NationStates Jolt Archive

If I was to say that people of African origin are in general better at sprinting than people of European origin, I doubt anyone would label me a racist.

If I was to use statistics as credible to explain why some people believe people of African descent to have lower IQs is this racist? Probably would be considered to be.

What I have an IMMENSE problem with is racism, but also the way in which africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority.

If I was to say that people of African origin are in general better at sprinting than people of European origin, I doubt anyone would label me a racist.

If I was to use statistics as credible to explain why some people believe people of African descent to have lower IQs is this racist? Probably would be considered to be.

What I have an IMMENSE problem with is racism, but also the way in which africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority.
Have any facts to back up your claim of "africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority"? no? thought not

What I have an IMMENSE problem with is racism, but also the way in which africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority.

Meh ... get over it.

I didn't say that was my opinion...I actually believe that race is nothing more than a pigment and bone structure and cultural thing...but there we are. I think that white people are being treated unfairly in the light of political correctness/affirmative action though.

I didn't say that was my opinion...I actually believe that race is nothing more than a pigment and bone structure and cultural thing...but there we are. I think that white people are being treated unfairly in the light of political correctness/affirmative action though.
Sometimes they can be ... but it seems like it is worse then it is cause WE HAVE EVERYTHING

I am not for the quota system at all but I am not going to stop trying to make things more equal just because it hurts to give ground a little

I think that white people are being treated unfairly in the light of political correctness/affirmative action though.

Meh ... get over it.

Well colour me bored.

Well colour me bored.
Why thats a horse of a different colour

Well colour me bored.

*breaks out the crayons*

What I have an IMMENSE problem with is racism, but also the way in which africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority.

What do you mean by 'africans' here? Do the Boers count?

No, they don't...they're not of African descent when it comes to genetics now are they. ;)

No, they don't...they're not of African descent when it comes to genetics now are they. ;)
Generaly it is believed that we are all of african desent (unless you are a creationist ... then we are all decended from adam)

so it could be said they ARE from african decent

What do you mean by 'africans' here? Do the Boers count?

Pardon my ignorance but what is a Boer?

In an unrelated quote "I was saying boo-urns!"

Pardon my ignorance but what is a Boer?

In an unrelated quote "I was saying boo-urns!"

AKA Afrikaners.

No, they don't...they're not of African descent when it comes to genetics now are they. ;)

Technically yes, they are, if we are to accept the current interpretation of the fossil record.

Pardon my ignorance but what is a Boer?

In an unrelated quote "I was saying boo-urns!"

Boers are the Dutch who settled in South Africa. Orange Free State and the like. Kicked some British ass until the Brtis invented concentration camps and forced em to surrender or watch their kids and womenfolk starve.

"If I was to say that people of African origin are in general better at sprinting than people of European origin, I doubt anyone would label me a racist.

If I was to use statistics as credible to explain why some people believe people of African descent to have lower IQs is this racist? Probably would be considered to be.
"


In both cases you are using prejuice.
You use a specific fact ( international races useto be winning by afro-americans ) to say an opinion without analice all posibles causes that affect it.
And you accept your conclusions as the FACT

There are some great sprinter afro-americans tht use to take all gold medals. It doesn´t mean nothing about ALL afro-americans

You don´t analize cultural, social influences


Example : Abebe Bikila was one of the better ever born marathon man. Why ? because he was black, because was ethiopian or because he was postman and has to run many many km every day to give the ltters since he was child ???????




The second point is that in the sprint case you use your prejuices and a reality ( the winners in races ) as a positive point.
But with IQ you use your prejuices and nothing ( i have never see a serious ( SERIOUS ) comparative studi that set it ) as a bad point


Last point :

Prejuices use to be always a point for racisn, but when is considered positive use to be acceptable


I don´t accept neither the 2 phrases you said ( sprinting , IQ ) and i believe both are racism prejuices

No, I don't mean RIGHT at the beginning of time. I mean in the short term, Boers are dutch colonists.

Can people actually read what I write rather than put words in my mouth? My original statement was presenting two sides of an argument. I don't believe eithe r to be true, I'll make that CLEAR now.

what is affirmative action? Never heard of it in england. i hate racism and homophobes btw.

i do generally think that african origin people are better runners, but that is due to climate and evolution.

what is affirmative action? Never heard of it in england. i hate racism and homophobes btw.

Giving a certain race special priveladges. Sometimes quota, sometimes welfare benefits, sometimes free medical.. etc etc.

