NationStates Jolt Archive

Once you die, you are no more. Your mind is made up of electrical charges. The body is kept alive by electrical charges. If you are in cardiac arrest, they jumpstart you with electricity. So, when you die, your soul doesn't go anywhere. There is no soul. Enjoy your day and leave a legacy. Write an autobiography and a journal of all your thoughts that might be important some day.

yep

This is a very soothing thought. There will be no trace left, except in the memories of others.

Ghosts could be electrical charges that incorrectly dissipated(sp?).

I can live with it (pun?).

Ghosts could be electrical charges that incorrectly dissipated(sp?).
Or faulty wiring in someone alive and full of electricity?

Too simplistic, I'm not buying it. The idea that you cease to exist somehow feels like a cop-out, like I am missing something crucial and taking the easy way out. Perhaps it is easier to opt out rather than try to bend my head around the idea of "eternity". But I feel in my gut that it doesn't end with physical death. If I am right, good for me. If I am wrong, then nothing matters anyway, so I might as well believe.

The ancient Romans believed that the goal of life was to be remembered well.

Just thought I'd throw that in. The Romans were cool, yo.

Too simplistic, I'm not buying it. The idea that you cease to exist somehow feels like a cop-out, like I am missing something crucial and taking the easy way out. Perhaps it is easier to opt out rather than try to bend my head around the idea of "eternity". But I feel in my gut that it doesn't end with physical death. If I am right, good for me. If I am wrong, then nothing matters anyway, so I might as well believe.
Sounds like pascal's wager in a way. I think death is the end, at least to my knoweledge.

sound thinking, but what happens to the electricity that makes up your thoughts, it can't just cease to exist

Too simplistic, I'm not buying it. The idea that you cease to exist somehow feels like a cop-out, like I am missing something crucial and taking the easy way out. Perhaps it is easier to opt out rather than try to bend my head around the idea of "eternity". But I feel in my gut that it doesn't end with physical death. If I am right, good for me. If I am wrong, then nothing matters anyway, so I might as well believe.

I keep hearing christians saying "nothing matters if there is no afterlife". What do you mean by that? Why does nothing matter?

Too simplistic, I'm not buying it. The idea that you cease to exist somehow feels like a cop-out, like I am missing something crucial and taking the easy way out. Perhaps it is easier to opt out rather than try to bend my head around the idea of "eternity". But I feel in my gut that it doesn't end with physical death. If I am right, good for me. If I am wrong, then nothing matters anyway, so I might as well believe.
The only things in the world that have the ability to find anything "simplistic" are ourselves. We will die and decompose like every other cabon-based biological organism in an extremely simple and regular way. There is nothing remarkable about your brain when it somes to the ability to die.

The ancient Romans believed that the goal of life was to be remembered well.

Just thought I'd throw that in. The Romans were cool, yo.

Indeed sir.... until the empire collapsed...

Indeed sir.... until the empire collapsed...
and when they lynched the savior

ps im not a christian, just making that clear

The Romans were cool, yo.

Rather live then than any time until, well today. Except medieval China. They give Rome a challenge.

I guess we will find the truth when we die...

I guess we will find the truth when we die...
weak, besides im not planning on dieing so i need answers now

weak, besides im not planning on dieing so i need answers now

If you are not planning on dying, then the answer is totally irrelevant.

If you are not planning on dying, then the answer is totally irrelevant.
i want to know what will become of my mortal companions

"Theory #2 Death is the end"

I hope your wrong, because that would suck. I kind of like existing

The only things in the world that have the ability to find anything "simplistic" are ourselves. We will die and decompose like every other cabon-based biological organism in an extremely simple and regular way. There is nothing remarkable about your brain when it somes to the ability to die.

You are equating "me" with "my brain" and I do not accept that I am my brain. I have a brain, but I am not my brain. You can keep a brain alive for a long time, even though the owner is really dead.

Oh, and I am not a Christian, per se. I don't see that it makes any difference whether one is or is not a Christian, though. My feelings are not at all religious on the subject.

The ancient Romans believed that the goal of life was to be remembered well.

Just thought I'd throw that in. The Romans were cool, yo.

That was the Greeks, of course your point is valid considering the Romans ganked massive amounts of Greek Culture. The idea was still Greek in origin, for them everyone ended up in the same hell (Erebus, the realm of Hades.) Glorification was only achieved in life, this was generally achieved through physical excellence (the Olympic Games), warfare and general bloodshed, and to some poetry and the like.

It was a helluva good motivation for achievement if I do say so myself.

Too simplistic, I'm not buying it. The idea that you cease to exist somehow feels like a cop-out, like I am missing something crucial and taking the easy way out. Perhaps it is easier to opt out rather than try to bend my head around the idea of "eternity". But I feel in my gut that it doesn't end with physical death. If I am right, good for me. If I am wrong, then nothing matters anyway, so I might as well believe.


actually, i think the idea that some part of you continues on is a cop-out.

people can't handle the fact that they are utterly insignificant, in every way, shape, and form, and would like to think that anything they do means something in some way, and they want to be rewarded for it.

it takes more strength to face the fact that you are nothing.

I've never felt safe when I'm riding in a car and the driver believes in the afterlife.

it takes more strength to face the fact that you are nothing.

