NationStates Jolt Archive

The courts, television, the government. u name a topic and i garuntee u that something is messed up with it. I dont know why people want to move here, i want to get out. I dont want to live where guilty men walk free, or where people read about realtionships about the rich while the poor are given more dirt to swallow. Does anyone else agree? Can u think of something i missed.

Here's another thing that's wrong with America: its inablility to teach you proper grammar.

Here's another thing that's wrong with America: its inablility to teach you proper grammar.
So education.

The courts, television, the government. u name a topic and i garuntee u that something is messed up with it. I dont know why people want to move here, i want to get out. I dont want to live where guilty men walk free, or where people read about realtionships about the rich while the poor are given more dirt to swallow. Does anyone else agree? Can u think of something i missed.

Hmmm, whats wrong with America? Im not sure its kinda hard to group alot of countries into one big paragraph.

Hey, Valia! Where you been man?

Hey, Valia! Where you been man?

Erm, playing Eve Online and writing my book.

Erm, playing Eve Online and writing my book.You've been writing a book? What about?

You've been writing a book? What about?

A satire about life in 21st century US.

Sounds cool. How far are you?

It's far from perfect, but compared with every other country on the planet, the US wins.

Sounds cool. How far are you?

Well, Ive been writing for a little over a year and I have about 400 pages so far with no end in sight. :/

What's wrong with America? Too much to list. One thing that really bothers me is that Americans seem to argue more over politics than the European or Aussie people on here. Or any other group of people for that matter. I'm guilty of this but I wouldn't say I do it near as much as others. Do they really think this going to help anyone/ Make any change? Do they really think people are going to listen to them? Or that they are going to change their beliefs?

It's far from perfect, but compared with every other country on the planet, the US wins.

You're kidding, right?

What's wrong with America? Tons, a whole lot more than I'm going to bother to list out. But what's wrong with all the other countries in the world? Just as much, I gaurantee you, and in a lot of places quite a bit more.

Hmmm, whats wrong with America? Im not sure its kinda hard to group alot of countries into one big paragraph.

Yes, america is oh so perfect. Other countries are the ones that are messing things in america, generating more rich and many more poor, screwing up the environment, etc...

What?! A human institution that has inherent flaws and can never be perfected? OUTRAGEOUS! I DEMAND SOMETHING BE DONE!

You're kidding, right?
No... overall, the US is the best place to live. That is, unless, you like either insecurity, bad education, poor social welfare, crappy healthcare benefits... the list goes on. Sure, it's not the best in any of those areas, but when you add it all up, Americans are pretty damn lucky.

What's wrong with America? Too much to list. One thing that really bothers me is that Americans seem to argue more over politics than the European or Aussie people on here. Or any other group of people for that matter. I'm guilty of this but I wouldn't say I do it near as much as others. Do they really think this going to help anyone/ Make any change? Do they really think people are going to listen to them? Or that they are going to change their beliefs?

*falls over laughing*

...which is why a substantial number of americans don't vote and are totally ignorant about anything politically related. yeah, we really love our politics.

Yes, america is oh so perfect. Other countries are the ones that are messing things in america, generating more rich and many more poor, screwing up the environment, etc...

........................... Wow, way to attack me without thinking. The thread writer said "America". Now since you live in Portugal and im not sure you understand this concept of the North American, South American Continent system im going to make it easy. He never specified a country, is he talking about Canada, Argentina, US, or Brazil? We'll never know will we?

It's far from perfect, but compared with every other country on the planet, the US wins.

Really? How? Social security is fucked up. You can't die with dignity since politicians will use you for their power struggle. The medical system, no comment, I only say, if a nurse asks for your insurance card before she does anything something is wrong. Millions of guns in the hands of people who're not in law enforcement or military. People who basically fear everything (otherwise they wouldn't need that many guns). Economy that's going downhill faster than Hermann Maier on the Streif in Kitzbühl (heck, atm companies connected to Airbus are trying to get a foot into the door of the USAF, ouch for Boeing). Incredible paranoia. Full scale ignoring the treaty of Kyoto (and yet still going downhill with the economy). Allowing Nazis run around freely... Etc, etc, etc...

I'd rather say the "American way of life" has turned into a road to hell.

Yes, america is oh so perfect. Other countries are the ones that are messing things in america, generating more rich and many more poor, screwing up the environment, etc...

Oh noes not ze environment! *starts putting people in death camps for hurting t3h environment*

Really? How? Social security is fucked up.

It's an inefficient system, which is why many people are pushing to eliminate it.

You can't die with dignity since politicians will use you for their power struggle.

*yawn*

The medical system, no comment, I only say, if a nurse asks for your insurance card before she does anything something is wrong.

yeah, especially when people are brought into emergency rooms. nope, there's nothing that says hospitals must treat you *cough*

Millions of guns in the hands of people who're not in law enforcement or military.

Wait, you just said politicians are power-hungry mongrels... and you want THEM to have all the guns? :confused:

People who basically fear everything (otherwise they wouldn't need that many guns).

*yawn*

Incredible paranoia.

Only as paranoid as you are about the environment and Americans.

Full scale ignoring the treaty of Kyoto (and yet still going downhill with the economy).

I guess that would mean it'd go down even more.

Allowing Nazis run around freely...

Fuck freedom of speech. *excuse me* Fuck it only when I disagree with it politically.

Etc, etc, etc...

your brilliant assessment has turned me on to hating america. thank you, kind sir. your intellect and convincing arguments shall treat you well in the future. *bows*

Really? How? Social security is fucked up. You can't die with dignity since politicians will use you for their power struggle. The medical system, no comment, I only say, if a nurse asks for your insurance card before she does anything something is wrong. Millions of guns in the hands of people who're not in law enforcement or military. People who basically fear everything (otherwise they wouldn't need that many guns). Economy that's going downhill faster than Hermann Maier on the Streif in Kitzbühl (heck, atm companies connected to Airbus are trying to get a foot into the door of the USAF, ouch for Boeing). Incredible paranoia. Full scale ignoring the treaty of Kyoto (and yet still going downhill with the economy). Allowing Nazis run around freely... Etc, etc, etc...

I'd rather say the "American way of life" has turned into a road to hell.
I'm not saying the US is a nice little piece of heaven on earth, but I'd rather live here than anywhere else, despite the idiots in office right now. Just be greatful for what you've got, dammit. I'd damn well rather be living here than in Sudan or some other fucked up country like that. You have the right to complain about the things that aren't going right at the moment, but don't just sit down and say America is the road to hell. Don't be so frigging ungreatful. I'm really tired of it.

Out of curiosity, why does something have to be wrong with America? Why can't it just be what it is? When other countries decide certain things no one seems to care--but when America does something the whole world watches, critcizes and goes on and on about how much better they would do in a similar position when they aren't even remotely close. Most countries wouldn't even be in a position to comment on anything if we did nothing-as much of the world wishes we did-they would, however, be speaking German, Japanese, or Russian.

No... overall, the US is the best place to live. That is, unless, you like either insecurity, bad education, poor social welfare, crappy healthcare benefits... the list goes on. Sure, it's not the best in any of those areas, but when you add it all up, Americans are pretty damn lucky.

So, all this stuff I've heard about Australia and Sweden (among other European nations) is complete and utter bullshit? I think not.

Talk about poor social welfare and crappy healthcare benefits, 'cause that's exactly what the good-old U.S. of A. has. And don't even get me started on bad education...

So, all this stuff I've heard about Australia and Sweden (among other European nations) is complete and utter bullshit? I think not.

Talk about poor social welfare and crappy healthcare benefits, 'cause that's exactly what the good-old U.S. of A. has. And don't even get me started on bad education...

I lived in France for a number of years-the education was too narrow, the health care was sub par compared to the breadth of knowledge and technology doctors have in the US, and the grass is always going to be greener on the otherside (especially when hot australian accents are involved...)

Wait, you just said politicians are power-hungry mongrels... and you want THEM to have all the guns? :confused:
They DO have the right to judge and punish, don't they? Not the citizens. You do know that once the citizens get that right, the whole country gets thrown into anarchy, don't you?

Fuck freedom of speech. *excuse me* Fuck it only when I disagree with it politically.
Hey, as long as they don't act on their beliefs in a negative way towards anyone, I'm fine.

That's my bit in response to that one.

So, all this stuff I've heard about Australia and Sweden (among other European nations) is complete and utter bullshit? I think not.

Talk about poor social welfare and crappy healthcare benefits, 'cause that's exactly what the good-old U.S. of A. has. And don't even get me started on bad education...

