NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/30/stem.cells.ap/index.html

California, New Jersey, New York, etc.

Now Massachusetts (well, if their puritanical governor doesn't veto it).

Three cheers for Stem Cell research!

Victory!

now how great would it be if we withheld the cures from the states that banned the research?

sorry, but since you are so outset against this sort of research being done, we're afraid that you just don't deserve the fruits that come out of it. too late to jump on the bandwagon now

You people just don't get it do you?

1: Stem cells can be obtained through IMBELICAL CORDS! You don't have to force Christians to mock thier God, you don't have to raise a rucus from conservatives, just fucking use the imbelical you stubborn peice of shit!

2: Cloning is a bad idea in any situation, how many times must we stress this? I don't think it's going to all be evil zombie clones 28 days where we all die, but it would bring hassles I'd rather not deal with.

I'm just really REALLY tired of having to repeat myself, and you liberals never listen because you have your head up your ass and you refuse to take into consideration that you may be wrong, the good that could come from these things hardly outweighs the risk factor, deal with it.

And if push comes to shove I guess i'll just have to start hitting everyone i come across over the head with a hammer. There, use the cells of the guy with a concussion..

You people just don't get it do you?

1: Stem cells can be obtained through IMBELICAL CORDS! You don't have to force Christians to mock thier God, you don't have to raise a rucus from conservatives, just fucking use the imbelical you stubborn peice of shit!

2: Cloning is a bad idea in any situation, how many times must we stress this? I don't think it's going to all be evil zombie clones 28 days where we all die, but it would bring hassles I'd rather not deal with.

I'm just really REALLY tired of having to repeat myself, and you liberals never listen because you have your head up your ass and you refuse to take into consideration that you may be wrong, the good that could come from these things hardly outweighs the risk factor, deal with it.

And if push comes to shove I guess i'll just have to start hitting everyone i come across over the head with a hammer. There, use the cells of the guy with a concussion..

1) that's flamebait.

2) umbilical cords are not as effective as embryonic cells

3) most anti-stem cell laws outlaw umbilical cell research anyway.

4) just because you don't want to deal with them doesn't mean there are other people who are perfectly capable, and perfectly willing, to deal with them

5) look a person with parkinson's disease in the face and tell them that you would rather save a lump of flesh the size of the head of a pin than cure their disease. i dare you.

6) "And if push comes to shove I guess i'll just have to start hitting everyone i come across over the head with a hammer. There, use the cells of the guy with a concussion" makes no sense whatsoever.

at all

in the slightest.

Damnit, Yammus beat me to it...

*shakes fist*

You people just don't get it do you?

1: Stem cells can be obtained through IMBELICAL CORDS! You don't have to force Christians to mock thier God, you don't have to raise a rucus from conservatives, just fucking use the imbelical you stubborn peice of shit!

2: Cloning is a bad idea in any situation, how many times must we stress this? I don't think it's going to all be evil zombie clones 28 days where we all die, but it would bring hassles I'd rather not deal with.

I'm just really REALLY tired of having to repeat myself, and you liberals never listen because you have your head up your ass and you refuse to take into consideration that you may be wrong, the good that could come from these things hardly outweighs the risk factor, deal with it.

And if push comes to shove I guess i'll just have to start hitting everyone i come across over the head with a hammer. There, use the cells of the guy with a concussion..

Until a mod sees this inflammatory response and issues an official comment, let me say that you really need to switch to decaf.

oh, and to respond to your points;

1) UMBILICAL cord stem cells are not as versatile and therefore not as beneficial to research as embryonic stem cells.

2) Says who? WHo the hell are you, or anyone else to make a blanket statement like that?

You people just don't get it do you?

1: Stem cells can be obtained through IMBELICAL CORDS! You don't have to force Christians to mock thier God, you don't have to raise a rucus from conservatives, just fucking use the imbelical you stubborn peice of shit!

2: Cloning is a bad idea in any situation, how many times must we stress this? I don't think it's going to all be evil zombie clones 28 days where we all die, but it would bring hassles I'd rather not deal with.

I'm just really REALLY tired of having to repeat myself, and you liberals[I] never listen because you have your head up your ass and you refuse to take into consideration that you may be wrong, the good that could come from these things hardly outweighs the risk factor, deal with it.

And if push comes to shove I guess i'll just have to start hitting everyone i come across over the head with a hammer. There, use the cells of the guy with a concussion..
Why must you assume that everyone is a liberal...I will eat your soul. And also,
HAZZAH!!!

You people just don't get it do you?

1: Stem cells can be obtained through IMBELICAL CORDS! You don't have to force Christians to mock thier God, you don't have to raise a rucus from conservatives, just fucking use the imbelical you stubborn peice of shit!