Nah, just clinical depression. >.>

Nah, just clinical depression. >.>

Well, that can be a side effect...

actually, i think the idea that some part of you continues on is a cop-out.

people can't handle the fact that they are utterly insignificant, in every way, shape, and form, and would like to think that anything they do means something in some way, and they want to be rewarded for it.

it takes more strength to face the fact that you are nothing.
If we were utterly insignificant, how would we know it?

Thats wrong, do you really not think there is something out there that is bigger then all of us? Why have people since the begining of time had a God or Gods to worship? I think there is truth to religion and an ultimate being.

Nah, just clinical depression. >.>


why would you be depressed?

you just need to put things in perspective.

you are immortal until your name is forgotten.

want to be immortal? do something to get yourself in the history books.

Start a country. Start a Religion.

Confucious is the oldest man on the face of the earth, simply because people still know his name

Thats wrong, do you really not think there is something out there that is bigger then all of us? Why have people since the begining of time had a God or Gods to worship? I think there is truth to religion and an ultimate being.
Or maybe it is as simple as a survival trait ... something that we invented that ended up having the benifit of unifying people under one cause

It does not make it true ... just may have been benificial

Or maybe it is as simple as a survival trait ... something that we invented that ended up having the benifit of unifying people under one cause

It does not make it true ... just may have been benificial
Is not a valid benefit a truth?

(I'm going to speak in riddle questions for the rest of the night)

Thats wrong, do you really not think there is something out there that is bigger then all of us? Why have people since the begining of time had a God or Gods to worship? I think there is truth to religion and an ultimate being.

All the gods provide explanations for things we don't understand. We have alot of answers now and allready alot of the gods are dissappearing. We know lightning isn't Þór waving his hammer, we know what's on top of mount olympus...etc

Is not a valid benefit a truth?
Its avalid truth of belief as a benifit ... not proof of valid truth of the belief
(understood you and vollied back with my own riddle answer :-D which I am sure you understand)

Thats wrong, do you really not think there is something out there that is bigger then all of us? Why have people since the begining of time had a God or Gods to worship? I think there is truth to religion and an ultimate being.

I have always wondered about this though I have never come to a solid conclusion. Religion DOES seem to be one of the uniquely human things that separates us from animals, abandoning it seems to be reducing yourself to the level of other animals. Just seems like anti-progress really.

Then again, quite a few trends today seem to focus on stripping man of what makes man, man.

Its avalid truth of belief as a benifit ... not proof of valid truth of the belief
If it provides peace of mind, is that not measurable?
(responding too quickly, don't catch the edits)

All the gods provide explanations for things we don't understand. We have alot of answers now and allready alot of the gods are dissappearing. We know lightning isn't Þór waving his hammer, we know what's on top of mount olympus...etc
Do not mock Þór!

I have always wondered about this though I have never come to a solid conclusion. Religion DOES seem to be one of the uniquely human things that separates us from animals, abandoning it seems to be reducing yourself to the level of other animals. Just seems like anti-progress really.

Then again, quite a few trends today seem to focus on stripping man of what makes man, man.

Religion as an organization is a social construction ... there are many different forms , the changing or loss of one does not mean we loose what we are , rather may mean we are seeing social evolution

If it provides peace of mind, is that not measurable?
(responding too quickly, don't catch the edits)
Mesurable as a benifit ... but again amount of benifit does not prove the conclusion, it does not follow directly and too many variables between here and there

Thats wrong, do you really not think there is something out there that is bigger then all of us? Why have people since the begining of time had a God or Gods to worship? I think there is truth to religion and an ultimate being.


here:

this was written by a freind of someone at another political debating site.

please excuse the angst.

he makes some really good points on why we have religion in the first place.

The Earth was created by God something like five thousand years ago. There's indeniable proof of this in a book that was written less than two thousand years ago.

Dogma is the most powerful psychological force on Earth. It gives you all the answers so that you don't have to put any strain on the mash in your skull. God gave humans the most incredible brains discovered, but He only intended it as a device for cooling the blood, obviously. Religion gives you a nice comfortable explaination of the workings of the universe, so that you don't have to do the work of thinking about it. It all seems so simple when you don't try.

It's interesting that one can actually see how religion may have occured. Ancient cultures, or at least the ones that Christianity spawned from, were often paternalistic. Fathers were security blankets, capable of great power and protection. When the children became older, the imperfections of fathers became all too apparent, so they needed a new icon to worship for protection and security. God always seems to be a great beard in the sky, because that's what fathers were when you're small (well, they were back when shaving hadn't been invented yet, anyway).

And then we get the element present in every religion: fear. You must be good, or else you'll go to the Bad Place. Keep ploughing those fields, or you'll go to the Bad Place. Don't question anything, ever, or you'll go to the Bad Place. Be a good conservative subservient person, and make sure to finish with those cows, and you'll go to the Good Place. The people who come up with religions don't even have to be particularly intelligent about it. Emphasize Good and Bad, and make worship mandatory to ensure that it really gets drilled in, and you have a powerful and versatile army of robots. They will do what you say without question, and will never complain about working for you. And they will even lay down their lives for their leaders. In war, dogma is an effective tool for converting ordinary ignorance into rage, which is a much easier force to set a vector for. In peace, it converts it into empty hope, which keeps them happy and complacent. Simple.

He can't be wrong. To question His will, which cannot be wrong, is evil. To even consider that God might be incorrect about anything, all the injustice in the world, the suffering, the pain, is evil. Keep your head bowed, do not have thoughts above your station, and God may pat you on the head like a good obedient dog. Or perhaps sheep would be a better analogy?

