fled to other lands, namely America, while another million starved to death in Ireland, or died on the "coffin ships" headed to America. During the famine years England continued to import meat from Ireland, while the Irish starved. Many Irish have never forgiven England for failing to intervene and argue that the English policy amounted to genocide against the Irish race. By 1900, Irish Catholics owned only about 7% of their homeland and were doomed to their destiny as an underclass.

-Belfast events echoed the conflict in Derry. Protestant mobs attacked Catholic communities and hundreds of homes were burned and destroyed. Overwhelmed, the police sided with their Protestant brethren and the IRA resurfaced to defend Catholics.

-Civil rights demonstrations continued and on "Bloody Sunday", January 30, 1972, the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a peaceful demonstration in Derry, killing 13 unarmed Catholics.

-In some parades the bands representing Loyalist paramilitary groups play sectarian tunes as they intentionally pass through Catholic neighborhoods. Naturally, residents object to these triumphalist displays, just as black communities would object to Ku Klux Klan parades, or Jews would object to Nazi parades through their communities. Beleaguered Catholics have had enough and refuse to consent to such parades.

-Over the years over 1 million Irish have been murdered/tortured to death by English

so i hear those parades happen every month

so i hear those parades happen every month
Orange parades?

Ok...

If you read the rest of what I wrote you know I was talking in reference to the republic of Ireland. They are trying to develop an economy, which would be much harder to do if they had to oversee the current troubles in Ulster. Right now the British are working on those. I don't see anything I said that implies Britian should just allow civil war to break out.

Ah right: confusion engendered by your earlier post:

If they wanted to really screw over the Irish people they would return Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland right now. That would really fuck them over.

Wherein I was reading the 'Irish' to mean the inhabitants of Northern Ireland (particularly those actually wanting a Unified Ireland), and was reading your later posts in the light of the UK having passed NI over to Eire... you can see how we got something of a crossed line there.

If you look at the causes behind the Plantation in the C17th you will see that it was a solution to primarily Scottish problems carried out by a Scottish monarch: the chance to rid Scotland of dissenters, troublemakers and their sympathisers by encouraging them to relocate to Ireland with the promise of lands, power and a modicum of independence.

Like Australia, is that what you are saying?

Like Australia, is that what you are saying?

Some were transported against their will while others were presented with the offer of a fresh start in the position of landlords.


I'll make it clear here that in no way am I claiming that English hands are clean when it comes to Ireland, but instead I am just pointing out that a black-and-white picture of the Anglo-Saxon English waging genocide on the Celts/the 'Irish race' doesn't really help to come to an understanding of the actual historical and ongoing situation here. If anything the English treted the Irish in the same way that they treated all foreign cultures that they maanged to colonise - there was nothing particularly special about the treatment meted out to the Irish compared to other subjugated peoples. Certainly the Potato Famine accentuated this treatment, but it wasn't because they were Irish that they were treated in this way: just that they were another colonial holding and as has been the case throughout most of the History of the British Empire, the lives of the natives were set at little value.

As another sidenote: the paragraph above is further problematised by the fact that Ireland did actually become part of the UK, in contrast to other colonial holdings which weren't granted this status.

Commando2 I never EVER thought I would agree with you on something. You have no idea how many points this thread scores you in my book.

Some were transported against their will while others were presented with the offer of a fresh start in the position of landlords.


I'll make it clear here that in no way am I claiming that English hands are clean when it comes to Ireland, but instead I am just pointing out that a black-and-white picture of the Anglo-Saxon English waging genocide on the Celts/the 'Irish race' doesn't really help to come to an understanding of the actual historical and ongoing situation here. If anything the English treted the Irish in the same way that they treated all foreign cultures that they maanged to colonise - there was nothing particularly special about the treatment meted out to the Irish compared to other subjugated peoples. Certainly the Potato Famine accentuated this treatment, but it wasn't because they were Irish that they were treated in this way: just that they were another colonial holding and as has been the case throughout most of the History of the British Empire, the lives of the natives were set at little value.

As another sidenote: the paragraph above is further problematised by the fact that Ireland did actually become part of the UK, in contrast to other colonial holdings which weren't granted this status.

i was going to say...i always found it odd that even when Ireland was in the UK they didnt do much to help in the famine

I thought the Scottish were sent to Northern Ireland during the Clearances following the uprising of 1745. Is this incorrect ?

