NationStates Jolt Archive

I have heard several people complain on this forum that Christians complain about being "the victim" when they aren't. Well please read this article and tell me Christians are not victims.

For most citizens of Iraq, the invasion meant the end of tyranny. For one group, however, it meant a new start: the country’s historic Christian community. When the war stopped, persecution by Islamists, held in check by Saddam, started.

At a church in Basra I visited a month after the war ended, the women complained of attacks against them for not wearing the Islamic veil. I saw many Christian-owned shops that had been firebombed, with many of the owners killed for exercising their legal right to sell alcohol. Two years and many church attacks later, Iraq may still be occupied by Christian foreign powers, but the Islamist plan to ethnically cleanse Iraq of its nearly 2,000-year-old Assyrian and Armenian Christian communities is reaching fruition.

There is nothing unusual about the persecution of Iraqi Christians, or the unwillingness of other Christians to help them. Rising nationalism and fundamentalism around the world have meant that Christianity is going back to its roots as the religion of the persecuted. There are now more than 300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith — more than any other religion. Christians are no longer, as far as I am aware, thrown to the lions. But from China, North Korea and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, they are subjected to legalised discrimination, violence, imprisonment, relocation and forced conversion. Even in supposedly Christian Europe, Christianity has become the most mocked religion, its followers treated with public suspicion and derision and sometimes — such as the would-be EU commissioner Rocco Buttiglione — hounded out of political office.

I am no Christian, but rather a godless atheist whose soul doesn’t want to be saved, thank you. I may not believe in the man with the white beard, but I do believe that all persecution is wrong. The trouble is that the trendies who normally champion human rights seem to think persecution is fine, so long as it’s only against Christians. While Muslims openly help other Muslims, Christians helping Christians has become as taboo as jingoistic nationalism.

On the face of it, the idea of Christians facing serious persecution seems as far-fetched as a carpenter saving humanity. Christianity is the world’s most followed religion, with two billion believers, and by far its most powerful. It is the most popular faith in six of the seven continents, and in both of the world’s two biggest economies, the US and Europe. Seven of the G8 richest industrial nations are majority Christian, as are four out of five permanent members of the UN Security Council. The cheek-turners control the vast majority of the world’s weapons of mass destruction.

When I bumped into George Bush in the breakfast room of the US embassy in Brussels last month, standing right behind me were two men in uniform carrying the little black ‘nuclear football’, containing the codes to enable the world’s most powerful Christian to unleash the world’s most powerful nuclear arsenal. Christians claiming persecution seem as credible as Bill Gates pleading poverty. But just as Christian-majority armies control Iraq as it ethnically cleanses itself of its Christian community, so the power of Christian countries is of little help to the Christian persecuted where most Christians now live: the Third World.

Across the Islamic world, Christians are systematically discriminated against and persecuted. Saudi Arabia — the global fountain of religious bigotry — bans churches, public Christian worship, the Bible and the sale of Christmas cards, and stops non-Muslims from entering Mecca. Christians are regularly imprisoned and tortured on trumped-up charges of drinking, blaspheming or Bible-bashing, as some British citizens have found. Just last month, furthermore, Saudi Arabia announced that only Muslims can become citizens.

The Copts of Egypt make up half the Christians in the Middle East, the cradle of Christianity. They inhabited the land before the Islamic conquest, and still make up a fifth of the population. By law they are banned from being president of the Islamic Republic of Egypt or attending Al Azhar University, and severely restricted from joining the police and army. By practice they are banned from holding any high political or commercial position. Under the 19th-century Hamayouni decrees, Copts must get permission from the president to build or repair churches — but he usually refuses. Mosques face no such controls.

Government-controlled TV broadcasts anti-Copt propaganda, while giving no airtime to Copts. It is illegal for Muslims to convert to Christianity, but legal for Christians to convert to Islam. Christian girls — and even the wives of Christian priests — are abducted and forcibly converted to Islam, recently prompting mass demonstrations. A report by Freedom House in Washington concludes: ‘The cumulative effect of these threats creates an atmosphere of persecution and raises fears that during the 21st century the Copts may have a vastly diminished presence in their homelands.’

Fr Drew Christiansen, an adviser to the US Conference of Bishops, recently conducted a study which stated that ‘all over the Middle East, Christians are under pressure. “The cradle of Christianity” is under enormous pressure from demographic decline, the growth of Islamic militancy, official and unofficial discrimination, the Iraq war, the Palestinian Intifada, failed peace policies and political manipulation.’

In the world’s most economically successful Muslim nation, Malaysia, the world’s only deliberate affirmative action programme for a majority population ensures that Muslims are given better access to jobs, housing and education. In the world’s most populous Muslim nation, Indonesia, some 10,000 Christians have been killed in the last few years by Muslims trying to Islamify the Moluccas.

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, most of the five million Christians live as an underclass, doing work such as toilet-cleaning. Under the Hudood ordinances, a Muslim can testify against a non-Muslim in court, but a non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim. Blasphemy laws are abused to persecute Christians. In the last few years, dozens of Christians have been killed in bomb and gun attacks on churches and Christian schools.

In Nigeria, 12 states have introduced Sharia law, which affects Christians as much as Muslims. Christian girls are forced to wear the Islamic veil at school, and Christians are banned from drinking alcohol. Thousands of Christians have been killed in the last few years in the ensuing violence.

Although persecution of Christians is greatest in Muslim countries, it happens in countries of all religions and none. In Buddhist-majority Sri Lanka, religious tension led to 44 churches being attacked in the first four months of 2004, with 140 churches being forced to close because of intimidation. In India, the rise of Hindu nationalism has lead to persecution not just of Muslims but of Christians. There have been hundreds of attacks against the Christian community, which has been in India since ad 100. The government’s affirmative action programme for untouchables guarantees jobs and loans for poor Hindus and Buddhists, but not for Christians.

Last year in China, which has about 70 million Christians, more than 100 ‘house churches’ were closed down, and dozens of priests imprisoned. If you join the Communist party, you get special privileges, but you can only join if you are atheist. In North Korea, Christians are persecuted as anti-communist elements, and dissidents claim they are not just imprisoned but used in chemical warfare experiments.

Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Barnabas Trust, which helps persecuted Christians, blames rising global religious tension. ‘More and more Christians are seen as the odd ones out — they are seen as transplants from the West, and not really trusted. It is getting very much worse.’

Even in what was, before multiculturalism, known as Christendom, Christians are persecuted. I have spoken to dozens of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity in Britain, and who are shunned by their community, subjected to mob violence, forced out of town, threatened with death and even kidnapped. The Barnabas Trust knows of 3,000 such Christians facing persecution in this country, but the police and government do nothing.

You get the gist. Dr Paul Marshall, senior fellow at the Centre for Religious Freedom in Washington, estimates that there are 200 million Christians who face violence because of their faith, and 350 million who face legally sanctioned discrimination in terms of access to jobs and housing. The World Evangelical Alliance wrote in a report to the UN Human Rights Commission last year that Christians are ‘the largest single group in the world which is being denied human rights on the basis of their faith’.

Part of the problem is old-style racism against non-whites; part of it is new-style guilt. If all this were happening to the world’s Sikhs or Muslims simply because of their faith, you can be sure it would lead the 10 O’Clock News and the front page of the Guardian on a regular basis. But the BBC, despite being mainly funded by Christians, is an organisation that promotes ridicule of the Bible, while banning criticism of the Koran. Dr Marshall said: ‘Christians are seen as Europeans and Americans, which means you get a lack of sympathy which you would not get if they were Tibetan Buddhists.’

Christians themselves are partly to blame for all this. Some get a masochistic kick out of being persecuted, believing it brings them closer to Jesus, crucified for His beliefs. Christianity uniquely defines itself by its persecution, and its forgiveness of its persecutors: the Christian symbol is the method of execution of its founder. Christianity was a persecuted religion for its first three centuries, until Emperor Constantine decided that worshipping Jesus was better for winning battles than worshipping the sun. In contrast, Mohammed was a soldier and ruler who led his people into victorious battle against their enemies. In the hundred years after the death of Mohammed, Islam conquered and converted most of North Africa and the Middle East in the most remarkable religious expansion in history.

To this day, while Muslims stick up for their co-religionists, Christians — beyond a few charities — have given up such forms of discrimination. Dr Sookhdeo said: ‘The Muslims have an Ummah [the worldwide Muslim community] whereas Christians do not have Christendom. There is no Christian country that says, “We are Christian and we will help Christians.”’

As a liberal democrat atheist, I believe all persecuted people should be helped equally, irrespective of their religion. But the guilt-ridden West is ignoring people because of their religion. If non-Christians like me can sense the nonsense, how does it make Christians feel? And how are they going to react? The Christophobes worried about rising Christian fundamentalism in Britain should understand that it is a reaction to our double standards. And as long as our double standards exist, Christian fundamentalism will grow.

I think every religion is persecuted. Man has a desire to put themselves as the important, and when their is a deity involved, man is lesser. And from this people rebel away from it, seeking the pride of man, rather then the humblance of man.

every group is persecuted somewhere in the world. what's your point?

every group is persecuted somewhere in the world. what's your point?

If you actually read the article, you will see that Christianity is the single worst persecuted group in the world, and no one seems to do anything about it. Certianly Islam doesnt recieve anything like this much persecution yet everyone is rushing to its aid to defend it from simple politiacal incorrectness.