Suffer, because God wills it. Endure the torture, because it is a trial. Be a mindless, worthless serf, because it is in God's plan. Be a good boy and you'll get a sweetie. Be a bad boy and you'll feel eternal fire.

Of course I could be wrong. Maybe it really all does work the way religion would have you believe, that I'll only recieve pain for trying to think about it. But if you laid down what others told you to think for a moment, and thought about the world yourself, would you arrive at the same conclusions? Why did all those people have to die in the tsunami? Was that important to God's Divine Plan? How much work did you have to do to rationalize that one, religion?

Perhaps it is religion that's wrong. According to them, eighty percent of the world gets damned right out of the gate for not believing in God exactly the right way. It occurs to me that people have trouble comprehending exactly what real suffering and real eternity are. Only the greatest evil of them all would send even the worst sinner to that fate for even five minutes.

Scoffers are willingly ignorant. That means that a person, when reality is laid before them, turns away and scoffs, is doing it deliberately, so that they can be ignorant. I do not think that it is we who are the scoffers.

I already know I have no chance of changing your mind. There's nothing I can do for you, against belief. Logic, nay, even reality is no match for a good propagandist. Your faith is a shield. The same kind of shield that a blanket performs against a monster, or putting your thumbs in your ears and singing does against people trying to talk sense into you.

I can only say that I hope you do your job well. Enjoy the pat.

All the gods provide explanations for things we don't understand. We have alot of answers now and allready alot of the gods are dissappearing. We know lightning isn't Þór waving his hammer, we know what's on top of mount olympus...etc

These explanations for natural phenomenon where given my the "wise men" of their respective culture. People had questions and some creative opportunists provided the answer.

Science fills this role today, people have questions so instead of going to the Skald or Poet they go to Scientists who in turn give a equally creative answer. Don't be so quick to assume progress has actually been made here. People are still just as willing to blindly believe anything that comes from the "expert" on the matter. >.>

here:

this was written by a freind of someone at another political debating site.

please excuse the angst.

he makes some really good points on why we have religion in the first place.
A lot of his ideas fit with mine ... religion as a social construct that had evolutionary benifits

if you can create and hold a large group of zellous people it could be a benifit for thoes that are members of that group

(thinking more the organization then the origionating belief)

Do not mock Þór!

And in the 60's he was a soda. And his hammer is a football club...

Originally Posted by Dementedus_Yammus
actually, i think the idea that some part of you continues on is a cop-out.

people can't handle the fact that they are utterly insignificant, in every way, shape, and form, and would like to think that anything they do means something in some way, and they want to be rewarded for it.

it takes more strength to face the fact that you are nothing.
If we were utterly insignificant, how would we know it?
I want an answer, Braddammit!

These explanations for natural phenomenon where given my the "wise men" of their respective culture. People had questions and some creative opportunists provided the answer.

Science fills this role today, people have questions so instead of going to the Skald or Poet they go to Scientists who in turn give a equally creative answer. Don't be so quick to assume progress has actually been made here. People are still just as willing to blindly believe anything that comes from the "expert" on the matter. >.>
Dont confuse scientist with science ... one is a process ... the other is a person

Yes a lot of people put a lot of stock in scientists, but in that case they are not following the scientific method they only think they are

Just because people follow it incorrectly does not make what they are following incorect (seems wierd using this arguement ... usualy Religions use this when a fundie acts up lol)

These explanations for natural phenomenon where given my the "wise men" of their respective culture. People had questions and some creative opportunists provided the answer.

Science fills this role today, people have questions so instead of going to the Skald or Poet they go to Scientists who in turn give a equally creative answer. Don't be so quick to assume progress has actually been made here. People are still just as willing to blindly believe anything that comes from the "expert" on the matter. >.>

Nice try, you were going for an 'educated man' thing there, right? If you are talking about my people then No they did not go to the Skáld if they had a question thy went to the priests or 'Prestar' and to the Skáld to listen to storys.

Religion as an organization is a social construction ... there are many different forms , the changing or loss of one does not mean we loose what we are , rather may mean we are seeing social evolution

So is Law, something that has an extraordinary amount of similarity with Religion, should that too be abandoned for "social evolution?"

Mesurable as a benifit ... but again amount of benifit does not prove the conclusion, it does not follow directly and too many variables between here and there
The amount is not important, "proof" even less so; what is important is the meaning.

The meaningful benefit is gained from having "something out there that is bigger than all of us."

These explanations for natural phenomenon where given my the "wise men" of their respective culture. People had questions and some creative opportunists provided the answer.

Science fills this role today, people have questions so instead of going to the Skald or Poet they go to Scientists who in turn give a equally creative answer. Don't be so quick to assume progress has actually been made here. People are still just as willing to blindly believe anything that comes from the "expert" on the matter. >.>

I didn't say modern science was perfect... But progress is being made. At least we can rule out a few things, such as the devil being underground and the gods hiding out on mountaintops. And there haven't been any Thor sightings in years.

I want an answer, Braddammit!
We would not unless we had a comparison ... to us we would be the most important thing unless we had something to weigh ourselfs against

But even if we had something to comare against (other beings or just the universe at a whole) being insignifican does not limit our ability to contemplate that insignificance

I want an answer, Braddammit!


we see death all the time, in every species out there.

look at an archeological dig sometime.

you're looking at things that are billions of years old.

someday, your remains will be that old, turning to oil underneath an ocean somewhere.

you have to me incredibly narcisistic if you think you mean anything.

