NationStates Jolt Archive

I am a masculist. I long for the day when men are treated as equals to women. This does not mean that I am anti-feminist. Women deserve the same treatment in the workforce and everywhere else. But I look around and see the next generation being brought up in a world where men are sexist, macho pigs who are only one short evolutionairy step away from monkeys, where you cannot show weakness or emotion. Men cannot, by definition, be in abusive relationships unless they are the abuser. They cannot be abused mentally or physically, cannot be vicitms of rape. If the men who suffer from these kinds of situations, and there are more of them than we think, if they ever came forward, they would be condemned as weak and would be dispised by society. There are few role models for young boys, and an verwhelming number of Archie Bunkers and Al Bundys. Both feminists and masculists, women and men, should strive for a day when we are equal in every way. Women and men should help each other, not push eachother apart.

What do other people think? Am I the only masculist out there? Tell me your opinions, and give us all some hope for the future.

Hurrah! A Reasonable Person At Last, After All These Years!

Hmm. Interesting.

This is somewhat irrelevant, but I've got a (male) friend who just got out of an abusive relationship, where he was the victim. Well, *I* would have called it an abusive relationship - the girl was really pushy and mean, she kept putting him down all the time and she was blackmailing him and stuff so he *couldn't* break up with her.

But I'm not sure if that story has a point.

Meh ... I am feminist to the point of socio-political equality and am masculist to the point of family dynamic (no, I don't mean head of household/word is law).

And there ya go.

I've had one girlfriend: Sloane P_____, who was always horrid to me. She and her friends were always horrid to me, giggling as I tried to express how much I liked her. And when I was feeling blue, she always ended up shouting at me to pull myself together. Waaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!

I agree with Khan.

Beat down sexism! (In any of it's forms)

Even in my Reichswehr women are allowed to do everything a man does, hah.

I am very Male progressive. One of the biggest mistakes we made in the last century was allowing women to progress at the expense of men. Now I am not saying woman should not have progressed, only that we as men need to grow our nuts back

I'm with you 100%.

Just don't put my name down untill you come up with a more snappy name. Masculism....just sounds like some gay pr0n star.

I am a masculist. I long for the day when men are treated as equals to women. This does not mean that I am anti-feminist. Women deserve the same treatment in the workforce and everywhere else. But I look around and see the next generation being brought up in a world where men are sexist, macho pigs who are only one short evolutionairy step away from monkeys, where you cannot show weakness or emotion. Men cannot, by definition, be in abusive relationships unless they are the abuser. They cannot be abused mentally or physically, cannot be vicitms of rape. If the men who suffer from these kinds of situations, and there are more of them than we think, if they ever came forward, they would be condemned as weak and would be dispised by society. There are few role models for young boys, and an verwhelming number of Archie Bunkers and Al Bundys. Both feminists and masculists, women and men, should strive for a day when we are equal in every way. Women and men should help each other, not push eachother apart.

What do other people think? Am I the only masculist out there? Tell me your opinions, and give us all some hope for the future.

Sorry... I don't see the day when your dream will be realized.... we live in a society of the Marketplace Man... we place emphasis on the aquistion of material goods, be it money or women, or less tangible ideals such as power or influence. Such things attribute to masculinity and as long as these things exist, men will continue to fight amongst themselves for superiority... and in this fight, women are objects attributable to worth... not individuals themselves. I agree with you wholeheardedly, 100%... I am all in favor for the equal treatment of every minority... be it women, ethnic minorities, or whatever. Equality, however, will not truly exist as long as such societal patterns are so deeply rooted in everyday life.

I agree. Men are forced into even more constraining social stereotypes than women. Men are often even vilified in our culture (violent ugly rapist slobbering sex maniac, etc.).

Although I agree with most of what you said, I think it is only valid in some parts of the world.
There is still FAR too much oppression of women in the world for most people to really give any validity to the masculism perspective.
My first thought when I read your post was " Men rule the world, so if they messed it up for themselves, too bad. " Granted, that wasn't a very nice thought - and not neccesarily how I felt after I thought about it for a moment - but it was my first reaction.

Totally. I can't even count the number of times that I've heard (regarding relationships): "Men don't really care about the girl. They just want to have sex." And it's simply not true.

I am a masculist. I long for the day when men are treated as equals to women. This does not mean that I am anti-feminist. Women deserve the same treatment in the workforce and everywhere else. But I look around and see the next generation being brought up in a world where men are sexist, macho pigs who are only one short evolutionairy step away from monkeys, where you cannot show weakness or emotion. Men cannot, by definition, be in abusive relationships unless they are the abuser. They cannot be abused mentally or physically, cannot be vicitms of rape. If the men who suffer from these kinds of situations, and there are more of them than we think, if they ever came forward, they would be condemned as weak and would be dispised by society. There are few role models for young boys, and an verwhelming number of Archie Bunkers and Al Bundys. Both feminists and masculists, women and men, should strive for a day when we are equal in every way. Women and men should help each other, not push eachother apart.

What do other people think? Am I the only masculist out there? Tell me your opinions, and give us all some hope for the future.

If anyone watches television and happens to see a commercial, they might be inclined to believe that men are ignorant, selfish and lazy. Especially white men. We are forever being tolerated by the wise and hip children and women and even the pets, all of which share knowing looks with each other, or the viewer. We are portrayed as loud,arrogant and selfish.
This is how everyone else sees us, huh? Or is it just the ultra hip, psuedo intellectuals embedded in advertising and media?
Kids watching TV are subconsciously learning not to take men seriously, that we will go away someday. unless they are boys aspiring to someday become simple buffoons.

much more on this...

I am very Male progressive. One of the biggest mistakes we made in the last century was allowing women to progress at the expense of men. Now I am not saying woman should not have progressed, only that we as men need to grow our nuts back


Right. I think most women appreciate a man that has no problem holding a door for her, but still has balls.

Right. I think most women appreciate a man that has no problem holding a door for her, but still has balls.
You nailed it!

I think the main problem with men is they have no self insight.

Women analise, analise and analise(sp) sometimes too much. Most men dont. thats it. they dont wonder why they do things or wonder how what they do affect other people.

Is it genetic or conditioned? I dont know.

Can they improve themselves? Not without some insight into themselves.

I wonder how much insight (considering the name) The Mighty Khan has? does that name say something about emulating out dated masculin ideals to anyone else here?

A strong woman needs a strong man.
I don't mind seeing my man cry - ( occasionally ) . I love that he writes poetry and does romantic things. But if he ever became a push-over , I'd be out the door.
There's is nothing sexier than a man who is strong and proud of his masculinity but who also keeps a special soft side for the people who are closest to his heart.
At least that's my opinion... :D

I think the main problem with men is they have no self insight.

Women analise, analise and analise(sp) sometimes too much. Most men dont. thats it. they dont wonder why they do things or wonder how what they do affect other people.

Is it genetic or conditioned? I dont know.

Can they improve themselves? Not without some insight into themselves.

I wonder how much insight (considering the name) The Mighty Khan has? does that name say something about emulating out dated masculin ideals to anyone else here?

I have done nothing but analyze myself and basically everyone I have had contact with for over a decade. It is simply what I do.

I honestly don't think I am the only man that does this.

I am a masculist. I long for the day when men are treated as equals to women. This does not mean that I am anti-feminist. Women deserve the same treatment in the workforce and everywhere else. But I look around and see the next generation being brought up in a world where men are sexist, macho pigs who are only one short evolutionairy step away from monkeys, where you cannot show weakness or emotion. Men cannot, by definition, be in abusive relationships unless they are the abuser. They cannot be abused mentally or physically, cannot be vicitms of rape. If the men who suffer from these kinds of situations, and there are more of them than we think, if they ever came forward, they would be condemned as weak and would be dispised by society. There are few role models for young boys, and an verwhelming number of Archie Bunkers and Al Bundys. Both feminists and masculists, women and men, should strive for a day when we are equal in every way. Women and men should help each other, not push eachother apart.

What do other people think? Am I the only masculist out there? Tell me your opinions, and give us all some hope for the future.

I can't wait to attend my first jockstrap bonfire! :D

I can't wait to attend my first jockstrap bonfire! :D


omg Hysterical !!!
I want to be there ! :p

I have done nothing but analyze myself and basically everyone I have had contact with for over a decade. It is simply what I do.

I honestly don't think I am the only man that does this.

Then why do so many of you not understand women? Most of us understand you.

Why do so many of you find it easy to compartmentalise your lives into work/home/children/wife/etc.

Why do so many of you cheat? Often long term.

Dont get me wrong, i have little respect for many women, but they at least they are ruled by their hearts, not their clitorus.

Then why do so many of you not understand women? Most of us understand you.

Why do so many of you find it easy to compartmentalise your lives into work/home/children/wife/etc.

Why do so many of you cheat? Often long term.

Dont get me wrong, i have little respect for many women, but they at least they are ruled by their hearts, not their clitorus.
Women cheat a lot too...

Then why do so many of you not understand women? Most of us understand you.

I can not speak for most men though I personally don't find women to be THAT hard to understand. Of course men ARE universally easier for reasons obvious.

Why do so many of you find it easy to compartmentalise your lives into work/home/children/wife/etc.

This, from what I understand may actually be biological. If I am not mistaken their have been studies on exactly how men and women are different that to a degree addressed this. Apparently men have a tendency to isolate different areas of life and devote total effort to each individually while women tend to view their lives as a whole and take everything on at once. This usually results in far better multitasking buy a substantially less focused outlook.

Of course, individual ambition WILL vary.

Why do so many of you cheat? Often long term.

Women do the exact same thing, though I am not familiar with statistics or ratios. I have never cheated on anyone I have been in a relationship with so I simply have no personal "experience."

Dont get me wrong, I have little respect for many women, but they at least they are ruled by their hearts, not their clitorus.

This just goes into the area of stereotypes, I'm going to avoid it

A strong woman needs a strong man.
I don't mind seeing my man cry - ( occasionally ) . I love that he writes poetry and does romantic things. But if he ever became a push-over , I'd be out the door.
There's is nothing sexier than a man who is strong and proud of his masculinity but who also keeps a special soft side for the people who are closest to his heart.
At least that's my opinion... :D


And thats a sound, healthy opinion. Your man is lucky to have someone clear headed like you.

Thanks , Carni ! I appreciate that :p

Women cheat a lot too...

Yes, but WE feel bad about it! ;)

I can not speak for most men though I personally don't find women to be THAT hard to understand. Of course men ARE universally easier for reasons obvious.

Yes they are. And they love to say we're ruled by hormones. Testosterone is the most harmful hormone for monogamy ever conceved!

This, from what I understand may actually be biological. If I am not mistaken their have been studies on exactly how men and women are different that to a degree addressed this. Apparently men have a tendency to isolate different areas of life and devote total effort to each individually while women tend to view their lives as a whole and take everything on at once. This usually results in far better multitasking buy a substantially less focused outlook.

Yet in the modern world which values multi tasking, women are paid substantially less even though we are cabable of more in the work enviroment. it's not our fault you dont carry and rear the kids. and when we are the greater providers you get all huffy and put us down for other things 'cos earning more than your woman partner is the bee all and end all, seemingly.

This just goes into the area of stereotypes, I'm going to avoid it

You shouldnt. Women have affairs to feel loved and wanted. Men have affairs because they can.

I'm not even going to try to argue with you, it won't amount to anything. Your conclusions are already made, completely inflexible, and deeply ingrained.

Have a good day.

*snip* You shouldnt. Women have affairs to feel loved and wanted. Men have affairs because they can.

Now THAT is insulting. Just because they can? My former girlfriend, S. P____, who I wrote about earlier, was horrid. I wrote poetry to her, I painted pictures to her memory, I carried a lock of her hair with me at all times. And all she could thing of doing was insulting me and pushing me over all the time. And whenever I asked her why, she said she had PMS. PMS 24/7/4/12/365.

And about the lock of hair: well, it's a victorian Goth thing to do, and it reminded me of her.

It seems to me that all these social constraints placed on men are placed on them out of their own fear of what other men will think.

Let's look at it this way: women appreciate a man who can show emotion, men call such other men sissys. Men are more than welcome to wear dresses and makeup and pluck their eyebrows (hell, those of you with unibrows are encouraged to do the latter) and you know, if you want to achieve pay equality with women, then ok, we'll reduce your salaries a bit. Sound fair?

How about you guys stop giving a rat's ass what other men will think of you, stop calling other men sissies and pussies for not behaving in a "manly" way and then voila. Hell, if you get rid of such stigmas, then perhaps men who are abused in relationships will be more likely to come forward. Ever think of that?

I'm Goth. I wear makeup and eyeliner. TADAAH!!! And, I don't call other men pussies or sissies or pansies or whatever based on whether or not they wear makeup. I call them pansies if they refuse to take action, if they are cowardly. So, take your arguement and stuff it.

I'm Goth. I wear makeup and eyeliner. TADAAH!!! And, I don't call other men pussies or sissies or pansies or whatever based on whether or not they wear makeup. I call them pansies if they refuse to take action, if they are cowardly. So, take your arguement and stuff it.
Uh... right...

In one of my classes, one guy showed up wearing a pink shirt. None of the girls said anything, yet a couple guys made a huge deal about it.

I have never seen a girl ostracize a man for being emotional, yet I have seen it happen to guys. I know guys who refuse to show emotion around their buddies, but when in a one on one situation with a girl or a very very close friend, they will.

Guys attack guys for things more than girls attack guys like that.
The same way girls attack girls for many things when guys don't do it.

And for another thing, telling me to take my argument and stuff it because one person who wants to prove his point says he's different than what I pegged as average is completely rude and childish. How old are you? 14?

Okay, sorry about the "stuff it" comment. It's just that I think that characterizing all men as rude and unfeeling is just as bad as many men characterizing all women as over-emotional, constantly upset, and uncapable of anything. While men should try not to be so stupid, I think you should consider not over-generalizing.

...And do you think I have a 14-year-old vocabulary? Most 14-year-olds I know speak in l33z, also known as H4X0R. LOL!!!11

I'm not even going to try to argue with you, it won't amount to anything. Your conclusions are already made, completely inflexible, and deeply ingrained.

There's no point in having an poinion if you cant defend/discuss it. :p

Let's look at it this way: women appreciate a man who can show emotion, men call such other men sissys. Men are more than welcome to wear dresses and makeup and pluck their eyebrows (hell, those of you with unibrows are encouraged to do the latter) and you know, if you want to achieve pay equality with women, then ok, we'll reduce your salaries a bit. Sound fair?

I actually admire men who stand up for what they believe in or feel they are. Woman can be just as mean as men often, just more subtly.

And come on, (most) men will never be happy on equil pay with women. It's an ego thing!

Guys attack guys for things more than girls attack guys like that.

True. It's a matchoism. But girls feel pressure too. if you go out to work you are neglectful, if you stay at home you are a sad "mother" creature who can only talk about nappies and teething.

Okay, sorry about the "stuff it" comment. It's just that I think that characterizing all men as rude and unfeeling is just as bad as many men characterizing all women as over-emotional, constantly upset, and uncapable of anything. While men should try not to be so stupid, I think you should consider not over-generalizing.

...And do you think I have a 14-year-old vocabulary? Most 14-year-olds I know speak in l33z, also known as H4X0R. LOL!!!11
I wasn't characterizing men as having no feelings. I said that men tend to be afraid to show their feelings because of what other men will think.

And I pegged you for a 14 year old because of the immature and rude comment you made.

Arrr. Not going to argue with you, Dakini, only I hope that some day you fall off the edge of a really really really tall building.

I wasn't characterizing men as having no feelings. I said that men tend to be afraid to show their feelings because of what other men will think.


Agreed. And i think it is unfortunate, because this seems to be a cultural thing that could change if people were ony half-arsed enough to try.

Arrr. Not going to argue with you, Dakini, only I hope that some day you fall off the edge of a really really really tall building.
lol.

So you're confirming that you're 14 now? Or would 12 be a better guess?

Isn't this flaming?

FLAMING? Last time I checked, flaming was... not that.

Agggghh. My parents hate me, my siblings hate me, I can't even please the anymous NSers, I think I'll go and die.

Thanks , Carni ! I appreciate that :p


hey-I think I like "Carni"...

FLAMING? Last time I checked, flaming was... not that.

Agggghh. My parents hate me, my siblings hate me, I can't even please the anymous NSers, I think I'll go and die.


Your parents probably dont hate you-they are probably more disappointed that you arent the way they expected you would be. Making you just like most of the rest of us.
Dont let it get to you, pal. I am trying hard right now to be mindful I dont let my expectations hurt my children's feeling. I have three kids and want the best for them. And I dont want to turn out the way my parents were for me.
Dont despair.

Totally. I can't even count the number of times that I've heard (regarding relationships): "Men don't really care about the girl. They just want to have sex." And it's simply not true.
Yes that's what I'm talking about. Then there is the myth that men never get hurt feelings, only bruised egos.

I think the main problem with men is they have no self insight.

Women analise, analise and analise(sp) sometimes too much. Most men dont. thats it. they dont wonder why they do things or wonder how what they do affect other people.
I actually do this and people sometimes think i'm a weirdo for it.

Then why do so many of you not understand women? Most of us understand you.

Why do so many of you find it easy to compartmentalise your lives into work/home/children/wife/etc.

Why do so many of you cheat? Often long term.

