NationStates Jolt Archive

I've learned how much word-usage affects our opinions, not just from what I've seen of the media, but studies in psychology, which show the majority of people (including us) can be 'primed' to believe something that isn't true. Recently, I've started saying prison 'torture' every time I refer to it, rather than prison abuse, because of an article I'd read which said that abuse is truly just a euphemism for torture. A husband might abuse his wife, but he's not raping her, blindfolding her, or keeping her on a leash. I do this with the hopes that the phrase "prison torture" become more common, and I suggest anyone who finds it disgusting to do this as well, so people view it for what it truly is.

Well, I've found another interesting thing with semantics. The words "indoctrinate", "prosletyze", and "preach" mean the same thing, and yet we percieve those words dramatically differently. It's funny how only Christians can "preach", but when other religions try to spread their beliefs, it's "prosletyzing."

Children are sent to Sunday school, or at least are forced to go to church every Sunday (being punished, if they don't), where there is massive amounts of indoctrination. But no, oh no, it's not indoctrination. It's "preaching." Children are far more suspectible to persuasion than anyone. I don't have any proof for this, but it seems reasonable enough, seeing how we can get them to believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause-why not something like the fundamental infallibility of the Bible, or Bush's intelligence? Because they are things which are equally fictional. More than facts, though, what worries me most is that certain Christian sects are not taught to question. Questioning the infallibility of the Bible is Satanic and you must have faith--which, unfortunately, many say can only be given as a gift and not earned (which raises the philosophical question--can I strive towards something I can't earn?)

Well, the point of all this is... I've added a new word to my vocabulary, a word that doesn't exist, but should. "Indoctrinator."

Wal-Mart has a section of religious books labeled the "Inspirational Center" containing only Christian books. If only I had a car, I'd drive to each Wal-Mart and vandalize each one with the word, "Christian", and laugh as Wal-Mart sues me for revealing their prejudice.

Are all non-Christian books uninspired and uninspiring? Wal-Mart certainly thinks so. Non-Christians should boycott that place until they change the damn sign. Because you know damn well if a bookstore sold books for every religion, except Christianity, there'd be riots outside and O'Reilly would find statistics and columnists which cite evidence that the employees are all homosexual, potsmoking, satanic, illegal immigrants on welfare.

From here on out, either all people who profess any religion are preaching, or preachers are prosletyzers. And as for the Christians who bring up politics in church, or in any way related to their religion, that's indoctrination.

That is very true, but it happens outside of Christianity. For example, I grew up in a Muslim Family. Not only did we have to pray five times a day in a language we didn't understand, we had to memorize passages that we didn't understand and go to the Mosque every Friday. Every day on Ramadan. The thing is, I can remember before I figured out that none of it made sense. It was a very strange feeling. I didn't even think to question. Eating pork is bad. Yes it is. Learning to read and write in a language you didn't understand. Of course. The thought of saying "Why" didn't even cross my mind until I was thirteen years old. It took another two years to become an atheist, and even after that I remained in the closet for a year and a half. It might be just because I've experienced it first hand, but Islam seems to have a lot more indoctrination then Christianity. Most Christians don't have to memorize the entire Bible or pray five times a day, in exactly the same day, for all of their lives.
I was just lucky to get out when I did.

Because you know damn well if a bookstore sold books for every religion, except Christianity, there'd be riots outside and O'Reilly would find statistics and columnists which cite evidence that the employees are all homosexual, potsmoking, satanic, illegal immigrants on welfare..

Which is a fun twist since most Wal-mart employees ARE homosexual, potsmoking, satanic, illegal immigrants on welfare. :D

Indoctrination, proselytization and preaching are all parts of life, Pltuophobia. You can't escape people telling you how you ought to live, act, believe, etc. etc., especially when you're young. It's how virtues and vices are instilled in you.

I would also note that it is the religious duty of Chritistians to proselytize. Christ commanded them to go forth like sheep amongst the wolves, remember? It's the father's duty to teach his son about God and Christ; it'd be a sin not to. I think painting the Christians as forcing their children to believe in Christianity as being somehow wrong is itself mistaken.