Nice try, you were going for an 'educated man' thing there, right? If you are talking about my people then No they did not go to the Skáld if they had a question thy went to the priests or 'Prestar' and to the Skáld to listen to storys.

Tæknilega séð hlýtur það að hafa verið skáld sem skrifaði gylfaginningu og völuspá.

Dont confuse scientist with science ... one is a process ... the other is a person

Yes a lot of people put a lot of stock in scientists, but in that case they are not following the scientific method they only think they are

Just because people follow it incorrectly does not make what they are following incorect (seems wierd using this arguement ... usualy Religions use this when a fundie acts up lol)

Precisely! Very good sir, you have just discovered common ground with your enemy without being in a fit of seething, passionate, rage. Bravo sir! (No sarcasm at all intended.)

And in the 60's he was a soda. And his hammer is a football club...
Well you people have no real sence of respect to the old God's of my people, then again why should you.
You people used it for commercial reasons because it sounded so COOOOL, right?

The amount is not important, "proof" even less so; what is important is the meaning.

The meaningful benefit is gained from having "something out there that is bigger than all of us."
Has had in the past ... we can reflect on that ... but right now your guess is as good as mine

And benifit in a belief ... as a social organization benifit does not prove the focus even exists ... rather just proves that the construct has worked

Well you people have no real sence of respect to the old God's of my people, then again why should you.
You people used it for commercial reasons because it sounded so COOOOL, right?
I have no respect for any god ... because I am not sure any exist ... I cant really respect something unless I know it exists

I can respect that YOU believe it sure but not the gods of your people no

Well you people have no real sence of respect to the old God's of my people, then again why should you.
You people used it for commercial reasons because it sounded so COOOOL, right?

Ekki "you people" :)
Ég var reyndar bara að tala um íþróttafélagið þórshamar og gosdrykkinn þór. Allt íslensk framleiðsla.

Precisely! Very good sir, you have just discovered common ground with your enemy without being in a fit of seething, passionate, rage. Bravo sir! (No sarcasm at all intended.)
I usualy can ... I am agnostic ... I question ALL sides
Lol I only get passionate when people dont try to expand their minds one way or another

we see death all the time, in every species out there.
...and we've given death significance.

look at an archeological dig sometime.

you're looking at things that are billions of years old.
...and we give the past significance.

someday, your remains will be that old, turning to oil underneath an ocean somewhere.

you have to me incredibly narcisistic if you think you mean anything.
...and we give ourselves significance.

Significance is meaning. Significance derives from being conscious.

I usualy can ... I am agnostic ... I question ALL sides
Lol I only get passionate when people dont try to expand their minds one way or another
All I did was rule out a few gods...

Tæknilega séð hlýtur það að hafa verið skáld sem skrifaði gylfaginningu og völuspá.
Um hvað ertu að tala? Tæknilega séð havð? Auðvitað voru það skáld sem skrifuðu bækur og ljóð. Það sem þú varst að segja á ensku var það að menn fóru til skáld til að fá upplýsingar um heiminn, heimsspeki o.s.frv. sem er bara ekki rétt því að í gamla daga voru prestar eina menntaða fólkið í landinu.

Precisely! Very good sir, you have just discovered common ground with your enemy without being in a fit of seething, passionate, rage. Bravo sir! (No sarcasm at all intended.)
No kind of "enemy" then. ;)

Ekki "you people" :)
Ég var reyndar bara að tala um íþróttafélagið þórshamar og gosdrykkinn þór. Allt íslensk framleiðsla.
Já ég veit bara að fíflast aðeins.
Hvaðan af landinu ertu?

Has had in the past ... we can reflect on that ... but right now your guess is as good as mine

And benifit in a belief ... as a social organization benifit does not prove the focus even exists ... rather just proves that the construct has worked
..and yet, I love that you give me the benefit of the doubt, especially on a night like tonight. ;)

There is nothing remarkable about your brain when it somes to the ability to die.

The brain is the most remarkable part of the human body. It is the home of the human mind. It is who we are up until the point we die and even then we can imprint it upon other people, on paper, in stone. Yes I believe when we die we are no more, but our mind lives on as long as it is remebered. No, it is not electrical signals jumping from nerve to nerve any longer, but words are a good as substitute as any.

Our bodies may be mortal but our minds are who we are, something that will remain forever....

EDIT: This does not mean I believe in some afterlife where I get to play poker with god or anything. I don't have a religion, and don't see a personal need for religion. If believing in an afterlife makes others sleep better at night, hoots for them, I sleep fine knowing I'll die because in some way or another I'll live on. That could be writing a book, it could be having kids, who know, thats for time to tell. Besides I know death is inevitable so why worry about it? I'd much rather have fun now then regret not having any.

..and yet, I love that you give me the benefit of the doubt, especially on a night like tonight. ;)
Least I can do ... think anyone else is following us on this? LOL

...and we've given death significance.


...and we give the past significance.


...and we give ourselves significance.

Significance is meaning. Significance derives from being conscious.


we give them significance because we don't like being insignificant.

some day, the human race will die off.

the sun will either go supernova or brown dwarf, and all life on earth will end.

if we manage to get off the planet before we all die on earth, we still have nothing to look forward to but the end of existance, when the universe collapses in upon itself in a sort of Uber black hole, until it reaches Critical density to the point where all that matter fusing in upon itself is enough to jump start another Big Bang.


people don't like the thought of that happening, so they comfort themselves with the false notion that they can somehow get around it.

in the long run, none of the toys we play with will matter. no countries will make war or peace, and no preacher will stand on any pulpits.

face it: you're nothing.