Dont get me wrong, i have little respect for many women, but they at least they are ruled by their hearts, not their clitorus.
1. Of course it looks that way from a female perspective. I don't know if it's true or not, just pointing out that you can't really ever know.

2. This is a bad thing?

3. Bullshit. A minority of men are cheaters and I'm sure that just as many women cheat too.

4. Yeah, sure, keep telling yourself that!

Yes, but WE feel bad about it! ;)

Yes they are. And they love to say we're ruled by hormones. Testosterone is the most harmful hormone for monogamy ever conceved!

Yet in the modern world which values multi tasking, women are paid substantially less even though we are cabable of more in the work enviroment. it's not our fault you dont carry and rear the kids. and when we are the greater providers you get all huffy and put us down for other things 'cos earning more than your woman partner is the bee all and end all, seemingly.

You shouldnt. Women have affairs to feel loved and wanted. Men have affairs because they can.
1. You feel bad about it? How do ya know? Got experience?

2. Just like oestrogen, right?

3. I support equal pay for equal work.

4. Stereotypes again.

Unfortunately, you seem to live up to many of the negative stereotypes about feminists.

It seems to me that all these social constraints placed on men are placed on them out of their own fear of what other men will think.

How about you guys stop giving a rat's ass what other men will think of you, stop calling other men sissies and pussies for not behaving in a "manly" way and then voila.
I think you are right, I wouldn't suggest that all social constraints on men are female-imposed. But fear of what your own gender thinks of you are not uniquely male traits. Why do you think women worry so much about clothes and being called a slut and other such things?

Once again, I agree with you!

Of course it looks that way from a female perspective. I don't know if it's true or not, just pointing out that you can't really ever know.

Then how come i can predict men's mbehavious at least 90% of the time. None of my boufriends have ever understood me or exoeced my reactions. It's the same with my friends.

This is a bad thing?

Compentalizing your life? in other words not thinking about yout sereiouslu ill wife/child/mother/father because you are in work? not coming home early because the kids are a hassle "she" should deal with and you have money to earn. Not loving your father because it isnt a "manly" think to do. my brother in lay idolised his father (supposidly) but didnt even hig him on his death bed.

A bad thing?

Bullshit. A minority of men are cheaters and I'm sure that just as many women cheat too.

Yes they do, but they're looking for different things.

Yeah, sure, keep telling yourself that!

I will. The day a man has an affair without sex, i'll believe he's really a in love affair.

you all think you're gods gift just because we humour you and groan at the right times. We're more interested in intimacy than sex. You are more interested in friction than intimacy. intimacy is just a means to an end.

You feel bad about it? How do ya know? Got experience

Yes. I feel like shit because of what i did 12 yrs ago. I would never, ever do it again. i learnt my lesson, wny dint men learn theirs?

Just like oestrogen, right?

In that it created so many unwated children? In that it's the driving force behind rape?

Oestrogen gives you PMT for a few days a month. It doesnt rape women (see reports on vietman or Iraq then tell me testosterone is just like oestrogen)

Try reading a little about the 1800's and early 1900's. I dont think you'd feel quite so cute and cuddly about your fellow men then! then read modern biographies amd true crime books. Women are fignting for their rights. men are moaning about what's been taken away from them.

I think you are right, I wouldn't suggest that all social constraints on men are female-imposed. But fear of what your own gender thinks of you are not uniquely male traits. Why do you think women worry so much about clothes and being called a slut and other such things?

Once again, I agree with you!
I think I made that point for women as well.

Also, to the goth kid, I didnt' mean flaming as in "OMG, you're so gay" I meant flaming like you're sayign that you hope I die...

I am a masculist. I long for the day when men are treated as equals to women. This does not mean that I am anti-feminist. Women deserve the same treatment in the workforce and everywhere else. But I look around and see the next generation being brought up in a world where men are sexist, macho pigs who are only one short evolutionairy step away from monkeys, where you cannot show weakness or emotion. Men cannot, by definition, be in abusive relationships unless they are the abuser. They cannot be abused mentally or physically, cannot be vicitms of rape. If the men who suffer from these kinds of situations, and there are more of them than we think, if they ever came forward, they would be condemned as weak and would be dispised by society. There are few role models for young boys, and an verwhelming number of Archie Bunkers and Al Bundys. Both feminists and masculists, women and men, should strive for a day when we are equal in every way. Women and men should help each other, not push eachother apart.

What do other people think? Am I the only masculist out there? Tell me your opinions, and give us all some hope for the future.

I can only speak for myself, and I readily admit being abused as a child.

I cry at movies, as well as when I see major disasters. On the morning of 9/11, I was sitting at my Computer doing my trading Online, with the TV going in the background. As the reports started coming in, and I witnessed the second plane hit, I knew, like many other U.S. citizens that WE were under attack... and I broke down in tears as I thought of ALL of the people who had just died for some senseless cause, even the Hijackers, I prayed for them too. I cried for hours that day, after a while they were tears of defiance, I wanted AT the people who had done this myself! I was screaming at the television, in tears asking why anyone would do such things...

I PRAYED that our Leader would, THIS TIME, have the resolve to do what needed to be done to finally rid the World of the type of people who feel the need to express their views in this manner. If they were going to try and force themselves upon us, then by God they were about to SEE what it was like to have US forced upon them!

And I would also say that it looks like my prayers were answered that day, and continue to be to this day...

And we can already see how things may just be changing for the better over there. Which means it will be better for all of us.

Thank God prayers ARE ANSWERED!

Sorry for the caps, but I feel very strongly about this. I also apologize if anyone thinks this is “Off-Topic” in any manner or insults anyone in any way, that was not my intent, I just thought it was my own personal best example for what was being discussed.

Regards,
Gaar

I see no difference between feminism and masculism except the terms used. Anyone who truly wants to fight for equity must, by definition, fight for equity for all people.

Yes they do, but they're looking for different things.
If this is even true, does this make female infidelity morally superior?

I'll respond to the rest of your post when I have time. Now I must go to work, where, as a male scumbag, I will undoubtedly act like an inhuman monster.

I agree with most of the points made, equality is what we want.

As to the differences between men and women, let celebrate them.
(I have been the other person in an affair, she just wanted sex. As did two of my wife friends, one of who invited both of us to her bed)

The difference is less than some would have us belive *cough*Feminist Cat Women*cough*

So anyway, :fluffle: and try to do something for the opposite sex today.

1. Then how come i can predict men's mbehavious at least 90% of the time. None of my boufriends have ever understood me or exoeced my reactions. It's the same with my friends.

2. Compentalizing your life? in other words not thinking about yout sereiouslu ill wife/child/mother/father because you are in work? not coming home early because the kids are a hassle "she" should deal with and you have money to earn. Not loving your father because it isnt a "manly" think to do. my brother in lay idolised his father (supposidly) but didnt even hig him on his death bed.

A bad thing?

3. I will. The day a man has an affair without sex, i'll believe he's really a in love affair.

you all think you're gods gift just because we humour you and groan at the right times. We're more interested in intimacy than sex. You are more interested in friction than intimacy. intimacy is just a means to an end.

4. Yes. I feel like shit because of what i did 12 yrs ago. I would never, ever do it again. i learnt my lesson, wny dint men learn theirs?

5. In that it created so many unwanted children? In that it's the driving force behind rape?

Oestrogen gives you PMT for a few days a month. It doesnt rape women (see reports on vietman or Iraq then tell me testosterone is just like oestrogen)

6. Try reading a little about the 1800's and early 1900's. I dont think you'd feel quite so cute and cuddly about your fellow men then! then read modern biographies amd true crime books. Women are fignting for their rights. men are moaning about what's been taken away from them.
1. Firstly, what misbehaviours are you talking about? I highly doubt that you understand men as well as you think you do.

2. Do you honestly think that men are that heartless and insensitive? That they don't think about the people they love during the working day? It doesn't stop them from being professional. That's sad about your brother. That's not a part of male nature; rather, societal repression.

3. Wow, I didn't realise that love and sex are mutually exclusive. What makes you think that female affairs are non-sexual? Was yours not?

We don't "all" think that we're god's gift to the world. Explain why intimacy is innately superior to sex. I would also love you to explain your comment "we humour you and groan at the right times" - the whole "women like men" thing is just an act, right?

4. How can you compare your action to those of all men? How do you know that all adulterous men are repeat offenders? Cheaters are a minority among men so by your own criteria you are already morally inferior to the faithful male majority. On a personal note, I have never cheated on any partner of mine. Should we take this as some kind of brownie point for men in this argument?

5. Can testosterone exclusively be blamed for these things? If men were the ones who carried the babies, you might well blame oestrogen for all those unwanted children. Would you?

The driving force behind rape? Maybe, but if women were the physically stronger sex, then you might well blame oestrogen for rape. Would you?

Did you know that studies in America have shown that female cops are more likely to shoot to kill than male cops? Proportionately, more people die at the bullets of female cops than male cops. Should we blame oestrogen?

6. I don't have the kind of delusions you have about my gender being wonderful and perfect. I know that men in the past oppressed women. I myself support feminism, and I don't think that anything has been "taken away" from men.

Be sure to respond!

Wow, for an internet thread this is pretty fair. In reading this thread i've only seen one person i would call sexist, keep it up!

Yes, but WE feel bad about it! ;)



Yes they are. And they love to say we're ruled by hormones. Testosterone is the most harmful hormone for monogamy ever conceved!



Yet in the modern world which values multi tasking, women are paid substantially less even though we are cabable of more in the work enviroment. it's not our fault you dont carry and rear the kids. and when we are the greater providers you get all huffy and put us down for other things 'cos earning more than your woman partner is the bee all and end all, seemingly.



You shouldnt. Women have affairs to feel loved and wanted. Men have affairs because they can.


who says you feel more bad then men? how can you compare subjective experiences? just because we dont express it like YOU do proves nothing

If your problem is testosterone it was around before manogomy yet the idea seems to have survived

Again how do you know? can a man not want affection himself

You steriotype all men yet I bet you would be just as upset if someone reffered to you as "a barefooted baby factory that is just a big jumble of worthless emotion" (note I dont believe this I was making a point not flaming)

Then why do so many of you not understand women? Most of us understand you.

Why do so many of you cheat? Often long term.

Dont get me wrong, i have little respect for many women, but they at least they are ruled by their hearts, not their clitorus.

This is EXACTLY the forced stereotype that made me start this thread. Children right now, and for the past decade at least, have been watching this kind of thing played out in front of them and acting on it. We want this to change, but we haven't been given a chance. We re also fighting millions of years of evolution that tell us to plant our seed in as many women as possible. Monogamy does not make sense to a man from that perspective, yet we try, and most of us succeed. The fact that we can have long term relationships, that so many of us DON'T cheat is a testament to what we want to be. What makes you think that men don't feel bad when they cheat? Sure, some of us don't, most do. The think about what they are doing to their spouse, to their girlfriend, and feel like shit. Most of us don't want to be ruled by our genitals, it is not a conscious decision and we are fighting it every day, have been for a long, long time. We don't want to be seen like this.

PS: This thread is mainly about western societies since that is my experiance. I agree with the comments made earlier about other parts of the world, but that is not what I am trying to address.

I am a masculist. I long for the day when men are treated as equals to women. This does not mean that I am anti-feminist. Women deserve the same treatment in the workforce and everywhere else. But I look around and see the next generation being brought up in a world where men are sexist, macho pigs who are only one short evolutionairy step away from monkeys, where you cannot show weakness or emotion. Men cannot, by definition, be in abusive relationships unless they are the abuser. They cannot be abused mentally or physically, cannot be vicitms of rape. If the men who suffer from these kinds of situations, and there are more of them than we think, if they ever came forward, they would be condemned as weak and would be dispised by society. There are few role models for young boys, and an verwhelming number of Archie Bunkers and Al Bundys. Both feminists and masculists, women and men, should strive for a day when we are equal in every way. Women and men should help each other, not push eachother apart.

What do other people think? Am I the only masculist out there? Tell me your opinions, and give us all some hope for the future.

There's two big problems preventing real equality between the sexes. One is men, the other is women.

A huge part of the feminist movement was about making women the equals of men. Not making the genders equal, but changing women to show that they could be just like men. That's never going to work. Women fought so hard for what men had that they forgot to get someone to look after what they had.

It would be nice if women really wanted to be given all the same choices as men and enter into a truly equal partnership between the genders, but while men have learned to be attracted to intelligent women, independent women, athletic women, aggresive women, and tall women, women have never really gotten the hang of being attracted to passive men, co-operative men, sedentary men, absent minded men, and short men. Don't even ask about poor men.

Rather than fighting to occupy the positions men occupied, they should probably have fought for recognition of the value of the positions that they themselves occupied. Then men would have been clamoring for their share of it and viola equality of the sexes.

A huge part of the feminist movement was about making women the equals of men. Not making the genders equal, but changing women to show that they could be just like men. That's never going to work. Women fought so hard for what men had that they forgot to get someone to look after what they had.

This is why many of us talk about "equity", rather than "equality". There are biological differences between men and women, and, as such, there will be some differences in treatment. Equality would mean that men could get hysterectomies. Oh wait! It doesn't work that way! However, equity would mean that a woman can get her tubes tied or a man can get a vasectomy and both are equally covered by the health industry.

It would be nice if women really wanted to be given all the same choices as men and enter into a truly equal partnership between the genders, but while men have learned to be attracted to intelligent women, independent women, athletic women, aggresive women, and tall women, women have never really gotten the hang of being attracted to passive men, co-operative men, sedentary men, absent minded men, and short men. Don't even ask about poor men.

Look kids! I found a sexist!

bump (awaiting a reply)

U2 "The Joshua Tree" comes to mind.

U2 "The Joshua Tree" comes to mind.
Are you sure you're in the right thread?

You ever heard the lyrics?

My soul will belong to one women. With or without her I'll be complete. If she decides to be with me, I'll give myself away to her. To understand the mystery of being a man.

You ever heard the lyrics?
To which song? The Joshua Tree is an album.

Come on, Feminist, you can answer me better than this!

Come on, Feminist, you can answer me better than this!

Better than saying that feminism=masculism=the fight for equity?

Look kids! I found a sexist!

No, a sexist would be if I was complaining that women can't or shouldn't be smart, athletic, independent or assertive.

The point was that before the feminist movement classically masculine traits were lionized and feminine ones trivialized. The pioneers of the women's movement failed to realize that both sides of the equation were important and so masculine traits remained the prestige traits and for women to seek equality they were encouraged to emulate those characteristics. Men were never really encouraged to pursue more classically feminine traits and today both men and women consider it somewhat inferior for men to demonstrate traits such as communication skills or a willingness to put oneself in the others position.

Just take a look at the criticism's that liberals get from conservatives. Wimps, snobs, etc. Remember Bush's famous line? "We don't do nuance in Texas." I.E. It's more verile and manly to have a simplistic world view and beat others into submission to it.

Fundamentally, feminism is just sexism against men.

Sorry for the delay Swimmingpool. I do have a life outside the internet and my mother has bronchitus. I've had more important things to do :rolleyes:

Firstly, what misbehaviours are you talking about? I highly doubt that you understand men as well as you think you do..

I meant behaviour, not misbehaviour. Dyslexia is a bitch but i can still predict your behavious 9 times out of 10, in any situation.

2. Do you honestly think that men are that heartless and insensitive? That they don't think about the people they love during the working day? It doesn't stop them from being professional. That's sad about your brother. That's not a part of male nature; rather, societal repression..

Aah, so you care about your kids, just not enough to leave work when they're sick? Thats the mothers job right, even if she works.

I know you arent all so selfish, but the majority i come across are.

3. Wow, I didn't realise that love and sex are mutually exclusive. What makes you think that female affairs are non-sexual? Was yours not?.

Mine was a mistaken quest for love and aproval. I didnt feel valued (in fact i wasnt valued) so i looked elsewhere. it was a huge mistake, terribly hurtful to the boyfriend and something i have never and will never repeat again. I wont use alachol as an excuse as so many men do because i was still both compitent and knew what i was about to do was wrong.

We don't "all" think that we're god's gift to the world. Explain why intimacy is innately superior to sex. I would also love you to explain your comment "we humour you and groan at the right times" - the whole "women like men" thing is just an act, right?.[/UOTE]

OK, intimacy is about a bond. it's about loving, caring and sharing things. Being appriceated and being there for someone when they need you.

Sex is about friction and orgasm can easily be brought about by your hand for guys.

[QUOTE] 4. How can you compare your action to those of all men? How do you know that all adulterous men are repeat offenders? Cheaters are a minority among men so by your own criteria you are already morally inferior to the faithful male majority. On a personal note, I have never cheated on any partner of mine. Should we take this as some kind of brownie point for men in this argument?.

Besides my own experiences, I have many female friends, they in turn have boyfriends and husbands. Do you think i made this up? No, it's experience, mine and my friends.

5. Can testosterone exclusively be blamed for these things? If men were the ones who carried the babies, you might well blame oestrogen for all those unwanted children. Would you?

No, we have a little something called empathy. Women generally dont use other people, for sex or otherwise.

The driving force behind rape? Maybe, but if women were the physically stronger sex, then you might well blame oestrogen for rape. Would you?

If you cenmically castrate a man (IE mane him impotent) he doesnt rape again. See above for the rest.

Did you know that studies in America have shown that female cops are more likely to shoot to kill than male cops? Proportionately, more people die at the bullets of female cops than male cops. Should we blame oestrogen?.