All believers in ANY religion are victims;victims of stupidity. Let there be more piss taking of every religion and show them all up for the ridiculous set of unsupported fairytales that each and every one is. Lets face it, if you're prepared to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence, you deserve to be laughed at...

I have heard several people complain on this forum that Christians complain about being "the victim" when they aren't. Well please read this article and tell me Christians are not victims.
The Church has always thrived when persecuted.

I don't think that anyone would argue that no Christians anywhere are persecuated. When people say that Christians play the victim, they are talking about the likes of American conservative Christians who act as if gay marriage is persecution of their religion.

If you actually read the article, you will see that Christianity is the single worst persecuted group in the world, and no one seems to do anything about it. Certianly Islam doesnt recieve anything like this much persecution yet everyone is rushing to its aid to defend it from simple politiacal incorrectness.
No I think probably Buddists and Sikhs are the most persecuted religious groups, and their persecution is usually at the hands of radical Muslims and Hindus.

Then let it thrive doubly..

The Church has always thrived when persecuted.

Doesnt make persecution somehow "right"

If you actually read the article, you will see that Christianity is the single worst persecuted group in the world, and no one seems to do anything about it. Certianly Islam doesnt recieve anything like this much persecution yet everyone is rushing to its aid to defend it from simple politiacal incorrectness.
i don't agree with the conclusion you (or the article) has drawn. i think many groups are far more persecuted than Christians (women spring to mind), and i think a great deal of the "persecution" being suffered by Christians is brought upon them by their own actions. this does NOT mean i think all Christians deserve to be persecuted, or that all persecution of Christians is justified, and i certainly don't think the persecution of Christians should be overlooked or shrugged off. but i think it is laughable to claim Christians are the most persecuted group in the world.

No I think probably Buddists and Sikhs are the most persecuted religious groups, and their persecution is usually at the hands of radical Muslims and Hindus.

Had you read the article you would know that isnt true.

There are now more than 300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith — more than any other religion. Christians are no longer, as far as I am aware, thrown to the lions. But from China, North Korea and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, they are subjected to legalised discrimination, violence, imprisonment, relocation and forced conversion.

If you actually read the article, you will see that Christianity is the single worst persecuted group in the world, and no one seems to do anything about it. Certianly Islam doesnt recieve anything like this much persecution yet everyone is rushing to its aid to defend it from simple politiacal incorrectness.
I read it ... hadly proves that it is "the single worst persecuted group"

but i think it is laughable to claim Christians are the most persecuted group in the world.

And why is that?

I have heard several people complain on this forum that Christians complain about being "the victim" when they aren't. Well please read this article and tell me Christians are not victims.

It's not good to persecute any group of people. What's the point?

Doesnt make persecution somehow "right"
Never said it did, but what if that's the plan God has for the Church just now? Hmmm?

I read it ... hadly proves that it is "the single worst persecuted group"
yeah, it basically just says Christians are persecuted a lot, but provides no hard evidence supporting the claim that Christians are persecuted MOST. nobody is arguing that Christians aren't persecuted at all, but it's pretty obvious to anybody who has traveled or studied modern history that Christians are a long way from being the most persecuted group world wide.

If you actually read the article, you will see that Christianity is the single worst persecuted group in the world, and no one seems to do anything about it. Certianly Islam doesnt recieve anything like this much persecution yet everyone is rushing to its aid to defend it from simple politiacal incorrectness.

Depends on where you are. Moslems seem to have no problem abusing each other, depending on what group they're in.

It's a human thing. You're not like the others, so you get the shaft.

It's not good to persecute any group of people. What's the point?

That everyone seems to ignore it and not do nearly enough about it given the severity of the problem

yeah, it basically just says Christians are persecuted a lot, but provides no hard evidence supporting the claim that Christians are persecuted MOST. nobody is arguing that Christians aren't persecuted at all, but it's pretty obvious to anybody who has traveled or studied modern history that Christians are a long way from being the most persecuted group world wide.

If you can find a group with a larger number than 300 million people persecuted at once I may listen to you.

yeah, it basically just says Christians are persecuted a lot, but provides no hard evidence supporting the claim that Christians are persecuted MOST. nobody is arguing that Christians aren't persecuted at all, but it's pretty obvious to anybody who has traveled or studied modern history that Christians are a long way from being the most persecuted group world wide.
As well as doing their fair share of persucuting (I am willing to bet that they have the most incedences of perseucuting as well) but not sure there is a way to accuratly gauge that

As well as doing their fair share of persucuting (I am willing to bet that they have the most incedences of perseucuting as well) but not sure there is a way to accuratly gauge that

In modern times? Becaue that what this document is talking about. Today there are over 300 million Christians in fear of death because of their faith. Now tell me that TODAY Christians do the same thing to anyone else? (By TODAY I mean without talking about the crusades and the inquisiton)

If you can find a group with a larger number than 300 million people persecuted at once I may listen to you.
Does not have to ... it is an obvious flaw in the source of information ... throwing out a large number and daring others to find higher

Not to mention where that little statistic even came from ... a survey would be nice to know if we are going to take your article as fact

If you can find a group with a larger number than 300 million people persecuted at once I may listen to you.
even though there is no reason for me to rise to this challenge, since you have given me no reason to believe your number is accurate or supported by fact, i still have no problem responding because the answer is easy and obvious: women.

No I think probably Buddists and Sikhs are the most persecuted religious groups, and their persecution is usually at the hands of radical Muslims and Hindus.

Sikhs and Buddhists aren't really persecuted in India. The Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, and he is highly respected by people of all ethnicities in the country. Also a large portion of the Indian military leadership are Sikhs, who have a historical tradition of military service. The Sikhs clashed with the government in the past but the violence was mainly initiated by Sikh rebels, and Hindus were not interested in religious disputes with Sikhism. Eventually all sides made peace.

In modern times? Becaue that what this document is talking about. Today there are over 300 million Christians in fear of death because of their faith. Now tell me that TODAY Christians do the same thing to anyone else?
Yup :) look at the arguements in ireland ;) they are both perseucutors and persucutees's

(by the way I wonder how thoes numbers count into your 300 mil)

...no one freeking cares....this is just you whining 'cause you feel picked on or something...hello? everyone is picked on for their beliefs...you guys are just being stupid and pissy and decide to declare that you get it the most...well darling considering you guys make up the majority of what religious beliefs there are I'd say that's a big..uh..no? probably the people most picked on are atheist...or mormons and seventh day adventists or jahovahs witnesses...stop complaining and get over yourselves...go worship something or something...

no sweat: women.
I think he ment religous group but yes that is deffinatly a large group (though we dont know the stats for that) well you might but I dont :p

even though there is no reason for me to rise to this challenge, since you have given me no reason to believe your number is accurate or supported by fact, i still have no problem responding because the answer is easy and obvious: women.

Oh yes, because the 50% female population of earth exist under threat of death and legal perescution for being women, I think not :rolleyes:

Does not have to ... it is an obvious flaw in the source of information ... throwing out a large number and daring others to find higher

Not to mention where that little statistic even came from ... a survey would be nice to know if we are going to take your article as fact

Arent you one of those who said that they would accept infomation on the grounds of where it was published. Well do you know where this was published? The spectator. Look it up

http://www.spectator.co.uk/index.php

yeah, it basically just says Christians are persecuted a lot, but provides no hard evidence supporting the claim that Christians are persecuted MOST. nobody is arguing that Christians aren't persecuted at all, but it's pretty obvious to anybody who has traveled or studied modern history that Christians are a long way from being the most persecuted group world wide.

exactly...it only talks about how persecuted christians are and focuses on it while if more research was done on the persecution of other less common religions by christians even...it would definatly be higher...

Oh yes, because the 50% female population of earth exist under threat of death and legal perescution for being women, I think not :rolleyes:

Muslim women being forced to wear veils? And not being allowed to drive cars? Or very often, leave the house? Mormon men marrying more than 7 wives? Forced marriages? That's not "legal persecution"?

Oh yes, because the 50% female population of earth exist under threat of death and legal perescution for being women, I think not :rolleyes:

Even if only 10% of women are treated as such, which is possible, it'd be more than the 300 million christians you claim.

wah wah. typical christian whining. Nobody knows the trouble i've sen....etc etc.


poor christians. maybe you need to start a new crusade or an inquisition.....

Muslim women being forced to wear veils? And not being allowed to drive cars? Or very often, leave the house? Mormon men marrying more than 7 wives? Forced marriages? That's not "legal persecution"?


mormons don't do that...but okay sure.... ;)

To the poor, poor dear who seems to think that "christians" are persucuted, please come to the United States where the term "christian" is used as a weapon by our southern baptists (who are in no way, even remotly Christian), who persecute anyone with and I.Q. over 50 who actually thinks for themselves and tries to be a true follower of Jesus Christ

Oh yes, because the 50% female population of earth exist under threat of death and legal perescution for being women, I think not :rolleyes:
if you don't believe that the majority of women worldwide are subject to unequal and unjust treatment based on their gender, then i would like to know under which rock at the bottom of which ocean you have been hiding. even many the most modern nations in the world continue to display unequal treatment based on gender, and the majority of nations have blatant and legislated inequalities. it wouldn't take 50% of women being persecuted to thoroughly trump your outrageous 300 million figure, anyhow, so where are you pulling these numbers from?

but hey, just because the majority of countries in the world institutionalize oppression of women, and just because centuries of tradition and law in the Western world was designed specifically to deny equal treatment to females, and just because there is historical and factual data to support all this, none of that is any particular reason why you should admit that maybe (just maybe) Christians aren't being picked on the most. by all means, continue reinforcing the stereotype of the Christian persecution complex...it's always fun to see people living up to the worst generalizations about themselves :P.

mormons don't do that...but okay sure.... ;)

Sorry. It was one of those Christian sects, I apologize for my ignorance. :(. But I think my point was made.

exactly...it only talks about how persecuted christians are and focuses on it while if more research was done on the persecution of other less common religions by christians even...it would definatly be higher...

