NationStates Jolt Archive

Brother Paul just announced that Terri Schiavo has passed away. She was Catholic, and I would like other Catholics, and non-Catholics, on this forum to join me in praying the Rosary for her.

In the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit...

http://www.familyrosary.org/main/rosary-how.php

I feel terrible for her family. The whole situation made me feel ill.

Not meaning to be cruel and/or unfeeling, but isn't it a bit late, if she's already dead? Hasn't God already made his decision about where Terry Shiavo is going?

Also, the full Rosary? That's a lot of prayers. Because I go to a Catholic school I have to do the Rosary. And it makes me more and more convinced that I do not want to be a Catholic.

I feel terrible for her family. The whole situation made me feel ill.


As do I-I hope she is at peace and free of the hell-circus she has been the center of.
I'm afraid now that the real sickening parts will begin to unfold. The autopsy, the funeral, the lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit. The media and the politics. It wont end, I'm afraid, til the Pope passes away too. Or has his feeding tube removed.

the woman who was Terry Shaivo died over a decade ago. strange that nobody mourned her then, nor is anybody mourning the countless other PVS individuals who are being utterly ignored in the midst of this entire contraversy.

the woman who was Terry Shaivo died over a decade ago. strange that nobody mourned her then, nor is anybody mourning the countless other PVS individuals who are being utterly ignored in the midst of this entire contraversy.

Such is the glory of the media.

About time. She was nothing more than a zombie. :rolleyes:

Ein Deutscher']About time. She was nothing more than a zombie. :rolleyes:

Rather pathetic of you.

Boy, how I love the nice caring people of this forum. :rolleyes:

Stay tuned next week, for "Vengeance: Battle Over the Body." THIS TIME IT'S PERSONAL!

Mary "The Mother" Schindler, weighing in at 200 lbs. of self-deluded, repressed anger hailing all the way from the nation of Jesusland...

...versus...

...Michael "Plugpuller" Schiavo, a man who fears nothing, weighing in at 175 lbs. Rumors have it that he steps on hamsters for his own sadistic pleasure.

This one's going to a be a really slobberknocker, folks. Place your bets soon, the windows will be closing shortly. Beer will only be sold up until the fifth lawsuit, so buy it now.

Please stop it!! This is not another debate thread for you all to drag out your same old arguments and cruel remarks as to her condition. There are plenty of those threads around so you don't have to pollute this one. She was a living, breathing human being who deserves no less respect than anyone else. As a Catholic, I am asking others with similar beliefs to join in offering prayers for her. So PLEASE take your arguments elsewhere.

Blimey, that's amazingly intricate.
How often do catholics do the 'full rosery' then???
It's a very complex thing to do... What does it represent?

I just wanna' know out of interest, is all as I've never really looked into catholacism.

Is it easy to tell I was raised 'Church of england'?! :rolleyes:

Zooke, maybe I could just point out summat to you... I don't know any Muslims, Seikhs(sp) or Protestants with with a rosery so I'm not so sure that they (or I for that matter) will be joining in.

Cheers.

Rather pathetic of you.

What Ein Deutscher said is more or less true. She was being kept alive by a feeding tube, do you think she was a properly functioning human being towards the end?

Blimey, that's amazingly intricate.
How often do catholics do the 'full rosery' then???
It's a very complex thing to do... What does it represent?

I just wanna' know out of interest, is all as I've never really looked into catholacism.

Is it easy to tell I was raised 'Church of england'?! :rolleyes:

Zooke, maybe I could just point out summat to you... I don't know any Muslims, Seikhs(sp) or Protestants with with a rosery so I'm not so sure that they (or I for that matter) will be joining in.

Cheers.

Sikhs.

And despite having an entirely Catholic education I've never been encouraged to say a full Rosary more than once, so my guess is not very often.

Does anyone know what she died of?

I feel badly, and I think that the family should have been given the choice of whether or not to let her die, because the doctor who examined her said that she was not in a coma, tryed to talk, and would respond very well to things, she was like a few of the speds at my school, except she couldn't really move. But I also feel that she is probably better off without having to suffer like that. This whoel incident did bring out the hypocrisy in liberals though, they always protest things that they don't agree with, but when the conservatives protested the murder of Terri, they get pissed off, and they also are usually against killing criminals and animals, but let this poor woman starve to death, even though she was perfectly fine, well not perfectly, but she could still sustain life.

What Ein Deutscher said is more or less true. She was being kept alive by a feeding tube, do you think she was a properly functioning human being towards the end?
I know a girl who was born with spina bifida. She writes poetry. Is she a "properly functioning human being?" I have 2 lbs of metal holding my right leg together. Am I a "properly functioning human being?" One of my friends has a son who was born with Down's Syndrome. Is he a "properly functioning human being?"

Does anyone know what she died of?

I guess dehydration.

Does anyone know what she died of?
lol starvation maybe? that would be the direct reason.

I think we should pray for Terri Schiavo. However, I think we should be praying for more than her soul, but everyone's souls who are suffering. Here are a list of examples:

The poor, homeless, and abandoned in our home countries and abroad. Their minds are DEFINITELY there, and we don't have Congress intervening for them. They can even do it legally, at least in the US.

People who are suffering as a result of war. The US is inflicting some of it, and we are ignoring them too. We care about a virtually brain-dead woman on a tube, and don't care about our soldiers being car bombed, the innocent peoples in the countries we are in conflict with who die as a result.

The continued suffering of people in Sumatra and the surrounding islands in Indonesia, who are being hit with earthquakes once a day...fortunately, most of them are small, well, except that big one a few days ago...


This obsession with who deserves to be protected and who "deserves" to be prayed for needs to stop. It is clouding our judgement and distracting us from the real work we have to do as Christians (those of us who are) or as priveleged human beings in general. It's easy to glom onto the Schiavo bandwagon because we are being spoonfed compassion and led like media-driven sheep. However, it is the things that go on beyond our eyes that are the most pressing.

This was justa pathetic political gambit that involved a woman's tragic story. Let's get to the real business at hand, shall we?

Ge-Ren

Does anyone know what she died of?
Starvation.

Sikhs.

And despite having an entirely Catholic education I've never been encouraged to say a full Rosary more than once, so my guess is not very often.

Cheers, lad!
I grew up in a predominantly muslim/sikh town and still don't know how to spell it. *blush*

I'm most interested by this debate.
Even more so by Zooke's 'Boot off' (as we call it in Yorkshire) about other people expressing their opinions.

Zooke, dear boy... Has opinion been outlawed by the catholic church?!

Was she still somehow getting water? 13 days is a solid effort without water.

the woman who was Terry Shaivo died over a decade ago. strange that nobody mourned her then, nor is anybody mourning the countless other PVS individuals who are being utterly ignored in the midst of this entire contraversy.
What is the prognosis?
The outcome for coma and vegetative state depends on the cause and on the location, severity, and extent of neurological damage: outcomes range from recovery to death. People may emerge from a coma with a combination of physical, intellectual, and psychological difficulties that need special attention.

Recovery usually occurs gradually, with patients acquiring more and more ability to respond. Some patients never progress beyond very basic responses, but many recover full awareness. Patients recovering from coma require close medical supervision. A coma rarely lasts more than 2 to 4 weeks. Some patients may regain a degree of awareness after vegetative state. Others may remain in a vegetative state for years or even decades. The most common cause of death for a person in a vegetative state is infection such as pneumonia.


Depending on the nature of your injuries, you can recover from a coma (it happens), and you can recover from persistent vegetative state (it happens).

Every case is DIFFERENT. You can't make a blanket statement that ALL will get better, or ALL should be unplugged.

This is the first time I have commented about Terri Schiavo.


From one outsider of the U.S.A.:

If that is true, then I for one hope the media and the politicians learn from it, and grow up. One womans life thrown all over the news... It just made me sick to hear about it!

Catholic's or not, trying to throw political weight around at the expense of a mentally handicapped women is a very cruel deed, and she, her husband and her family should have been allowed the peace and dignity they deserved from us. Instead they were continualy hounded and punished by a media, that should just have known when to fuck off.

Also, Zoote, I don't care very much for your segregation of religion. Catholicism isn't the only religion OR denomination of christianity & I'm sure that people over all types of faiths felt for her, and prayed for her too.

As well as that, there are many people dying in the world now, and It just goes to show how the media influences people's minds. There is no doubt that this was a sad case, but for the majority of the world excluding her family/close friends etc... there is a need to move on, and try to HELP other people in need, where we can actually HELP them.

Darfur, Southern Africa, Jakkarta, Iraq. The list is endless.

For fuck sake, Let Terri & her loved ones rest and mourn in peace!

Starvation.

wrong. She died because she didn't have any water and one by one her organs started shutting down. You can go alot longer without food than you can water.

Brother Paul just announced that Terri Schiavo has passed away. She was Catholic, and I would like other Catholics, and non-Catholics, on this forum to join me in praying the Rosary for her.

In the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit...

http://www.familyrosary.org/main/rosary-how.php
As you know, Zooke, I'm not a Catholic ... I'm not really sure what I am. But out of respect for those who are unable to defend themselves, and out of respect for your faith, I promise I'll try to find a rosary and some instructions so I can join you in saying it.

It greatly, greatly saddens me to see how little respect others on here have for either the dead, the disabled, or the beliefs of others. I was getting very angry as I read some of the totally self-centered, vitriolic and hateful posts on this thread, and was going to really lash out at them, but decided that this would be the best way I could show my support for those whose very survival is dependent upon the whims of others, and to show my support for you ... my friend. ( HUG )

I guess dehydration.


Yep.
This woman didnt start dying til the feeding tube was removed. She was alive and breathing on her own, her heart was beating without any assistance.This is worse than we treat our death penalty convicts.
Remind me to tell my wife in no uncertain terms that if I cant speak, to kill me.

Like many of you, I have been compelled by recent events to prepare a more detailed advance directive dealing with end-of-life issues.

So to ensure that my wishes are not open to future interpretation, here's what mine says:


In the event I lapse into a persistent vegetative state (or become a card carrying member of the Alliance Party), I want medical authorities to resort to extraordinary means to prolong my hellish semiexistence. Fifteen years wouldn't be long enough for me, and after the Schaivo case we'll need to go at least two decades before I have a hope of becoming even a blip on the radar of public opinion. Let's go for a record baby!!


I want my wife and my parents to compound their misery by engaging in a bitter and protracted feud that depletes their emotions and their bank accounts.


I want my wife to ruin the rest of her life by maintaining an interminable vigil at my bedside. I'd be really jealous if she waited less than a decade to start dating again or otherwise rebuilding a semblance of a normal life. Force my kids to sit vigil with her as wll, because childhood should be a miserable time from which they yearn to escape.


I want my case to be turned into a circus by losers and crackpots from around the country who hope to bring meaning to their empty lives by investing the same transient emotion in me that they once reserved for Laci Peterson, Chandra Levy and that little puppy who got stuck in a well. I want them to hold each other and cry about their memories of when they heard different news stories about my life.


I want those crackpots to spread vicious lies about my wife. Bonus points if they can accuse her of causing the very condition that I find myself in. More than that, I want them to insist that they know better what God would want for me, and even that they know better what I would want because those closest to me clearly have no flippin' idea.


I want to be placed in a hospice where protesters can gather to bring further grief and disruption to the lives of dozens of dying patients and families whose stories are sadder than my own.


I want the people who attach themselves to my case because of their deep devotion to the sanctity of life to make death threats against any judges, elected officials, family members, or health care professionals who disagree with them.


I want the medical geniuses and philosopher kings who populate the various legislative bodies to ignore me for more than a decade and then turn my case into a forum for weeks of calculated self-aggradizement. If they can gain politically from the misery of my family, more power to them.


I want total strangers - oily politicians, maudlin news anchors, ersatz friars and all other hangers-on - to start calling me "Xanzy," as if they had known me since childhood.


I want people to profit from my loved one's misery in any way possible. Be creative by cashing in on selling living wills, holding pledge drives for rescuing beached porpoises who are suffering "just like Xanzy", or by getting the concession to sell holy water and snake oil to the gathered mass of crackpots outside my hospice.



Yes, that is what I want. I want to be famous at the time in my life where I will be totally oblivious to it - no matter the cost to those I love most. Fuck it - I'm dying, might as well spread the misery and hipocricy around as much as possible!


Isn't that what everybody wants?

(Idea (and a good chunk of the content) for this shamelessly stolen from Robert Friedman of the St. Petersburgh Time)

wrong. She died because she didn't have any water and one by one her organs started shutting down. You can go alot longer without food than you can water.
Yes. You're right. Sorry.

Ein Deutscher']About time. She was nothing more than a zombie. :rolleyes:
i agree
but really, there were better ways to kill her :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :headbang:

As you know, Zooke, I'm not a Catholic ... I'm not really sure what I am. But out of respect for those who are unable to defend themselves, and out of respect for your faith, I promise I'll try to find a rosary and some instructions so I can join you in saying it.

It greatly, greatly saddens me to see how little respect others on here have for either the dead, the disabled, or the beliefs of others. I was getting very angry as I read some of the totally self-centered, vitriolic and hateful posts on this thread, and was going to really lash out at them, but decided that this would be the best way I could show my support for those whose very survival is dependent upon the whims of others, and to show my support for you ... my friend. ( HUG )

Hey-welcome back.

Yep.
This woman didnt start dying til the feeding tube was removed. She was alive and breathing on her own, her heart was beating without any assistance.This is worse than we treat our death penalty convicts.
Remind me to tell my wife in no uncertain terms that if I cant speak, to kill me.

There were those here who argued that being shot in the head was more "gruesome" than being killed by dehydration and starvation.

The question might be: "Would you rather die quickly and painlessly, or die slowly and in agony?"

Yep.
This woman didnt start dying til the feeding tube was removed. She was alive and breathing on her own, her heart was beating without any assistance.This is worse than we treat our death penalty convicts.
Remind me to tell my wife in no uncertain terms that if I cant speak, to kill me.

That's the only thing that annoyed me a little about this whole case. The 2 options were: Leave the feeding tube in and keep her in a vege state, or pull out out and have her starve to death.

One could argue if she could still feel or think in her current state of mind, but what surprises me is, that there are far more extreme cases of human suffering and bodies on machines with no brain function at all, who signed those "Do not recesitate" papers (or something), but who linger for years, even decades becuse of the ignorance of their families.
Of all those cases, why is the precedant fought over this one?

RIP Terri. I'm just hope you can do that, and your family can become one once again after all the differences.

She was a living, breathing human being who deserves no less respect than anyone else. As a Catholic, I am asking others with similar beliefs to join in offering prayers for her.

I think what you forget here is that they are giving her no less respect than anybody else. NONE! You bring a person into a thread and boom, respect of all sorts goes out the window. Maybe not by everybody, but enough ppl to make it worth leaving them out of forums.

