NationStates Jolt Archive

The chest thumping over the elections in Iraq distracted most from the actual election results. (In part because the results were not announced until many days after the elections.) The elections were a tremendous step in many ways, but its a bit early to start predicting a stable Iraqi democracy. As the following articles illustrate, Iraq is still a long ways from even the semblance of a democratic government. In fact, no government at all has resulted from the January elections.

Acrimony dominates Iraqi assembly session (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/29/iraq.main/index.html)

The Iraqi National Assembly failed to choose a speaker Tuesday after arguments broke out among lawmakers and reporters were ordered to leave the session.

Assembly members expressed outrage that no agreement had been reached after two sessions.

"The Iraqi people who defied the security threats and voted -- what shall we tell them? What is the reason for this delay?" politician Hussein al-Sadr told Reuters. Al-Sadr is a member of the coalition led by interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

Eventually, the assembly's acting speaker ordered reporters out of the session and cut off a video feed from the proceedings. Members then huddled in a closed-door meeting.

A Western diplomat watching the session called the decision to cut the video feed "an embarrassment."

....

The assembly has failed to form a new government since the January 30 election of its members. Naming a speaker was to be the first step forward.

Millions of Iraqi voters risked attacks by insurgents to vote in the election.

Taxi driver Mohammed Ahmed Ali told Reuters: "It is a farce. If they couldn't form a government till now, how will they lead a country?"

....

A Power Vacuum in Iraq?
How rules designed to prevent domination hobble the creation of a new government (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1043129,00.html)

More than two months have passed since 8 million Iraqis braved death to go to the polls, but still they have no new government. The new National Assembly met for a second time on Tuesday, with agreement on the makeup of a new executive branch as elusive as ever. So deep was the discord, in fact, that the Assembly failed even to choose a Speaker. Instead of showing signs of progress to an increasingly impatient electorate, the session portrayed the new legislature as a hung parliament. As tempers flared among legislators, TV coverage was cut off in order to stop the broadcast of an embarrassing spectacle. But the reason for the deadlock is not simply a failure of Iraq's elected leaders to achieve consensus. The rules of Iraqi democracy, as bequeathed by outgoing U.S. administrator J. Paul Bremer, require the support of a two-thirds majority in the Assembly for the creation of a new government, a standard that the U.S. political system might struggle to meet.

Iraqi legislators mired in strife. (http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/03/30/iraqi_legislators_mired_in_strife/)

Two months of political wrangling have slowed the naming of a new Iraqi government so dramatically that legislators will probably miss the long-established goal of drafting a constitution by August, and elections scheduled for December are likely to be put off until mid-2006, leaders of the main political parties said yesterday.

I certainly hope the best for our efforts in Iraq, but the elections were not the watershed some seem to think. The prospects for long-term democracy in Iraq are still slim. To think we can simply impose democracy is contradictory.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151769,00.html

President Bush said the differences "will be resolved through debate and persuasion instead of force and intimidation."

"The free people of Iraq are now doing what Saddam Hussein never could: making Iraq a positive example for the entire Middle East," he said.

Some legislators argued the divisions reflected Iraq's new democracy.

"People should get used to seeing different opinions being discussed," al-Anzi said.

...The Sunnis have put forth Adnan al-Janabi, who ran on Allawi's ticket, Wajeeh said. But the Alliance objected because al-Janabi's brother once worked as a senior official of the ruling party under Saddam, he added.

The Alliance said it was ready to name a Sunni from its own coalition, Fawaz al-Jarba, for the post, a proposal that didn't sit well with some Sunnis who accused the Alliance of trying to impose its members. Alliance members deny the charge and argue the Sunnis have failed to agree on a position because they have no unified leadership.

Sunni legislator Meshaan al-Jubouri has said some Sunni members have threatened to walk out of the assembly if they felt their interests were being compromised.

...Together, the Alliance and the Kurds have 215 seats — enough to make key decisions. But their members say they don't want to alienate any of the country's minority groups.

Shiites make up 60 percent of the country's 26 million people. The Kurds, who are largely Sunnis, make up 20 percent, and the Sunni Arabs are roughly 15 to 20 percent.

Some have argued the Sunni Arab candidates being discussed for government posts have no influence on the insurgency and their participation is unlikely to affect it.

Hmmmm....

Looks to me like they have over 80% of the Population fairly Represented, and can build a consensus in the Government.

If one group chose not to Vote and are now demanding representation, this will be a valuable lesson for them to not miss the next Elections...

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

I love Rush!

Regards,
Gaar

EDIT: Perhaps it would do us good to remember how many years it took us to get our own Constitution done.

Hmmmm....

Looks to me like they have over 80% of the Population fairly Represented, and can build a consensus in the Government.

If one group chose not to Vote and are now demanding representation, this will be a valuable lesson for them to not miss the next Elections...

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

I love Rush!