[
[snip]
Children are sent to Sunday school, or at least are forced to go to church every Sunday (being punished, if they don't), where there is massive amounts of indoctrination. But no, oh no, it's not indoctrination. It's "preaching." Children are far more suspectible to persuasion than anyone. I don't have any proof for this, but it seems reasonable enough, seeing how we can get them to believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause-why not something like the fundamental infallibility of the Bible, or Bush's intelligence? Because they are things which are equally fictional. More than facts, though, what worries me most is that certain Christian sects are not taught to question. Questioning the infallibility of the Bible is Satanic and you must have faith--which, unfortunately, many say can only be given as a gift and not earned (which raises the philosophical question--can I strive towards something I can't earn?)
[snip]


You dont have any children of your own do you? You are grossly underestimating the abilities of children. As one who teaches children in a religious setting, I am in a position to tell you that without a doubt, your view is incorrect. The week before last I spent some time talking with a 10 year old girl who was questioning the validity of the bible. This is not uncommon, often I have to throw out the lesson for the day and just dedicate myself to answering questions. Girls openly question far more than boys, but I bet you boys just keep it to themselves.

If you want evidence of what little effect "indoctrination" has on children, you need look no further than this forum. Ask the atheists here if they were raised in a religion and a surprising number of them will tell you they were.

People speak of christian sects that are taught not to question all the time, but what amazes me is that in all of my travels and all of the many churches I have attended around the world, Ive yet to find the church these people speak of. I am beginning to think it does not exist.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

Talk about preachy - you fit the bill well yourself. You draw very weak links between words and try to suggest synonimity (a word? now it is!)

You could make the same point that education or teaching is indoctrination. Yet you make no excuses for children being 'indoctrined' with history, reading or math from a very young age.

You measure the results by your own perceived values - considered a fatal mistake among sociologists. You also make many unsubstantiated claims. Do you have evidence that all or even a majority of Christians consider their peer religions, be they Judaism or Hindu, indoctrination?

Finally, Wal Mart is a private organization. Since they are in a nation where 90% of people claim to believe in God, and the vast majority the judeo christian god, it makes little sence to expect them to not reflect that in their spiritual section.

You aregument is baseless, unsupported and weak.

I think there isn't too much you can force a child to learn.

I think that sunday school shouldn't begin as early as it does- Sunday Preschool, for pete's sake!

There are certain types of children who NEVER question their beliefs, and there are those who begin poking holes as soon as they are old enough to know what a hole is. I don't know if this has to do with the fundimental nature of the person or if its due to early experiences- has anyone ever done a study on religous teaching before kindergarden vs. faith in later years?

Finally, Wal Mart is a private organization. Since they are in a nation where 90% of people claim to believe in God, and the vast majority the judeo christian god, it makes little sence to expect them to not reflect that in their spiritual section.


As is Barnes and Nobles, who has a nice section on wicca and eastern religions. same with Borders Books. I haven't looked at Wal-Marts around here, tho.

*snip*
People speak of christian sects that are taught not to question all the time, but what amazes me is that in all of my travels and all of the many churches I have attended around the world, Ive yet to find the church these people speak of. I am beginning to think it does not exist.

hear hear! I agree, all of my friends and I were all "indoctrinated" as you say to be Christians, yet one is a druggie agnostic who can prove that there is a supernatural, he just isn't sure about all that Jesus stuff. Another friend is (prepare for a Christian term) "a strong man of God" but he has gone through more than enough to turn him away. I was not indoctrinated, I went to Sunday School because I loved my parents and they wanted me to go, so I obeyed. Later I found out for myself what I believe.

I can definitely speak for three major churches in Alaska, we do not indoctrinate the kids. I remember my days in sunday school..their was two types of class experiences: Either we asked a lot of questions and were awake, or we listened to the teacher (usually a noobie) drone on and on and we fell asleep.

I think there isn't too much you can force a child to learn.

I think that sunday school shouldn't begin as early as it does- Sunday Preschool, for pete's sake!

There are certain types of children who NEVER question their beliefs, and there are those who begin poking holes as soon as they are old enough to know what a hole is. I don't know if this has to do with the fundimental nature of the person or if its due to early experiences- has anyone ever done a study on religous teaching before kindergarden vs. faith in later years?

Part of the difference comes from how much the kids are scared into thinking that any sort of questioning is evil. Most aren't and grow up constantly revising their idea of how things work. Some really do get indoctrinated. Once you get a lttle further a lot of people go to crazier extremes of belief because they want to preserve something and be unique. I think this is what happened to one of my friends. He is a fundamentalist, right-wing person who thinks Fox News is the holy truth. Yet his parents are democrats. He got stuck where he is ideologically partially because he was kept by his friends from questioning. So it can really go both ways.