It seems that you are the type that never listens, considering that the stem cells obtained from umbilical cords are not embryonic stem cells and do not have the same potential uses as embryonic stem cells.

Saying "Just use X type of stem cell," is like saying "Sure, you can practice medicine, but the only drug you can ever give is aspirin. Nothing else. Only aspririn. Aspirin is a drug and it should be enough for you."

It seems that you are the type that never listens, considering that the stem cells obtained from umbilical cords are not embryonic stem cells and do not have the same potential uses as embryonic stem cells.

Saying "Just use X type of stem cell," is like saying "Sure, you can practice medicine, but the only drug you can ever give is aspirin. Nothing else. Only aspririn. Aspirin is a drug and it should be enough for you."
Yep.

In regards to the concussion thing, I think it means that he will kill the 'evil pinko-nazi-commie- liberal-demmicracys' that allowed this stuff to pass, and then send off their adult stem cells for research.

I'm a part of project-decode, and I'll save you all... So why not show your appreciation right now and give me a pile of money?

In regards to the concussion thing, I think it means that he will kill the 'evil pinko-nazi-commie- liberal-demmicracys' that allowed this stuff to pass, and then send off their adult stem cells for research.
Do you mean like, he'll badmouth the subcognizenti target of the day right up until he can take their efforts from them and make some $ on it?
Reminds me of something, can't quite put my finger on it ....

heres my only point, and i may be new here, but still chew on this.

In the US it is legal to have an abortion. what many scientists want to do is use these aborted children, who have been killed, to save lives. What we are saying by this, is that we are allowed to kill unborn children, but we are not allowed to use them to save other lives.

I am not saying abortion is right in this, nor am I saying stem cell research is correct. All that I am doing is pointing out an inconsistency in the government which does not make sense!

Victory!

now how great would it be if we withheld the cures from the states that banned the research?

Not very. It would simply punish the entire population of a state for the arrogant crimes of a few in charge with religious aspirations.

Not very. It would simply punish the entire population of a state for the arrogant crimes of a few in charge with religious aspirations.


awww..........


you had to kill my fun, didn't you ;)

:p

You people just don't get it do you?

1: Stem cells can be obtained through IMBELICAL CORDS! You don't have to force Christians to mock thier God, you don't have to raise a rucus from conservatives, just fucking use the imbelical you stubborn peice of shit!

2: Cloning is a bad idea in any situation, how many times must we stress this? I don't think it's going to all be evil zombie clones 28 days where we all die, but it would bring hassles I'd rather not deal with.

I'm just really REALLY tired of having to repeat myself, and you liberals never listen because you have your head up your ass and you refuse to take into consideration that you may be wrong, the good that could come from these things hardly outweighs the risk factor, deal with it.

And if push comes to shove I guess i'll just have to start hitting everyone i come across over the head with a hammer. There, use the cells of the guy with a concussion..

Ya, isn't it annoying when you try to state your case in a well supported reasonable manner and then the yucky liberals resort to namecalling and threats?

If those liberals are so opposed to using imecilical chords then maybe we should just ban them from cord blood banking. [/sarcasm]

Not very. It would simply punish the entire population of a state for the arrogant crimes of a few in charge with religious aspirations.

Not really, there'd just be a brain drain where all of the reasonable people who've learned to stop imposing their superstition on the rest of the country will move to more progressive states.

I say we take the reasoning further and withold federal tax revenue from states that vote for lower taxes and currently recieve more tax money than they pay out.

I say we take the reasoning further and withold federal tax revenue from states that vote for lower taxes and currently recieve more tax money than they pay out.
Interesting idea. I wonder if someone will refute with a good argument ... not me.

Not very. It would simply punish the entire population of a state for the arrogant crimes of a few in charge with religious aspirations.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that what sanctions and trade embargoes do? Punish the entire population of a nation for the crimes of the few in charge? Come to think of it, has it ever changed the mindsets of said nations?

I won't deny the brain drain bit though. I've seen that kind of thing happen in various states before where the younger population simply upped and left because the ones in charge were letting unemployment skyrocket and doing nothing about it.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that what sanctions and trade embargoes do? Punish the entire population of a nation for the crimes of the few in charge? Come to think of it, has it ever changed the mindsets of said nations?

You are absolutely correct, economic blockades typically strengthen the hand of the local tyrant since the domestic population is now dependant on HIM for survival. It's pretty easy to track down dissidents, just round 'em up when they go to redeem their food stamps. Like in, errr. Hmmmm. Oh, yeah! Iraq throughout the 90's

I won't deny the brain drain bit though. I've seen that kind of thing happen in various states before where the younger population simply upped and left because the ones in charge were letting unemployment skyrocket and doing nothing about it.