I love putting things into perspective.

Já ég veit bara að fíflast aðeins.
Hvaðan af landinu ertu?

Reykjavíkinni. Ég held að við höfum hist áður. Ég stoppaði stutt við hérna fyrir nokkrum mánuðum.

we give them significance because we don't like being insignificant.

some day, the human race will die off.

the sun will either go supernova or brown dwarf, and all life on earth will end.

if we manage to get off the planet before we all die on earth, we still have nothing to look forward to but the end of existance, when the universe collapses in upon itself in a sort of Uber black hole, until it reaches Critical density to the point where all that matter fusing in upon itself is enough to jump start another Big Bang.


people don't like the thought of that happening, so they comfort themselves with the false notion that they can somehow get around it.

in the long run, none of the toys we play with will matter. no countries will make war or peace, and no preacher will stand on any pulpits.

face it: you're nothing.

I love putting things into perspective.
Things have meaning because we give them meaning. Same for significance.

That the human race may die off someday does not negate any meaning/significance it has right now, at this moment in time.

Consciousness exists now, in the present.

Things have meaning because we give them meaning. Same for significance.

That the human race may die off someday does not negate any meaning/significance it has right now, at this moment in time.

Consciousness exists now, in the present.

But significance is subjective ... hence why everyone is more significant then everyone else to themselfs ... and family above strangers and so on and so forth

Or are you looking for objective significance? a ranking perhaps?

But significance is subjective ... hence why everyone is more significant then everyone else to themselfs ... and family above strangers and so on and so forth

Or are you looking for objective significance? a ranking perhaps?
Absolutely 100-percent-amundo subjective view.

The human race is significant, because it is conscious and hence self-aware. There is no getting around that fact.

Or are you looking for objective significance? a ranking perhaps?


that's why they invented god.

giving yourself significance is like giving yourself a five dollar bill.

Absolutely 100-percent-amundo subjective.

The human race is significant, because it is conscious and hence self-aware. There is no getting around that fact.
But because we give ourselfs significant does that make us objectivly significant ?
or would some other life that does not hold us significant nagate that to a minimum?

Originally Posted by Dementedus_Yammus
we give them significance because we don't like being insignificant.

some day, the human race will die off.

the sun will either go supernova or brown dwarf, and all life on earth will end.

if we manage to get off the planet before we all die on earth, we still have nothing to look forward to but the end of existance, when the universe collapses in upon itself in a sort of Uber black hole, until it reaches Critical density to the point where all that matter fusing in upon itself is enough to jump start another Big Bang.


people don't like the thought of that happening, so they comfort themselves with the false notion that they can somehow get around it.

in the long run, none of the toys we play with will matter. no countries will make war or peace, and no preacher will stand on any pulpits.

face it: you're nothing.

I love putting things into perspective.
ehh, there's not a lot of proof for the end of the universe being in a black hole big crunch thing (aka a "closed" universe), seeing as how, unless there's nine times as much invisible matter (dark matter- its not some special "magic" matter, just invisible in forms of dust, gas etc) as there is visible matter, the universe will continue to fly apart until it's too far apart for gravity to sdo anything, the stuff will disperse, and bad stuff will happen ("open" universe).

I've done research.

But good point though.

that's why they invented god.

giving yourself significance is like giving yourself a five dollar bill.
The objectification of the god is a later development.

that's why they invented god.

giving yourself significance is like giving yourself a five dollar bill.
True ... but the advent of god could be something to give one group MORE significance over another rather then humans as a whole maybe

Absolutely 100-percent-amundo subjective.

The human race is significant, because it is conscious and hence self-aware. There is no getting around that fact.


you're fooling yourself.


significance is nothing if it does not count for something in the long run.

you can award yourself all the medals you want, but that doesn't make you a decorated general. you have to get that kind of award from a higher authority.

since some people are determined to get that award, they invent a god to give it to them.

sorry, but that's like trying to fly by pulling at your shoelaces.

This thread was originally about whether the physical death of the body is the end. It sort of seems like if one believes it is not, then those who believe it is immediately leap into a discussion of religion and why they don't believe in it.

I do not believe that I will "end" when this body dies. That belief does not in any way imply that I am desperate to believe I am anything but insignificant. I do not believe I am ultimately significant, but that has nothing to do with my belief that there is more to my consciousness than its present vessel. I am also not religious in any way.

It may very well be that a consciousness goes from one realm of experience to another, from one life to the next or one form of existence to another form, and maybe there is no heaven and the journey is endless, or maybe there is, it is unknowable so this argument is moot.

And I do believe that the content of this life is largely meaningless and insignificant, which I find extraordinarily liberating and perfectly in keeping with my belief that we just go on experiencing.

But because we give ourselfs significant does that make us objectivly significant ?
or would some other life that does not hold us significant nagate that to a minimum?
What other life-forms think of us does not define our significance.

That hits the nail on the head. I mean really in 20000 odd years who really gives a F#$k. Kinda shoots down my theory....

ehh, there's not a lot of proof for the end of the universe being in a black hole big crunch thing (aka a "closed" universe), seeing as how, unless there's nine times as much invisible matter (dark matter- its not some special "magic" matter, just invisible in forms of dust, gas etc) as there is visible matter, the universe will continue to fly apart until it's too far apart for gravity to sdo anything, the stuff will disperse, and bad stuff will happen ("open" universe).