Affirmative action happens here.. Except it's for the majority rather than the minority race. :p Funneh eh? I think we're the only country that practices that.

Whites do not "have everything".

Jews do.

Forget about skin color, it is a pointless debate, think anti-semitism.

Ehrenreich Von Töte
ÜberKommander

Affrimative Action affords certain races (usually a minority) certain advantages over another. In the UK, it works as such. You, Ted Jones, are white with 3 As at A level. Your friend, Imminder Patel, is Asian and has an A and 2 BS. You apply for the same place at University, he gets it because of his ethnic status. That is affirmative action in the UK.

Plus, the Boers didn't exactly kick arse. The historical interpretations of that are very biased, in actuality the Boers fought a successful guerilla campaign against the organised, better trained British Army. It's the British equivalent of Vietnam, shameful, but taught the Brits valuable lessons which ensured they fought WW1 with comparitive skill and ability in comparison to their allies and enemies.

Whites do not "have everything".

Jews do.


Evidence for this statement?

Affrimative Action affords certain races (usually a minority) certain advantages over another. In the UK, it works as such. You, Ted Jones, are white with 3 As at A level. Your friend, Imminder Patel, is Asian and has an A and 2 BS. You apply for the same place at University, he gets it because of his ethnic status. That is affirmative action in the UK.

Plus, the Boers didn't exactly kick arse. The historical interpretations of that are very biased, in actuality the Boers fought a successful guerilla campaign against the organised, better trained British Army. It's the British equivalent of Vietnam, shameful, but taught the Brits valuable lessons which ensured they fought WW1 with comparitive skill and ability in comparison to their allies and enemies.

Krupt Guns. They were in the process of kicking their ass. Ass Kicking. . . a kicked ass. In the rump, a kick.

Well, you might be willing to think that but they really didn't kick that much arse. There weren't that many killed on either side, a lot of the war was riding around South Africa looking for one another.

All races are fundamentally equal... affirmative action is bad but probably necessary, in some cases, for now. Racism is bad and unneccessary.

There are some professions whose members, I believe, should more closely represent the distribution of cultures/ethnicities in their society, even if it requires some sort of affirmative action in order to achieve this. I am thinking specifically of police officers.

The city I live in has a very ethnically/culturally diverse makeup, but the police force is heavily dominated by men and women of European descent. Significant evidence has come forward over the last year suggesting that racism and racial profiling are endemic on the force and that members of minority communities do not feel at all comfortable dealing with them. Interactions between the police and minority citizens are often unneccessarily confrontational. Moreover, a prominent police officer of African descent quit the force recently, citing harassment by other officers on the basis of her ethnicity.

I think having a police force that adequately represents the ethnic/cultural makeup of our city will mitigate the endemic racism and that such a force would be better able to connect with and serve all of our city's residents. I agree that the problem is ultimately the behaviour of the police officers rather than their ethnicuty, but as long as our society is characterized by (overt or covert) racism, a police force that is predominantly "white" will be more likely to engage in racist behaviour -- or, if not, to be perceived as racist -- than one which is more diverse.

Hopefully, one day, there will be no need for affirmative action in any context, as all ethnic groups will be recognized as equal in their abilities and will have equal opportunity to excel.

i do generally think that african origin people are better runners, but that is due to climate and evolution.
I thought they had more red corpuscles or something to that tune as well.

Well, you might be willing to think that but they really didn't kick that much arse. There weren't that many killed on either side, a lot of the war was riding around South Africa looking for one another.

ass kicked. ...tee hee hee

on a different note, what is with the unusual way you begin most posts with one bold word, a black line and then the rest of the post? not meant to be insulting, just wondering.

If I was to say that people of African origin are in general better at sprinting than people of European origin, I doubt anyone would label me a racist.
I would, because it's not true.
It's more a matter of sociological processes, coupled with pertinacious thinking like yours that accounts for most of the reasons why Blacks win more sprinting medals than whites.

No, I don't mean RIGHT at the beginning of time. I mean in the short term, Boers are dutch colonists.

Ah - so Zola Budd wasn't good at sprinting because of her racial background because she wasn't in the short term descended from African peoples, whereas Ben Johnson was?

There was a lot of looking for each other, but casualties were heavy. 20,000 British troops were killed and 22,000+ wounded, so out of the net employed manpower of around 450,000, this is close to 10% losses total. However, only about 7,000 losses were due to actual combat killed with 13,000 lost to disease.

