NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050329/ap_on_re_us/boy_scouts_child_porn

DALLAS - A former high-ranking Boy Scouts of America official has been charged with possession and distribution of child pornography. Douglas Sovereign Smith Jr., 61, who as program director coordinated scouting programs with schools and churches, was accused of receiving images over the Internet in February of children engaging in oral sex, intercourse and other sexually explicit conduct.

Now, for the damning evidence. This is from here (http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc&c=mv):

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

A Scout is:
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
Reverent

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;
Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;
Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;
Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program

Well, considering this latest case, we know why they want people clean and obediant.

For those in the Boy Scouts of America who haven't figured it out: Those Catholic priests you heard about awhile back were deviants, not examples. Just because they enjoyed children far too much doesn't mean you should.

For those in the Scouts who have figured the above out and are outraged by this event: Now you know how we Catholics feel. You may take a "I'm part of an organization that has included child molestors and Christian values and now my entire group is going to pay for it" sticker on your way out of the thread. If you wish to attend the official meetings of this club, we require you bring a food item and we meet on Wednesdays in the "I'm Being Held Guilty of Something A Bunch of Idiots In My Group Did" Hall. It's just across from the "Righteous Indignation and Feeling Superior Because of It" Music Theatre.

The Scouting movement is a good thing. (i speak as a former scout leader)

However it was started by Bayden-Powell who was a closet honosexual. he never abused the boys, or (to the best of my knowledge) touched them but he enjoyed seeing them naked and in trunks for swimming.

The catholic church is similar to the scouts. While 90% (well maby 80%) will be genuine people who want to help kids or the church, some will pick the profession or scout-leadership for the availability of young boys.

The UK scouting does through research on all new leaders these days and pays attention to the allegations presented against those accused.

if only the cathholic church did the same. :(

However it was started by Bayden-Powell who was a closet honosexual.
Grr, I wish you would have switched the "o" and "h" around so he would have been an ohnosexual.

if only the cathholic church did the same. :(

They do now, at least in my parish. All employees of the parish (regardless of whether they work with children at all), are required to undergo a background and criminal history check. In addition, new screening procedures are in place for men wishing to become priests or work with children and/or youth groups.

I'm not sure if this is standard procedure throughout the Catholic Church yet, but it should be, and should have been a long time ago, especially considering the amount of sexual deviance in the Church during the Middle Ages.

Interesting point, so if say one chiropracter has kiddie porn photos then we should believe all chiropractors are kiddie porn ring people and the whole business is illegitimate?
Or if one gay man has kiddie porn photos then all gay men love little boys? Hmm, I thought that was a rediculous generalization.
I was a Boy Scout for five years, it was great fun and I got to see and do many things. There was never a hint of molestation or such things in my area but, since this one leader had some pictures I guess everybody in my organization was a kiddie porn person.

Oh, please, like you need things like this to happen to deride the boy scouts. Their discriminatory policies are good enough for that.

So much for "family values"...

"So Child Porn is part of Christian Values?"

Yes.

The title of this thread annoyed me, and the beginning of the first post too... my first reaction was, "WHAT? DemonLordEnigma is posting this?!"

Then I read through to the end. Too true, DLE --

--and let's watch how many people don't bother to read your whole post, totally miss your point, and use this as an opportunity to bash the Church and the Scouts.

He was probably opposed to gay marriage because it violated his "Christian Values"

The Scouting movement is a good thing. (i speak as a former scout leader)

However it was started by Bayden-Powell who was a closet honosexual. he never abused the boys, or (to the best of my knowledge) touched them but he enjoyed seeing them naked and in trunks for swimming.

*SNIP*

Ahh a limey! :p

I am an Eagle Scout and was an assistent Scout Master......

I heard the lore but when/where did they label him?

Also, BP's views on Religion. What were they? Made some claims from my "history" of BP.

I'm a Christian, and Child pornography isn't peticularly appealing to me.

Please, check your generalizations at the door.

"So Child Porn is part of Christian Values?"

Yes.

You must be a popular guy wherever you live. Then again, I guess the anonymity of the internet protects you, as you wouldn't say that sort of thing in a situation where people actually knew you and you would need to defend it.

I don't know if you can say that they're discriminatory. They have a set standard of who they want to let in. If they don't want gays, that is their organization's agenda, not anyone else. By that logic then that means that Colleges should let in people who fail all their classes because otherwise that's discrimination or that Business's should hire people who do no work... Wait, that's right, colleges do discriminate against people who don't meet up to their standards and business's do discriminate against people who don't do work.. But is that wrong? No. I don't believe it is wrong. The Boy Scouts can do whatever they want with their standards as long as they are not physically hurting someone. If they don't let in openly gay people, that's their choice. If they kill or hurt openly gay people, then the government has the right to step in. It's the same thing with the Nazi's in America. I certaintly don't agree with their views, but I will protect their right to say whatever the hell they want.

You must be a popular guy wherever you live. Then again, I guess the anonymity of the internet protects you, as you wouldn't say that sort of thing in a situation where people actually knew you and you would need to defend it.

Actually I have. They usually laugh.

For those in the Boy Scouts of America who haven't figured it out: Those Catholic priests you heard about awhile back were deviants, not examples. Just because they enjoyed children far too much doesn't mean you should.

For those in the Scouts who have figured the above out and are outraged by this event: Now you know how we Catholics feel. You may take a "I'm part of an organization that has included child molestors and Christian values and now my entire group is going to pay for it" sticker on your way out of the thread. If you wish to attend the official meetings of this club, we require you bring a food item and we meet on Wednesdays in the "I'm Being Held Guilty of Something A Bunch of Idiots In My Group Did" Hall. It's just across from the "Righteous Indignation and Feeling Superior Because of It" Music Theatre.

Well I am an Eagle Scout and there is one thing different between the BSA and the Catholic Church.

They took action and removed him once he was discovered. The Chruch activily hid these animals by moving them to other Churchs and even other countries.

Now don't label me as a ardent supportor of the main council. They have gone far more conservative Christian in their views since my days in Scouting.....

Actually I have. They usually laugh.

Actually, yeah, I could see that :)

Actually I have. They usually laugh.


Please enlighten me to my apparent christian pediophilia (sp?).

Speaking as a former scout and an assistant scoutmaster, I'm not really surprised that sometimes, some freaks get close to what they desire, hiding who they really are.

Well I am an Eagle Scout and there is one thing different between the BSA and the Catholic Church.

They took action and removed him once he was discovered. The Chruch activily hid these animals by moving them to other Churchs and even other countries.

Now don't label me as a ardent supportor of the main council. They have gone far more conservative Christian in their views since my days in Scouting.....

Yeah, thats a big difference. The second major difference is that this person wasnt accused of molesting anyone, he was only accused of downloading some images on his computer.

Oh, please, like you need things like this to happen to deride the boy scouts. Their discriminatory policies are good enough for that.

Ok. Let's hear about their policies....

Ok. Let's hear about their policies....

Hes probably bitching about their dont ask dont tell policy.

Please enlighten me to my apparent christian pediophilia (sp?).

Calm down dude. I'm just joking. :cool:

You're probably more into decaying dead bodies than children arent you? That's the good stuff. :D

I heard the lore but when/where did they label him?