As for me, I'm glad she is finally at peace instead of trapped in a useless shell. If she believed, then you should be happy. She is up with the Lord and his son, watching us and from what I read, she probably pities us for being here rather than there.

I know a girl who was born with spina bifida. She writes poetry. Is she a "properly functioning human being?" I have 2 lbs of metal holding my right leg together. Am I a "properly functioning human being?" One of my friends has a son who was born with Down's Syndrome. Is he a "properly functioning human being?"


Terri Shiavo's crime was that she was unable to speak, or move enough to engage in communication. And for that, she recieved a cruel and unusual death sentence. If she was able to speak and said "I dont want to live like this, please kill me!!!"- would she have been euthanized? Of course not.
I'm not a proponent of keeping a "vegetable" alive indefinately. But Ms.Shiavo wasnt a "vegetable". I believe that she was self aware and likely able to hear and think. I can only go by footage I have seen on TV and the testimony of doctors and nurses-THAT CARED FOR HER IN PERSON ON A DAILY BASIS. With that same evidence, one cannot even argue she wasnt aware and somewhat responsive.

SO- now, will everyone that cannot feed themselves and cannot speak-geriatric patients and infants-be disconnected from feeding/hydration?
With this precedent, will we start to execute death row convicts through this method?
I'm not ranting or emotional. I'm just disgusted.

Even as an agnostic, I have to agree that letting this collapse into a debate thread is sad. No matter what anyone thinks about this issue a person is dead. One that had enough intelligence at some point to understand love and to get married. I don't know enough details of the matter to fully comphrend the aspects of this issues (Was her life lived in pain? Could she respond to stimulus while on the feeding tube?) but I do know that she is dead and we should respect her memory instead of having bible humping converso-nuts and pansy pseudo-intellectual loserals attack each other like two Ethiopians fighting over a meatball sub.

now then gadges.

my tuppence worth: everyone has strong different opinions and to think that we're all gonna pray the rosary is way off the mark. if it doesn't mean anything to the person who is saying it then what's the point? far better surely that each person does something that is meaningful to them, and if somebody doesn't want to pray for her then who are we to criticise. that would be almost praying for the purposes of recognition, like "i told everybody to pray for her it was me wot did that"

SO- now, will everyone that cannot feed themselves and cannot speak-geriatric patients and infants-be disconnected from feeding/hydration?
With this precedent, will we start to execute death row convicts through this method?
I'm not ranting or emotional. I'm just disgusted.

We're kinder to dogs and cats.

the woman who was Terry Shaivo died over a decade ago. strange that nobody mourned her then, nor is anybody mourning the countless other PVS individuals who are being utterly ignored in the midst of this entire contraversy.

I'm fairly certain her family mourned the passing of her mind, now they're mourning the passing of her body.

I just don't understand, if the court decided to take action that they knew would eventually kill her, why didn't they just use a faster more humane method of doing it?

Terri Shiavo's crime was that she was unable to speak, or move enough to engage in communication. And for that, she recieved a cruel and unusual death sentence. If she was able to speak and said "I dont want to live like this, please kill me!!!"- would she have been euthanized? Of course not.
I'm not a proponent of keeping a "vegetable" alive indefinately. But Ms.Shiavo wasnt a "vegetable". I believe that she was self aware and likely able to hear and think. I can only go by footage I have seen on TV and the testimony of doctors and nurses-THAT CARED FOR HER IN PERSON ON A DAILY BASIS. With that same evidence, one cannot even argue she wasnt aware and somewhat responsive.

SO- now, will everyone that cannot feed themselves and cannot speak-geriatric patients and infants-be disconnected from feeding/hydration?
With this precedent, will we start to execute death row convicts through this method?
I'm not ranting or emotional. I'm just disgusted.

Did you see her brain scan which when compared to a normal brain scan showed just how much of her brain no longer functioned?

I'm curious of the autopsy.

I think we should pray for Terri Schiavo. However, I think we should be praying for more than her soul, but everyone's souls who are suffering. Here are a list of examples:

The poor, homeless, and abandoned in our home countries and abroad. Their minds are DEFINITELY there, and we don't have Congress intervening for them. They can even do it legally, at least in the US.

People who are suffering as a result of war. The US is inflicting some of it, and we are ignoring them too. We care about a virtually brain-dead woman on a tube, and don't care about our soldiers being car bombed, the innocent peoples in the countries we are in conflict with who die as a result.

The continued suffering of people in Sumatra and the surrounding islands in Indonesia, who are being hit with earthquakes once a day...fortunately, most of them are small, well, except that big one a few days ago...


This obsession with who deserves to be protected and who "deserves" to be prayed for needs to stop. It is clouding our judgement and distracting us from the real work we have to do as Christians (those of us who are) or as priveleged human beings in general. It's easy to glom onto the Schiavo bandwagon because we are being spoonfed compassion and led like media-driven sheep. However, it is the things that go on beyond our eyes that are the most pressing.

This was justa pathetic political gambit that involved a woman's tragic story. Let's get to the real business at hand, shall we?

Ge-Ren

That makes even more sense than what I just said! I love you.

Terri Shiavo's crime was that she was unable to speak, or move enough to engage in communication. And for that, she recieved a cruel and unusual death sentence. If she was able to speak and said "I dont want to live like this, please kill me!!!"- would she have been euthanized? Of course not.
I'm not a proponent of keeping a "vegetable" alive indefinately. But Ms.Shiavo wasnt a "vegetable".

i'm sorry, but yes, she was.




so anyway: looking at the root cause: bulimia.

is there going to be any attempt to stop the cause? of course not.

*sigh*

and her death really could have meant something. :(

what's our world coming to when such a thing like murder can be justified as "mercy"?

what's our world coming to when such a thing like murder can be justified as "mercy"?

You're looking at it in a very biased way

what's our world coming to when such a thing like murder can be justified as "mercy"?
Perhaps coming to the same point that Hitler's Third Riech came to early in its "thousand years." He began by starving all those he considered to not be "a properly functioning human being."

Cheers, lad!
I grew up in a predominantly muslim/sikh town and still don't know how to spell it. *blush*

I'm most interested by this debate.
Even more so by Zooke's 'Boot off' (as we call it in Yorkshire) about other people expressing their opinions.

Zooke, dear boy... Has opinion been outlawed by the catholic church?!

FYI...it's MRS Zooke...54 year old American female

I started this thread for others to join me in prayer for this poor woman. That was the only purpose of this thread...a spiritual coming together. Although there are several people who are not religious, many of us are. This is a thread to allow all people of faith, all faiths, to come together in prayer and meditation.

As for questions on the Rosary...it is not only a long litany of prayers, it is also a few minutes of meditation and reflection. I pray the Rosary twice a day. First time while I get ready for work to ask for God's guidance and intervention. Second time at the end of the day to thank Him for his wisdom and love and to make my intentions for the next day. I also pray my Rosary when I want to ask for special intervention for someone else or in times of distress and confusion.

I just don't understand, if the court decided to take action that they knew would eventually kill her, why didn't they just use a faster more humane method of doing it?


because the religious right wing nutjobs outlawed it.

euthinasia is illegal. :rolleyes:

i'm sorry, but yes, she was.
:(

a vegetable? she could move! couldnt you see on the news, she could make her eyes follow things!

I know a girl who was born with spina bifida. She writes poetry. Is she a "properly functioning human being?" I have 2 lbs of metal holding my right leg together. Am I a "properly functioning human being?" One of my friends has a son who was born with Down's Syndrome. Is he a "properly functioning human being?"

Yes. But the people you mention can all survive without a feeding tube.

because the religious right wing nutjobs outlawed it.

euthinasia is illegal. :rolleyes:

Plenty of left wing people aren't in favor of euthanasia either. No one "outlawed" it - the way the system works, you have to pass a law to "allow" it.

There was nothing to stop Mr. Schiavo from flying her to the Netherlands and having her put to sleep there. Or going to Oregon and getting a lethal prescription from a physician - and administering the pill through her feeding tube himself.

You're looking at it in a very biased way

im not being biased... it sure seemed more like a murder to me.

Perhaps coming to the same point that Hitler's Third Riech came to early in its "thousand years." He began by starving all those he considered to not be "a properly functioning human being."


Its terrifying to think of how "a properly functioning human being" can be interpreted. I hope I am complying. I hope I fit the description. I guess its in the eye of the beholder. I just hope my beholder isnt wearing black robes.

what's our world coming to when such a thing like murder can be justified as "mercy"?


it's just that: mercy.

sorry, but some people value quality of life, and not just life no matter what.


it's the crowd that is morbidly afraid of death (pun not intended)

they just don't see it as another turning point in our existance, no more or less important than birth or puberty.

they see it as something that must be avioded at all costs, no matter what.

The thing is, the logic of teh religious viewpoint doesn't make sense. It's a sort of "God created you, so he can take you away!" opinion. If they took a step back and looked carefully, surely it would be understood that if you're suffering you don't WANT to be alive. I think every human being has the fundamental right to choose whether they live or die. I realise she couldn't voice her opinion, and I don't know the details (she may have voiced at an earlier stage in her life that if she was to end up in such a state that she would want to be killed) but can anyone here honestly HONESTLY say that if they were in the same condition they'd want to live? I know I certainly can't.

NB: If euthanasia interests you, watch the Oscar-winning film 'Mar Adentro' (with subtitles, it's likely you'll only understand it if you're from Galicia)

it's just that: mercy.

sorry, but some people value quality of life, and not just life no matter what.


it's the crowd that is morbidly afraid of death (pun not intended)

they just don't see it as another turning point in our existance, no more or less important than birth or puberty.

they see it as something that must be avioded at all costs, no matter what.
"MERCY" my foot.

FYI...it's MRS Zooke...54 year old American female

I started this thread for others to join me in prayer for this poor woman. That was the only purpose of this thread...a spiritual coming together. Although there are several people who are not religious, many of us are. This is a thread to allow all people of faith, all faiths, to come together in prayer and meditation.

As for questions on the Rosary...it is not only a long litany of prayers, it is also a few minutes of meditation and reflection. I pray the Rosary twice a day. First time while I get ready for work to ask for God's guidance and intervention. Second time at the end of the day to thank Him for his wisdom and love and to make my intentions for the next day. I also pray my Rosary when I want to ask for special intervention for someone else or in times of distress and confusion.

You're right-and this is your thread. So, out of respect to you and Terri Shiavo, I am going to stop contributing to this argument. I'm religious, she had my prayers since I first heard the story and she'll have another now.
And also a prayer that neither I or anyone I know and care about ever finds themselves in a similar circumstance.
Best wishes.

"MERCY" my foot.

Could you explain yourself a little further please?

Blimey, that's amazingly intricate.
How often do catholics do the 'full rosery' then???
It's a very complex thing to do... What does it represent?

I just wanna' know out of interest, is all as I've never really looked into catholacism.

Is it easy to tell I was raised 'Church of england'?! :rolleyes:

Zooke, maybe I could just point out summat to you... I don't know any Muslims, Seikhs(sp) or Protestants with with a rosery so I'm not so sure that they (or I for that matter) will be joining in.

Cheers.


The rosary is actually from the middle ages, and was used as a learning tool. since books were expensive at the time, a church might have only one bible, and they wouldn't want to lend it out, it might not come back! so people used the rosary. each 'decade' you pray, you are supposed to reflect on a different part of the 'mystery.' for instance, the first decade, i think, is about the immaculate conception. i'll fill in more if someone else doesn't, but i don't have my handbook handy.
The actual prayer itself is nothing more that a repitition of certain prayers. first, you make the sign of the cross, say the 'glory be' then the apostle's creed. each large bead is an 'our father' and all the beads in the decades are hail marys. at least, that's what i remember. like i said, i don't have my handbook with me.

Perhaps coming to the same point that Hitler's Third Riech came to early in its "thousand years." He began by starving all those he considered to not be "a properly functioning human being."

Your brand of fundamentalist insanity scares me as much as a return of the Nazis would. Euthanasia can be justified, and allowing Terri Schiavo to die was probably the kindest thing. She was stuck in a hospital bed, being forced to eke out an existence because of a tube, forcing her to live in a state where she could do nothing.

The only question that I have is "how do you know the person is really devoid of brain activity on a conscious or semi-conscious level?"

I was watching a show on brain-computer interfaces, and they showed a young man who was in his teens. He was unable to move anything except his eyes. For years, he was considered to have little more intellect than a 3-month old baby.

Then a university decided to wire up sensors to his eyes. He was immediately able to control a computer cursor.

Turns out that he was completely aware of everything around him, and understood English. He's apparently gone from zero education to honors level in high school inside of a year.

Only his parents thought he was truly conscious and capable of intellectual thought. His doctors (the original ones) were convinced he was nearly a vegetable. He also is fed by a feeding tube.

Good thing those doctors at the university came along. Otherwise, Demented would insist on an act of mercy, and unplug him immediately.

Does anyone know what she died of?

Overdose of media circus.

a vegetable? she could move! couldnt you see on the news, she could make her eyes follow things!

If that's even true, it's just a reflex response. A basic instinct separate from the areas which deal with higher reasoning in the brain. The areas in her brain which died over a decade ago. The person known as Terri Shiavo died years ago - what was left was a shell of a human being.

a vegetable? she could move! couldnt you see on the news, she could make her eyes follow things!

Human Bio 101:

there are two major parts to the brain: the cerebral cortex (the 'thinking brain') and the brain stem (the 'reptile brain' [because, evolutarianily speaking, it is the part that has been with us since we were reptiles. the reptiles just never developed farther, and the mammals did])

the thinking brain is what holds memories, allows us to make concious decisions, and think. the reptile brain controls heartbeat, breathing, swallowing, and other unconcious controls.

terry's cerebral cortex had been starved of oxygen, and the vast majority of it died.

since dead cells take up less room than living ones, the pressurized spinal column fluid rushed into the vacuum, effectively replacing her thinking brain with a sort of spinal fluid/dead brain cell soup.

the 'reptile brain' however, remained almost unscathed.

except for the inability to swallow, all of her vital signs were working fine.

her brain as a whole, however, had been reduced to the cognative power of a goldfish.

Wow. Now she can be on MTV Unplugged...

Could you explain yourself a little further please?

yep. Euthanasia is only justified as mercy if that person is absolutely a vegetable or on the brink of death, unlike Terri. and anyways, STARVING HER TO DEATH? UGH! I CRINGE THINKING ABOUT IT!

the woman who was Terry Shaivo died over a decade ago. strange that nobody mourned her then, nor is anybody mourning the countless other PVS individuals who are being utterly ignored in the midst of this entire contraversy.