Wal-Mart has a section of religious books labeled the "Inspirational Center" containing only Christian books. If only I had a car, I'd drive to each Wal-Mart and vandalize each one with the word, "Christian", and laugh as Wal-Mart sues me for revealing their prejudice.
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Uhh, this sounds suspiciously fake, or else you're the kind of firking annoying psychotic anti-christian that makes us level-headed atheists look bad

One of the most pertinent goals of propaganda is to first creat obfuscation by redefining words to suit your goal, as this author is making a very poor attempt at doing. Different words have different meanings for a reason. Any attempt to redefine them reveals an agenda.

[snip]
Wal-Mart has a section of religious books labeled the "Inspirational Center" containing only Christian books. If only I had a car, I'd drive to each Wal-Mart and vandalize each one with the word, "Christian", and laugh as Wal-Mart sues me for revealing their prejudice.

Are all non-Christian books uninspired and uninspiring? Wal-Mart certainly thinks so. Non-Christians should boycott that place until they change the damn sign. Because you know damn well if a bookstore sold books for every religion, except Christianity, there'd be riots outside and O'Reilly would find statistics and columnists which cite evidence that the employees are all homosexual, potsmoking, satanic, illegal immigrants on welfare.
[snip]


Psst. Look more carefully. There are secular self-help books in that section, even some that approach new-age philosophy.

Well, the point of all this is... I've added a new word to my vocabulary, a word that doesn't exist, but should. "Indoctrinator."


No; it did, in fact, already exist.

I'm not sure I'd call all religion an attempt at enforcing absolutist ethics and unquestionable truths.. in the Greek tradition, we have a healthy mysticism that allows for a good deal of questioning and interpretation about the nature of God, such as we can trace from the Pseudo-Dionysius and to some degree Eriugena.. in other words, your interpretation of God's will, even if different from mine, is not impossible, and you're not "evil" for thinking that way, as long as you do so in earnest.. but that's just the way I see it.

Psst. Look more carefully. There are secular self-help books in that secition, even some that approach new-age philosophy.

Not in my Wal-Mart, but then again I live in a very conservative area. All the self-help books in the pharmacy that give anything other than purely medical advice give it from a purely Christian point of view. They all advocate prayer and giving yourself over to Christ to cure depression, anxiety and all manner of marital problems.

But I can always go elsewhere to get my reading material. It's supply and demand, they carry what sells the best here.

Some churches definitely indoctrinate. In fact most every church I've ever been to or have heard of teach that if you question what they tell you then you do not have faith and are going to hell. Most of the people I know and am friends with were raised in very controlling conservative Christian households. All but one of them now hates the church.

When something has been drilled into your head from the time you were born it doesn't occur to most children to question it. The shit typically hits the fan during the teenage years. If you haven't questioned the religion before you start to question it. And you might realize that these things your parents(who you are supposed to trust) have pushed on you just don't add up for you. This can be very devastating. This is how the church breeds hate. We don't just hate it for shits and giggles. We hate it because we felt we were manipulated when we were unable to fight back.

Some churches definitely indoctrinate. In fact most every church I've ever been to or have heard of teach that if you question what they tell you then you do not have faith and are going to hell. Most of the people I know and am friends with were raised in very controlling conservative Christian households. All but one of them now hates the church.

When something has been drilled into your head from the time you were born it doesn't occur to most children to question it. The shit typically hits the fan during the teenage years. If you haven't questioned the religion before you start to question it. And you might realize that these things your parents(who you are supposed to trust) have pushed on you just don't add up for you. This can be very devastating. This is how the church breeds hate. We don't just hate it for shits and giggles. We hate it because we felt we were manipulated when we were unable to fight back.

Hmm, Church offered you love and you return hate. Yet somehow you feel morally superior.

Hmm, Church offered you love and you return hate. Yet somehow you feel morally superior.
The church offered him love at the cost of independent thought

The price was too high

Children are sent to Sunday school, or at least are forced to go to church every Sunday (being punished, if they don't),

I never forced my children to go. They expressed an interest on their own, and go if they wish. I have never punished them for not going.

Wal-Mart has a section of religious books labeled the "Inspirational Center" containing only Christian books. If only I had a car, I'd drive to each Wal-Mart and vandalize each one with the word, "Christian", and laugh as Wal-Mart sues me for revealing their prejudice.

Are all non-Christian books uninspired and uninspiring? Wal-Mart certainly thinks so.