Legal discrimination, use of violence, imprisonment? Are you sure, perhaps you can provide examples?

Arent you one of those who said that they would accept infomation on the grounds of where it was published. Well do you know where this was published? The spectator. Look it up

http://www.spectator.co.uk/index.php
Nope I trust NO source's statistics unless the cite it or post basic things such as confidence levels and regression analysis. (sorry but networking is a statistics major I have been in WAY too many statistics classes to get suckered by that)

and who cares who is persectued the most i mean what kind of life do you have to not have to sit down a right an "i'm gunna bitch about my life and my situation cuz i'm sad" article...guess what..we're all persecuted for our beliefs dear :eek: you aren't alone i suggest you wake up and realize you aren't the only person being persecuted and you aren't the only person with problems :rolleyes:

if you don't believe that the majority of women worldwide are subject to unequal and unjust treatment based on their gender, then i would like to know under which rock at the bottom of which ocean you have been hiding. even many the most modern nations in the world continue to display unequal treatment based on gender, and the majority of nations have blatant and legislated inequalities. it wouldn't take 50% of women being persecuted to thoroughly trump your outrageous 300 million figure, anyhow, so where are you pulling these numbers from?


While I agree there is unfair treetement to women, women are not under threat of death or imprisonment or vilonce (IE women cannot become citizens of X country) just for being women. They are in certian cases more likely to be victims of certian forms of persecution but not certian. When I say persecution I do not mean just the employment regulations or millitary positions like women are discriminated against. I am talking about actuall physical persecution, pain of death just for being a women, no other crime.

Legal discrimination, use of violence, imprisonment? Are you sure, perhaps you can provide examples?

i have more of a life then to sit down and map out for you your ignorance...

Had you read the article you would know that isnt true.
But from China, North Korea and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, they are subjected to legalised discrimination, violence, imprisonment, relocation and forced conversion.

You quote this as if it is somehow a bad thing.

Even if only 10% of women are treated as such, which is possible, it'd be more than the 300 million christians you claim.

There is nowhere in the world that puts women under threat of death for just being a women. There are countries where women are more likely to be victimised by the judical system because they are women but thats completely diffrent to what I am talking about. Chrisitians in these situations are persecuted for no other reason than BEING a CHRISTIAN. If you can find me an area where women are put under threat of death in the same way for just BEING women and nothing else then I may begin to see your point.

You quote this as if it is somehow a bad thing.

Excuse me!! What are you saying?

This article uses clever wordplay to display Christians as the subject of persecution; when clearly a better term would be "Christians are one group involved in a worldwide increase in religious tension."

I'll use these paragraphs as examples;

"Last year in China, which has about 70 million Christians, more than 100 ‘house churches’ were closed down, and dozens of priests imprisoned. If you join the Communist party, you get special privileges, but you can only join if you are atheist. In North Korea, Christians are persecuted as anti-communist elements, and dissidents claim they are not just imprisoned but used in chemical warfare experiments."

***Look closely on the sentance about Communist party participation; its says that only Atheists can join. How is that specifically anti-Christian? Its anti-EVERYONE. The Chinese reputation on organized religions of ALL kinds is poor; Buddhists and Muslims are also subject to some pretty nasty laws. So the article forces your mind to THINK that the "athiest only" policy targets Christians above all by discussing the 100 churches that were closed just before it mentions the law. Its clever; but misleading.

"Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Barnabas Trust, which helps persecuted Christians, blames rising global religious tension. ‘More and more Christians are seen as the odd ones out — they are seen as transplants from the West, and not really trusted. It is getting very much worse."

***Here the article lets slip that what the world is experiencing is an general rise in global religious tension, not an actively anti-Christian movement. Christians are not excluded from the tension by any means, but that hardly means they bear the brunt of it.

"Even in what was, before multiculturalism, known as Christendom, Christians are persecuted. I have spoken to dozens of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity in Britain, and who are shunned by their community, subjected to mob violence, forced out of town, threatened with death and even kidnapped. The Barnabas Trust knows of 3,000 such Christians facing persecution in this country, but the police and government do nothing."

***The sentance seems particularly ugly to my eyes. Look at the way it equates land so strongly with religion; if anything it seems to reinforce the perceptions of persecution, this time casting it into a "West versus the rest of the world" debate. It goes on to give examples of the Muslim community's intolerance towards recent converts to Christianity.

***This seems particularly inflammatory, considering it is well known that Britian has a largle poplulation of radical clerics who sought refuge there. Such extremist reactions to converts are well known in places with extemists in charge, how is it proof or a larger trend? The article uses a well-known problem to illustrate its assumptions about a much larger theory.

***The article frequently toys with words and "evidence" in this manner. Its whole argument is very strange; like a call to arms. Yet the author specifically mentions their own political background at the end of the article in their "defense" setting themselves as a third party while making extermely inflamatory comments. It seems to me that this article is very suspect; its examples are questionable, its arguments tricky to pin down, and its conclusion difficult to justify.

Excuse me!! What are you saying?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the very heart and core of the Christian religion is the story of a guy being persecuted, tortured and put to death for the things he believes, no? Without that narrative it is meaningless: persecution is a central tenet of Christianity.

Today there are over 300 million Christians in fear of death because of their faith....

Not according to the source you cited.

This article uses clever wordplay to display Christians as the subject of persecution; when clearly a better term would be "Christians are one group involved in a worldwide increase in religious tension."

I'll use these paragraphs as examples;

"Last year in China, which has about 70 million Christians, more than 100 ‘house churches’ were closed down, and dozens of priests imprisoned. If you join the Communist party, you get special privileges, but you can only join if you are atheist. In North Korea, Christians are persecuted as anti-communist elements, and dissidents claim they are not just imprisoned but used in chemical warfare experiments."

***Look closely on the sentance about Communist party participation; its says that only Atheists can join. How is that specifically anti-Christian? Its anti-EVERYONE. The Chinese reputation on organized religions of ALL kinds is poor; Buddhists and Muslims are also subject to some pretty nasty laws. So the article forces your mind to THINK that the "athiest only" policy targets Christians above all by discussing the 100 churches that were closed just before it mentions the law. Its clever; but misleading.

"Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Barnabas Trust, which helps persecuted Christians, blames rising global religious tension. ‘More and more Christians are seen as the odd ones out — they are seen as transplants from the West, and not really trusted. It is getting very much worse."

***Here the article lets slip that what the world is experiencing is an general rise in global religious tension, not an actively anti-Christian movement. Christians are not excluded from the tension by any means, but that hardly means they bear the brunt of it.

"Even in what was, before multiculturalism, known as Christendom, Christians are persecuted. I have spoken to dozens of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity in Britain, and who are shunned by their community, subjected to mob violence, forced out of town, threatened with death and even kidnapped. The Barnabas Trust knows of 3,000 such Christians facing persecution in this country, but the police and government do nothing."

***The sentance seems particularly ugly to my eyes. Look at the way it equates land so strongly with religion; if anything it seems to reinforce the perceptions of persecution, this time casting it into a "West versus the rest of the world" debate. It goes on to give examples of the Muslim community's intolerance towards recent converts to Christianity.

***This seems particularly inflammatory, considering it is well known that Britian has a largle poplulation of radical clerics who sought refuge there. Such extremist reactions to converts are well known in places with extemists in charge, how is it proof or a larger trend? The article uses a well-known problem to illustrate its assumptions about a much larger theory.

***The article frequently toys with words and "evidence" in this manner. Its whole argument is very strange; like a call to arms. Yet the author specifically mentions their own political background at the end of the article in their "defense" setting themselves as a third party while making extermely inflamatory comments. It seems to me that this article is very suspect; its examples are questionable, its arguments tricky to pin down, and its conclusion difficult to justify.


Again why I would like to get hold of the survey they actualy took for this ... they are counting anti everyone as anti christian when it is a subgroup of the total not subject to additive in pressent state (possibly by a break down by religions in the area of the "anti everyone" instance with a portion going to christianity)

Fishy study

Not according to the source you cited.

Shall I actually quote it to you

There are now more than 300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith — more than any other religion. Christians are no longer, as far as I am aware, thrown to the lions. But from China, North Korea and Malaysia, through India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey, they are subjected to legalised discrimination, violence,

Last year in China, which has about 70 million Christians, more than 100 ‘house churches’ were closed down, and dozens of priests imprisoned. If you join the Communist party, you get special privileges, but you can only join if you are atheist.
This is completely incorrect. You do not have to be atheist to join the Communist party. Also, the Chinese government gives money to churches, maintains all the historical cathedrals in the country, and has helped build new churches. The Communist Party actively participates in religious life, and government money is used to build hundreds of churches, mosques, Buddhist temples, and various other religious places. Of course, religions in China are required to register and religious people are required to take an oath of loyalty to the government. I don't see how this is different from the USA's Pledge of Allegiance. The major point of contention with Christians is that Catholic priests are not allowed to publically affirm the supremacy of the Pope. Any religious group, whether Christian or not, that preaches against war is always arrested, because the government fears that pacifists would oppose unification of Taiwan through war.