Well said. Now that her body has finally died, her spirit that was trapped inside is finally free to move on to the next plane. I hope it serves her better than this one did.

the Grokdoc

...Thus ends one of the stupidest chapters in our history. The fact that the entire population was infatuated with one brain-dead woman is ridiculous. Thousands of people die every day and nobody cares. In the scheme of things, she didn't matter at all. She was just another worthless life.

The only question that I have is "how do you know the person is really devoid of brain activity on a conscious or semi-conscious level?"

I was watching a show on brain-computer interfaces, and they showed a young man who was in his teens. He was unable to move anything except his eyes. For years, he was considered to have little more intellect than a 3-month old baby.

Then a university decided to wire up sensors to his eyes. He was immediately able to control a computer cursor.

Turns out that he was completely aware of everything around him, and understood English. He's apparently gone from zero education to honors level in high school inside of a year.

Only his parents thought he was truly conscious and capable of intellectual thought. His doctors (the original ones) were convinced he was nearly a vegetable. He also is fed by a feeding tube.

Good thing those doctors at the university came along. Otherwise, Demented would insist on an act of mercy, and unplug him immediately.


Oh, so this should be the guideline for all such cases? Hook them up to a computer and see if they can move the cursor?

I guess I worded the original post of this thread poorly. My intention was to ask other Catholics to join me in praying the Rosary and non-Catholics and people of non-Christian faith to join in prayer, reflection and thought. If someone wanted to pray the Rosary, but were not familiar with it, I posted a link to an instruction and explanation of these prayers. This was not a debate or opinion thread. This was a thread for reflection and spiritual unity. Please, let it be that.

...Thus ends one of the stupidest chapters in our history. The fact that the entire population was infatuated with one brain-dead woman is ridiculous. Thousands of people die every day and nobody cares. In the scheme of things, she didn't matter at all. She was just another worthless life.

And at the risk of sounding callous, I agree.

Good thing those doctors at the university came along. Otherwise, Demented would insist on an act of mercy, and unplug him immediately.

I don't think that's the idea. She wasn't killed because she wasn't worthwhile to society anymore, she was killed because she was suffering. I agree, euthanasia isn't an issue to be taken lightly, and there should be conditions applied before it's carried out. In the case of this boy, obviously he has control of his mind and practically nothing else. If he was deeply unhappy in this state (which I would be I can assure you) and wanted to die, I would have no qualms whatsoever about it. It should be his choice, and it should be something that those around him consider. Not being funny, but they could always ask him "Do you want to die? Blink once for yes and twice for no." It should be HIS decision, not God's.

I guess I worded the original post of this thread poorly. My intention was to ask other Catholics to join me in praying the Rosary and non-Catholics and people of non-Christian faith to join in prayer, reflection and thought. If someone wanted to pray the Rosary, but were not familiar with it, I posted a link to an instruction and explanation of these prayers. This was not a debate or opinion thread. This was a thread for reflection and spiritual unity. Please, let it be that.

'k. im protestant, but still, i will try 2 give my prayers to her and her family.

Brother Paul just announced that Terri Schiavo has passed away. She was Catholic, and I would like other Catholics, and non-Catholics, on this forum to join me in praying the Rosary for her.

In the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit...

http://www.familyrosary.org/main/rosary-how.php

May she rest in peace :'(

yep. Euthanasia is only justified as mercy if that person is absolutely a vegetable or on the brink of death, unlike Terri. and anyways, STARVING HER TO DEATH? UGH! I CRINGE THINKING ABOUT IT!

I'm sure you know better than all those court appointed doctors who agreed she was PVS. After all, they only went to med school. I'm sure your brand of wild, unbased speculation is far more accurate than their educated opinion based on years of studying and experience.

I'm sure you know better than all those court appointed doctors who agreed she was PVS. After all, they only went to med school. I'm sure your brand of wild, unbased speculation is far more accurate than their educated opinion based on years of studying and experience.

You win the internet with that post.

The only question that I have is "how do you know the person is really devoid of brain activity on a conscious or semi-conscious level?"

I was watching a show on brain-computer interfaces, and they showed a young man who was in his teens. He was unable to move anything except his eyes. For years, he was considered to have little more intellect than a 3-month old baby.

Then a university decided to wire up sensors to his eyes. He was immediately able to control a computer cursor.

Turns out that he was completely aware of everything around him, and understood English. He's apparently gone from zero education to honors level in high school inside of a year.

Only his parents thought he was truly conscious and capable of intellectual thought. His doctors (the original ones) were convinced he was nearly a vegetable. He also is fed by a feeding tube.

Good thing those doctors at the university came along. Otherwise, Demented would insist on an act of mercy, and unplug him immediately.


and no other tests were done? no brain scans? MRI's?


there is an interesting story i heard from my history teacher:

a man came back from WWII as a quadruple amputee. his eyes were gone and his mouth had been reduced to a giant scab wound, and they were pretty sure that he was deaf, too.

they brought him to a hospital to see what could be done, but wherever they put him, he would always wriggle up to a wall, or the headboard and start banging his head on the wall.

they eventually just tied him down.

one doctor came along to see him, and untied him, because he wanted to see if it was true.

it was. he immediately wormed his way to the wall and started banging his head.

unlike all the other doctors, this one knew morse code, and could understand him:

"kill me"

no arms, no legs, no tongue, no eyes, no ears.

the only way that is different from terry is that this man could understand his condition. they're both unplugged from their senses, him at one end and terry at another.

Brother Paul just announced that Terri Schiavo has passed away.

I don't belong to any religion, but I know she has gone to a better place. Anything is better than lying in a bed for 15 years.

I'm sure you know better than all those court appointed doctors who agreed she was PVS. After all, they only went to med school. I'm sure your brand of wild, unbased speculation is far more accurate than their educated opinion based on years of studying and experience.
And based on a previous post, I showed that there are cases where multiple doctors are completely wrong.

PVS is not always unrecoverable. It depends on the case and the individual's injuries. In her case, she might not have been recoverable - but there are some who do recover. Should we then always unplug people with PVS, because we don't want to wait around that long?

Doctors are wrong sometimes. They kill more people by accident than firearms each year in the US. That's why they call it "practice".

There are three professions you can engage in and be wrong and screw up and still keep your job: lawyer, doctor, and weatherman. In this case, we had the first two trying to decide what to do with a patient. She would probably have been better off with a few weathermen thrown in.

I'm curious of the autopsy.

Makes 2 of us

It's about damn time. So long! She should have died years ago, and she would have if it weren't for those meddling parents!

The rosary is for catholics. I am not catholic. All she'll get from me is a hearty "Good riddance." This entire situation was a total waste of time perpetrated by religious whackos, most of whom had never met Terri.

Yes. But the people you mention can all survive without a feeding tube.

The Pope himself has a feeding tube. Is he a normal functioning human being?

Sorry Zooke but I had to say it about him. I do respect the pope and what he stands for! I mean no offense.

yep. Euthanasia is only justified as mercy if that person is absolutely a vegetable or on the brink of death, unlike Terri. and anyways, STARVING HER TO DEATH? UGH! I CRINGE THINKING ABOUT IT!

She needed help staying alive. Surely, that indicates the brink of death for 15 years. As for starving her to death, if you'd read my earlier posts you would have seen that I find that disgusting too. Prisoners on death row die a more dignified death and it's awful, but I agree with Kopolo, she's gone to a better place. Now stop arguing about it, please. I feel for her family, but I bet she's bloody glad. She's probably finally happy.

and no other tests were done? no brain scans? MRI's?


there is an interesting story i heard from my history teacher:

a man came back from WWII as a quadruple amputee. his eyes were gone and his mouth had been reduced to a giant scab wound, and they were pretty sure that he was deaf, too.

they brought him to a hospital to see what could be done, but wherever they put him, he would always wriggle up to a wall, or the headboard and start banging his head on the wall.

they eventually just tied him down.

one doctor came along to see him, and untied him, because he wanted to see if it was true.

it was. he immediately wormed his way to the wall and started banging his head.

unlike all the other doctors, this one knew morse code, and could understand him:

"kill me"

no arms, no legs, no tongue, no eyes, no ears.

the only way that is different from terry is that this man could understand his condition. they're both unplugged from their senses, him at one end and terry at another.

That's not a story from a history teacher. That's the plot from the movie (and book) Johnny Got His Gun.

The doctors who worked on the boy did brain scans and MRIs. They were wrong. The doctors who worked on Terri could have been wrong as well.

Maybe they were wrong, maybe they weren't. Notice that I'm not arguing from a religious point of view. I'm trying to say that medicine is not a perfect science - it's not like we wave the tricorder over her and say, "she's dead, Jim".

Even a group of doctors can be wrong. But no one wants to admit that a doctor could be wrong.

That's not a story from a history teacher. That's the plot from the movie (and book) Johnny Got His Gun.

The doctors who worked on the boy did brain scans and MRIs. They were wrong. The doctors who worked on Terri could have been wrong as well.

Maybe they were wrong, maybe they weren't. Notice that I'm not arguing from a religious point of view. I'm trying to say that medicine is not a perfect science - it's not like we wave the tricorder over her and say, "she's dead, Jim".

Even a group of doctors can be wrong. But no one wants to admit that a doctor could be wrong.


no, that's a story the history teacher told us.

perhaps the screenwriters heard it too? ;)

PVS is not always unrecoverable. It depends on the case and the individual's injuries. In her case, she might not have been recoverable - but there are some who do recover. Should we then always unplug people with PVS, because we don't want to wait around that long?

You seem to think that it was OUR decision. It wasn't. It was Terry's decision. This whole case just goes to show one thing: Fill out your Living Wills and have them notarized and make sure your family knows where to find them.

...Thus ends one of the stupidest chapters in our history. The fact that the entire population was infatuated with one brain-dead woman is ridiculous. Thousands of people die every day and nobody cares. In the scheme of things, she didn't matter at all. She was just another worthless life.
wow, that's cruel.

That's not a story from a history teacher. That's the plot from the movie (and book) Johnny Got His Gun.

The doctors who worked on the boy did brain scans and MRIs. They were wrong. The doctors who worked on Terri could have been wrong as well.

Maybe they were wrong, maybe they weren't. Notice that I'm not arguing from a religious point of view. I'm trying to say that medicine is not a perfect science - it's not like we wave the tricorder over her and say, "she's dead, Jim".

Even a group of doctors can be wrong. But no one wants to admit that a doctor could be wrong.

So we trust religious nuts over science?Makes sense to me.

The Pope himself has a feeding tube. Is he a normal functioning human being?

Is he missing a giant chunk of his brain?

Doctors are wrong sometimes. They kill more people by accident than firearms each year in the US. That's why they call it "practice".

I can't believe someone can have such little respect for people who dedicate their lives to saving others.

She needed help staying alive. Surely, that indicates the brink of death for 15 years. As for starving her to death, if you'd read my earlier posts you would have seen that I find that disgusting too. Prisoners on death row die a more dignified death and it's awful, but I agree with Kopolo, she's gone to a better place. Now stop arguing about it, please. I feel for her family, but I bet she's bloody glad. She's probably finally happy.
amen.

FYI...it's MRS Zooke...54 year old American female

Reeto, accept my appologies Mrs Zed (English pronounciation of the letter your lot so lovingly call Zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee).

I started this thread for others to join me in prayer for this poor woman. That was the only purpose of this thread...a spiritual coming together. Although there are several people who are not religious, many of us are. This is a thread to allow all people of faith, all faiths, to come together in prayer and meditation.


Then that would be fair enough.
However...
The following quote doesn't say that:

She was Catholic, and I would like other Catholics, and non-Catholics, on this forum to join me in praying the Rosary for her.



Now then, I was raised a Good C of E boy and I have newly begun to follow an ancient religion of the land. Older than the britons (so 'reportedly' older than Christianity).
What you are looking for is people who are not Catholic to follow a Catholic ritual. This is pure madness and defeates your point above about people who are not religious making use of what they desire.

I'm with Jeberfant... do what you will for who you will.
Don't be sheep, people!!

now then gadges.


lets all kiss and make up now.

jake's fact of the day: my girlfriend is called terri. it's a wonderful name.

I was responding to another poster's idiocy about "a properly functioning human being." The point I was trying to make is that when we begin to allow judgments about what does and does not constitute "a properly functioning human being," we start down the most slippery slope of all ... deciding who gets to live and who has to die. Who gets to make that decision? What will be their basis for making it?

Many on here are concerned about the poor, the homeless, the dispossessed, and rightly so. Will deciding who is "a properly functioning human being" eventually lead us to conclude that because the poor have such terrible lives they don't fit the criteria? Yes, that's an extreme example, but that's what lies at the end of this particular road. What about those terribly maimed while attempting to preserve the lives of others? Is a quadraplegic "a properly functioning human being?" What about gays? If they marry ( something I think should be their decisiion and their decision alone ) they can't have children without "extrodinary means." Does that mean they're not "properly functioning human beings?"

What about non-viable foetuses? Are they "properly functioning human beings?" If so, we commit mass murder. What about those who are viable but become aborted after "partial birth?" Same thing applies ... if they constitute a "properly functioning human being," we are condoning murder.

What are we going to do when someone clones a human being, something that may in fact, have already happened? Is a clone "a properly functioning human being?" If not, should cloning not be a capital offense?

This is not all about "media hype," or the ravings of "far right-wing fundamentalists." It's about deciding what is and is not a human being.

You've managed to answer those with a fair few religious views, whilst saying it isn't about fundamentalists. Nice.

I guess I worded the original post of this thread poorly. My intention was to ask other Catholics to join me in praying the Rosary and non-Catholics and people of non-Christian faith to join in prayer, reflection and thought. If someone wanted to pray the Rosary, but were not familiar with it, I posted a link to an instruction and explanation of these prayers. This was not a debate or opinion thread. This was a thread for reflection and spiritual unity. Please, let it be that.

You tried Zooke! I'm sorry if I helped a debate along. :(

Dear God,

I lift up the woman of Terri Shiavo to your care. She was a joy in the lives of her parents and had her life unexpectantly cut short. I pray for her parents who are going through this time of grieving and I ask that you spread your arms and comfort them and all that knew her.

In your name I pray! Amen.

Oh come on. She already died 15 years ago. After everyone knew there was no possible way that she could come back, she should have been allowed to die, and no longer kept in the prison of her body.

So we trust religious nuts over science?Makes sense to me.
That's not what I'm saying and you know it.

I guess I worded the original post of this thread poorly. My intention was to ask other Catholics to join me in praying the Rosary and non-Catholics and people of non-Christian faith to join in prayer, reflection and thought. If someone wanted to pray the Rosary, but were not familiar with it, I posted a link to an instruction and explanation of these prayers. This was not a debate or opinion thread. This was a thread for reflection and spiritual unity. Please, let it be that.
I have doubts that you'll be able to get this thread back on track without getting the mods to make some serious fixes to it. I'd think your best bet is probably to let this thread take its own course and make another thread titled something to the effect of "Public Prayer for Terry Schiavo".