Apparently, in the markets where Wal-Mart is present, Christian books sell like potato chips and cigarettes. I doubt that a book on Buddhism would sell as well in the rural areas of America. It's not Wal-Mart's job to be multi-cultural - not their job to inspire people - it's their job to make money for the shareholders. Anything that doesn't make money gets you fired. Additionally, I've noticed that Wal-Mart will sell ANYTHING at the drop of a hat - if they know they're going to make a quick buck.

As an example, during a G-8 meeting that was taking place in Georgia (the US), the nearby Wal-Mart put up an impromptu sale for poster board, markers, paint, and other material to make signs. They also sold American flags, and put them together with lighter fluid and road flares - knowing that the protesters not only wanted to make signs, but burn flags as well.

I know some of the guys whom ran security for the G8 summit. They were out of Jacksonville NAS and were put up at our appartment complex. When I was told they were running security I asked them to beat some hippies for me. Unfortunantly, I don't think they did. :(

Indoctrination, proselytization and preaching are all parts of life, Pltuophobia. You can't escape people telling you how you ought to live, act, believe, etc. etc., especially when you're young. It's how virtues and vices are instilled in you.

I would also note that it is the religious duty of Chritistians to proselytize. Christ commanded them to go forth like sheep amongst the wolves, remember? It's the father's duty to teach his son about God and Christ; it'd be a sin not to. I think painting the Christians as forcing their children to believe in Christianity as being somehow wrong is itself mistaken.
Religion is usually a very good thing. Liberals attack it quite often, being ignorant of its immense benefits. And really, one major problem I have with sects that discourage questioning is that the parents may end up abusing their children if they question things. Many on my mother's family are strongly Conservative. When I started studying Wicca, I wasn't able to tell any of them, although my mother was fairly understanding.

Let me share a quote from a friend of mine that's majoring in Theology.

It's funny that Bush can be a Methodist, and Kerry a Catholic, and thus both can be called 'Christian', and yet each has an almost mirror image of what they've interpreted from the Bible.

Bush and the Republican party have read through the scripture and though they've understood and absorbed it all, they've really only emphasized the notion of being a servant to God, and loving Him and Jesus unconditionally, thus fearing and hating what is 'unChristian'.

Kerry, on the other hand, seems to have emphasized the idea of loving thy neighbour, which though it conflicts with Bush's idea of Christianity certainly and adequately fulfills the idea of loving God unconditionally -- for mankind is God's creation and thus to love thy neighbour (disregarding all differences) is to love God.

Same scripture, different emphasis on interpretation. It's just shitty that the U.S. seems dominated by these two extremes, and can't come to a consensus between the two.
I guess really what bothers me is Conservative Christianity, those who love their lives, relative interpretations, and traditions more than mankind. Serving God is serving mankind, and serving mankind is serving God. Whoever separated those two was wrong.

You dont have any children of your own do you? You are grossly underestimating the abilities of children. As one who teaches children in a religious setting, I am in a position to tell you that without a doubt, your view is incorrect. The week before last I spent some time talking with a 10 year old girl who was questioning the validity of the bible. This is not uncommon, often I have to throw out the lesson for the day and just dedicate myself to answering questions. Girls openly question far more than boys, but I bet you boys just keep it to themselves.

If you want evidence of what little effect "indoctrination" has on children, you need look no further than this forum. Ask the atheists here if they were raised in a religion and a surprising number of them will tell you they were.
You need to substantiate that. In my opinion, atheism is, itself, a religion (as a belief system) not the absence of it. As such, it wouldn't be fundamentally different from any others.

People speak of christian sects that are taught not to question all the time, but what amazes me is that in all of my travels and all of the many churches I have attended around the world, Ive yet to find the church these people speak of. I am beginning to think it does not exist.
The Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, and Army of God are prime examples. Although, most Christians I speak with are the same way. When you try to debate the logical reasoning behind their religion, they always get angry. Even if you aren't trying to prove it wrong, but arguing, to come to a truthful conclusion, they constantly say they don't want their religion to be attacked. So, really, although children question, just like college students, if a child outright says they don't believe in Christ's divinity or the Bible at all, you'd try desperately to re-educate them. When you look at the number of "homosexual treatment centers" throughout the U.S. and Canada (despite the fair amount of evidence that homosexuality is not a Biblical sin), you can't dispute this. In some sects, it's okay to question, but as long as you accept the Christian answer.

Talk about preachy - you fit the bill well yourself. You draw very weak links between words and try to suggest synonimity (a word? now it is!)

You could make the same point that education or teaching is indoctrination. Yet you make no excuses for children being 'indoctrined' with history, reading or math from a very young age.

