NationStates Jolt Archive

Way to try and twist the question, which explicitly stated that one could be saved and the other couldn't.

Obviously, the assumption you stated above is the one that most people would make - and most often the right one. However, that doesn't make it absolute.

Your right it doesn't but a child screaming has a better shot at life than one that isn't breathing and no heartbeat and pulse.

Are you often in the habit of asking for forgiveness when you have done nothing wrong?

I do wrong somewhere each and everyday. Its called being human.

What kind of technicality does that?

Ten month's estrangement. Had Otto had his accident a week sooner, she would have been in a position to act on his wishes. Unfortunately, Otto's parents are fervently Catholic, and think that praying Rosaries will somehow placate God into giving them back their son.

Wishful thinking taken to a grotesque level. And not just an abstract concept discussed at the water-cooler, either. Real, upfront, and personal. Stupid, too - but there's all of you sensitive Christians who might be offended if I call Otto's parents what they are, so forget I used the 'S-word' in conjunction with Christians.

Now I go to dinner.

Later.

so what if we put the tube back in?

Why?

You don't care. You repeat this garbage anyway.

You couldn't prove it before, but demanded others prove it false. (Which is what you are trying to do again?)

We obliged that time. Apparently you are allergic to facts.

This time you provide some proof or shut the hell up.

PROVE IT!!!

so what if we put the tube back in?

Hard to do when the person's dead.

What If we Just put the tube back anyway?

ok ready? here's what it breaks down to: 1 side of the argument is that teri could have gotten better and that they had the means to keep her alive and life is the most precious thing and "you're just gonna kill her?". the other side is that terri was barely alive and she wouldn't want to live like this so "let's just let her go, it's not killing her" and both sides are gonna stick to their guns. Personally, i think that the parents are selfish people that only kept her to alive to save themselves from losing their daughter by placing her in a faux life so that they could lie to themselves and act like their daughter was still alive and still loved them, and teri's husband just wants all the false hope to be given up, and let teri enter whatever world exists after this one. :) good?

No, just eight years of work by her husband, the turning down of great ammounts of money on his part and a huge protracted legal battle.

I would say that the great personal hardship her husband went through in order to see that this wish was carried out speaks volumes about his credibility.


YOU MIGHT ALSO WANT TO LOOK UP THE FINDINGS AND RULINGS OF THE THIRTY+ JUDGES WHO RULED ON THIS EXACT ISSUE.

You might want to use a smaller font.
So we are to assume that because her husband wished it, she wished it. Why do you place so much faith in this man? You assume he was correct that she wanted to die. I assume on the side of wanting to live.
One more little time, I don't give a damn what one or thirty jusdges said about this case. Their opinions are completely, 100% irrelevent to me. I see absolutely nothing magical or pure about the opinions of a judge.

Now see, a small font can be used also. No use screaming at people.

how is a persons life in the physical world worth any more than a persons life in the spiritual world? - question posed to you religious peeps.

Your right it doesn't but a child screaming has a better shot at life than one that isn't breathing and no heartbeat and pulse.

(a) I never said that there was actually no pulse.
(b) You are only statistically right. There are many situations in which you would be absolutely wrong.

The brain has regenerative properties in some cases. What if her autopsy shows that she was aware and would have improved with rehabilitation? What if it also shows that her brain damage was caused by trauma and not from coronary arrest?




Listen she got into this postision herself. If she wasn't starving her self so she could be skinny she wouldn't have had the heartattack in the frist place. when she was prnounced brain dead the frist time the family should have just donated her organs to people who needed them and could live a healthly "normal" life. Their are still a lot of unanswered questions on the whole subject. I just think the parents were having a hard time letting go of thier daughter and eventully became obessive over the whole thing when Mike requested to take the fedding tube out. Now to address the issuse of how it became such a big issue is because of her father when he posted the viedo clips on the internet with his side of the story. And I will amitt that I agree with the courts desion to not get anymore involed than they all ready had it is not their decision to tell us wether we should live or die. If I was Terri I would had wanted the tube taken out long ago. I would never have wanted to lived for 15 years in a veggie like state.

What If we Just put the tube back anyway?

lol

yer right - she would basically be just as she was before but with less movement and sounds.

(a) I never said that there was actually no pulse.
(b) You are only statistically right. There are many situations in which you would be absolutely wrong.

a)I had a health class. If you ain't got a heartbeat, you ain't got a pulse.
b)Probably.

You might want to use a smaller font.
So we are to assume that because her husband wished it, she wished it. Why do you place so much faith in this man? You assume he was correct that she wanted to die. I assume on the side of wanting to live.
One more little time, I don't give a damn what one or thirty jusdges said about this case. Their opinions are completely, 100% irrelevent to me. I see absolutely nothing magical or pure about the opinions of a judge.

Now see, a small font can be used also. No use screaming at people.


If we cant hold yor head down and scream through a megaphone into your ear to make you reasonable then a huge font is really the last best hope.


Two big reasons that we should believe mr schiavo was telling the truth:
A) The ovewhelming supermajority of people do not want to be kept alive for decades as a vegetable.

B) He gained nothing from his crusade to carry this out, he turned down millions of dollars to give up his fight. He made great self sacrafice.


It takes a special kind of maggot in the brain to see the world through "judges are all evil liars" and "michael schiavo is an evil liar" glasses.

I pity you.

about this "the feeding tube was the only assisted living teri needed. and you feed babies don't you? you don't kill babies right?"....teri wasn't a baby she was a woman that died and had no hope of coming back. "she might have gotten better"....no she died fifteen years ago...accept it

a)I had a health class. If you ain't got a heartbeat, you ain't got a pulse.

The fact that you can't find a pulse does not mean that it is not there, especially in a stressful situation.

b)Probably.

No, definitely.

My topic was proposed to explore the possible reactions and changes that such autopsy findings might lead to. It may not be likely, but it is possible. What would the lasting effects of such a finding be? If it is any easier to deal with, take the Schiavos and Schindlers out of it, and think of it in terms of a legal and moral issue based on a pretend scenerio.

<sigh>

It is a "legal and moral issue" that has been decided over and over and over again for 8 years by every court from the Florida trial court to the Florida Supreme Court to a US District Court to the US Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit to the US Supreme Court.

Its done. Its been looked into. Its been decided.

You continue to raise "questions" only because you haven't read a single scap of the actual court rulings dealing with all of this.

He's refused therapy,

Not true. Evidence has been posted to the contrary.

antibiotics for unrinary infections,

Not true. Evidence has been posted to the contrary.

visitation at odd times,

Not true. Evidence has been posted to the contrary.

her family's presence at the moment of her death,

They were present 10 minutes before she died.

He was present when she died.

Because of their vitriol, the parents cannot visit her at the same time he does. More than reasonable.

Why wouldn't people have concerns as to his motives?

Because there is not a scrap of evidence of any of this crap.

It is pure hate fueled by ideology.

I hate to think she went through 2 weeks of dying aware of her deteriorating condition.

Then don't. She didn't. It is medically impossible.

I hate to think of the repercussions that might follow a finding of brain trauma.

WTF are you talking about?

Rumors of abuse were investigated. They are not true. Stop spreading libel.

Her husband has 2 children who need a father with them...not spending all of his time in court.

Then you and people like you should shut up and leave the poor man alone.

You have tried to maintain a facade of reasonableness and compassion.

But you have shown no compassion to Mr. Schiavo and his family.

And you have continued to spread unreasonable falsehoods.

You need to look to your own heart.

about this "the feeding tube was the only assisted living teri needed. and you feed babies don't you? you don't kill babies right?"....teri wasn't a baby she was a woman that died and had no hope of coming back. "she might have gotten better"....no she died fifteen years ago...accept it





Don't think I could have said it better myself

If we cant hold yor head down and scream through a megaphone into your ear to make you reasonable then a huge font is really the last best hope.


Two big reasons that we should believe mr schiavo was telling the truth:
A) The ovewhelming supermajority of people do not want to be kept alive for decades as a vegetable.

B) He gained nothing from his crusade to carry this out, he turned down millions of dollars to give up his fight. He made great self sacrafice.


It takes a special kind of maggot in the brain to see the world through "judges are all evil liars" and "michael schiavo is an evil liar" glasses.

I pity you.

i agree, but that was pretty harsh. people are too eager to buy into this conspiracy theory that mr. schivao was an evil money collecting killer. he just wanted to let terri die with some dignity

The fact that you can't find a pulse does not mean that it is not there, especially in a stressful situation.

I know precisely where to check a pulse and can do it in a stressful sitution. I know what a pulse feels like and if I don't find it, I'm moving on.

No, definitely.

Always exceptions to the rules.

If we cant hold yor head down and scream through a megaphone into your ear to make you reasonable then a huge font is really the last best hope.


Two big reasons that we should believe mr schiavo was telling the truth:
A) The ovewhelming supermajority of people do not want to be kept alive for decades as a vegetable.

B) He gained nothing from his crusade to carry this out, he turned down millions of dollars to give up his fight. He made great self sacrafice.