I don't think social welfare and healthcare can entirely constitute a nation's worth. Unless you're always getting hurt and are poor.

They DO have the right to judge and punish, don't they? Not the citizens. You do know that once the citizens get that right, the whole country gets thrown into anarchy, don't you?

I honestly thought it was by the people and for the people... not by the politicians for the people. The politicians are there to represent the people. This doesnt mean they should always do what the people say - eg, if the people want something UNconstitutional.

America is pretty nice, i guess, i can say fuck in public, fuck...

About Politicians: first thing we learned in law school is that the famers of the constitution set up the system of government so as to protect the plebians (i.e. you and I) from themselves, and make it so the elites hold most of the power. Albeit the elites are the idiots in congress and the senate..but those idiots we put there. Beauty of our country is you can change who those idiots are. Most people, myself included, just don't give enough of a shit to go out and vote

I honestly thought it was by the people and for the people... not by the politicians for the people. The politicians are there to represent the people. This doesnt mean they should always do what the people say - eg, if the people want something UNconstitutional.
I'm sorry, what the hell does that have to do with it?

You're talking about the democratic side of our government. We get to elect leaders who share our point of view (well, mostly, anyway). That has nothing to do with the right to judge and punish and the gun control issue. Do you even know what I'm talking about? If the people had the right to judge and punish, I could shoot my neighbor for raising a dog who will NOT shut UP and keeps me up at night. Now, that's just not good. And that is going to happen if "every nut and his cousin," as the NS issue reads, gets a gun.

Our biggest problems here in the U.S. of A. would likely be that we have the silly notion in our head that love for one's country means devotion to the current, semi-disposable leader, and all who question it apparently hate the nation with all their black little hearts. We're too gullible. We think that the first source we get on a topic, most often a chilled press and a censored media, knows best and is always right. We think our religion is the only one, so it's okay if we slant our system of law dramatically towards it.

We're brainwashed ever-so-subtley to a state of conformed jingoism, right from our first recital of the Pledge of Allegiance...

Okay. When you speak of America, I'll assume that you are talking about the United States of America. This narrows the spectrum of criticism quite amiably.

From all that can be seen of this society, its fundamental flaws seem to include an astonishing lack of credibility, corruption (especially in the media, where reports of practically anything are blown out of proportion due to capitalistic competition for the "most interesting story") and an undeniable measure of apathy in the youth, brought on by the mindless and resigned existence of the working class. In short, the "American Dream" has been conquered by unrealistic goals, over-simplified fears, and the faceless mask of societical apathy. There is no hope of a better future, so why bother? In some way or another, someone will always lose.

Unfortunately, most of these shortcomings will be found practically everywhere, in some way or another. The only true key to happiness under the [coercive] control of a government is to be a vital part of the making of it yourself. The United States is too well-established for a revolution unless it brings it upon itself. At this point, the US will only fall slowly into decadence and decay, or fall quickly into anarchy, for a new nation to rise from the ashes. It is difficult to say which is more merciful.

The cycle has existed since civilization itself.

Okay. When you speak of America, I'll assume that you are talking about the United States of America. This narrows the spectrum of criticism quite amiably.

From all that can be seen of this society, its fundamental flaws seem to include an astonishing lack of credibility, corruption (especially in the media, where reports of practically anything are blown out of proportion due to capitalistic competition for the "most interesting story") and an undeniable measure of apathy in the youth, brought on by the mindless and resigned existence of the working class. In short, the "American Dream" has been conquered by unrealistic goals, over-simplified fears, and the faceless mask of societical apathy. There is no hope of a better future, so why bother? In some way or another, someone will always lose.

Unfortunately, most of these shortcomings will be found practically everywhere, in some way or another. The only true key to happiness under the [coercive] control of a government is to be a vital part of the making of it yourself. The United States is too well-established for a revolution unless it brings it upon itself. At this point, the US will only fall slowly into decadence and decay, or fall quickly into anarchy, for a new nation to rise from the ashes. It is difficult to say which is more merciful.

The cycle has existed since civilization itself.
You know, you just made me think of exactly how screwed we are if the US turns to anarchy. This is a fucking BIG country, and combine all the racists, gun nuts, hippies, etc., we've got a hell of a mess. We'll probably end up dividing into smaller countries--the area's just too big to take back control of once structure has been lost. Oh the place is in for some deep shit...

okay. yes, the US has problems. our country has -always- had problems. but nothing has ever been solved by simply giving up and turning a blind eye to the problem. Bush has shown us this. Social Security is not a messed up system. Our education is just as good as any other country, but no one in elected offices seems to feel that way. The power is with the people and always has been. If it hadn't been with the people....don't you think the US government would have been overthrown?

Anyway, back to what is really annoying about this thread. First, if you're not an American citizen, you can't do a damn thing about any of these issues, so do us -all- a favor and shut up. Secondly, if you are an American citizen then get out there and fix the system. Vote for it to make it happen. Don't just sit there and say "Wow I hate this system. It sucks. I guess I won't vote." All that will get you is a continuation of the system you already hate and maybe something worse. Go out and be active instead of wasting your time bitching about it online.

You know, you just made me think of exactly how screwed we are if the US turns to anarchy. This is a fucking BIG country, and combine all the racists, gun nuts, hippies, etc., we've got a hell of a mess. We'll probably end up dividing into smaller countries--the area's just too big to take back control of once structure has been lost. Oh the place is in for some deep shit...

At least the world's self-appointed police force would be disbanded... *cough*

Eh, it might be a while before all that happens, though. However, either invasion, reformation or revolution is inevitable. It can only be delayed while the lives of those in the US spiral slowly downward. You can only stretch something so thinly before it breaks or disappears entirely (it's hard to say whether the people US are more like a rubber band or butter on a large piece of toast. hmm, perhaps someone should address that)

You know, you just made me think of exactly how screwed we are if the US turns to anarchy. This is a fucking BIG country, and combine all the racists, gun nuts, hippies, etc., we've got a hell of a mess. We'll probably end up dividing into smaller countries--the area's just too big to take back control of once structure has been lost. Oh the place is in for some deep shit...

Heh, when you dwell on the fact that revolt was exactly what made the States, it's a wonder it's lasted this long in the first place...

At least the world's self-appointed police force would be disbanded... *cough*

Eh, it might be a while before all that happens, though. However, either invasion, reformation or revolution is inevitable. It can only be delayed while the lives of those in the US spiral slowly downward. You can only stretch something so thinly before it breaks or disappears entirely (it's hard to say whether the people US are more like a rubber band or butter on a large piece of toast. hmm, perhaps someone should address that)
Rubber band. We'll break and rebel, it's inevitable. That is, unless if the government performs mandatory lobotomy on all citizens and implants a chip to get rid of independent thought, in which case, we're butter, and we're screwed.

if you are an American citizen then get out there and fix the system. Vote for it to make it happen. Don't just sit there and say "Wow I hate this system. It sucks. I guess I won't vote." All that will get you is a continuation of the system you already hate and maybe something worse. Go out and be active instead of wasting your time bitching about it online.

1. I am a naturalized American citizen. I am also a citizen of France, as well as a citizen of Germany (Odd, eh)
2. Voting for our *republic* leaders has no effect on the system itself, only the morally decrepit individuals who reside within its mechanics. Those who can amend the constitution are not elected, instead they are chosen! which means that we, as citizens, have NO control (not even indirectly!) of the workings of this nation. All we can do is make life such a living hell for the judicial system that they either:
A: Give up and give us the freedom which our country is founded on but has yet to exhibit
B: Initiate a state of total control on par with corrupt dictatorships similar to those who ran rampant prior to the era of the French Revolution.
C: Not care? and continue the legacy of blind-eyed approaches to society's most pressing problems, like "Is evolution unconstitutional" or "Should we allow two people of the same sex to enter into a socially binding contract, and call it marriage?"
Such a joining-of-forces is now all too impossible for the apathetic United States. Everyone is now just along for the ride.


Unfortunately, it is not the job of US citizens to have a say in how their government works -- only who runs it. We are a republic, not a democracy.
Something this large can only efficiently be a dictatorship and not be blinded by bureaucracy and corruption.

Rubber band. We'll break and rebel, it's inevitable. That is, unless if the government performs mandatory lobotomy on all citizens and implants a chip to get rid of independent thought, in which case, we're butter, and we're screwed.

The government doesn't even need that. All they need are fancy words and a convenient dogma to turn the ignorant majority against a level-headed speaker. Oh, and I suppose threatening the local news or buying the more popular radio stations is a good method, too.

I'm sorry, what the hell does that have to do with it?