I thought they had more red corpuscles or something to that tune as well.
Only the Kenyans, because their country is over 5000ft above sea level on average. At that level, your body adapts to the thinner air but creating more red blood cells to catch as much oxygen in each breath as it can. If anyone was to stay at that altitude for more than a fortnight, their bodies will adapt to do this. It's called altitude training (for obvious reasons) and a lot of endurance athletes do this. Blood doping does pretty much the same thing incidently - though it does create more stress on the heart as it hasn't had time to adapt to the thicker blood. Which is why you occasionally hear of top cyclists having heart attacks.
However you lose the extra advantage when you return to sea level.
Kenyans don't though, cause their bodies have naturally adapted over 10s of thousands of years.

It's a moot point, however, as this only helps you when running aerobically - more oxygen pushed through your muscles, the more efficient they become.
The author of this thread was talking about sprinters - and as they are running anaerobically (technically using their Creatine Phosphate system), their muscles aren't using oxygen. Look closely at the slo-mo of a 100m sprint next time you have a chance - most sprinters breath once or twice the whole race.

In other words, this Kenyan adaption gives no creedence to the belief that Blacks are better sprinters.

And again, it's sociological and economic reasons why they so good at running. They run because it's their national sport and because it is cheap. They are well adapted for long-distance events, but I've yet to see a Kenyan win the Tour De France. Why is no-one saying Americans are perfectly suited for long-distance cycling, based on Lance Armstrong's incredible talent? Or that Britons have the perfect physiques for rowing, because of Steve Redgrave and Matthew Pinsent amazing feats.

Ah - so Zola Budd wasn't good at sprinting because of her racial background because she wasn't in the short term descended from African peoples, whereas Ben Johnson was?
She was good at tripping over and failing to finish, though this probably came from her british side (a la Paula Radcliffe).

i want to know who said this:

"Black people should be allowed to be racist...it's our debt as a society."

TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT!

How they hell can you WANT racism to endure? Because that's what you voted for!

Have any facts to back up your claim of "africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority"? no? thought not

I don't have any facts other than personal experience. I've seen it happen over and over again here in Benton Harbor, MI.

As quoted by sceptical Bodies Without Organs
Evidence for this statement?

Evidence:

America, Wall Street, Hollywood, all written medias, television, Fortune 500, Israël, Bank district, Middle east... Shall I continue?

Ehrenreich Von Töte
ÜberKommander

"I am of Russian descent and my african peers constantly take the piss out of me for this reason, however, if I ever chose to respond...I'd get into a lot of trouble." Ben Kornilov, 14, London, UK

It's happening in our schools all the time, because people are too scared to address inequality.

what is affirmative action? Never heard of it in england. i hate racism and homophobes btw.

That's because here in the UK it's often called positive discrimination. I think it doesn't really help to suggest that there can be good and bad racial discrimination to be honest. I can see why people initially thought it may be a good idea to introduce such policies. In an ideal world people would get jobs (as an example) based on ability but it was a response to try and redress balances from previous years and make society more representative, which is a difficult dilemma. I think you always run the risk of undermining the position of the employee hired under such a scheme as it infers that they achieved their position because of their colour rather than their ability. It seems to me that there is something almost patronising about the idea too. Unfortunately the only real solutions are long term and involve educating people, this seems unlikely here as all the mainstream political parties are doing their best to play on the fears of the average tabloid paper reader (portraying all gypsies as scum and immigrants as freeloading potential terrorists) in the run up to the election.

As quoted by sceptical Bodies Without Organs
Evidence for this statement?

Evidence:

America, Wall Street, Hollywood, all written medias, television, Fortune 500, Israël, Bank district, Middle east... Shall I continue?



All written media: the Jews control the internet and White Nationalist printed magazines?

As far as whether you need to continue or not, I think you do, you have just given a list of various different things and haven't provided a single shred of evidence that they are controlled/owned by the Jews (I will allow that the Jews do in fact control Israel, obviously). Indulge me.

As quoted by sceptical Bodies Without Organs
Evidence for this statement?

Evidence:

America, Wall Street, Hollywood, all written medias, television, Fortune 500, Israël, Bank district, Middle east... Shall I continue?

Ehrenreich Von Töte
ÜberKommander

With the exception of all written medias (eh?) and israel, I thought most of these places were actually full of Americans! But you can't blame Ehrenreich Von Tote for this particular piece of written media as it was obviously controlled by International Judaism. (it seems they get everywhere)

What I have an IMMENSE problem with is racism, but also the way in which africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority.