It takes a special kind of maggot in the brain to see the world through "judges are all evil liars" and "michael schiavo is an evil liar" glasses.

I pity you.

Pity whomever you want. I see no reason for you to be so insulting in your behavior.
Was there a paper, signed by Mrs. Schiavo saying she wished to have her life ended? If there was not then you have to place your faith in the opinion of the husband. You are the one who makes assumptions, even if they have a high level of creedence, about the wishes of the woman.
I do not think Mr. Schiavo was an evil liar, I don't think the judges were evil liars. I think they were wrong. Why is it that people like you assume that if someone thinks someone else is wrong they also think they are evil? Could it be because people like you think those who disagree with you are evil?

The brain has regenerative properties in some cases.

The brain itself does not have regenerative properities; it's the only "organ" in the human body that cannot heal itself with time. Outside treatment, yes, can regenerate certain parts of the brain, but once you lose brain cells or they become irrepairable, they can not be reactivated even by modern medicine.

i agree, but that was pretty harsh. people are too eager to buy into this conspiracy theory that mr. schivao was an evil money collecting killer. he just wanted to let terri die with some dignity

You might have noticed that New Granada has been fighting the lies villifying Mr. Schiavo for many days now.

Many of these people are repeating the same libel that has been proven false over and over again.

They don't care. It gets in the way of their self-righteous hate.

So, we are getting a tad frustrated and testy.

Pity whomever you want. I see no reason for you to be so insulting in your behavior.
Was there a paper, signed by Mrs. Schiavo saying she wished to have her life ended? If there was not then you have to place your faith in the opinion of the husband. You are the one who makes assumptions, even if they have a high level of creedence, about the wishes of the woman.
I do not think Mr. Schiavo was an evil liar, I don't think the judges were evil liars. I think they were wrong. Why is it that people like you assume that if someone thinks someone else is wrong they also think they are evil? Could it be because people like you think those who disagree with you are evil?


And what, pray tell, leads you to think that Mr Schiavo and the courts involved were wrong?

And what, pray tell, leads you to think that Mr Schiavo and the courts involved were wrong?

Because, as far as I know, there was no signed document in which she said she wished to be terminated if she was in a vegetative state. Is there such a document? If there is, I will completely reverse my opinion because I do believe people have a right to die if they state that the wish to.
I myself do not wish to be plugged into some machine if I am brain dead. I intend to have such documents made if it is possible.
Is it possible? Can such documents be made and did she make one?

Pity whomever you want. I see no reason for you to be so insulting in your behavior.
Was there a paper, signed by Mrs. Schiavo saying she wished to have her life ended? If there was not then you have to place your faith in the opinion of the husband. You are the one who makes assumptions, even if they have a high level of creedence, about the wishes of the woman.
I do not think Mr. Schiavo was an evil liar, I don't think the judges were evil liars. I think they were wrong. Why is it that people like you assume that if someone thinks someone else is wrong they also think they are evil? Could it be because people like you think those who disagree with you are evil?

ok man seriously, think of yourself in that situation. you collapsed. you were braindead. gone. then they bring you back. you're "aware of your surroundings" but you have very little brain function. you don't know what's going on. you're not coming back. you're gonna stay like that till you die. who wants that?

Because, as far as I know, there was no signed document in which she said she wished to be terminated if she was in a vegetative state. Is there such a document? If there is, I will completely reverse my opinion because I do believe people have a right to die if they state that the wish to.
I myself do not wish to be plugged into some machine if I am brain dead. I intend to have such documents made if it is possible.
Is it possible? Can such documents be made and did she make one?


The courts ruled that ms schiavo would have not wanted to be kept alive artificially as she was being.

You claim that they were mistaken in their ruling. You claim that ms schiavo wanted to be kept as a vegetable.

So, why do you make this claim? What substantiates your assertion that the judges were incorrect in their ruling and would have been correct if they had ruled mrs schiavo wanted to be kept as a vegetable?

Lack of a living written will does not doom somone to decades as a vegetable.

ok man seriously, think of yourself in that situation. you collapsed. you were braindead. gone. then they bring you back. you're "aware of your surroundings" but you have very little brain function. you don't know what's going on. you're not coming back. you're gonna stay like that till you die. who wants that?


She wasnt aware of anything, her brain was physically gone.

Because, as far as I know, there was no signed document in which she said she wished to be terminated if she was in a vegetative state. Is there such a document? If there is, I will completely reverse my opinion because I do believe people have a right to die if they state that the wish to.
I myself do not wish to be plugged into some machine if I am brain dead. I intend to have such documents made if it is possible.
Is it possible? Can such documents be made and did she make one?

Why should he have a document? Because it's the law? Are not the word or her husband and friends enough? Why would those that love her lie about something like this? There is no reasonable excuse to believe that as far as I can tell.

Pity whomever you want. I see no reason for you to be so insulting in your behavior.
Was there a paper, signed by Mrs. Schiavo saying she wished to have her life ended? If there was not then you have to place your faith in the opinion of the husband. You are the one who makes assumptions, even if they have a high level of creedence, about the wishes of the woman.
I do not think Mr. Schiavo was an evil liar, I don't think the judges were evil liars. I think they were wrong. Why is it that people like you assume that if someone thinks someone else is wrong they also think they are evil? Could it be because people like you think those who disagree with you are evil?

No reason to be insulting?

It is a little late to act all hurt and innocent.

You are the one that started this dialogue with "Hey deathlovers ... you got your petul[a]nt way" and libeled Mrs. Schiavo's "un-loving husband."

Either Mr. Schiavo -- and the other witnesses that testified under oath -- are liars or Mrs. Schiavo did wish to refuse forcible treatment. Which is it?

And, sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I'll take the judgment of the dozens of judges that have actually looked at the evidence over your uninformed opinion.

That you think you know better than Mrs. Schiavo's husband and all of those judge and that you call those of us that do not share your hatred "deathlovers" more than justifies our contempt.

if you need a document to say "don't keep me alive if i'm so out of it i can't even think straight" i think that just about everysingle person in the world is gonna need one....maybe that should just be assumed in extreme cases such as terri's.

No reason to be insulting?

It is a little late to act all hurt and innocent.

You are the one that started this dialogue with "Hey deathlovers ... you got your petul[a]nt way" and libeled Mrs. Schiavo's "un-loving husband."

Either Mr. Schiavo -- and the other witnesses that testified under oath -- are liars or Mrs. Schiavo did wish to refuse forcible treatment. Which is it?

And, sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I'll take the judgment of the dozens of judges that have actually looked at the evidence over your uninformed opinion.

That you think you know better than Mrs. Schiavo's husband and all of those judge and that you call those of us that do not share your hatred "deathlovers" more than justifies our contempt.
......beasted

No reason to be insulting?

It is a little late to act all hurt and innocent.

You are the one that started this dialogue with "Hey deathlovers ... you got your petul[a]nt way" and libeled Mrs. Schiavo's "un-loving husband."

Either Mr. Schiavo -- and the other witnesses that testified under oath -- are liars or Mrs. Schiavo did wish to refuse forcible treatment. Which is it?

And, sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I'll take the judgment of the dozens of judges that have actually looked at the evidence over your uninformed opinion.

That you think you know better than Mrs. Schiavo's husband and all of those judge and that you call those of us that do not share your hatred "deathlovers" more than justifies our contempt.

You know, you are right about the insulting thing. I did start with the deathlovers comment and I regret it and apologize to anyone offended. I always try to be civil and I let my passion get the best of me. Sorry, truly.

The image of Ms. Schiavo starving and dying of thirst simply unnerves me and brings out emotional turmoil in me. There should have been a way to let her die more quickly if her wishes were really to do so.

I know precisely where to check a pulse and can do it in a stressful sitution. I know what a pulse feels like and if I don't find it, I'm moving on.

Which doesn't change the fact that it may be there, whether you find it or not. In some cases, a person's pulse has slowed down to the point that they are declared dead by a competent mortician. However, they have recovered.

Which doesn't change the fact that it may be there, whether you find it or not. In some cases, a person's pulse has slowed down to the point that they are declared dead by a competent mortician. However, they have recovered.

Its rare. I have been trained though to find a pulse in a stressful situation including a plane crash.

Was there a paper, signed by Mrs. Schiavo saying she wished to have her life ended? If there was not then you have to place your faith in the opinion of the husband. You are the one who makes assumptions, even if they have a high level of creedence, about the wishes of the woman.

There was a paper, signed by Mrs. Sciavo, saying that she wished Micheal Schiavo to be her next-of-kin. Guess who gets to make medical decisions when a person cannot do it for themselves - their next-of-kin. She obviously trusted him to make the right decision and there is really no evidence that he did not, while there is quite a bit that he did.

You know, you are right about the insulting thing. I did start with the deathlovers comment and I regret it and apologize to anyone offended. I always try to be civil and I let my passion get the best of me. Sorry, truly.