I've done research.

But good point though.


same difference.

whether the universe is heavy enough to recycle itself, or if it is just going to dissapate for eternity, our lives don't count for anything in the long run.

Forget all theories, we're all going to find out how it really is one day *snicker*

The objectification of the god is a later development.
Maybe the objetification of god had the added benifit of solidifying significance ... trying to objectify it

if we think something that SHOULD be the most significant being in the universe holds US to be significant (in the christian world the MOST significant) then would that by relation not make us objectivily significant (well at least maybe that is part what they were hoping for)

[edit: in response to akhphasa's long-ish post at the top of this page]

ehh those terms seem religious enough to me... They're unproven, unsuggested (by facts and findings), and rationally opposable.

What other life-forms think of us does not define our significance.
* does not define our SUBJECTIVE significance

that being if there is such a thing as objective significance

you're fooling yourself.

significance is nothing if it does not count for something in the long run.

you can award yourself all the medals you want, but that doesn't make you a decorated general. you have to get that kind of award from a higher authority.

since some people are determined to get that award, they invent a god to give it to them.

sorry, but that's like trying to fly by pulling at your shoelaces.
Ah, you're not talking about significance if you compare it to a metal of honour. You're more talking about reward.

willamena, tell me what impact your life will have on people one year after you die.

five years?

fifty?

two hundred?

two thousand?

in fifty million years, is anyone gonna give a damn what you did with your life?

in five trillion years, is anyone even going to be there to be curious about it?


we are insignificant.

Let's be honest. We can all debate about this until the cows come home but the idea of an after life keeps me as well as most people from doing horrible things. An odd statement, I know but if scienist could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that their was no afterlife, I'd probably attempt to kill everyone in a nuclear mushroom because history makes murders immortal.

Other people would get drunk until their liver turned to mush, rape, pillage, ect. more so out of the need to experience pleasure in life rather try to acheive immortality.

Intellectuals like you guys can handle the fact that nothing might exist after death because you have the mental capacity to either achieve immortality in your own way (writing, art) or to just embrass the inevitible.

willamena, tell me what impact your life will have on people one year after you die.

five years?

fifty?

two hundred?

two thousand?

in fifty million years, is anyone gonna give a damn what you did with your life?

in five trillion years, is anyone even going to be there to be curious about it?


we are insignificant.


We are the most significant thing in the world to us ... that gives us significance

I would have thought the idea of one life and no afterlife, a short spark that dissappears and will never be repeated, would make life seem more unique and significant. Our *one* chance of doing anything at all.

Forget all theories, we're all going to find out how it really is one day *snicker*
So nice to see an optimist on these boards. :)

Ah, you're not talking about significance if you compare it to a metal of honour. You're more talking about reward.


i'm saying that calling yourself significant is as useful as giving yourself general's stripes.

nothing you do matters in a trillion years.

in in the perspective of the universe, you are insignificant.

nothing you do will change anything.

Let's be honest. We can all debate about this until the cows come home but the idea of an after life keeps me as well as most people from doing horrible things. An odd statement, I know but if scienist could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that their was no afterlife, I'd probably attempt to kill everyone in a nuclear mushroom because history makes murders immortal.

Other people would get drunk until their liver turned to mush, rape, pillage, ect. more so out of the need to experience pleasure in life rather try to acheive immortality.

Intellectuals like you guys can handle the fact that nothing might exist after death because you have the mental capacity to either achieve immortality in your own way (writing, art) or to just embrass the inevitible.
So you are saying religion is the opiate of the masses essentialy?

i'm saying that calling yourself significant is as useful as giving yourself general's stripes.

nothing you do matters in a trillion years.

in in the perspective of the universe, you are insignificant.

nothing you do will change anything.
But does that mean we are insignificant? if we are the only ones to contemplate our significance would that not make us significant?

it may not make us IMPORTENT but that is a different matter all togeather

We are the most significant thing in the world to us ... that gives us significance


so what happens when we are gone?

in the long run, we are nothing.

we are no more or less than worms and dirt, because in the long run, we're all going to amount to the same thing: nothing

so what happens when we are gone?

in the long run, we are nothing.

we are no more or less than worms and dirt, because in the long run, we're all going to amount to the same thing: nothing
Which has all to do with importance ... there is a subtle difference even though they are sometimes synonyms ... signiciance is subjective
importance is OBjective

Maybe the objetification of god had the added benifit of solidifying significance
Just the opposite. It was done either unwittingly, or deliberately with the intent of underminding god. "The formal religious images of today [in the West] are pre-eminently those of the father god who created heaven and earth through his word, so that he is beyond his creation, not within it." When the stories of god lifted him apart from his creation, we lost all subjective connection with the deity.

God is only truely siginificant for the individual. This I believe.

if we think something that SHOULD be the most significant being in the universe holds US to be significant (in the christian world the MOST significant) then would that by relation not make us objectivily significant (well at least maybe that is part what they were hoping for)
Bingo. This is the reason I cannot subscribe to a god that is self-aware. God is nothing if not natural.

willamena, tell me what impact your life will have on people one year after you die.

five years?

fifty?

two hundred?

two thousand?

in fifty million years, is anyone gonna give a damn what you did with your life?

in five trillion years, is anyone even going to be there to be curious about it?

we are insignificant.
None of that matters. The future does not exist. What matters is what impact I have now, at this very moment in time.