I'm with you, though not 100% since a lot of unemployed people can't afford to move.

heres my only point, and i may be new here, but still chew on this.

In the US it is legal to have an abortion. what many scientists want to do is use these aborted children, who have been killed, to save lives. What we are saying by this, is that we are allowed to kill unborn children, but we are not allowed to use them to save other lives.

I am not saying abortion is right in this, nor am I saying stem cell research is correct. All that I am doing is pointing out an inconsistency in the government which does not make sense!

You are horribly misinformed. Aborted fetuses are not used in stem cell research. For the most part, they could not be. For one, embryonic stem cells cannot be obtained from a fetus - they aren't present anymore. For another, most fetuses are destroyed too much during abortion so that no useful cells could really be obtained from them.

That said, discarded embryos from in vitro fertilization clinics *are* used for embryonic stem cell research. IVF is also legal in this country. In fact, many of those opposed to stem cell research support it as a method of reproduction, even though they incinerate hundreds of embryos. These are embryos slated for destruction anyways, which have never been implanted in a human being - and scientists want to use them to help save lives.

Now Massachusetts (well, if their puritanical governor doesn't veto it).

You don't like reading about him? Hell, this guy's my governor! I gotta suffer from his shit!

1. God why did so many people flame carbdown's post? It probably had more effort put into it then the bs most people post. I think someone even said "why do you assume we're all liberal". I think that proved carb's head up their ass theory. This is a highly liberal, anti bush, and anti american forum. Even alot of the people who live in america keep saying how they hate it. Open your eyes.

2. I'm sure there are alot of people with parkinson's that i would choose a ball of skin over, but thats just me.

3. To the guy who said something along the lines of you beat me to it *shakes fist*, I'm sure you would have written a stupid post that did absolutely nothing but try to make fun of carb. you probably say there waiting for someone to respond to him 'cause you knew you would make an ass of yourself.

1. God why did so many people flame carbdown's post?

I didn't see much actual flaming, but the post was criticized for several reasons.

(a) It is, itself, obviously a flame.
(b) It is full of innaccuracies.
(c) It is nothing more than a repeat of rhetoric that makes it obvious Carb hasn't bothered to actually research the subject.

If someone says, "USE THE OTHER STEM CELLS YOU IDIOTS!", which is basically like Carb said, it is obvious that they are ill-informed.

If, on the other hand, Carb had said something halfway intelligent, like "I realize that there are differences between embryonic and umbilical stem cells and their potential uses. However, I do not personally believe that human embryos should be used in research at all, and thus the benefit does not overcome the cost," then I would repect him/her. I would respectfully disagree, and would ask for the grounds on which this personal belief was based, so that I could determine if said grounds warranted forcing said belief on other people, but I would respect it.

It probably had more effort put into it then the bs most people post.

You are kidding, right?

I think someone even said "why do you assume we're all liberal". I think that proved carb's head up their ass theory. This is a highly liberal, anti bush, and anti american forum. Even alot of the people who live in america keep saying how they hate it. Open your eyes.

So that must mean that Carb and Arragoth are both highly liberal, anti-bush, and anti-american. After all, you just stated that someone can make the assumption that *everyone* on this forum is liberal.

So that must mean that Carb and Arragoth are both highly liberal, anti-bush, and anti-american. After all, you just stated that someone can make the assumption that *everyone* on this forum is liberal.
I wouldn't mind if someone assumed I was liberal. Most of the forum is liberal, so it would seem to be a safe assumption. If you actually read through my post I never said to assume everyone is a liberal, since there are a few of us who aren't, but its ok to assume most people are liberal. If someone did say I was a liberal I would correct them, at worst show them a few of my posts, but I wouldn't get all mad saying DON'T ASSUME I'M A LIBERAL YOU ASSHOLE!

Also most of the conservatives here tend to stick together. If someone flames a conservative post, there is a very good chance its a liberal.

It is good to hear that some headway is made on stem cell research is made. We can finally put religious stigmas aside and finally help people.

Until a mod sees this inflammatory response and issues an official comment, let me say that you really need to switch to decaf.

oh, and to respond to your points;

1) UMBILICAL cord stem cells are not as versatile and therefore not as beneficial to research as embryonic stem cells.

2) Says who? WHo the hell are you, or anyone else to make a blanket statement like that?

Stop quoting the idiot, please. I was having a perfectly good time reading this thread with his post hidden behind an ignore message. :p

I wouldn't mind if someone assumed I was liberal. Most of the forum is liberal, so it would seem to be a safe assumption. If you actually read through my post I never said to assume everyone is a liberal, since there are a few of us who aren't, but its ok to assume most people are liberal. If someone did say I was a liberal I would correct them, at worst show them a few of my posts, but I wouldn't get all mad saying DON'T ASSUME I'M A LIBERAL YOU ASSHOLE!