Yup :) look at the arguements in ireland ;) they are both perseucutors and persucutees's
There are a few religious wackos remaining in Northern Ireland (Ian Paisley & co.) but Christians are no longer persecuted here.

Not according to the source you cited.
There is that too lol ... I am still upset that he thinks that I will take anything published from ANY source at face value :) specialy surveys

There are a few religious wackos remaining in Northern Ireland (Ian Paisley & co.) but Christians are no longer persecuted here.
Good to hear it! no one should be persecuted

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the very heart and core of the Christian religion is the story of a guy being persecuted, tortured and put to death for the things he believes, no? Without that narrative it is meaningless: persecution is a central tenet of Christianity.

That doesnt make the fact that they are peresecuted somehow OK and morraly right

This is completely incorrect. You do not have to be atheist to join the Communist party. Also, the Chinese government gives money to churches, maintains all the historical cathedrals in the country, and has helped build new churches. The Communist Party actively participates in religious life, and government money is used to build hundreds of churches, mosques, Buddhist temples, and various other religious places. Of course, religions in China are required to register and religious people are required to take an oath of loyalty to the government. I don't see how this is different from the USA's Pledge of Allegiance. The major point of contention with Christians is that Catholic priests are not allowed to publically affirm the supremacy of the Pope. Any religious group, whether Christian or not, that preaches against war is always arrested, because the government fears that pacifists would oppose unification of Taiwan through war.

You might also add that persecuted groups such as Falun Gong are not Christian.

There is nowhere in the world that puts women under threat of death for just being a women. There are countries where women are more likely to be victimised by the judical system because they are women but thats completely diffrent to what I am talking about. Chrisitians in these situations are persecuted for no other reason than BEING a CHRISTIAN. If you can find me an area where women are put under threat of death in the same way for just BEING women and nothing else then I may begin to see your point.

being a christian and being a woman are different things..but women are persecuted for being a women in some places and if they show any skin they get...stoned to death..and not with hallucinagens with rocks...being christian is a beleif you can change being a woman is something you're born with it's totally not the same and for you to compare them is being completly irrelevant...and how can christians be the most persecuted when...christianity is THe religion...it's like the basic religion of the majority of the world...i think it was like...christianity judaism and then catholicism or hinduism in the order of most practiced...

Shall I actually quote it to you

There are now more than 300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith — more than any other religion.

You are lumping in those claimed to face violence (not neccessarily threat of death) with those who are legally discriminated against, and claiming that they are all in fear of death: later in the article it states that only 200 million face violence

Dr Paul Marshall, senior fellow at the Centre for Religious Freedom in Washington, estimates that there are 200 million Christians who face violence because of their faith, and 350 million who face legally sanctioned discrimination in terms of access to jobs and housing.

Shall I actually quote it to you
And I will point out the OR

By no means does that mean that many are in fear of their lives ... there could be 1 person that is in fear of their life and the rest just discriminated

Your source is vague in this area
(and later clames different total of 200 mil)

This is completely incorrect. You do not have to be atheist to join the Communist party. Also, the Chinese government gives money to churches, maintains all the historical cathedrals in the country, and has helped build new churches. The Communist Party actively participates in religious life, and government money is used to build hundreds of churches, mosques, Buddhist temples, and various other religious places. Of course, religions in China are required to register and religious people are required to take an oath of loyalty to the government. I don't see how this is different from the USA's Pledge of Allegiance. The major point of contention with Christians is that Catholic priests are not allowed to publically affirm the supremacy of the Pope. Any religious group, whether Christian or not, that preaches against war is always arrested, because the government fears that pacifists would oppose unification of Taiwan through war.

Can you give a source for this. I actually know people who went to Thialand before the Tsunami for a meeting of Christans from all over the world. There he met Chinese Christans who had witnessed their friends being arrested and their churchs being raided and people arrested because of their faith.

There are a few religious wackos remaining in Northern Ireland (Ian Paisley & co.) but Christians are no longer persecuted here.

Explain to me how Paisley falls into the category of wacko, would you? He is certainly no more of a wacko than the Pope.

"Last year in China, which has about 70 million Christians, more than 100 ‘house churches’ were closed down, and dozens of priests imprisoned. If you join the Communist party, you get special privileges, but you can only join if you are atheist. In North Korea, Christians are persecuted as anti-communist elements, and dissidents claim they are not just imprisoned but used in chemical warfare experiments."

***Look closely on the sentance about Communist party participation; its says that only Atheists can join. How is that specifically anti-Christian? Its anti-EVERYONE. The Chinese reputation on organized religions of ALL kinds is poor; Buddhists and Muslims are also subject to some pretty nasty laws. So the article forces your mind to THINK that the "athiest only" policy targets Christians above all by discussing the 100 churches that were closed just before it mentions the law. Its clever; but misleading.

Although I agree that Christians in China lead far better lives than Neo Cannen would suggest, it is true that Muslims are not as persecuted in China as other groups. This is because of the extremely violent Turkic rebellion in Northwest China spread terrorist attacks throughout the country ever since the 1950s, though by the 1990s the government has made far-reaching concessions to Muslims to calm them down. For example Chinese Muslims get huge amounts of money from the government for their schools and mosques. Generally, the government stays out of the way of Muslims as long as they don't preach separatism.

Explain to me how Paisley falls into the category of wacko, would you? He is certainly no more of a wacko than the Pope.

Paisley doesn't wear a funny hat.

That doesnt make the fact that they are peresecuted somehow OK and morraly right

Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven - there is justification for you, straight from the mouth of Jesus, no?

Good to hear it! no one should be persecuted

lol...i'm glad you think that...but sadly everyone's persecuted...and that's just how it works :(

being a christian and being a woman are different things..but women are persecuted for being a women in some places and if they show any skin they get...stoned to death..and not with hallucinagens with rocks...being christian is a beleif you can change being a woman is something you're born with it's totally not the same and for you to compare them is being completly irrelevant

I wasnt the one to compare them, it was Bottle. And yes they are diffrent but women are not persecuted for being women. Obviously there are regions of the world which are evil to women but not in the same way as Christians, who are peresecuted simpley for what they are.

All believers in ANY religion are victims;victims of stupidity. Let there be more piss taking of every religion and show them all up for the ridiculous set of unsupported fairytales that each and every one is. Lets face it, if you're prepared to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence, you deserve to be laughed at...



Hmmm, yet your screename is satanic debauchery, hence from satan, another "fairytale"

Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven - there is justification for you, straight from the mouth of Jesus, no?

Yes, but that still doesnt make killing people and torturing them becaues of their faith somehow right. Jesus here is blessing the persecuted not the persecutors.

Shall I actually quote it to you

I'd be careful about that patronising tone, if I were you.

You said, in your post:

"Today there are over 300 million Christians in fear of death because of their faith.... "

The source you cited says something very different:

"300 million Christians who are either threatened with violence or legally discriminated against simply because of their faith"

And, goes on to explain that violence (still not 'death) is a risk for a smaller number, and that number is just an estimate (which means actual NO evidence):

"estimates that there are 200 million Christians who face violence because of their faith..."

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Yes, but that still doesnt make killing people and torturing them somehow right.
Which is no where in your article

Just the threat of violence ... it does not give stats for killing nor torturing

Nor is it clear on the amout under "threat" nor is it clear where it gets that number

Yes, but that still doesnt make killing people and torturing them somehow right.

Why not? - you agree that it is through being killed or tortured that Christians become blessed, yes?

I wasnt the one to compare them, it was Bottle. And yes they are diffrent but women are not persecuted for being women. Obviously there are regions of the world which are evil to women but not in the same way as Christians, who are peresecuted simpley for what they are.

christianity is not what you are dear it's what you beleive...just forget about the women it is totally irrelevant in this situation..you are a woman..you beleive in christianity...to yourself a christian doesn't mean you ARE a christian you are a beleiver of christianity...it's NOT the same

I am talking about actuall physical persecution, pain of death just for being a women, no other crime.
Ever heard of female genital mutilation?

You quote this as if it is somehow a bad thing.
It is a bad thing.

Neo, as a fellow Christian, I would remind you that we're supposed to be persecuted - it's in the Book.

I'd be careful about that patronising tone, if I were you.

You said, in your post:



The source you cited says something very different:



And, goes on to explain that violence (still not 'death) is a risk for a smaller number, and that number is just an estimate (which means actual NO evidence):
Exactly :) and so much better stated then me

Why not? - you agree that it is through being killed or tortured that Christians become blessed, yes?

Yes, but that doesnt mean its right for people to do that to them. "Thou shalt not kill" ring any bells.

Isnt it interesting how everyone ignores the content and critises the publisher when something isnt peer reviewed and then attacks the content and ignores the pubisher when something IS peer reviewed.

Yes, but that doesnt mean its right for people to do that to them. "Thou shalt not kill" ring any bells.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 'Thou shalt not kill' is one of the Christian commandments (obviously), so why should it apply to those who are not of that faith? If you are standing outside of the Christian religion, then it has no authority over you.