I am significant.

Which has all to do with importance ... there is a subtle difference even though they are sometimes synonyms ... signiciance is subjective
importance is OBjective

fine then, if your definition of 'significance' is 'anything that is called significant' then sure, we are significant.

but your definition of the word is meaningless, because it can be applied to anything.

Just the opposite. It was done either unwittingly, or deliberately with the intent of underminding god. "The formal religious images of today [in the West] are pre-eminently those of the father god who created heaven and earth through his word, so that he is beyond his creation, not within it." When the stories of god lifted him apart from his creation, we lost all subjective connection with the deity.

God is only truely siginificant for the individual. This I believe.


Bingo. This is the reason I cannot subscribe to a god that is self-aware. God is nothing if not natural.
I dont see how it is the oposite ... we created a diety that was MORE significant then ourselves but that does not REMOVE our significance ... maby just an attempt at importance (or objective signifance) through assoiciation

fine then, if your definition of 'significance' is 'anything that is called significant' then sure, we are significant.

but your definition of the word is meaningless, because it can be applied to anything.

Not meaningless just not solid ... it is fluid
Such as morals ... morals are what we define them to be

Anything can be moral or imoral ... does that mean morals are meaningless?

None of that matters. The future does not exist. What matters is what impact I have now, at this very moment in time.

but anything that you affect will disappear eventually, and whatever resulted from that will disappear as well.

also, to say that 'the future does not matter because i'm not a part of it' is incredibly narcisistic.

you would like to think that you will make a difference, but you're lying to yourself because believing otherwise would be unbearable.

I am significant.

keep saying that.

it don't make it true

Anything can be moral or imoral ... does that mean morals are meaningless?


yes.

everything is meaningless.

yes.

everything is meaningless.
Then why do you have a problem with significance being just as meaningless?

Maybe the objetification of god had the added benifit of solidifying significance
I dont see how it is the oposite ... we created a diety that was MORE significant then ourselves but that does not REMOVE our significance ... maby just an attempt at importance (or objective signifance) through assoiciation
The opposite of solidifying; the creation of tribal gods, of father gods, fractured us. Deity was always more significant than us, but once we were a part of that, a part of the whole. Lifting god apart from us, we lifted ourselves away from significance and created an image of the humble servant (which served society, also).

Then why do you have a problem with significance being just as meaningless?


his definition of the word makes the word itself meaningless.

if he wants to use a word that doesn't mean anything, that's fine by me, but he can't hope to convince me of anything if the words he uses have no definition.

The opposite of solidifying; the creation of tribal gods, of father gods, fractured us. Deity was always more significant than us, but once we were a part of that, a part of the whole. Lifting god apart from us, we lifted ourselves away from significance and created an image of the humble servant (which served society, also).
But being humble does not remove significance ... rather more leaning twards not showing our significance

his definition of the word makes the word itself meaningless.

if he wants to use a word that doesn't mean anything, that's fine by me, but he can't hope to convince me of anything if the words he uses have no definition.
It means everything to us individualy but not nessisarly to others

What I find significant is still meaningfull to me

So if you start as nothing, and end as nothing, wouldn't the easiest and most elegant thing be to simply not bother with existing at all? What would be the point of that? Nothing else in nature "pops into existence" and then "pops out of existence", so why should we?

but anything that you affect will disappear eventually, and whatever resulted from that will disappear as well.

also, to say that 'the future does not matter because i'm not a part of it' is incredibly narcisistic.

you would like to think that you will make a difference, but you're lying to yourself because believing otherwise would be unbearable.

keep saying that.

it don't make it true
If I can impact one life here and now, what does it matter that he/she might change their mind someday? or forget? Things change; that is a constant. What happens now is the most significant thing. Look around you. Look at your surroundings. Your consciousness exists now. This is significant.

It's not about the difference we make lasting.

If I can impact one life here and now, what does it matter that he/she might change their mind someday? or forget? Things change; that is a constant. What happens now is the most significant thing. Look around you. Look at your surroundings. Your consciousness exists now. This is significant.

It's not about the difference we make lasting.

Things change : thats a constant ... lol I like that

What significance does permanence have? Everything changes, nothing stays the same.

What would be the point of that?


there has to be one?

If I can impact one life here and now, what does it matter that he/she might change their mind someday? or forget? Things change; that is a constant. What happens now is the most significant thing. Look around you. Look at your surroundings. Your consciousness exists now. This is significant.

It's not about the difference we make lasting.


sorry, but yes it is.

in five generations, you will be utterly insignificant, just due to your argument here. (in bold)

Yes, generally the universe doesn't have random existences springing out of nowhere and then vanishing again. Conservation of energy, and all that.

Yes, generally the universe doesn't have random existences springing out of nowhere and then vanishing again. Conservation of energy, and all that.
Um not sure where you are going with that

You talking about random life forms or random events (multiverse theory says that random "existances" do span off of decisions/events)

And existance in a close cycle is possible ... obviously ... we are here

Yes, generally the universe doesn't have random existences springing out of nowhere and then vanishing again. Conservation of energy, and all that.


what does this have to do with anything?

Sorry if this has been addressed, I'm only on about the second page, but why would we be MORE significant if there's a god? Hobby of some great power, or entity capable of making lasting changes to one's one life.