You measure the results by your own perceived values - considered a fatal mistake among sociologists.
I did that in some cases, yes, but I'm not going to debate about the infallibility of Christianity here. My point was to compare its preaching with the supposed 'indoctrination' in colleges. Politicians charge there is indoctrination there, that students are being brainwashed, because professors are putting forth opinions and facts together, with their own slant on things. Churches do the same thing with children - they put forth opinions mixed with facts, that are slanted and biased. This is not based on my own percieved values, because I am not judging value in terms of good or bad, but simply classifying what the act is. In both cases, it is the same act, with the same intent. Educating and persuading to agree with a certain opinion.

You also make many unsubstantiated claims. Do you have evidence that all or even a majority of Christians consider their peer religions, be they Judaism or Hindu, indoctrination?
I don't need specific data, because that inferences was based solely on our language. The term "preach" has a generally positive connotation (as both Conservatives and hopefully liberals should agree), but "indoctrinating" and "prosletyzing" have strong negative connotations, though they're the same act. And you don't have 'preachers' for any religion other than Christianity. It doesn't need to be statistically verified. 'Preaching', and 'sermonzing' are used almost solely by Christianity.

Finally, Wal Mart is a private organization. Since they are in a nation where 90% of people claim to believe in God, and the vast majority the judeo christian god, it makes little sence to expect them to not reflect that in their spiritual section.
The "Judeo-Christian" God, not the Christian God. My area is made up of primarily minorities, particularly immigrants. That means we have a lot of Muslims and Hindus. They're a private company and can do what they want, but I'm just pointing the hypocrasy. It says, "Inspirational Center", but that's not what it is. It's a Christian Inspirational Center. There's nothing but Christian books there. Non-Christian books can be inspiring. Just call it what it is!

hear hear! I agree, all of my friends and I were all "indoctrinated" as you say to be Christians, yet one is a druggie agnostic who can prove that there is a supernatural, he just isn't sure about all that Jesus stuff. Another friend is (prepare for a Christian term) "a strong man of God" but he has gone through more than enough to turn him away. I was not indoctrinated, I went to Sunday School because I loved my parents and they wanted me to go, so I obeyed. Later I found out for myself what I believe.
Your friend is an example of one of the problems of this. I have two friends just like him, one's even the son of a priest in Finland. Then, I'm friends with an ex-Christian pastor.

This major problem of not allowing people to dissent is what makes people become disillusioned with the church. There's evidence that Christianity is in decline.
http://www.teal.org.uk/stats/key.htm

Uhh, this sounds suspiciously fake, or else you're the kind of firking annoying psychotic anti-christian that makes us level-headed atheists look bad
I'm not actually anti-Christian, but anti-Fundamentalist, of all religions (except perhaps Judaism). Christianity is a beautiful religion that brings morality to the world. But most of the experiences I've had with Christians and their doctrine, however, are not quite as beautiful, if you understand what I mean. ;)

One of the most pertinent goals of propaganda is to first creat obfuscation by redefining words to suit your goal, as this author is making a very poor attempt at doing. Different words have different meanings for a reason. Any attempt to redefine them reveals an agenda.
No, I am pointing out that the words we use now are already propaganda. A Mullah, a Swami, a Yogi, a Monk, and a Rabbi, are just as holy as a "preacher." We should not use such discriminatory connotations from our language, because they change our perceptions of reality (gah, I wish remembered the name of that theory--definitions determine reality, not the other way around.. oh well.) But no, I'm not suggesting that we create words which make one group, such as Christians, look bad, but that we remove the pro-Christian bias from our language. If college professors are indoctrinating for persuading others to believe their opinions in a formal setting, then Christians whom bring up politics are indoctrinating as well. And if Christians which spread their message are preachers, then so are people of all religions. Basically, what I mean is that we should remove the Christian artwork from the Supreme Court of our language.

Psst. Look more carefully. There are secular self-help books in that section, even some that approach new-age philosophy.
The approach? No. I looked at it twice, last time I was there. I counted every book. Around 50 or 60, if I remember correctly. Every single one was Christian. Maybe your Wal-Mart is different. I don't know. Last Christmas, because Wal-Mart is supposed to be for "everyone." Yet, they only had Christmas gifts. I laughed when all of a sudden, a country song came on, where a guy was singing about Jesus. When I walked out, I gave the Salvation Army guy a few bucks and he said, "Merry Christmas. God Bless."

After all of that, I thought, "Fuck this. This isn't Wal-Mart. This is Christ-Mart."