You're talking about the democratic side of our government. We get to elect leaders who share our point of view (well, mostly, anyway). That has nothing to do with the right to judge and punish and the gun control issue. Do you even know what I'm talking about? If the people had the right to judge and punish, I could shoot my neighbor for raising a dog who will NOT shut UP and keeps me up at night. Now, that's just not good. And that is going to happen if "every nut and his cousin," as the NS issue reads, gets a gun.

That's quite funny; especially the line that reads, "If the people had the right to judge and punish..." Since you seem to know quite a bit about our government it would be unnecessary to point out that all trials in the United States are prosecuted before a jury of the defendants peers, correct? This jury "judges" the defendant, and if a verdict of guilty is reached this same jury also decides the degree of punishment. However that is nothing like, "If the people had the right to judge and punish...," right?

About your conclusion concerning gun control I am a bit confused. Do you think everyone person who own a gun is a "nut?" You seem to imply that normal law abiding citizens will lose all sense of reality if they utilize their right to own a firearm. Having grown up around responsible firearm use, I can attest to the opposite. Gun control is misguided solution because it doesn't address the problem. It is much akin to outlawing suicide to stop depressed people from killing themselves. We've all seen how well that works. Education has always and will always be the best solution to modleling behavior. We have safe sex education, so why not have gun education in school? "Guns in school! You are out of your mind!" That's what they said about safe sex education 50 years ago.

The government doesn't even need that. All they need are fancy words and a convenient dogma to turn the ignorant majority against a level-headed speaker. Oh, and I suppose threatening the local news or buying the more popular radio stations is a good method, too.

I agree, the media is too.. biased and susceptible to censorship and misinformation.

Fortunately, there are some of us that pay no mind the mass media...

Education has always and will always be the best solution to modleling behavior.

*Nod* You have to indoctrinate them at an early, impressionable age. Otherwise, they get their own ideas and exercise freedom of thought. [/sarcasm]

*Nod* You have to indoctrinate them at an early, impressionable age. Otherwise, they get their own ideas and exercise freedom of thought. [/sarcasm]

So I suppose my parents teaching me morals was just a petty attempt at supressing my freedom and free thoughts. There are more positive connotative meaning behind the word "modeling" rather than what you were implying. I am suprised; usually wit accompanies sarcasm.

That's quite funny; especially the line that reads, "If the people had the right to judge and punish..." Since you seem to know quite a bit about our government it would be unnecessary to point out that all trials in the United States are prosecuted before a jury of the defendants peers, correct? This jury "judges" the defendant, and if a verdict of guilty is reached this same jury also decides the degree of punishment. However that is nothing like, "If the people had the right to judge and punish...," right?
You're misinterpreting this. I'm speaking of the judgement for the punishment of the offender, and the right to inflict or order the punishment. A jury is simply used in order to put a check on any biased induvidual.

About your conclusion concerning gun control I am a bit confused. Do you think everyone person who own a gun is a "nut?" You seem to imply that normal law abiding citizens will lose all sense of reality if they utilize their right to own a firearm. Having grown up around responsible firearm use, I can attest to the opposite. Gun control is misguided solution because it doesn't address the problem. It is much akin to outlawing suicide to stop depressed people from killing themselves. We've all seen how well that works. Education has always and will always be the best solution to modleling behavior. We have safe sex education, so why not have gun education in school? "Guns in school! You are out of your mind!" That's what they said about safe sex education 50 years ago.
Oh dear, you either are quite the newbie, as your post count would suggest, or you didn't notice the quotes (coughthisisapuppetnationcough). I'm not suggesting that everyone who owns a gun is a nut, but there are definately those gun nuts out there, you can't deny it. Plus, using the firearm would be a form of punishment to whoever you were harming by using it, and it would not make sense.

*Nod* You have to indoctrinate them at an early, impressionable age. Otherwise, they get their own ideas and exercise freedom of thought. [/sarcasm]

Objective education does that, doesn't it?

I agree, the media is too.. biased and susceptible to censorship and misinformation.

Fortunately, there are some of us that pay no mind the mass media...

Indeed. Though, I feel it more reasonable to, rather than blame the media, or even the people working the media, to blame the people working the workers of the media. While I do see some journalists and other dealers of the concept as corrupt and have lost sight of their duty as a member of the press, I unfortuntely see even more of those individuals as simply voices too hushed out to hear anymore..

Suddenly, Shadagast, you have changed the meaning of your previous post? Odd.

I thought you were talking about education in school, since that's what you said...

*shudders at the thought of public education*

suggesting that everyone who owns a gun is a nut, but there are definately those gun nuts out there, you can't deny it. Plus, using the firearm would be a form of punishment to whoever you were harming by using it, and it would not make sense.

umm, so gun nuts exist. does that justify gun control? there are people who transfer STDs. does that justify control on sex? there are people who use knives to stab. ban knives. there are drunk drivers. ban alcohol. is banning something really always the best solution?

umm, so gun nuts exist. does that justify gun control? there are people who transfer STDs. does that justify control on sex?
Let me introduce you to the condom.

there are people who use knives to stab. ban knives. there are drunk drivers. ban alcohol. is banning something really always the best solution?
Those have more than one use. The only use of a gun is to harm.

Because gun nuts exist, we must be careful, because we don't know precisely who those people are. We either need to keep close tabs on everyone who has a gun, or just not let them have guns at all. Besides, for what other reason do you have a gun other than to use it? If you have it and it becomes a necessity, someone's gonna end up shot. And it's not our right to do that. Sure, we're excused on defense, but do that too often and you get more and more leeway, leading into deeper and deeper issues.

Objective education does that, doesn't it?

Yes, however subjective (moral and hypothetical) does not.

Yes, however subjective (moral and hypothetical) does not.

But it takes more than just education to brainwash - for one, it's already been said that American youth are apathetic... so why should they give a shit about why the government is great. Two, generally preachy shit like this has the opposite effect - why do you think so many people who go to catholic schools end up not being catholic or not being very religious? More factors are neccessary if you wish to completely indoctrinate the youth - particularly they need to exist outside school AND the home. I think 1984 portrays an example of other influences and the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany is another example.

umm, so gun nuts exist. does that justify gun control? there are people who transfer STDs. does that justify control on sex? there are people who use knives to stab. ban knives. there are drunk drivers. ban alcohol. is banning something really always the best solution?

Gee, and here I was thinking that controlling something and banning something were two different things.

You know, it is possible to keep handguns and rifles legal, while simply keeping a better grip on the semi-automatics and military issue weaponry most 'gun nuts' are drawn to and are typically defined as having. I doubt the common public will miss arms whose purpose is less of 'self-defense' and more of 'a quick and efficient kill' all that much.

The only use of a gun is to harm.



Sometimes, you must harm to protect.

Okay, I'll make a scenario for you.

Gun control laws are enacted. All civilian firearms are confiscated, and made obscenely illegal. Your only protection is your trusty old baseball bat, and maybe a knife or something of the sort.

Ten rather large men come to your front door, wearing ski masks, and have no fear of being shot. Guns are illegal, and even if you have one and protect yourself from them, you will be jailed. They will have no fear. There are ten of them and one of you. You lose. They steal everything in your house, rape your wife, and go on their merry way, one home richer.

For lack of suitable protection (and your assailants know this), you lose everything valuable to you, become humiliated, not to mention your wife's trauma.

Anyhow, how likely is it that you will be randomly shot by some maniac? Really.

Oh, and did you know that ballistics can determine exactly which gun, down to the serial number a bullet was shot from if it is a non fragmentary projectile? Have no fear of "unknown shooters." That would require the ingenuity to re-rifle their barrel, use a shotgun, or build their own firearm (which defeats the purpose of gun control anyhow).

i wasn't trying to suggest i'm some xenophobic republican ass hole who fears everything that isn't white, christian, and heterosexual. several of my good friends are legal aliens and I make it a point to learn as much about their culture as I can, and a couple have taught me some of their first language. all this to say I'm happy you're a citizen (though i don't know how you can be a citizen of france and germany since the US doesn't allow dual citizenship O.o)

anyway, i see it like this: all this talk about revolution and stuff....it isn't true. we had our revolution. it was the civil war and by that point the US took up all the territory east of the mississippi. half of the modern day size of the country. yet in the end, the south surrendered and the nation was brought back together. every state needs eachother, just like every person, regardless of politics or anything like that, needs everyone else. the government doesn't need to change; the way people interact with the government needs to change. the way people see the government needs to change. we need less of this 'left wing media right wing media' bull shit and just the news. I think thats the problem with the whole apathetic trend in the youth. Whenever they think of politics they think of some show where people are screaming at eachother and nothing get accomplished. I think the way people -in- government interact with eachother needs to change. But it's a little unsettling to see how everyone just throws up their hands and decides that revolution is the only answer. Take it from me: it will not work.