His biography. They didnt label him as such because he never acted on his impulses, but he was a closet homosexual who enjoyed young youths (i'm loathed to say boys because nothing points to him being a paedophile). try amazon for a biography.

His views on religion i dont recall, i dont have the book any more and it was years aho i read it.

His biography. They didnt label him as such because he never acted on his impulses, but he was a closet homosexual who enjoyed young youths (i'm loathed to say boys because nothing points to him being a paedophile). try amazon for a biography.

His views on religion i dont recall, i dont have the book any more and it was years aho i read it.


Thank you! I will check for a book.....

His biography. They didnt label him as such because he never acted on his impulses, but he was a closet homosexual who enjoyed young youths (i'm loathed to say boys because nothing points to him being a paedophile). try amazon for a biography.

His views on religion i dont recall, i dont have the book any more and it was years aho i read it.

It is speculation. It is likely to be true, but still just speculation. You cant just pretend that since its likely it must be true.

I don't know if you can say that they're discriminatory. They have a set standard of who they want to let in. If they don't want gays, that is their organization's agenda, not anyone else. By that logic then that means that Colleges should let in people who fail all their classes because otherwise that's discrimination or that Business's should hire people who do no work... Wait, that's right, colleges do discriminate against people who don't meet up to their standards and business's do discriminate against people who don't do work.. But is that wrong? No. I don't believe it is wrong. The Boy Scouts can do whatever they want with their standards as long as they are not physically hurting someone. If they don't let in openly gay people, that's their choice. If they kill or hurt openly gay people, then the government has the right to step in. It's the same thing with the Nazi's in America. I certaintly don't agree with their views, but I will protect their right to say whatever the hell they want.

You are absolutely right, except for one thing - they want to get government money. Now, if you want government money, you follow the *government's* rules, which include equal opportunity employment.

Now, if the Boy Scouts would like to forego trying for any government money, they can discriminate all the want - you're right.

Thank you! I will check for a book.....

Ok Amazon didn't have much but abebooks showed

The Chief: The Life Story of Robert Baden-Powell
B-P (Robert Stephenson Smyth Baden-Powell) The Story of His Life

Sound familiar?

Thanks!

You are absolutely right, except for one thing - they want to get government money. Now, if you want government money, you follow the *government's* rules, which include equal opportunity employment.

Now, if the Boy Scouts would like to forego trying for any government money, they can discriminate all the want - you're right.

Well that's a tough one for me. I remember Edwards Airforce Base allowing us to use the old U2 Barracks and the mess hall. Not too many people can claim that so it was an experience.

Now discriminating against gays; I am against. We didn't. Either our leaders ignored the main councel or it's a new thing.

Atheists? Well they don't hide the law and the oath so I understand that.

Pagens? You know I really don't know of too many pagen children.

It's a pity that for the actions of a few, they punish the whole.

I would say my time in the troop made me a better person.

Well that's a tough one for me. I remember Edwards Airforce Base allowing us to use the old U2 Barracks and the mess hall. Not too many people can claim that so it was an experience.

Now discriminating against gays; I am against. We didn't. Either our leaders ignored the main councel or it's a new thing.

Atheists? Well they don't hide the law and the oath so I understand that.

Pagens? You know I really don't know of too many pagen children.

It's a pity that for the actions of a few, they punish the whole.

I would say my time in the troop made me a better person.
When it comes down to it, real policy is up to the troop, including discrimination. But that might have been a different experience for me since my troop is quite isolated.

Well that's a tough one for me. I remember Edwards Airforce Base allowing us to use the old U2 Barracks and the mess hall. Not too many people can claim that so it was an experience.

Now discriminating against gays; I am against. We didn't. Either our leaders ignored the main councel or it's a new thing.

Atheists? Well they don't hide the law and the oath so I understand that.

Pagens? You know I really don't know of too many pagen children.

It's a pity that for the actions of a few, they punish the whole.

I would say my time in the troop made me a better person.

I think the Boy Scouts as a whole is a wonderful program that does a lot for a lot of boys/young men/men. And the majority of scouts I have known have felt somewhat as you do.

However, the fact remains that the Boy Scouts as an organization does not hire homosexuals/allow them to be scoutmasters, etc., even if they have been scouts all their lives (I'm sure that many, many individual chapters bend these rules). As such, they are not entitled to government subsidy in any way.

When it comes down to it, real policy is up to the troop, including discrimination. But that might have been a different experience for me since my troop is quite isolated.

Usually, but lately the BSA has gone after troops for that. A year or so ago there was a case (I think in Colorado) of a gay scoutmaster. They fired him. Never mind the fact that the families knew he was gay and were ok with him running the troop. Many comments said he was a great leader.

However, the old tossers on the main council basically declared him a divient and said he had to go. That troop subsequently died as the families pulled their kids.

They also said no gays in the headquarters.

They are eating Crow since they found this good Christian man with kiddy porn!

I think the Boy Scouts as a whole is a wonderful program that does a lot for a lot of boys/young men/men. And the majority of scouts I have known have felt somewhat as you do.

However, the fact remains that the Boy Scouts as an organization does not hire homosexuals/allow them to be scoutmasters, etc., even if they have been scouts all their lives (I'm sure that many, many individual chapters bend these rules). As such, they are not entitled to government subsidy in any way.

Yup. I remember a case awhile back. The families knew the scoutmaster was a homosexual and where ok with it. Yet, he had to go.

It's not the group I remember......

Usually, but lately the BSA has gone after troops for that. A year or so ago there was a case (I think in Colorado) of a gay scoutmaster. They fired him. Never mind the fact that the families knew he was gay and were ok with him running the troop. Many comments said he was a great leader.

However, the old tossers on the main council basically declared him a divient and said he had to go. That troop subsequently died as the families pulled their kids.

They also said no gays in the headquarters.

They are eating Crow since they found this good Christian man with kiddy porn!
I guess the Berlin troop has a geographical advantage then. There's a good reason why we were called "the Outpost of Freedom".

I'm amazed at how much intelligent discussion this has generated. Please keep it up, as I'm following with interest.

My main problem with Boy Scouts is that they get to do all the COOL stuff, like ropes and knives and outdoors, while the Girl Scouts get to sell cookies.


I wanted to be a Boy Scout. I was babysat by a friend's mom who was a... cub scout leader of some kind, so I got to sit in on meetings about soapbox derbys and go-cart races. I was all, I wanna join!

DISCRIMINATION!

My main problem with Boy Scouts is that they get to do all the COOL stuff, like ropes and knives and outdoors, while the Girl Scouts get to sell cookies.


I wanted to be a Boy Scout. I was babysat by a friend's mom who was a... cub scout leader of some kind, so I got to sit in on meetings about soapbox derbys and go-cart races. I was all, I wanna join!

DISCRIMINATION!
Sounds like a problem with the Girl Scouts, not the Boy Scouts. Is it true that they don't let you wear hiking boots when you go camping because it messes up the trail?

Sounds like a problem with the Girl Scouts, not the Boy Scouts. Is it true that they don't let you wear hiking boots when you go camping because it messes up the trail?