The image of Ms. Schiavo starving and dying of thirst simply unnerves me and brings out emotional turmoil in me. There should have been a way to let her die more quickly if her wishes were really to do so.
ok i could see that annoying you, but you gotta get it straight that she was barely alive. she didn't feel anything they had her on drugs and she was braindamaged on top of that. some people say that assisted suicide would have been a better way to go (quicker), removing the feeding tube avoided legal issues...they're both pretty sick (i think that removing the feeding tube seems more peaceful, no lethal injections or anything)....but it had to be done

Its rare. I have been trained though to find a pulse in a stressful situation including a plane crash.

Guess how rare it would be for doctors all over the country to each come to the same conclusion and each be wrong?

Guess how rare it would be for doctors all over the country to each come to the same conclusion and each be wrong?

It is rare but it does happen. We'll know more in a few weeks hopefully when the autopsy is done.

It is rare but it does happen. We'll know more in a few weeks hopefully when the autopsy is done.
i don't think there's going to be one, i'll look it up

It is rare but it does happen. We'll know more in a few weeks hopefully when the autopsy is done.

For the sake of curiousity; an example if you will.....

You know, you are right about the insulting thing. I did start with the deathlovers comment and I regret it and apologize to anyone offended. I always try to be civil and I let my passion get the best of me. Sorry, truly.

The image of Ms. Schiavo starving and dying of thirst simply unnerves me and brings out emotional turmoil in me. There should have been a way to let her die more quickly if her wishes were really to do so.

Thank you. And I am sorry for insulting you.

I will try to reel in the vitriol in the future.

It is difficult, as I and others have been insulted on this topic for many days now. (And Mr. Schiavo has been accused of everything short of assassinating JFK and being the mastermind behind the Holocaust.)

But that is an explanation not an excuse.

ohhh there's gonna be one http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/1424347.html this says in 24 hours

It is rare but it does happen. We'll know more in a few weeks hopefully when the autopsy is done.

Prove it, sparky.

Or "PROVE IT!" if that is clearer.

Give one example of someone in a similar medical condition with a similar diagnosis that has recovered.

For the sake of curiousity; an example if you will.....

Couple of doctors thought my Grandmother had lupus. After another test, another doctor thought it was Autoimmune Hepititus. It took a trip to UPMC Montefor(Sp?) to prove it!

A couple of weeks later, she died. That would be a year ago this May.

ok i could see that annoying you, but you gotta get it straight that she was barely alive. she didn't feel anything they had her on drugs and she was braindamaged on top of that. some people say that assisted suicide would have been a better way to go (quicker), removing the feeding tube avoided legal issues...they're both pretty sick (i think that removing the feeding tube seems more peaceful, no lethal injections or anything)....but it had to be done

Our level of medical technology has created such wonderful things and then at the same time created such nasty situations. If she had signed a paper, as a couple of posts above this one said, then I cannot oppose what happened.
I am still gonna be depressed about it for awhile. I am haunted when things like this happen. People emotionally torn, dying, families broken. I talked to a shrink once (interesting gal) and she said I was incredibly empathetic, that I felt for other people a lot more than the average person.
It tends to bring out quick and strong emotional reactions from me when faced with situations like this.

Prove it, sparky.

Or "PROVE IT!" if that is clearer.

Give one example of someone in a similar medical condition with a similar diagnosis that has recovered.

I didn't say recover did I? Nope I didn't!

I said that doctors have been wrong before.

Couple of doctors thought my Grandmother had lupus. After another test, another doctor thought it was Autoimmune Hepititus. It took a trip to UPMC Montefor(Sp?) to prove it!

A couple of weeks later, she died. That would be a year ago this May.

So that's a fraction of the number of doctors who treated/examined Mrs. Schiavo - making it even *less* likely that they would be wrong in this case.

If your grandmother had been examined by 5 more doctors, most of them experts in the field, chances are you would have had a clear concensus on her diagnosis.

My condolences on her death.

Our level of medical technology has created such wonderful things and then at the same time created such nasty situations. If she had signed a paper, as a couple of posts above this one said, then I cannot oppose what happened.
I am still gonna be depressed about it for awhile. I am haunted when things like this happen. People emotionally torn, dying, families broken. I talked to a shrink once (interesting gal) and she said I was incredibly empathetic, that I felt for other people a lot more than the average person.
It tends to bring out quick and strong emotional reactions from me when faced with situations like this.
.....ummmm ok (creepy)

.....ummmm ok (creepy)

creepy? aw shucks.

aw shucks? creepy.

So that's a fraction of the number of doctors who treated/examined Mrs. Schiavo - making it even *less* likely that they would be wrong in this case.

Less likely but still possible! Nothing can be ruled out right now. Not saying they are wrong but a slight possibility does need to be left open. At least till this autopsy is done.

If your grandmother had been examined by 5 more doctors, most of them experts in the field, chances are you would have had a clear concensus on her diagnosis.

Even they ran test on test to double check and even then were they surprised that it was autoimmune hepititus. It is rare.

My condolences on her death.

Thank you. It was extremely hard on my mom and her sisters! Even on me it was hard. I still choke up thinking about it.

really all the opposing arguements rely on very very very very very rare possiblities and miracles "they *might* be wrong....she *might* come back" you people need to face facts and stop arguing the impossible

and yes, i do believe in miracles, but i don't use them as the basis of an argument "i didn't do my homework because i thought it might miraclly (yea it's an adverb now) do itself"

really all the opposing arguements rely on very very very very very rare possiblitys and miracles "they *might* be wrong....she *might* come back" you people need to face facts and stop arguing the impossible

Hate to say this but nothing is impossible. Doubtful? Yes. Impossible? no.

really all the opposing arguements rely on very very very very very rare possiblities and miracles "they *might* be wrong....she *might* come back" you people need to face facts and stop arguing the impossible

and yes, i do believe in miracles, but i don't use them as the basis of an argument "i didn't do my homework because i thought it might miraclly (yea it's an adverb now) do itself"

For some people, even the slightest chance is enough - and these people should make it clear to their families that they want to continue even if the odds are stacked against them to an almost infinite degree.

To others, it is not enough to have infinitesimal odds - there has to be a measurable chance. These people should also make it clear to their families what they want.

I didn't say recover did I? Nope I didn't!

I said that doctors have been wrong before.

Have any doctors ever been wrong about anything before? Of course. :rolleyes:

Is that even vaguely relevant? No. :rolleyes:

but saying "it's not impossible" is not a reason to cling on to the tattered remains of what was once a respecatable human being

Have any doctors ever been wrong about anything before? Of course. :rolleyes:

At least we agree on something :D

Is that even vaguely relevant? No. :rolleyes:

Yes it is relevant.

but saying "it's not impossible" is not a reason to cling on to the tattered remains of what was once a respecatable human being

I'll grant you that but for some....

Have any doctors ever been wrong about anything before? Of course. :rolleyes:

Is that even vaguely relevant? No. :rolleyes:
hahahahah
your arguement :sniper: <cat tribe
lol

Will an autopsy even be performed? Last I heard, the husband had insisted on cremation with no autopsy. :confused:
last i heard, her husband has a girlfriend that he's been seeing for 5-6 years... :eek:

last i heard, her husband has a girlfriend that he's been seeing for 5-6 years... :eek:
why so surprised? terri's been like this for 15 years? is he supposed to let his social life die along with his wife?

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/1424347.html that's a link to a news article about the autopsy

"Her remains will be released to her husband within 24 hours, Pellan told reporters Thursday afternoon.

Pellan said the autopsy would have been performed under Florida law regardless of whether family members had requested it.
"
~http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/1424347.html

last i heard, her husband has a girlfriend that he's been seeing for 5-6 years... :eek:

Yep. Mrs. Schiavo accident occurred 15 years ago.

After Mrs. Schiavo had been in a persistent vegetative state and after her family encouraged him to move on and they introduced him to women to date, he did so.

So?

(And there is going to be an autopsy. Why anyone cares I don't know.)

Because the Autopsy will solve alot of answers.

<sigh>

It is a "legal and moral issue" that has been decided over and over and over again for 8 years by every court from the Florida trial court to the Florida Supreme Court to a US District Court to the US Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit to the US Supreme Court.

Its done. Its been looked into. Its been decided.

You continue to raise "questions" only because you haven't read a single scap of the actual court rulings dealing with all of this.



Not true. Evidence has been posted to the contrary.



Not true. Evidence has been posted to the contrary.



Not true. Evidence has been posted to the contrary.



They were present 10 minutes before she died.

He was present when she died.

Because of their vitriol, the parents cannot visit her at the same time he does. More than reasonable.



Because there is not a scrap of evidence of any of this crap.

It is pure hate fueled by ideology.



Then don't. She didn't. It is medically impossible.



WTF are you talking about?

Rumors of abuse were investigated. They are not true. Stop spreading libel.



Then you and people like you should shut up and leave the poor man alone.

You have tried to maintain a facade of reasonableness and compassion.

But you have shown no compassion to Mr. Schiavo and his family.

And you have continued to spread unreasonable falsehoods.

You need to look to your own heart.