It won't work because our entire government and way of life is based on the dependency of everyone on everyone else. So lets say that all 50 states broke away from eachother and the US was no more. Hawaii would be seized by some power, Alaska invaded by Russia or Canada so then all you have left are the 48 States. Now, how do you think trade would be affected? Wouldn't it be a pain in the ass to ship anything out of the territory? At some point people would say, "You know, it was easier when we were one country." and the US would be born again. We tried something similar to that our first 20 years or so. It was called the Articles of Confederation and it failed so horribly we had to go back and draft a constitution for a federal government, the structure of which has remained basicly unchanged ever since then.

So no, there is nothing wrong with our -form- of government, just how people interact with it and the way it interacts with itself.

Let me introduce you to the condom.

Let me introduce you to gun safety.


The only use of a gun is to harm.

And to defend.

We either need to keep close tabs on everyone who has a gun, or just not let them have guns at all.

Privacy sucks, doesn't it? Perhaps we should keep close tabs on anyone who criticizes the government. wHo knows, they may be a terrorist. and since terrorists exist, we must keep an eye on everyone who expresses resent towards the gov't.

Besides, for what other reason do you have a gun other than to use it?

Use it only when it's neccessary or for sport...

But it takes more than just education to brainwash - for one, it's already been said that American youth are apathetic... so why should they give a shit about why the government is great. Two, generally preachy shit like this has the opposite effect - why do you think so many people who go to catholic schools end up not being catholic or not being very religious? More factors are neccessary if you wish to completely indoctrinate the youth - particularly they need to exist outside school AND the home. I think 1984 portrays an example of other influences and the Hitler Youth of Nazi Germany is another example.

My point was not to lead to a discussion of social pressure and "brainwashing."

I only wished to stress, earlier, my distaste for public education and its all-too-often adverse effects on the growing mind. Individuals, I believe, should not all follow the same prescribed path of scholarly pursuits. And, with that, I drop completely the subject of education. It simply doesn't interest me enough. =P

...I'm speaking of the judgement for the punishment of the offender, and the right to inflict or order the punishment. A jury is simply used in order to put a check on any biased induvidual.

You are going to have to explain what you mean here. For the life of me I can't puzzle out what it means or more accuratley what you mean by it.


Oh dear, you either are quite the newbie, as your post count would suggest, or you didn't notice the quotes (coughthisisapuppetnationcough). I'm not suggesting that everyone who owns a gun is a nut, but there are definately those gun nuts out there, you can't deny it. Plus, using the firearm would be a form of punishment to whoever you were harming by using it, and it would not make sense.

Ok what I think you tried to establish here was that I am a "newbie" and therefore my agrument should be dismissed. Interesting tactic. Perhaps I should employ it more often.

I noticed the quotes. However, I formulated my response based on your surrounding argument.

You are absolutley right I can't deny that. Then again there are extremists in every group who take it beyond decency or standard ethics. I would, infact, be worried if there weren't any "gun nuts." At least now I know gun organizations exhibit tendencies of normal human groups.

So anything that is used as a form of punishment doesn't makes sense? I really didn't grasp the meaning of that last statement.

(though i don't know how you can be a citizen of france and germany since the US doesn't allow dual citizenship O.o)


Ju soli, Ju sanguine. Ju natura.

I'm a naturalized citizen. I'm only here to get my degree in Aerospace.. blah.

My mother is French, my father is German. I was naturalized. It's legal.

Suddenly, Shadagast, you have changed the meaning of your previous post? Odd.

I thought you were talking about education in school, since that's what you said...

*shudders at the thought of public education*

I did no such thing. Perhaps it was you who misinterpreted the meaning of what I wrote. In the statement I was refering to education as a whole and I still do now.

Let me introduce you to gun safety.
That doesn't help. I'm guessing the person who buys the weapon knows how to arm it.

And to defend.
A process which includes the harming of someone or something.

Privacy sucks, doesn't it? Perhaps we should keep close tabs on anyone who criticizes the government. wHo knows, they may be a terrorist. and since terrorists exist, we must keep an eye on everyone who expresses resent towards the gov't.
What?! Have you not noticed that I have liberal views?! Besides, I'm saying that if people want to be safe, and don't want to have their privacy invaded, guns should be almost completely done away with in the general population. I'm not trying to invade anyone's privacy. As a lib, the fourth amendment is one of the most important ones to me.

Use it only when it's neccessary or for sport...
Oh, yay! Killing for sport! That's just great. And it doesn't harm anything at all. Righty-o.

*falls over laughing*

...which is why a substantial number of americans don't vote and are totally ignorant about anything politically related. yeah, we really love our politics.

Yes, but perhaps they don't vote because their vote doesn't matter. I didn't say there was anything wrong with discussing or arguing about politics. I said so much arguing isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Here, let me quote you. *rolls eyes*

Education has always and will always be the best solution to modleling behavior. We have safe sex education, so why not have gun education in school? "Guns in school! You are out of your mind!" That's what they said about safe sex education 50 years ago.

What?! Have you not noticed that I have liberal views?! Besides, I'm saying that if people want to be safe, and don't want to have their privacy invaded, guns should be almost completely done away with in the general population. I'm not trying to invade anyone's privacy. As a lib, the fourth amendment is one of the most important ones to me.

yes, Ive noticed that. and you know what? is it really the governments business if you OWN a gun? there's a subtle difference.


Oh, yay! Killing for sport! That's just great. And it doesn't harm anything at all. Righty-o.

You've obviously never heard of hunting?...

You've obviously never heard of hunting?...

Well, technically, you're still harming whatever it is that you hunt... (heh)



And now is when I leave. The digression of this conversation is utter and complete, we are at the point of no return. The topic has changed to hunting. Later.

You are going to have to explain what you mean here. For the life of me I can't puzzle out what it means or more accuratley what you mean by it.
The government has the right to sentence (judge) and the right to put that sentence into effect (punish). Get it now?

Ok what I think you tried to establish here was that I am a "newbie" and therefore my agrument should be dismissed. Interesting tactic. Perhaps I should employ it more often.
No, I certainly did not. I just got one of those "distort your face by rubbing your hand all over it" moments when you didn't get the reference.

So anything that is used as a form of punishment doesn't makes sense? I really didn't grasp the meaning of that last statement.
The people don't have the right to punish. So you can't use anything to inflict harm. The government can through law, but the people can't. Grasp it? This isn't an opinion, this is a fact in the workings of the government. It's in the constitution somewhere--I'm scanning it at the moment trying to find the section.

What?! Have you not noticed that I have liberal views?! Besides, I'm saying that if people want to be safe, and don't want to have their privacy invaded, guns should be almost completely done away with in the general population. I'm not trying to invade anyone's privacy. As a lib, the fourth amendment is one of the most important ones to me.

Liberal or not you must admit it is sheer naiveity to believe that you will be safer by eliminating just ONE of the vast number of ways that human beings kill each other. Yes you remove a method of attack but you also remove a very reliable method of self defense. Which would you have a better chance of defending yourself with: a\an [insert anything] or a gun? Removing guns from the hands of responsible owners does nothing to stop the illegal obtaining of guns by criminals. What? You think they are going to listen to the law? They are criminals for pete's sake.


Oh, yay! Killing for sport! That's just great. And it doesn't harm anything at all. Righty-o.

Ever heard of trap shooting? Skeet shooting? Target shooting? Nothing gets harmed in this. Well that is unless you consider the clay pigeons' feelings. Poor clay pigeons...

The courts, television, the government. u name a topic and i garuntee u that something is messed up with it. I dont know why people want to move here, i want to get out. I dont want to live where guilty men walk free, or where people read about realtionships about the rich while the poor are given more dirt to swallow. Does anyone else agree? Can u think of something i missed.


then go somewhere eles you fashist there is nothing wrong with the united states but the goverment (gorge bush) :sniper:

Well, technically, you're still harming whatever it is that you hunt... (heh)

Yeah, but they are animals. And while Im generally against abhorrent abuse of animals, I really don't give a shit if you go and shoot a deer. And there is shooting targets or whatnot, sort of like archery.

yes, Ive noticed that. and you know what? is it really the governments business if you OWN a gun? there's a subtle difference.
Yes, because, like I said, it can lead to quite a bit of chaos, and they should be concerned. The people should be concerned as well, and THEY should be the ones forcing gun control onto the government through this concern. That's about the same as saying "is it really the government's business if you OWN a nuclear weapon?" Just on a smaller scale, and in greater numbers. Which really makes it just as much of a threat.