Regards,
Gaar

EDIT: Perhaps it would do us good to remember how many years it took us to get our own Constitution done.

Well how mutch can you demand of the voters? Do you don't realise that many people was to scared to vote? Because the insurgent mainly threathen and launch atacks in the Sunnis areas. And there fear was valide because 30 people died during election day alone, how many more hade dead if the sunnis hade dared voting, making alot more targets for the insurgents. And it not just the electionday, because in a true democracy you also need time for campaigning, and that can be really hard if you facing death, during the campaign.

Hmm, How often does democracy ever really get off to a 'smooth' start?

Perhaps now they'll realize that it takes more to form a democracy than a few bombs and a couple of US-bootlickers and fundamentalist clerics. This seems to me like breaking a few eggs, putting a little salt on it, and then watch and wait for it to magically turn into an omlette.

Has it occurred to anyone at all that you can break eggs without making an omlette? And that this might just have happened here?

Well how mutch can you demand of the voters? Do you don't realise that many people was to scared to vote? Because the insurgent mainly threathen and launch atacks in the Sunnis areas. And there fear was valide because 30 people died during election day alone, how many more hade dead if the sunnis hade dared voting, making alot more targets for the insurgents. And it not just the electionday, because in a true democracy you also need time for campaigning, and that can be really hard if you facing death, during the campaign.

Yeah right...

The overall turnout in Iraq was better than we had in the U.S., percentage wise, in our last Election cycle.

So are you trying to tell me that Arab Sunni's were more afraid than the rest of the population?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Regards,
Gaar

Perhaps now they'll realize that it takes more to form a democracy than a few bombs and a couple of US-bootlickers and fundamentalist clerics. This seems to me like breaking a few eggs, putting a little salt on it, and then watch and wait for it to magically turn into an omlette.

Has it occurred to anyone at all that you can break eggs without making an omlette? And that this might just have happened here?

Well, they are stirring it up...

And I am pretty sure you have to "stir up" those eggs to make an omlette.

So is this the latest Liberal tactic? Can't say they Election won't happen any more, so it's time to start predicting the downfall of the Democratic attempt?

Does it ever end? Do Liberals ever try to see the cup as half full, or is it always half empty with every issue they disagree?

I will freely admit there have been and are problems and they will likely continue to have problems. But can someone admit from the Liberal side that there have been positive achievements over there, or do they see such concessions as weakening their arguments? Cause I don’t see admitting things are going to be tough for a while as weakening mine.

Regards,
Gaar

Yeah right...

The overall turnout in Iraq was better than we had in the U.S., percentage wise, in our last Election cycle.

So are you trying to tell me that Arab Sunni's were more afraid than the rest of the population?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Regards,
Gaar


Wait till you get stationed there, actually been there on the streets for yourself instead of trying to think, and then tell people that the Sunni's wern't more afraid. I've been back for only a month, and I can guarantee you less people in Sunni areas voted. Not to mention that creating an "underclass" from the very start in the creation of their Constitution is just BEGGING for further attacks and more than likely a civil war down the road.

Hmm, How often does democracy ever really get off to a 'smooth' start?

hmmm, how often does democracy get successfully imposed by an invader in a country with no democratic traditions or culture?

Does it ever end?

The moment a working democracy has been set up and survived for a single year (and that's not too much to ask; even America's system has survived for several centuries until recently - and that was a failure waiting to happen if there ever was one). The moment a month goes by without a single Iraqi or occupation soldier dying a violent death. That is the moment when I will cease speaking out against it.

It will not be the moment when I accept this action as a good decision. Not even the most staggering success would be worth the cost in lives and money that has gone into this madness.

hmmm, how often does democracy get successfully imposed by an invader in a country with no democratic traditions or culture?

Well, even if it hasn't perhaps now is as good a time as any to see if we can get it to work...

Maybe a bit shaky start, but not bad by comparison.

Regards,
Gaar

hmmm, how often does democracy get successfully imposed by an invader in a country with no democratic traditions or culture?
At least once. Japan.

The moment a month goes by without a single Iraqi or occupation soldier dying a violent death. That is the moment when I will cease speaking out against it.

It will not be the moment when I accept this action as a good decision. Not even the most staggering success would be worth the cost in lives and money that has gone into this madness.

Funny, we can't even live up to that same standard here in the U.S. after a couple of centuries of Democracy, and you are ready to hold them to it after just a couple of months of Democracy?

How does that work?

Freedom isn't Free and War is Hell.

Regards,
Gaar

At least once. Japan.

Bad example.

The Meiji Constitution of 1889 enshrined the ideals, if not the practice, of democracy.

Japan had a tradition of an elected legislature, a Prime Minister, etc.

The US based the new government on the existing model.

Bad example.

The Meiji Constitution of 1889 enshrined the ideals, if not the practice, of democracy.

Japan had a tradition of an elected legislature, a Prime Minister, etc.