No, you should probably blame fear. Man on man in a fight is one thing, man on woman, the woman is likley to loose, i'd fire first too.

6. I don't have the kind of delusions you have about my gender being wonderful and perfect. I know that men in the past oppressed women. I myself support feminism, and I don't think that anything has been "taken away" from men..

Wonderful! Maybe you're one of those few men who are kind and decent and loving and will make some girl happy for the rest of your lives.

I just dont think most are like that, sorry.

Be sure to respond!

Will do! :rolleyes:

What the hell are you guys fighting about? Is it which gender is the most stereotyped, what? I think we all agree that both genders should get equal treatment when it comes to jobs, education etc. so what is everyone's problem? Some people just seem to have a chip on their shoulder i guess.

No, a sexist would be if I was complaining that women can't or shouldn't be smart, athletic, independent or assertive.

You essentially generalized all women as shallow - a sexist statement no better than me saying "All men are pigs who want nothing but sex."

The point was that before the feminist movement classically masculine traits were lionized and feminine ones trivialized. The pioneers of the women's movement failed to realize that both sides of the equation were important and so masculine traits remained the prestige traits and for women to seek equality they were encouraged to emulate those characteristics. Men were never really encouraged to pursue more classically feminine traits and today both men and women consider it somewhat inferior for men to demonstrate traits such as communication skills or a willingness to put oneself in the others position.

Maybe *you* do, but those who truly fight for equity do not.

Meanwhile, have you been under a rock for the past 20 years? There are all sorts of movements for men to demonstrate traits such as communications skills and empathy - as traits that *all* people should have.

Fundamentally, feminism is just sexism against men.

No, it really isn't.

I meant behaviour, not misbehaviour. Dyslexia is a bitch but i can still predict your behavious 9 times out of 10, in any situation.
That's great. Girls are mostly predictable too. So what have we learned? Most humans are predictable.

Aah, so you care about your kids, just not enough to leave work when they're sick? Thats the mothers job right, even if she works.

A lot of the time it is not possible to leave your job for days on end without losing it. I'm not a parent, but I'm sure that most parent couples I know would have whichever parent who was able to stay at home, do so.

I wont use alachol as an excuse as so many men do because i was still both compitent and knew what i was about to do was wrong.

We don't "all" think that we're god's gift to the world. Explain why intimacy is innately superior to sex. I would also love you to explain your comment "we humour you and groan at the right times" - the whole "women like men" thing is just an act, right?.

OK, intimacy is about a bond. it's about loving, caring and sharing things. Being appriceated and being there for someone when they need you.

Sex is about friction and orgasm can easily be brought about by your hand for guys.
I don't consider alcohol to be an excuse for any wrongdoing. I'm glad you're not trying to hide behind it "as so many men do" (as you say) - why do you have to attach an irrelevant, generalising jab at men to every point you make?

So now you're trying to claim a female monopoly on love? We men like our sex (as do women), but do you really think that we're so shallow as to be uninterested in love and intimacy?

Besides my own experiences, I have many female friends, they in turn have boyfriends and husbands. Do you think i made this up? No, it's experience, mine and my friends.

No, we have a little something called empathy. Women generally dont use other people, for sex or otherwise.
I'm sorry that the men your friends have had experience with are bastards. It may have something to do with the fact that many (particularly younger) women are attracted to guys who are assholes.

*sigh* Men also feel empathy but I accept the truth that women tend to be more caring. Maybe more men would be too if this was not perceived as a "weak" trait in men. Oh and the bit about "Women generally don't use other people, for sex or otherwise." That's just not true. Not true at all. Many, perhaps most, women can be as ruthlessly self-interested as any man.

If you cenmically castrate a man (IE mane him impotent) he doesnt rape again. See above for the rest.

I'll agree with this one, but you should probably know that rapists are not triggered by lust alone, it's often due as much to their psychological problems. In light of your recent negative statements about testosterone, I should hope you don't think all men should be castrated, do you?

No, you should probably blame fear. Man on man in a fight is one thing, man on woman, the woman is likley to loose, i'd fire first too.
Well, as long as we're accepting that it's not only we evil men who get violent because of our instincts and impulses.

Wonderful! Maybe you're one of those few men who are kind and decent and loving and will make some girl happy for the rest of your lives.

I just dont think most are like that, sorry.

Thanks, but I think that in reality (unless you live in some extremely backwards place) you'll find that most men support equal rights for women. Just don't call it feminism. Thanks to our sensationalist media that word has been dragged through the mud to mean "man-hating female supremacist".

What the hell are you guys fighting about? Is it which gender is the most stereotyped, what? I think we all agree that both genders should get equal treatment when it comes to jobs, education etc. so what is everyone's problem? Some people just seem to have a chip on their shoulder i guess.
Yes Feminist Cat Women has a MASSIVE chip on her shoulder about men. She thinks she has been dealt a crap hand by them (despite the fact that she herself has cheated on her male partner in the past).

The fact that she so selectively responds to my questions, goes off the subject, and gives frustratingly minimal answers is supremely annoying.

Fundamentally, feminism is just sexism against men.
Wrong, you're thinking about female supremacism. It's not a widely used phrase but I think it should be. Feminism is an inherently good concept which does not deserve to be associated with man-hating extremism.

I meant behaviour, not misbehaviour. Dyslexia is a bitch but i can still predict your behavious 9 times out of 10, in any situation.

And a woman’s can't? And so what, what does this prove anyway, even if you can... which I am not about to admit that you can?!?!

Aah, so you care about your kids, just not enough to leave work when they're sick? Thats the mothers job right, even if she works.

I know you arent all so selfish, but the majority i come across are.

Again with that majority thing... I am beginning to believe you just keep the wrong company.

Mine was a mistaken quest for love and aproval. I didnt feel valued (in fact i wasnt valued) so i looked elsewhere. it was a huge mistake, terribly hurtful to the boyfriend and something i have never and will never repeat again. I wont use alachol as an excuse as so many men do because i was still both compitent and knew what i was about to do was wrong.

Besides my own experiences, I have many female friends, they in turn have boyfriends and husbands. Do you think i made this up? No, it's experience, mine and my friends.

Again, might I suggest you look at the company you keep?

No, we have a little something called empathy. Women generally dont use other people, for sex or otherwise.

Really? Then please explain "your own" admitted to affair above?

Wonderful! Maybe you're one of those few men who are kind and decent and loving and will make some girl happy for the rest of your lives.

I just dont think most are like that, sorry.

And once again I believe we need to visit that "circle of friends" of yours...

Please stop blaming the rest of us because you choose such people to be your friends, ok?

Thanks,
Gaar

Whatever happened to General So and So, who once posted that the worst thing to happen in the US in the 20th century was women's suffrage?

Whatever happened to General So and So, who once posted that the worst thing to happen in the US in the 20th century was women's suffrage?
General Curtis E LeMay, that fascist nutcase?

I'm glad we have such a champion in you, Swimmingpool. Its been a pleasure reding your and Cat's debate. Cheerio!

i am not a "masculinist" or a feminist or whatever, but here is what i think...

not that i hate all feminists, but i get sick of them calling me an "oppressive, omnipowerful pig." i am sick of them saying that i have no feelings and that i should be damned for oppressing the female sex.

WTF, PEOPLE?!

since when have i ever wronged you? i never rambled some sexist bullshit or hurt any of you... i think that past experiences have skewed your view of men as a whole!! you dont know if all men are like some 'shovanistic pig"... you simply assume it and press it on any man that you think has violated you.

in this sense, i am a masculist... i get sick of women treating me the same way. ive had many a friend that just happened to be a girl, but over the years, they have grown cold on me and have just shoved me away!! this doesnt mean i should go and hate the whole sex cuz of 5 or so women... i just dont like those people!!

sorry for the rant...

not that i hate all feminists, but i get sick of them calling me an "oppressive, omnipowerful pig." i am sick of them saying that i have no feelings and that i should be damned for oppressing the female sex.

That is not really feminism.

That is not really feminism.
i know... its just i overhear most of the feminists at my school talking about men that way

i know... its just i overhear most of the feminists at my school talking about men that way
Well they're not real feminists then...

And I have some trouble taking that seriously since I'm a feminist, and hang around with loads of feminists, and I've NEVER once heard anything like that...

Wrong, you're thinking about female supremacism. It's not a widely used phrase but I think it should be. Feminism is an inherently good concept which does not deserve to be associated with man-hating extremism.

The problem is that the Female supremacist (femanazis) call them selves femininst. Even tho they are not even close to being feminist.

On a technical point, I must disagree on the issue of men being raped.

It just cant happen.

For a number of reasons.

That's great. Girls are mostly predictable too. So what have we learned? Most humans are predictable.

No, most men seem to think we're either doormats or ballbreakers. thay judge us as either too klingy or to alloof. they dont think about who we are and what we might do based on what they know.

I do know some decent chaps. well 2 actually. the rest i've come across wouldnt know what to do with a woman in a mood except to put it doen to PMT. Nothing to do with them or their behaviour. NEVER!


A lot of the time it is not possible to leave your job for days on end without losing it. I'm not a parent, but I'm sure that most parent couples I know would have whichever parent who was able to stay at home, do so.

And i'm sure that in 99.9% of relationships, the man would expect the woman to take time off. HIS job would be too important to loose and he really doesnt want to clean up sick and shit. I can see the mans reasoning but when it's your child...? :confused:

I don't consider alcohol to be an excuse for any wrongdoing. I'm glad you're not trying to hide behind it "as so many men do" (as you say) - why do you have to attach an irrelevant, generalising jab at men to every point you make?

So now you're trying to claim a female monopoly on love? We men like our sex (as do women), but do you really think that we're so shallow as to be uninterested in love and intimacy?

Um... Yes. Sex is sex for men. It isnt the big deal you seem is for women. We enjoy it, dont get me wrong, but I know many women who can bring themselves to orgasm but who's partners cant or rarely do. Sex isnt important for most women. It is for most men. You also like to feel that you're bringing us to the heights of pleasure every time because it makes you feel manly to do so. You dont seem to realise we're humouring you most of the time so we dont hurt your fragile ego's.

I'm sorry that the men your friends have had experience with are bastards. It may have something to do with the fact that many (particularly younger) women are attracted to guys who are assholes.

It would be nice if you could think that wouldnt it? Unfortunatly none of the men i have dated, or my friends have dated were or seemed assholes. Many were shy, retiring. One of mine i dated for 4 yrs until money was more important then me! then he cheeted on his new girlfriend (10 yrs his junior and because she was a virgin and not ready to "give it up"). Yeah, 4 years i knew him well but sex was still more important that his new girlfriend!

*sigh* Men also feel empathy but I accept the truth that women tend to be more caring. Maybe more men would be too if this was not perceived as a "weak" trait in men.

A real man to me is someone who is his own man. Not someone who believes in what he should be, matcho, but is happy with what he is.

Oh and the bit about "Women generally don't use other people, for sex or otherwise." That's just not true. Not true at all. Many, perhaps most, women can be as ruthlessly self-interested as any man.

I dont respect many women either, as i have said before in this thread.

I'll agree with this one, but you should probably know that rapists are not triggered by lust alone, it's often due as much to their psychological problems. In light of your recent negative statements about testosterone, I should hope you don't think all men should be castrated, do you?

Rape is triggered by rage in most cases, a hatred of women. Still, if you cant get it up, you cant rape.

Really? Then please explain "your own" admitted to affair above?

It was one night, i felt lonely, unloved and shitty. I took what i thought would be comfort. it wasnt. I felt gastly, cheep, worthless, slutish and just awful.

I have never repeated a 1 night stand either in or out of a relationship and i have even turned a holiwood actor down while young free and single. This wasnt for me and never will be.

I am sorry for the hurt i caused my partner but he was so money obsessed it wouldnt have lasted anyway (i hate mean people) and i was the one to end it even thoug he knew of my affair.

Feminists are wrong. Masculists are also wrong. It is the few who realize this that are right. Aspiring to be manly is good, machismo is also a good thing, it is what makes us men not "male persons". Being effeminate is good, as is being empathetic and the other "female" traits that make them more than "female persons" and actually women to be loved and held, and occasionally, yes, sex objects. If a man finds you to be arousing, there has got to be a reason, but since he's a man it couldn't be that he loves you could it? If a man says "I love you" he's just humoring you, if a woman says "size doesn't matter to me" she's humoring you right? Well I hate to break it to all of you that sometimes we actually mean what we say, not what you think we mean, this applies to both men and women. The woman I love doesn't believe me because all of the other men she's gone out with just wanted sex, now don't get me wrong sex is a very good side benefit, but it is only a side benefit, I love her so much it hurts and she thinks I'm lying. Listen to Metallica's "nothing else matters" and you'll get the right idea.


"So close no matter how far, couldn't be much more from the heart. Forever trusting who we are, and nothing else matters. Trust I seek and I find in you, every day for us something new. Open mind for a different view and nothing else matters. I never open myself this way, life is ours we live it our way. All these words I don't just say, and nothing else matters." A beautiful song. If I am insulted I am capable of Breaking the insulter, physichally breaking them, that is the essence of being a man , be sensitive and be strong enough to take care of yourself when dealing with bigots, it is also the essence of being a woman only with a mental emphasis.

No, we have a little something called empathy. Women generally dont use other people, for sex or otherwise.

I'm not believing that part. I have seen sooooo many women use men and other women to get what they want many many many times. Men do not have the market cornered on being manipulative.

And Feminist Cat Women, from reading your post it is very clear that you are a man hating feminazi.

I am a masculist. I long for the day when men are treated as equals to women. This does not mean that I am anti-feminist. Women deserve the same treatment in the workforce and everywhere else. But I look around and see the next generation being brought up in a world where men are sexist, macho pigs who are only one short evolutionairy step away from monkeys, where you cannot show weakness or emotion. Men cannot, by definition, be in abusive relationships unless they are the abuser. They cannot be abused mentally or physically, cannot be vicitms of rape. If the men who suffer from these kinds of situations, and there are more of them than we think, if they ever came forward, they would be condemned as weak and would be dispised by society. There are few role models for young boys, and an verwhelming number of Archie Bunkers and Al Bundys. Both feminists and masculists, women and men, should strive for a day when we are equal in every way. Women and men should help each other, not push eachother apart.

What do other people think? Am I the only masculist out there? Tell me your opinions, and give us all some hope for the future.



God damn it!!! sorry about that people i was supposed to be watching him.

get back in your cage!!!

You essentially generalized all women as shallow - a sexist statement no better than me saying "All men are pigs who want nothing but sex."

No I didn't. I simply pointed out that some qualities are considered to be attractive and respectable in men. There was a time when it was thought that there was something very wrong with a woman who was independent, studious, or assertive, but no longer. Men have not benifited from a similar shift in what constitutes manliness.

Meanwhile, have you been under a rock for the past 20 years? There are all sorts of movements for men to demonstrate traits such as communications skills and empathy - as traits that *all* people should have.

People say it, but it doesn't get anything more than lip service.
There is still a widespread belief that a man is stronger if he is unwilling to listen and other such nonsense. That's a big part of what Bush implicitly campaigned on. And the backlash that exists against efforts to get men to demonstrate their "sensitive side" has made a mockery not only of the men who embraced it, but of men who simply turn their backs on the grunting football playing sort of machismo in favor of the more stoic, analytical masculinity.

There is a powerful anti-intellectual trend in the political atmosphere these days, and intellectual, sophisticated men suffer the most from it getting classified as "effete" (which I gather those people think means girly) "hoity toity" or just "wishy washy." Men without that sort of intellectual background are going to have the easiest time falling into the grunting, shoulder punching sort of manliness, and there will always be a strong impression that that's what makes a man.

There is nothing sexist about seeing that. I'm not happy about it, but I can't deny that it's happening.

No I didn't. I simply pointed out that some qualities are considered to be attractive and respectable in men. There was a time when it was thought that there was something very wrong with a woman who was independent, studious, or assertive, but no longer. Men have not benifited from a similar shift in what constitutes manliness.

So what you actually meant to say was that the majority of *society* has still not changed its view of the "correct" type of man, not that women have not "learned to love" certain types of men.

On a technical point, I must disagree on the issue of men being raped.

It just cant happen.

For a number of reasons.

Really?

So if I tie a man up against his will, gag him, then fuck him, it isn't rape?

And Feminist Cat Women, from reading your post it is very clear that you are a man hating feminazi.

I dont like the majority of you, no. Try reading some of the atrocities men do when left to their own devices. Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq waretc etc etc.

You are not a nice species.

I havent mentioned WW2 as you so kindly called me a nazi. I wouldnt have killed all men. i wouldnt even have killed most of you. I wouldnt have killed anyone except murderers therefor no nazi, no WW2, no need for the slur, thank you very much.

I may not think much of men, i may not have a high opinion of most of them, but i dont, wouldnt and would never persecute them and i think your a shit for saying i'm a nazi.

On a technical point, I must disagree on the issue of men being raped.

It just cant happen.

For a number of reasons.

It can if it is another man doing it. :p
But I fail to see how a woman could

I dont like the majority of you, no. Try reading some of the atrocities men do when left to their own devices. Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq waretc etc etc.

You are not a nice species.

I havent mentioned WW2 as you so kindly called me a nazi. I wouldnt have killed all men. i wouldnt even have killed most of you. I wouldnt have killed anyone except murderers therefor no nazi, no WW2, no need for the slur, thank you very much.