Like I said, they're a private corporation, but call it what it is! If they're a Christian company, don't deny it. If they only sell holiday gifts for Christians and their store is geared towards Christians, admit it. The majority of America admit to believing in God, but 'Christians' are not the majority (with all other religions combined) and devout Christians definitely are not the majority.

No; it did, in fact, already exist.
Not according to dictionary.com.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=indoctrinator

Are they wrong?

I'm not sure I'd call all religion an attempt at enforcing absolutist ethics and unquestionable truths.. in the Greek tradition, we have a healthy mysticism that allows for a good deal of questioning and interpretation about the nature of God, such as we can trace from the Pseudo-Dionysius and to some degree Eriugena.. in other words, your interpretation of God's will, even if different from mine, is not impossible, and you're not "evil" for thinking that way, as long as you do so in earnest.. but that's just the way I see it.
Correction: The current Greek tradition. I mean, I know technically they were killed by the Romans, but don't forget about Socrates (killed for dishonoring the Gods) or the Christians that were thrown to the lions.

But that's fascinating way of looking at things. So, we can disagree, but one of us isn't going to hell, neither one of us is better than the other? Man, we need more Greek people in America. As of right now, I vote that we sell Texas to Mexico (to teach those southerners a lesson in selflessness) and annex Greece, in their place. Think of the wonderful salads! The baklava! Oh, oh, it will be glorious!

When something has been drilled into your head from the time you were born it doesn't occur to most children to question it. The shit typically hits the fan during the teenage years. If you haven't questioned the religion before you start to question it. And you might realize that these things your parents(who you are supposed to trust) have pushed on you just don't add up for you. This can be very devastating. This is how the church breeds hate. We don't just hate it for shits and giggles. We hate it because we felt we were manipulated when we were unable to fight back.
Hmm, Church offered you love and you return hate. Yet somehow you feel morally superior.
Did you notice how the Christian just called the manipulation 'love'?

He felt manipulated and he was hurt by that, legitimately hurt. But you invalidate his feelings and ignore his experiences, calling it 'love.'

The church offered him love at the cost of independent thought

The price was too high
Haha.

Apparently, in the markets where Wal-Mart is present, Christian books sell like potato chips and cigarettes. I doubt that a book on Buddhism would sell as well in the rural areas of America.
I've discussed the economics before with otehrs. There's thousands of Hindus, Muslims, and Jews in my area. Hindu and Muslim books probably wouldn't sell too well, but Jewish books would definitely sell. No offense to anyone, but Jews buy the same garbage tabloid-like spiritual books that Christians do. The argument that they wouldn't sell doesn't hold any water.

As an example, during a G-8 meeting that was taking place in Georgia (the US), the nearby Wal-Mart put up an impromptu sale for poster board, markers, paint, and other material to make signs. They also sold American flags, and put them together with lighter fluid and road flares - knowing that the protesters not only wanted to make signs, but burn flags as well.
I guarantee you that was a decision made by one of the managers (especially an assistant manager), because they knew it would be profitable. If the corporation had found out (was this in the news?), there would've been a huge issue with it. Wal-Mart is extremely patriotic. In the backroom, they have pictures of the American flag with Sam Walton quotes on it. When the video we saw of Sam-Walton first started playing, it started off with an American flag. In Wal-Mart's magazine, "Wal-Mart World", there was one photo I remember seeing, of a manufacturing plant with a huge American flag on the wall. I'm sure if a customer complained to the manager that there's only Christian books, they'd start selling non-Christian books (if possible), but it seems to me that this was a corporate decision. Even when our store had a change of managers, they still only sold Christian books in the "Inspirational Center." (One thing to clarify--the "Inspirational Center" is just a 4 ft x 4 ft. display of spiritual books. They have secular books in their other book section, yes, but in their religious section, "Inspirational Center", only Christian books)

But let me clarify this again: The goal of this thread was not to attack Christianity, but to show the striking parallels between the "indoctrination" in colleges and the "preaching" in churches. They are the same act. If one is bad, they are both bad. And if you don't believe Christian indoctrinate, I suggest you mosey on over to http://www.exchristian.net/ and ask them what they think on their forums.

The Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, and Army of God are prime examples. Although, most Christians I speak with are the same way. When you try to debate the logical reasoning behind their religion, they always get angry. Even if you aren't trying to prove it wrong, but arguing, to come to a truthful conclusion, they constantly say they don't want their religion to be attacked. So, really, although children question, just like college students, if a child outright says they don't believe in Christ's divinity or the Bible at all, you'd try desperately to re-educate them. When you look at the number of "homosexual treatment centers" throughout the U.S. and Canada (despite the fair amount of evidence that homosexuality is not a Biblical sin), you can't dispute this. In some sects, it's okay to question, but as long as you accept the Christian answer.



First, let me state that Christian fundamentalism is a huge problem. We both agree that questioning one's religion is an essential part of that religion. That said, aa few minor problems that I have with this statement:
1) I've talked to a number of Jehovah's Witnesses and found them remarkably willing to reason and talk on the bible, not close-minded at all. Mormons were much less willing, and I don't know what the Army of God is.
Secondly, homosexuality is obviously a biblical sin. "Men who lie with men" are grouped in with thieves and other sinners.

Hmm, Church offered you love and you return hate. Yet somehow you feel morally superior.
it doesn't sound like the "love" he was being offered was worthy of being called love. it sounds more like the "love" of a controlling and abusive relationship. i think anger and outrage are the correct responses to that sort of "love."

The Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, and Army of God are prime examples.

Not at all. I cant speak for Mormons or Army of God, but Jehova's Witnesses are very open to allowing you to question. In fact, they provide their members with extensive material in both book and cd format so they can look things up when they have doubts. They encourage discussion and talking about those things you may have doubts about.


Although, most Christians I speak with are the same way. When you try to debate the logical reasoning behind their religion, they always get angry. Even if you aren't trying to prove it wrong, but arguing, to come to a truthful conclusion, they constantly say they don't want their religion to be attacked

And you dont see why that might be? Obviously they are not interested in debate. Not everyone is interested in debating things and if you are constantly trying to debate with people you eventually will lose them as your friend. I dont see how an unwillingness to debate translates into teaching not to question.


So, really, although children question, just like college students, if a child outright says they don't believe in Christ's divinity or the Bible at all, you'd try desperately to re-educate them.

Not at all. You discuss it with them, you address their questions and concerns, you give them the guidance they need and you let them know you are open to discussing it further with them whenever they want.


When you look at the number of "homosexual treatment centers" throughout the U.S. and Canada (despite the fair amount of evidence that homosexuality is not a Biblical sin), you can't dispute this. In some sects, it's okay to question, but as long as you accept the Christian answer.


Oh, so you know for a fact that there are many homosexual treatment centers eh? Then please, tell me how many, and show me your sources. In fact, Id like you to point me to some.

The fact is you are free to question whatever you want and believe whatever you want. Ive never found a church that says otherwise, despite having lived in many different places and visited a large number of different churches of various denominations. I have yet to find one that discourages questioning. Faith comes not from blind beleif, but from understanding.

I would also note that it is the religious duty of Chritistians to proselytize. Christ commanded them to go forth like sheep amongst the wolves, remember? It's the father's duty to teach his son about God and Christ; it'd be a sin not to. I think painting the Christians as forcing their children to believe in Christianity as being somehow wrong is itself mistaken.
They were also commanded to be known by their works, not by their "much preaching." Some of them tend to ignore or forget this. :(

They were also commanded to be known by their works, not by their "much preaching." Some of them tend to ignore or forget this. :(
yeah, they seem to also forget this little tidbit from their Savior:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret..." (Matthew 6: 5-6)

First, let me state that Christian fundamentalism is a huge problem.

As a Christian fundamentalist, I fail to see where I'm causing a problem. I'm not knocking on doors, harassing people, teaching creationism, and not gay bashing. Our church welcomes gays - and says nothing about homosexuality, as we don't think it's relevant.

How is it a "huge" problem?

yeah, they seem to also forget this little tidbit from their Savior:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret..." (Matthew 6: 5-6)

Very true. Publicly showing how pious you are is not exactly a requirement for Christians. However, Matthew 28:19:
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations"
If they aren't interested in being disciples, leave them alone. But for a Christian to believe something and not talk about it is somehow hypocritical. Maybe I'm naive, but I think one can talk about their beliefs without forcing them down the other persons throat.

As a Christian fundamentalist, I fail to see where I'm causing a problem. I'm not knocking on doors, harassing people, teaching creationism, and not gay bashing. Our church welcomes gays - and says nothing about homosexuality, as we don't think it's relevant.

How is it a "huge" problem?

fun·da·men·tal·ism
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

I'm sorry, I used the connotation of the owrd, not the denotation. By fundamentalist, what I actually meant was the politically active "Chritian right-wing". My apologies. I happen to believe that chuch and state should be seperate.