That's not a story from a history teacher. That's the plot from the movie (and book) Johnny Got His Gun.

The doctors who worked on the boy did brain scans and MRIs. They were wrong. The doctors who worked on Terri could have been wrong as well.

Maybe they were wrong, maybe they weren't. Notice that I'm not arguing from a religious point of view. I'm trying to say that medicine is not a perfect science - it's not like we wave the tricorder over her and say, "she's dead, Jim".

Even a group of doctors can be wrong. But no one wants to admit that a doctor could be wrong.


I'm a medical student. And you are right--doctors can certainly be wrong. But then, when they testified they wouldn't have spoken in absolutes but would have presented matters to a reasonable degree of medical certainty. One of Terry's CTs is available online and I took a glance at it. The first thing that went through my mind was "Are we sure this is someone who is still alive despite machines breathing and eating for her?" The fluid spaces were huge and there was almost no appreciable amount of cortex left.

Further, the position that Terry was constantly in wth her hands drawn up to her chest is what is called the decorticate position. It basically means that everything above the middle half of her mid-brain (the top portion of the brain stem) was gone. I've heard of miracle recoveries--but never one from a decorticate state. I would say it goes beyond a reasonable degree of certainty into a near assured degree. Terry was never going to get well. I wish it were otherwise, I truly do. I consider it a failure of modern medicine that we couldn't help her--but the truth is that we couldn't. In cases such as those, it is what the patient would have wanted that should matter. Autonomy is a must in patient care. It doesn't matter what relatives want, only the patient. And the courts all found that that is what she would have wanted.

I can't believe someone can have such little respect for people who dedicate their lives to saving others.
I dedicated my life to saving others, you included. Do you respect me?

That's not what I'm saying and you know it.

No.

I dedicated my life to saving others, you included. Do you respect me?

How?

I wish it were otherwise, I truly do.

Why do so many people ignore this?
Why do they need to pretend people *want* her to suffer and die?

About freaking time. Mabye people will shut the hell up about it, finally.

The only reason anyone even cared besides her husband is cause her parents are drama whoring control freaks.

Is he missing a giant chunk of his brain?

I've believed this for years.

You've managed to answer those with a fair few religious views, whilst saying it isn't about fundamentalists. Nice.
I don't understand this comment. Please elaborate.

I can't believe someone can have such little respect for people who dedicate their lives to saving others.

Why should I respect the people who kill more people in the US than intentional firearm murders?

One quarter of deaths occurring in hospitals can be prevented (Dubois and al. 1988).

A third of surgery and procedures applied in hospital expose patients to unnecessary risk (Brooke and al. 1990).

A third of drugs given to patients are not medically advisable (Brooke and al. 1990).

A third of laboratory tests abnormal results is not taken into account by doctors (Brooke and al. 1990).

Medical files monitored of in-patients highlight an alarming errors incidence, with half of errors occurring in surgical services (Leapen and al. 1991, Gavande et al.. 1999).

On top of these observations, there are to be added, that many practised surgery are not adapted, or not even medically advisable (Chassin 1987, Berstein 1993, Phelps 1993, Kassires 1993, Caplan 1991 and Redelmeir 1990).

In England, each year, after cancer (156.000 deaths) and cardiac affections (140.000 deaths), medical error is the third most frequent death cause.

In England, medical errors kill 40.000 patients each year. (more than are murdered by firearms in the US) It is approximately four times more than all other types of accidents.

Additionally, in British hospitals, each year, 280.000 patients suffer from drugs prescription errors, drugs overdoses and hospital acquired infections.

These patients must, because of these incidents, remain hospitalized on average for six additional days. This is extremely expensive. As always, the consequence is an insurance premiums or tax increase for all patients.

The true tragedy of current hospital medicine, is that there are many errors, in particular in hospitals, these errors repeat themself because they are not, often still, even indexed, that they are not analyzed, and because one does not seek to eliminate them systematically. However anesthesiologists have, them, makes the proof that a doctor could, in a hospital environment, learn from his errors.This progress was obtained thanks to a systematic approach aiming at reducing the errors count, that in a cultural environment where it became natural and without risk to submit his errors, to call in question the system, to change the system and to work about true adverse events causes. Safety is, therefore, in hospitals too, a business of entreprise culture.

Let us see more details concerning some recent studies.

The broadest study about adverse events is that called Harvard Medical Practice Study, a medical practice study of more than 30.000 patients at their exit of hospital, exits selected by chance in 51 hospitals chosen by chance in New York State (Brennman and Al 1991). Adverse events characterized by hospitalisation prolongation, or infirmity at the time of hospital exit, occurred in 3.7 percent of hospitalizations. The adverse events proportion due to errors (i.e., avoidable adverse events) was 58 percent. The adverse events due to negligence proportion was 27.6 percent. Although the majority of these adverse events caused a disability lasting less than 6 months, 13.6 percent of these adverse events were at patients death origin and 2,6 percent caused permanent invalidating damage. Most frequent complications were due to drugs (19 percent), followed by wounds infections (14 percent) and technical complications (13 percent).

The results of Medical Practice of Harvard Study in New York were recently corroborated by a study from 1992 of adverse events in Colorado and Utah, (Thomas et al., 2000). This study examined medical files of a random sample of 15.000 patients at their hospital exit, of a hospital representative sample in these two states. Adverse events occurred in 2,9 percent of hospitalizations in each state. Approximately four of five of these adverse events occurred during patients hospital stay, and the others occurred before hospital admission, in doctors offices, in patients home or in any other place apart from hospitals. The avoidable adverse events due to negligence proportion was 29,2 percent. The avoidable adverse events proportion was 53 percent. Just as in New York study, more than 50 percent of adverse events were represented by minor and transitory lesions. But in New York the study highlighted that 13,6 percent of adverse events led to death, compared to 6,6 percent in Colorado and Utah. In New York, approximately one in four adverse events by negligence led to death, whereas in Colorado and Utah, death was the consequence of approximately one adverse event by negligence on 11. The factors which could explain the difference between the two studies include: change in time of population health, differences between states populations and health systems.

The New York study and the Colorado and Utah study identified a subset of avoidable adverse events which satisfy the criteria applied by courts to determine if there were negligence. It is important to note that some of these cases could be caused to people receiving care and treatment by incompetent or physicaly or psychicaly decreased health professionals. PatientProtect.com estimates that many of these adverse events could have probably been avoided, if better care systems had been set up. The extrapolation of Colorado and Utah results, applied to more than 33,6 millions hospital admissions of the United States in 1997, implies that at least 44,000 Americans die in hospitals each year, because of avoidable medical errors (Thomas et al., 1999 and 2000). If one bases oneself on the New York study, annual number of deaths due to medical error can reach 98,000. In any event, even the lowest evaluation represents a figure higher than the number of deaths ascribable to the eighth cause of mortality in the USA.

Two studies based on medical files examination and other sources of information, such as health professionals reports, highlighted even higher rates of adverse events occurring in hospitals. Thus for example, in a study of 815 consecutive patients in a general medicine service of teaching hospitals, one noted that 36 percent of these patients suffered from an iatrogenic affection, defined as a disease which resulted from a diagnostic procedure, or any form of treatment concerning the affection from which the patient (Steel et al., 1981) suffered at first. Of these 815 patients, nine percent had a iatrogenic disease which threatened their life, or caused a very significant disability, and for two more other percent, the iatrogenic affection contributed to patient death.

In a study of 1,047 patients admitted in two intensive care services and one surgical unit of a large teaching hospital, 480 patients (45,8 percent) suffered from an adverse event. In this last study, an adverse event was defined as a situation in which an inadequate decision was made, whereas a suitable alternative could have been selected (Andrews and al. 1997). For 185 of these patients (17.7 percent), the adverse event was serious, producing disability or death. The probability of being a victim of an adverse event increased approximately six percent for each day of hospitalization. A reason more to leave the hospital as quickly as possible!

An analysis in 1991 concerning 203 heart failure incidents in teaching hospitals, highlighted that 14 percent of these heart failures were due to iatrogenic complications, and that more than half of the latter could have been avoided. In a study of 44.603 patients operated between 1977 and 1990 in a great hospital complex, 2.428 patients (5,4 percent) suffered from complications. Almost half of these complications were due to medical errors (McGuire and al. 1992). 749 of these patients died during their hospitalization. 7.5 percent of these deaths were due to errors.

Why do so many people ignore this?
Why do they need to pretend people *want* her to suffer and die?

Because its easier to hate people who disagree with them if they villify us as cold blooded killers who have no respect for human life or suffering than it is to believe that maybe we just have a worldview that differs from the one they've built up as perfect.

Its easier to not listen to them or give their views a chance--and thereby have their own views challenged--if anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a blackhearted killer than it is to consider that maybe you are wrong.

Instead of trying to see the similarities which might give you more patience and tolerance, they only want to look at the differences because hate is simply easier than love or tolerance.

Why should I respect the people who kill more people in the US than intentional firearm murders?


What? That makes little sense, firearms murder isn't a huge thing...

Why should I respect the people who kill more people in the US than intentional firearm murders?

Because disrespecting them isn't going to make those people magically come back to life.

I don't understand this comment. Please elaborate.

When you talk about aborting foetuses (sp?) you give the often religiously informed view that it is murder. Give me a second to look at the post again and I'll elaborate further.

Because its easier to hate people who disagree with them if they villify them as cold blooded killers who no respect for human life or suffering.

Its easier to not listen to them or give their views a chance--and thereby have their own views challenged--if anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a blackhearted killer.

"there's nobody blinder than those that hold their eyes shut" -somebody or other (or i possibly could have just made it up.)

Yes. But the people you mention can all survive without a feeding tube.


The Pope himself has a feeding tube. Is he a normal functioning human being?

Sorry Zooke but I had to say it about him. I do respect the pope and what he stands for! I mean no offense.

Are you going to answer this Ankhmet?

She is in a better place.

Why should I respect the people who kill more people in the US than intentional firearm murders?

One quarter of deaths occurring in hospitals can be prevented (Dubois and al. 1988).

A third of surgery and procedures applied in hospital expose patients to unnecessary risk (Brooke and al. 1990).

A third of drugs given to patients are not medically advisable (Brooke and al. 1990).

A third of laboratory tests abnormal results is not taken into account by doctors (Brooke and al. 1990).

Medical files monitored of in-patients highlight an alarming errors incidence, with half of errors occurring in surgical services (Leapen and al. 1991, Gavande et al.. 1999).



Thanks for all the copying and pasting.

Firstly, you are using out-of-date information (most of your quoted case studies are from around 1990 - unsurprisingly there have been a few changes since then).
Secondly, it's true that there are a lot of careless accidents in hospitals, but then again, what do you expect from over-worked, under-paid, under-slept people with a shitty budget?
Thirdly, you said it yourself. INTENTIONAL. Aren't all issues of ethics, morales, and feelings to do with intentions? These people try their best to SAVE people. Part of the reason why there's been such an uproar about this case is due to the misconception of INTENTIONS. I just hope to God that one day, you'll need a doctor there for you, and they'll get you through whatever it is you need to get through and then maybe you'll see a bit of sense.

This is in reply to Xanax opinion. Well stated my friend. This situation has gone well beyond any state of reality. It has transcended any moral or ethical bounds and people need to step back and allow their fellow human beings their inherent right to be just that, human beings. No decison will ever be perfect, nor will it please everyone interested. My heartfelt grief and sorrow goes out to the entire Schiavo family, the Schindlers amd Michael on the loss of someone who they abviously loved and cared for very much. Human misery and suffering is all around us, if you care to take a moment and look around. To have this become the absolute circus that it has is unbelievably pathetic. Lets let these people have their privacy now and try and put their lives back together again. Terri is with her God now, and far better off than any of us!

What? That makes little sense, firearms murder isn't a huge thing...
Let's go back over the numbers:

In the UK, in a single year, doctors kill 40,000 patients accidentally. Whoops!

In the US, in a single year (1997) 18,209 people were murdered with firearms.

You'll hear most people on this forum say, "oh, the US is such a horrible, violent place - why don't they do something about the killing?"

Well, the figures for accidental medical death in the US is, in some studies, as high as 180,000 people per year.

Why isn't there anyone getting upset about that?

Are you sure you trust your doctor?

Reeto, accept my appologies Mrs Zed (English pronounciation of the letter your lot so lovingly call Zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee).



Then that would be fair enough.
However...
The following quote doesn't say that:

Now then, I was raised a Good C of E boy and I have newly begun to follow an ancient religion of the land. Older than the britons (so 'reportedly' older than Christianity).
What you are looking for is people who are not Catholic to follow a Catholic ritual. This is pure madness and defeates your point above about people who are not religious making use of what they desire.

You're right, my original post as it was written, does seem to be aimed at only Catholics and those willing to pray a Catholic litany. I added the link for those who wanted more information on what the Rosary was, but it made it look like an instruction of what they needed to do. That was far from my intentions...I didn't take the time to compose a better statement. My bad.

This is an extemely emotional topic for me for personal reasons. I have very strong opinions on this, not from a strictly religious view, but from the perspective of a parent who lost a child when they suffered severe brain damage. I think that this issue has affected many people in differing ways and has sparked some intense debate. But, through it all, Terri Schiavo was the person of topic. I was simply asking everyone of any and all faiths and those with no faith, to stand in respect of this woman's passing with prayer, meditation, and solidarity. I also asked that this thread not be turned into another oft-repeated debate. That debate could have been continued in another thread. I'm truly saddened that there is not enough respect and consideration for others for even that simple request to have been honored.

EDIT: Zooke is short for Zookeeper. I have always had a love for animals and share my home with several. Thank God for a good vacuum sweeper.

She is in a better place.

Unless, of course, the husband was right and she did indeed want to be taken off of life support. In which case it's suicide and she's burning in Hell. The Ironic Punishment Department is probably working on some sort of feeding tube of their own. A feeding tube that continually fills her to the point of bursting.

When you talk about aborting foetuses (sp?) you give the often religiously informed view that it is murder. Give me a second to look at the post again and I'll elaborate further.
I'm not anti-abortion. I have a visceral dislike of it, but see no other way to handle it than to allow the mother to decide. I used it as just another example.

This is a piece of supremely good news.

Mrs Schiavo is no longer being made to exist as a mindless vegetable body against her will, her husband's long and difficult battle to honor her wishes has come to a successful end.

The rule of law has been upheld.

I give a salute to Mr Schiavo for his uprightness and his integrity in weathering a storm of hatred and slander and resisting the temptations of bribes and simple convenience.

Mr. Schiavo is the sort of spouse everyone wishes for an those who have are truly blessed with.