I may not think much of men, i may not have a high opinion of most of them, but i dont, wouldnt and would never persecute them and i think your a shit for saying i'm a nazi.

You are just a stupid man hating feminazi!!!
Nothing more need be said

Really?

So if I tie a man up against his will, gag him, then fuck him, it isn't rape?

But if a man does not want to have sex he goes limp. He has to want it to get it up. If he cant get it up how can a woman force it to?

It can if it is another man doing it. :p
But I fail to see how a woman could

Well, I could tie him up against his will, gag him, and jump on.

Now, an erection does not equal consent, but if he wasn't getting one, I could pop him a Viagra and keep trying. Eventually, the body would probably give in - still doesn't imply consent.

Of course, I could also just get him drunk as hell, so that he is past the point of consent, and then sleep with him - that would also be rape.

But if a man does not want to have sex he goes limp. He has to want it to get it up. If he cant get it up how can a woman force it to?

An erection does not imply consent to sex.

If I get naked in front of a man - he will probably get an erection - doesn't mean he has consented to have sex with me any more than me getting wet when I kiss a guy means that I want to have sex with him.

Meanwhile, not all guys automatically go limp when they want to.

Well, I could tie him up against his will, gag him, and jump on.

Now, an erection does not equal consent, but if he wasn't getting one, I could pop him a Viagra and keep trying. Eventually, the body would probably give in - still doesn't imply consent.

Of course, I could also just get him drunk as hell, so that he is past the point of consent, and then sleep with him - that would also be rape.

you have a point. I never though about those methods.

you have a point. I never though about those methods.

Sorry I got so emphatic about it - I just think that the implication that a man cannot be raped is one of the biggest examples of a lack of equity in our perception of gender roles.

Originally Posted by New Granada
On a technical point, I must disagree on the issue of men being raped.

It just cant happen.

For a number of reasons.

A man can rape another man.

It's harder for a woman due to having to overpower said man but possible with the use of impliments and drugs.

Men can be raped, but are less likley to be because:-

1) only and estimated 5% of the population are gay. straight men dont rape men.

and

2) Men can fight back against a woman

and

3) Most rapists are cowards picking on the weak like bullies.

I dont like the majority of you, no. Try reading some of the atrocities men do when left to their own devices. Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq waretc etc etc.

You are not a nice species.

I havent mentioned WW2 as you so kindly called me a nazi. I wouldnt have killed all men. i wouldnt even have killed most of you. I wouldnt have killed anyone except murderers therefor no nazi, no WW2, no need for the slur, thank you very much.

I may not think much of men, i may not have a high opinion of most of them, but i dont, wouldnt and would never persecute them and i think your a shit for saying i'm a nazi.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OW I POPPED A LUNG!!!!!

straight men dont rape men.

This is untrue. Rape is not about sexuality - but about power. This is why men who are not attracted to other men quite often rape men in situations such as imprisonment.

You are just a stupid man hating feminazi!!!
Nothing more need be said

I do SO love your well thought out replies.

This is untrue. Rape is not about sexuality - but about power. This is why men who are not attracted to other men quite often rape men in situations such as imprisonment.

In a single sex inviroment, yes. Friction and power is everything.

On the street, with open access to women, straight men dont rape men.

I agree with you. I think it would benefit the human race if instead of looking at things as this way or that, based on sex, age, class, etc. we really looked at what is best (and worst) for the individual.

I can't let go the notion that somehow women have progressed at the expense of men. this isn't a zero sum game. to liberate one person does not automatically enslave the other, in fact, I think the opposite is true.

I wish I could say more, but I'm running on reserve power!

In a single sex inviroment, yes. Friction and power is everything.

On the street, with open access to women, straight men dont rape men.

Still not necessarily true. The act of rape, itself, is about power - there is no reason to think that sexuality has anything to do with it.

Shhh don't argue with the Feminazi, she knows what she knows, don't confuse her with the facts.

Give me facts to disprove your case for straight men raping other men outside of the prison enviroment.

Or else shut up.

I have never heard of a heterosexual man raping other men outside of prison.

I am willing to be proved wrong.

PS. hammers slammers? what an enlightened name you have. Maybe you've been in the slammer? is that it?

I am a masculist.

You should stop that immediately before you go blind and your palms get all hairy.

You are not a nice species.

Men are not a species; men are a sex. You belong to the same species, homo sapiens as your counterparts with penises.

Men are not a species; men are a sex. You belong to the same species, homo sapiens sapiens as your counterparts with penises.
homo sapiens sapiens? theres one genus but two species names there.

Oops. Thanks for catching that. I got sidetracked while typing and I guess I "mentally hiccupped" or whatever would be the proper term for backtracking in a thought and doing the same thing over again.

Men are not a species; men are a sex. You belong to the same species, homo sapiens sapiens as your counterparts with penises.

I'm sorry, i tend to viev men as another species because they are so different.

i know scientifically they are Homosapiens.

However. my little girl dog is happy to please, intelligent and obedient. My little boy dog is far more interested in other dogs pee to be obedient (not to mention a little bit dim but he was foind in a bin).

Much as i wouldnt call Lucy a dog, I wouldnt call men a woman. Women are very different to men and i view then as a different species who come together from time to time to satisfy urges.

Not scientific but my POV which i an intitled to.

Mother's coughing badly (is that a word?) so have to go and i had other people to reply to. :(

Hammers Slammers, David Drakes "The Tank Lords" series' main characters, Colonel Hammer and his battalion, I love the books, and in the books they found a nation so I figured "what the hey?" You are bigoted and sexist, you, sir, are no lady.

Almost forgot, it really is Homo Sapiens Sapiens. I don't remember why there's two but I rember that my biology teacher corrected me on that once.

Shhh don't argue with the Feminazi, she knows what she knows, don't confuse her with the facts.
I have vowed that the first person to call me a feminazi gets a slap across the face. :)

Give me facts to disprove your case for straight men raping other men outside of the prison enviroment.

I really don't have time to seach case law or psychology books for you, but there have been cases in which this occurred. It is a well-known psychological premise that rape is about power, not sex.

Meanwhile, straight men who are pedophiles sometimes rape little boys. That doesn't make them homosexual - it makes them pedophiles.

I have never heard of a heterosexual man raping other men outside of prison.

You haven't studied the issue much.

homo sapiens sapiens? theres one genus but two species names there.

It ishomo sapiens sapiens, neaderthals are homo sapiens neanderthalis. Carry on.

I have vowed that the first person to call me a feminazi gets a slap across the face. :)


Are you a feminazi? Do you hate men? If you do you are a feminazi.

I do know some decent chaps. well 2 actually. the rest i've come across wouldnt know what to do with a woman in a mood except to put it doen to PMT. Nothing to do with them or their behaviour. NEVER!
With all the generalising you've been doing about testosterone-addled men, your hypocrisy is startling.

And i'm sure that in 99.9% of relationships, the man would expect the woman to take time off. HIS job would be too important to loose and he really doesnt want to clean up sick and shit. I can see the mans reasoning but when it's your child...?
It really depends on what the jobs are. If the woman is a lawyer but her husband works in McDonalds, i doubt anyone would say that his job is more important just because he is a man.

Um... Yes. Sex is sex for men. It isnt the big deal you seem is for women. We enjoy it, dont get me wrong, but I know many women who can bring themselves to orgasm but who's partners cant or rarely do.

Sex isnt important for most women. It is for most men. You also like to feel that you're bringing us to the heights of pleasure every time because it makes you feel manly to do so. You dont seem to realise we're humouring you most of the time so we dont hurt your fragile ego's.

Ummm... sex is defintely an emotional thing for men, it's just that society doesn't acknowledge this.

Sex is important for most women. At least most of them who I know. Sex is important for most humans, and there's a pretty good reason for that. To "bring [a woman] to the heights of pleasure" is not only about feeling manly, to satisfy a woman brings a beautiful emotional high also. I would like you to explain your statement that women are faking it (or "humouring" however you want to put it) most of the time. The idea that men never get hurt feelings, only bruised egos is an unfair, hurtful myth.

It ishomo sapiens sapiens, neaderthals are homo sapiens neanderthalis. Carry on.

Huh, what do you know...I was right by accident. Would it be wrong of me to feel proud about it?

no.

I dont like the majority of you, no. Try reading some of the atrocities men do when left to their own devices. Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq waretc etc etc.

You are not a nice species.
This is just pitiful. Vietnam and Iraq don't represent men "left to their own devices". In fact, the opposite. One of the leading war hawks in America today is Condoleeza Rice -yes OMG! - a woman!

And who are most of the major figures in the anti-war movement? That's right! Men!

To lay the blame for the evil acts of warmongering bureaucrats on men as a hole is not only unfair and demagogic, but extremely immature.

I'm sorry, i tend to viev men as another species because they are so different.

Much as i wouldnt call Lucy a dog, I wouldnt call men a woman. Women are very different to men and i view then as a different species who come together from time to time to satisfy urges.

Not scientific but my POV which i an intitled to.

Mother's coughing badly (is that a word?) so have to go and i had other people to reply to. :(
Men aren't "so different" from women. I find that I have more in common with women than with dogs for example. I can converse with them for a start.

They cannot be called different species, and more connects men and women than sexual urges. I take it you have no male friends at all, then?

I have vowed that the first person to call me a feminazi gets a slap across the face. :)
Well you aren't one, so don't worry!

no.

Sweet.

I was right! I rule! Hoody-hoo!

Ok, I feel better now.

Hmm, perhaps I shouldn't do that...I'm only showing that overwhelming competative spirit that makes my "species" so brutal, stupid, and offensive to women.

Go Competition, it's what makes you a man, just don't overdo it.

But if a man does not want to have sex he goes limp. He has to want it to get it up. If he cant get it up how can a woman force it to?

Wrong. Being a man I can most certainly assure you that erection does NOT equate to a desire to have sex. Almost half the time a erection occurs it simply occurs, men are simply spoonfed by media to belief this immidiatly means they want sex. Trust me if you in a situation where your being forced as a men into sex don't be surprised if you want nothing of it yet you still have a erection.

It's your subconscious and biology at work. And if you say that this means that men do want that sex then remember that many women who are raped do get orgasms during the procedure and each and everyone of them can tell you they never wanted it to happen.

Now on the maincourse of the topic: femininty and masculinity are both good. I really don't have anything more to say on it since for the most part one's perspective is determined by your own life experiences and the people that you hang out with and if a anonymous person behind a computer can change your mind of point of view then they have to be damn good at what they do. And I am not one of those.

Continue on; I shall keep reading since the topic is surprisingly friendly for it's discussion matter.

I am.

It ishomo sapiens sapiens, neaderthals are homo sapiens neanderthalis. Carry on.
sry... thought it was typo....

Now on the maincourse of the topic: femininty and masculinity are both good.

I would add that both are good and have their ups and downs - but neither is actually tied to a specific biologic sex, nor should it be. A person can naturally be feminine or masculine, regardless of whether they have a penis, a vagina, or something more ambiguous. A person can naturally be feminine or masculine, regardless if they are XX, XY, XO, XXY, or some combination.

I've read some feminist literature (The Colour Purple by Alice Walker, Oranges are Not the Only Fruit by Jeanette Wilson and The Handmaids Tale by Margaret Atwood) and in each one of those, men are all described as being effectively destructive pigs. Its not men with the stereotyping problem - its women. In Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit especially there are no male characters and men are decribed as the destroyers and those who want to destroy. How stereotyped is that? At least in The Colour Purple men are offered some hope of redemption.

Women seem to forget when, drivelling on about how perfect they are, that they are human beings too who are just as susceptible to greed, stupidity and evil as men are. For every Macbeth there is a Lady Macbeth. The world would be no better with women in charge because women would make the same mistakes as men do.

I've read some feminist literature (The Colour Purple by Alice Walker, Oranges are Not the Only Fruit by Jeanette Wilson and The Handmaids Tale by Margaret Atwood) and in each one of those, men are all described as being effectively destructive pigs. Its not men with the stereotyping problem - its women. In Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit especially there are no male characters and men are decribed as the destroyers and those who want to destroy. How stereotyped is that? At least in The Colour Purple men are offered some hope of redemption.

Women seem to forget when, drivelling on about how perfect they are, that they are human beings too who are just as susceptible to greed, stupidity and evil as men are. For every Macbeth there is a Lady Macbeth. The world would be no better with women in charge because women would make the same mistakes as men do.

yay, smart people.

Are you a feminazi? Do you hate men? If you do you are a feminazi.
Yeah, I'd call myself a feminazi. :rolleyes:
I'm a feminist.
I don't hate men, but no real feminists do.


You have such a warped view of feminism...

Yeah I really hate that term "feminazi", mainly because of the idiot who invented the term.

Yeah, I'd call myself a feminazi. :rolleyes:
I'm a feminist.
I don't hate men, but no real feminists do.


You have such a warped view of feminism...


Not feminism, I agree most feminists don't hate men, but FEMINAZI's do, there's a difference of facts but they still call themselves feminists.

I've read some feminist literature (The Colour Purple by Alice Walker, Oranges are Not the Only Fruit by Jeanette Wilson and The Handmaids Tale by Margaret Atwood) and in each one of those, men are all described as being effectively destructive pigs.

That's your interpretation, having studied The Handmaids Tale I'd completely disagree with you.

This is all such a non-argument. Men are still the dominant sex in Western society; they earn more money, hold the majority of influential positions, have more opportunities, etc.

This is coming from a feminist bloke. The reactionaries who are so scared of feminism clearly lack self-confidence. Why else would they get so worked up about something that basically just demands justice and equality?

In-fact, to go into more detail, in 'The Handmaids Tale' Margaret Attwood can be seen to criticise ultra-feminists - so I don't see how that backs up your argument at all. Her portrayal of men is far more complicated that your simplistic description. Some are good, some are bad; just like some women are good while others are bad. If anything 'The Handmaids Tale' can be seen as warning against all extremism, whether feminist or Christian fudamentalist.

That's your interpretation, having studied The Handmaids Tale I'd completely disagree with you.

This is all such a non-argument. Men are still the dominant sex in Western society; they earn more money, hold the majority of influential positions, have more opportunities, etc.

This is coming from a feminist bloke. The reactionaries who are so scared of feminism clearly lack self-confidence. Why else would they get so worked up about something that basically just demands justice and equality?


Equality is unnecessary, what is necessary is EQUITY, that means you get what you deserve, I get what I deserve, and everybody else does the same. Equality is inherently unequal, by making a person equal to everyone else people of higher skill are forced to operate below their capabilities to avoid being unequal. Equality is a nightmare that would turn us into a socialist state intead of a free market democracy.

Equality is unnecessary, what is necessary is EQUITY, that means you get what you deserve, I get what I deserve, and everybody else does the same. Equality is inherently unequal, by making a person equal to everyone else people of higher skill are forced to operate below their capabilities to avoid being unequal. Equality is a nightmare that would turn us into a socialist state intead of a free market democracy.

Unfortunately yours is a view shared by enough people to mean that we still live in a world full of poverty,oppression and injustice. Hope that makes you happy :)

You state that men are not allowed to be seen as emotional and are forced to take certain positions within our society, but i am a women and are constantly called 'blokey' because i like football! And i can asure im not like this at all but women are 'supposed' to like football and so we are taunted for it, just as men are expected to not be overly emotional. The ironic thing is, i'm taunted by the men you say are emotional! It is these men who give you a bad name and these men who need to change what their idea of being a man is for everyone to be equal. Although, do not mistake my intentions, i agree that men and women should be allowed toa ct in the wya they want to, rather tahn the roles expected of them.

Until these stereotypes and social postions alter nobody can be entirely equal.

You state that men are not allowed to be seen as emotional and are forced to take certain positions within our society, but i am a women and are constantly called 'blokey' because i like football! And i can asure im not like this at all but women are 'supposed' to like football and so we are taunted for it, just as men are expected to not be overly emotional. The ironic thing is, i'm taunted by the men you say are emotional! It is these men who give you a bad name and these men who need to change what their idea of being a man is for everyone to be equal. Although, do not mistake my intentions, i agree that men and women should be allowed toa ct in the wya they want to, rather tahn the roles expected of them.

Until these stereotypes and social postions alter nobody can be entirely equal.

Exactly - feminism is just part of a wider liberation struggle from all these oppressive stereotypes that afflict all of us. Anyone who claims not have felt social pressure to act or feel a certain way because of his/her sex is a liar.

That's your interpretation, having studied The Handmaids Tale I'd completely disagree with you.

This is all such a non-argument. Men are still the dominant sex in Western society; they earn more money, hold the majority of influential positions, have more opportunities, etc.

This is coming from a feminist bloke. The reactionaries who are so scared of feminism clearly lack self-confidence. Why else would they get so worked up about something that basically just demands justice and equality?

Maybe when women dont stereotype men as rapists, pigs and idiots who let their gentiles control their lives, then maybe I shall be satisfied with the current concepts of sexism and gender equality.

In-fact, to go into more detail, in 'The Handmaids Tale' Margaret Attwood can be seen to criticise ultra-feminists - so I don't see how that backs up your argument at all. Her portrayal of men is far more complicated that your simplistic description. Some are good, some are bad; just like some women are good while others are bad. If anything 'The Handmaids Tale' can be seen as warning against all extremism, whether feminist or Christian fudamentalist.

It depicts men as a group as bad. Some individuals are selected to receive nice characteristics but thats done for the same reason most modern film makers try to give Hitler some humanity.