And yeah, believing in an afterlife is pretty much just a nice little fantasy. "Knowing in your gut" means absolutely nothing at all, unless you can know things in your gut and have them come true on a consistent basis. And if that's the case, you're not an ordinary person, and can I have next week's lotto numbers?

what does this have to do with anything?

Well, if you say we cease to exist after we physically die, the implication is that our present existence just vanishes, and the universe does not work that way.

Well, if you say we cease to exist after we physically die, the implication is that our present existence just vanishes, and the universe does not work that way.
that is ENERGY ... which is still here ... as long as their is not a loss of ENERGY or mass it is fine existance could just be a pattern
Thermodynamics has nothing to do with pattern retention

Well, if you say we cease to exist after we physically die, the implication is that our present existence just vanishes, and the universe does not work that way.


sure, our corpse is there, but our brain stops running current through it, if that's what you're asking.

"Knowing in your gut" means absolutely nothing at all, unless you can know things in your gut and have them come true on a consistent basis.

On the contrary, it is the essence of faith, and while my knowing in my gut may mean absolutely nothing at all to you, it has quite enormous implications for me. I do not expect my gut feeling to impact you in any way, and it means nothing to me whether you believe or not, your belief impacts me not at all.

This debate has gone on for thousands of years and can logically never be won. The subjects we are talking about are by their very nature unprovable and unmeasurable, the only thing you ultimately have to go on is your intuition or your "gut".

I'm not interested in converting anyone. Everyone finds his or her own path in life.

This debate has gone on for thousands of years and can logically never be won. The subjects we are talking about are by their very nature unprovable and unmeasurable, the only thing you ultimately have to go on is your intuition or your "gut".

Can any debate really be won as long as people ethics are not perfectly in line with one another? As long as we have free thought, no debate will ever be won.

sorry, but yes it is.

in five generations, you will be utterly insignificant, just due to your argument here. (in bold)
To others, perhaps, but that's not significant to me.

I am perfectly happy with reviewing dictionary definitions of these terms, if it would aid discussion. Significance: from sign, a mark or gesture which conveys meaning; real or inner meaning; synonymous with importance in the context of meaningfulness to an individual. Importance: from import, to bring in from abroad; the quality of producing a great or lasting effect. As UpwardThrust pointed out, you're talking about importance, not significance.

You are equating "me" with "my brain" and I do not accept that I am my brain. I have a brain, but I am not my brain. You can keep a brain alive for a long time, even though the owner is really dead.

Oh, and I am not a Christian, per se. I don't see that it makes any difference whether one is or is not a Christian, though. My feelings are not at all religious on the subject.
No offense, but the idea you expressed --that you are more than the sum of your physical parts, which introduces a supernatural element to your being --is a religious idea. It may not belong to any specific organized religion, but it is a religious idea (pertaining to a supernatural force that influences your life and way of thinking).

To others, perhaps, but that's not significant to me.

I am perfectly happy with reviewing dictionary definitions of these terms, if it would aid discussion. Significance: from sign, a mark or gesture which conveys meaning; real or inner meaning; synonymous with importance in the context of meaningfulness to an individual. Importance: from import, to bring in from abroad; the quality of producing a great or lasting effect. As UpwardThrust pointed out, you're talking about importance, not significance.
:) good glad I am not making things up in my head again :p

The ancient Romans believed that the goal of life was to be remembered well.

Until they took up Christianity...Killing Christ was good, but that also brought the downfall of them...

Humanity has the capacity to think in a way that cannot be comprehended by other beings. We have abstract ideas and intelligent thought...more to the point, we have the ability to actually create our own personal universes (via our dreams)
Seems to suggest to me that Humanity has transcended the surly bounds of a material universe. Besides, it can't be all-bounding to everything...think of the Matrix. Best analogy I can think of it. We just can't see the other dimension that actually makes up this universe.
Or, in another way, imagine beings that exist two-dimensionaly. They can't see up or down, unlike us...therefore, it does not exist to them.
We objectivley know that there is an up and down, though.
What is to say it is not similar to our universe?

Eternity can be seen in one's fearlessness to depart from this world. I am secure in the Being that made me. Thanks to Him walking among us and taking that which was corrupt and taking it down with Him. That which is now corrupt will be taken down with my own body.

I remember seeing my aunt's body. The first relative that I have seen dead. I couldn't cry, because she didn't look like she was at that particular place anymore. It was just a body. What is a body without life breathing through it? A corpse. If I wasn't an eternal being wouldn't I already be a corpse? Her life was not expressed through that vessel anymore. Just because things cannot be seen beyond a wall doesn't mean there is nothing on the other side.

and when they lynched the savior

ps im not a christian, just making that clear

The execution of Jesus was done legally, and therefore would not qualify as a lynching.

Seeing as Im insignificant, as is the human race, I suggest we begin killing each other. I mean, who really gives a shit if a couple hundred thousand people die? They're fucking insignificant, useless heaps of meaningless trash. Feelings, emotions, humanity - all meaningless... why develop anything? Why better ourselves? Why not lie down and die and drown in self-pity because we're insignificant? Who cares about significance anyway, it's not like it means anything, since everything is useless... any thought, any action, any belief - all are meaningless, all have no use in society. Our purpose is to rot away, free will is an illusion since we really are just waiting to die and fade away...

Until they took up Christianity...Killing Christ was good, but that also brought the downfall of them...

Well, before that they were jolly good fellows. Just ask those 1 millions gauls that Caesar brutally slaughtered or enslaved - they LOVED the romans.