Firstly, you are using out-of-date information (most of your quoted case studies are from around 1990 - unsurprisingly there have been a few changes since then).

Actually, it's not changed at all. Especially in the US. It's getting worse here.

Secondly, it's true that there are a lot of careless accidents in hospitals, but then again, what do you expect from over-worked, under-paid, under-slept people with a shitty budget?
Last I heard, vascular surgeons weren't "underpaid".

Thirdly, you said it yourself. INTENTIONAL. Aren't all issues of ethics, morales, and feelings to do with intentions? These people try their best to SAVE people. Part of the reason why there's been such an uproar about this case is due to the misconception of INTENTIONS. I just hope to God that one day, you'll need a doctor there for you, and they'll get you through whatever it is you need to get through and then maybe you'll see a bit of sense.

Regardless of intention, one might ask, "is it possible that the doctors are making a technical mistake?"

And the answer, logically, is "yes". If you choose to say, "no" and then proceed with unplugging someone, you are no longer "unintentionally" making a mistake. You are "intentionally" killing someone - especially if the autopsy later proves you were wrong.

I dedicated my life to saving others, you included. Do you respect me?


You've got my respect. But you arent conversing with normal, respectful or compassionate people in here. More like a bunch of snotty, disrespectful punks, anonymous, ignorant and mean spirited.

Are you sure you trust your doctor?

Yes, I do. It's his job. I'd be interested to know what the hell you'd do if you got ill. Refuse treatment perhaps?

Why should I respect the people who kill more people in the US than intentional firearm murders?
...
etc. etc.


What?!??

I take it, then, that you won't be going to the hospital if you find out tomorrow that there's something seriously wrong with you.

Sure, doctors make mistakes, but they also save the lives of loads and loads of people. Comparing hospital deaths with firearm deaths is absurd. I suspect that the figures for gun deaths would be a lot higher if it wasn't for all the doctors.

And the answer, logically, is "yes". If you choose to say, "no" and then proceed with unplugging someone, you are no longer "unintentionally" making a mistake. You are "intentionally" killing someone - especially if the autopsy later proves you were wrong.

Whose decision was it, again?

Unless, of course, the husband was right and she did indeed want to be taken off of life support. In which case it's suicide and she's burning in Hell. The Ironic Punishment Department is probably working on some sort of feeding tube of their own. A feeding tube that continually fills her to the point of bursting.

And people who believe in the right to die are called cold and insensitive? This is as bad as something Phelps would put out there about Matthew Shepherd.

Are you going to answer this Ankhmet?


didn't he already?

the pope is not missing his thinking brain. well, he might be. i'm not sure

terry was.

Yes, I do. It's his job. I'd be interested to know what the hell you'd do if you got ill. Refuse treatment perhaps?
WL seems to believe that doctors are killing so many people that their judgment is not to be trusted. he's welcome to that opinion, but my life has been saved by medical professionals twice already, my brother's life three times, and my father's life is saved on a daily basis by the medication profile his rheumetologist (sp?) is helping to develop. sure, mistakes happen in hospitals, and doctors are human beings who are imperfect, but i believe they save far more people than they harm. i also believe that a person who has dedicated their life to the study of human health and human medicine is more qualified to advise me on medical treatment then a person who has not...the decision is, ultimately, mine, but that doesn't mean i will write off professional opinions just because doctors sometimes make errors.

Terri Shiavo's crime was that she was unable to speak, or move enough to engage in communication. And for that, she recieved a cruel and unusual death sentence. If she was able to speak and said "I dont want to live like this, please kill me!!!"- would she have been euthanized? Of course not.
I'm not a proponent of keeping a "vegetable" alive indefinately. But Ms.Shiavo wasnt a "vegetable". I believe that she was self aware and likely able to hear and think. I can only go by footage I have seen on TV and the testimony of doctors and nurses-THAT CARED FOR HER IN PERSON ON A DAILY BASIS. With that same evidence, one cannot even argue she wasnt aware and somewhat responsive.

SO- now, will everyone that cannot feed themselves and cannot speak-geriatric patients and infants-be disconnected from feeding/hydration?
With this precedent, will we start to execute death row convicts through this method?
I'm not ranting or emotional. I'm just disgusted.


But you are ranting and emotional. Did you bother looking at her brain scans? they were published. She had no fore brain. It was gone. Atrophied away because all the tissue had died from being cut off from oxygen. If your heart stops, you have only 6 minutes maximum to restart it. Otherwise the brain starts dieing very quickly. The only brain tissue she still had working was what is called the "primative" brain. This is the area that controls breathing and pulse. Her cognitive, reasoning, thinking brain was dead. Period. And yes I am a medical professional and see brain scans like this virtually every day at work in a major trauma center. I am very happy that her unused shell of a body has died since now her spirit can move onwards in its quest.


Peace Be.
all that groks is god

the Grokdoc

Well said. And thoroughly LOGICAL. Anyways, I'm off now, enjoy arguing this one out.

Yes. But the people you mention can all survive without a feeding tube.
I was responding to another poster's idiocy about "a properly functioning human being." The point I was trying to make is that when we begin to allow judgments about what does and does not constitute "a properly functioning human being," we start down the most slippery slope of all ... deciding who gets to live and who has to die. Who gets to make that decision? What will be their basis for making it?

Many on here are concerned about the poor, the homeless, the dispossessed, and rightly so. Will deciding who is "a properly functioning human being" eventually lead us to conclude that because the poor have such terrible lives they don't fit the criteria? Yes, that's an extreme example, but that's what lies at the end of this particular road. What about those terribly maimed while attempting to preserve the lives of others? Is a quadraplegic "a properly functioning human being?" What about gays? If they marry ( something I think should be their decisiion and their decision alone ) they can't have children without "extrodinary means." Does that mean they're not "properly functioning human beings?"

What about non-viable foetuses? Are they "properly functioning human beings?" If so, we commit mass murder. What about those who are viable but become aborted after "partial birth?" Same thing applies ... if they constitute a "properly functioning human being," we are condoning murder.

What about those with Alzheimers? At what point do they cease to be "a properly functioning human being?" Is it ok to kill them when they reach that point?

What are we going to do when someone clones a human being, something that may in fact, have already happened? Is a clone "a properly functioning human being?" If not, should cloning not be a capital offense?

This is not all about "media hype," or the ravings of "far right-wing fundamentalists." It's about deciding what is and is not a human being.

And people who believe in the right to die are called cold and insensitive?

I believe in the right to die. You're assumption that I don't is totally incorrect.

I don't think that the entire Schiavo case should even have been an issue, because she should have been removed from life support when the husband first requested it.

WL seems to believe that doctors are killing so many people that their judgment is not to be trusted. he's welcome to that opinion, but my life has been saved by medical professionals twice already, my brother's life three times, and both my father's life is saved on a daily basis by the medication profile his rheumetologist (sp?) is helping to develop. sure, mistakes happen in hospitals, and doctors are human beings who are imperfect, but i believe they save far more people than they harm. i also believe that a person who has dedicated their life to the study of human health and human medicine is more qualified to advise me on medical treatment then a person who has not...the decision is, ultimately, mine, but that doesn't mean i will write off professional opinions just because doctors sometimes make errors.


Just as an aside: The original poster in this line of discussion said something to the extent of tens of thousands of people die due to doctors' mistakes, or maybe it was hundreds of thousands. However, tens of millions of people are hospitalized each years and probably over a hundred million see a doctor yearly--and the majority are fine.

Mistakes happen, yes, and they are horrible. I've been with a surgeon when he lost a patient do to a split second decision that is hindsite (you know its 20/20) was wrong--and he balled like a baby. However, that doesn't mean that doctors aren't doing their damndest to not make mistakes and to simply take care of people.

Also, the mistakes cited in those reports are most than likely the split second decision mistakes--Terri's case is different. The doctors had time to analyze and reanalyze the information and to consult with one another.

Yes, I do. It's his job. I'd be interested to know what the hell you'd do if you got ill. Refuse treatment perhaps?

I've questioned my own doctor's judgment before - and found out they were wrong on occasion.

A second opinion never hurts. Seeing the data yourself, and educating yourself on what it means never hurts.

When it comes to unplugging a relative (whose wish might have been, "if I'm truly brain dead, unplug me"), then it's my responsibility to know that multiple, board-certified doctors who do not work together and do not work in the same hospital or hospice, and who do not know each other personally and who are NOT appointed by the court AGREE completely on every aspect of the diagnosis. And that I understand the diagnosis.

If I didn't at least take it that far, I would be irresponsible. Just saying, "well, the doctor on shift who specializes in podiatry says she's as good as dead, so go ahead and unplug her" is stupid.

I bet if we pulled the Pope's feeding tube, he'd die.

Just as an aside: The original poster in this line of discussion said something to the extent of tens of thousands of people die due to doctors' mistakes, or maybe it was hundreds of thousands. However, tens of millions of people are hospitalized each years and probably over a hundred million see a doctor yearly--and the majority are fine.

Mistakes happen, yes, and they are horrible. I've been with a surgeon when he lost a patient do to a split second decision that is hindsite (you know its 20/20) was wrong--and he balled like a baby. However, that doesn't mean that doctors aren't doing their damndest to not make mistakes and to simply take care of people.

Also, the mistakes cited in those reports are most than likely the split second decision mistakes--Terri's case is different. The doctors had time to analyze and reanalyze the information and to consult with one another.

indeed.

Let's go back over the numbers:

In the UK, in a single year, doctors kill 40,000 patients accidentally. Whoops!

In the US, in a single year (1997) 18,209 people were murdered with firearms.


compare the first number with the number of people who are treated every year.

compare the second number with the number of people who own firearms.

let's talk percents. it's horribly unfair to say "the united states has more murders than new zeland" simply because the population is so much higher here.

similarly, the number of people who go to hospitals in the UK is higher than the number of people who own firearms here i'm pretty sure. i think

I bet if we pulled the Pope's feeding tube, he'd die.

Considering he needs it!

*this in no way makes me anti-catholic. I respect all religions.*

When it comes to unplugging a relative (whose wish might have been, "if I'm truly brain dead, unplug me"), then it's my responsibility to know that multiple, board-certified doctors who do not work together and do not work in the same hospital or hospice, and who do not know each other personally and who are NOT appointed by the court AGREE completely on every aspect of the diagnosis. And that I understand the diagnosis.

Because you know those court appointed doctors aren't impartial or anything. . .they're just out to kill as many people as possible. :rolleyes:

compare the first number with the number of people who are treated every year.

compare the second number with the number of people who own firearms.

let's talk percents. it's horribly unfair to say "the united states has more murders than new zeland" simply because the population is so much higher here.

similarly, the number of people who go to hospitals in the UK is higher than the number of people who own firearms here i'm pretty sure. i think


Ok - in the US alone - same population.

180,000 medical accident deaths
18,209 firearm murders

Looks like about 10 times as many medical accident deaths to me for the same population.

What I'm saying is that doctors make mistakes. In a previous post, I noted that multiple doctors made repeated mistakes about a teenage boy - they said he was either PVS or had the mental capacity of a newborn baby. They said he would never do anything but lay there.

He couldn't feed himself. So you would have unplugged him.

But thanks to new technology, he's in high school, and is an honors student.

Still can't walk, move, or swallow. The doctors were wrong for 15 years. Multiple doctors.

I also asked that this thread not be turned into another oft-repeated debate. That debate could have been continued in another thread. I'm truly saddened that there is not enough respect and consideration for others for even that simple request to have been honored.


i'm also dissapointed by people's hatred over this matter.


i'm doing my best to dispell that hatred by informing of the facts of the case.

portraying her husband as a demon can do no good to terry.

i'm not religious, and do not pray, but knowledge is as close as i get, and spreading the knowledge is something i would be glad to do for her.

But you are ranting and emotional. Did you bother looking at her brain scans? they were published. She had no fore brain. It was gone. Atrophied away because all the tissue had died from being cut off from oxygen. If your heart stops, you have only 6 minutes maximum to restart it. Otherwise the brain starts dieing very quickly. The only brain tissue she still had working was what is called the "primative" brain. This is the area that controls breathing and pulse. Her cognitive, reasoning, thinking brain was dead. Period. And yes I am a medical professional and see brain scans like this virtually every day at work in a major trauma center. I am very happy that her unused shell of a body has died since now her spirit can move onwards in its quest.


Peace Be.
all that groks is god

the Grokdoc

I certainly wasnt ranting or emotional. I stated my opinion pretty clearly. I didnt see the brain scans and have my doubts that you know what you were looking at. I based my opinion on testimony of the medical professionals that are there, in person, witnessing first hand.
I'm glad that you arent practicing your medicine on anyone I know. Starving to death in a professional medical facility is not nercy, no matter what your opinion is.

I hope she will have peace at last.

Ok - in the US alone - same population.

180,000 medical accident deaths
18,209 firearm murders

Looks like about 10 times as many medical accident deaths to me for the same population.

What I'm saying is that doctors make mistakes. In a previous post, I noted that multiple doctors made repeated mistakes about a teenage boy - they said he was either PVS or had the mental capacity of a newborn baby. They said he would never do anything but lay there.

He couldn't feed himself. So you would have unplugged him.

But thanks to new technology, he's in high school, and is an honors student.

Still can't walk, move, or swallow. The doctors were wrong for 15 years. Multiple doctors.

the doctors also would have never done that without, at the very least, a CAT scan or MRI, and neither would i.

also, to say that the entire population of the US is hospitalized each year is not what i asked.

compare the number of people who die from hospital visits, and compare it to those that manage to come out unscathed. :rolleyes:

I certainly wasnt ranting or emotional. I stated my opinion pretty clearly. I didnt see the brain scans and have my doubts that you know what you were looking at. I based my opinion on testimony of the medical professionals that are there, in person, witnessing first hand.
I'm glad that you arent practicing your medicine on anyone I know. Starving to death in a professional medical facility is not nercy, no matter what your opinion is.


I'm thankful YOU aren't practicing medicine and I hope that you never get in a position where you have any say over it. I've seen one CT as well--and Grok is right. And you know every doctor who said she could get better only provided anecdotal evidence right? The other doctors provided scientific facts, research, and basis.

Starving to death, you are right, is not the most merciful end. But as I've said before, we couldn't do anythin to hasten her death and let her go in peace becuase of religious nutjobs. Mercy sometimes isn't the preservation of life, but the letting go of life. Of course, in medicine there is one thing that preempts even mercy--and that's patient autonomy. Above all things the wishes of the patient are to be respected. If she did not want to be kept alive artifically (and yes, this was artificial) then she shouldn't have been kept alive artificially. It's as easy as that.

:headbang:

I feel like telling everyone to just shut up.