Maybe when women dont stereotype men as rapists, pigs and idiots who let their gentiles control their lives, then maybe I shall be satisfied with the current concepts of sexism and gender equality.

Please think about your position. You're basically saying you don't believe women deserve equality with men because you disagree with the rantings of a tiny minority of extremist feminists. It's like someone saying in the 1960s black civil rights should have been opposed just because of the wild views of some black activists, i.e the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers.

It depicts men as a group as bad. Some individuals are selected to receive nice characteristics but thats done for the same reason most modern film makers try to give Hitler some humanity.

No, it doesn't at all. There is no "men's group", just as there is no "women's group". One of the prime architects of the authoritarian distopia of Gilead is Serena Joy, the wife of the Commander. Incase you still haven't got my point...that character is a woman.

Dont get me wrong, i have little respect for many women, but they at least they are ruled by their hearts, not their clitorus.

Whoah, what planet are you from?

Please think about your position. You're basically saying you don't believe women deserve equality with men because you disagree with the rantings of a tiny minority of extremist feminists. It's like someone saying in the 1960s black civil rights should have been opposed just because of the wild views of some black activists, i.e the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers.

No I am not saying that and dont twiat words like that. I am saying that there is no way gender equality can be claimed when men suffer from so much stereotyping from women and the media.

Women deserve equal rights and the right not to be stereotyped. I do not nor have ever disputed this fact. My argument is that perhaps men deserve not to be stereotyped in the same way.

I dont like the majority of you, no. Try reading some of the atrocities men do when left to their own devices. Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq waretc etc etc.


At least someone has to do the dirty work. And besides only someone who has been there can judge if it can be justified. Were you there ? No.

No, i don't think you're a feminazi.

Whoa, this is a long thread, and I've tried to skin it, but if I've missed something and end up sounding really dumb (it happens alot, I know), I'm sorry.
I kind of agree - in today's society, men have alot of pressures which stereotypically are only related to women, and this hasn't been broken yet.
I'm not a feminist. I think we should have equal rights (e.g. voting, progression in the workplace - I want to go into law and it's still largely full of macho pigs who don't like women progressing, so that's gonna be tough), but there are always going to be differences. Women are always going to be the ones who give birth (if they choose to), and that's obviously going to make a difference. So some women have to make up their minds - do they want to be strong and independant, the dominant one with no difference between you and your partner (if your partner is male, I mean), or do you want the man to hold out chairs and pay the bill? I'm not saying you can't have a little of each.. I'm trying to make a point about compromise, and what happens in some extreme situations. I'm just doing it really badly. But girls, sooner or later, men are gonna catch on the fact that they're getting a bum rap atm.
So, in conclusion... equal rights, yeah! *thumbs up* [But not to the extent of being really dumb in an attempt to be PC, and cutting off men's balls].

At least someone has to do the dirty work. And besides only someone who has been there can judge if it can be justified. Were you there ? No.

I appriceate men going to war on my behalf (when it truly is on my or my countries behalf, that is). I do not appriceate women and children being raped and murdered. The murder doesnt happen so often these days but the rapes do. try reading some war literature, rape cant be justified. Thats what i mena by men in a single sex inviorment, you pick on weak little women and girls.

In fact there is a BBC study of men in a prison where the public were either guards or prisoners (no one was a criminal, it just simulated the enviroment). The "guards" were SO brutal it wasnt allowed to be shown on TV for over 40 yrs.

Yeah, men are great :rolleyes:

Whoah, what planet are you from?

United Kingdom, Earth. OK?

In fact there is a BBC study of men in a prison where the public were either guards or prisoners (no one was a criminal, it just simulated the enviroment). The "guards" were SO brutal it wasnt allowed to be shown on TV for over 40 yrs.

Yeah, men are great :rolleyes:
I'm not saying particularly that this is what you're doing, but not all men should be judged by what a few individuals do. Believe me, I know there are some dickheads out there (I've had some really bad experiences that I won't go into), and for a while I had a really negative outlook on men. But then I reopened my mind, and have found that there are some really great men out there. In fact, most men are really great. I love men. They're amazing.
If all women were judged by our lowest specimins, then... whoa, well, let's not even go there, it's very unpleasant.
Edit: going to bed now, so any flaming will fall on deaf ears... blind eyes... whatever, I won't be here :D

try reading some war literature
Yeah, men are great :rolleyes:

fyi, i happen to know a lot about ww2. i read a lot about war.

+

not all men are great, i agree. but saying all men are equally worthless is bs. btw who the hell decided woman are so great and innocent ?

United Kingdom, Earth. OK?
Yeah they are ruled by their heart rather then mind ... who is to say what is better :p (seriously we can go about this sterotyping all day will it really make us feel any better or resolve anything?)

I have said it before in thsi thread and now i'll say it again. I also dont think much of many women.

However, this is a thread about masculis. NOT feminism.

If i dont have a good view of men, it's because of what i read.

In war you rape, you pillage, you are basically not nice.

At home a woman is 4 times out of 5 killed by someone she knows, usually her partner or ex partner (uk Stats)

Children are most likley to be abused by a male relative.

Yes, we women can be evil, crule and nasty sometimes, but thestatistics show that men do the most damage.

And Eurotrash Smoke, Have you ever read any european women's books/accounts on WW 1, 2 and the other european wars? it's their stories that tell the horror, not the returning "heros".

I have said it before in thsi thread and now i'll say it again. I also dont think much of many women.

However, this is a thread about masculis. NOT feminism.

If i dont have a good view of men, it's because of what i read.

In war you rape, you pillage, you are basically not nice.

At home a woman is 4 times out of 5 killed by someone she knows, usually her partner or ex partner (uk Stats)

Children are most likley to be abused by a male relative.

Yes, we women can be evil, crule and nasty sometimes, but thestatistics show that men do the most damage.

And Eurotrash Smoke, Have you ever read any european women's books/accounts on WW 1, 2 and the other european wars? it's their stories that tell the horror, not the returning "heros".


Ohhh statistics! I am a stats major ... I would love to see some of these statistics! (sorry but always intrested by statistical studies)

My stats come from the Daily Mail. try their site for references. MORI is also a good organisation for UK stats.

I think this is ridiculous. There are inequalities that can never be treated as equalities.

And Eurotrash Smoke, Have you ever read any european women's books/accounts on WW 1, 2 and the other european wars? it's their stories that tell the horror, not the returning "heros".

Yes, i have but only about things that happend in my country alone. There is no excuse for these things, i agree. But don't forget, without the returning "heros" these things could have lasted longer.

In fact there is a BBC study of men in a prison where the public were either guards or prisoners (no one was a criminal, it just simulated the enviroment). The "guards" were SO brutal it wasnt allowed to be shown on TV for over 40 yrs.

Yeah, men are great :rolleyes:

Please, read up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment) on the Stanford prison experiment (I assume that's what you're talking about) a little.

And I'm pretty sure it wasn't a BBC study. Are you sure you haven't got it mixed up with the recent BBC remake of the experiment, which was done in the last couple of years? In that particular case, the prisoners escaped and just wandered about doing what they liked. It also had to be stopped, as the guards had completely lost their authority.

If i dont have a good view of men, it's because of what i read.
Will you ever be able to get over yourself and realise that you can't judge the majority of men by the actions of a minority?

That is why I continually argue with you. I started posting reactions to your posts in an attempt to combat against stereotyping and oversimplification which are rampant in your posts.

And would you mind responding to my post #116? Unless you've conceded the point to me.

Men are constantly the subject of negative stereotypes in movies and on TV. The image of a strong father is rare. Usually the father is absent, and if not he is usually a goof or a milquetoast. Negative stereotypes of women and minorities are bad, but it is ok to stereotype men?

Women talk about equality in work and pay, but how often do you see women garbage collectors, or firefighters, or other dangerous jobs? How much more time do women miss from work due to illnesses and children?

Women want to be seen as equals, but are still willing to play the weak victim to get what they want from men.

In reference to men vs. women having affairs, I have never cheated on anyone. I have been cheated on by more than one woman.

Men are given mixed messages from the time they are young to the time they grow old and die (earlier than women usually). A woman expects her man to be a provider, but gets upset when he spends too much time at work. From an early age, men are encouraged to "not be a sissy" when they get upset. They are encouraged to repress emotions, until they get involved in a relationship and they are found to be cold and distant.

Men are not given the luxury of having close male friends. One reason is they are encouraged to be competitive, and they do not want to seem vulnerable to their competition. Also, if men get too close, people begin to suspect that they are gay. Women do not have to worry about that. Finally, when a married man does have close friends, frequently the wife will try to discourage if, and the man will feel guilty for not spending time with his wife.

Men are more often the victims of crimes, have a higer rate of suicide, and more frequently suffer health problems such as heart disease.

This is horribly unorganized, but I had a lot to get out here. There's more, but that's enough for now.

I find it interesting that in this thread only one poster has admitted to having cheated on a partner, and that she happens to be the only one who has generalised all people of a sex (men) to be sex-crazed, chronic cheaters.

I find it interesting that in this thread only one poster has admitted to having cheated on a partner, and that she happens to be the only one who has generalised all people of a sex (men) to be sex-crazed, chronic cheaters.
Yeah, women cheat just as often as men. It's just that some of us get unlucky and every partner we've ever had (except 1) have cheated on us. I think women would more readily tell people that a male cheated on them than men would say that a woman cheated on them, if that makes sense - and a myth is born.

I have zero respect for feminists, in my experience most of them seem to think that men should start acting like complete eunuchs.

To add to my previous post, I have respect for the idea of feminism and women's lib (though not when it is reduced to male-bashing, which some feminists do). They were held back in the past, and I do not make light of that fact.

I do believe changes have been made, and many more will come in time. The nature of the workplace is changing to reflect more people born after the women's lib (as well as civil rights) movements began. I think a lot of the attitudes of racism and sexism will disappear over time as more people who were raised in a culture of equality come to work and more of those who were raised in a culture of accepted sexism and racism retire and move on. Old attitudes are difficult to change, but many new ones are being brought in.

I have zero respect for feminists, in my experience most of them seem to think that men should start acting like complete eunuchs.

Don't you have any respect for people such as the suffragettes who often gave their lives for the cause of womens' emancipation??

From reading this thread it is so obvious that extremist feminist views harm feminism by scaring the sh*t out of everybody, basically! Feminism is wrongly associated by average Joe with the type of people who believe all male-female sex is rape. Infact not only does average Joe not think much of that, I'm pretty sure his girlfriend won't either.....

To add to my previous post, I have respect for the idea of feminism and women's lib (though not when it is reduced to male-bashing, which some feminists do). They were held back in the past, and I do not make light of that fact.

I do believe changes have been made, and many more will come in time. .

One of the other points in The Handmaids Tale, as we were discussing earlier, is that people should not assume that all progress is irreversible. Yes, great strides towards equality have been made over the last century. But at the same time there are always those who would want to reppeal womens' rights, often under the guise of claiming that "feminism has gone too far" or some rubbish like that. Those of us who believe in equality and decency must always be vigilant about the risk of reactionaries not only stopping progress but actually making society regress.

One of the other points in The Handmaids Tale, as we were discussing earlier, is that people should not assume that all progress is irreversible. Yes, great strides towards equality have been made over the last century. But at the same time there are always those who would want to reppeal womens' rights, often under the guise of claiming that "feminism has gone too far" or some rubbish like that. Those of us who believe in equality and decency must always be vigilant about the risk of reactionaries not only stopping progress but actually making society regress.

I was not trying to imply that everything was locked up. I was just trying to say that I belive in the next few decades we will really start to see huge changes that will be the results of the work that has been done.

By the same token, we need to be vigilant that we do not create new inequalities in our pursuit of equality. Quite simply, equality includes everyone, or it is not truly equality.

Men are constantly the subject of negative stereotypes in movies and on TV. The image of a strong father is rare. Usually the father is absent, and if not he is usually a goof or a milquetoast. Negative stereotypes of women and minorities are bad, but it is ok to stereotype men?
And the women aren't stereotyped as well?

Let's look at some examples.

Everybody loves Raymond: Well, first of all, it's written by a man who chooses to portray himself as bumbling. He does have many moments where he fixes the problems his family has and often shows that he is a good father, husband and provider. Debrah is usually portrayed as uptight, a wet blanket and a nag.

The Simpsons: Yes, Homer is an idiot most of the time, but well, first off, every character on that show is a characature. Secondly, again, he does tend to come through for his kids and family when they need him. And once again, the wife is a nagging wet blanket.

Full House: The dad's a positive role model who is kinda uptight, one uncle's a goof and the other's a "bad-ass" lacking a mother in the story... plenty of positive male role models though.

Malcom in the Middle: Father may be a bit bumbling at times, but means well. The mother is a bitch most of the time... actually I can't think of when she has ever had a tender moment with anyone on that show.

Uh yeah, I can't think of a single sitcom where the father is absent and the kids are beaing raised by their mother... I also can't think of an example where the wife in a sitcom is not portrayed as a nag. So umm... who's being stereotyped negatively?

Women talk about equality in work and pay, but how often do you see women garbage collectors, or firefighters, or other dangerous jobs? How much more time do women miss from work due to illnesses and children?
I think the fire fighter discussion has come up... I don't see how colecting the trash is a dangerous job. Smelly and undesireable perhaps.
And if they start getting paternal leave in, then perhaps men will be taking time off to bond with their infants as well. Something they probably should do.

Women want to be seen as equals, but are still willing to play the weak victim to get what they want from men.
Stereotype alert!

In reference to men vs. women having affairs, I have never cheated on anyone. I have been cheated on by more than one woman.
Yeah, I've never cheated on anyone, but I've been cheated on by one guy and possibly two... the second guy never admitted it though.

Men are given mixed messages from the time they are young to the time they grow old and die (earlier than women usually). A woman expects her man to be a provider, but gets upset when he spends too much time at work. From an early age, men are encouraged to "not be a sissy" when they get upset. They are encouraged to repress emotions, until they get involved in a relationship and they are found to be cold and distant.
Lol.
Yes, and women aren't given mixed messages too?

We've got magazines focused at teens that tell us to be proud of who we are, yet offer pages and pages of weight loss tips and show nothing but skinny models.
We're told we can do anything we want with our lifes, be a doctor, be a lawyer, get rich, get famous, whatever... yet are considered failures if we aren't married by 30 and popping out babies.
We're told we can do anything, but that we suck at math.

Men are not given the luxury of having close male friends.
Now this is bullshit.
All my male friends have close male friends. I don't have a single close female friend.

One reason is they are encouraged to be competitive, and they do not want to seem vulnerable to their competition. Also, if men get too close, people begin to suspect that they are gay. Women do not have to worry about that. Finally, when a married man does have close friends, frequently the wife will try to discourage if, and the man will feel guilty for not spending time with his wife.
Uh huh... so basically you're saying that you don't want to look gay in front of the guys, so you keep them at a distance. And it's society's fault that you can't set aside these stupid stereotypes and live your own damn life for yourself?

Men are more often the victims of crimes, have a higer rate of suicide, and more frequently suffer health problems such as heart disease.
I don't know about the first one... but women attempt suicide more often, if it makes you feel any better, we just aren't as efficient at offing ourselves, or cry out for help more often... and the reason men are more suseptible to heart disease is hormonal: estrogen protects the heart. Eat some tofu or other soy products, it simulates estrogen, it's likely that this is why the risk of heart disease is lower in asian countries where soy is more often consumed.

Maybe when women dont stereotype men as rapists, pigs and idiots who let their gentiles control their lives, then maybe I shall be satisfied with the current concepts of sexism and gender equality.
Huh. Maybe we don't?

Perhaps if men stoppped stereotyping every woman who expects equal pay for equal work as a man hating lesbian, then I'll be content witholding the asskickings you so rightly deserve.

Uh huh... so basically you're saying that you don't want to look gay in front of the guys, so you keep them at a distance. And it's society's fault that you can't set aside these stupid stereotypes and live your own damn life for yourself?
He has a point here. If guys went about their friendships with the uninhibited intimacy, and physical contact that is common in female friendships, everyone would assume that they were gay.

He has a point here. If guys went about their friendships with the uninhibited intimacy, and physical contact that is common in female friendships, everyone would assume that they were gay.
What physical contact common in female relationships?

Have you been watching too much television?

I don't ever see female friends engaging in physical contact... I don't ever engage in physical contact with my female friends.

He has a point here. If guys went about their friendships with the uninhibited intimacy, and physical contact that is common in female friendships, everyone would assume that they were gay.

Why should it be an issue? "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees" etc. Who cares what other people think?

I'm a vegetarian, and I've put up with years of sh*t. People think vegetarianism is somehow feminine, mainly because it shows caring and compassion. These ignorant attitudes have to be challenged!

Why should it be an issue? "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees" etc. Who cares what other people think?

I'm a vegetarian, and I've put up with years of sh*t. People think vegetarianism is somehow feminine, mainly because it shows caring and compassion. These ignorant attitudes have to be challenged!

Vegetarianism shows ignorance, of your nature, your genetics, your instincts. The food chain should be obeyed.

Vegetarianism shows ignorance, of your nature, your genetics, your instincts. The food chain should be obeyed.
Your ignorance is showing.

Vegetarianism shows ignorance, of your nature, your genetics, your instincts. The food chain should be obeyed.

See what I mean?!