Depends on the troops I guess.

My wife is a gold scout and she did all that. Though they did have some wanky badges like homemaking. ;)

The Boy Scouts are about learning the generic values of manhood, not alternative lifestyles. Personally, I would have absolutely no problem with any homosexual being a scout leader if they set out to uphold these values. There is a marked difference between being openly gay and overbearingly gay. If they make being gay an issue of discussion with these boys then I would be dissapointed. That is not their role as a scout leader. This individual is not the parent of my children and not authorized by me to discuss so intimate of a subject. I am not afraid my son will turn gay. I would just like to know who is filling my children's head with stuff; be it the news, music, etc. Do I want to control it? At that young of an age I certainly would like to shield it from the occasion yahoo (I am speaking in general here.)

Ahh a limey! :p

I am an Eagle Scout and was an assistent Scout Master......

I heard the lore but when/where did they label him?

http://www.glgarden.org/ocg/archive1/brits.html

It's just across from the "Righteous Indignation and Feeling Superior Because of It" Music Theatre.

Hey, what do ya know! I'm musical director there. We're having a Mostly Mozart session next weekend.

The BSA does not allow homosexuals or criminals to be scout leaders.
The degree of closeness to which a potential sex offender could get to a Boy Scout is phenominally high. You're talking about an organisation where often there are two adults, four kids, a few tents, and a thousand acres of wilderness for miles around, for several days. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

They do not allow two religious groups, technically (though the only cases where it becomes very apparent is at the Eagle Scout level).
1: Athiests. Every meeting, a scout affirms that he is reverent, and he swears, "On my honor...I will do my duty to God...".
2: Jehovas Witnesses. They do not salute the flag.

They do not allow girls. Refer to my first paragraph.

The BSA is a private non-proffit organisation. It recieves no government subsidies, so it can do whatever it damn well pleases so long as it is legal. Most troops fund themselves independantly, relying on donations and on sales of services and goods.

Dumb troll thread.

And the BSA is a Methodist organization. Read the damn pamphlets.

Dumb troll thread.

And the BSA is a Methodist organization. Read the damn pamphlets.

Thanks for managing to not even read the entirety of the first post before spouting off at the mouth without knowing entirely what you are talking about. If you are not going to read far enough to get the point, don't troll the thread.

The BSA does not allow homosexuals or criminals to be scout leaders.
The degree of closeness to which a potential sex offender could get to a Boy Scout is phenominally high. You're talking about an organisation where often there are two adults, four kids, a few tents, and a thousand acres of wilderness for miles around, for several days. It's a disaster waiting to happen.


Pedophile != homosexual.

Not all troops follow the rules of the main council.


The BSA is a private non-proffit organisation. It recieves no government subsidies, so it can do whatever it damn well pleases so long as it is legal. Most troops fund themselves independantly, relying on donations and on sales of services and goods.

Yes the do receive subsidies. Goverment facilities(ie Military bases) allow them free access and sometimes free food. That is being denied more and more.....

Dumb troll thread.

And the BSA is a Methodist organization. Read the damn pamphlets.

Oh shove it...

I hate it when people stereotype the BSA (which I am a member of) as an outright Christian organization. We've acceped any and all religions and denominations, as long as they believe in a higher power.

Even that is going to change soon I think.

As for the issue at hand...I am deeply disturbed...Obviously this is the case of a man who slipped through the cracks. He will be dealt with accordingly I hope.

And what's today's lesson boys and girls?

If you ban openly gay men from becoming scoutmasters, it just means you have the stealth pedophiles signing up.

:D

Thanks for managing to not even read the entirety of the first post before spouting off at the mouth without knowing entirely what you are talking about. If you are not going to read far enough to get the point, don't troll the thread.

You're right, I was too pissed off to finish reading the post.
But what kind of idiot makes a satire as the first post in a thread besides someone looking for attention? The subject was never brought up before, there was no point in addressing it in such a manner in the first place.

The Methodist comment was to clue people in on the background of the BSA, seeing as how they kept on missing it.

***

I'm sorry. I retract my statement and accept your accusations.

Yes the do receive subsidies. Goverment facilities(ie Military bases) allow them free access and sometimes free food. That is being denied more and more.....

There was even more than that for a while, but I think the ACLU suit stopped all that.

Oh shove it...

I hate it when people stereotype the BSA (which I am a member of) as an outright Christian organization. We've acceped any and all religions and denominations, as long as they believe in a higher power.

Even that is going to change soon I think.


I'm well aware of it. I was a member of it too, and the most ostentatious holiday celebration we had was for Kwanza --- not that that's even a [religious] holiday.

In any event, I'm just saying that its foundation was Methodist, which is in the damn pamphlets.

In any event, I'm just saying that its foundation was Methodist, which is in the damn pamphlets.

Okay comrade, where can I find some of these damned pamphlets? Sounds like an interesting read.

Oh, please, like you need things like this to happen to deride the boy scouts. Their discriminatory policies are good enough for that.
Are you talking about the no gay thing? I personally don't see why people are so mad about that. Why do you think they don't let girls in boy scouts? They don't want there to be any sexual acts on the camps. In the close quarters and interesting situations that scouts find themselves in, I really don't think most guys would feel comfortable having a gay guy there.

Are you talking about the no gay thing? I personally don't see why people are so mad about that. Why do you think they don't let girls in boy scouts? They don't want there to be any sexual acts on the camps. In the close quarters and interesting situations that scouts find themselves in, I really don't think most guys would feel comfortable having a gay guy there.

Funny, all the scouts I have known are just fine having gay guys around. *shrug*

You're right, I was too pissed off to finish reading the post.
But what kind of idiot makes a satire as the first post in a thread besides someone looking for attention? The subject was never brought up before, there was no point in addressing it in such a manner in the first place.

I intended much of it to be sarcasm and satire so as to poke fun at those who will hold the entire group responsible for what one man did. I do it mainly to make a point about something.

The Methodist comment was to clue people in on the background of the BSA, seeing as how they kept on missing it.

***

A lot of organizations were started by one group and evolved into another. Hell, the Founding Fathers never thought their insistance on freedom of religion would someday include the Church of Satan.

I'm sorry. I retract my statement and accept your accusations.

No need to say "I'm sorry." All you did was react to what you saw without reading the fullness of it, and in the end no one was actually hurt by it. Hell, I was more amused than anything else.

Okay comrade, where can I find some of these damned pamphlets? Sounds like an interesting read.

The pamphlets that say: "[whoever started the scouts] started the scouts as a Methodist organization to get young boy in his town to work together, help the community at large, and promote wholesome [Christian] values. In [some old year] he finally established the [some other name], which is now called the Boy Scouts of America, or the BSA."

Sorry, I didn't know you cared that much.

No need to say "I'm sorry." All you did was react to what you saw without reading the fullness of it, and in the end no one was actually hurt by it. Hell, I was more amused than anything else.

Aye, and I may have overreacted a tad.

My main problem with Boy Scouts is that they get to do all the COOL stuff, like ropes and knives and outdoors, while the Girl Scouts get to sell cookies.