Neo, as a fellow Christian, I would remind you that we're supposed to be persecuted - it's in the Book.

oh for bloody hell's sake everyone one is freeking persecuted get over it :mad:

All believers in ANY religion are victims;victims of stupidity. Let there be more piss taking of every religion and show them all up for the ridiculous set of unsupported fairytales that each and every one is. Lets face it, if you're prepared to believe in something for which there is absolutely no evidence, you deserve to be laughed at...
Tone it down, Satanic Debauchery. You need to find a way to express yourself without being this insulting. Check the Glossary of Forbidden Actions (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=288255) for the definition of trolling and flamebait. You'll find that this sort of post qualifies as such.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

I wasnt the one to compare them, it was Bottle. And yes they are diffrent but women are not persecuted for being women. Obviously there are regions of the world which are evil to women but not in the same way as Christians, who are peresecuted simpley for what they are.

Could you be any more wrong?

Christians are (in some places, I'm sure) persecuted... for their belief, not for what they are.

Women are (in some places, also) persecuted... for what they are... not for what they believe.

Incredibly wrong, Neo.... even by your own special standards.

Yes, but that doesnt mean its right for people to do that to them. "Thou shalt not kill" ring any bells.

ahem...mr christian...how dare you not know...it's thou shalt not murder...tsk tsk...for shame! the ten commandments you don't even know them...how could you know any of this other stuff! :eek:

oh for bloody hell's sake everyone one is freeking persecuted get over it :mad:

Yes, I keep saying that, but Neo isn't listening.

Could you be any more wrong?

Christians are (in some places, I'm sure) persecuted... for their belief, not for what they are.

Women are (in some places, also) persecuted... for what they are... not for what they believe.

Incredibly wrong, Neo.... even by your own special standards.

beautifully put :)

It is a bad thing.

Why? The Christians are attempting to overthrow non-Christian society and replace it with their 'Kingdom of Heaven on Earth' - is it right to stand by and let them do this just because they are a religious group, rather than a purely politcal group that we may disagree with?

Could you be any more wrong?

Christians are (in some places, I'm sure) persecuted... for their belief, not for what they are.

Women are (in some places, also) persecuted... for what they are... not for what they believe.

Incredibly wrong, Neo.... even by your own special standards.

Stop playing with cemantics of language Grave

No country exists as male only, they dont see a women and go out and torture/imprison here becauses she is a women

Unlike Christians who are tortrued and imprisoned becuase they are Christians

I am sorry you have never heard the expression "Being a Christian" so in future, I will make it more clear.

Yes, but that doesnt mean its right for people to do that to them. "Thou shalt not kill" ring any bells.

Persecuted does not only mean killed (we'll let slide the fact it is murder not kill).

If it did then your "300 Million" would be even less.

Yes, I keep saying that, but Neo isn't listening.

Find me a nation where Muslims are perseucted in a similar way, then find me a number of Muslims larger than 300 million who are persecuted in a similar way.

Yes, I keep saying that, but Neo isn't listening.

Neo seems not to listen...seems to be the stubborn..I'm right you're wrong and I won't see it anyother way type... :rolleyes: how annoying..

Find me a nation where Muslims are perseucted in a similar way, then find me a number of Muslims larger than 300 million who are persecuted in a similar way.

What an interesting manichean world you seem to be living in.

Roast A Mawsshmallow!

Find me a nation where Muslims are perseucted in a similar way, then find me a number of Muslims larger than 300 million who are persecuted in a similar way.
Persecuted in what way ... your source does not make it clear on a break down of persecution ... how can we find you stats to compare to your shaky ones

Stop playing with cemantics of language Grave

No country exists as male only, they dont see a women and go out and torture/imprison here becauses she is a women

Unlike Christians who are tortrued and imprisoned becuase they are Christians

I am sorry you have never heard the expression "Being a Christian" so in future, I will make it more clear.

do you know that for sure neo? you didn't even know it was "thou shalt not murder" not thou shalt not kill as YOU so wrongly stated..and you can't BE a christian Being a christian is simply a mistake in words...you are a believer of the christian faith..you are not in all A CHRISTIAN as you would be A WOMAN...there's a huge difference..

Hmmm, yet your screename is satanic debauchery, hence from satan, another "fairytale"

Well spotted! And you win this weeks Cleverest Believer Prize; a day out to see some lions!

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but 'Thou shalt not kill' is one of the Christian commandments (obviously), so why should it apply to those who are not of that faith? If you are standing outside of the Christian religion, then it has no authority over you.

What I was saying is that just because Christians expect persecution, doesnt make the Christian religion tollerant of that peresecution and believe its somehow OK. Its not.

What I was saying is that just because Christians expect persecution, doesnt make the Christian religion tollerant of that peresecution and believe its somehow OK. Its not.
Then we get into relitivistic moral arguement :p not sure we want to go there lol

Exactly :) and so much better stated then me

Thank you... I notice that I am not the only one that has pointed out Neo's 'math problem'.

:)

Just so that everyone knows that "christian Europe" doesn't persecute christians as badly as the article presumes: Rocco Buttiglione was hounded out of office for his ultra-consertvative views on gays and the role of women.

Thank you... I notice that I am not the only one that has pointed out Neo's 'math problem'.

:)
No ... but a lot of it has to do with how murky that damn source is ... but what can you expect from something ment to appeal to "popular" demand

What I was saying is that just because Christians expect persecution, doesnt make the Christian religion tollerant of that peresecution and believe its somehow OK. Its not.

http://www.canadianlawsite.com/10commandments.htm Thou shalt not murder...not Thou shalt not kill...if you don't know the ten highlights of the bible which you so "graciously" worship you shouldn't even move on to bitch about how persecuted you are for it..

If you actually read the article, you will see that Christianity is the single worst persecuted group in the world, and no one seems to do anything about it. Certianly Islam doesnt recieve anything like this much persecution yet everyone is rushing to its aid to defend it from simple politiacal incorrectness.

That's because no proof is ever provided. You keep trying to say that in Saudi Arabia, Christians are so persecuted and churches are banned, etc etc, but you've been shown proof time and time and time again that it simply isn't true.

So why do you keep saying it? Simple: You're trolling. Stop it.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that the only true thing said in that article is that non-Muslims aren't allowed in Makkah. That's true. They're not. That isn't persecution, though, because entering Makkah is a privilege, not a right.

Christians don't let gay men be scout leaders, but I'm willing to bet you have no problem with that. Islam is an exclusive club and its clubhouse is for members only.

everyone everywhere has been persecuted in some way. throughout history different religions are always going after one another. christians aren't in any way special enough to be exempt from persecution. and if i remember correctly the spanish inquisition was pretty damned horrible but i guess that doesn't matter since the catholics did the persecutin'. now let's do something constructive and whine about how I'M persecuted for being white.

What I was saying is that just because Christians expect persecution, doesnt make the Christian religion tollerant of that peresecution and believe its somehow OK. Its not.

But without persecution, Christianity is meaningless: yes? If Jesus had died an old man after a life of peace and freedom then Christianity would have been a very different beast.

You are also ignoring the fact that the suffering in this world that Christians undergo as a result of persecution isn't actually real suffering, according to Christian doctrine itself: the only true reality is that of the Divine/the afterlife, and so all suffering on Earth is only apparent, but not real.

Stop playing with cemantics of language Grave

No country exists as male only, they dont see a women and go out and torture/imprison here becauses she is a women

Unlike Christians who are tortrued and imprisoned becuase they are Christians

I am sorry you have never heard the expression "Being a Christian" so in future, I will make it more clear.

It's not 'semantics', Neo.

A woman is born a woman... she is 'built' as a woman, she has no choice.

In many areas of the world - even in some of those corners our vanity likes to tell us are civilised - women are very much treated as second-class citizens. Degraded, given secondary treatment, discriminated against... and yes, even killed for being 'what they are'. (Try doing a websearch on "Honour Killings" among Turkish immigrants.


A christian cannot be 'born'. You are not 'born' with a belief - of any religion. So - at some point, you find yourself under conviction, or you 'chose' to believe. You COULD be something other, and the fact that people DO change faiths, is evidence that you CAN.

Even if christians ARE being persecuted (and I still find your source speculative, at best) - they are being persecuted for something they DO... something they COULD change. A woman is persecuted for what she IS.

Similarly... what about 'Blacks'? You are aware, of course, that colour of skin is not a choice? What about Asians? What about homosexuals?

Your source sounds like the over-dramatisation of someone who WANTS to feel persecuted, and is pointing out 'how bad' they have it - whilst blissfully ignoring the fact that - for the most part - they belong to one of the most privileged sections of the planets' population.

What about Christian women, Neo?

http://www.canadianlawsite.com/10commandments.htm Thou shalt not murder...not Thou shalt not kill...if you don't know the ten highlights of the bible which you so "graciously" worship you shouldn't even move on to bitch about how persecuted you are for it..

It all depends upon which translation you of the Bible you favour, and how they translate the word Ratsach: some render it as 'murder', others as 'kill'.

Neo, I've got to wonder: how much of your spiritual life is consumed in wondering what happens to Christians 12,000 miles away from you, and how much is spent on your own salvation?

IYou are not 'born' with a belief - of any religion.

unless you're the dalai lama ;) but that's besides the point

Well spotted! And you win this weeks Cleverest Believer Prize; a day out to see some lions!