I've always more or less had a view that one oppressed proletariat was being pitted against another oppressed proletariat and it was a damn shame that they didn't recognize that fact and choose to work together, rather than allowing themselves to be used to their mutual detriment.

(Pehaps, though, that comes of having a Scottish parent and and Irish parent and wanting to reconcile things for very personal motives)

[/b]
i was going to say...i always found it odd that even when Ireland was in the UK they didnt do much to help in the famine

The Irish were still many at that point, and the loss of a few million second-class citizens to starvation and emigration probably wasn't seen as much of a big deal when there were still millions more.

I thought the Scottish were sent to Northern Ireland during the Clearances following the uprising of 1745. Is this incorrect ?

I've always more or less had a view that one oppressed proletariat was being pitted against another oppressed proletariat and it was a damn shame that they didn't recognize that fact and choose to work together, rather than allowing themselves to be used to their mutual detriment.

(Pehaps, though, that comes of having a Scottish parent and and Irish parent and wanting to reconcile things for very personal motives)
it was somewhat before 1745

they 'did work' together as time went on and the Presbyterians began to be legislated against almost as harshly as Catholics - see the United Irishmen for some evidence of that

This is all very well as a theory of race, but fails to note that the rest of the British are also Celts by origin, which kind of puts paid to an idea of genocide of the 'Irish race', no?

the britons were celts then the romans came then the angles and saxons came from germany and vikings from the north. and in gaul tons of other groups. the only true remnants of the celtic people are the irish and scottish

The Irish were still many at that point, and the loss of a few million second-class citizens to starvation and emigration probably wasn't seen as much of a big deal when there were still millions more.
maybe if the north east had been affected worse then the Scots at least might have cared more

Orange parades?

idk i think thats what they are called. i just hear things so i cant say its 100% true but what i hear is they beat them ( the catholics ) into their homes so they can have their military parades

idk i think thats what they are called. i just hear things so i cant say its 100% true but what i hear is they beat them ( the catholics ) into their homes so they can have their military parades
where are they telling you that?

idk i think thats what they are called. i just hear things so i cant say its 100% true but what i hear is they beat them ( the catholics ) into their homes so they can have their military parades
Yeah thats not true...

The happen in August, and just tend to piss some people off. Outside of a few burned cars and roadblocked church, nothing too bad happens.

where are they telling you that?

some NI civil servant

Here is a bit of family lore that perhaps someone in this thread could untangle for me. My mother, whose connections were Northern Ireland, claimed that Ireland did receive some compassionate aid during the famine, and that is came from Germany. She claimed that this caused the Irish to be somewhat less than helpful to the British side during WWI.

I hope this isn't too off topic, it seems somewhat related. Any historical fact to that ?

some NI civil servant
i think its possible you may have missed the northern irish humour.....

the britons were celts then the romans came then the angles and saxons came from germany and vikings from the north. and in gaul tons of other groups. the only true remnants of the celtic people are the irish and scottish

The Romans came in numbers of what 40-50,000? Their primary contribution wasn't one of race, but rather culture.

The Vikings also harrried and invaded Ireland and Scotland, and so they were hardly untouched by their influence - in fact there is probably as much Viking blood in Scotland as there is in England (and there it is primarily concentrated along the North-Eastern coastline).

Evidence for an actual Angle/Saxon invasion and blotting out of the English Celtic bloodlines seems shaky at best: certainly they had a cultural influence and the Angles and Saxons rose to political power and placed the 'natives' in the shade.

As for the Gauls (who were themselves Celts) and miscellaneous others: certainyl England due to its closer proximity to mainland Europe received and contributed to much more admixture of bloodlines with the people of the continent, but to claim that this spread both so far as to wipe out the Celtic heritage of the English but also not far enough to have any real affect on the Welsh, Scots and Irish is to ignore the actual conditions of the time.

my opinion is : my opinion doesnt matter who cares? this is a game its not serious.

The Vikings also harrried and invaded Ireland and Scotland, and so they were hardly untouched by their influence - in fact there is probably as much Viking blood in Scotland as there is in England (and there it is primarily concentrated along the North-Eastern coastline).
and Dublin was a viking town

(unless there was something there first, but im not sure if there was or not)

Yeah thats not true...


Well, no, certainly it has happened in certain areas - such as on the Lower Ormeau Road in '96 and '97 when the primarily Republican streets were sealed off by landrovers and the people who lived there were forced to remain within the police/army cordon until the parades had passed by. IIRC it was '96 when the protestors on the Lower Ormeau who were staging a sit down protest against the Orange parades were baton charged by the police.