I have not spread falsehoods. I have taken the accusations and queries that have been generated, and proposed a "what if some or all of them are true" scenerio. The best and most likely outcome is that none of them are true. But, if it is unreasonable for me to ponder the ramifications if any of these accusations are true is no different than wondering what would happen if:

Kerry was elected president
Saddam regained control of Iraq
The US had never gone into Vietnam
The Yankees had won
Canada declared war on the US
Mexico declared war on the US
The US declared war on all of Europe
You accidentally drink a glass of poison
You accidentally poisoned your rich granny
Tink married PM

It's a game of thinking out of the box, imagining varying scenerios and their possible outcome. I have in no way said that Mr Schiavo abused his wife nor have I said that I believe without a doubt that she could have been rehabilitated. I have said that the documents and court records that I have read offer varying views and I have a few doubts. I have also said that if Mrs Schiavo had been my child, I would have fought for her as her parents have.

I know where my heart is.

Because the Autopsy will solve alot of answers.
answers to questions raised by hardliners that refuse to let a person die with dignity. now they need a villian. Mr. Schiavo would make the perfect bad guy wouldn't he? let's just wait and see what "physical abuse" and whatnot they find. maybe after this you can let this poor woman R.I.P. (but even then it'll be "he paid off the coroner with the insurance money he made off his poor dead wife") way to make people out to be evil so that you can feel like you're fighting for a just cause

Hey if you harass the husband, why not his brother?

" As he monitored TV news reports from the kitchen of his small house in the Philadelphia suburbs, Scott Schiavo received a stream of calls Thursday from people denouncing him and his brother. On his answering machine was a lengthy message from a man from Texas who, shouting obscenities, called the Schiavo family murderers."

Poor oppressed Christians! :rolleyes:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050331/ap_on_re_us/schiavo_hometown_4

I have not spread falsehoods. I have taken the accusations and queries that have been generated, and proposed a "what if some or all of them are true" scenerio. The best and most likely outcome is that none of them are true. But, if it is unreasonable for me to ponder the ramifications if any of these accusations are true is no different than wondering what would happen if:

Kerry was elected president
Saddam regained control of Iraq
The US had never gone into Vietnam
The Yankees had won
Canada declared war on the US
Mexico declared war on the US
The US declared war on all of Europe
You accidentally drink a glass of poison
You accidentally poisoned your rich granny
Tink married PM

It's a game of thinking out of the box, imagining varying scenerios and their possible outcome. I have in no way said that Mr Schiavo abused his wife nor have I said that I believe without a doubt that she could have been rehabilitated. I have said that the documents and court records that I have read offer varying views and I have a few doubts. I have also said that if Mrs Schiavo had been my child, I would have fought for her as her parents have.

I know where my heart is.
wtf?!?! ur a weirdo

(but even then it'll be "he paid off the coroner with the insurance money he made off his poor dead wife") way to make people out to be evil so that you can feel like you're fighting for a just cause

You forgot the judges as well.

you keep playing that little game of thinking outside the box, i'm sure your going places, "act like your liberal but have a conservative heart"...yea man that's the way to succeed

You forgot the judges as well.
lol

wtf?!?! ur a weirdo

She is anything but Tirnanog89! Your new here but she is a very good debator. Don't make assumptions about people you just met.

wtf?!?! ur a weirdo

source?

you keep playing that little game of thinking outside the box, i'm sure your going places, "act like your liberal but have a conservative heart"...yea man that's the way to succeed

Tell that to Lieberman. Tell that to Senator Miller. Miller a conservative Democrat and Lieberman is technically a moderate Dem but does have conservative ideas.

source?

Nice Comeback Zooke! :D

I believe that Federal law states that an Autopsy only has to be performed if:

There is not a doctor present at the time of death to determine the cause.

If there is no doctor present then you have to have it done....BUT I'm sure every man has a heart and he would get an Autopsy just to confirm if she was indeed in a vegetative state.

I have thought about a scenerio in which Canada invaded the U.S.

In my opinion if that happened Europe would be basically split over who to side with, so they would probably remain nuetral. And we would smoosh them. Even if it was an allied offensive with Mexico we'd still win within a couple of hours.

yea, call me a conservative and tell me how to think "She is anything but Tirnanog89! Your new here but she is a very good debator. Don't make assumptions about people you just met. " i'll percieve people any way i want, and the way i'm seein your little Zooke here is a overopionated wannabe. "Tell that to Lieberman. Tell that to Senator Miller. Miller a conservative Democrat and Lieberman is technically a moderate Dem but does have conservative ideas. " tell them what? to not be conservative? to not be liberal? go back and read my post again, you obviously didn't get it. and my source? me. remember when everybody could be their own source and their opinion mattered? no you don't because you think that by looking up news sources that tell you what you want to hear you get the truth

I have not spread falsehoods. I have taken the accusations and queries that have been generated, and proposed a "what if some or all of them are true" scenerio. The best and most likely outcome is that none of them are true. But, if it is unreasonable for me to ponder the ramifications if any of these accusations are true is no different than wondering what would happen if:
*snip*

It's a game of thinking out of the box, imagining varying scenerios and their possible outcome. I have in no way said that Mr Schiavo abused his wife nor have I said that I believe without a doubt that she could have been rehabilitated. I have said that the documents and court records that I have read offer varying views and I have a few doubts. I have also said that if Mrs Schiavo had been my child, I would have fought for her as her parents have.

I know where my heart is.

Zooke? What ifs are nothing more then what ifs. They are fun to play but they only solve problems if a solution is the desired result. Many people say whatif their whole life.

Now "thinking outside the box" is a bad warning sign for me. That is a sign that a company officer wants to take something away or deny something and it's his way to say you better think my way.

Few good things come from people who preech "thinking outside the box"

I would question the documents you have read because Mrs. Schivaos GALs and court appointed docs and a batch of neuralogists have said she is gone.

There is no rehabilitation. The only doc that questioned that is also involved with 5 prolife groups.

Every parent fights for their child.

As an adult you have to know when to let go.

yea, call me a conservative and tell me how to think "She is anything but Tirnanog89! Your new here but she is a very good debator. Don't make assumptions about people you just met. " i'll percieve people any way i want, and the way i'm seein your little Zooke here is a overopionated wannabe. "Tell that to Lieberman. Tell that to Senator Miller. Miller a conservative Democrat and Lieberman is technically a moderate Dem but does have conservative ideas. " tell them what? to not be conservative? to not be liberal? go back and read my post again, you obviously didn't get it. and my source? me. remember when everybody could be their own source and their opinion mattered? no you don't because you think that by looking up news sources that tell you what you want to hear you get the truth

This is twice you have insulted Zooke. I suggest you take it easy or you may have a very short time here. You know nothing about her. I have come to know her. She is one of the brightest people on this board.

you guys/girls/??? think you're informed, but look again, you might be brainwashed. you tell me not to assume, but you're assuming that i'm assuming. so why don't you take a step back, stop telling people what political views they should have, and rethink your own.

Making mountains out of mole hills are we?

This is twice you have insulted Zooke. I suggest you take it easy or you may have a very short time here. You know nothing about her. I have come to know her. She is one of the brightest people on this board.
what are you talking about? what did i say that was so insulting? i said "this is how i percieve her" should i not voice my opinions? i'm sure you'd love that

you guys/girls/??? think you're informed, but look again, you might be brainwashed. you tell me not to assume, but you're assuming that i'm assuming. so why don't you take a step back, stop telling people what political views they should have, and rethink your own.

I have this same thought when I'm argueing with liberals telling me something's wrong then get offensive when I ask them to put a different solution on the table.

Making mountains out of mole hills are we?
......that's just plain funny, playing the "you're overreacting card" doesn't work unless you're in highschool my friend

I have this same thought when I'm argueing with liberals telling me something's wrong then get offensive when I ask them to put a different solution on the table.
solution to what?

I have not spread falsehoods. I have taken the accusations and queries that have been generated, and proposed a "what if some or all of them are true" scenerio. The best and most likely outcome is that none of them are true. But, if it is unreasonable for me to ponder the ramifications if any of these accusations are true is no different than wondering what would happen if:

Kerry was elected president
Saddam regained control of Iraq
The US had never gone into Vietnam
The Yankees had won
Canada declared war on the US
Mexico declared war on the US
The US declared war on all of Europe
You accidentally drink a glass of poison
You accidentally poisoned your rich granny
Tink married PM

It's a game of thinking out of the box, imagining varying scenerios and their possible outcome. I have in no way said that Mr Schiavo abused his wife nor have I said that I believe without a doubt that she could have been rehabilitated. I have said that the documents and court records that I have read offer varying views and I have a few doubts. I have also said that if Mrs Schiavo had been my child, I would have fought for her as her parents have.

I know where my heart is.

If you want me to go back to where you have, in fact, spread falsehoods, I will. If you wish to simply admit you have said unwise things in the past but no longer believe them to be true, then I am satisfied. But say so.

But, with all due respect, if I post "scenarios" like "what if they find the bodies of all the people Zooke has killed" or "what if tests of Corneliu's family finally reveals that his parents are cousins," I'm not really being neutral. Particularly if I had implied those slurs were true.