No, never said i was a believer, but what would u rather believe in, some "mythical" deity with omniscient powers, or some other human providing you with "physical evidence" that the earth was created 5.9 billion years ago or we all come from apes, that 99% of the ppl on earth dont understand.

the only true reality is that of the Divine/the afterlife, and so all suffering on Earth is only apparent, but not real.

...and I'll huff and I'll puff...

It all depends upon which translation you of the Bible you favour, and how they translate the word Ratsach: some render it as 'murder', others as 'kill'.

the more accurate rendition of it is murder...

Chrisitians in these situations are persecuted for no other reason than BEING a CHRISTIAN. If you can find me an area where women are put under threat of death in the same way for just BEING women and nothing else then I may begin to see your point.

Then I suggest you pick up a rifle and go do something about it. I submit that you, Neo, have never once in your life known what persecution is aside from what you've read in a newspaper over a nice breakfast in your airconditioned home.

No, never said i was a believer, but what would u rather believe in, some "mythical" deity with omniscient powers, or some other human providing you with "physical evidence" that the earth was created 5.9 billion years ago or we all come from apes, that 99% of the ppl on earth dont understand.

there is no evidence of god..people just don't understand where we came from..so naturally we created him...

"God did not create people, people created God"
-Voltaire

Find me a nation where Muslims are perseucted in a similar way, then find me a number of Muslims larger than 300 million who are persecuted in a similar way.

See? This is what it always comes down to with you. Muslim vs. Christian.

Guess what, kiddo, there is no war between Christians and Muslims and there hasn't been one for 1,000 years. If there were, you'd know it. Trust me.

You continue to use lies and conjecture in an attempt to prove Christianity to be superior to Islam, yet complain in moderation when someone "flames" during your trolling attempts.

I'm thinking you've come to the wrong place. Not one person has stood up and agreed with you or wished to join your crusade. I get the impression I'm talking to Jesussaves' little brother.

Oh forget it. What's the point.

Then I suggest you pick up a rifle and go do something about it. I submit that you, Neo, have never once in your life known what persecution is aside from what you've read in a newspaper over a nice breakfast in your airconditioned home.

Keru, now we'll see him on CNN in an orange jumpsuit...

... or some other human providing you with "physical evidence" that the earth was created 5.9 billion years ago or we all come from apes, that 99% of the ppl on earth dont understand.

Technically 'from simians' rather than 'from apes'.

Technically 'from simians' rather than 'from apes'.

I thought it was primates.

It's not 'semantics', Neo.

A woman is born a woman... she is 'built' as a woman, she has no choice.

In many areas of the world - even in some of those corners our vanity likes to tell us are civilised - women are very much treated as second-class citizens. Degraded, given secondary treatment, discriminated against... and yes, even killed for being 'what they are'. (Try doing a websearch on "Honour Killings" among Turkish immigrants.


A christian cannot be 'born'. You are not 'born' with a belief - of any religion. So - at some point, you find yourself under conviction, or you 'chose' to believe. You COULD be something other, and the fact that people DO change faiths, is evidence that you CAN.

Even if christians ARE being persecuted (and I still find your source speculative, at best) - they are being persecuted for something they DO... something they COULD change. A woman is persecuted for what she IS.

Similarly... what about 'Blacks'? You are aware, of course, that colour of skin is not a choice? What about Asians? What about homosexuals?

Your source sounds like the over-dramatisation of someone who WANTS to feel persecuted, and is pointing out 'how bad' they have it - whilst blissfully ignoring the fact that - for the most part - they belong to one of the most privileged sections of the planets' population.

What about Christian women, Neo?


Surely that could be used to justify a dictatorship, as people can CHOOSE their political belief, they are not born with it, and they COULD change it?

Can you give a source for this. I actually know people who went to Thialand before the Tsunami for a meeting of Christans from all over the world. There he met Chinese Christans who had witnessed their friends being arrested and their churchs being raided and people arrested because of their faith.

Go visit the Chinese Protestant Church's official website.
EDIT: Crap, original link not working.

Go to http://world.altavista.com/
Do a web page translation of:
http://www.chineseprotestantchurch.org.cn/1.asp
Make sure the language setting is Chinese Simpliified --> English

Sure, it is the official state-sponsored church and is often used to promote propaganda like patriotism and nationalism. But it proves that the government is perfectly willing to work with religion. The Chinese Protestant so-called "Three-self" Church gets government money for facilities, charities, and other activities.

I've got to go and do some washing up, but before I go, I'd like to point out:

1. The Spectator is not a peer reviewed scientific journal. It is in fact a rather well known conservative periodical, noted for its erudite and idiosyncratic opinion pieces.
2. The article's numbers do not support Neo's detailed assertions - others have already covered this ground better than I could.
3. IIRC, Christianity is the largest religion in the world. Given that all religions face persecution, all else being equal (which they aren't, because of Christianity's unique evangelising stance), one would expect it to have the highest number of persecuted followers.
4. My brother has publicly celebrated communion in a large and established Beijing church. The only difficulty he reported was that he couldn't find any plain bread for the communion host, and had to make do with doughnuts.

Keru, now we'll see him on CNN in an orange jumpsuit...

Neo's British isn't he?

The media will think he is just a member of a radical wing of Fathers 4 Justice.

urm guys Neo isn't online anymore so you're kinda argueing with yourselves...against no one 'cause we all have the same point..

Technically 'from simians' rather than 'from apes'.

Very true, my apologies dear sir.

Keru, now we'll see him on CNN in an orange jumpsuit...

Believe me ... I'd rather see that. At least it would show me there's a spine behind all this jellied trolling.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that the only true thing said in that article is that non-Muslims aren't allowed in Makkah. That's true. They're not. That isn't persecution, though, because entering Makkah is a privilege, not a right.


Mecca is where the Prophet lived and Medina is where he was born. They are considered holy so they don't want non-muslims around. I can understand it after seeing the tourists act in the Vatican and at the tomb of Saint Francis.


Christians don't let gay men be scout leaders, but I'm willing to bet you have no problem with that. Islam is an exclusive club and its clubhouse is for members only.

Sure they do. Not every troop tells the main council what is going on. A hint Homosexuality != Pedophillia. Another hint: Many gay men work with scouts and you don't know they are gay. Final hint: The scouts are not a Christian organization.

Believe me ... I'd rather see that. At least it would show me there's a spine behind all this jellied trolling.
While I dislike his troling I would hate to see you take one for flaming

I thought it was primates.

Yeah, I was about to add an 'IIRC' caveat to it... checking of facts... simians are a subset of primates, so in this instance either one will do, whereas apes are a further subset of simians.

Mecca is where the Prophet lived and Medina is where he was born. They are considered holy so they don't want non-muslims around. I can understand it after seeing the tourists act in the Vatican and at the tomb of Saint Francis.



Sure they do. Not every troop tells the main council what is going on. A hint Homosexuality != Pedophillia. Another hint: Many gay men work with scouts and you don't know they are gay. Final hint: The scouts are not a Christian organization.
I agree that it != pediophilia

Though rather then being homophobic ... I think they are more thinking about it like having a male chaparone for girlscouts while hetrosexual != pedoiphillia most people would have an issue with a camping trip with a male chaparone

Final hint: The scouts are not a Christian organization.

They are, however, in origin firmly pro-Christian: from the foreword to Baden Powell's Scouting For Boys* -

"Therefore the aim of the Scout training is to replace Self with Service, to make the lads individually efficient, morally and physically, with the object of using that efficiency for the service of the community.

I don’t mean by this the mere soldiering and sailoring services; we have no military aim or practice in our movement; but I mean the ideals of service for their fellow-men. In other words, we aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not merely the profession of its theology on Sundays."


* no sniggering at the back, thank you.

Then I suggest you pick up a rifle and go do something about it. I submit that you, Neo, have never once in your life known what persecution is aside from what you've read in a newspaper over a nice breakfast in your airconditioned home.

While I agree I personally dont know what persecution is, I have done things to attemt to stop it, all of them non vilonent. I would explain them but I fear I would boast so I wont.

While I agree I personally dont know what persecution is, I have done things to attemt to stop it, all of them non vilonent. I would explain them but I fear I would boast so I wont.
Well doing things to improve peoples lots in lives is a good thing :) at least for me

See? This is what it always comes down to with you. Muslim vs. Christian.

It was just an example. I could have just as easily said Hindu or Shieik (badly spelt I know)

Mecca is where the Prophet lived and Medina is where he was born. They are considered holy so they don't want non-muslims around.

I know. I'm Muslim.

Sure they do. Not every troop tells the main council what is going on. A hint Homosexuality != Pedophillia. Another hint: Many gay men work with scouts and you don't know they are gay. Final hint: The scouts are not a Christian organization.

It's policy is different than the actions of a few - remember all those court battles where it was finally decided that the Scouts is a private organization and can admit anyone it likes and reject anyone it likes? I used that as a comparison to Neo's Islam bashing based on non-Muslims not being allowed into Makkah. The principle is the same.

I never said anything about pedophilia nor the Scouts being a Christian organization - though they do not permit Atheists or openly Pagan children.

It was just an example. I could have just as easily said Hindu or Shieik (badly spelt I know)

Was that meant to be 'Sikh' or 'Sheik'?

Was that meant to be 'Sikh' or 'Sheik'?

The former

Yeah, I was about to add an 'IIRC' caveat to it... checking of facts... simians are a subset of primates, so in this instance either one will do, whereas apes are a further subset of simians.

Actually

The order of Primates have suborders that basically can be grouped in three main groups: Prosimians, Monkeys, and Apes.

The use of "simians" (lets just add as I follow what you are trying to say) is not correct as it refers to monkeys and apes. You leave out the prosimians.

Guess what I like to study! :D

Actually

The order of Primates have suborders that basically can be grouped in three main groups: Prosimians, Monkeys, and Apes.

The use of "simians" (lets just add as I follow what you are trying to say) is not correct as it refers to monkeys and apes. You leave out the prosimians.

Guess what I like to study! :D

This seems correct to me (as best I remember it), but doesn't actually contradict what I said, does it? - that the apes and human beings have a common simian ancestor, rather than human beings being descended from apes.

I know. I'm Muslim.


Sorry I am going cross eyed! For some reason I thought it was Corneliu that wrote this. I saw somewhere else you claimed to be one. :)


It's policy is different than the actions of a few - remember all those court battles where it was finally decided that the Scouts is a private organization and can admit anyone it likes and reject anyone it likes? I used that as a comparison to Neo's Islam bashing based on non-Muslims not being allowed into Makkah. The principle is the same.

I never said anything about pedophilia nor the Scouts being a Christian organization - though they do not permit Atheists or openly Pagan children.

I am curious to your spelling of Mecca. Where do you get it from?

As to the Scouts, well I am not happy with the group at the moment. They have a few hard core Christians at the main council right now. Back in my day(I am an Eagle Scout BTW), we didn't discriminate as much. The Religion part was a requirement as Powell thought Religion was a good thing to have. We had a couple buddists, a Muslim, and even a retarded scout(I actually got him to the rank of scout. :) Took a great deal of work). There are troops all over the world and many aren't Christian. I have traded patches with guys from other countries. :)


Again I was retarded when I wrote this. It was not directed at you. :)

They are, however, in origin firmly pro-Christian: from the foreword to Baden Powell's Scouting For Boys* -

"Therefore the aim of the Scout training is to replace Self with Service, to make the lads individually efficient, morally and physically, with the object of using that efficiency for the service of the community.

I don’t mean by this the mere soldiering and sailoring services; we have no military aim or practice in our movement; but I mean the ideals of service for their fellow-men. In other words, we aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not merely the profession of its theology on Sundays."


* no sniggering at the back, thank you.

True. But in time that view changed. There are Muslim troops today. :)

Boo hoo hoo, Christian persecution, its not like the’ve ever done anything bad is it.

Just illustrating the hypocrisy, every ideology is a persecutor one day and the persecuted the next.

This seems correct to me (as best I remember it), but doesn't actually contradict what I said, does it? - that the apes and human beings have a common simian ancestor, rather than human beings being descended from apes.

Well? For the level of discussion we are holding no. When you go into talks with primatologists, they tend to use the suborder and family names(ie: pan, homind, hylobat, etc).

Oh and as I re-read. Yes. You don't say decended from an ape as we are basically an ape(some more so then others ;) ); we shared a common ancestor which in your example a simian ancestor is correct. Unless of course the split happened in the times of the prosimians(unlikely).

Can I claim the lack of coffee defense? :p

If you actually read the article, you will see that Christianity is the single worst persecuted group in the world, and no one seems to do anything about it. Certianly Islam doesnt recieve anything like this much persecution yet everyone is rushing to its aid to defend it from simple politiacal incorrectness.

Pay back is a bitch ain't it.. :cool:

It is in our deepest hour of persecution that we emerge either victorious or defeated. Many times in our history has persecution led to the unification of a people and some betterment. Now im not saying that it is a good or righteous thing to do, but there are some positive products of persecution.

"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."
- Orson Welles (1915-1985

Pay back is a bitch ain't it.. :cool:

Yeah, karma is a PUNK!

"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did they produce? The cuckoo clock."
- Orson Welles (1915-1985
Switzerland also produced the Bernoulli family and Leonhard Euler, the greatest mathematicians in history.

Just pulling a leg.

Switzerland also produced the Bernoulli family and Leonhard Euler, the greatest mathematicians in history.

Just pulling a leg.


Well i wouldnt say greatest..............

Well i wouldnt say greatest..............
I wouldn't comprehend their work, but from what I've heard, the consensus among mathematicians and scientists is that Euler would rank in the top 3 greatest mathematicians of all time, Johann Bernoulli would be in the top 10. Other members of the Bernoulli family were quite good too.

Why? The Christians are attempting to overthrow non-Christian society and replace it with their 'Kingdom of Heaven on Earth' - is it right to stand by and let them do this just because they are a religious group, rather than a purely politcal group that we may disagree with?
Sounds like you're judging all Christians by radical fringe fundamentalists.

Just so that everyone knows that "christian Europe" doesn't persecute christians as badly as the article presumes: Rocco Buttiglione was hounded out of office for his ultra-consertvative views on gays and the role of women.
Not for having those views, but openly desiring to legislate them.

Still Europe tends to be less tolerant of radical conservative crap like that. People like Buttiglione make up a large proportion of the US Senate now.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that the only true thing said in that article is that non-Muslims aren't allowed in Makkah. That's true. They're not. That isn't persecution, though, because entering Makkah is a privilege, not a right.

Christians don't let gay men be scout leaders, but I'm willing to bet you have no problem with that. Islam is an exclusive club and its clubhouse is for members only.
I don't know if I agree with you. The Vatican City lets non-Catholics in.

Was a pretty good philosopher two euler.

Switzerland are still cowards mind.

Sorry I am going cross eyed! For some reason I thought it was Corneliu that wrote this. I saw somewhere else you claimed to be one. :)

ROFL! Now that's a mistake worthy of a "are you on the drugs" retort! ;) No offense towards Corneliu intended, of course, but we are polar opposites.

Love yer screen name, by the way. My son's name is Hannibal.

I am curious to your spelling of Mecca. Where do you get it from?

It's the Arabic spelling. I use it out of courtesy. :)

As to the Scouts, well I am not happy with the group at the moment. They have a few hard core Christians at the main council right now. Back in my day(I am an Eagle Scout BTW), we didn't discriminate as much. The Religion part was a requirement as Powell thought Religion was a good thing to have. We had a couple buddists, a Muslim, and even a retarded scout(I actually got him to the rank of scout. :) Took a great deal of work). There are troops all over the world and many aren't Christian. I have traded patches with guys from other countries. :)

Well, it's a sad state of affairs through most of the world these days. Admittedly, I do know the Scouts used to be a fine organisation, but much has changed within the Scouts and the mindset of the world in general. Frankly, I'm hoping it means we're racing headlong towards another Renaissance or a new Age of Reason.

Again I was retarded when I wrote this. It was not directed at you. :)

I didn't think so. No harm, no foul. :D

Sounds like you're judging all Christians by radical fringe fundamentalists.


No, not really: Christianity is at heart a militant religion - it seeks to convert those who do not share the faith. Unlike the Judaism that it grew out of Christianity cannot stomach those who do not believe or those who believe differently: it is a program for world wide transformation under one banner.

As a side note: it seems that when Christians are not persecuted by those who do not share their faith, then Christians start to persecute their own.

Neo, I've got to wonder: how much of your spiritual life is consumed in wondering what happens to Christians 12,000 miles away from you, and how much is spent on your own salvation?
I think Neo is Catholic. Shouldn't he be concerned about human rights abuse directed against his fellow man, particularly fellow Christians?

I think Neo is Catholic.

I'm not catholic.

Not for having those views, but openly desiring to legislate them.


Actually the article does overstate its case there. Buttogini was given the position of anti dicrimination policy making within the commision. So it was not so much the worry that he held these views, but that he wouldnt be able to do his job properly while holding them. He didnt say he planned to legislate them, but people knew he held those views.

I'm not catholic.

Why?

No, not really: Christianity is at heart a militant religion - it seeks to convert those who do not share the faith. Unlike the Judaism that it grew out of Christianity cannot stomach those who do not believe or those who believe differently: it is a program for world wide transformation under one banner.

As a side note: it seems that when Christians are not persecuted by those who do not share their faith, then Christians start to persecute their own.
Your idea of Christians does not fit at all with the Christians I know, even the conservatives I know. The vast majority of them are neither persecuted nor persecutors.

What evidence do you have for your assertion that Christianity "is a program for world wide transformation under one banner". Most Christians just pray for the souls of sinners or those who don't agree with them. They don't force-convert people.

No, never said i was a believer, but what would u rather believe in, some "mythical" deity with omniscient powers, or some other human providing you with "physical evidence" that the earth was created 5.9 billion years ago or we all come from apes, that 99% of the ppl on earth dont understand.

Oh, without a doubt the former, it means that everything is explained supernaturally in an easy to digest belief system. Wouldn't want to waste my time contemplating a godless Universe now would I? Might not get to sleep at night...

What evidence do you have for your assertion that Christianity "is a program for world wide transformation under one banner".

The Bible, more specificaly the New Testament.

Most Christians just pray for the souls of sinners or those who don't agree with them. They don't force-convert people.

I never mentioned 'force-converting': Christianity teaches that only those who accept Jesus as their saviour can be saved, and also that Christians have a duty to love their neighbour - thus there is a duty within Christianity to save the unbeliever by converting them to the one true way. To watch them be damned is not to love them.

What evidence do you have for your assertion that Christianity "is a program for world wide transformation under one banner". Most Christians just pray for the souls of sinners or those who don't agree with them. They don't force-convert people.

Well - the 'goal' of Christianity is the death (and eternal torment) of all non-Christians, and the creation of a 'heavenly existence' for those who do believe.

It could be argued that (primarily) Christian nations deliberately created the artificial state of Israel, PURELY to advance the cause of the Christian armageddon.

Well - the 'goal' of Christianity is the death (and eternal torment) of all non-Christians, and the creation of a 'heavenly existence' for those who do believe.


Well, the "goal" is carried out by a vengeful God at the end of time, not by his followers.

Well, the "goal" is carried out by a vengeful God at the end of time, not by his followers.

Granted - however - that is still the hoped-for 'end result' of 'christianty'.

If Christians were less numerous, their relgion would be considered just another Doomsday Cult.

Nothing personal against any christian, but that is, unfortunately, the complexion of Christianity, as seen by the non-Christian.

1) When people complain about x-tain persecution, they mean in america.

2) Who ever said that 10% of women being persecuted was still a lot more than the 300 million X-tains, it is the same amount. 5% of 6 billion is 300 million.

Thank you come again!
</APU>

Granted - however - that is still the hoped-for 'end result' of 'christianty'.

If Christians were less numerous, their relgion would be considered just another Doomsday Cult.

Nothing personal against any christian, but that is, unfortunately, the complexion of Christianity, as seen by the non-Christian.
Christianity was a cult until Constantine (I think) made it the official religion of Rome.

2) Who ever said that 10% of women being persecuted was still a lot more than the 300 million X-tains, it is the same amount. 5% of 6 billion is 300 million.


Although, isn't the world population slightly higher then that (6 billion) with women having a slight majority over men?

Although, isn't the world population slightly higher then that (6 billion) with women having a slight majority over men?

Speculative, I realise... with no source. But, the figure I heard was a 52:48 split, in favour of females.

An extra 12 million. Sue me.

What evidence do you have for your assertion that Christianity "is a program for world wide transformation under one banner".

Christianity was a cult until Constantine (I think) made it the official religion of Rome.

I was going to mention Constantine in reference to the question Swimmingpool asked above -

IN HOC SIGNO VINCES.

An extra 12 million. Sue me.

Hey. Missed by an inch, or by a mile. Wrong is wrong.

Hey. Missed by an inch, or by a mile. Wrong is wrong.
Yup 4 percent off of his base besideds 12 million people got to count for something

I would like to know where the article originated. You always have to look at the source. If it is sponsored by a christian organization, then there is more than likely a bias. If it is a peer-reviewed journal, then I would give it more credit.

Untill then I cannot uphold it as the truth.

There is no denying that Christians are persecuted (China is another pristine example), but I do not think that they are persecuted the MOST. I would have to say that Wiccans and other pagan religions are, due to the overwhelming negative stereotypes that surround them.

The majority religion in any region will tend to persecute those in the minority. Look at the Muslims in SOME countries (not all do this). They discriminate against Jews and Christians, and God forbid if you are a pagan. However, the discrimination is usually carried out by smaller extremist sects, and not the government or the mainstream of the religion. China's government does discriminate against Christianity, in that it will only allow state-approved churches, with state-approved sermons. Yes, in these countries, Christians are most definately persecuted.

Here in America, however, Christians tend to be the force that persecutes other religions (again, mostly smaller, fundamentalist extremist sects), because they are IN THE MAJORITY. There is a pattern. To see it, all you have to do is look...

Yup 4 percent off of his base besideds 12 million people got to count for something

Indeed. Especially if you were trying to feed them...

Seems like a big deal, when you think logisitcs.

I would like to know where the article originated. You always have to look at the source. If it is sponsored by a christian organization, then there is more than likely a bias. If it is a peer-reviewed journal, then I would give it more credit.

Untill then I cannot uphold it as the truth.

There is no denying that Christians are persecuted (China is another pristine example), but I do not think that they are persecuted the MOST. I would have to say that Wiccans and other pagan religions are, due to the overwhelming negative stereotypes that surround them.

The majority religion in any region will tend to persecute those in the minority. Look at the Muslims in SOME countries (not all do this). They discriminate against Jews and Christians, and God forbid if you are a pagan. However, the discrimination is usually carried out by smaller extremist sects, and not the government or the mainstream of the religion. China's government does discriminate against Christianity, in that it will only allow state-approved churches, with state-approved sermons. Yes, in these countries, Christians are most definately persecuted.

Here in America, however, Christians tend to be the force that persecutes other religions (again, mostly smaller, fundamentalist extremist sects), because they are IN THE MAJORITY. There is a pattern. To see it, all you have to do is look...

He already posted I beleive it was sparks (the link might be down a page or two) besides source != validity
I have issues with the statistics presented in this article and other issues with it but not because of where it was published
Certian sources make it a probabilty of being biased ... but human bias is inharent

what I am trying to say is dont disqualify stuff just because of location if it does things correctly

He already posted I beleive it was sparks (the link might be down a page or two) besides source != validity
I have issues with the statistics presented in this article and other issues with it but not because of where it was published
Certian sources make it a probabilty of being biased ... but human bias is inharent

what I am trying to say is dont disqualify stuff just because of location if it does things correctly

True: There is no such thing as a TOTALLY reliable OR unreliable source.

Every source should be examined in context.

True: There is no such thing as a TOTALLY reliable OR unreliable source.

Every source should be examined in context.
Yup ... not saying that sources dont have their own probability of publishing something close to fact ... just that being of a certian source in of itself does not qualify to discard the information

Why?

Because Catholicism has a lot of ideas within it that are unbiblical and unessecary.

He already posted I beleive it was sparks (the link might be down a page or two) besides source != validity
I have issues with the statistics presented in this article and other issues with it but not because of where it was published
Certian sources make it a probabilty of being biased ... but human bias is inharent

what I am trying to say is dont disqualify stuff just because of location if it does things correctly

I'm not disquilifying it. I need a source (I'll go back and search for it...I must have overlooked it). Being trained in research methods, I've learned that it's easy to twist data to say what you want it to, thus it is wise to look for sources that are unbiased. If it comes from an Christian sympathizer's website (not saying that's a bad thing), it is more likely to contain bias. One from a journal or reviewed website will *most* likely not (Some do, so you still have to look for bias). Being in a biased website does not mean that the data is wrong, it just means that it may be phrased in such a way as to lead you to believe what the researcher or presenter wants. Looking at the data on a different page can give you a completely different view or conclusion.

Also having a source can help me find other data to compare it to.

So I'm not knocking it. I just refuse to uphold it as fact until I can find the source, and compare it. It's more for my own purposes than anything else.

I have heard several people complain on this forum that Christians complain about being "the victim" when they aren't. Well please read this article and tell me Christians are not victims.
Although I agree Christians are persecuted in foreign countries, that article makes blanket statements about Muslims. For example, in Iran, Christianity is recognized by the government as a religion and, as such, they are given several set slots in their Parliament. Don't lump as Muslims and Muslim-governments together, just because you're ignorant.

There are Islamic extremists that want to kill Christians, just as, in the U.S., there were Christian extremists that wanted to kill blacks and jews. Christians are viewed by most Muslims the same way that Christians view Jews. They're not evil, but they're "foolish people, that should convert or they're going to hell."

And also, here's another important fact.

One of the largest groups trying to stop Christian persecution, International Christian Concern (http://www.persecution.org/) does not list the United States as a country where Christians are persecuted.

As a Catholic friend of mine said, "Hey. I'm a Christian and no one's tried to throw me to the lions." ;)

Because Catholicism has a lot of ideas within it that are unbiblical and unessecary.

So - you consider them to be less 'christian' than you?

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics
And the Catholics hate the Protestants
And the Hindus hate the Moslems
And everybody hates the Jews

But during National Brotherhood Week
National Brotherhood Week
It's National Everyone-Smile-At-
One-Another-hood Week
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you
It's only for a week, so have no fear
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

I'm not disquilifying it. I need a source (I'll go back and search for it...I must have overlooked it). Being trained in research methods, I've learned that it's easy to twist data to say what you want it to, thus it is wise to look for sources that are unbiased. If it comes from an Christian sympathizer's website (not saying that's a bad thing), it is more likely to contain bias. One from a journal or reviewed website will *most* likely not (Some do, so you still have to look for bias). Being in a biased website does not mean that the data is wrong, it just means that it may be phrased in such a way as to lead you to believe what the researcher or presenter wants. Looking at the data on a different page can give you a completely different view or conclusion.

Also having a source can help me find other data to compare it to.

So I'm not knocking it. I just refuse to uphold it as fact until I can find the source, and compare it. It's more for my own purposes than anything else.
It is there … its not exactly on page one so I understand missing it

(http://www.spectator.co.uk/index.php) that’s where he got it from

Though I think you will find we dug pretty deeply into his source … I would read through some before posting, might save you some time or energy on some things at least

So - you consider them to be less 'christian' than you?

No, but to be a Christian, it isn't nessecary to believe as they do about such things as contreception, attend mass, read from a prayer book (thats my bigest bone of contetion with Catholicicims and Angliscisim, people praying from a book. Why cant they pray from the heart and let them think for themselves about what they want)