I wanted to be a Boy Scout. I was babysat by a friend's mom who was a... cub scout leader of some kind, so I got to sit in on meetings about soapbox derbys and go-cart races. I was all, I wanna join!

DISCRIMINATION!
Are you talking about the no gay thing? I personally don't see why people are so mad about that. Why do you think they don't let girls in boy scouts? They don't want there to be any sexual acts on the camps. In the close quarters and interesting situations that scouts find themselves in, I really don't think most guys would feel comfortable having a gay guy there.
They have Venturing Scouts which allows both men and women.

I'm an active scout (I have been since I was 5) and am Senior Patrol Leader of my troop, which is the highest boy position. So if you have any questions on scouting, I'm right here.

They have Venturing Scouts which allows both men and women.

I'm an active scout (I have been since I was 5) and am Senior Patrol Leader of my troop, which is the highest boy position. So if you have any questions on scouting, I'm right here.

Are you afraid of "teh gays"?

Are you afraid of "teh gays"?
As long as they aren't coming on to me they don't scare me :p

Funny, all the scouts I have known are just fine having gay guys around. *shrug*
1. Have you ever been a scout? If not, shut up.
2. How many scouts do you know? If less then 2, revert to #1.

Anyway if you let gays into boy scouts, why not let girls?

1. Have you ever been a scout? If not, shut up.
2. How many scouts do you know? If less then 2, revert to #1.

Anyway if you let gays into boy scouts, why not let girls?

Is the purpose of scouts to instill a sexual orientation?

If you really think the only reason that there are separate boy and girl scout groups is so they won't have sex, I wonder at your own control over your lusts.

Is the purpose of scouts to instill a sexual orientation?

If you really think the only reason that there are separate boy and girl scout groups is so they won't have sex, I wonder at your own control over your lusts.
Have you ever been a Boy Scout? That is one of if not the major reason for seperating them, half the people who join Venture do it for the sex.

Why do you think they don't let girls in boy scouts? They don't want there to be any sexual acts on the camps.
Ah ha ha ha!
No sexual acts in the camps? Yeah that worked out great :rolleyes:

It doesn't take gays for sex to occur. It takes large groups of teenaged boys put together in an environment with little privacy. And FYI I was in scouting from tiger cubs till I turned 18.

Have you ever been a Boy Scout? That is one of if not the major reason for seperating them, half the people who join Venture do it for the sex.

The reason they are separated is the fact that society has defined gender roles for males and females - regardless of sexuality.

No, I have not been a Boy Scout, by the way, but I was a Brownie.

I was a Boy Scout in the 1970s, and when the time came, I forced my boys to pick an activity to be involved with.... Scouting and athletics were among the choices. One picked Football, the other picked Demolay.

But I got a lot of out of Scouting, including some great camping trips, some adventures I never will forget, and some useful skills.

That said, an incident occured in one of the Scout Troops I was in. A boy a little younger than me at the time (about 13) was molested by one of our assistant Scout Leaders while they were on a trip together (for an Order of the Arrow induction, for those not Scouts, its an honor to get into this). As a result, we lost that kid for good, all of our adult leaders left, and my father took over for a couple of years. I don't know what criminal charges were ever filed, as the boy moved away soon after the incident, and we kids weren't given much information on it (it was a big secret I learned about later on).

It was a different time.

Boys being molested by Men is not a new thing is basically my point, and its not new to Scouting. I suspect the main reason Scouting has been leery about allowing homosexual Adult males from being leaders is to reduce the civil liability issue somewhat. Fair or not, a perception exists that a jury will simply assume the Scouts wouldn't be taking measures indicative of due diligence if it let Gays be leaders.

The Boy Scouts is not really a Christian organization. Several troops I knew off when I was a boy were sponsered by Jewish Synogogues for example, and Scouting was big at the time in Israel.

It is however an organization that emphasizes Faith. But so does Demolay, and so does other organizations.

Shame on the bastards who abuse the trust of the boys they are supposed to be leading and menitoring that way. But these predators show up as youth coachs, teachers, and a lot of other positions of trust.

by the way, back then we joined Coed Explorer Posts when we were old enough, co ed camping was a LOT better than not ..... both sexes learned a lot about nature for one thing.

sorry, can't help it, "explorer post 69"


okay, now I have that out of my system, I have been a member of the boy scouts for the past ten years. I am quite confident that there are no gays in my troop, they all joined the other, wussy troops led by some kid's mommy.

it's a navy town so you can kind of imagine the sort of people we tend to get as volenteers, yep, that's right, teh Marines.

if there is any organisation whose members tend more towards insanel competitiveness, I don't want to go near them, but I did learn to speak a bit of Neanderthal.
my appologies to any member of the USMC who takes offense at the above. but you do have to admit Marines are different.

sorry, can't help it, "explorer post 69"


okay, now I have that out of my system, I have been a member of the boy scouts for the past ten years. I am quite confident that there are no gays in my troop, they all joined the other, wussy troops led by some kid's mommy.

it's a navy town so you can kind of imagine the sort of people we tend to get as volenteers, yep, that's right, teh Marines.

if there is any organisation whose members tend more towards insanel competitiveness, I don't want to go near them, but I did learn to speak a bit of Neanderthal.
my appologies to any member of the USMC who takes offense at the above. but you do have to admit Marines are different.
Ooooo condolences. Ouch.
I know what you mean, I remeber the troops that always marched in line with perfect uniforms and were constantly being disciplined. Our troop was more of a "Arrive in a loose cluster" type. Hell, I didn't even have a uniform the last couple years.

my appologies to any member of the USMC who takes offense at the above. but you do have to admit Marines are different.

I've personally never met an ex-Marine without a drug or alcohol problem.


The poster of this topic really struck a nerve with me. "Child Porn is part of Christian Values?" The obvious answer is no. Everybody knows that. This man was just an immoral person. His actions do not represent that of a Christian or a boy scout. He is simply a hypocrite.

Why must we Christians defend ourselves when one person does something wrong or immoral? The way we are always on the ropes you'd think we are avid supporters of incest and cannibalism (and other immoral activities).

Everything I've learned from the church teaches me to be a moral person. So why does one bad apple ruin it for all of us?

this is a deviation and has been such from the beginning of mankind... it depends also on cultures. For instance, in Africa, girls are sexually mature starting 12 and they marry at 12-13. In the gipsy community, also, they get married at 11-13. So it is impossible to put a stamp on it. It is a matter of local law. You can not force Africans to wait till 18 to get married, nor to let an European or American to marry at 12.

Well I am an Eagle Scout and there is one thing different between the BSA and the Catholic Church.

They took action and removed him once he was discovered. The Chruch activily hid these animals by moving them to other Churchs and even other countries.

Now don't label me as a ardent supportor of the main council. They have gone far more conservative Christian in their views since my days in Scouting.....
Very true ... now the rest of the congrigation knows why our priest "went away" because of a "nervous breakdown" from handeling such a "large congregation" (I knew why before hand but that is a different story)

At least thats what thoes of us at the catholic elementry school were told

Want to know an intresting bit of fact ... before that the church had him teach our 4th grade sex ed class

The reason they are separated is the fact that society has defined gender roles for males and females - regardless of sexuality.