I agree The Mighty Khan. I have always treated women as equals and will always do so. I have never had a problem with women in the work place. I think the only rather intimidating thing is the whole sexual harassment thing. The fact that it only takes one false remark to have a lawsuit come down on you. When I was in highschool I had a girl whom apparently was pissed at me had claimed that I had shown my penis to her in a classroom. First off, I was in no way interested in this girl. Secondly there was another girl in the room whom was in the room whom took my side. Now, with this girl had gotten the police and her parents involved. I had no idea that a accusation had been drawn at me until I was called to the office and given a gistapo style interogation about what happened in the room. There I was given a choice. Admit to it and be suspended for three days, or, not admit to it and be expelled from school. I point blank told them to shove it. I went to class and later that day was suspended from school for three days. Nothing elce came from this aside from a few days out of school. I am just using that as a example why some men just don't want women at works and such. Even though it was a terrible experience I have not let this taint my treatment to others.

What physical contact common in female relationships?

Have you been watching too much television?

I don't ever see female friends engaging in physical contact... I don't ever engage in physical contact with my female friends.
I don't watch TV. I'm going by what I see in real life. Don't tell me that you've never seen two female friends going around holding hands.

Why should it be an issue? "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees" etc. Who cares what other people think?

I'm a vegetarian, and I've put up with years of sh*t. People think vegetarianism is somehow feminine, mainly because it shows caring and compassion. These ignorant attitudes have to be challenged!
"Who cares what other people think?" well fact is, most people do. We're talking about societal attitudes that have yet to change. For example as you say, society has yet to accept that being caring and compassionate doesn't make you less manly.

I agree, there's nothing wrong with vegetarianism.

I don't watch TV. I'm going by what I see in real life. Don't tell me that you've never seen two female friends going around holding hands.
The only time I've seen girls holding hands and say, laying on each other in public is a pair of girls who actually were lesbians and were dating at the time. And my old roommates would be each other's "lesbian girlfriend" at bars when they'd get hit on by guys they weren't interested in. They would get the other over, receive a peck on the cheek and walk off holding hands... but that hardly counts, as the purpose of that is to give the impression of being lesbians...

I've never seen girls who are just friends hold hands while casually walking in public.

Hell, the most contact I can think of is hugs and shoulders to cry on (literally) or a peck on the cheek upon goodbyes between any girls.

Unless you count say, taking tape off someone's ass (if they sat on it... it happens) as physical contact or something stupid like that.

I've never seen girls who are just friends hold hands.

Well I frequently do. I think it's good and I wish that this attitude that it's "gay" for guys to do it would just disappear.

And the women aren't stereotyped as well?

Let's look at some examples.

Everybody loves Raymond: Well, first of all, it's written by a man who chooses to portray himself as bumbling. He does have many moments where he fixes the problems his family has and often shows that he is a good father, husband and provider. Debrah is usually portrayed as uptight, a wet blanket and a nag.

The Simpsons: Yes, Homer is an idiot most of the time, but well, first off, every character on that show is a characature. Secondly, again, he does tend to come through for his kids and family when they need him. And once again, the wife is a nagging wet blanket.

Full House: The dad's a positive role model who is kinda uptight, one uncle's a goof and the other's a "bad-ass" lacking a mother in the story... plenty of positive male role models though.

Malcom in the Middle: Father may be a bit bumbling at times, but means well. The mother is a bitch most of the time... actually I can't think of when she has ever had a tender moment with anyone on that show.

Uh yeah, I can't think of a single sitcom where the father is absent and the kids are beaing raised by their mother... I also can't think of an example where the wife in a sitcom is not portrayed as a nag. So umm... who's being stereotyped negatively?

Grace under Fire? Single mom raising her kid? Father is a dead-beat?
Murphy Brown certainly had a very strong female lead.
Roseanne.
And While the mother in Malcom in the Middle is protrayed as a nag she is also protrayed as a strong lead who is the actual discpline and main figure in the family. Indeed she occupies the traditional role of the.. hmm, Father Figure.
Tool Time? Dad is a fool. Mother is virtually always right?


I think the fire fighter discussion has come up... I don't see how colecting the trash is a dangerous job. Smelly and undesireable perhaps.
And if they start getting paternal leave in, then perhaps men will be taking time off to bond with their infants as well. Something they probably should do.

Men do bond with their childern. Different parents have different roles. I don't particulary care which gender ends up filling which role but the roles are different. The Father and the Mother shouldn't be doing the exact same job with the exact same reactions.

Stereotype alert!

Query: Do women get paid less in todays society? If you answer yes, you've justified the sterotype against you.

Lol.
Yes, and women aren't given mixed messages too?

We've got magazines focused at teens that tell us to be proud of who we are, yet offer pages and pages of weight loss tips and show nothing but skinny models.

The same mixed message at men as well. However this has to do with appearance and not behavior.

We're told we can do anything we want with our lifes, be a doctor, be a lawyer, get rich, get famous, whatever... yet are considered failures if we aren't married by 30 and popping out babies.

Hardly. And if said sterotype exists it is created by women towards women, not by men.

We're told we can do anything, but that we suck at math.

Hmm, seems contrary to the horrible ads that fill up the radio, paid for by the government, lamenting society for not encouraging their young girls to pursure math and science.


Now this is bullshit.
All my male friends have close male friends. I don't have a single close female friend.

Define "close." Men tend to keep friends who are not quite so close. Some men have close friends. Most men probably don't.

Uh huh... so basically you're saying that you don't want to look gay in front of the guys, so you keep them at a distance. And it's society's fault that you can't set aside these stupid stereotypes and live your own damn life for yourself?

Hey, did you not just complain about these poor young girls who can't put aside the stupid sterotypes they see in their magazines and can't live their own damned lives? Tsk tsk.

I don't watch TV. I'm going by what I see in real life. Don't tell me that you've never seen two female friends going around holding hands.

:raises hand: Never seen it, at least not in America.

Hurrah! A Reasonable Person At Last, After All These Years!
sure, don't remember my awesome "What should we do with feminists" thread.

Grace under Fire? Single mom raising her kid? Father is a dead-beat?
Never watched it.

Murphy Brown certainly had a very strong female lead.
Did she have a family? I don't believe she did... and I thought here we were talking about shows with family structures... If we're including single people, then hell, what about Fraiser...

Roseanne.
Never watched it.

And While the mother in Malcom in the Middle is protrayed as a nag she is also protrayed as a strong lead who is the actual discpline and main figure in the family. Indeed she occupies the traditional role of the.. hmm, Father Figure.
Not really... the father still brings in the majority of the cash in that house (unless you think that working full time at a grocery store brings in that much dough) and well, he's more of a cool dad than anything, getting in on ptojects the boys take up when it's not illegal or immoral and being a friend type dad, the mom's just a bitch who really, does a crappy job as being a disciplinarian...

Tool Time? Dad is a fool. Mother is virtually always right?
Actaully, Wilson was always right on that show, even Jill went to him for advice.
And the show was Home Improvement, Tool Time was the show on the show. And again, this is based of the stand up comedy of the male lead who is choosing to portray himself in this manner.

Men do bond with their childern.
Never said they didn't. I'm saying they too should have time off to spend with the infant, i.e paternity leave. During this time, it would probably also help the mother, who could still be recuperating from the pregnancy.

Different parents have different roles. I don't particulary care which gender ends up filling which role but the roles are different. The Father and the Mother shouldn't be doing the exact same job with the exact same reactions.
I never said they should be doing the exact same thing. Hell, when I have kids, I'm nominating the dad the disciplinarian. Fuck that shit, I'm being the cool mom who the kids like. He can be the one they don't like. :p

The same mixed message at men as well. However this has to do with appearance and not behavior.
Ok, how about: you can do what you want, but if you play sports and don't wear dresses and makeup, you're butch.

Hardly. And if said sterotype exists it is created by women towards women, not by men.
Yes, and women are the ones who run around calling men gay for having emotions. :rolleyes: give me a break. When men box in other men, you rant about how society does it, but when women box in other women, it's our fault entirely.

Hmm, seems contrary to the horrible ads that fill up the radio, paid for by the government, lamenting society for not encouraging their young girls to pursure math and science.
What ads?

Define "close." Men tend to keep friends who are not quite so close. Some men have close friends. Most men probably don't.
Huh, so men never go to their freinds for advice? They never go to rant about things that bother them, about problems they have? They never tell them things they don't tell their girlfriends/wives? That's what I define as a close relationship.

Hey, did you not just complain about these poor young girls who can't put aside the stupid sterotypes they see in their magazines and can't live their own damned lives? Tsk tsk.
There's quite a difference between standards imposed on teenage girls who are going through enough bodily and hormonal changes to be self conscious about their physical appearance to start with and grown men who are afraid to have friends because they think others will perceive them as "gay".

Although I agree with most of what you said, I think it is only valid in some parts of the world.
There is still FAR too much oppression of women in the world for most people to really give any validity to the masculism perspective.
My first thought when I read your post was " Men rule the world, so if they messed it up for themselves, too bad. " Granted, that wasn't a very nice thought - and not neccesarily how I felt after I thought about it for a moment - but it was my first reaction.
WE don't rule the world! No laws exist in the western world that forbid women to vote, or run for office!

Then why do so many of you not understand women? Most of us understand you.
Women's actions are guided more by their hearts, while men's logic is guided more by the brains. Surprisngly, women have a higher brain activity in the left hemisphere (logic and math), while men have a higher brain activity in the right one (emotions, color, music)

And also, most men are forced into easy to understand, sex driven stereotypes.

Yes, but WE feel bad about it!
And men don't? Do i smell a stereotype. Sounds like you have been reading the SCUM manifesto too much.


In other news, I know a guy who often comes in pink shirts, and tucks them in. Guys look down on him, but don't really say much, while girls love it.

Then how come i can predict men's mbehavious at least 90% of the time. None of my boufriends have ever understood me or exoeced my reactions. It's the same with my friends.

And I can predict that if two black guys are following me on a dark streets they will probably mug me. However does that mean that ALL black people are robbers? no.

Yes they do, but they're looking for different things
stereotype, again.

men are moaning about what's been taken away from them.As in our rights?

feminism=masculism=the fight for equity?
It would actually work better if the two were one organization not two. It would also be better if masculism existed on the same scale as feminism. How many masculist organizations can you name? Now how man feminist ones?

Aah, so you care about your kids, just not enough to leave work when they're sick?
Bullshit, many fathers stay home when their kids are sick. Yet another stereotype.

What the hell are you guys fighting about? Is it which gender is the most stereotyped, what? I think we all agree that both genders should get equal treatment when it comes to jobs, education etc. so what is everyone's problem? Some people just seem to have a chip on their shoulder i guess. I, for example, hate seeing that the world's quest for gender equality is in women's hands alone.

So now you're trying to claim a female monopoly on love? We men like our sex (as do women), but do you really think that we're so shallow as to be uninterested in love and intimacy?
Yea, and by the way, women have a lot more nerve endings on their genitals, so they actually enjoy sex more than men.


No, most men seem to think we're either doormats or ballbreakers. thay judge us as either too klingy or to alloof. they dont think about who we are and what we might do based on what they know.

I don't, so there. WHAM!

is triggered by rage in most cases, a hatred of women. Still, if you cant get it up, you cant rape And if we cut out a woman's vagina, she can't rape either.

It was one night, i felt lonely, unloved and shitty. I took what i thought would be comfort. it wasnt. I felt gastly, cheep, worthless, slutish and just awful.
So it was sex.

I dont like the majority of you, no. Try reading some of the atrocities men do when left to their own devices. Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq waretc etc etc.

You are not a nice species.

I havent mentioned WW2 as you so kindly called me a nazi. I wouldnt have killed all men. i wouldnt even have killed most of you. I wouldnt have killed anyone except murderers therefor no nazi, no WW2, no need for the slur, thank you very much.

I may not think much of men, i may not have a high opinion of most of them, but i dont, wouldnt and would never persecute them and i think your a shit for saying i'm a nazi.
Because women never warred? Shall we remember Mary the Bloody, Cleopatra, and a few others?

But if a man does not want to have sex he goes limp. He has to want it to get it up. If he cant get it up how can a woman force it to?
Nope, you can get an erection without your will. AT least I can.

Men can fight back against a woman
Not always, some women are bodybuilders, some men are weak, and there can be like 5 women jumping him.

Whoah, what planet are you from?
Venus, duh! ;)



have said it before in thsi thread and now i'll say it again. I also dont think much of many women.

However, this is a thread about masculis. NOT feminism.

If i dont have a good view of men, it's because of what i read.

In war you rape, you pillage, you are basically not nice.

At home a woman is 4 times out of 5 killed by someone she knows, usually her partner or ex partner (uk Stats)

Children are most likley to be abused by a male relative.

Yes, we women can be evil, crule and nasty sometimes, but thestatistics show that men do the most damage.

And Eurotrash Smoke, Have you ever read any european women's books/accounts on WW 1, 2 and the other european wars? it's their stories that tell the horror, not the returning "heros".
Statistics mean crap. According to statisticts, African Americans commit more crime than Caucasians. So does that mean that all African Americans are criminals, while Caucasians are sinless angels? Well if yuo think so, then you are probably a KKKer.

Everybody loves Raymond: Well, first of all, it's written by a man who chooses to portray himself as bumbling. He does have many moments where he fixes the problems his family has and often shows that he is a good father, husband and provider. Debrah is usually portrayed as uptight, a wet blanket and a nag. Debra takes care of the kids, while he just plays golf. Debra is the boss of him, telling him what to do. If he objects, she yells at him, beats him etc. It's actually a very abusive relationship.

Women's actions are guided more by their hearts, while men's logic is guided more by the brains. Surprisngly, women have a higher brain activity in the left hemisphere (logic and math), while men have a higher brain activity in the right one (emotions, color, music)
I think you got that last bit backwards from how it started.

Debra takes care of the kids, while he just plays golf. Debra is the boss of him, telling him what to do. If he objects, she yells at him, beats him etc. It's actually a very abusive relationship.
She doesn't beat him... what the hell are you talking about? He also does take care of the kids to some extent, of course Debrah is going to do more, she's a stay at home mom (in most episodes anyways...), Ray has a job.

I think you got that last bit backwards from how it started.


She doesn't beat him... what the hell are you talking about? He also does take care of the kids to some extent, of course Debrah is going to do more, she's a stay at home mom (in most episodes anyways...), Ray has a job.
It's my favorite show, so I know. She hits him a lot, she once breaks his golf clubs against his spine. Also, Amy hits Roberts a lot.
If you want an example, in the episode where she and Marie have some sneaky plan to get Amy and Robert back together, by making Amy go out with Gilanni (sp?). Amy is supposed to have a bad date, and robert is supposed to go jealous. When ray finds out, and tries to tell Robert, Debra just hits him in his nuts(or stomache, it's not really clear). Raymond goes down. When he comes back up and tries to tell it again, she hits him again.

And no, the last bit is correct. I was suprirsed to read it, but it is correct. Women have a higher left hemishpere activity (logic and math), while men have a higher right hemisphere activity (emotions, colors, music).

Also, a lot more of women's brains are activated as a response to a foreign disturbance. That's why women enjoy tactile contact so much. Men's brains weigh more, but women's brains have more neurons.

Men are closer in genotype to a certain male monkey than to women. Women are closer to the female of the same monkey species than to men. So the genetic difference is humongous.

There are a lot more genious men than women, but there are also a lot more idiot men then women. Women are closer to the average.

Men are closer in genotype to a certain male monkey than to women. Women are closer to the female of the same monkey species than to men. So the genetic difference is humongous.


How very curious. In all my years of studying Anthropology and Animal Sciences at college and research I have never come across that fact. I can however tell you that all humans are VERY close genetically. It's difficult to explain without your general audience having a grasp of founder's effect and the bottleneck effect, but basically about 300,000 years ago an enourmous portion of the human population died out. Some figures state as much as 70% percent worldwide. We almost went the way of the dodo. Well because of this our DNA hasn't had much time since to diversify. This is much unlike our fellow primates who are not so genotypically similar (but phenotypically look similiar no?)


It took a great while but I did read all of the 12 pages of post. Eesh! I was shocked by the alarming amount of stereotypes that are passed off as valid arguments. Argument by stereotype is a fallicious argument, but sadly false arguments have a wonderful ability of convincing people of their non-existent truth.

Of late I have taken a great interest in gender equality since I am absolutley fascinated by gender studies from an anthropological standpoint. If one takes the time to study the differences between men and women it will be quite apparent that, while different, we are just opposing paths to the same destination.

Feminist Cat Women's theory that only men are susceptible to war and rape is misguided at best. As proof I offer the ancient Greek society known as Sparta. They were a society of extreme violence with women having to pass ghastly tests to achieve womanhood. There were also noted instances of Spartan women raping each other. As with many primates this is done out of a desire to dominate. She was correct in blaming testosterone for this. Women who work in positions of dominance are usually found to produce higher amounts of it than their peers. So we must ask ourselves; are men victims of their genetics, or rather victims of their socialization?

Feminist Cat Women's theory that only men are susceptible to war and rape is misguided at best. As proof I offer the ancient Greek society known as Sparta. They were a society of extreme violence with women having to pass ghastly tests to achieve womanhood. There were also noted instances of Spartan women raping each other.
How exactly does a woman rape another woman?