However, this is not the normal way of dealing with the issues here: prior to the early 90s and a marked increase in triumphialist display by the Orange Order parades, the parades were accepted begrudgingly by the Republican/Nationalist community (small scale incidents not withstanding), and then during the mid and late 90s thing became a lot more confrontational, however it appears that the Parades' Commission is actually manmaging to reduce some of the tensions on both sides and help the two communities work towards a compromise.

and Dublin was a viking town

(unless there was something there first, but im not sure if there was or not)

I'm quite shaky on the origins of Dublin: the city made a big hoo-haa about its millenium a few years ago, but I got the impression that those familiar with the actual history of the city were less than impressed with the authenticity of Dublin's claim to being 1000 years old.

Has anyone mentioned the Irish trading with the Romans yet?

Here is a bit of family lore that perhaps someone in this thread could untangle for me. My mother, whose connections were Northern Ireland, claimed that Ireland did receive some compassionate aid during the famine, and that is came from Germany. She claimed that this caused the Irish to be somewhat less than helpful to the British side during WWI.

I hope this isn't too off topic, it seems somewhat related. Any historical fact to that ?
I'm not certain about the aid from Germany, but I can guaruntee they were less than helpful to the British during WWI for no other reason than the fact that they hated the British. They helped the Spanish armada in the 16th century because the Spanish were coming to attack England. Thats why I have dark hair actually...

The Romans came in numbers of what 40-50,000? Their primary contribution wasn't one of race, but rather culture.

The Vikings also harrried and invaded Ireland and Scotland, and so they were hardly untouched by their influence - in fact there is probably as much Viking blood in Scotland as there is in England (and there it is primarily concentrated along the North-Eastern coastline).

Evidence for an actual Angle/Saxon invasion and blotting out of the English Celtic bloodlines seems shaky at best: certainly they had a cultural influence and the Angles and Saxons rose to political power and placed the 'natives' in the shade.

As for the Gauls (who were themselves Celts) and miscellaneous others: certainyl England due to its closer proximity to mainland Europe received and contributed to much more admixture of bloodlines with the people of the continent, but to claim that this spread both so far as to wipe out the Celtic heritage of the English but also not far enough to have any real affect on the Welsh, Scots and Irish is to ignore the actual conditions of the time.

im just saying that they are less celtic in the sence they are built up of more groups and dont really call them selves celts as the irish and scottish do

Here is a bit of family lore that perhaps someone in this thread could untangle for me. My mother, whose connections were Northern Ireland, claimed that Ireland did receive some compassionate aid during the famine, and that is came from Germany. She claimed that this caused the Irish to be somewhat less than helpful to the British side during WWI.

I hope this isn't too off topic, it seems somewhat related. Any historical fact to that ?

Actually help came from Germany dureing the Easter Upriseing of 1916, I don't know of any such help in the Famine, and I've done extensive study of that era. Most compassionate help came from the United States and the Quakers did a lot of famine relief. Both American Quakers and Quakers in England and in Ireland itself. Germany had a failiure of the potato crop, Sweden had a failure of this crop, so did France.

viking and celtic culture arnt too far apart. so i hear when both were pagan their religons forbid them to write. and they are warlike. supposedly celtic culture spread from the british isles to iberia , northern italy and as far east as the balkans and black sea.

not that this was united

Actually help came from Germany dureing the Easter Upriseing of 1916, I don't know of any such help in the Famine, and I've done extensive study of that era. Most compassionate help came from the United States and the Quakers did a lot of famine relief. Both American Quakers and Quakers in England and in Ireland itself. Germany had a failiure of the potato crop, Sweden had a failure of this crop, so did France.

the germans tried to help them in the easter uprising , but the supply ship or boat or whatever didnt make it.

viking and celtic culture arnt too far apart. so i hear when both were pagan their religons forbid them to write.

So where do the Ogham and Futhark alphabets come from then?

yes but here is the big question , what is the point of this thread?