You've obviously never heard of hunting?...
I suppose there could be a few exceptions for that type of thing, provided that it is not purely for sport, and you actually hunt so that you both have the thrill of the hunt and you actually eat the animal. Otherwise it's just plain useless and cruel.

Here, let me quote you. *rolls eyes*

I made the statement about education in general. The sentences that came afterward just supported it. They had a different context which is what confused you.

*insert dramatics to compensate*

Ever heard of trap shooting? Skeet shooting? Target shooting? Nothing gets harmed in this. Well that is unless you consider the clay pigeons' feelings. Poor clay pigeons...

yeah, thats more of what I meant by sport.. hunting was the only thing that popped into my mind.

Yes, because, like I said, it can lead to quite a bit of chaos, and they should be concerned. The people should be concerned as well, and THEY should be the ones forcing gun control onto the government through this concern. That's about the same as saying "is it really the government's business if you OWN a nuclear weapon?" Just on a smaller scale, and in greater numbers. Which really makes it just as much of a threat.

Do you realize how much a nuclear weapon costs? No one save bill gates or a few other rich guys would be able to afford it. and why would they want it anyway? and comparing guns to nuclear weapons to laughable, as you really can't use a nuke in your own self-defense, because you'd kill yourself in the blast. whereas with a gun, you shoot the other person and save a misfire, protect yourself.

Otherwise it's just plain useless and cruel.

I admit just shooting an animal and doing nothing with it is cruel and in the spur of the moment I'd probably call that person an asshole to make an animal suffer. but I really don't care if it's a deer or any other of the game in the long run.

Liberal or not you must admit it is sheer naiveity to believe that you will be safer by eliminating just ONE of the vast number of ways that human beings kill each other. Yes you remove a method of attack but you also remove a very reliable method of self defense. Which would you have a better chance of defending yourself with: a\an [insert anything] or a gun? Removing guns from the hands of responsible owners does nothing to stop the illegal obtaining of guns by criminals. What? You think they are going to listen to the law? They are criminals for pete's sake.
You obviously can't get rid of everything harmful--I mean for god's sake, I can just picture it: "STEP AWAY FROM THE PAPER AND DON'T YOU DARE GIVE ANYONE A PAPERCUT." But guns are the most efficient way of killing a person these days. And, unlike most other objects, its only use is to harm. Sure, you can argue on target shooting, but what's the point of that unless you're planning on using the gun?

Ever heard of trap shooting? Skeet shooting? Target shooting? Nothing gets harmed in this. Well that is unless you consider the clay pigeons' feelings. Poor clay pigeons...
Like I said, what's the point?

Posted by a friend recently
---
Don't you hate it when the ignorant Americans on the forums are blindly convinced that America is the best country?

"We know our country isn't perfect, but it's closest."

"Even though Bush won, we are still the best country... Because we are America."

Sorry, United Statesians, but your arrogance and ignorance only reinforce the "American idiot" stereotype in this forum.

Please try to justify your belief that America is the best country.

We have a democracy!

Actually, you have a representative democracy, but so does Canada, the United Kingdom, and Germany, and other countries. As of 2003, the majority of the world's people live in representative democracies [1].

India is the largest democracy (democratic republic) in the world [7], and Switzerland is the strongest example of a direct democracy [8].

We have the Freedom of Speech!!!

It is true that the United States has the most liberal freedom of speech. However, other countries such as Canada, Germany, and the European Union also have the freedom of speech; generally, the only restrictions are for preventing hate speech.

Outlawing hate speech does not cause the downfall of democracy, as these countries also have a representative democracy, which I mentioned above.

The United States tied at 22nd or 23rd in the worldwide Freedom of the Press index in 2004, while eight countries tied for first place [9].

We are the most intellectually advanced!

No.

In general, America is backwards and conservative compared to other developed countries. [2]

By any measure, the United States remains a highly religious nation, compared to other developed countries. And its citizens tend to hold more conservative beliefs. For example, the percentage of adults who believe that "the Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word" is 5 times higher in the U.S. than in Britain. Church attendance is about 4 times higher in the U.S. than it is in Britain. 1 Similarly, according to one opinion poll, belief that "Human beings developed from earlier species of animals..." is much smaller in the United States (35%) than in other countries (as high as 82%).
This study compared the United States to the countries of Northern Ireland, Philippines, Ireland, Poland, Italy, New Zealand, Austria, Norway, Great Britain, Netherlands, West Germany, Russia, Slovenia, Hungary, and East Germany.

When asked to answer yes or no to, "The Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word," the third highest group (in terms of percentage) that answered yes was the United States (33.5%), compared to all the other countries listed above. In comparison, the percentage of Great Britain that answered yes was 7.0%. [3]

The United States ranked the highest for the following questions (compared to all the other countries listed above) [3]:

I definitely believe in "life after death" (55.0%)
I definitely believe in "the Devil." (45.4%)
I definitely believe in "Hell." (49.6%)
I definitely believe in "religious miracles." (45.6%)

In a survey that asked, "In your opinion, how true is this? Human beings developed from earlier species of animals," the percentage of people who answered yes was the lowest in the United States (<35.4%). In comparison, the percentage of Great Britain that answered yes was 76.7%. [3]

A study of mathematics and science literacy of 15-year-olds in developed countries was assessed in 2000. The United States ranked 18th in mathematical literacy, the top 8 mathematically-literate countries being Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Finland, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom, respectively. The United States ranked 14th in science literacy, the top 7 scientifically-literate countries being Korea, Japan, Finland, United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, respectively. [4]

This is likely due to the poor literacy levels of Americans, as shown in a 2000 comparison of reading literacy of 15-year-olds in developed countries. The United States ranked 15th in the combined literacy score, the top 3 countries being Finland, Canada, and New Zealand, respectively. For "retrieving information", the United States ranked 15th, the top 5 countries being Finland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Korea, respectively. For "interpreting results", the US ranked 15th, the top 2 countries being Finland and Canada, respectively. For "reflecting on texts", the US ranked 11th, the top 4 countries being Canada, United Kingdom, Ireland, and Finland, respectively. [6]

This may explain the inability of most EDers to recognize satire (No, this thread isn't a satire thread) or think critically.

We have the best social equality!

Hah!

The top three countries with the greatest income equalities are Slovak Republic, Belarus, and Hungary, respectively. The United States is not even in the top 30. The Gini index (a measure of inequality) of Slovak Republic, the country with the greatest equality, is 19.5; the Gini index of Sierra Leone, the country with the worst equality, is 62.9. The United States has a Gini index of 40.8, where the poorest 20% of its population receive 5.2% of the income and the richest 20% receive 46.4%. [10]

We have the best standard of living!

According to the 2004 UN quality-of-life index, the top 3 countries were Norway, Sweden, and Australia, respectively. The US ranked 8th in quality of life [11]. According to the 2005 Economist quality-of-life index, the USA ranked 13th in quality of life, the top countries being Ireland, Switzerland, and Norway, respectively [14]. The country with the highest life expectancy is Andorra (83.47), and the US is not even in the top 20 [12].

Interestingly, you are more likely to die in the USA compared to many, many countries, among them Canada, Australia, Cuba, North Korea, China, Israel, Iraq, Iran, and Kuwait! [13]

We are the most multicultural country!

The most multicultural country in the world is Canada or Australia.

WE CAN NUKE YOUR COUNTRY AND DESTROY YOU!!!!!!11

Does the power to destroy people make you the best country? Using that logic, the best human in the world is George W. Bush.

Other than that, if you use that argument, you are just reinforcing the violent, arrogant, war-hungry American stereotype.


There are many more obvious reasons why America is not the best country, but the points I brought up are the non-obvious ones... at least for most Americans.

Obviously, I am not saying all Americans are idiots. I am merely saying that America is not the best country.

References
1. Representative Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy)
2. Beliefs of the U.S. Public about Evolution (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm)
3. Comparing Christian beliefs in the U.S. With those of other countries (http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_comp.htm)
4. Mathematics and science literacy average scores of 15-year-olds, by country: 2000 (http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHighlightsFigures.asp?figure=5&quest=3)
5. (Removed)
6. Combined reading literacy average scores and average subscale scores of 15-year-olds, by country: 2000 (http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHighlightsFigures.asp?figure=3&quest=)
7. India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
8. Democracy (varieties) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_(varieties))
9. Freedom of the Press rating by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporters_Without_Borders)
10. Gap Between Rich and Poor: World Income Inequality (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908770.html)
11. UN quality-of-life index, top countries, 2004 (http://www.norway.org/News/200404Norway_undp.htm)
12. Countries with the Highest Life Expectancies in the World (http://www.aneki.com/expectancy.html)
13. CIA The World Factbook: Rank Order - Death rate (2005) (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html)
14. Economist world-wide quality of life index, 2005 (http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3372495&d=2005)

Like I said, what's the point?

what's the point of any sport...