It'll pass in a few dozen more years, just ignore it.

It's wrong no matter what logic you wish to apply to it.

It's wrong no matter what logic you wish to apply to it.

Logic tells us nothing about morality: only how we can apply particular systems of ethics, thus your statement falls down.

For example:

All persons of race alpha are subhuman.
Johnny is a person of race alpha.
Ergo, Johnny is subhuman.

Flawless logic.

ooh, betty

Affrimative Action affords certain races (usually a minority) certain advantages over another. In the UK, it works as such. You, Ted Jones, are white with 3 As at A level. Your friend, Imminder Patel, is Asian and has an A and 2 BS. You apply for the same place at University, he gets it because of his ethnic status. That is affirmative action in the UK.

That's not how positive discrimination (affirmative action if your in the US) works. It only kicks in when there are two equal candidates - the empolyer can then take an oppurtunity to make the workplace more representative of the country as a whole. So in your example if two candidadtes had 3 As and were of equal ability the ethnic minority may be chosen. If your explaination were true why are Oxford and Cambridge still white dominated, as are the other old elite insitutions.

Elite is good, it's what makes them the best Universities in the world, definetly in Europe. University shouldn't be for everyone...are you suggesting that black people score lower because they're less intelligent?;)

Race, racism, and affirmative-action (to a large degree - it isn't just applied to race) are all based in bad ideas, based in 18th and 19th century science that has been fully discredited.

Race as considered by the posters in this thread, is a political fiction, nothing more. There is only one existant race of H.sapiens. Once that filters through the collective psyche, affirmative-action and racism will have been addressed by default.

Have any facts to back up your claim of "africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority"? no? thought not

Oh, this one is EASY! Have a black guy walk up to a black guy and say, "Sup, ******?" Friendly back and forth and they do whatever.

Have a black guy walk up to a white guy and say, "Sup, ******?" Friendly back and forth and they do whatever.

NOW, have a white guy for ANY reason walk up to a black guy and say, "Sup, ******?" You have one dead white guy.

This simple, but effective, example proves this. I know many MANY blacks, my best friend is black. And I can tell you two things. He is extremely smart(good college grades) and a great guy(I'd trust him with my life). He fails to make the common black mistake of saying:
I'm African! He's not, he's American. My girlfriend, from Zambia, is African though she's of Indian decent.

I'm repressed! He's not. He's used all the little scholarships, govt grants, etc... to make his way and is doing quite well with his wife and daughter. He's had a MUCH easier time getting money for school than I did.

Compensate me for the slavery thing! He's not stupid PERIOD!

Ok, I lie. He says all these things but as a steriotype joke with me and our crowd.

Oh, and before you start shouting, "You KKK loving, white-supremist, ass-hole!" I'm Mexican. :P

You wanna know the truth? You send an American black to live among the African blacks and you'll have ONE DEAD BLACK! They hate American blacks over there because you guys have it EASY! If you think things are bad here, do a lil research. My gf, who lived 17 years of her life there, has told me things I couldn't even imagine possible. It is horrible. The AIDS rate, the murder rate, the corrupt government, etc.... A nation is starving to death because their leader kicked out(or had killed) all of the white farmers so that blacks could take over their farms. Guess what! They fields are untilled and the food stopped coming. Don't believe that? Look it up!

Oh, and to you flamers, at least learn to spell before you start trying to rebuke me. I'm not so stupid to ask you to actually look things up, but use a spell checker or something. My spelling is not great, but it is so much better than most flamers.

That's not how positive discrimination (affirmative action if your in the US) works. It only kicks in when there are two equal candidates -

Not necessarily, I can't say 100% now but in the past definately some employers had a quota system where there had to be a certain % of people from minority groups, it is conceivable that a lower ability candidate could be employed to make up the numbers. I don't see how this can be positive - it is demeaning to the hired employee, it creates resentment from being seen as unfair and is usually a means to demonstrate a paper commitment to equal opportunities as oppose to a genuine effort. Ultimately it's an over simple answer to a complicated question.

One of the problems I have with affirmative action is this:

In order to keep statistics, and in order to grant one group of people more privileges (such as being able to get into a school with lower grades and lower test scores), you have to classify people according to race. Additionally, you have to provide a legal definition for each race.

This, by definition, is racism. It legally enshrines the concept of race for all time.

One of the problems I have in the US is the use of racism and affirmative action to mask the real problem - class inequity.