No, I have not been a Boy Scout, by the way, but I was a Brownie.
I don't see how seperation has anything to do with gender roles. Boy scouts and girl scouts to pretty much the same things (although cub scouts and brownies are a little different i think). I suppose the biggest difference between the scouts is one sells cookies and the other sells wreaths. Boy scouts may be a bit more intense, but I don't know for sure.

Dempublicents1 i would respect your opinion a little more if you had went past brownie. The lower level scouts (brownie and cub) are alot more sheltered and don't do much. Alot of the camps have bunks, or at least platformed tents with alot of room. Higher scouts have to sleep on the group in real tents squished right next to their fellow troop mates.

And to Philadora, everything i've learned in church is to accept whatever the priest says and follow the bible. Seems pretty stupid advice if ya ask me. I don't think people hate the church because they thing everyone is immoral, I believe they are tired of the stupidity of following it. The church is a tool, it can be used to teach people or used to control them. More often then not the latter happens. Everything works just as well if people believe whatever they want, and it deletes one way to control people.

The poster of this topic really struck a nerve with me. "Child Porn is part of Christian Values?" The obvious answer is no. Everybody knows that. This man was just an immoral person. His actions do not represent that of a Christian or a boy scout. He is simply a hypocrite.

Which is exactly my point.

Why must we Christians defend ourselves when one person does something wrong or immoral? The way we are always on the ropes you'd think we are avid supporters of incest and cannibalism (and other immoral activities).

Because Christianity, due to actions of certain members, has become the bad boy of the world. It is the one that is popular to oppose, and it's not exactly doing the best job of removing itself from the spotlight. In the end, it's so easily targetted because so many of its corrupted members end up becomming famous. It's really hard to support a group when all of the famous people are also the bad apples.

And as for the cannibalism thing: Blame early Christians for that. "The bread is his body, the wine his blood" is what started the idea Christianity teaches cannibalism.

Everything I've learned from the church teaches me to be a moral person. So why does one bad apple ruin it for all of us?

Because most people don't remember the good apples.

I don't see how seperation has anything to do with gender roles. Boy scouts and girl scouts to pretty much the same things (although cub scouts and brownies are a little different i think).

*Now* most troops do teach the same things. That was *not*, however, the case when they were first begun.

Dempublicents1 i would respect your opinion a little more if you had went past brownie. The lower level scouts (brownie and cub) are alot more sheltered and don't do much. Alot of the camps have bunks, or at least platformed tents with alot of room. Higher scouts have to sleep on the group in real tents squished right next to their fellow troop mates.

So? I have gone on camping trips and slept in a group in real tents squished right next to my male friends - some of whom I knew were interested in me. So?

Are you telling met that boy scouts are incapable of tolerance?

*Now* most troops do teach the same things. That was *not*, however, the case when they were first begun.



So? I have gone on camping trips and slept in a group in real tents squished right next to my male friends - some of whom I knew were interested in me. So?

Are you telling met that boy scouts are incapable of tolerance?
I am assuming the camping trips were outside of scouts. Just camping with your friends doesn't have the same issues as camping with an organization such as the scouts. You can do whatever you want on a camping trip, but if the scouts would rather their members not bang each other on the trip, they have every right.

Edit: sorry misread it the first time

I am assuming the camping trips were outside of scouts. Just camping with your friends doesn't have the same issues as camping with an organization such as the scouts. You can do whatever you want on a camping trip, but if the scouts would rather their members not bang each other on the trip, they have every right.

Edit: sorry misread it the first time


You know that if they wanted to fuck, they'd find a way. You just know it. And there's no way to tell.

And yes, someone can get a crush on a really close friend. It's called SELF CONTROL, people. If Boy Scouts can teach morals, they should teach that one, rather than say, "look, you can just kick homosexuals out of your life and not have to deal with it anymore!"

Maybe the Scouts motto should be changed to "Always be prepared - to defend yourself from pedophile Scoutmasters"

I am assuming the camping trips were outside of scouts. Just camping with your friends doesn't have the same issues as camping with an organization such as the scouts. You can do whatever you want on a camping trip, but if the scouts would rather their members not bang each other on the trip, they have every right.

Who said anything about banging? Are you suggesting that homosexual scouts can't be responsible?

You know that if they wanted to fuck, they'd find a way. You just know it. And there's no way to tell.

And yes, someone can get a crush on a really close friend. It's called SELF CONTROL, people. If Boy Scouts can teach morals, they should teach that one, rather than say, "look, you can just kick homosexuals out of your life and not have to deal with it anymore!"
There would be no reason why two straight guys would want to fuck each other. If you aren't gay, you aren't going to get a crush on a same-sex friend. Its a simple as that. There are people with enough self control, but there are plenty that don't have enough. It may be a case of the few ruining it for the rest, but don't blame the boy scouts for that.

The scouts do attract peadophile leaders. As does any other group.

However, before you are aproved as a leader, criminal records are checked and local newspaper libraries are checked for your name (dates from before the time of the sex offenders register but is still done).

As for girls not being allowed to join, most scout leaders dont like it but it is allowed. The 1st Orwell group (in Nacton, Suffolk) accepts girls.

The Scouting movement is a good thing. (i speak as a former scout leader)

However it was started by Bayden-Powell who was a closet honosexual. he never abused the boys, or (to the best of my knowledge) touched them but he enjoyed seeing them naked and in trunks for swimming.


No it didn't start with him. Pedofelia of scouts did not begin with one person, it's just that the first person you choose to anknowledge.

There would be no reason why two straight guys would want to fuck each other. If you aren't gay, you aren't going to get a crush on a same-sex friend. Its a simple as that. There are people with enough self control, but there are plenty that don't have enough. It may be a case of the few ruining it for the rest, but don't blame the boy scouts for that.


Yeah, but all you have to do is stay in the closet and you can get in Boy Scouts.

I would understand them having strict rules that at the first sign of inappropriate behavior, you're out (that would kick out a lot of straight guys, too, a lot of boys are jerks) but banning gays altogether for the actions of a few and/or the prejudices of the straight?

Yeah, but all you have to do is stay in the closet and you can get in Boy Scouts.

I would understand them having strict rules that at the first sign of inappropriate behavior, you're out (that would kick out a lot of straight guys, too, a lot of boys are jerks) but banning gays altogether for the actions of a few and/or the prejudices of the straight?
And if you stay in the closet, then the scouts don't have to worry about anything. If you do anything homosexual you would be comming out of the closet and you are gone. It may not be the most sensative system, but it works. As long as you keep it quiet you don't have any problems.

And if you stay in the closet, then the scouts don't have to worry about anything. If you do anything homosexual you would be comming out of the closet and you are gone. It may not be the most sensative system, but it works. As long as you keep it quiet you don't have any problems.
It's not just 'not the most sensitive system' it's discrimination.

It's not just 'not the most sensitive system' it's discrimination.
Is discrimination always bad? Do you think someone with a felony on their record should have an equal chance at a job? Someone wouldn't hire a felon because they think there is a decent chance they would rob the place, its the same with scouts, they don't want sex and the only ones that would be doing it are homosexuals.