So where do the Ogham and Futhark alphabets come from then?

that always confused me

but the religions forbid them to write , this i know. they told great virbal stories

In 1841 the Choctaw Indians in Mississippi were forced from their homelands to journey many hundreds of miles cross-country to Oklahoma. Many of them perished on what became known as the 'Trail of Tears'.
In 1847, this same impoverished group of Choctaw Indians, upon hearing of a great famine in a far off distant land or Ireland, scraped together $170 and donated it for famine relief.
I thank them for their generosity and also for their example, in not letting hardship harden their hearts.
Go raibh maith agaibh a chairde.

Oh, i do get so sick of this!

Yes we tried to invade Ireland. But England had by that time also been invaded by the french, romans and vikings. We werent even Celts anymore by the time we're were all into inavding people!

Not only that, a resonable compromise was reached, Northern Ireland and Ireland. Those who didnt want to be part of the UK were free to move south.

Then consider what we did to scotland (i'm half scots). did you see them bombing england? NO. Have they got what they want now (a local parliment)?. YES!

The Irish need to get over themselves. I didnt do you any wrong. I didnt try to invade you. You are arguing a war that is ancient.

Are the english really pissed off with the saxons/french/romans still?

Get over it, shit happened!

The English came at the same time as the Saxons, it would be the Britons who might be mad at the Anglo-Saxons. ;)

Not to mention the 'French' were Norman Vikings who had invaded Frankish lands.

As I read the first post, two words came to mind: nut job. Britain was the best thing that ever happened to Ireland.

As I read the first post, two words came to mind: nut job. Britain was the best thing that ever happened to Ireland.

Eh? How do you square that with your Catholic belief?

As I read the first post, two words came to mind: nut job. Britain was the best thing that ever happened to Ireland. Care to back that up?
The religion of the Irish Celts forbade the druids and historians to write down their knowledge, for that would reduce their power, as it could be viewed by literate non-druids, and it would take much of the training and discipline out of becoming a druid. Also, ogham script was not widely used, the latin alphabet was adopted almost as quickly as it came.
On the subject of King Charles: He was only carrying on the long standing tradition of taking away land from the Irish, it all started with the Pale, not him. Anyway, it was an Englishman who commited some of the most horrid atrocities in history against Ireland, Oliver Cromwell.

As I read the first post, two words came to mind: nut job. Britain was the best thing that ever happened to Ireland.
I see the nut job, only he isn't Commando 3, even though I would usually agree with that.

As I read the first post, two words came to mind: nut job. Britain was the best thing that ever happened to Ireland.
Yeah I don't suggest you start preaching that in Dublin.

...or pretty much anywhere in Ireland.

So what about people like me then?

I'm 100% Irish by blood, 3rd Generation on my Fathers side 4th on my Mothers side. Both sides of our family moved to Liverpool after the potato famine. Are we all included in that invisible cadré of oppressive englishmen? I consider myself English, and the fact is, is that as a nation we no longer do anything to "oppress" northern ireland.

Northern Ireland does not want to become part of Eire, referendums have been held, and our survey said no. A regional assembly was granted to Northern Ireland to give them some semblance of their own government; This was later suspended in 2002 due to involved parties not meeting their comittments.

Catholics too are guilty of horrendous violence against protestants and protestant areas in Ulster, you CANNOT say that catholics there are any less or more responsible for violence than protestants. The recent example of the man killed by the IRA whose family demanded justice. The response from the IRA? We won't hand him over, but we'll shoot the guy that did it if you like?

Taking sides in this argument is pointless, and doing so merely shows a preference for one group or the other. There are no angels in the conflicts in Ulster. I don't care what happened 400 years ago in Ireland, it happened, and nothing we do today will change that. What CAN be changed is the here and now, if that's what people want. But hey back to that referendum again, the majority of ulster wants to remain separate from Eire, so the point is moot.

Grow up kiddies, and start living for today.

So what about people like me then?

I'm 100% Irish by blood, 3rd Generation on my Fathers side 4th on my Mothers side. Both sides of our family moved to Liverpool after the potato famine. Are we all included in that invisible cadré of oppressive englishmen? I consider myself English, and the fact is, is that as a nation we no longer do anything to "oppress" northern ireland.

Northern Ireland does not want to become part of Eire, referendums have been held, and our survey said no. A regional assembly was granted to Northern Ireland to give them some semblance of their own government; This was later suspended in 2002 due to involved parties not meeting their comittments.

Catholics too are guilty of horrendous violence against protestants and protestant areas in Ulster, you CANNOT say that catholics there are any less or more responsible for violence than protestants. The recent example of the man killed by the IRA whose family demanded justice. The response from the IRA? We won't hand him over, but we'll shoot the guy that did it if you like?