I do have some respect for the dead, so I won't try to correct some of the mistatements repeated here (which have already been disproved in a half dozen other threads).

I will note the hypocrisy of those who are saying prayers and demanding respect for Mrs. Schiavo, but were gloating and dancing on the grave of Johnnie Cochran.

If WL wants to start a separate thread on "why doctors suk," I'm sure we can explain statistics, medical boards, and malpractice suits to him.

But I am saddened by this entire affair. Emotion is not the sole province of the religious nor the hysterical pro-life. Mrs. Schiavo's entire situation was tragic. We should all hope she is now better off.

'Nuff said.

the doctors also would have never done that without, at the very least, a CAT scan or MRI, and neither would i.

also, to say that the entire population of the US is hospitalized each year is not what i asked.

compare the number of people who die from hospital visits, and compare it to those that manage to come out unscathed. :rolleyes:

I'm saying that doctors make a lot of mistakes. 180,000 deadly mistakes.

Are you saying that they don't make mistakes? That a doctor is never wrong?

I remember being in the hospital emergency room with my father hooked to an EKG. The two residents and the senior doctor on the floor couldn't agree as to what was wrong with him. My father was a chronic alcoholic. It sure looked like atrial fibrillation to me - probably alcohol-induced cardiomyopathy.

They discussed it for over an hour, off and on, but not once did they agree on the EKG readings -- no one ever thought it was atrial fibrillation until, exasperated by their ignorance, I brought it up.

Then there was a chorus of "oh yeah". I left to go find another doctor.

If I had not been there, he probably would have died that night. And I'm not even a doctor.

I'm thankful YOU aren't practicing medicine and I hope that you never get in a position where you have any say over it. I've seen one CT as well--and Grok is right. And you know every doctor who said she could get better only provided anecdotal evidence right? The other doctors provided scientific facts, research, and basis.

Starving to death, you are right, is not the most merciful end. But as I've said before, we couldn't do anythin to hasten her death and let her go in peace becuase of religious nutjobs. Mercy sometimes isn't the preservation of life, but the letting go of life. Of course, in medicine there is one thing that preempts even mercy--and that's patient autonomy. Above all things the wishes of the patient are to be respected. If she did not want to be kept alive artifically (and yes, this was artificial) then she shouldn't have been kept alive artificially. It's as easy as that.
once again, you hit the nail on the head. knock it off, it's starting to get spooky...

as somebody who has studied the human brain for about a decade now, i took a look at the brain images that were made available, and i read some of the direct reports being put out by the doctors who examined her. it's pretty clear that the woman's brain was jello, had been jello for quite some time, and was not becoming less jello-like as time went on. based on everything we know about the human body and human cells, it would be a physical impossibility for a human brain to recover from the injuries her brain sustained.

given that there were numerous hearings, piles of official reports and evaluations, at least a dozen specialists, and piles of additional medical information compiled, and given that every single legal proceeding upheld the husband's right to make this decision, i really don't get why people are still hashing this out. of all the PVS cases, this one is just about as non-controversial as they come.

why does this one woman deserve such special attention, when her case is about as clear cut as any such case could possibly be? why is nobody concerned about cases where there is actual legitmate dispute over the status of the patient? why is nobody talking about the 6-month old baby who was taken off life support AGAINST his parents' wishes simply because they could not pay for his care?

:headbang:

I feel like telling everyone to just shut up.

I do have some respect for the dead, so I won't try to correct some of the mistatements repeated here (which have already been disproved in a half dozen other threads).

I will note the hypocrisy of those who are saying prayers and demanding respect for Mrs. Schiavo, but were gloating and dancing on the grave of Johnnie Cochran.

If WL wants to start a separate thread on "why doctors suk," I'm sure we can explain statistics, medical boards, and malpractice suits to him.

But I am saddened by this entire affair. Emotion is not the sole province of the religious nor the hysterical pro-life. Mrs. Schiavo's entire situation was tragic. We should all hope she is now better off.

'Nuff said.


i'm quoting this because it bears repeating

the woman has been in living hell for 15 years.

if you think torture is a better fate than death, and would wish to impose it on another person such as terry, raise your hand.

that's what i thought.

now let the woman rest in peace.

Please stop it!! This is not another debate thread for you all to drag out your same old arguments and cruel remarks as to her condition. There are plenty of those threads around so you don't have to pollute this one. She was a living, breathing human being who deserves no less respect than anyone else. As a Catholic, I am asking others with similar beliefs to join in offering prayers for her. So PLEASE take your arguments elsewhere.
Pray for all the children starving in Africa and the Iraqi civilians being slaughtered. Because they certainly suffered a hell of a lot more than Schiavo did. Hypocrite. You'll "pray" for some dead woman just because she was Christian, but when it comes to the non-Christians, who are suffering, and are alive, no. FUCK them. They aren't worth your time, are they?

I'm saying that doctors make a lot of mistakes. 180,000 deadly mistakes.

Are you saying that they don't make mistakes? That a doctor is never wrong?

I remember being in the hospital emergency room with my father hooked to an EKG. The two residents and the senior doctor on the floor couldn't agree as to what was wrong with him. My father was a chronic alcoholic. It sure looked like atrial fibrillation to me - probably alcohol-induced cardiomyopathy.

They discussed it for over an hour, off and on, but not once did they agree on the EKG readings -- no one ever thought it was atrial fibrillation until, exasperated by their ignorance, I brought it up.

Then there was a chorus of "oh yeah". I left to go find another doctor.

If I had not been there, he probably would have died that night. And I'm not even a doctor.
your life seems to be plagued by the incompetance of others. you've reported how pretty much all your teachers have been incompetant, and now your doctors are all so helpless and stupid that they cannot evaluate a relatively simply and straightforward condition. given that the ineptitude you describe is more than lawsuit-worthy, and given that you report such frequent failures by such a wide range of people, i wonder that none of the rest of us seem to encounter these dangerously idiotic professionals in our daily lives...

Pray for all the children starving in Africa and the Iraqi civilians being slaughtered. Because they certainly suffered a hell of a lot more than Schiavo did. Hypocrite. You'll "pray" for some dead woman just because she was Christian, but when it comes to the non-Christians, who are suffering, and are alive, no. FUCK them. They aren't worth your time, are they?

Don't call Zooke A hypocrit!

I think we should pray for Terri Schiavo. However, I think we should be praying for more than her soul, but everyone's souls who are suffering. Here are a list of examples:

The poor, homeless, and abandoned in our home countries and abroad. Their minds are DEFINITELY there, and we don't have Congress intervening for them. They can even do it legally, at least in the US.

People who are suffering as a result of war. The US is inflicting some of it, and we are ignoring them too. We care about a virtually brain-dead woman on a tube, and don't care about our soldiers being car bombed, the innocent peoples in the countries we are in conflict with who die as a result.

The continued suffering of people in Sumatra and the surrounding islands in Indonesia, who are being hit with earthquakes once a day...fortunately, most of them are small, well, except that big one a few days ago...


This obsession with who deserves to be protected and who "deserves" to be prayed for needs to stop. It is clouding our judgement and distracting us from the real work we have to do as Christians (those of us who are) or as priveleged human beings in general. It's easy to glom onto the Schiavo bandwagon because we are being spoonfed compassion and led like media-driven sheep. However, it is the things that go on beyond our eyes that are the most pressing.

This was justa pathetic political gambit that involved a woman's tragic story. Let's get to the real business at hand, shall we?

Ge-Ren
THANK YOU.

And God bless.

In nomen di parti filli spiritus sancti

Amen

didn't he already?

the pope is not missing his thinking brain. well, he might be. i'm not sure

terry was.

Uh, sorry, I left and went on the underdogs, so I must have missed something :S

your life seems to be plagued by the incompetance of others. you've reported how pretty much all your teachers have been incompetant, and now your doctors are all so helpless and stupid that they cannot evaluate a relatively simply and straightforward condition. given that the ineptitude you describe is more than lawsuit-worthy, and given that you report such frequent failures by such a wide range of people, i wonder that none of the rest of us seem to encounter these dangerously idiotic professionals in our daily lives...


Not "all" doctors are stupid. But they certainly should be questioned, and their opinions backed up, especially where life and death are concerned.

Evidently, 180,000 dead people a year have been "plagued" by incompetent doctors.

a vegetable? she could move! couldnt you see on the news, she could make her eyes follow things!


No she could not. Those videos you saw on the news were about 4 minutes edited together out of 4.5 HOURS of video shot. The only movements she made were reflexive. Her brain was DEAD.

Peace Be
all that groks is god

the Grokdoc

:headbang:

I feel like telling everyone to just shut up.

I do have some respect for the dead, so I won't try to correct some of the mistatements repeated here (which have already been disproved in a half dozen other threads).

I will note the hypocrisy of those who are saying prayers and demanding respect for Mrs. Schiavo, but were gloating and dancing on the grave of Johnnie Cochran.

If WL wants to start a separate thread on "why doctors suk," I'm sure we can explain statistics, medical boards, and malpractice suits to him.

But I am saddened by this entire affair. Emotion is not the sole province of the religious nor the hysterical pro-life. Mrs. Schiavo's entire situation was tragic. We should all hope she is now better off.

'Nuff said.

uh-oh, I agree with you. I haven't followed the Cochran thread(s), but in view of the legal equality he has brought to many, I wonder why anyone would be glad to see him gone. Oh well...that's another topic.

I am a person of faith...my belief in God grounds me in my principals and lends me the strength to make it through life's struggles. I believe through my faith I am able to put aside "me" and extend compassion and love to "you".

Uh, sorry, I left and went on the underdogs, so I must have missed something :S

The pope has a feeding tube! He needs it too. Is confined to a wheelchair for the most part.

What shall we do about that?

Not "all" doctors are stupid. But they certainly should be questioned, and their opinions backed up, especially where life and death are concerned.

Evidently, 180,000 dead people a year have been "plagued" by incompetent doctors.


You do realize that there is a difference between making a mistake and being incompetant right? I'd like to see you in a surgery or an ER making split second decisions where you are always right.

I'm saying that doctors make a lot of mistakes. 180,000 deadly mistakes.

Are you saying that they don't make mistakes? That a doctor is never wrong?

I remember being in the hospital emergency room with my father hooked to an EKG. The two residents and the senior doctor on the floor couldn't agree as to what was wrong with him. My father was a chronic alcoholic. It sure looked like atrial fibrillation to me - probably alcohol-induced cardiomyopathy.

They discussed it for over an hour, off and on, but not once did they agree on the EKG readings -- no one ever thought it was atrial fibrillation until, exasperated by their ignorance, I brought it up.

Then there was a chorus of "oh yeah". I left to go find another doctor.

If I had not been there, he probably would have died that night. And I'm not even a doctor.

of course they make mistakes.

but so does everybody, and the work that they do is still worthwhile.

percentagewise, 180,000 is nothing.

compare that to countries that don't even have doctors.

i'm sorry to hear about the sorry state of those two doctors, but put things in perspective.

you knew it was atrial fibriliation because you are farmiliar with your father's case. the doctors see dozens of people a day, and there are millions of cases that they have to know about.

it's easy to recognise something if that's what's on your mind, but to people who have been looking at hundreds of other cases, atrial fibriliation is not at the front of their minds.

Not "all" doctors are stupid. But they certainly should be questioned, and their opinions backed up, especially where life and death are concerned.

Evidently, 180,000 dead people a year have been "plagued" by incompetent doctors.
the problem with that number is that it also fails to take into account how many of those people would have died anyway if they had not received any medical treatment. it also fails to take into account the fact that many deaths due to medical mistakes have nothing to do with whether or not the doctor in question was competant; very competant, skilled doctors may err, and while it is truly tragic it is not necessarily an indication that the doctor is a moron.

you've clearly got a lot of rage stored up, and the annecdote you described hints at why that might be, so i'm not going to try to thrash this out with you. i'm just going to go hug my little brother, who is playing videogames at this very moment because his neurologist was willing to miss his own son's second birthday in order to provide the best possible treatment to a child he'd never met before.

Ok - in the US alone - same population.

180,000 medical accident deaths
18,209 firearm murders

Looks like about 10 times as many medical accident deaths to me for the same population.

What I'm saying is that doctors make mistakes. In a previous post, I noted that multiple doctors made repeated mistakes about a teenage boy - they said he was either PVS or had the mental capacity of a newborn baby. They said he would never do anything but lay there.

He couldn't feed himself. So you would have unplugged him.

But thanks to new technology, he's in high school, and is an honors student.

Still can't walk, move, or swallow. The doctors were wrong for 15 years. Multiple doctors.


That kind of thing is still pretty hazy as far as medical science goes anyway.

the problem with that number is that it also fails to take into account how many of those people would have died anyway if they had not received any medical treatment. it also fails to take into account the fact that many deaths due to medical mistakes have nothing to do with whether or not the doctor in question was competant; very competant, skilled doctors may err, and while it is truly tragic it is not necessarily an indication that the doctor is a moron.

you've clearly got a lot of rage stored up, and the annecdote you described hints at why that might be, so i'm not going to try to thrash this out with you. i'm just going to go hug my little brother, who is playing videogames at this very moment because his neurologist was willing to miss his own son's second birthday in order to provide the best possible treatment to a child he'd never met before.

And the prize for pwning Whispering Legs goes to: Bottle.

The pope has a feeding tube! He needs it too. Is confined to a wheelchair for the most part.

What shall we do about that?


what do you mean 'what should we do about it?'?

he still has a brain, doesn't he?

he can still control his actions, he can still communicate.

they are two completely different cases

And the prize for pwning Whispering Legs goes to: Bottle.

i second that

I feel terrible for her family. The whole situation made me feel ill.

Agreed... may she rest in peace.

And the prize for pwning Whispering Legs goes to: Bottle.

Thirded

(with special mention to Pracus) :p

you knew it was atrial fibriliation because you are farmiliar with your father's case. the doctors see dozens of people a day, and there are millions of cases that they have to know about.

No, no one, including me, knew it was cardiomyopathy prior to that visit.

I only knew what it was because one of my hobbies is reading EKG traces. There's a mailing list I joined that was supposed to be only for board certified cardiologists, and they mail little situations around and talk about them.

After a while, given a short history and a trace, I could take a stab at the more obvious.

I think that the problem in that case was that the doctors were not cardiologists. I'm not sure what's up with training nowadays, but I don't think that a young GP is going to have the time to be good at everything that could possibly come up.

Regardless of how you slice it, or explain it, 180,000 deaths that are classified in the study as "avoidable" are too many. At the very least, it indicates that the customer should have some knowledge - enough knowledge to be able to ask questions. Like why isn't there a board certified cardiologist on call right now?

The average person would have sat there and died. Which, I imagine, happens on a regular basis. It's called trust. Well, my trust is limited to people I know have some demonstrated competence.