Take college and university in the US for example. It's a combination of your grades, test scores, AND your ability to pay. That last part is probably more of a hurdle to minorities in this country who belong to lower economic classes. It's a hell of a hurdle to white people who belong to lower economic classes.

If you said, "the government will finance all higher education," and you said, "students will get into school based on their grades and test scores ALONE", I bet things would even out more quickly than if you waved your hands and enshrined racism and made affirmative action the law of the land.

One of the problems I have with affirmative action is this:

In order to keep statistics, and in order to grant one group of people more privileges (such as being able to get into a school with lower grades and lower test scores), you have to classify people according to race. Additionally, you have to provide a legal definition for each race.

This, by definition, is racism. It legally enshrines the concept of race for all time.


It's even worse than that. The US census allows for self identification of race. Plus it confuses race (a discredited concept based on biology) with ethnicity (a viable concept based culture). I'm not sure, but it is my understanding that the the "one drop" rule (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mixed/onedrop.html) is still considered the legal definition.

One of the problems I have in the US is the use of racism and affirmative action to mask the real problem - class inequity.

Take college and university in the US for example. It's a combination of your grades, test scores, AND your ability to pay. That last part is probably more of a hurdle to minorities in this country who belong to lower economic classes. It's a hell of a hurdle to white people who belong to lower economic classes.

If you said, "the government will finance all higher education," and you said, "students will get into school based on their grades and test scores ALONE", I bet things would even out more quickly than if you waved your hands and enshrined racism and made affirmative action the law of the land.

I absolutely agree.

If I was to say that people of African origin are in general better at sprinting than people of European origin, I doubt anyone would label me a racist.

If I was to use statistics as credible to explain why some people believe people of African descent to have lower IQs is this racist? Probably would be considered to be.

What I have an IMMENSE problem with is racism, but also the way in which africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority.

<-- pats little troll on the head.

Shoo! Shoo now!

This is an interesting debate, patrionising me only serves to highlight your own intellectual inadequacies. If this is going over your head, I'm sure we can get you a copy of the post in Alphabetty Soup.

If I was to say that people of African origin are in general better at sprinting than people of European origin, I doubt anyone would label me a racist.

If I was to use statistics as credible to explain why some people believe people of African descent to have lower IQs is this racist? Probably would be considered to be.

What I have an IMMENSE problem with is racism, but also the way in which africans are afforded far more leeway and leniance when it comes to racist opinions than any other minority.

There are no races from a biological standpoint. Statistically, certain things may be true, but there is nothing inherent in any ethnicity that makes those things true.

This is an interesting debate, patrionising me only serves to highlight your own intellectual inadequacies. If this is going over your head, I'm sure we can get you a copy of the post in Alphabetty Soup.


You're partially right.

Your ignorant racist spew deserves far worse than to be patronized.

But I was trying to be nice.

Bad troll!

All races are fundamentally equal... affirmative action is bad but probably necessary, in some cases, for now. Racism is bad and unneccessary.

There are some professions whose members, I believe, should more closely represent the distribution of cultures/ethnicities in their society, even if it requires some sort of affirmative action in order to achieve this. I am thinking specifically of police officers.

The city I live in has a very ethnically/culturally diverse makeup, but the police force is heavily dominated by men and women of European descent. Significant evidence has come forward over the last year suggesting that racism and racial profiling are endemic on the force and that members of minority communities do not feel at all comfortable dealing with them. Interactions between the police and minority citizens are often unneccessarily confrontational. Moreover, a prominent police officer of African descent quit the force recently, citing harassment by other officers on the basis of her ethnicity.

I think having a police force that adequately represents the ethnic/cultural makeup of our city will mitigate the endemic racism and that such a force would be better able to connect with and serve all of our city's residents. I agree that the problem is ultimately the behaviour of the police officers rather than their ethnicuty, but as long as our society is characterized by (overt or covert) racism, a police force that is predominantly "white" will be more likely to engage in racist behaviour -- or, if not, to be perceived as racist -- than one which is more diverse.

Hopefully, one day, there will be no need for affirmative action in any context, as all ethnic groups will be recognized as equal in their abilities and will have equal opportunity to excel.


Statistics also say that minorities commit more crimes and are less likely to TRY and be an officer of the law. The only requirement for being a cop is extreme competence, diversity and seeming political correctness are anathema to the necessary autocracy that is any police force. As for perception, who cares, I percieve this as a speceious argument but you could probably care less what I think couldn't you?