Is discrimination always bad? Do you think someone with a felony on their record should have an equal chance at a job? Someone wouldn't hire a felon because they think there is a decent chance they would rob the place, its the same with scouts, they don't want sex and the only ones that would be doing it are homosexuals.

Unfounded discrimination *is* wrong. If someone has committed a felony, there is a reason to believe they will do it again. If anyone (hetero-, bi-, or homo-sexual) has not attempted to have sex on a scouting trip, there is no reason to believe they will do it now.

Unfounded discrimination *is* wrong. If someone has committed a felony, there is a reason to believe they will do it again. If anyone (hetero-, bi-, or homo-sexual) has not attempted to have sex on a scouting trip, there is no reason to believe they will do it now.
But there is still the potential, just because they haven't done it yet, they still could. It may be only 10% that actually would do anything, but the scouts would rather not deal with it at all.

But there is still the potential, just because they haven't done it yet, they still could. It may be only 10% that actually would do anything, but the scouts would rather not deal with it at all.

In that case, the scouts are stupid bigots - doing something no different than saying "crime is more prevalent among blacks, so we're not going to let them in, because we don't want any scouts stealing anything."

Edit: Just to clarify: I don't believe this about most of the scouts. However, if Arragoth is right about their reasoning, that is exactly what they are.

But there is still the potential, just because they haven't done it yet, they still could. It may be only 10% that actually would do anything, but the scouts would rather not deal with it at all.
There is a MUCH higher percentage of normaly accepted "strait" people that comit pediophilia then is in the gay community ... so if we are going with the safer arguement then strait people should not be allowed to be leaders

There is a MUCH higher percentage of normaly accepted "strait" people that comit pediophilia then is in the gay community ... so if we are going with the safer arguement then strait people should not be allowed to be leaders


Aren't most of the peds in prison peopole who claim to be heterosexual?


I know a boyscout whom was kicked out for being gay. He was proably one of the nicest guys you could know, and went the extra mile for BSA alot of the time.

Aren't most of the peds in prison peopole who claim to be heterosexual?

The terms "heterosexual" and "homosexual" only apply to adult relations. Pedophilia, while generally directed at one sex, is unrelated to a person's *adult* orientation. And yes, most pedophiles are heterosexual.

The terms "heterosexual" and "homosexual" only apply to adult relations. Pedophilia, while generally directed at one sex, is unrelated to a person's *adult* orientation. And yes, most pedophiles are heterosexual.


That was pointed to those who actually think just because someone is heterosexual that their child wont be molested, raped, or sexualy abused somehow by that person.


Sexuality isn't the problem it is people leaving their children alone with people who end up molesting them. There are many ways you could stop such things from taking place, and not block out someone for their sexuality.

YOU KNOW I THING THE CATHHLOIC RELIGON SHOULD CHANGE THERE RELIGION IN THE AREA THAT PRIEST ARE NOT ABLE TO HAVE SEX LISEN I FIND THAT WRONG BECAUSE IT CAUSES ALOT OF SEXUAL TENSON THINK OF IT THIS WAY IF THE CATHOLIC PRIEST WERE ABLE TO HAVE SEX YOU WOULD NOT GET SO MANY MOLESTER-PRIEST OK THEY WOULD NOT GET IN SO MUCH TROUBLE :fluffle:

YOU KNOW I THING THE CATHHLOIC RELIGON SHOULD CHANGE THERE RELIGION IN THE AREA THAT PRIEST ARE NOT ABLE TO HAVE SEX LISEN I FIND THAT WRONG BECAUSE IT CAUSES ALOT OF SEXUAL TENSON THINK OF IT THIS WAY IF THE CATHOLIC PRIEST WERE ABLE TO HAVE SEX YOU WOULD NOT GET SO MANY MOLESTER-PRIEST OK THEY WOULD NOT GET IN SO MUCH TROUBLE :fluffle:


Not truely, plenty of married people molest children.

Its more you dont leave your child with another adult that you feel might molest them, and have tought your child about what to do if this kinda stuff happens or starts to.

YOU KNOW I THING THE CATHHLOIC RELIGON SHOULD CHANGE THERE RELIGION IN THE AREA THAT PRIEST ARE NOT ABLE TO HAVE SEX LISEN I FIND THAT WRONG BECAUSE IT CAUSES ALOT OF SEXUAL TENSON THINK OF IT THIS WAY IF THE CATHOLIC PRIEST WERE ABLE TO HAVE SEX YOU WOULD NOT GET SO MANY MOLESTER-PRIEST OK THEY WOULD NOT GET IN SO MUCH TROUBLE :fluffle:
Go Away

In that case, the scouts are stupid bigots - doing something no different than saying "crime is more prevalent among blacks, so we're not going to let them in, because we don't want any scouts stealing anything."

Edit: Just to clarify: I don't believe this about most of the scouts. However, if Arragoth is right about their reasoning, that is exactly what they are.

I was a Scout many years ago, and I have a friend who worked for them as an Adult recently (for the organization itself, not at the troop level). Earlier in the thread I reported on an incident that happened in my troop where one of the boys in our troop was molested by an Adult male assistant scout master. It hurt him severely emotionally clearly, but we never saw either of them again so I don't know what the long term effects were. I can't imagine they were good.

The Boy Scouts in the US do require that scouts honor God and Country, but they aren't a religious organization nor a Christian one. Although it isn't spelled out in the Scout Law or Oath, there is an institutional bias against Gays according to the media and at least one law suit that I know of.

My own view is that the Boy Scouts have overreacted in order to show that they practice "due diligence" in order to defend themselves against the numerous law suits that have occured over the years whenever Adult leaders have molested boys. Its probably not the best approach, but what choice do they have really?

As all of the Adult leaders are volunteers, and the numbers are huge, doing a criminal background check just isn't possible financially for a troop or a Boy Scout Council to do. All troops and Councils that I am aware of operate on slim budgets in the best of times, and the money simply isn't there.

So the Boy Scouts do the best they can, hence the policy on Gays. Homosexuality is also contrary to the believes of many who are attracted to Boy Scouts to begin with as well (I am talking about the parents here in general), and they aren't usually going to be too happy about having a homosexual Adult hanging around their children for the weekend. Fair or not, that is a reality. Those type of parents aren't generally happy about unmarried couples of any sort hanging around their children either (which came up in a troop I was in as a kid in the 1970s).

So yes, to an extent its bigotry. But then again its a voluntary organization that does spell out clearly the rules to all Adult leaders when they decide to join (I have read the paperwork myself when I was assistant den leader of a bunch of Webelos a few years back)(Webelos for those who don't know, are 10 year olds and they are basically between the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts as far as activities go).

Actually though, more controversy has been created over the 'God' part of the Boy Scout rules than the anti homosexual bias. But thats another thread I suspect.

So yes, to an extent its bigotry. But then again its a voluntary organization that does spell out clearly the rules to all Adult leaders when they decide to join (I have read the paperwork myself when I was assistant den leader of a bunch of Webelos a few years back)(Webelos for those who don't know, are 10 year olds and they are basically between the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts as far as activities go).

...which, as I have pointed out, is fine, as long as they never, ever accept any money whatsoever from the government.