Alright there's been a lot said on this topic so if I repeat what others have said forgive me. I did not have the patience to go through all twelve pages of the bad grammer, slander, sexist comments, and general assumptions. Though I must admit I felt there were also quite a few brilliant comments mixed in. Also I myself am far from perfect and everything I believe is based off of my own personal experiences and thereby only true as far as I'm concerned.

First, every person in this world is an individual. We all must make our own choices to the best of our abilities. Similarities can be drawn, but that does not make them always true or even mostly true.

Second, our behaviors are not just determined by sex, race, or religion. It is also dependent on how we are raised. The environment we grow up in plays a huge role, and some of it is genetics. I myself am female, but have often been mistaken for a male on-line. I even took a test once that was supposed to be able to tell wether you are male or female and it told me I was male. That was highly amusing. But my point is that my personality was formed by the manner in which I was raised. I was raised to believe three essential things: only babies cry, showing emotions is a weakness, dispaying weakness will get you killed or beaten on a daily basis. It really doesn't help that I'm very short and thereby a supposedly "perfect" target for bullies. And, Cat woman, I was terrorized and hunted more often by females then by males. Guys were mostly happy to just insult me. And I only had to beat up one guy to get the rest to keep their distance, girls continued to try in make my life a living hell in many more subtle ways.

Third, men can be raped. It's a scientific fact. Look it up. What's more men are beaten and the victims of abusive relationships just as women are. It's just that men are supposed to be "tough" and "strong" and thereby do not report these instances. I grew up in a household where my father was beaten by my mother. Don't think my father wasn't strong, because if he had chosen to he could have easily won if not killed my mother. But he had too much pride and integrity to do that. The only reason he stayed around as long as he did, was for us. His kids. Cat woman, when I got sick my mother shipped me off to relatives or passed me off to my sister. If, however, I was with my father at the time, he would do everything neccessary to make me better. One time he swalled at least twenty aspirain while trying to teach me how to take it. He was also the only one who ever took me to the doctor when I had a wound on my knee that wouldn't heal and kept me up at night due to the pain. My father "cheated" on my mother, because he was looking for someone else he could love. My mother "cheated" on my father because he wasn't manly enough for her. Since he didn't beat her or abuse her in any fashion.

Fourth, I was once told men need to feel physically close to be emotionally close as well. This is not neccessarily true, but it is what I was told. For men the act of sex is allowing themselves to become close and emotionally open to someone they care about. For women sex is supposed to be a sign of that closeness. It already has to be there for some. Again, I don't know if this is necessarily accurate, but if it is, it in no way makes women better than men. It's just a different way of going about getting close.

Finally, women are just as manipulative as men. I'm just of the mindset that men use it to get sex and women to get everything else they want. Both sexes use their own sex and the opposite sex just as much, but only for different things. A woman will use the silent treatment or cry to get men to apologize. A man will compliment a woman and date her to get sex. Or it can just as easily be the other way around. Why else would the word nymphomaniac be made up? I just think it's more common for women to manipulative for reasons other than sex and men for sex. It's a fact of science that for the most part men desire sex more than woman. Just a side fact, gay men have more sex than a straight couple, and leasbian women the least amount of sex. And straight couples actually have more anal sex than gay men.

Again this is just the world as I see it. It is my truth. We are all different and experience different things, but the most important thing to remember is never to let you prejudices, assumptions, or past experience define a person for you. No two people in this world are exactly the same.

It's a fact of science that for the most part men desire sex more than woman.
This is true because in prehistoric times it was necessary for a man to spread his DNA to as many women as possible so he would have lots of descendants. Women could only get pregnant every 9 months so lots of sex was not necessary for them.

But what confuses me is why nature gave women the only human organ that exists exclusively for pleasure - that is the clitoris - but not men, why the aforementioned clitoris has more nerves than the penis, so women enjoy sex more. Also, why is it that women can have unlimited orgasms whereas men must wait a bit after ejaculating.

This is true because in prehistoric times it was necessary for a man to spread his DNA to as many women as possible so he would have lots of descendants. Women could only get pregnant every 9 months so lots of sex was not necessary for them.

But what confuses me is why nature gave women the only human organ that exists exclusively for pleasure - that is the clitoris - but not men, why the aforementioned clitoris has more nerves than the penis, so women enjoy sex more. Also, why is it that women can have unlimited orgasms whereas men must wait a bit after ejaculating.
Every 15 months. It takes a while for the vagina to heal.

How exactly does a woman rape another woman?

Any blunt object will do...

Never watched it.

Fits nicely into your particular issue. Strong single mother working to provide for her daughter and son while dealing with the dead-beat father who ran off and seems to miss childsupport payments.

Did she have a family? I don't believe she did... and I thought here we were talking about shows with family structures... If we're including single people, then hell, what about Fraiser...

I seem recall that there was some sort of pregancy near the end of the Murphy brown :shrug:. Eh maybe me memory is wrong.

Fraiser did have a family structure. You had grandpa, Fraiser, his son and his weird wife. Through in the wacky uncle and his very weird wives plus the live in physical therapist who.. ahem. Fraiser would be a good example actually :p

Not really... the father still brings in the majority of the cash in that house (unless you think that working full time at a grocery store brings in that much dough) and well, he's more of a cool dad than anything, getting in on ptojects the boys take up when it's not illegal or immoral and being a friend type dad, the mom's just a bitch who really, does a crappy job as being a disciplinarian...

The whole family is fubar. Doesn't mean the mom isn't occupying the role of the father figure, outside of income.

Actaully, Wilson was always right on that show, even Jill went to him for advice.
And the show was Home Improvement, Tool Time was the show on the show. And again, this is based of the stand up comedy of the male lead who is choosing to portray himself in this manner.

Oh bah. Tool Time sounds better lol. Either way Jill was always correct outside matters where Wilson wasn't consulted.

Never said they didn't. I'm saying they too should have time off to spend with the infant, i.e paternity leave. During this time, it would probably also help the mother, who could still be recuperating from the pregnancy.

Sure parternity leave would be nice. However mothers and fathers bond to their childern in very different ways and through different means. And to some extent at different times during their development.

Ok, how about: you can do what you want, but if you play sports and don't wear dresses and makeup, you're butch.

See the complaint at the bottom. Society pressure to much? Nevermind that the girls I found most attractive while in Highschool were on Cross country, Track and Soccer. No idea if they wore makeup or dresses. But then again you're talking about the issues that women will call other women. Not what men will say. To fix this particular issue you're going to need to change how women think of eachother.

Yes, and women are the ones who run around calling men gay for having emotions. :rolleyes: give me a break. When men box in other men, you rant about how society does it, but when women box in other women, it's our fault entirely.

What does that have to do with what I was replying to? Perhaps you need to read it again but I was replying to some stuff about being doctors/lawyers etc... (which btw the schools are bending over backwards to make possible, going to the extent of intentionally taking in as many women as they can.)

As far as what I say, when men box men in I say men box men in. When women box women in I say women box women in. So who exactly are you talking about when you say "you."

What ads?

In California at least. Populating virtually every radio station from San Deigo to Eureka.

Huh, so men never go to their freinds for advice? They never go to rant about things that bother them, about problems they have? They never tell them things they don't tell their girlfriends/wives? That's what I define as a close relationship.

What you've described is a friendship. Nothing all that close really.

There's quite a difference between standards imposed on teenage girls who are going through enough bodily and hormonal changes to be self conscious about their physical appearance to start with and grown men who are afraid to have friends because they think others will perceive them as "gay".

:rolleyes: right, because no guy going through puberty is reading Maxim, Stuff, Playboy etc... You're blaming society for the fault of women and casting aside the issues facing men as trivial. :Shurg: Persoanlly I tell both sides to simply toughen the f' up and either overcome the "pressure" being "forced" on you by magazines you're paying for or go ahead and succumb to it. Hasn't ever bothered me much.

But what confuses me is why nature gave women the only human organ that exists exclusively for pleasure - that is the clitoris - but not men, why the aforementioned clitoris has more nerves than the penis, so women enjoy sex more. Also, why is it that women can have unlimited orgasms whereas men must wait a bit after ejaculating.

Some women can have "unlimited" orgasms. Indeed women have a very wide range of their tendencies and "abilities" when it comes to sex. Most women it seems are rather limited in that regard. Many can't/won't experience an orgasm untill their late 20s, at least through vaginal intercourse. Oral and masturbatory stimulation tend to be much more effective. Most women indeed are not multiorgasmic.*

*Note: information only to be beleived if you trust Dr. Drew Pinsky.

yea, some mildly atheltic girls are hot.
Of course the crazy bodybuilders with a mustache, and muscles the size of Swarznegger is a different issue.

Girls are not pressured to be anthing. They are just told that if they want to look attractive to guys, and have a better chance of a relationship, they have to have ceratain qualities. Same is true with guys -- you have to possess some qualities for women to want you. It's natural, considering that you have 3 billion partners to choose out from, that you look for those with qualities that you like more, be it large breasts, or small waistline.

yea, some mildly atheltic girls are hot.
Of course the crazy bodybuilders with a mustache, and muscles the size of Swarznegger is a different issue.

Girls are not pressured to be anthing. They are just told that if they want to look attractive to guys, and have a better chance of a relationship, they have to have ceratain qualities. Same is true with guys -- you have to possess some qualities for women to want you. It's natural, considering that you have 3 billion partners to choose out from, that you look for those with qualities that you like more, be it large breasts, or small waistline.
Well done, you just described the pressure that apparently doesn't exist. No way in hell should I have to change to please someone else. People should be able to be hemselves, and not have to meet some societal standard. This goes for men and women.

Well done, you just described the pressure that apparently doesn't exist. No way in hell should I have to change to please someone else. People should be able to be hemselves, and not have to meet some societal standard. This goes for men and women.

ANOTHER thing we agree on?

What a surprise!

:D

Well done, you just described the pressure that apparently doesn't exist. No way in hell should I have to change to please someone else. People should be able to be hemselves, and not have to meet some societal standard. This goes for men and women.
So don't change! However, your chances of getting into a relationship get higher if you do. The reason for that, is guys have to choose a partner based on some characteristics, otherwise, how do you know who to choose? But you don't have to change, you just get a lower chance of getting a relationship.

Well done, you just described the pressure that apparently doesn't exist. No way in hell should I have to change to please someone else. People should be able to be hemselves, and not have to meet some societal standard. This goes for men and women.

Certain things will make you more attractive in the eyes of the opposite sex. No matter how society changes this will remain so. Whether it is your physical beauty, your mind, your personality or whether you are left or right handed. Certain things will always be more desirable. No one has to meet these "societal standards", which I think is a wholly inaccurate term. It is up to each person if they are going to cave in to this pressure or not.

I note though that women do seem to get what men desire wrong though. Especially if they buy into the "so skinny you can see your bones" idea of beauty. The "gigantic breasts are the only thing that matters" school of thought is also rather wrong.

So don't change! However, your chances of getting into a relationship get higher if you do. The reason for that, is guys have to choose a partner based on some characteristics, otherwise, how do you know who to choose? But you don't have to change, you just get a lower chance of getting a relationship.
My point is that a guy shouldn't have to choose by extraneous, societal standards. Love is not a meat market for fucks sake. People just being themselves should be able to find partners. I did.

Huh. Maybe we don't?

Perhaps if men stoppped stereotyping every woman who expects equal pay for equal work as a man hating lesbian, then I'll be content witholding the asskickings you so rightly deserve.

I never stereotyped women like that. You just assumed I did. Perhaps you should shut up.

My point is that a guy shouldn't have to choose by extraneous, societal standards. Love is not a meat market for fucks sake. People just being themselves should be able to find partners. I did.
No, he chooses by his own standards. But because of how we evolved, our standards are set partly by our genes, so they match. Guys look for large breasts, because it reminds them of their infantry age, and feeding from their mother's breast. Large hips, because a girl with large hips would have an easier time giving birth. It's all subconcious, of course.

My point is that a guy shouldn't have to choose by extraneous, societal standards. Love is not a meat market for fucks sake. People just being themselves should be able to find partners. I did.

Hey, wait, you mean guys all get together and say "this is the standards by which we will choose the girls we date and never shall we go against them!" :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but basically you just said that men get together in a big secret meeting and lay down some grand societal standards that we all agree to follow.

Hey, wait, you mean guys all get together and say "this is the standards by which we will choose the girls we date and never shall we go against them!" :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but basically you just said that men get together in a big secret meeting and lay down some grand societal standards that we all agree to follow.
I doubt she thinks that, but lets face it, the media puts forth the impression that the ideal woman supposedly favoured by males is blonde, slightly tanned and has blue eyes and large breasts. Which is totally wrong, as I prefer dark hair, white skin, green eyes and medium/proportionate breasts.

Hey, wait, you mean guys all get together and say "this is the standards by which we will choose the girls we date and never shall we go against them!" :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but basically you just said that men get together in a big secret meeting and lay down some grand societal standards that we all agree to follow.

We are men. We all watch football, drink beer and guffaw when people fart.

Women of course live blameless lives of self sacrifice and suffering and never fall pray to greed, anger, jealousy or the desire for violence. They never choose their partners on the basis of looks.

Ah sarcasm. The greatest form of wit.

We are men. We all watch football, drink beer and guffaw when people fart.

Women of course live blameless lives of self sacrifice and suffering and never fall pray to greed, anger, jealousy or the desire for violence. They never choose their partners on the basis of looks.

Ah sarcasm. The greatest form of wit.
Yeah this is Feminist Cat Women's argument in a nutshell. Wait, you forgot to mention that all men are evil warmongering violent rapists who should be castrated.

Yeah this is Feminist Cat Women's argument in a nutshell. Wait, you forgot to mention that all men are evil warmongering violent rapists who should be castrated.
http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm

http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm

Wow...

Wow...

The person who wrote that site is deranged.

The person who wrote that site is deranged.
Site? It's a book! The writer of the SCUM manifesto even tried to kill Andy Warhol by shooting him, although he survived.

I doubt she thinks that, but lets face it, the media puts forth the impression that the ideal woman supposedly favoured by males is blonde, slightly tanned and has blue eyes and large breasts. Which is totally wrong, as I prefer dark hair, white skin, green eyes and medium/proportionate breasts.

Quit stealing my taste in women damn you! :mad: :p

No, he chooses by his own standards. But because of how we evolved, our standards are set partly by our genes, so they match. Guys look for large breasts, because it reminds them of their infantry age, and feeding from their mother's breast. Large hips, because a girl with large hips would have an easier time giving birth. It's all subconcious, of course.
Hey, I kinda like large breasts, and I've never been in the army!
(not too large, mind. A couple of kittens playing in a bag sort of thing, rather than a dead-heat in a zeppelin race)

http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm

Holy...

Some rational women needs to put a foot up the asses of these morons. Thank God 99.9% of women are not like this. :D

A good female friend of mine is an avid feminist and I respect her, but some of the misconceptions she has about males are quite alarming. What's more she isn't the only women who has the misconeptions. You would think the whole feminist movement is founded on typical stereotypes of men! It's quite comical how women think they "have us figured out" when they have no clue. Just because you have one man figured out doesn't mean that you have all of us pegged.

I proposed this question to the leader of the local college women's center.

"I notice a statistic that says, 'One in four women will be raped or attempted to be raped while in college.' Doesn't that mean that one in four men are rapists?"

She looked at me wide eyed for a second and replied, "I...I don't know." Keep in mind this women is a leading feminist figure on my campus. It's perposterous that statistics like this exist and are perpetuated. How can you accuratley conduct a study of this type anyhow?

This is true because in prehistoric times it was necessary for a man to spread his DNA to as many women as possible so he would have lots of descendants. Women could only get pregnant every 9 months so lots of sex was not necessary for them.

But what confuses me is why nature gave women the only human organ that exists exclusively for pleasure - that is the clitoris - but not men, why the aforementioned clitoris has more nerves than the penis, so women enjoy sex more. Also, why is it that women can have unlimited orgasms whereas men must wait a bit after ejaculating.
Well, during arousal, the shape of the vagina changes to hold sperm in. The top 2/3rds of it balloon out... so it is a reproductive advantage to be able to reach such states of arousal and orgasm.

Aside from that, it could be as simple as why men have nipples: in utero, everyone starts out female, sex differentiation starts out later, the clitoris has the same kind of tissue as the penis... i dunno... i'm not a biologist.

"I notice a statistic that says, 'One in four women will be raped or attempted to be raped while in college.' Doesn't that mean that one in four men are rapists?"

You could only say that if every woman only knew one man and every man only knew one woman. Those who attempt rape generally do it more than once.

She looked at me wide eyed for a second and replied, "I...I don't know." Keep in mind this women is a leading feminist figure on my campus. It's perposterous that statistics like this exist and are perpetuated. How can you accuratley conduct a study of this type anyhow?

You ask people - it isn't that hard to do. Now, generally I hear statistics like that for sexual assault, not simply rape, but you basically give the women a definition, then ask if it has happened to them. Inevitably, some people who it *has* happened to will say no, so the statistics are sometimes extrapolated partially to account for that - they are usually, however, reported as such.

I can tell you that 3/4 of the women I have known in my life have been sexually assaulted in some way (often during childhood) - and that is a pretty close to the statistics you hear as well.

Well, during arousal, the shape of the vagina changes to hold sperm in. The top 2/3rds of it balloon out... so it is a reproductive advantage to be able to reach such states of arousal and orgasm.