Very true. Publicly showing how pious you are is not exactly a requirement for Christians. However, Matthew 28:19:
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations"
If they aren't interested in being disciples, leave them alone. But for a Christian to believe something and not talk about it is somehow hypocritical. Maybe I'm naive, but I think one can talk about their beliefs without forcing them down the other persons throat.
Yes, Christians are commanded to make disciples, but it's all in how you do it. "By their works shall you know them," and "people will know you because you love one another." It's by a life lived according to the principles and behaviors you preach, not by simply preaching at others.

Very true. Publicly showing how pious you are is not exactly a requirement for Christians. However, Matthew 28:19:
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations"
If they aren't interested in being disciples, leave them alone. But for a Christian to believe something and not talk about it is somehow hypocritical. Maybe I'm naive, but I think one can talk about their beliefs without forcing them down the other persons throat.
i'm not so much concerned with their efforts to discuss their faith, but i think the passage i quoted needs to be thrown in the face of every advocate of public school enforced prayer...after all, they are advocating that children be compelled to do something that directly contradicts the Bible, yet they claim to be doing it in the name of their God! :)

fun·da·men·tal·ism
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

I'm sorry, I used the connotation of the owrd, not the denotation. By fundamentalist, what I actually meant was the politically active "Chritian right-wing". My apologies. I happen to believe that chuch and state should be seperate.
Yes, there is a requirement that government not endorse or support any religion, however this does not prohibit citizens from acting politically upon what they believe.

fun·da·men·tal·ism
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

I'm sorry, I used the connotation of the owrd, not the denotation. By fundamentalist, what I actually meant was the politically active "Chritian right-wing". My apologies. I happen to believe that chuch and state should be seperate.


I believe they should be separate as well. In fact, I don't believe the state should be involved in things like marriage (no government issued marriage licenses, no tax advantages to married couples). That way, anyone could start a church and marry any group of consenting adults they wanted - without government interference. The government should also stop sponsoring things like Muslim prayer rooms in public schools while banning everyone else from having such a room.

The more the government gets involved in anything, the worse things get. Look what the Great Society programs of the 1960s did to African-American families. It was a greater disaster than slavery itself.

i'm not so much concerned with their efforts to discuss their faith, but i think the passage i quoted needs to be thrown in the face of every advocate of public school enforced prayer...after all, they are advocating that children be compelled to do something that directly contradicts the Bible, yet they claim to be doing it in the name of their God! :)

Ah yes, public school prayer. As another post of mine stated, I wish church and state were seperate. Public school is secular, not religious, and should be treated that way.
PS- with regard to the evolution theory, I think it should be taught in school, but it should also be stressed that it is hardly proven fact; merely the predominant scientific model of the origin of the universe.

Yes, there is a requirement that government not endorse or support any religion, however this does not prohibit citizens from acting politically upon what they believe.

Oh, I know. I just would never, ever vote for someone who used a religious issue as a political platform (badly worded- that would make voting impossible; what I actually mean is that someone who uses religion to reinforce their political platform instantly loses credibility)

Oh, I know. I just would never, ever vote for someone who used a religious issue as a political platform (badly worded- that would make voting impossible; what I actually mean is that someone who uses religion to reinforce their political platform instantly loses credibility)
Although there's no prohibition against it, appeals to religion to get elected demonstrate a certain lack of class. I am much more impressed by those few politicians who allow others to sing their praises, and who use their own public speeches to make substantive proposals about definite problems.

Hmm, Church offered you love and you return hate. Yet somehow you feel morally superior.

First I want to thank those who have already responded to this tard. Yes sir/ma'am you are a tard. Did you not understand something I typed? I clearly explained that I feel as though the church betrayed my trust as a child. Of course they said they loved me but that love was conditional(a thing love should never be). After 13 years of being told what to think I realized that I didn't agree with those conditions and I was angry that I had never even been asked what I thought. Now that I refuse to allow someone to think for me the church does not offer me love.

I never mentioned anything about feeling morally superior. Did you assume that? Because that crazy person doesn't want to be told what to think she MUST think she's better. My morals work for me. Whether they're better or not isn't my concern. I guess the next thing that we will be assuming is that I'm some idiot punk kid cause I have pink hair right? Let's see what I can assume about you. I'll say you're an uppety Christian who thinks that anyone who disagrees with your beliefs is somehow less of a person? I bet you also eat babies.

Don't be an ass.