Taking sides in this argument is pointless, and doing so merely shows a preference for one group or the other. There are no angels in the conflicts in Ulster. I don't care what happened 400 years ago in Ireland, it happened, and nothing we do today will change that. What CAN be changed is the here and now, if that's what people want. But hey back to that referendum again, the majority of ulster wants to remain separate from Eire, so the point is moot.

Grow up kiddies, and start living for today.

Although I agree with almost everything he has said, I would say that if you believe in Democracy you ultimately have to side with Ulster/The UK. The people of Ulster don't want to become a part of EIRE, yet certain factions in EIRE want to reunite Ireland. Surely this is no better than the English annexing Ireland those hundreds of years ago? Ulster doesn't want it, and the Unionists have been exceedingly passive for a good long time now. It's time for the IRA to catch up, and EIRE to wake up.

Stuff.
You make alot of good points, and are right, but you come off like a jerk and make me not want to agree with you. Try not being so condescending maybe?

Sorry Hamolopolis, I've grown up with this kind of pointless bickering and I'm just tired of people arguing over something that happened before they were even a twinkle in their parents eyes.

If people stopped dwelling on the past and put as much energy into living in the present, and creating a better future, the world would be a much better place.

Commando3']-The English introduced Penal Laws in 1695 to persecute the Catholic Church and its followers. These laws banned Catholics from public office, the legal profession and military. They were not permitted to vote, teach or maintain Catholic schools, or purchase land. Church services were held in secret.

These same laws were applied just as vigourously throughout the rest of the United Kingodm, not just Ireland. Due to the fact that Catholic leaders and their supporters had been trying to subvert the Protestant constitution since the days of Queen Elizabeth. It was an unfortunate neccessity in order to protect the Protestant religion from the outside influences of hostile Catholic countries like France and Spain.

Commando3']
In 1845, Ireland suffered the Great Famine, caused by crop failures over successive years. Faced with starvation and abject poverty about 1.5 million Irish fled to other lands, namely America, while another million starved to death in Ireland, or died on the "coffin ships" headed to America. During the famine years England continued to import meat from Ireland, while the Irish starved. Many Irish have never forgiven England for failing to intervene and argue that the English policy amounted to genocide against the Irish race. By 1900, Irish Catholics owned only about 7% of their homeland and were doomed to their destiny as an underclass.

I really hate it when Irish nationalists use the term genocide to describe the potatoe famine. Firstly a genocide is the malicious destruction of an entire race, which was certainly not the British intention. Powerful as the British were, they could not have stopped the potato blight from happening. The fact that potatoes were such a huge proportion of the Irish diet is the fact that is mostly to blame in this case.
At this time, the British idea to Empire was the Macaulay liberal dream, an Empire that would eventually become independent. The leading statesman in control of Ireland (G. Trevelyan) was a firm believer in this policy and he believed that Ireland had to sort out its own problems in order to be able to achieve independence. On this basis he stopped most government supported aid efforts - I should note that the previous Conservative Prime Minister (Sir Robert Peel) had actually began the process of large scale aid efforts before his government were destroyed over the issue of protectionism. Obviously the thinking of Trevelyan was wrong and an incredible mistake but to describe his intentions as an act of genocide is pure hyperbole. It must also be understood that the scale of the famine was never trully understood by the British government until it was too late. None of this excuses the Empire's darkest hour but it does make it more understandable.
To say that there was no help from Britain is also a hyperbole. Many private efforts were launched to supply the Irish poor with corn and the British government did send out work teams who paid the Irish poor to make roads so they could use that money to buy from markets. Alas such attempts were ineffective when considering the scale of the problem.

Commando3']
-Belfast events echoed the conflict in Derry. Protestant mobs attacked Catholic communities and hundreds of homes were burned and destroyed. Overwhelmed, the police sided with their Protestant brethren and the IRA resurfaced to defend Catholics.

As bad as the police may have been, I really dont think they can be compared to the terrorist organisation that is the IRA. And I believe they were Irish Protestants, probably most of whom had been living in Ireland since the Elizabethan and Jamesian attempts at colonisation. I think you should find fault with religious differences here more than the British in particular.

Commando3']
-Civil rights demonstrations continued and on "Bloody Sunday", January 30, 1972, the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a peaceful demonstration in Derry, killing 13 unarmed Catholics.