Do you realize how much a nuclear weapon costs? No one save bill gates or a few other rich guys would be able to afford it. and why would they want it anyway? and comparing guns to nuclear weapons to laughable, as you really can't use a nuke in your own self-defense, because you'd kill yourself in the blast. whereas with a gun, you shoot the other person and save a misfire, protect yourself.
But, uh... that's not what we were talking about. And I JUST SAID that it would even out because of the sheer numbers of people with guns. Only a couple nukes, taking out a huge amount of people, or a huge amount of guns, each taking out about one or two. And that's still punishment by the people, which is not our right. We can get off on defense, but the more we do so, the more leeway we are allowed, and eventually it blows up in our face. Heh, kinda like a nuke. :p

*snip*
I said, overall. Sure, we don't have the very best of much, but when you average it all out, no other country does better. Why do you think we're the world power? We've got it good, don't be an ungreatful "American Idiot," either. That's just as bad.

what's the point of any sport...
You can't practice your soccer ball kicking skills to kill anyone with it.

Okay, that was my third post in a row, and I'm wondering whether everyone's left or they're putting together a reply to Skywyze's monstrosity.

Posted by a friend recently
---
Don't you hate it when the ignorant Americans on the forums are blindly convinced that America is the best country?

"We know our country isn't perfect, but it's closest."

"Even though Bush won, we are still the best country... Because we are America."

Sorry, United Statesians, but your arrogance and ignorance only reinforce the "American idiot" stereotype in this forum.

Please try to justify your belief that America is the best country.

We have a democracy!

Actually, you have a representative democracy, but so does Canada, the United Kingdom, and Germany, and other countries. As of 2003, the majority of the world's people live in representative democracies [1].

India is the largest democracy (democratic republic) in the world [7], and Switzerland is the strongest example of a direct democracy [8].

We have the Freedom of Speech!!!

It is true that the United States has the most liberal freedom of speech. However, other countries such as Canada, Germany, and the European Union also have the freedom of speech; generally, the only restrictions are for preventing hate speech.

Outlawing hate speech does not cause the downfall of democracy, as these countries also have a representative democracy, which I mentioned above.

The United States tied at 22nd or 23rd in the worldwide Freedom of the Press index in 2004, while eight countries tied for first place [9].

We are the most intellectually advanced!

No.

In general, America is backwards and conservative compared to other developed countries. [2]


This study compared the United States to the countries of Northern Ireland, Philippines, Ireland, Poland, Italy, New Zealand, Austria, Norway, Great Britain, Netherlands, West Germany, Russia, Slovenia, Hungary, and East Germany.

When asked to answer yes or no to, "The Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word," the third highest group (in terms of percentage) that answered yes was the United States (33.5%), compared to all the other countries listed above. In comparison, the percentage of Great Britain that answered yes was 7.0%. [3]

The United States ranked the highest for the following questions (compared to all the other countries listed above) [3]:

I definitely believe in "life after death" (55.0%)
I definitely believe in "the Devil." (45.4%)
I definitely believe in "Hell." (49.6%)
I definitely believe in "religious miracles." (45.6%)

In a survey that asked, "In your opinion, how true is this? Human beings developed from earlier species of animals," the percentage of people who answered yes was the lowest in the United States (<35.4%). In comparison, the percentage of Great Britain that answered yes was 76.7%. [3]

A study of mathematics and science literacy of 15-year-olds in developed countries was assessed in 2000. The United States ranked 18th in mathematical literacy, the top 8 mathematically-literate countries being Japan, Korea, New Zealand, Finland, Australia, Canada, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom, respectively. The United States ranked 14th in science literacy, the top 7 scientifically-literate countries being Korea, Japan, Finland, United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, respectively. [4]

This is likely due to the poor literacy levels of Americans, as shown in a 2000 comparison of reading literacy of 15-year-olds in developed countries. The United States ranked 15th in the combined literacy score, the top 3 countries being Finland, Canada, and New Zealand, respectively. For "retrieving information", the United States ranked 15th, the top 5 countries being Finland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Korea, respectively. For "interpreting results", the US ranked 15th, the top 2 countries being Finland and Canada, respectively. For "reflecting on texts", the US ranked 11th, the top 4 countries being Canada, United Kingdom, Ireland, and Finland, respectively. [6]

This may explain the inability of most EDers to recognize satire (No, this thread isn't a satire thread) or think critically.

We have the best social equality!

Hah!

The top three countries with the greatest income equalities are Slovak Republic, Belarus, and Hungary, respectively. The United States is not even in the top 30. The Gini index (a measure of inequality) of Slovak Republic, the country with the greatest equality, is 19.5; the Gini index of Sierra Leone, the country with the worst equality, is 62.9. The United States has a Gini index of 40.8, where the poorest 20% of its population receive 5.2% of the income and the richest 20% receive 46.4%. [10]

We have the best standard of living!

According to the 2004 UN quality-of-life index, the top 3 countries were Norway, Sweden, and Australia, respectively. The US ranked 8th in quality of life [11]. According to the 2005 Economist quality-of-life index, the USA ranked 13th in quality of life, the top countries being Ireland, Switzerland, and Norway, respectively [14]. The country with the highest life expectancy is Andorra (83.47), and the US is not even in the top 20 [12].

Interestingly, you are more likely to die in the USA compared to many, many countries, among them Canada, Australia, Cuba, North Korea, China, Israel, Iraq, Iran, and Kuwait! [13]

We are the most multicultural country!

The most multicultural country in the world is Canada or Australia.

WE CAN NUKE YOUR COUNTRY AND DESTROY YOU!!!!!!11

Does the power to destroy people make you the best country? Using that logic, the best human in the world is George W. Bush.

Other than that, if you use that argument, you are just reinforcing the violent, arrogant, war-hungry American stereotype.


There are many more obvious reasons why America is not the best country, but the points I brought up are the non-obvious ones... at least for most Americans.

Obviously, I am not saying all Americans are idiots. I am merely saying that America is not the best country.

References
1. Representative Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy)
2. Beliefs of the U.S. Public about Evolution (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm)
3. Comparing Christian beliefs in the U.S. With those of other countries (http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_comp.htm)
4. Mathematics and science literacy average scores of 15-year-olds, by country: 2000 (http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHighlightsFigures.asp?figure=5&quest=3)
5. (Removed)
6. Combined reading literacy average scores and average subscale scores of 15-year-olds, by country: 2000 (http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/PISAHighlightsFigures.asp?figure=3&quest=)
7. India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
8. Democracy (varieties) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_(varieties))
9. Freedom of the Press rating by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporters_Without_Borders)
10. Gap Between Rich and Poor: World Income Inequality (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908770.html)
11. UN quality-of-life index, top countries, 2004 (http://www.norway.org/News/200404Norway_undp.htm)
12. Countries with the Highest Life Expectancies in the World (http://www.aneki.com/expectancy.html)
13. CIA The World Factbook: Rank Order - Death rate (2005) (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2066rank.html)
14. Economist world-wide quality of life index, 2005 (http://www.economist.com/theworldin/international/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3372495&d=2005)


I just want to show a problem with some your "conclusions" if I will stemming from a conclusion you came to with relative ease.

We are the most multicultural country!
The most multicultural country in the world is Canada or Australia.

Odd how you had gobs and gobs of evidence to support every other claim, but this one. Could it be because it is flagrant horse manure? Until you can prove otherwise I will continue to believe what every ethnographic study has led me to believe; the US is the most ethnically diverse nation. It doesn't make us better. We just are more diverse. *Gasp* "We can't have the US have something on us!"

Now there is something funny about being ethnically and culturally diverse. It has a nasty habit of sending generalzations waaaaay off kilter. How can you accuratley test for anything given the sheer amount of diversity?

While I can't totally disprove what you have written because that would require more work than I prepared to do atm, I will say that not all surveys and standardized tests are correct and unbiased. Even MENSA acknowledged the concept of cultural bias in testing.

Do I think all Europeans are evil? Of couse not.

Do I think USA is the best? Not always.