To deny the difference between the two sets of hypotheses is to be disingenuous. You are not "thinking outside the box." You are continuing a campaign of rumours and innuendo.

......that's just plain funny, playing the "you're overreacting card" doesn't work unless you're in highschool my friend

Actually, i think people are overracting, including you.

solution to what?

To about any issue that I have debated in the past.

you keep playing that little game of thinking outside the box, i'm sure your going places, "act like your liberal but have a conservative heart"...yea man that's the way to succeed

I don't "act" in any way. I state my convictions clearly, if you cared to read them. I am pro-life. This extends to people who are disabled, unborn children, murderers, severely retarded...everyone. I was born into the Jewish faith and converted to Catholic. I believe that it is an interesting mind exercise to take a current topic, propose the least likely outcome, and ask what others think might be the possible effect of this outcome. I wasn't aware than only liberals and people acting like liberals could see the merit of such a discussion. I have never said that I think the autopsy will prove abuse or mental awareness. I have said that if my daughter had shown signs of awareness as videos of Terri show, I would have persisted in rehab for her rather than choose removal of life support. I'm saying this as a parent that can understand what has motivated her parents. If this makes me weird, well, there are an awful lot of weird people running around. As a matter of fact, you may be one of a very very few sane people in the world.

by the way "disagreeing" isn't being offensive, it's not conforming to you're plan, and guess what sometimes you're wrong.

by the way "disagreeing" isn't being offensive, it's not conforming to you're plan, and guess what sometimes you're wrong.

No crap people can be wrong.

To about any issue that I have debated in the past.
ummm are we arguing about those issues at all? maybe i agree with you on something, dont assume that i'm a 1 party 1 mind kinda guy like u, bud

No crap people can be wrong.
wow, you've opened my eyes...touching

ummm are we arguing about those issues at all? maybe i agree with you on something, dont assume that i'm a 1 party 1 mind kinda guy like u, bud

not in this case. I've gave up debating this because it has gotten out of hand. So how can we be arguing about something If I'm not debating it?

shown signs of awareness as videos of Terri show, I would have persisted in rehab for her rather than choose removal of life support.

There are 4 hours of footage you haven't seen.

Mrs. Schiavo's GAL said he felt distrubed by the footage but from his tests and talking to the staff and guards, there was nothing to prove she wasn't in a PVS.

wow, you've opened my eyes...touching

Don't begin to patronize me.

This is twice you have insulted Zooke. I suggest you take it easy or you may have a very short time here. You know nothing about her. I have come to know her. She is one of the brightest people on this board.

Back off, buckaroo.

You have no right or power to threaten anyone.

Tirnanog89's opinions are welcome, whether you like them or not.

Tirnanog89 may or may not have misjudged Zooke. But Tirnanog89's contributions to this thread so far have been far more intelligent than yours.

gah!! her EEG showed an ABSOLUTE FREAKING FLATLINE. No higher brain function. even comatose patients have a slow up-and-down. she did not. end of freaking story.

ahem.

What the hell? Why is this such a big issue? Thousands of people die every day around the world, some by plague, some by famine, some by war, and some by crime, but an entire nation is centered on a woman who was braindead? This was obviously a private affair, so why do all of these hardcore Catholics come out of the woodwork and start criticizing a man's decision?

He didn't want the woman he loved to suffer any longer. It's not about dignity, morals, etc., it's about him not wanting her to suffer. But since euthanasia goes against the beliefs of Catholocism (I'm a Catholic too, by the way), everyone yells "Murderer!" and starts criticizing every single bit of the issue?

Hell, if I was in Ms. Schiavo's state, I'd be glad to die. Not being able to enjoy the simple pleasures of life, not being able to follow my dreams and have my hobbies....what else is there to life?

I don't "act" in any way. I state my convictions clearly, if you cared to read them. I am pro-life. This extends to people who are disabled, unborn children, murderers, severely retarded...everyone. I was born into the Jewish faith and converted to Catholic. I believe that it is an interesting mind exercise to take a current topic, propose the least likely outcome, and ask what others think might be the possible effect of this outcome. I wasn't aware than only liberals and people acting like liberals could see the merit of such a discussion. I have never said that I think the autopsy will prove abuse or mental awareness. I have said that if my daughter had shown signs of awareness as videos of Terri show, I would have persisted in rehab for her rather than choose removal of life support. I'm saying this as a parent that can understand what has motivated her parents. If this makes me weird, well, there are an awful lot of weird people running around. As a matter of fact, you may be one of a very very few sane people in the world.

k ready? i didn't mean to offend you back there by calling you a 'weirdo' that was a bit of a joke. and i can understand what you would do if a loved one was in a position like Mrs, Schiavo's but the whole point of my arguement and (people that agree with with me)'s argument is what terri would want. i realize that many people are going to want to revive her and make her better, but terri would not have gotten better (that's my opinion) and it's best that she passed peacefully. i realize that that will make some people (parents, siblings, friends....) sad, but it's what terri would want :'(

Don't begin to patronize me.
i'll do as i please

Back off, buckaroo.

You have no right or power to threaten anyone.

Tirnanog89's opinions are welcome, whether you like them or not.

Tirnanog89 may or may not have misjudged Zooke. But Tirnanog89's contributions to this thread so far have been far more intelligent than yours.
thank you very much mr. tribe, the feeling is mutual

Does anyone know more about a law that apparently Governor George W. Bush has passed a few years ago that if a coma patient cannot pay for their medical bills any longer, he is to be taken off life support?

The German newspaper Stern has talked about that in their latest issue and I'm curious if that indeed is the case.

If it proves to be correct (and I'm sure somebody can find something about it) then what are we dealing with? Double moral standards taken to the extreme?

i'll do as i please

Do it at your own risk then.

Be warned, I don't respond to it kindly.

What the hell? Why is this such a big issue? Thousands of people die every day around the world, some by plague, some by famine, some by war, and some by crime, but an entire nation is centered on a woman who was braindead? This was obviously a private affair, so why do all of these hardcore Catholics come out of the woodwork and start criticizing a man's decision?

He didn't want the woman he loved to suffer any longer. It's not about dignity, morals, etc., it's about him not wanting her to suffer. But since euthanasia goes against the beliefs of Catholocism (I'm a Catholic too, by the way), everyone yells "Murderer!" and starts criticizing every single bit of the issue?

Hell, if I was in Ms. Schiavo's state, I'd be glad to die. Not being able to enjoy the simple pleasures of life, not being able to follow my dreams and have my hobbies....what else is there to life?
agreed, you see? it's about what terri would want?

Do it at your own risk then.

Be warned, I don't respond to it kindly.
ummm ok

Does anyone know more about a law that apparently Governor George W. Bush has passed a few years ago that if a coma patient cannot pay for their medical bills any longer, they are to be taken off life support?

The German newspaper Stern has talked about that in their latest issue and I'm curious if that indeed is the case.

If it proves to be correct (and I'm sure somebody can find something about it) then what are we dealing with? Double moral standards taken to the extreme?
why can't that "somebody" be you, hop to it, do your own dirty work/research

In my opinion she should have died a while ago. When god feels its your time to go then it rightfully is. However with New High tec. advances we are keeping her alive when it sort of isnt meant to be. The family says this is " murdering" however they are also religious. Im suprised they didnt mention that it was terri's time to go a while ago.

In my opinion she should have died a while ago. When god feels its your time to go then it rightfully is. However with New High tec. advances we are keeping her alive when it sort of isnt meant to be. The family says this is " murdering" however they are also religious. Im suprised they didnt mention that it was terri's time to go a while ago.
yea as sad as it is, terry should have died 15 years ago...who are we to play God?

Does anyone know more about a law that apparently Governor George W. Bush has passed a few years ago that if a coma patient cannot pay for their medical bills any longer, they are to be taken off life support?

The German newspaper Stern has talked about that in their latest issue and I'm curious if that indeed is the case.

If it proves to be correct (and I'm sure somebody can find something about it) then what are we dealing with? Double moral standards taken to the extreme?

It's known by a few. The news agencies didn't say much about it. They kind of pissed me off over this whole affair. Endless air time to the emotional crap and next to nothing for the people that can explain PVS and what it means. Radio actually gave out better info this time around.

It's is a double standard. Our dear President showed he was not that smart as this was a landmine that should have been avoided. Even many conservatives who wanted her kept alive felt the goverment had no place in this argument.

Remember "Err on the side of life" as long as they can pay for it.

I lost faith in them a long time ago. They are completely fraudulent now and the FDA is now almost completely corrupted. I have no faith in them and I do not trust them anymore then I would trust a common criminal.

Forgive me .. for what comes ahead is obviously flamebait. Its just statements like this that make me wonder what people are thinking.

I assume since you dont trust the medical profession that you would seek your local prish for medical advice or for some emergency surgery.
maybe your rather go to tom delay when you need to get medical advice..
or maybe Mary Shindler.