"So Child Porn is part of Christian Values?"

Yes.

Wrong.

Wrong.
Nice of you to be like him and make a well thought out arguement :p [sarcasm] (note incase others dont get it was refering to both posts)

oh well :fluffle:

Nice of you to be like him and make a well thought out arguement :p [sarcasm] (note incase others dont get it was refering to both posts)

oh well :fluffle:

Fine this will be my argument.

Damn cant use that example for it has the n word so i will use the Stalin one

Joseph Stalin, The Leninist Who Slaughtered Twice as Much as Adolf

Once upon the time there was a man named Joseph Stalin. After the death of Vladimir Lenin Stalin became in control of Soviet Russia. Stalin went around hunting Leninists and people who didnt agree with his views and ordered them to suicide in a week or he would kill all their whole family (kind of like Ivan except Ivan didnt have the suicide part). One day Stalin died. In the end he killed 20 million Russians.

Does the story of Stalin killing 20 million (Adolf killed 10 million, Benito a mere 400,000 compared to the others (1/5 of Stalin)) condemn all Russians to be murderous tyrants or Communists killers (besides the government/upper class). I think not so why should a few bad priests condemn the rest?

"So Child Porn is part of Christian Values?"

Yes.
Fuck you and burn in hell.

Fine this will be my argument.

Damn cant use that example for it has the n word so i will use the Stalin one

Joseph Stalin, The Leninist Who Slaughtered Twice as Much as Adolf

Once upon the time there was a man named Joseph Stalin. After the death of Vladimir Lenin Stalin became in control of Soviet Russia. Stalin went around hunting Leninists and people who didnt agree with his views and ordered them to suicide in a week or he would kill all their whole family (kind of like Ivan except Ivan didnt have the suicide part). One day Stalin died. In the end he killed 20 million Russians.

Does the story of Stalin killing 20 million (Adolf killed 10 million, Benito a mere 400,000 compared to the others (1/5 of Stalin)) condemn all Russians to be murderous tyrants or Communists killers (besides the government/upper class). I think not so why should a few bad priests condemn the rest?


I dont think it should but maybe the hiding of facts by the church as a whole tend to make people condem it more (It is perticularly hard for me to forgive them because of an involvement in the situation (stated earlier) but I try) but the active hiding of this information from the dioceses was reflective of a lot of things (how you interpret it sheds different light on it)

But personaly our priest "went away" because of a "nervous breakdown" when I was in about 6th grade ... I am 22 now so about 10 years of hiding it before anything was done about it

Fine this will be my argument.

Damn cant use that example for it has the n word so i will use the Stalin one

Joseph Stalin, The Leninist Who Slaughtered Twice as Much as Adolf

Once upon the time there was a man named Joseph Stalin. After the death of Vladimir Lenin Stalin became in control of Soviet Russia. Stalin went around hunting Leninists and people who didnt agree with his views and ordered them to suicide in a week or he would kill all their whole family (kind of like Ivan except Ivan didnt have the suicide part). One day Stalin died. In the end he killed 20 million Russians.

Does the story of Stalin killing 20 million (Adolf killed 10 million, Benito a mere 400,000 compared to the others (1/5 of Stalin)) condemn all Russians to be murderous tyrants or Communists killers (besides the government/upper class). I think not so why should a few bad priests condemn the rest?

In my eyes, yes.

In my eyes, yes.
Retard.

Retard.
Please refrain from flaming it is against forum rules

I dont think it should but maybe the hiding of facts by the church as a whole tend to make people condem it more (It is perticularly hard for me to forgive them because of an involvement in the situation (stated earlier) but I try) but the active hiding of this information from the dioceses was reflective of a lot of things (how you interpret it sheds different light on it)

Sorta kinda in their defence, hiding things is a core part of the hierarchy. If it makes the Church look bad, just hide it! It isn't that they were agreeing with the actions, so much as they have a habit of hiding anything that doesn't agree expressly with their dogma.

But personaly our priest "went away" because of a "nervous breakdown" when I was in about 6th grade ... I am 22 now so about 10 years of hiding it before anything was done about it

The priest at my aunt's church was "transferred". They just recently found out why, and she won't go back now.

I dont think it should but maybe the hiding of facts by the church as a whole tend to make people condem it more (It is perticularly hard for me to forgive them because of an involvement in the situation (stated earlier) but I try) but the active hiding of this information from the dioceses was reflective of a lot of things (how you interpret it sheds different light on it)

But personaly our priest "went away" because of a "nervous breakdown" when I was in about 6th grade ... I am 22 now so about 10 years of hiding it before anything was done about it

Any proof of them hiding it or did they just didnt know. A nervous breakdown means nothing and by went away i think you mean arrested. For any reason in particular was he arrested.

Sorta kinda in their defence, hiding things is a core part of the hierarchy. If it makes the Church look bad, just hide it! It isn't that they were agreeing with the actions, so much as they have a habit of hiding anything that doesn't agree expressly with their dogma.



The priest at my aunt's church was "transferred". They just recently found out why, and she won't go back now.
Nor will I
But it was a wee bit more self involvement that just being in the parish

I was in the catholic elementery school ... an alter boy...

(on a side note they let this man teach our 4th grade sex ed class)

Please refrain from flaming it is against forum rules
I appolagise, that was rude of me.
Let me put it this way, I think this person is mentally challanged becasue of their
obvious inability to percive logical argument, which is my argumentitive point. I just felt retard summed up my feelings more elequently.

In my eyes, yes.

I remember you, you were on my side of the argument about Prussia being better then the Britain and stuff. Were you the one he called the other person a (Word which is a noun. Definition- A person who is born without their parents being married)

So in your eyes it does condemn them. Does it condemn all germans of being a genocidal horde since what happened during ww2 or does it condemn the British for the Potatoe famine?

The title of this thread annoyed me, and the beginning of the first post too... my first reaction was, "WHAT? DemonLordEnigma is posting this?!"

Then I read through to the end. Too true, DLE --

--and let's watch how many people don't bother to read your whole post, totally miss your point, and use this as an opportunity to bash the Church and the Scouts.

Or just miss the point...like the author of post #5, for example.

Any proof of them hiding it or did they just didnt know. A nervous breakdown means nothing and by went away i think you mean arrested. For any reason in particular was he arrested.
I was implying that is what they TOLD the parish
It was announced in the last few years that he went away to st johns abby because the church found out about his disgressions

I know why he really went away ... because I was the REASON the church new and why it was covered up I knew at the time but because of the settlement untill recently I was under gag restriction

I appolagise, that was rude of me.
Let me put it this way, I think this person is mentally challanged becasue of their
obvious inability to percive logical argument, which is my argumentitive point. I just felt retard summed up my feelings more elequently.

And I counter by saying that I still haven't forgiven the Russians for what they did to my country.

Nor will I
But it was a wee bit more self involvement that just being in the parish

I was in the catholic elementery school ... an alter boy...

(on a side note they let this man teach our 4th grade sex ed class)

So you said He went away when you were in sixth grade (or was it when you were 22 and i read it wrong). Maybe the guy had temporary psychosis, hallunications or other mentally hampering disease/effect.