The female orgasm also helps push sperm inwards - increasing the chance of pregnancy. This is why it is best for a woman to orgasm at the same time or after a man if she is trying to get pregnant.

Arousal also releases hormones and such that help increase the chances of pregnancy.

You could only say that if every woman only knew one man and every man only knew one woman. Those who attempt rape generally do it more than once.



You ask people - it isn't that hard to do. Now, generally I hear statistics like that for sexual assault, not simply rape, but you basically give the women a definition, then ask if it has happened to them. Inevitably, some people who it *has* happened to will say no, so the statistics are sometimes extrapolated partially to account for that - they are usually, however, reported as such.

I can tell you that 3/4 of the women I have known in my life have been sexually assaulted in some way (often during childhood) - and that is a pretty close to the statistics you hear as well.
Not really. All the women that you knew in your life hardly represent all of the women in the world.

Not really. All the women that you knew in your life hardly represent all of the women in the world.

Darling, I didn't say that *I* had done the study - just that the people I have known conform to the statistics.

Really, learn English before you attempt to read.

My experience with those stats seem to bear them out, though in the wacky ward it's more like 9 out of 10 women. When I was in a depression group, it was 100%.

You shouldnt. Women have affairs to feel loved and wanted. Men have affairs because they can.
Pfft, that's not true. I know quite a few relationships where there have been affairs and most of the time it has been the woman who has left and done it because she could and the man who would do it because he felt unloved.

This actually happened to my parents. My mother found somebody else [and he was a very abuseive person, so I seriously doubt it was for love] while my father found cheated on her because she was unloving. Similar things have happened in my family as well as in several of my friends families. Maybe it's just this area, but there's about as good a chance for either of the two to leave just because they "can".

Hey, wait, you mean guys all get together and say "this is the standards by which we will choose the girls we date and never shall we go against them!" :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but basically you just said that men get together in a big secret meeting and lay down some grand societal standards that we all agree to follow.

You can try to fight it, but it does seem to be true - there are 'fashions' of female desairability that MOST males will conform to, and that are largely determined (it seems) by peer group pressure.

In the 21st Century, our 'peer group' is much larger than previously, and so our 'conformity' is geographically greater.

If you seriously doubt that such an effect takes place, try comparing art of our modern times, with art works of earlier periods.

The last few decades have seen the common conception of 'beauty' change radically from what was acceptable even during war-time... and the effect is even more noticable if you jump back a century or two.

You can try to fight it, but it does seem to be true - there are 'fashions' of female desairability that MOST males will conform to, and that are largely determined (it seems) by peer group pressure.

In the 21st Century, our 'peer group' is much larger than previously, and so our 'conformity' is geographically greater.

If you seriously doubt that such an effect takes place, try comparing art of our modern times, with art works of earlier periods.

The last few decades have seen the common conception of 'beauty' change radically from what was acceptable even during war-time... and the effect is even more noticable if you jump back a century or two.

What no really? You mean for the most part the same basic traits are desired? Well smack me over the head with the most obvious statement in the world.

I'm fairly sure I've told you this before, but you need to spend a good amount of time working on your reasoning and comprehension skills. My post in no way made a statement that most men don't desire the same basic things in women and that these basic desires aren't based at least somewhat on peer pressures.

The problem is that they are indeed very basic things and that there is a huge variety in the tastes of men. In fact this variety is so vast that there is no actual "common conception of beauty" that you wish to pretend there is. While 90% of guys will agree that they would happily fuck Britney Spears, virtually every single one of those guys would be able to come up with someone they'd like to fuck more than Britney Spears and the selections they make will be vastly varied and represent a gigantic spread of "beauty." Ranging from large to small breasts, short to tall, long hair to shaved heads, blonde to raven black, brown to green eyes, white to Asian, boyish figure to big boned etc...

What no really? You mean for the most part the same basic traits are desired? Well smack me over the head with the most obvious statement in the world.

I'm fairly sure I've told you this before, but you need to spend a good amount of time working on your reasoning and comprehension skills. My post in no way made a statement that most men desire the same basic things in women.

The problem is that they are indeed very basic things and that there is a huge variety in the tastes of men. In fact this variety is so vast that there is no actual "common conception of beauty" that you wish to pretend there is. While 90% of guys will agree that they would happily fuck Britney Spears, virtually every single one of those guys would be able to come up with someone they'd like to fuck more than Britney Spears and the selections they make will be vastly varied and represent a gigantic spread of "beauty." Ranging from large to small breasts, short to tall, long hair to shaved heads, blonde to raven black, brown to green eyes, white to Asian, boyish figure to big boned etc...


Stop the flaming the first two paragraphs roughly were nothing but attacking and in no way support any arguement

back off, the mods dont look kindly on it

Stop the flaming the first two paragraphs roughly were nothing but attacking and in no way support any arguement

back off, the mods dont look kindly on it

See the red triangle in every post other than your own? You want to be a forum police. Use it.

See the red triangle in every post other than your own? You want to be a forum police. Use it.
So that's what those are for.

See the red triangle in every post other than your own? You want to be a forum police. Use it.
The correct procedure is to post in the moderator forum ... if I remember right the red triangles go to ALL jolt mods

Anyways I will do that ... I was trying to give you the benifit of the doubt and give you a friendly non mod pov that you were steping close to the line

I am a feminist AND a masculist.

Also known as an egalitarian.

What no really? You mean for the most part the same basic traits are desired? Well smack me over the head with the most obvious statement in the world.

I'm fairly sure I've told you this before, but you need to spend a good amount of time working on your reasoning and comprehension skills. My post in no way made a statement that most men don't desire the same basic things in women and that these basic desires aren't based at least somewhat on peer pressures.

The problem is that they are indeed very basic things and that there is a huge variety in the tastes of men. In fact this variety is so vast that there is no actual "common conception of beauty" that you wish to pretend there is. While 90% of guys will agree that they would happily fuck Britney Spears, virtually every single one of those guys would be able to come up with someone they'd like to fuck more than Britney Spears and the selections they make will be vastly varied and represent a gigantic spread of "beauty." Ranging from large to small breasts, short to tall, long hair to shaved heads, blonde to raven black, brown to green eyes, white to Asian, boyish figure to big boned etc...

Implying that I need to work on my 'reasoning and comprehension' skills is irrelevent, incorrect, and close to flaming, I suspect.

This is your post:"Hey, wait, you mean guys all get together and say "this is the standards by which we will choose the girls we date and never shall we go against them!"

I'm sorry but basically you just said that men get together in a big secret meeting and lay down some grand societal standards that we all agree to follow".

Which was the response to:"My point is that a guy shouldn't have to choose by extraneous, societal standards. Love is not a meat market for fucks sake. People just being themselves should be able to find partners. I did".

So - obviously you were objecting to the idea of a 'majority' determination of beauty... and your 'sarcastic' post said pretty much just that.

All I did was point out that, in fact, there pretty much IS a huge conspiracy, a "big secret meeting", and that your sarcasm was wasted, because, you were actually close to the truth.

Look at your own post... admittedly, it is all opinion, and you provide no evidence, but look: "...there is no actual "common conception of beauty"...', contrasted, one sentence later with "While 90% of guys will agree that they would happily fuck Britney Spears...".

Look at that logically - how can you imply that there is no general 'rule', and then imply directly after that men follow a general rule - i.e. finding Britney Spears attractive?

See the red triangle in every post other than your own? You want to be a forum police. Use it.

I believe the gent was offering a little constructive advice, before you get yourself in trouble for non-Jolt-sanctioned behaviours.

I am curious that you would rather he had taken you direct to moderation.

The correct procedure is to post in the moderator forum ... if I remember right the red triangles go to ALL jolt mods

Anyways I will do that ... I was trying to give you the benifit of the doubt and give you a friendly non mod pov that you were steping close to the line

Really? :rolleyes: so far as I can see there are some sarcastic comments and an over-zealous you parading in about being dangerously close to the edge. You feel that way, tell a mod. Don't pollute a thread with it.

Really? :rolleyes: so far as I can see there are some sarcastic comments and an over-zealous you parading in about being dangerously close to the edge. You feel that way, tell a mod. Don't pollute a thread with it.
Already done ... and was not parading anything was friendly advice

Now you are right on with the thread (btw I would recomend not polluting it with your inflamitory comments)

(btw I would recomend not polluting it with your inflamitory comments)

Yep, so much for being done :rolleyes: Whether my comments are inflammatory or not end up being of, imo, little consequence when trying to give 'friendly' advice simply serves to create more noise and dilute the thread by causing nice little exchanges such as this. Comments about ones reasoning and comprehension and easily ignored and the thread can easily continue. Indeed while I happily throw them out on occasion. You'll often find that I simply edit similar remarks out of posts that I reply to.

Anyways now gravy has proposed the idea that social perceptions by large groups of males define what "beautifull is" now I have seen it proposed that this is an active shaping of perceptions

But I am curious what do you all think shapes these perceptions? the "whole" supposedly of man's change in what pretty is
Why does it wander?

Yep, so much for being done :rolleyes: Whether my comments are inflammatory or not end up being of, imo, little consequence when trying to give 'friendly' advice simply serves to create more noise and dilute the thread by causing nice little exchanges such as this. Comments about ones reasoning and comprehension and easily ignored and the thread can easily continue. Indeed while I happily throw them out on occasion. You'll often find that I simply edit similar remarks out of posts that I reply to.

There are those that would argue that 'flaming' was derailing the debate - quite aside from it being 'illegal' under Jolt server and Nation States rulings.

An easier option than 'editing out' comments, might be to not make them in the first place?

Yep, so much for being done :rolleyes: Whether my comments are inflammatory or not end up being of, imo, little consequence when trying to give 'friendly' advice simply serves to create more noise and dilute the thread by causing nice little exchanges such as this. Comments about ones reasoning and comprehension and easily ignored and the thread can easily continue. Indeed while I happily throw them out on occasion. You'll often find that I simply edit similar remarks out of posts that I reply to.

Be nice to UT, we all like him =)

::fluffle::

Anyways now gravy has proposed the idea that social perceptions by large groups of males define what "beautifull is" now I have seen it proposed that this is an active shaping of perceptions

But I am curious what do you all think shapes these perceptions? the "whole" supposedly of man's change in what pretty is
Why does it wander?

As he was alluding in the past the conception of beauty was different. In fact during the early portion of America's history for a woman to beautiful she should have pale skin. Why? because it showed she didn't work in the fields, that she was a woman of leisure and thusly wasn't exposed to the sun. In contrast today the conception of beauty is that you have nicely tanned skin. Why? because it shows, once again, you don't have to work, this time in the office, and are able to spend your day outside tanning and in leisure.

Likewise a bit further back in time being plump, ie well-feed, was beautiful because it showed you lived a good life, probably wealthy and taken care of.

:shrug: The same driving force is behind all the ideas of beauty. Leisure, provided for/able to provide. Going back to the same basic reason why 'decent' sized breasts and wide hips are attractive. It just happens to swing and change as society swings and changes because the physical indicators change as society changes.

Be nice to UT, we all like him =)

::fluffle::
Thank you hun ... glad your back by the way :) if I dident tell you before :fluffle:

As he was alluding in the past the conception of beauty was different. In fact during the early portion of America's history for a woman to beautiful she should have pale skin. Why? because it showed she didn't work in the fields, that she was a woman of leisure and thusly wasn't exposed to the sun. In contrast today the conception of beauty is that you have nicely tanned skin. Why? because it shows, once again, you don't have to work, this time in the office, and are able to spend your day outside tanning and in leisure.

Likewise a bit further back in time being plump, ie well-feed, was beautiful because it showed you lived a good life, probably wealthy and taken care of.

:shrug: The same driving force is behind all the ideas of beauty. Leisure, provided for/able to provide. Going back to the same basic reason why 'decent' sized breasts and wide hips are attractive. It just happens to swing and change as society swings and changes because the physical indicators change as society changes.


Then what drives beauty objectives such as hair color and the like?

:
All I did was point out that, in fact, there pretty much IS a huge conspiracy, a "big secret meeting", and that your sarcasm was wasted, because, you were actually close to the truth.

Look at your own post... admittedly, it is all opinion, and you provide no evidence, but look: "...there is no actual "common conception of beauty"...', contrasted, one sentence later with "While 90% of guys will agree that they would happily fuck Britney Spears...".

Look at that logically - how can you imply that there is no general 'rule', and then imply directly after that men follow a general rule - i.e. finding Britney Spears attractive?

Read the post again a few more times. Perhaps one of those times you'll be able to understand the distinction between a general rule and the specific application varying with each man.

:rolleyes: it seems that Upward's comments have done more than enough to derail it that rather than reply to the post that was a reply to yours you have moved on down the thread and gone off on a different tact.

Actually, I don't think you are keeping up... your 'flaming' seems to be interfering with your tracking of posts:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8606095&postcount=223

:rolleyes: it seems that Upward's comments have done more than enough to derail it that rather than reply to the post that was a reply to yours you have moved on down the thread and gone off on a different tact.
And yet because derailment was such a big issue for you I attempted to move beyond that and not reply to your comments and get back on topic

But obviously derailement is not what is most important to you otherwise you like me would have just ingnored the post lag issues and moved on

:

Read the post again a few more times. Perhaps one of those times you'll be able to understand the distinction between a general rule and the specific application varying with each man.

There is no distinction - both are aspects of the same 'beast'.

If the general rule says: "Most men will like blonde women"...

And, my favourite actress is Salma Hayek, and yours is Angelina Jolie, and UpwardThrust like Lucy Liu... but all 3 of us like blondes 'in general', then the "General Rule" holds true, DESPITE the specific application for each male.

Then what drives beauty objectives such as hair color and the like?

As I tried to note already. Personal Preference that varies with and every individual person. Hence why I note the idea that all men will find a certain thing to be attractive is bollox. And note also that these are the conceptions of beauty that supposedly considered the opinion of most men. Whether it is true or not is another question entirely. Currently supposedly most men find these sickly models with visible rib-cages the perfection of beauty. Meanwhile I have to meet a single man who thinks that having a visible rib-cage is a good thing.

Thank you hun ... glad your back by the way :) if I dident tell you before :fluffle:

Seconded. Welcome back Dempublicents (1). :)

As I tried to note already. Personal Preference that varies with and every individual person. Hence why I note the idea that all men will find a certain thing to be attractive is bollox. And note also that these are the conceptions of beauty that supposedly considered the opinion of most men. Whether it is true or not is another question entirely. Currently supposedly most men find these sickly models with visible rib-cages the perfection of beauty. Meanwhile I have to meet a single man who thinks that having a visible rib-cage is a good thing.
Talking statistical norm wandering not "All" such as the upsurge of blonds being a desireable trait or blue or green eyes and so on

Whereas in the 60's or so we saw an upserge of burnett beauty and such ... just average impressions not an overall rule

There is no distinction - both are aspects of the same 'beast'.

If the general rule says: "Most men will like blonde women"...

And, my favourite actress is Salma Hayek, and yours is Angelina Jolie, and UpwardThrust like Lucy Liu... but all 3 of us like blondes 'in general', then the "General Rule" holds true, DESPITE the specific application for each male.

In your example, for practical purposes, the rule doesn't hold at all. Seeing as out of the three of us none of us seem to prefer blondes.

Actually, I don't think you are keeping up... your 'flaming' seems to be interfering with your tracking of posts:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.p...5&postcount=223p

Your posts were not visible to me until rather recently. I'm not quite aware of why they that happened but I had already made the move to delete the post you quote when they became visible to me and I could see it as out of context.

Talking statistical norm wandering not "All" such as the upsurge of blonds being a desireable trait or blue or green eyes and so on

Whereas in the 60's or so we saw an upserge of burnett beauty and such ... just average impressions not an overall rule

Blame Hollywood then. I wouldn't mind seeing some evidence for this proclamation though.

Thank you hun ... glad your back by the way if I dident tell you before

Seconded. Welcome back Dempublicents (1). :)

Thanks! =)

As I tried to note already. Personal Preference that varies with and every individual person. Hence why I note the idea that all men will find a certain thing to be attractive is bollox. And note also that these are the conceptions of beauty that supposedly considered the opinion of most men. Whether it is true or not is another question entirely. Currently supposedly most men find these sickly models with visible rib-cages the perfection of beauty. Meanwhile I have to meet a single man who thinks that having a visible rib-cage is a good thing.

Who said anything about *all* men?

Blame Hollywood then. I wouldn't mind seeing some evidence for this proclamation though.
Um thats why I said impressions because I have not even started looking studies

Who said anything about *all* men?

Yes quibble about the specific word being used rather than worry about addressing the basic point behind it.

Um thats why I said impressions because I have not even started looking studies

Impressions then are meaningless. I would contend that its either a result of the particular actors/models being favored in movies and magazine covers.

http://www.the-gateway.net/fun/suckthread.jpg

Yes quibble about the specific word being used rather than worry about addressing the basic point behind it.
Why shouldent we ... a chunk of your arguement was based on your percieved use of that word , a very important word in a lot of these arguements .

Yes quibble about the specific word being used rather than worry about addressing the basic point behind it.

The basic point is changed quite a bit if you say *all*, rather than *most*.

*Most* men would not be as attracted to, say, Jeneane Garafolo as they would to, say, Denise Richards. That does not, in any way, suggest that there are not men who think the opposite.

*Most* men would not go looking for an A-cup girl, but that does not mean that there are no men who like small-breasted women.