All of these people have opinions about things based on thier ideology, thier situation, or thier political aspirations... but only one group of these have any skill or study in this field (however flawed the mdical profession might be.).

Next time I brakes bones or have a heartattack.. Im going to go to church.. If im lucky.. they might subject me to bloodletting with leeches or other medically sound procedures.

Because, as far as I know, there was no signed document in which she said she wished to be terminated if she was in a vegetative state. Is there such a document? If there is, I will completely reverse my opinion because I do believe people have a right to die if they state that the wish to.
I myself do not wish to be plugged into some machine if I am brain dead. I intend to have such documents made if it is possible.
Is it possible? Can such documents be made and did she make one?

You already know the answer to your own question, so why don't you hop off your high horse and shut the Hell up already? Do YOU have a relative in a PVS?

No, of course you don't. So what value is there in your earnest heartfelt opinion ? Two answers: Jack and Shit.

Is there HONESTLY anyone here who would wish to live out the fullness of time insensate, tethered to various machines? No, of course there isn't.

So why do you insist than in the absence of materials penned prior to her coronary, that Mrs. Schiavo MUST be FORCED to so live her life? What ludicrously twisted logic would ever prompt you to demand this of HER loved ones? Do you derive some sick enjoyment from the continuance of misery in other people's lives? Or is this just a passing fancy you'll eventually grow out of?

this isn't directed at anyone i just thought it was funny

:upyours:

why can't that "somebody" be you, hop to it, do your own dirty work/research

Oh be nice now. He was kind to ask versus go on a rant.

Here is page that talked about a case of a baby dying. However, the newspaper link in it comes up blank. Hmmm pulled for political reasons?

http://cut-to-the-chase.blogspot.com/2005/03/texas-withdraws-life-support-from-poor.html

hahahahahahahaahhaahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha

look at his wee little finger hahahahahaha

Ok... you all got me figured out. I'm a half crazed Christian who wants to taste blood and guts and veins in my teeth. I don't care who is right in this matter...I just want Michael Schivo to fry. I would have loved to see Mrs. Schiavo lay in bed with bedsores crawling all over her for at least another 50 years. I hate the thought of people having happy productive lives. I want her parents to live in agony over their daughter's death. Happy?

Or, maybe, I have read what you have read, and believe that she is serverely brain damaged. Note, not brain-dead. That is something entirely different. My daughter was brain dead. I have also read the the petitions of her family, and it raised some doubts. I have no doubt that I believe a person should be allowed to die but that they should not be made to die. So, as I have stated before, I don't agree with the decision of the courts, based on hearsay evidence, that Mrs Schiavo should be made to die of starvation and dehydration...a barbaric death at best. To propose that I created this thread with an agenda to persecute Michael Schiavo is wrong, as I have pointed out to you several times. The real reason I created this thread was to give people who were hijacking my memorial thread to Mrs. Schiavo a place to argue the same circular arguments that have been going on for the last two weeks.

So, lay off, will you? You either can't or won't understand my motivations and feelings on this topic, and anything you say about me or against me is based in ignorance.

Oh be nice now. He was kind to ask versus go on a rant.

Here is page that talked about a case of a baby dying. However, the newspaper link in it comes up blank. Hmmm pulled for political reasons?

http://cut-to-the-chase.blogspot.com/2005/03/texas-withdraws-life-support-from-poor.html
i guess so :(

Tell that to Lieberman. Tell that to Senator Miller. Miller a conservative Democrat and Lieberman is technically a moderate Dem but does have conservative ideas.

Feh. You're all right-wingers...you wouldn't know what left is if you didn't drive.

Feh. You're all right-wingers...you wouldn't know what left is if you didn't drive.
hahaha

i think everyone on this forum should go to www.politicalcompass.org and post their results, just interested about seeing how right/left you all are :)

Do it at your own risk then.

Be warned, I don't respond to it kindly.

Oh, you gonna go cry to the mods again?

Wrong. Many herbal medicines that have been PROVEN to work are outlawed here in the US by the FDA. The FDA also tried to ban acupuncture if you didn't know. Only reason they couldn’t was because its not actually a drug.

there are some herbal medicines that are useful. also , alot of the medicine that you get is created from herbs.

then there are many many herbal remedies.. that have no practical affect beyond a psychosomatic one. if the govt could police these companies tha tmake claims (mostly claims with alot of testimonials) which have no medical basis at all, then there would be room for more herbal and wholistic medicines.

Call me dumb.. but i dont believe doctors want to prolong disease by giving someone a pain medication that they must continue to purchase.. and never offering a cure.

no.. thats the pharmaseutical (sp) companies.
know your enemy.

Or, maybe, I have read what you have read, and believe that she is serverely brain damaged. Note, not brain-dead. That is something entirely different. My daughter was brain dead. I have also read the the petitions of her family, and it raised some doubts. I have no doubt that I believe a person should be allowed to die but that they should not be made to die. So, as I have stated before, I don't agree with the decision of the courts, based on hearsay evidence, that Mrs Schiavo should be made to die of starvation and dehydration...a barbaric death at best. To propose that I created this thread with an agenda to persecute Michael Schiavo is wrong, as I have pointed out to you several times. The real reason I created this thread was to give people who were hijacking my memorial thread to Mrs. Schiavo a place to argue the same circular arguments that have been going on for the last two weeks.


Brain damanged it correct. It is wrong to say brain-dead. Starvation and dehydration is a good emotional image. Morhphine takes care of the pain. It is questionable to even suggest she knew she was dying.

Now that brings up a point. Starvation and dehydration would not have happened is there was a euthanasia option.

For the record I know where you are coming from better then most. I have lost a daughter as well.

Call me dumb.. but i dont believe doctors want to prolong disease by giving someone a pain medication that they must continue to purchase.. and never offering a cure.


I don't wanna call you dumb...but you do realize doctors receive a fee from pharmaceutical companies, right? For prescribing their wares?

The Political Compass (for me)

Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.62
(right next to Ghandi)

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/images/axeswithnames.gif

why can't that "somebody" be you, hop to it, do your own dirty work/research

Depending on what you're taking - please adjust your dosis!

BTW: -5.75 vs. -4.21

I don't wanna call you dumb...but you do realize doctors receive a fee from pharmaceutical companies, right? For prescribing their wares?

Say it isn't so!!!!!

My Doc and his group like to piss off the pharm reps. They take the samples and hand the out in large batches and rarely prescribe them. ;)

Depending on what you're talking - please adjust your dosis!
it was directed twoard the post above that this kid was like "does anyone know about this bill passed by george w.?" and i was like "no, google it"

"BTW: -5.75 vs. -4.21 " you made that up didn't you?

No, didn't make it up: I took that test just then.

And that "kid" above was me, you moron!

No, didn't make it up: I took that test just then.

And that "kid" above was me, you moron!
oh yea.....good times

Sometimes not even the good ones can. PA is losing doctors because of malpractice insurance.

off topic note to an off topic comment
malpractice insurance is terribly expensive and may doctors struggle to pay it.
It means that playing golf for more than 2 days a week becomes difficult.

Alot of the problem is the insurance companies. Alot of these costs are artificially inflated. In fact, only about 1% of the claims brought about by patients has any affect on the cost of malpractice insurance. Most of it related to large corporations and doctors suing each other.

Another note:
it is VERY difficult to win a malpractice suit against any doctor. Even if you come out of a medical procedure permanantly scarred or injured, yo uhave to proove that the care the doctor provided was not in line with best practices of current medical science. so as long as the doctor followed the guidelines for dealing with your impairment when treating you, you have no case against them.

"BTW: -5.75 vs. -4.21 " you made that up didn't you?

Probably not. I just took it can got -5.13 vs -4.92

Probably not. I just took it can got -5.13 vs -4.92
whoa, you peeps are mad anarchists/leftists

oh yea.....good times

:D Guess Ghandi is really proud of us, huh?

lol, ok i gotta go finish some homework and sleep...i guess i'll be on next week, friday tommorow w00t...peace out :)

Ahhh, I took the political compass a few times - I think it's a lot of bull, personally, but I know someone out there actually compiled an exhaustive diagram showing eeeeeeverybody's location on the thing.

According to my standings, I'm left-wing, anti-authoritarian and libertarian or some stale old crap that is pretty much meaningless - especially given that political terms as defined by Americans have little or no meaning outside the US.

Like I said before, you're all right-wingers. Some of you have just deluded yourselves that you're not quite as right-wing as the worst among you.

Me? I'm actually politically just slightly left-of-centre here in Canada, where we actually possess a full political spectrum. Of course down there, I'd be considered a frickin' Trotskyite...

To whomever says they killed Terri you are dead wrong it is gods will that she die or she would have never have bbeen in this vegatative state anyway if you watched south park you would know these things....Further more she wouldn't have ever recovered with rehablitation 80% of her brain was replaced by some sort of fluid or something...She was also like this for 15 years if it wasn't any better after 15 years it ain't ever getting much better

Ahhh, I took the political compass a few times - I think it's a lot of bull, personally, but I know someone out there actually compiled an exhaustive diagram showing eeeeeeverybody's location on the thing.