Also most of the conservatives here tend to stick together. If someone flames a conservative post, there is a very good chance its a liberal.


In response to this entire line of discussion:

I have seen so many idiots come in here spitting and roaring and cussing out everone who disagrees the minute they get a piece of "scientific" evidence (or not even that).

I have also seen people I belive are mistaken, but they are so articulate that it's hard for me to argue with their logic. Those people I resepect. Not those who say "all you liberals" or "All you conservatives" or "all you anything"

unless it's super specific, as in "all you Americans who belive that stem cell research is wrong because it uses the cloning techinique, this is why you might be mistaken."

I wouldn't mind if someone assumed I was liberal.

I wouldn't either. I have been called everything from "right-wing Bush-supporting poopie head" to "left-wing liberal nutjob" on this thread and I generally find it all funny.

Most of the forum is liberal, so it would seem to be a safe assumption. If you actually read through my post I never said to assume everyone is a liberal, since there are a few of us who aren't, but its ok to assume most people are liberal.

You were attacking someone who said "Don't assume we're all liberals" by stating that the board is liberal. As such, you were saying it is ok to assume that everyone is a liberal.

Also most of the conservatives here tend to stick together. If someone flames a conservative post, there is a very good chance its a liberal.

Why do you feel the need to put such labels on everything? The post in question was not "a conservative post," but an incredibly ill-informed flame. Should you really support *anyone's* flaming, regardless of how much you may like their viewpoint?

I have also seen people I belive are mistaken, but they are so articulate that it's hard for me to argue with their logic. Those people I resepect. Not those who say "all you liberals" or "All you conservatives" or "all you anything"

Exactly - and said much better than I put it.

Meanwhile, no one has addressed the actual topic - which is the obvious fact that progress will find a way around anyone trying to force their own personal religion upon the scientific community.

I wouldn't either. I have been called everything from "right-wing Bush-supporting poopie head" to "left-wing liberal nutjob" on this thread and I generally find it all funny.



You were attacking someone who said "Don't assume we're all liberals" by stating that the board is liberal. As such, you were saying it is ok to assume that everyone is a liberal.



Why do you feel the need to put such labels on everything? The post in question was not "a conservative post," but an incredibly ill-informed flame. Should you really support *anyone's* flaming, regardless of how much you may like their viewpoint?

God what if wrong with you, will you listen to me. This isn't about labels or feelings, its about numbers. Do you argue with me that the board is not liberal? If someone flames a conservative's post there is a high chance (would you rather me say percentage) that they are liberal. If someone says "you are all just liberal" they are probably around 80% correct, not perfect but not too shabby either. I do see what you do get irratated by however. When people try to use it as an excuse, that is annoying, but saying that most of the board is liberal has nothing wrong with it.

Until a mod sees this inflammatory response and issues an official comment, let me say that you really need to switch to decaf.

oh, and to respond to your points;

1) UMBILICAL cord stem cells are not as versatile and therefore not as beneficial to research as embryonic stem cells.

2) Says who? WHo the hell are you, or anyone else to make a blanket statement like that?
LG has seriously commented on something.... Im scared!!!

Ahh, good stuff. As I don't regard life as being 'life' in the sense of Human until it can survive out of the womb, I have no personal qualms with using tiny lumps of cells in order to try and fine cures, or even merely alleviators, for some of the most horrible maladies around.

To those who do feel it is a crime, immoral, etc.; Which is worse?

Killing something which has only the potential to become life (Something like 80% of first-time pregnancies end in natural termination, usually before the mother is even aware of it. Don't have figures for later pregnancies, sadly.), in exchange for finding cures for people alive and suffering right now? Or;

Giving the cells a chance (and only a chance), to grow and become Human babies, whilst people are suffering? (Remember also there are countless variables in the life of this person, they might end up quite literally wishing they were never born.)

I can appreciate that one interpretation of that is 'The comfort of people already alive is more important than the very lives of those yet to be born.', and although it is a bit of a stretch, I appreciate the viewpoint. In my opinion though, the former option is the wiser one to take. Indeed, sacrifices now might mean in the future not only do we have less need to use stem cell research (Of any kind), but also that there is less illness and disease.

(Something like 80% of first-time pregnancies end in natural termination, usually before the mother is even aware of it. Don't have figures for later pregnancies, sadly.)

50% of *known* pregnancies end in miscarriage. We know that there are many pregnancies that end prior to the mother even knowing. As such, the figure is generally extrapolated out to state that about 80% of all pregnancies are lost.

Meanwhile, what people don't seem to realize is that stem cell research has nothing whatsoever to do with pregnancy. The embryos used have never and will never be implanted in a human being.