The US based the new government on the existing model.
Not that bad of an example, given that had we not cracked open Japan in the first place to foreign influence and ideas it is relatively likely that the meiji restoration would never have taken place.

Not that bad of an example, given that had we not cracked open Japan in the first place to foreign influence and ideas it is relatively likely that the meiji restoration would never have taken place.

Regardless, Japan is not an example of an invasion force sucessfully imposing democracy on a nation with no democratic traditions or culture. ;)

Regardless, Japan is not an example of an invasion force sucessfully imposing democracy on a nation with no democratic traditions or culture. ;)
What was Commodore Perry leading then? It's not an exact parallel, but then what is concerning history?

Bad example.

The Meiji Constitution of 1889 enshrined the ideals, if not the practice, of democracy.

Japan had a tradition of an elected legislature, a Prime Minister, etc.

The US based the new government on the existing model.

A bad example? Oh, wait, you mean Japan wasn't a militaristic imperial power, which has since become one of the richest, most advanced nations on the planet?

And also, in the first place, the Meiji revolution is unlikely to have happened if Perry, as has been said, hadn't opened Japan up.

The chest thumping over the elections in Iraq distracted most from the actual election results. (In part because the results were not announced until many days after the elections.) The elections were a tremendous step in many ways, but its a bit early to start predicting a stable Iraqi democracy. As the following articles illustrate, Iraq is still a long ways from even the semblance of a democratic government. In fact, no government at all has resulted from the January elections.


Cat-Tribe, I'm wondering. If you had been present during the American Revolution, I do not believe you would have given the new country even the slightest chance of success - and if someone had shown you what the country would grow into, you wouldn't believe it.

Are you expecting instantaneous results?

How much time passed between the time the US declared independence and the time they elected their first President?

How about we look at a bit of "empirical evidence" of what "System" has been dominating the World over the last century...

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/govt1900.htm
(Click on the "next" arrow to see how things progress)

And now perhaps some will admit that we may have just "helped" that Region to get to the result that most everyone else is already coming to?

And then again, perhaps they will never admit it.

Regards,
Gaar

Yeah right...

The overall turnout in Iraq was better than we had in the U.S., percentage wise, in our last Election cycle.

So are you trying to tell me that Arab Sunni's were more afraid than the rest of the population?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Regards,
Gaar

Yes I am just because the most atacks happens in the Sunnipart of Iraq, therefore are who's people most afraid. Look for example in the kurdish part of Iraq there have not have the same number of atacks. And I personally don't think in a true democracy you should not give the people the choice between either be democratic and face the risk of death or be undemocratic by don't voting and secure your own life in the process. For example Americans would never accept a election there 300 people died (rougly the same number of deaths as the Iraqie election per capita).

And as I said before it also the enviroment you do your partywork, if you have a area like the sunnipart there people killed on a daily bases and also the candidates is getting killed and kidnapped, it can be valide to boycott the election because you can't have any effective democratcit process leading up to the election.

hmmm, how often does democracy get successfully imposed by an invader in a country with no democratic traditions or culture?


I love the people that think it should start automatically at a specific moment and run smoothly and flawlessly. You dont have best wishes for Iraq, you long to see another hateful small minded dictator in there, raping and murdering so you can thump your own chest and let everyone know you were right and President Bush and the CIA were the bad guys.
Spare us. There is a significant number- a majority or Iraqis that are trying hard to make this work. And it will certainly take a little longer.

Bad example.

The Meiji Constitution of 1889 enshrined the ideals, if not the practice, of democracy.

Japan had a tradition of an elected legislature, a Prime Minister, etc.

The US based the new government on the existing model.


Japan had a tradition of exterminating the Chinese too.

My, I appear to have touched a nerve.

Pull your hands off the propaganda switches for a minute and pay attention, before you accuse me of supporting Saddam Hussein.

I sincerely hope things work out for the best in Iraq.

I neither predicted nor wish that democracy will fail in Iraq.

But, all is not as rosy as some of you often claim

and I think it is interesting seeing this unique situation develop.

(And that I will not accept poor arguments like "its like Japan" does not mean I either want or predict democracy's failure in Iraq.)

Hmm, How often does democracy ever really get off to a 'smooth' start?

True dat, ho.

*Guns down a little old lady*

Shaky beats nothing at all in my opinion, yes, there will be tough times, but America had just as tough a time just trying to become an independent, democratic nation, and yes, there will be car and suicide bombings and terrorists/insurgents will still exist, but we've have nearly the same kinda problems regarding violence and death on a daily basis, but I'd like to think the election in Iraq meant something, that women being able to vote and even join the security forces meant something, that maybe, just maybe we were right to go in, yeah we went in bungling and messing things up, but now that the US and our allies are there, we can't just drop everything and leave just because the effort may be unpopular, there's too much at stake to cut and run now.