And the prize for pwning Whispering Legs goes to: Bottle.
Yup. A woman is dead.




WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHO "PWNES" WHO? :mad: :headbang:

Yup. A woman is dead.

WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHO "PWNES" WHO? :mad: :headbang:

I come here to discuss things. Others come here to pwn people. As though someone was keeping score. Obviously, it's not important to the pwners who lives or who dies - it's all a joke and another mark on the big scoreboard.

Brother Paul just announced that Terri Schiavo has passed away. She was Catholic, and I would like other Catholics, and non-Catholics, on this forum to join me in praying the Rosary for her.

In the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit...

http://www.familyrosary.org/main/rosary-how.php

The Rosary is useless. Thank God she is finally dead. I can't imagine what it must have been like, being trapped in that body unable to be part of any world for 15 years.

Yup. A woman is dead.




WHO THE FUCK CARES ABOUT WHO "PWNES" WHO? :mad: :headbang:


Be honest, this isnt a normal case of a woman dying, terry schiavo died a decade ago, this is just a sick game played by her parents with her body.

The game is over for them an they've lost, and thats a good thing.

The tragedy was when her brain died.

I'm saying that doctors make a lot of mistakes. 180,000 deadly mistakes.

Are you saying that they don't make mistakes? That a doctor is never wrong?

I remember being in the hospital emergency room with my father hooked to an EKG. The two residents and the senior doctor on the floor couldn't agree as to what was wrong with him. My father was a chronic alcoholic. It sure looked like atrial fibrillation to me - probably alcohol-induced cardiomyopathy.

They discussed it for over an hour, off and on, but not once did they agree on the EKG readings -- no one ever thought it was atrial fibrillation until, exasperated by their ignorance, I brought it up.

Then there was a chorus of "oh yeah". I left to go find another doctor.

If I had not been there, he probably would have died that night. And I'm not even a doctor.

This isn't just one doctor, or one hospital. This is the vast majority of the nation's trained neurologists.

Pray for all the children starving in Africa and the Iraqi civilians being slaughtered. Because they certainly suffered a hell of a lot more than Schiavo did. Hypocrite. You'll "pray" for some dead woman just because she was Christian, but when it comes to the non-Christians, who are suffering, and are alive, no. FUCK them. They aren't worth your time, are they?
You are a sad, sad little man.

I feel badly, and I think that the family should have been given the choice of whether or not to let her die, because the doctor who examined her said that she was not in a coma, tryed to talk, and would respond very well to things, she was like a few of the speds at my school, except she couldn't really move. But I also feel that she is probably better off without having to suffer like that. This whoel incident did bring out the hypocrisy in liberals though, they always protest things that they don't agree with, but when the conservatives protested the murder of Terri, they get pissed off, and they also are usually against killing criminals and animals, but let this poor woman starve to death, even though she was perfectly fine, well not perfectly, but she could still sustain life.
Uh... every doctor who actually examined her said she was gone. Her CAT scan said she was gone.

When the autopsy confirms that her brain was wasted away except the stem, will you shut up then?

Furthermore, if anything, it shows the hypocracy of Bush, who signed a bill in Texas allowing terminally ill patients to be taken off life support by hospitals if the family can't pay up and is massively cutting any health care. He doesn't give a shit about life unless it's to prove a point.

You are a sad, sad little man.



His point is completely valid etrusca.

Dont flame him. Dont piss on yourself with an ad hominem.

Also, she's at peace now. Let her remain there and how about we all shut the hell up about it. OK?

Death can be a beautiful thing. Especially when you're the Schindlers and Schiavos. It means that the hypocrits and well-wishers will trickle away, leaving you to your peace, and let a poor woman finally lie in peace.

I come here to discuss things. Others come here to pwn people. As though someone was keeping score. Obviously, it's not important to the pwners who lives or who dies - it's all a joke and another mark on the big scoreboard.


look: you're the one bashing the entire medical community because of some mistakes that make up almost nothing of the total population of people admitted to hospitals.

bottle showed you that they are entirely undeserving of your contempt.

as for schiavo: that's really a sad thing.

but look at the big picture: at this very moment, we are at war.

our men are dying.

Iraqi civilians are dying. men, women, children.

indonesia has been balasted with one earthquake after another. more deaths.

millions of people who, unlike terry, have a chance to recover, are dying because they cannot afford medical care. the medical care that our government refuses to pay for.

put things in perspective

I know a girl who was born with spina bifida. She writes poetry. Is she a "properly functioning human being?" I have 2 lbs of metal holding my right leg together. Am I a "properly functioning human being?" One of my friends has a son who was born with Down's Syndrome. Is he a "properly functioning human being?"
Hey, I have two pounds of metal holding my right leg together too! Small friggin world, huh? Wrecked my motorcycle. It hurt.

a vegetable? she could move! couldnt you see on the news, she could make her eyes follow things!

One ten second strip of video tape out of FOUR HOURS of footage is so far from anything resembleing "evidence" that it would be discarded out of hand by just about any sensable person. For instance, if you saw a ten second clip of a guy having a conversation with an alien, or one of the mole people from the center of the earth, would you believe it or simply discard it as a hoax? I think I know your answer to that one.

Ten seconds out of FOUR HOURS. Evidence? I think not...

look: you're the one bashing the entire medical community because of some mistakes that make up almost nothing of the total population of people admitted to hospitals.

bottle showed you that they are entirely undeserving of your contempt.

as for schiavo: that's really a sad thing.

but look at the big picture: at this very moment, we are at war.

our men are dying.

Iraqi civilians are dying. men, women, children.

indonesia has been balasted with one earthquake after another. more deaths.

millions of people who, unlike terry, have a chance to recover, are dying because they cannot afford medical care. the medical care that our government refuses to pay for.

put things in perspective


Oh, I see. If you can't prove that doctors never make mistakes, you say I'm showing "contempt" for them. I'm not showing contempt - I'm saying that they make mistakes.

And when you can't agree that they make mistakes, then you change the subject.

I feel terrible for her family. The whole situation made me feel ill.
I agree, but it's good that the issue can now be laid to rest.

Hey, I have two pounds of metal holding my right leg together too! Small friggin world, huh? Wrecked my motorcycle. It hurt.
Heh! Mine was from shattering my right femur in a near-fatal military parachuting accident. Back in 1979, I broke my collarbone and two ribs on a motorcycle. sigh.

No, no one, including me, knew it was cardiomyopathy prior to that visit.

I only knew what it was because one of my hobbies is reading EKG traces. There's a mailing list I joined that was supposed to be only for board certified cardiologists, and they mail little situations around and talk about them.

After a while, given a short history and a trace, I could take a stab at the more obvious.

I think that the problem in that case was that the doctors were not cardiologists. I'm not sure what's up with training nowadays, but I don't think that a young GP is going to have the time to be good at everything that could possibly come up.

Regardless of how you slice it, or explain it, 180,000 deaths that are classified in the study as "avoidable" are too many. At the very least, it indicates that the customer should have some knowledge - enough knowledge to be able to ask questions. Like why isn't there a board certified cardiologist on call right now?

The average person would have sat there and died. Which, I imagine, happens on a regular basis. It's called trust. Well, my trust is limited to people I know have some demonstrated competence.


Your hobby is reading ekgs? oookkk :rolleyes:

You know most "avoidable" deaths in hosipitals are from infection? Not screwups..

Your hobby is reading ekgs? oookkk :rolleyes:

You know most "avoidable" deaths in hosipitals are from infection? Not screwups..

Let us not venture into the realm of noscomial infection...

so anyway: looking at the root cause: bulimia.

is there going to be any attempt to stop the cause? of course not.

*sigh*

and her death really could have meant something. :(
That is an excellent point.

Something can be gained from all the publicity of her unfortunate condition. I personally had never thought that bullemiia could do that to a person... Perhaps this should be used as an opportunity to educate the public, especially teenage girls who are more susceptible to eating disorders about the dangers that lie in throwing up everything you eat. And how it is not worth it to become skinny.

Let us not venture into the realm of noscomial infection...
Can you say "necrotizing fasciitis," boys and girls? :D

To poorly paraphrase last night's South Park...

If I am ever in a persistent vegitative state where I am only kept alive through the use of a feeding tube, my greatest wish is...

...that you do not parade me on (inter)national television in my indignity and give me and my family privacy.

May she, her family, my religious and political leaders, my nation and my world finally have some peace.

Let us not venture into the realm of noscomial infection...


well its true, simple infections cause the most damage.

I not saying doctors are perfect, far from it, infact I think most suck. However, saying doctors are the base cause for all the preventable deaths is crazy.

And, honestly who read ekgs for fun? wtf?

That is an excellent point.

Something can be gained from all the publicity of her unfortunate condition. I personally had never thought that bullemiia could do that to a person... Perhaps this should be used as an opportunity to educate the public, especially teenage girls who are more susceptible to eating disorders about the dangers that lie in throwing up everything you eat. And how it is not worth it to become skinny.


wha she was bullemic?

Uh... every doctor who actually examined her said she was gone. Her CAT scan said she was gone.

When the autopsy confirms that her brain was wasted away except the stem, will you shut up then?

Furthermore, if anything, it shows the hypocracy of Bush, who signed a bill in Texas allowing terminally ill patients to be taken off life support by hospitals if the family can't pay up and is massively cutting any health care. He doesn't give a shit about life unless it's to prove a point.


And yet, though you says she was "gone", she was able to breath on her own, her heart beat on its own, and she could blink... she wasn't braindead, technically then.

We have seen worse off patients be kept alive for years, though they were BRAIN DEAD. Their bodies did not function at all and they relied completely on life-support ventilators and such. That is just keeping a corpse from rotting so soon..

But this.. she didn't need all that crap. Hell, if nobody ate for 14 days, we would all be terminally ill. She just required to survive differently than us. And, as usual, we are scared of all those who are different.

Sounds like we are repeating our history all over again, never learning...

Pray for all the children starving in Africa and the Iraqi civilians being slaughtered. Because they certainly suffered a hell of a lot more than Schiavo did. Hypocrite. You'll "pray" for some dead woman just because she was Christian, but when it comes to the non-Christians, who are suffering, and are alive, no. FUCK them. They aren't worth your time, are they?

You call me a hypocrite? FYI...I pray for everyone. I pray for peace and acceptance and mercy and freedom. I also donate to organizations that aide the needy in countries all over the world. I volunteer on a local level to help others. One, at a distribution center for food and clothes for the underpriviledged. I also spend at least 4 hours a week visiting with and reading to children in the burn unit at our children's hospital. My husband and I also check in on our elderly neighbors daily to make sure they're OK and to see if they need any errands run. I work with an exchange student program that hosts children from the former USSR and China. I make myself available to people who know me if they need advice or if they just need someone to listen to them. I work in service to others in dozens of ways every day. It isn't an either/or proposition. It's a mindset and a way of life. I should put away all compassion for Terri Schiavo and her family and focus everything on others that you feel more worthy? I'm a hypocrite for caring about her as well? I'm sorry...I understand a different definition for "hypocrite".

And yet, though you says she was "gone", she was able to breath on her own, her heart beat on its own, and she could blink... she wasn't braindead, technically then.

We have seen worse off patients be kept alive for years, though they were BRAIN DEAD. Their bodies did not function at all and they relied completely on life-support ventilators and such. That is just keeping a corpse from rotting so soon..

But this.. she didn't need all that crap. Hell, if nobody ate for 14 days, we would all be terminally ill. She just required to survive differently than us. And, as usual, we are scared of all those who are different.

Sounds like we are repeating our history all over again, never learning...


We should be more like klingons and die in battle with honour.


But really, all she has to do is make it known she does not want to die. But gee she is NOT FUCKING self aware in anyway! Babies are more self aware, at least can touch der nose

Oh, I see. If you can't prove that doctors never make mistakes, you say I'm showing "contempt" for them. I'm not showing contempt - I'm saying that they make mistakes.

And when you can't agree that they make mistakes, then you change the subject.


i didn't change the subject, i responded to the second half of your post. the part where you say: "Obviously, it's not important to the pwners who lives or who dies - it's all a joke and another mark on the big scoreboard."

also, where the hell do you get "And when you can't agree that they make mistakes" from "of course they make mistakes. but so does everybody, and the work that they do is still worthwhile." (see post 165) :rolleyes:

Zooke made this thread for spiritual purposes, which she clearly stated many times. Her wishes, supposedly like Terri's, have been neglected and people have done as they wanted. As a respone to her original post, I may find it in my heart to pray for her and her family. As for the rest of you, grow up, or something. If you want to see people in dire conditions exploited til the nth degree, I reccomend you watch a news channel or pick up a paper. But I'm sure it's all in good fun, even though it's at the expense of other people's personal hell.

wha she was bullemic?

yes, she was bulemic.

she suffered from a severe lack of potassium (vitamin K) and the shortage of that essential nutrient caused her heart to stop beating.

that lead to a shortage of oxygen to the brain, and the heart took too long to restart, the brain was without oxygen for too long, and quite literally starved to death.

Zooke made this thread for spiritual purposes, which she clearly stated many times. Her wishes, supposedly like Terri's, have been neglected and people have done as they wanted. As a respone to her original post, I may find it in my heart to pray for her and her family. As for the rest of you, grow up, or something. If you want to see people in dire conditions exploited til the nth degree, I reccomend you watch a news channel or pick up a paper. But I'm sure it's all in good fun, even though it's at the expense of other people's personal hell.


NOTE TO SELF: go to christian site, not general politics / life issues debate forum. :rolleyes:

yes, she was bulemic.

she suffered from a severe lack of potassium (vitamin K) and the shortage of that essential nutrient caused her heart to stop beating.

that lead to a shortage of oxygen to the brain, and the heart took too long to restart, the brain was without oxygen for too long, and quite literally starved to death.

I know what bulemia is thanks.

Didnt know she was bulemic though.

well she basically killed herself, so she is going to go to hell anyways...


and ya this topic is starting to seem really stupid to me.

We should be more like klingons and die in battle with honour.


But really, all she has to do is make it known she does not want to die. But gee she is NOT FUCKING self aware in anyway! Babies are more self aware, at least can touch der nose

How the hell do you know she wasn't self-aware? Could you read her mind? Don't related being self-aware to the ability of moving. She may have had her disability and unable to communicate and move, but don't say she wasn't self-aware until you are absolutely capable of knowing.

She could breath and blink and that is moving. Perhaps that was the only way she could have communicated with anyone anymore. We'll never know now that we gave up on her.

By the way, babies aren't usually born with brain-damage, so it really all depended on what parts of her brain was damaged. Still, in today's society, ill people have had half of their brains removed to keep them from dying and they make complete recoveries, able to think and be 'fully-functional humans' though with only HALF a brain! So, who says she couldn't think and be at least be self-aware!?