And of course the IRA haven't committed heinous crimes on the behalf of Irish Catholics?

Commando3']
-In some parades the bands representing Loyalist paramilitary groups play sectarian tunes as they intentionally pass through Catholic neighborhoods. Naturally, residents object to these triumphalist displays, just as black communities would object to Ku Klux Klan parades, or Jews would object to Nazi parades through their communities. Beleaguered Catholics have had enough and refuse to consent to such parades.

I believe the Irish Protestants have a right to display their views just as much as Irish Catholics have, although it is obvious the Protestants are trying to provoke the Catholics and should be stopped from marching through Catholic areas.

Commando3']
-Over the years over 1 million Irish have been murdered/tortured to death by English

Really thats poor. What do you mean 'over the years'? The last 10 years? The last 100 years? The last 1000 years? I am sure a substantial number of British people have been killed by Irish rebellions and Irish terrorists 'over the years'. Really such a vague comment is quite pointless.

In the end the British have done some damage to Ireland that is true but a great deal of it is over exaggerated by Irish nationalists - calling the poor reaction to the Potato Famine 'genocide' for example. The Irish have never exactly been blameless in the long chain of violence that has decimated their country as it is often their attempts at violent rebellion that forced authoritian reaction from the British authorities.

it is often their attempts at violent rebellion that forced authoritian reaction from the British authorities. I believ it is far more likely that it was violent, authoritarian action from British authorities that forced the irish to rebel.

I believ it is far more likely that it was violent, authoritarian action from British authorities that forced the irish to rebel.

And therein the chain of violence continued

Very surprised to find such articulate and interesting debate in what looked like baiting from the initial post in this thread.

New to this, but impressed. You're a sparky lot....

Being from the south of Ireland, my own feeling is that wrong was undoubtedly done by Britian in Ireland....as it was by Belgium in the Congo etc etc But forgiveness and forward thinking are essential to progress for any Nation. anyone interested in a quasi-historical take on the Irish famine and the complexities of anglo-irish relations might do well to read John O Connor's 'Star of the Sea'

With regard to a united ireland- it simply cannot and should not happen without the consent of the majority of people on the entire island- and has been defeated at the ballot box in the north.

We're only just recently squeezing out from under the restrictions of an oppressive and pervasive Catholisism in the south of Ireland that was rigid, uncaring and extremely entwined in state business and in the constitution. Extremism and bigotry are always harmful and it behoves each generation to improve on the understanding of the previous ones.

And I'm off to have some real fun, because what we learn from history is that history teaches us nothing.......

In 1841 the Choctaw Indians in Mississippi were forced from their homelands to journey many hundreds of miles cross-country to Oklahoma. Many of them perished on what became known as the 'Trail of Tears'.
In 1847, this same impoverished group of Choctaw Indians, upon hearing of a great famine in a far off distant land or Ireland, scraped together $170 and donated it for famine relief.
I thank them for their generosity and also for their example, in not letting hardship harden their hearts.
Go raibh maith agaibh a chairde.

Andrew Jackson: the man primarily behind the Trail of Tears was of Scots-Irish stock... irony?

And I'm off to have some real fun, because what we learn from history is that history teaches us nothing.......

"A generation that does not learn its past has no future"

I'm 100% Irish by blood, 3rd Generation on my Fathers side 4th on my Mothers side. Both sides of our family moved to Liverpool after the potato famine.

In order to just show that the famine isn't really so long ago here i'll just say that my great-grandfather was a teenager when it happened...

"A generation that does not learn its past has no future"

"Those who know history are doomed to be dragged kicking and screaming back to the dark ages by those that don't"

In order to just show that the famine isn't really so long ago here i'll just say that my great-grandfather was a teenager when it happened...

Puts it in perspective.

Heh, I remember I knew someone (my age) who claimed his dad lived through it.

After reading through this thread, I have concluded that many people are not aware of Irish History. For those that are not I suggest an excellent book that is a survey of Irish History from prehistoric times to the present. “The Course of Irish History”, Fourth Edition. Each chapter in the book is written by an Irish historian who specializes in the period covered in the chapter.

As to the Celtic nations, there were seven Celtic nations and England was not one of them.

Why don't you just do the world a great deed and shoot yourself in that empty head of yours. I'm dead serious too by the way.

Hehe lol. Good one. I was kinda joking, though. No offence meant. You're from Northern Ireland? I don't really take forums serously.