According to my standings, I'm left-wing, anti-authoritarian and libertarian or some stale old crap that is pretty much meaningless - especially given that political terms as defined by Americans have little or no meaning outside the US.

Like I said before, you're all right-wingers. Some of you have just deluded yourselves that you're not quite as right-wing as the worst among you.

Me? I'm actually politically just slightly left-of-centre here in Canada, where we actually possess a full political spectrum. Of course down there, I'd be considered a frickin' Trotskyite...

I totally agree that the political compass is essentially worthless.

Nonetheless, FWIW:

Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.26

Like I said before, you're all right-wingers. Some of you have just deluded yourselves that you're not quite as right-wing as the worst among you.

*Fakes New York Italian accent*

You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me?

:D Just kidding - my next journey to America will definitely take me to Canada: They at least don't treat their visitors like criminals for once ;)

Wrong. Many herbal medicines that have been PROVEN to work are outlawed here in the US by the FDA. The FDA also tried to ban acupuncture if you didn't know. Only reason they couldn’t was because its not actually a drug.


It seems the FDA isn't preventing you from getting your crazy pills!

I totally agree that the political compass is essentially worthless.

Nonetheless, FWIW:

Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.26

Why you are just a hippy now aren't you? :p

ummm ok


Watch out tirn, next thing you know corneliy might hate you as much as he hates michael schiavo, and that means you'll get accused of everything from spousal abuse to murder conspiracies to profiteering off others' deaths.

None of it will be true, but he will enlist the help of his comrade Panhandalia who is an even more shrill and less realistic false witness and hate monger.

Why you are just a hippy now aren't you? :p

I went to a few Dead shows ...

... hey! why? Are you a narc? You're watching me through the monitor again ain'tcha?

I don't wanna call you dumb...but you do realize doctors receive a fee from pharmaceutical companies, right? For prescribing their wares?

It happens.. Im sure they can get trips to bermuda for being on the approval committee for a new drug. Just like any other profession, there is a segment willing to bend the hypocratic oath for a little extra cash.. There are even some wholl say.. it may not cure this person.. but it wont hurt them either.

Its a sad sad shame.
And the criminals at pharmaceuticals have to do it. because they lose so much money researching drugs that never make it to the market.

The drugs you are talking about though ... are generally not standard off the shelf drugs, they are most often medicines for things that dont have any cures or any other medical treatment.

Feh. You're all right-wingers...you wouldn't know what left is if you didn't drive.

Prove I'm a right-winger.

i think everyone on this forum should go to www.politicalcompass.org and post their results, just interested about seeing how right/left you all are :)

Mines in my signature actually.

Economic Left/Right: 0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.38

Just incase you don't have it set to view them :)

Oh, you gonna go cry to the mods again?

When have I gone to the mods?

Watch out tirn, next thing you know corneliy might hate you as much as he hates michael schiavo, and that means you'll get accused of everything from spousal abuse to murder conspiracies to profiteering off others' deaths.

None of it will be true, but he will enlist the help of his comrade Panhandalia who is an even more shrill and less realistic false witness and hate monger.

Now this is totally uncalled for. There are many people I disagree with but still get along fine.

The brain has regenerative properties in some cases. What if her autopsy shows that she was aware and would have improved with rehabilitation? What if it also shows that her brain damage was caused by trauma and not from coronary arrest?
Better yet, what if the autopsy reveals damage to bones, caused by abuse? Unfortunately, the mode of dying ensured that we can never find out if the internal organs had damage consistent with insulin shock...would have been nice to be able to clear Michael's name if he indeed didnt do it.

Prove I'm a right-winger.



i think everyone on this forum should go to www.politicalcompass.org and post their results, just interested about seeing how right/left you all are Mines in my signature actually.


Mines in my signature actually.

Economic Left/Right: 0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.38

Just incase you don't have it set to view them :)

LOL :D

You really make this too easy. :p

LOL :D

You really make this too easy. :p

As you say, its basically worthless. :p :D

I refuse to take the political compass test as a matter of principle.

Another note:
it is VERY difficult to win a malpractice suit against any doctor. Even if you come out of a medical procedure permanantly scarred or injured, yo uhave to proove that the care the doctor provided was not in line with best practices of current medical science. so as long as the doctor followed the guidelines for dealing with your impairment when treating you, you have no case against them.

Correction, you have to convince a jury that knows absolutely nothing about medical practice that the doctor did something wrong. As such, all you have to do is make the doctor look like a jerk, even if you have no scars or permanent damage whatsoever. In Philly not that long ago, a woman was awared 20 million. She had no lasting damage whatsoever, and the doctor had followed medical guidelines right down to the last letter.

This is why malpractice cases should be reviewed by an independent panel of doctors before they even make it to the courtroom.

If Schiavo wasn't a vegetable then her husband is going to pull a damn Lazaraus, waddle through the underworld and bring her back to life.

If Schiavo wasn't a vegetable then her husband is going to pull a damn Lazaraus, waddle through the underworld and bring her back to life.


With all the stuff he's been through so far just to honor and respect her wishes it wouldnt surprise me.

He is a man of unimpeachable uprightness and good integrity and character.

Correction, you have to convince a jury that knows absolutely nothing about medical practice that the doctor did something wrong. As such, all you have to do is make the doctor look like a jerk, even if you have no scars or permanent damage whatsoever. In Philly not that long ago, a woman was awared 20 million. She had no lasting damage whatsoever, and the doctor had followed medical guidelines right down to the last letter.

This is why malpractice cases should be reviewed by an independent panel of doctors before they even make it to the courtroom.

You are in error.

The legal standards are a bit more complicated than that.

But even assuming a jury disregards the standards, there is this woman (sometimes they let a man do it) in a black robe called a judge that both before and after the jury verdict can throw the case out.

Feel free to create a separate thread about this case in Philly. I highly doubt the facts are as you claim and the verdict has been enforced. It is easy to be misled by press coverage of these types of cases.

You are in error.

The legal standards are a bit more complicated than that.

Not really - that's how it often ends up working. Most people think doctors are rich guys taking advantage of them - it is easy to milk a jury with that viewpoint.

But even assuming a jury disregards the standards, there is this woman (sometimes they let a man do it) in a black robe called a judge that both before and after the jury verdict can throw the case out.

I don't believe that a judge can throw a case out once a jury trial has begun. The judge can declare mistrial - or an appeals court can overturn a verdict, but the judge can't just say "I don't like your verdict, I'm throwing this out."

Feel free to create a separate thread about this case in Philly. I highly doubt the facts are as you claim and the verdict has been enforced. It is easy to be misled by press coverage of these types of cases.

Has nothing to do with press coverage - the doctor in question was a friend of a friend. He was performing a laproscopic surgery on the woman's colon. In such surgeries, there is a known risk that the gall bladder will be injured, even if the doctor does everything perfectly. This is a 10% risk that is known and explained to the patient ahead of time. Usually, this is not noticed until it causes infection, and a second surgery must be performed. In this particular case, the doctor noticed it as he was pulling the laproscopic devices out. He immediately went in and repaired the damage. This woman had *no* lasting damage, other than a slightly larger scar due to the repair surgery being a bit more invasive. She didn't even have to go through the infection that most of the 10% have to suffer. However, since the doctor in question is arrogant, the jury didn't like him much, regardless of witnesses stating quite clearly that he had fllowed medical procedure to the tee. They originally awared &15 million. The judge told them that this amount was outrageous and to reconsider it. They came back with $20 million instead.

Now, it is highly unlikely that this will be upheld in appeals - but this doctor's malpractice insurance will still go up drastically - and all over a proceudre that netted him, at most, about $300 which he performed exactly as medical practice dictates.

Mrs Schiavo should be made to die of starvation and dehydration...a barbaric death at best.Though you may imagine a barbaric process to this type of death, it generally isn't, especially when the patient, like Mrs. Schiavo, is on morphine.

My family decided to remove my mother's feeding tube when it became clear we were merely unneccessarily prolonging her death process. She was also on morphine to alleviate the pain being caused by her cancer. Removing her feeding tube did not cause her additional suffering. Luckily she had made it clear to us in the days and weeks previous that she was ready to pass. Even if she hadn't, I don't think we would have acted any differently as we loved her well enough to see the cruelty of trying to force her to live longer simply to try to avoid our pain at her loss.

If one thing has been made crystal clear to me with this case, it's that our society has a desparate need to accept that death is the inevitable end to our lives.

Oh, and hello. I'm new here.

I don't believe that a judge can throw a case out once a jury trial has begun. The judge can declare mistrial - or an appeals court can overturn a verdict, but the judge can't just say "I don't like your verdict, I'm throwing this out."

A judge can. Judgment as a matter of law (JMOL or JNOV). Also motion for a new trial.

I've won a few such motions.