Hey, Jaythewise, shut up. Unfortunately since you're protected by the glasses you wear sitting at your computer all day, I can't rightly beat your ass. Unless you have anything remotely intelligent or bold to say, shut up, you little bitch.

yes, she was bulemic.

she suffered from a severe lack of potassium (vitamin K) and the shortage of that essential nutrient caused her heart to stop beating.

that lead to a shortage of oxygen to the brain, and the heart took too long to restart, the brain was without oxygen for too long, and quite literally starved to death.


Just on a medical point. . . Potassium (chemical symbol K) is not Vitamin K.

We should be more like klingons and die in battle with honour.
That's honestly how I thought I would die.

Pray for all the children starving in Africa and the Iraqi civilians being slaughtered. Because they certainly suffered a hell of a lot more than Schiavo did. Hypocrite. You'll "pray" for some dead woman just because she was Christian, but when it comes to the non-Christians, who are suffering, and are alive, no. FUCK them. They aren't worth your time, are they?

You don't know me. I voice my outrage with the atrocities in Africa and many other countries, with letters and emails to my government representatives. I am saddened and frustrated every time another group of these psychopaths decide to blow up or shoot innocents. I pray that our troops are able to help put an end to these animal's rampage and let the sane reasonable people reclaim what is theirs. I count as friends many people of many faiths and nationalities...and not one is more important than the next. Even a poor brain damaged woman in Florida that I never met.

Just on a medical point. . . Potassium (chemical symbol K) is not Vitamin K.

*shrug*

i was always under the impression that it was.

then what have my parents been feeding me all these years ??? :eek:

also, where the hell do you get "And when you can't agree that they make mistakes" from "of course they make mistakes. but so does everybody, and the work that they do is still worthwhile." (see post 165) :rolleyes:

You were saying that I should trust doctors. I don't. Not that I wouldn't go to a doctor, because what choice do you have? But doctors are human. Humans make mistakes. Not only on the spur of the moment, but over time.

If it's your life at stake, you have some choices:

1. Let the doctor do whatever he wants. Never question him, and never ask for a second opinion. Above all, don't familiarize yourself with what's wrong with you, other than to ask, "am I going to be OK, Doc?"

2. Question the doctor. I'm not saying to be an annoyance, but we're talking about life and death, or heavy duty mayhem. Ask for a second opinion. Familiarize yourself with what's wrong with you. Read the literature. And when he says, "you'll be fine" you should check.

I'm saying #2 is the rational way to go. And everyone else seems to think that's a stupid thing to do.

How the hell do you know she wasn't self-aware? Could you read her mind? Don't related being self-aware to the ability of moving. She may have had her disability and unable to communicate and move, but don't say she wasn't self-aware until you are absolutely capable of knowing.

She could breath and blink and that is moving. Perhaps that was the only way she could have communicated with anyone anymore. We'll never know now that we gave up on her.

By the way, babies aren't usually born with brain-damage, so it really all depended on what parts of her brain was damaged. Still, in today's society, ill people have had half of their brains removed to keep them from dying and they make complete recoveries, able to think and be 'fully-functional humans' though with only HALF a brain! So, who says she couldn't think and be at least be self-aware!?


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8573496&postcount=67

the scans that showed a giant hole in her cerebral cortex, perhaps?

Zooke made this thread for spiritual purposes, which she clearly stated many times. Her wishes, supposedly like Terri's, have been neglected and people have done as they wanted. As a respone to her original post, I may find it in my heart to pray for her and her family. As for the rest of you, grow up, or something. If you want to see people in dire conditions exploited til the nth degree, I reccomend you watch a news channel or pick up a paper. But I'm sure it's all in good fun, even though it's at the expense of other people's personal hell.
I wholeheartedly agree, but you've got to remember that a significant minority of those who post on here do so because they are sad, demented little people without a real life who come on here to vent their spleen. Sad, but true. :(

I wholeheartedly agree, but you've got to remember that a significant minority of those who post on here do so because they are sad, demented little people without a real life who come on here to vent their spleen. Sad, but true. :(

Exhibit A. :rolleyes:

The pot calleth the kettle ...

NOTE TO SELF: go to christian site, not general politics / life issues debate forum. :rolleyes:

You cold hearted sonofabitch. Dude get a life outside of you parents house, your two inch thick glasses, then unglue yourself from your computer screen and maybe you'll see the real world and then maybe someday you will appreciate that sometimes people have problems.

Zooke made this thread for spiritual purposes, which she clearly stated many times. Her wishes, supposedly like Terri's, have been neglected and people have done as they wanted. As a respone to her original post, I may find it in my heart to pray for her and her family. As for the rest of you, grow up, or something. If you want to see people in dire conditions exploited til the nth degree, I reccomend you watch a news channel or pick up a paper. But I'm sure it's all in good fun, even though it's at the expense of other people's personal hell.

Thank you for trying. Even though threads for topics other than debate on politics/ethics/morals are respected, obviously a thread for people to join together in spirit are not. Sad.

You were saying that I should trust doctors. I don't. Not that I wouldn't go to a doctor, because what choice do you have? But doctors are human. Humans make mistakes. Not only on the spur of the moment, but over time.

If it's your life at stake, you have some choices:

1. Let the doctor do whatever he wants. Never question him, and never ask for a second opinion. Above all, don't familiarize yourself with what's wrong with you, other than to ask, "am I going to be OK, Doc?"

2. Question the doctor. I'm not saying to be an annoyance, but we're talking about life and death, or heavy duty mayhem. Ask for a second opinion. Familiarize yourself with what's wrong with you. Read the literature. And when he says, "you'll be fine" you should check.

I'm saying #2 is the rational way to go. And everyone else seems to think that's a stupid thing to do.

of course i agree with you on that point. have you seen my religious debate threads?

you just seem to be demonizing the doctors with no good cause, by posting the 180,000 number of deaths with no contrast as to how many people are saved by the doctors.

You are a sad, sad little man.

Please tell me you weren't watching Toy Story when you posted it because a character said it in that movie too!

People,

She is dead. The debate is essentially over. Let us pray for her family and move on please?

*shrug*

i was always under the impression that it was.

then what have my parents been feeding me all these years ??? :eek:


I cannot remember the chemical name for Vitamin K at the momeny. However it is a cofactor invovled in gamma-carboxylation of several coagulation factors. Without it, your blood will not clot.

Potassium on the other hand is an element that exists at a cation in solution. It is involved in regulation of electrical impulses such as those that occur in action potentials in nerves or in muscle contraction. It is almost always associated with repression of such transmissions--ie, when K flows, the membrane won't depolarize (it hyperpolarizes) and the muscle does not contract or the nerve impulse is not propagated.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8573496&postcount=67

the scans that showed a giant hole in her cerebral cortex, perhaps?

Even with the cognitive power of a goldfish, she was still nonetheless alive. Hell, even a goldfish knows where it is for 3 seconds, so she may have had some sign of self-awareness at times.

You cold hearted sonofabitch. Dude get a life outside of you parents house, your two inch thick glasses, then unglue yourself from your computer screen and maybe you'll see the real world and then maybe someday you will appreciate that sometimes people have problems.


1) his point was valid. if zooke didn't want people debating, he could have gone somewhere other than a debaing forum. common sense

2) that's flamebait

Please tell me you weren't watching Toy Story when you posted it because a character said it in that movie too!

People,

She is dead. The debate is essentially over. Let us pray for her family and move on please?


Thank you. Thank you.

And we can get back to being (almost) civil. :D :fluffle:

Can't you people stop it? What is wrong with you? You're arguing the same old tired points. You're calling names and slinging personal insults. People deserve respect, living and dead. Why is it so hard for you to do that?

PLEASE STOP IT!!!!!!

wha she was bullemic?
Yes. That's what gave her the potassium deficiency that started all this.

When you throw up so much, not only are you losing electrolytes from the food you injest, but your body dumps electrolytes into the small intestine due to the stress. This would result in diareah and also, depletion of electrolytes hinders brain function... have you ever heard of someone overdosing on water? It's because they've diluted their electrolytes so badly their brain doesn't function (something along those lines at least. I'm not a doctor)

She is dead. The debate is essentially over. Let us pray for her family and move on please?


perhaps it would be a better idea to asses the causes of the event in the hopes that it does not need to happen again, no?

the more you keep people in the dark about why this happened, the more likely it is that it will happen again.

May she go with God. She is now free from her manipulators.

My thoughts go to her and Michael Schiavo, whose promise to her is now forfilled.

You don't know me. I voice my outrage with the atrocities in Africa and many other countries, with letters and emails to my government representatives. I am saddened and frustrated every time another group of these psychopaths decide to blow up or shoot innocents. I pray that our troops are able to help put an end to these animal's rampage and let the sane reasonable people reclaim what is theirs. I count as friends many people of many faiths and nationalities...and not one is more important than the next. Even a poor brain damaged woman in Florida that I never met.

Here here Zooke!

You were saying that I should trust doctors. I don't. Not that I wouldn't go to a doctor, because what choice do you have? But doctors are human. Humans make mistakes. Not only on the spur of the moment, but over time.

If it's your life at stake, you have some choices:

1. Let the doctor do whatever he wants. Never question him, and never ask for a second opinion. Above all, don't familiarize yourself with what's wrong with you, other than to ask, "am I going to be OK, Doc?"

2. Question the doctor. I'm not saying to be an annoyance, but we're talking about life and death, or heavy duty mayhem. Ask for a second opinion. Familiarize yourself with what's wrong with you. Read the literature. And when he says, "you'll be fine" you should check.

I'm saying #2 is the rational way to go. And everyone else seems to think that's a stupid thing to do.

What if you get 5 second opinions and they all still say the same thing?

I know what bulemia is thanks.

Didnt know she was bulemic though.

well she basically killed herself, so she is going to go to hell anyways...


and ya this topic is starting to seem really stupid to me.
Don't they have anything with intent when it comes to killing yourself?

If anything, at the time of her eating disorder, she should have been getting help with what would be a low self esteem and probably some screwy ideas on her appearance. I somehow doubt her intent was to wind up bedridden and practically brain dead for 15 years. I'm guessing she wanted to drop a little weight.

This of course makes it mildly ironic that she died of dehydration from having a feeding tube removed, however.

It is sad that she has died but in my opinion I think thats what she would've wanted instead of being only half alive for the 15 years of her life.

It is sad that she has died but in my opinion I think thats what she would've wanted instead of being only half alive for the 15 years of her life.

If she were only half alive, it shouldn't have taken 14 days for her to die, am I right?

Can't you people stop it? What is wrong with you? You're arguing the same old tired points. You're calling names and slinging personal insults. People deserve respect, living and dead. Why is it so hard for you to do that?

PLEASE STOP IT!!!!!!

Because they don't have a brain?

Sorry!

And yes, I am guilty of it and I will apologize! Sorry Zooke. If you want to pray we can pray together via email since apparently these people don't care. If anyone wants to pray, all of my messenger services are on.

If she were only half alive, it shouldn't have taken 14 days for her to die, am I right?
Well, no, considering that only her vital organs were working and she was imobile, not to mention the minimal brain function.

It usually takes someone 3 days to die of dehydration, but since she wasn't really doing anything, it would take a bit longer.

Well, no, considering that only her vital organs were working and she was imobile, not to mention the minimal brain function.

It usually takes someone 3 days to die of dehydration, but since she wasn't really doing anything, it would take a bit longer.

Okay, so, if i strapped you down to a bed, covered your eyes, ears and mouth, it'd make you half-dead if it took you 14 days to die from starvation?

None of this makes any sense.

Is this supposed to be an example of how we should start treating all of our other mentally handicapped humans in the world?

I agree with Zooke.

I think that the religious should pray and the non-religious should give a thought.

Either way, kill the broken record cycle.

The woman died. Yes, it was tragic, but, maybe it was better because that means her and her family don't have to be subject to the media circus feeding frenzy.

Hey, Jaythewise, shut up. Unfortunately since you're protected by the glasses you wear sitting at your computer all day, I can't rightly beat your ass. Unless you have anything remotely intelligent or bold to say, shut up, you little bitch.


i wear contacts and im bigger than you lol

But really could she touch her nose?

Could she make any more noises other than gahhh and mehhh?

I agree with Zooke.

I think that the religious should pray and the non-religious should give a thought.

Either way, kill the broken record cycle.

The woman died. Yes, it was tragic, but, maybe it was better because that means her and her family don't have to be subject to the media circus feeding frenzy.

I agree totally.

Because they don't have a brain?

Sorry!

And yes, I am guilty of it and I will apologize! Sorry Zooke. If you want to pray we can pray together via email since apparently these people don't care. If anyone wants to pray, all of my messenger services are on.

Thank you sugar. Check your yahoo.

Okay, so, if i strapped you down to a bed, covered your eyes, ears and mouth, it'd make you half-dead if it took you 14 days to die from starvation?

None of this makes any sense.

Is this supposed to be an example of how we should start treating all of our other mentally handicapped humans in the world?
Yes, exactly! Now you got it!

You have to be quite bored, or?

Thank you sugar. Check your yahoo.

Your Welcome Zooke.

Thanks for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers email! :)

What if you get 5 second opinions and they all still say the same thing?

1. The doctors in question have to be board certified in the field they are making a judgment call.

2. They must all work for completely separate medical facilities.
3. They must never have worked together before.
4. They must be currently active in handling patients (this rules out most court appointed doctors in my area, as well as most expert witnesses).
5. In extreme cases, they should be able to show me the data, and I should be able to compare it to published literature.

In that case, OK. I would probably be happy with 2 doctors' opinions.

But not with the opinion of a GP on matters of brain function.
Not with the opinion of a doctor who is not currently board certified in that speciality.
Not with one who has a personal relationship or monetary relationship shared with the other doctor.
Not with a doctor I did not personally choose.
Not with a court appointed doctor or expert who has no current patients.

Yes, exactly! Now you got it!

You have to be quite bored, or?

Hmm... so can i use you as an example and do that do you? Or if you couldn't reply and defend yourself and communicate to me, wouldln't you be really, really pissed at me?

It usually takes someone 3 days to die of dehydration, but since she wasn't really doing anything, it would take a bit longer.
It takes 3 days to die from dehydration, once you're already dehydrated. If you were fully hydrated before, it takes considerably longer.

iLock pending Moderator review.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Hey, Jaythewise, shut up. Unfortunately since you're protected by the glasses you wear sitting at your computer all day, I can't rightly beat your ass. Unless you have anything remotely intelligent or bold to say, shut up, you little bitch.
Ishballa, I don't care what your opinion is on the Schiavo case, this sort of remark it not permitted here. You want to flame people - go find some unmoderated forum. You'll manage to keep things civilized here, or we'll invite you to leave. Clear?

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator