NationStates Jolt Archive


Bush may set off arms race between India and Pakistan

Evil Woody Thoughts
28-03-2005, 12:34
It appears that the Bush administration is willing to ignore his platitudes about spreading democracy and sell military equipment to dictatorships, but meh :rolleyes:

The US government has approved the sale of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, Bush administration officials say.

US President George W Bush called Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to tell him about the decision.

Indian government spokesman Sanjay Baru said Mr Singh had expressed "great disappointment," saying the move would exacerbate India's security concerns.

[snip]

Correspondents say that the Indian government fears the arms deal will disturb the military balance between the long-time rivals and affect the current peace dialogue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4382735.stm

So this is how we reward dictatorships with n00ks? Gee, I wonder if Pakistan will turn around and sell this stuff to North Korea; I wouldn't exactly consider Pakistan a country that I could trust :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Bolol
28-03-2005, 12:37
Oh, THAT's smart...[/sarcasm]
Plutophobia
28-03-2005, 12:42
Hey, what do the Muslim-hating Christians have to say about this? Is Bush evil or what?! He's giving weapons to MUSLIMS!! You hear me? MUSLIMS!!!! And don't forget about Hindus, either. Idolaters!!

Bush is selling out to the sinners!!!!!! :eek:
Evil Woody Thoughts
28-03-2005, 12:44
Hey, what do the Muslim-hating Christians have to say about this? Is Bush evil or what?! He's giving weapons to MUSLIMS!! You hear me? MUSLIMS!!!! And don't forget about Hindus, either. Idolaters!!

Bush is selling out to the sinners!!!!!! :eek:

LOL :D

Shhh...don't tell the fundies about Saudi Arabia...
Kanabia
28-03-2005, 12:45
LOL :D

Shhh...don't tell the fundies about Saudi Arabia...

Or Israel. :p
The necro penguin
28-03-2005, 12:46
maybe i'm not seeing something but where did it mention any nukes being sold to pakistan? :confused:
Evil Woody Thoughts
28-03-2005, 12:48
maybe i'm not seeing something but where did it mention any nukes being sold to pakistan? :confused:

We aren't selling nukes to Pakistan. We're selling F-16's to Pakistan.

My point was we shouldn't be selling high-grade military equipment to a dictatorship with nukes that will probably sell said high-grade military equipment to a third party.
Davo_301
28-03-2005, 12:48
Hey, what do the Muslim-hating Christians have to say about this? Is Bush evil or what?! He's giving weapons to MUSLIMS!! You hear me? MUSLIMS!!!! And don't forget about Hindus, either. Idolaters!!

Bush is selling out to the sinners!!!!!! :eek:

WONT some one please think of the children
Jerolaidan
28-03-2005, 12:49
Sheesh... Pakistanis are people too, ya know!

I mean, just cause they don't speak our language.. and they're black... don't mean they're crazy d00ds who will turn around and shoot you in the back... :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:
Kanabia
28-03-2005, 12:52
Sheesh... Pakistanis are people too, ya know!

I mean, just cause they don't speak our language.. and they're black... don't mean they're crazy d00ds who will turn around and shoot you in the back... :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

Clearly you understand sarcasm very well.

EDIT- And the Author's post is geared up more towards the fact that Pakistan is a dictatorship.
Plutophobia
28-03-2005, 12:52
maybe i'm not seeing something but where did it mention any nukes being sold to pakistan? :confused:
No, because Pakistan already has nuclear weapons. And we give them technology to maintain what they have, as well as troops to help guard them. This new weaponry is just more stuff that'll probably end up being used against the U.S., no different than Hussein's weapons, Al-Qaeda's weapons, or Iran's weapons. :)
Lunatic Goofballs
28-03-2005, 12:54
JUst because they will get F-16s, doesn't mean they'll have the ability to maintain them. :p
Patra Caesar
28-03-2005, 13:30
Well of course Bush is giving weapons to Pakistan, he's trying to get them on side more and reward them/Gen Mushareff (Sp?) for supporting America in Afghanistan and in the hunt for Osama Bin Laden. George is trying to make friends, with a Muslim country too...
Evil Woody Thoughts
28-03-2005, 13:36
Well of course Bush is giving weapons to Pakistan, he's trying to get them on side more and reward them/Gen Mushareff (Sp?) for supporting America in Afghanistan and in the hunt for Osama Bin Laden. George is trying to make friends, with a Muslim country too...

Oh, you mean like how the Reagan administration cozied up with Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden in the 1980's? :rolleyes:

Mark my words, this is gonna bite us in the @$$.
LazyHippies
28-03-2005, 13:38
Pakistan and India have been in arms race for a really long time. Im not even gonna bother trying to estimate how long. Bush cant set off something that started before he was even president.
Patra Caesar
28-03-2005, 13:46
Oh, you mean like how the Reagan administration cozied up with Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden in the 1980's? :rolleyes:

Mark my words, this is gonna bite us in the @$$.

Firstly I don't see how helping Osama in the 80's has hurt the US. I don't think it was anything the US provided him with that blew up commercial centres, ships or embassys... It could of, but I don't see how...

You give them a few toys which prevents them from bothering to be able to produce them on their own and when it comes time to invade them they have your old weapons which you produce the spare parts of and they have only a limited ability to produce their own.

Of course this is slightly diffrent in this case, with India who are not our mutual enemies (unlike the communists in Afghanistan with Osama and Iran with Saddam) and who in all likelyhood would be the ones to feel it if there was combat in the region.

At least unlike with Iraq we are not going to give them anthrax or other biological weapons. I suppose even if we offered they probably wouldn't accept them, knowing how Iraq was invaded for its huge stockpile of WMDs.
Katganistan
28-03-2005, 13:50
We aren't selling nukes to Pakistan. We're selling F-16's to Pakistan.

My point was we shouldn't be selling high-grade military equipment to a dictatorship with nukes that will probably sell said high-grade military equipment to a third party.


We're also selling the same to India. While I don't think it is a good idea, this at least provides a balance of power so that both nations can defend themselves but neither has an advantage.
Serdica
28-03-2005, 13:57
*knowing how Iraq was invaded for its huge stockpile of WMDs.*

i don't exactly call a bank reserve of euro's a wmd...
Patra Caesar
28-03-2005, 14:02
*knowing how Iraq was invaded for its huge stockpile of WMDs.*

i don't exactly call a bank reserve of euro's a wmd...

No, but when you mix the Euros with oil it turns into a super-duper WMD;)

BTW, if you want to quote you could always try the tabs...:)
PopularFreedom
28-03-2005, 14:19
Show yourself intelligent, read ALL I wrote before commenting...

Bush already set off an arms race, by ignoring the UN, going into Iraq, noting who his enemies were (axis of evil) and that he planned to take them out. Now these same axis of evil countries (North Korea most notably) are arming themselves for 'self defence'. Furthermore while we do this, China gets closer and closer to taking over Taiwan (by force - and then maybe Japan?) while the US does nothing to defend against this (well except to warn Europe against arms sales to China which thankfully they listened - for now). However with Bush so busy with Iraq and others (such as Iran, Syria, and South Korea) if other nations wish to fight (such as the Pakistan VS India scenario), even if we could have had some sort of influence to prevent it we won't cause we are so busy dealing with smaller issues becuase of his flawed foreign policy (this in addition to the fact that we sell them weapons as noted earlier).

PS: Anyone who disagrees with me that is fine, but show yourself intelligent enough to defend yourself with actual information as opposed to ripping my point of view. I find it incredible that those who are for Bush, put down anyone against him without any credible information and defend it with the mindset that since I do not like Bush I must be anti-American - which for the record is the farthest from the truth.
Andaluciae
28-03-2005, 14:27
We aren't selling nukes to Pakistan. We're selling F-16's to Pakistan.

My point was we shouldn't be selling high-grade military equipment to a dictatorship with nukes that will probably sell said high-grade military equipment to a third party.
I think part of the reason for Bush's support for Pakistan is because he wants to keep Musharraf in power, there is a sizable radical islamist movement in Pakistan, and while Musharraf is somewhat less than good, he's better than the alternative. It's the cold war all over again, no?

He might also be trying to keep some semblance of parity between the two. (India and Pakistan, that is)
Isanyonehome
28-03-2005, 14:31
We aren't selling nukes to Pakistan. We're selling F-16's to Pakistan.

My point was we shouldn't be selling high-grade military equipment to a dictatorship with nukes that will probably sell said high-grade military equipment to a third party.

f-16 is one of if not the oldest fighter in our fleet.

Its the workhorse of our Air Force but it isnt exactly state of the art.

If we were selling them f-22 raptors then I would be pissed.
Whispering Legs
28-03-2005, 14:33
Considering that both nations already have access to late model Russian fighters, I see the offer of F-16 aircraft as a token gesture.

It's an old tech fighter. As for an arms race, they already have nuclear weapons on missiles - so a few F-16s aren't going to make any difference.
Ancient and Holy Terra
28-03-2005, 14:44
You must realize that the F-16 was designed as an Export Fighter in the first place. It's multirole, but it's not exceptional at any one task; a "Jack of all Trades, Master of None."

The United States maintains aircraft in its inventory (or will soon have them) that can defeat the F-16 for a specific capability: The F/A-22 or F-15 for Air Supremacy, the A-10, JSF, or F/A-18E/F for Ground Support, the B-52H, B-1B, and B-2 for Bombing Runs.

South Korea, for instance, purchased F-16s because of their multirole capabilities. Though it is a formidable piece of military equipment, it is nothing that would truly endanger either India or Pakistan. Along with equipment, winning a war is a matter of logistics, strategy, and power projection. India currently deploys an aircraft carrier as a portion of their fleet, which instantly gives them a huge advantage over Pakistan.

Blaming President Bush for inciting an arms race is ridiculous. India and Pakistan have been locked in a staring contest for more than 30 years. If anything, tempers are beginning to cool in the region.

The same protests were raised when we sold variants of the F-15 and F-16 to Israel. The inclusion of a few fighters into either nation's airforce isn't going to tip the balance of power, or provide their respective armed forces with any capabilities they didn't already have. Furthermore, having common, modern technology allows both nations to play a greater role if they are ever asked to participate in peacekeeping missions.

Finally, I'd appreciate it if somebody could clear up whether India or Pakistan is getting AAMs and AGMs out of this deal. An F-16 doesn't pose much of a threat if it's not carrying AMRAAMs or AGM-65s. :p
Water Cove
28-03-2005, 15:03
Well of course Bush is giving weapons to Pakistan, he's trying to get them on side more and reward them/Gen Mushareff (Sp?) for supporting America in Afghanistan and in the hunt for Osama Bin Laden. George is trying to make friends, with a Muslim country too...

Bwahahahahaha!!!

If you want friends in the muslim world, break ties with Saudi-Arabia. Get the hell out of Lebanon (your nose of course). Stop selling weapons to terrorists. And Bush should publicly grovel for forgineness for killing so many and destroying mosques, not to mention torturing 'enemy fighters' in Guantanamo and Abu Graib.

If you want friends from Muslim breeding, buy an Afghan Windhound. USA is going to one of the 'unspoken' words in Muslim society for another generation. Dubya is making things so much worse.

Selling weapons to Pakistan is of such extreme stupidity, this is a ultra-green light, with wailing sirens and horns, and anything else you can image that might coax someone to go, to sell European weapons to China at discount prices. Even if we practically GAVE China our complete stock of weaponry and supplies for free, as well as money for TAKING all our killing machines, we would not be the first to be bitten in the ass by our decision.

This F-16 deal is like an add for 'Nuke the US and win $30', a plea for 'please, screw us royally, you'll get Abrams', a goshdarn DEMAND 'come here and make us regret this deal, send us your terrorists!'

The US doesn't want to learn from the past. They must think 'Surely Musharraf isn't like Khadaffi, Saddam, Batista and Castro, the Iranese Ayatollahs, the various puppets of America, the whole freakin' Saud family'! Let's pass a 'Nuke the US!' bill through the security council (consisting of nuclear power) and see if the US notices THAT! If not, too bad for them!

Sheesh, and I thought my Grandma's old friend was demented.
The Britainists
28-03-2005, 18:57
Pakistan and India have been in arms race for a really long time. Im not even gonna bother trying to estimate how long. Bush cant set off something that started before he was even president.

No but he could set off a war, and then he'd probably take sides and Britain would take Americas side and France would take the other persons side and there might be an all out world war.

In fact no France probably wouldn't take any sides. but there could still be a war.
Niccolo Medici
28-03-2005, 21:19
In all honesty, I don't see too much wrong with this move.

F-16s are high matinence, can't be taken underground and used against the US as easily as many other weapons could be. They are also fairly old; their technology is still valuable, but not all that advanced by today's standards. They are high-profile, hard to use, obvious targets that require well-groomed airfields to work well.

Its a perfectly solid plan. Pakistan has tremendous problems with its centralized government; if Musharaaf falls, the F-16s will be in obvious places, the pilots will be targets for recruitment or elimination by all sides; making them unlikely to stick their necks out too far. The F-16s themselves are not powerful enough by themselves to truly turn the tide of war by themselves, especially against a power like India.

Thus they are unlikely to be used for much besides a possible aggressive or defensive war against India, where they will be of marginal effectiveness, or will sit on airfields as political tools. Their tech is too old to be of much use against the US itself, and they are too expensive and unwieldly to be of much use on the black market.

At the same time, we are seen as actively supporting an ally. Bolstering a friendly government with fighters that are capable of close air support for those hunting down enemies in the Pakistan hinterlands.
Upitatanium
28-03-2005, 21:33
Get both countries in an arms race, then sell to both countries.

Sounds like the weapons trade to me.
OceanDrive
28-03-2005, 21:37
WONT some one please think of the children

its all AlJazeera's Fault !!!
Yupaenu
28-03-2005, 21:41
It appears that the Bush administration is willing to ignore his platitudes about spreading democracy and sell military equipment to dictatorships, but meh :rolleyes:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4382735.stm

So this is how we reward dictatorships with n00ks? Gee, I wonder if Pakistan will turn around and sell this stuff to North Korea; I wouldn't exactly consider Pakistan a country that I could trust :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

well, the dictatorships are obviously much better countries than the united states. if only they'd put someone like stalin in the u.s to make it better.