So you said He went away when you were in sixth grade (or was it when you were 22 and i read it wrong). Maybe the guy had temporary psychosis, hallunications or other mentally hampering disease/effect.

Please tell me you are not really this dense.

And I counter by saying that I still haven't forgiven the Russians for what they did to my country.
Hate is a good thing, hold on to it and watch it screw up sucessive generations. Ny ways I think this is slightly off the point, Scouts is a damm good organisation it taught me how to do out doors stuff that ild never have the chance or money to do otherwise. Scouts in the UK is secular now anyways.

So you said He went away when you were in sixth grade (or was it when you were 22 and i read it wrong). Maybe the guy had temporary psychosis, hallunications or other mentally hampering disease/effect.
No

Let me try re explain

and i will be blunt I hope this does not offend anyone

Between my 2nd and 5th grade years he systamaticly molsested me and 4 other boys (that I know of)

Early 6th grade year I told my parents ... ( I dont remember a lot of the fight/court battle at that age) but the ending consequences was I was issued a gag order that just expired
and he "went away"

The parish was told it was a nervous breakdown ... this is NOT true
They lied to the parish and issued a gag order to all involved and the courts upheld it till recently

Sorry for only trying to hint and not be blunt but now I am being so

And I counter by saying that I still haven't forgiven the Russians for what they did to my country.

I am as ethnocentric as well only the depths would be known based on my idealogies. The germans also destroyed the russians, the USians Canadians and Austrialians along with GB also attacked Germany.

I demand that most of the European Countries on the Allied Power in WW1 apologize for villianizing Germany in the Treaty of Versiallie but do I condemn the lot of them, nien.

No

Let me try re explain

and i will be blunt I hope this does not offend anyone

Between my 2nd and 5th grade years he systamaticly molsested me and 4 other boys (that I know of)

Early 6th grade year I told my parents ... ( I dont remember a lot of the fight/court battle at that age) but the ending consequences was I was issued a gag order that just expired
and he "went away"

The parish was told it was a nervous breakdown ... this is NOT true
They lied to the parish and issued a gag order to all involved and the courts upheld it till recently

Sorry for only trying to hint and not be blunt but now I am being so

Ok. Now that I understand let me give you the probable reason of the cover up.

Ever since the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church started fabricating hell. They said If you do so and so you rot in hell for all eternity. In the Bible it said something along the lines of Jesus locked hell or something (I dont really know the apostle creed) and that if you believe in him you wont die and that everyone goes to heaven. The Catholic Church started with the going to hell largely based on the success of the protestant religions and they didnt want any more converts but wanted the protestants to reconvert.

That is probably similar to todays reason of the coverup because most people won't like being in a religion where some of the Priests molest children and other things not exceptable (i based the most on my opinion). Its basically they dont want to loose their religion or followers.

Please tell me you are not really this dense.

Yes I am. I dont assume and therefore you cant really imply anything on me. I do however infer and thats how i came up with the temporary psychosis based on the Temporary breakdown and "went away"

while on the topic, most people polled who were roman catholic wished that the new pope would allow priests to get married. I found out at netscape I believe the 2nd out of the 3.

Ok. Now that I understand let me give you the probable reason of the cover up.

Ever since the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church started fabricating hell. They said If you do so and so you rot in hell for all eternity. In the Bible it said something along the lines of Jesus locked hell or something (I dont really know the apostle creed) and that if you believe in him you wont die and that everyone goes to heaven. The Catholic Church started with the going to hell largely based on the success of the protestant religions and they didnt want any more converts but wanted the protestants to reconvert.

That is probably similar to todays reason of the coverup because most people won't like being in a religion where some of the Priests molest children and other things not exceptable (i based the most on my opinion). Its basically they dont want to loose their religion or followers.


Honestly I dont give a flying fuck they came down on a group of 6th grade kids so hard that they feared their parents very wellbeing if the even told a therapist the issue

They came down so hard my parents had to cover 4 years of therapy out of their own pockets because the church fought so hard that we couldent claim our health insurance for it for years ... we are STILL fighting to get reimbursed now that the gag is off

They as an organization seperated us ... doubted us then put the fear of god into us so bad that we thought we were the sinners

I dont give a flying fuck what reasoning they use ... the ends do NOT justify the means (and I dont agree with their "ends")

They as a group hurt us about as much as you could a human and did it as a group
THAT was the begining of my distain for the ORGINAZATION ... my disillusionment in the faith came later

Honestly I dont give a flying fuck they came down on a group of 6th grade kids so hard that they feared their parents very wellbeing if the even told a therapist the issue

They came down so hard my parents had to cover 4 years of therapy out of their own pockets because the church fought so hard that we couldent claim our health insurance for it for years ... we are STILL fighting to get reimbursed now that the gag is off

They as an organization seperated us ... doubted us then put the fear of god into us so bad that we thought we were the sinners

I dont give a flying fuck what reasoning they use ... the ends do NOT justify the means (and I dont agree with their "ends")

They as a group hurt us about as much as you could a human and did it as a group
THAT was the begining of my distain for the ORGINAZATION ... my disillusionment in the faith came later

All I can say is ::hugs:: I have a good idea how hard these things can be to talk about or even think about, and I never went through any type of truly systematic abuse.

And you are absolutely right, there is absolutely no justification, no matter how much they think the church should be viewed in a positive light. Personally, I (and probably you as well) would view them in a much more positive light if they had made an effort to help (all parties involved), rather than simply sweep it all under a rug.

All I can say is ::hugs:: I have a good idea how hard these things can be to talk about or even think about, and I never went through any type of truly systematic abuse.

And you are absolutely right, there is absolutely no justification, no matter how much they think the church should be viewed in a positive light. Personally, I (and probably you as well) would view them in a much more positive light if they had made an effort to help (all parties involved), rather than simply sweep it all under a rug.
Yup ... but thats my issue with the organization not nessisarly christians some of you are really geat people :fluffle: I begrudge you nothing even if it is easy to do so.

My non belief in the faith is actualy fairly non related suprisingly, but I am sure it started with the hate for the organization

Yup ... but thats my issue with the organization not nessisarly christians some of you are really geat people :fluffle: I begrudge you nothing even if it is easy to do so.

yeah, i feel much the same way; i believe the Catholic Church, as an organization, is one of the most evil and dangerous organizations humanity has ever seen, but i don't have a problem with the individual Catholics i know and work with. i don't mind the beliefs they hold, though i don't agree with most of them, and i certainly don't try to force them to give up those beliefs. the only problem i have with them is that they often support (financially) the Church, which i believe is disgusting and wrong...but, of course, it's their money to spend as they wish, so even that doesn't end up being so much of a problem.

yeah, i feel much the same way; i believe the Catholic Church, as an organization, is one of the most evil and dangerous organizations humanity has ever seen, but i don't have a problem with the individual Catholics i know and work with. i don't mind the beliefs they hold, though i don't agree with most of them, and i certainly don't try to force them to give up those beliefs. the only problem i have with them is that they often support (financially) the Church, which i believe is disgusting and wrong...but, of course, it's their money to spend as they wish, so even that doesn't end up being so much of a problem.
Sometimes yeah