In all actuality I really don't care if Europe doesn't like America. For as much as the world hates us I am Mexico hasn't taken us over. Those statistics make it sound so easy no? C'mon it would be like taking candy for a baby! Our religious zeal would be the wool over our eyes! Sure I will admit that some European nations have it better in some areas. If the USA truly was better in every regard everyone would be living here. Not everything is wrong with America. Not everything is right either.

Hmm what does that sound like...human nature perhaps?

Odd how you had gobs and gobs of evidence to support every other claim, but this one.

Check out this site (http://www.ausbiotech.org/pdf/IA_Fast_Facts_2.pdf) for a few more statistics. Or just google for it.

That site said and I quote, "With nearly one quarter of its population born overseas, Australia is easily the most multicultural country in the Asian-Pacific."

There are no other references made. If that simple piece of evidence is flawed then that doesn't bode well for the rest of the other supposed evidence.

I'm born in Norway (that's in Northern Europe in case you didn't know), and people there pay the same taxes as you do, yet they get infinite free healthcare, infinite free education (some people never even leave the universities) and can travel abroad without fear because they don't have a global reputation of warmongering, ignorance and religious intolerance. That alone is good enough to convince me that there are countries where life is better. If you're going to say that the US is better than every country that has ever existed, as many Americans do, at least get your facts straight first. That was the purpose of the post above.

That site said and I quote, "With nearly one quarter of its population born overseas, Australia is easily the most multicultural country in the Asian-Pacific."

There are no other references made. If that simple piece of evidence is flawed then that doesn't bode well for the rest of the other supposed evidence.

Like I said, that first post was made by a friend of mine, this most recent one was just one of the dozens of sites saying that Australia/Canada is more multicultural.

What's more interesting to me is which countries treat foreigners with more respect and courtesy. Being a foreign exchange student in the US, I can tell you that it sure ain't the US. The posts above mine prove that pretty well I think.

I'm born in Norway (that's in Northern Europe in case you didn't know), and people there pay the same taxes as you do, yet they get infinite free healthcare, infinite free education (some people never even leave the universities) and can travel abroad without fear because they don't have a global reputation of warmongering, ignorance and religious intolerance. That alone is good enough to convince me that there are countries where life is better. If you're going to say that the US is better than every country that has ever existed, as many Americans do, at least get your facts straight first. That was the purpose of the post above.

Pay the same taxes? Did you know the tax rate is HUGELY different all over every town and city in every county in ever state? Quite a presumption I'd say. Free health care and education you say? Well from what I learned in my meager "pay as you go" education, money doesn't grow on trees. Something HAS to suffer or not receive funding for that quality of life to continue. It's simple economics. If you are implying Norway is a Utopia I am not buying it.

Odd how everyone accuses Americans of being scum yet who are the people stereotyping? Being American does not and I repeat does not dictate my actions. If some jerks treated you with disrespect then that wasn't because they were American. That was because they were assholes. If I got to forgein country and someone treats me ill I am not going to assume they did because they were "x" nationality. Can no one see that this is all a form of vulgar nationism?

Like I said, that first post was made by a friend of mine, this most recent one was just one of the dozens of sites saying that Australia/Canada is more multicultural.

What's more interesting to me is which countries treat foreigners with more respect and courtesy. Being a foreign exchange student in the US, I can tell you that it sure ain't the US. The posts above mine prove that pretty well I think.

I've done my share of FOB-bashing, I'm ashamed to admit. :eek:

But hey, we're Americans, so if you don't like it tough $#1%! The United States of America under god rule!
[/sarcasm]

It's unbelievable how ignorant folks are in the U.S. about stuff like evolution. Half of em don't understand what it is, and appx 1% greater than half put "God and Country" before Liberty and Justice.

While it might not always be the best, currently I prefer living in the US.
1) I speak the language. And that's in spite of growing up in Texas, Oklahoma and South Carolina. If I moved to Sweden or Denmark, I'd have to learn a new language.
2) I have family here. I realize that my family may not be the best reason to stay in a country. As a matter of fact, many would say that might be on top as reasons to leave. But I've grown perversely attached to them. And I am nuts, so why not have a family that makes me look good in comparison?
3) I'm familiar with the customs. Mind you, understanding them is another matter entirely.
4) According to the stats listed in a previous post, I might be considered hopelessly backwards in my academic abilities and just plain stupid in other countries. Apparently here I'm a veritable genius. Cool.

While it might not always be the best, currently I prefer living in the US.
1) I speak the language. And that's in spite of growing up in Texas, Oklahoma and South Carolina. If I moved to Sweden or Denmark, I'd have to learn a new language.
2) I have family here. I realize that my family may not be the best reason to stay in a country. As a matter of fact, many would say that might be on top as reasons to leave. But I've grown perversely attached to them. And I am nuts, so why not have a family that makes me look good in comparison?
3) I'm familiar with the customs. Mind you, understanding them is another matter entirely.
4) According to the stats listed in a previous post, I might be considered hopelessly backwards in my academic abilities and just plain stupid in other countries. Apparently here I'm a veritable genius. Cool.

Hahahahaha wow so true for many people I know, and me of course. :D

It's far from perfect, but compared with every other country on the planet, the US wins.

I'm sure you've been to every other country on the Planet haven't you....

I'm pretty sure that if Americans say 'the US is the best place to live', they don't mean it in an offensive way.
I am Swiss, I grew up in Switzerland and I love living here, and that's exactly what makes it impossible for me to compare other countries to mine in an unbiased way.
So let's just take all these statements as personal statements and not imply that they are to judge over others. Most of what we say is a generalization, or a simplification, because we can't take into account all possible aspects of any topic.
How am I to know whether living in my country is better than living in, say, Nepal? I just don't, and I never will. But I still don't mean to offend any Nepalese citizen when I say the Alps are the most beautiful mountains.
Let's just not overinterpret other people's statements and accept that we'll never agree on such personal matters.

Regarding poverty or wealth in America:

Yes, there is a large gap between the bottom and top rungs of the wealth ladder in the states, but consider the actual level of prosperity of those near the bottom rung - not in comparison to those on the top, but in comparison to what might be considered "the bottom rung" in other parts of the world.

I think diet says it all here. Now, I would normally associate starvation and a general lack of commodities with grinding poverty, but in the United States, even some of those who are considered to be in abject poverty are clinically obese. Don't you think that a country capable of adequately feeding - in fact in many cases overfeeding - its entire population should probably be looked upon as a relative success?

There are countries in the world in which emaciating hunger, not obesity, is the dietary skirge of the populace, and yet I don't hear nearly as much whining about those countries, it's all "oh, America is so terrible, poverty is rife there, blah blah blah". There may well be a large divide between those with comparitively little wealth and those with lots of it, but to be honest when the prosperity of the very bottom is taken in to account, I don't really think it matters.

America has created a society in which even the completely destitute can gorge themselves with food. Other countries should be emulating America, not ranting about how terrible it is.

^ Umm yeah, only most first world nations don't have as much of a problem with poverty OR obesity as the US does... Perhaps we should be emulating them, not the other way around.
then go somewhere eles you fashist there is nothing wrong with the united states but the goverment (gorge bush) :sniper:
Yes, because there's certainly nothing wrong with the people who elected George Bush and gladly hand over even more power to the government... :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure that if Americans say 'the US is the best place to live', they don't mean it in an offensive way.
I am Swiss, I grew up in Switzerland and I love living here, and that's exactly what makes it impossible for me to compare other countries to mine in an unbiased way.
So let's just take all these statements as personal statements and not imply that they are to judge over others. Most of what we say is a generalization, or a simplification, because we can't take into account all possible aspects of any topic.
How am I to know whether living in my country is better than living in, say, Nepal? I just don't, and I never will. But I still don't mean to offend any Nepalese citizen when I say the Alps are the most beautiful mountains.
Let's just not overinterpret other people's statements and accept that we'll never agree on such personal matters.

You, sir, are absolutley correct.

What's wrong with America? Tons, a whole lot more than I'm going to bother to list out. But what's wrong with all the other countries in the world? Just as much, I gaurantee you, and in a lot of places quite a bit more.

Exactly. People always bitch about how bad life is in America, it's not like it's any better in other industrialized nations.

Exactly. People always bitch about how bad life is in America, it's not like it's any better in other industrialized nations.

Indeed...

America haslost its faith in God. God is the one last hope for all peoples.

You're kidding, right?

Why should he be kidding? Given what you have posted about you life circumstances and age, what experience/knowledge do you have about other countries? How much understanding about America can you even have? You havent worked in the USA yet, I am guessing you havent seen much of the country. For all intents and purposes all you have done is go to high school. What could you possibly know at 17 years of age?