Has nothing to do with press coverage - the doctor in question was a friend of a friend. He was performing a laproscopic surgery on the woman's colon. In such surgeries, there is a known risk that the gall bladder will be injured, even if the doctor does everything perfectly. This is a 10% risk that is known and explained to the patient ahead of time. Usually, this is not noticed until it causes infection, and a second surgery must be performed. In this particular case, the doctor noticed it as he was pulling the laproscopic devices out. He immediately went in and repaired the damage. This woman had *no* lasting damage, other than a slightly larger scar due to the repair surgery being a bit more invasive. She didn't even have to go through the infection that most of the 10% have to suffer. However, since the doctor in question is arrogant, the jury didn't like him much, regardless of witnesses stating quite clearly that he had fllowed medical procedure to the tee. They originally awared &15 million. The judge told them that this amount was outrageous and to reconsider it. They came back with $20 million instead.

Now, it is highly unlikely that this will be upheld in appeals - but this doctor's malpractice insurance will still go up drastically - and all over a proceudre that netted him, at most, about $300 which he performed exactly as medical practice dictates.

Your source wouldn't be a tad biased?

For what it is worth.....

Economic Left/Right: -3.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.62

:)

Your source wouldn't be a tad biased?

I've looked up the procedure on my own time. It does, in fact, have a 10% chance of causing bile duct damage - period.

Meanwhile, the doctor I was speaking to didn't especially like the doctor involved in this case - in fact, he stated that the guy was incredibly arrogant more than once. The fact remains, however, that he followed medical procedure. If you would like to argue that my source is biased, then I suppose we should stop asking doctors for advice on medical malpractice cases - since they'll just be biased.

With all the stuff he's been through so far just to honor and respect her wishes it wouldnt surprise me.

He is a man of unimpeachable uprightness and good integrity and character.
Riiiiiight....that would explain why he was having children with another woman while his wife is denied even the most basic medical care and rehab?

Riiiiiight....that would explain why he was having children with another woman while his wife is denied even the most basic medical care and rehab?

You mean the rehab he tried with every specialist he could find for 8 years before they had all told him it was useless?

The situation with Terri Schiavo was appalling. To see that many people actively wishing someone's death, someone guilty only of the crime of being in her husband's way, someone whose continued life would have caused harm to noone. It sickens me.
Hey deathlovers, feel good now, feel happy? Gonna throw a parade cause ya got your petulent way and a woman died. I don't give a goddamn what her state was. The man who supposedly loved her had moved on to another woman years before, he was no longer her husband because of that. Her parents were wanting and willing to take responsibility for her, why should they be denied? Tell me one good reason loving parents should be denied so that an un-loving husband can have control.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/03/31/schiavo-lawyer.html

You're officially a pinhead, 31. Grats.

personally, if i was in the position of Terri Schiavo, i would want euthanasia to be legal, because i wouldnt want to exist like that. that is just me personally.

i will preface this next part by saying i am not religious.
in reference to people saying her husband will go to hell for this, or whatever to do with god, i say the ones that would go to hell would be those that have kept her alive. god had already chosen a time for her, so they were the ones holding her back all these years

on the subject of FOX, i have to admit, with his backing of bush and all, i am really ashamed to say that i was born and bred in the same state as Rupert Murdoch, that being South Australia

on the subject of FOX, i have to admit, with his backing of bush and all, i am really ashamed to say that i was born and bred in the same state as Rupert Murdoch, that being South Australia

Rupert Murdoch may indeed be a major-league asshole, but that's no reason to be ashamed of where you live. Look, most Americans have no idea who Rupert Murdoch is, let alone what connection he has with Fox. Half of them will demand you provide a link to prove Rupert Murdoch isn't just some fictional character concocted by some vague entity known as 'the Left'. And even then, they'd ridicule your sources and walk away convinced of their infallibility.

So, why knock yourself out?

Rupert Murdoch may indeed be a major-league asshole, but that's no reason to be ashamed of where you live. Look, most Americans have no idea who Rupert Murdoch is, let alone what connection he has with Fox. Half of them will demand you provide a link to prove Rupert Murdoch isn't just some fictional character concocted by some vague entity known as 'the Left'. And even then, they'd ridicule your sources and walk away convinced of their infallibility.

So, why knock yourself out?
i am not ashamed of where i live (now New South Wales), just ashamed to be originally from the same state. i mean, i know this is going off topic, but news ltd owned superleauge (rugby league) and now half the NRL here, and one of the teams from their half, the Adelaide Rams, got culled in 1998. what kinda guy folds a club from his home town?

You're right; you're seriously off-topic. And so am I, right now. So...maybe you should start a new thread about how he took a figurative dump on Adelaide. Then maybe this thread will return to its ugly old self.

Start one up! It could prove interesting...!

but yeah, back on topic. to me, i dont know how terri's parents can say they love her, but let her live like this. i am just wondering if it is cause they cant let go of her, but they have to at some point. i know it is tragic to have to mourn a child, and that it should be the other way round, the child mourning the death of the elderly parent, but yeah, why keep her alive in this state, especially with all medical evidence (plus the obvious observation of 14 or whatever years) pointing that she wouldnt recover?

Ok... you all got me figured out. I'm a half crazed Christian who wants to taste blood and guts and veins in my teeth. I don't care who is right in this matter...I just want Michael Schivo to fry. I would have loved to see Mrs. Schiavo lay in bed with bedsores crawling all over her for at least another 50 years. I hate the thought of people having happy productive lives. I want her parents to live in agony over their daughter's death. Happy?

Or, maybe, I have read what you have read, and believe that she is serverely brain damaged. Note, not brain-dead. That is something entirely different. My daughter was brain dead. I have also read the the petitions of her family, and it raised some doubts. I have no doubt that I believe a person should be allowed to die but that they should not be made to die. So, as I have stated before, I don't agree with the decision of the courts, based on hearsay evidence, that Mrs Schiavo should be made to die of starvation and dehydration...a barbaric death at best. To propose that I created this thread with an agenda to persecute Michael Schiavo is wrong, as I have pointed out to you several times. The real reason I created this thread was to give people who were hijacking my memorial thread to Mrs. Schiavo a place to argue the same circular arguments that have been going on for the last two weeks.

So, lay off, will you? You either can't or won't understand my motivations and feelings on this topic, and anything you say about me or against me is based in ignorance.
Ok, stop ignoring what i say and follow your own advice a little "don't assume", there bud. It's pretty clear that you think i'm a pompus bible burner the cold calculates and comes to a decision to kill people that don't function in society. You tell me to "lay off" but go back and read the posts, give me a time when i came out and openly crticized you. I never "layed on" so i can't "lay off".

i'm sure it's easy to win an argument when the opposing side "either can't or won't understand your motivations and feelings on this topic, and anything they say about you or against you is based in ignorance." Really guy, I feel bad for you if you think that everyone that doesn't share the same views as you are ignorant. I didn't come out here to change your mind, but you think that's all i want to do.

I respect that you value life so much that you would keep a person in a state as heart breaking as Terri's, but i cannot say that i value life any less or that i wouldn't do the same thing in Mr. Schiavo's situation. I think that she wouldn't want to live in such a state, so i'd do what's best for her in my opinion and let her move on. You think i don't feel, but in fact i feel just as much as you do, but for who i think it the real victim in all this mess: TERRI. she was the one with brain damage. she was the one on six o'clock news smiling blankly as her parents pretend that she's still alive. you want her parents not to suffer the loss of a daughter, but i didn't want terri to suffer a life of unawareness and limbo. it's a difference of opinion and that's not a bad thing when it comes to a problem like this, but ignoring my views and thinking that everything i do is cold blooded....that's just paranoid. so why don't you lay off man, i'm not the ignorant one here, i actually think about your arguments and respect them, i don't assume that you're a "half crazed Christian" that loves the battle against liberals so much that he "wants to taste blood and guts and veins in his teeth" (and that was just plain sick :confused: ).

All i'm saying is maybe i'm not so out of touch with peoples feelings, wants, and needs as much as you think i am, maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong, but i don't cry and scream about it...calm down

I refuse to take the political compass test as a matter of principle.
What do you mean?

Ahhh, I took the political compass a few times - I think it's a lot of bull, personally, but I know someone out there actually compiled an exhaustive diagram showing eeeeeeverybody's location on the thing.

According to my standings, I'm left-wing, anti-authoritarian and libertarian or some stale old crap that is pretty much meaningless - especially given that political terms as defined by Americans have little or no meaning outside the US.

Like I said before, you're all right-wingers. Some of you have just deluded yourselves that you're not quite as right-wing as the worst among you.

Me? I'm actually politically just slightly left-of-centre here in Canada, where we actually possess a full political spectrum. Of course down there, I'd be considered a frickin' Trotskyite...
i see what you mean, the political compass can't depict the views of one person pefectly but it's the best gauge i know of, it's not to be used as a to the point exact yard stick of your leftism/rightism but it's not really bull either.

And by the way, i resent that blatantly nationalist remark that "political terms as defined by Americans have little or no meaning outside the US." and "you're all right-wingers. Some of you have just deluded yourselves that you're not quite as right-wing as the worst among you." don't hate me because my country is full of idiots bud. I actually belive what i say, and don't tell me i'm deluded.