America haslost its faith in God. God is the one last hope for all peoples.
Poor guy...
Hey look over there, it's your brain !!! Go and get it !
(hope that was a joke ^^)

Many many caricatural point of views for & against America in this thread.

You just can't compare 2 countries, as you can't compare 2 people : there is no universal reference...

I'd say France is a nice place to be. I dunno for the rest of the planet, in fact i will never know, i just don't have the time ^^

The courts, television, the government. u name a topic and i garuntee u that something is messed up with it. I dont know why people want to move here, i want to get out. I dont want to live where guilty men walk free, or where people read about realtionships about the rich while the poor are given more dirt to swallow. Does anyone else agree? Can u think of something i missed.
Since you have such a deep-seated disgust at your own Country, I'll be more than willing to help you pay to move somewhere else. I don't want your sort of idiot here any longer than you want to be here.

Since you have such a deep-seated disgust at your own Country, I'll be more than willing to help you pay to move somewhere else. I don't want your sort of idiot here any longer than you want to be here.

What's wrong ? Are you mad or something ?
Who are you to say that ?

...If you have money to give, i'd like some ^^

Regarding poverty or wealth in America:

Yes, there is a large gap between the bottom and top rungs of the wealth ladder in the states, but consider the actual level of prosperity of those near the bottom rung - not in comparison to those on the top, but in comparison to what might be considered "the bottom rung" in other parts of the world.

I think diet says it all here. Now, I would normally associate starvation and a general lack of commodities with grinding poverty, but in the United States, even some of those who are considered to be in abject poverty are clinically obese. Don't you think that a country capable of adequately feeding - in fact in many cases overfeeding - its entire population should probably be looked upon as a relative success?

There are countries in the world in which emaciating hunger, not obesity, is the dietary skirge of the populace, and yet I don't hear nearly as much whining about those countries, it's all "oh, America is so terrible, poverty is rife there, blah blah blah". There may well be a large divide between those with comparitively little wealth and those with lots of it, but to be honest when the prosperity of the very bottom is taken in to account, I don't really think it matters.

America has created a society in which even the completely destitute can gorge themselves with food. Other countries should be emulating America, not ranting about how terrible it is.


So basicaly your equaiting welfare people with the homeless and saying because people on welfare can eat, america is great. Ummm sure... Lets try and go with that. Do you know what its like to be homeless in this country? Have you ever had the joyousness that is a welfare christmas? I doubt it just by the way you speak of food. When i was younger i had to live on the streets and let me tell you something, you dont get alot of food when your poor and homeless. Sure when your still getting some kind of income you can get on foodstamps or federal assistance but when you hit out and out bottom and i mean at the point you cant afford even the basics you get nothing, infact in most peoples minds you cease to exsist or become something less than human. How many fat homeless people have you ever met? How many fat welfare people? You'll meet alot more fat welfare people because you can use foodstamps to buy junk like chips and cookies and not healthy food.

Now to get on topic... I love my country i realy do but we got alot of problems no one will address because they are afraid to. Not because it would be unpopular with all the people, but just some of the voting blocks. You cant touch Illegal immagration with out spanish and mexican americans screaming about you being a racist. You cant touch unfair "Affirmative action" policies with out every other minority screaming racism. You cant touch taxes with out the rich screaming and throwing their money at lawyers to get them out of taxes. You cant touch almost anything in this country or make any improvements because everything has a lobbiest or a special interest group behind it throwing around money to the voters on capitol hill and lord forbid you attempt to change them... they scream the loudest of them all.
America is on a downward spiral, education and free will are taking a backseat while we pump up the ideals and wrong ways of them comming about. In short America needs some patriots like the founding fathers were to show us a better way of life but they dont exsist anymore because you lean any which way and your branded instead of listened to.

Kids in South Africa that don't eat are obese too ^^

Poor guy...
Hey look over there, it's your brain !!! Go and get it !
(hope that was a joke ^^)

Many many caricatural point of views for & against America in this thread.

You just can't compare 2 countries, as you can't compare 2 people : there is no universal reference...

I'd say France is a nice place to be. I dunno for the rest of the planet, in fact i will never know, i just don't have the time ^^

I will pray for you. Either I couldn't understand what you said because I don't have a brain or because you don't have a brain. God is what you believe it is. In Islam, God is Allam. In some Buddhist sects, God is Buddha. Have faith in your God and faith in your fellow man and you shall find eternal happiness.

Really? How? Social security is fucked up. You can't die with dignity since politicians will use you for their power struggle. The medical system, no comment, I only say, if a nurse asks for your insurance card before she does anything something is wrong. Millions of guns in the hands of people who're not in law enforcement or military. People who basically fear everything (otherwise they wouldn't need that many guns). Economy that's going downhill faster than Hermann Maier on the Streif in Kitzbühl (heck, atm companies connected to Airbus are trying to get a foot into the door of the USAF, ouch for Boeing). Incredible paranoia. Full scale ignoring the treaty of Kyoto (and yet still going downhill with the economy). Allowing Nazis run around freely... Etc, etc, etc...

I'd rather say the "American way of life" has turned into a road to hell.

And social programs are not having problems in other countries? Meanwhile why does a social program make or unmake a countries greatness?

Medical system has its flaws I suppose. But I will take a nurse asking for my insurance card over being forced to wait months for a basic mri or to see a specialist. I remember I wanted to make an appointment once with a specialist and I was appalled that he was completely booked up for the next 1 1/2 months. I called around a little bit(10 - 20 minutes) and was able to get an appointment within the week. Cost to me either way; exactly the same. Wow, free market really sux I guess

So the possession of guns in civillian hands is inherently wrong? So you would lump Switzerland in along with the USA I guess.

Economy that is going downhill? Are you stupid? do you not pay attention to any economic indicators? We grew at 4% last year. Which is about as high as you can without crazy inflationary pressure. And we did this despite the impact that oil prices are taking. France and Germany barely eak out 1% each. Grow up and get a clue.

Airbus is a good company(heavily subsidised). Boeing will either adapt or die. Thats life. How is that a reflection of America?

Of course we are ignoring Kyoto, we didnt agree to it. How is agreeing to Kyoto a reflection of whether a country is good or not?

Allowing Nazis to run around freely??? What does this mean? People can do and believe as they please here in the USA, as long as they dont impact upon another persons rights. What Nazis are yo talking about anyway. Most of the skinheads I have seen have been in Germany, and I havent been there too many times. Skinheads tend to accidently fall down staircases while in police custody here.

So basicaly your equaiting welfare people with the homeless and saying because people on welfare can eat, america is great. Ummm sure... Lets try and go with that. Do you know what its like to be homeless in this country? Have you ever had the joyousness that is a welfare christmas? I doubt it just by the way you speak of food. When i was younger i had to live on the streets and let me tell you something, you dont get alot of food when your poor and homeless. Sure when your still getting some kind of income you can get on foodstamps or federal assistance but when you hit out and out bottom and i mean at the point you cant afford even the basics you get nothing, infact in most peoples minds you cease to exsist or become something less than human. How many fat homeless people have you ever met? How many fat welfare people? You'll meet alot more fat welfare people because you can use foodstamps to buy junk like chips and cookies and not healthy food.

Now to get on topic... I love my country i realy do but we got alot of problems no one will address because they are afraid to. Not because it would be unpopular with all the people, but just some of the voting blocks. You cant touch Illegal immagration with out spanish and mexican americans screaming about you being a racist. You cant touch unfair "Affirmative action" policies with out every other minority screaming racism. You cant touch taxes with out the rich screaming and throwing their money at lawyers to get them out of taxes. You cant touch almost anything in this country or make any improvements because everything has a lobbiest or a special interest group behind it throwing around money to the voters on capitol hill and lord forbid you attempt to change them... they scream the loudest of them all.
America is on a downward spiral, education and free will are taking a backseat while we pump up the ideals and wrong ways of them comming about. In short America needs some patriots like the founding fathers were to show us a better way of life but they dont exsist anymore because you lean any which way and your branded instead of listened to.

this reminds me of somthing i read in world history book once...oh yes Rome...maybe after we blow half the world up the US can break apart and we can have another dark age...WHERE I SHALL BE THE WAR LORD OF IDAHO...OR THE THE POTATER KING!...just kidding for those of you who dont believe in sarcasim ;)

Kids in South Africa that don't eat are obese too ^^

I really hope this is a joke, not some ignorant fool, that does not understand that if you rarely eat you get a gas build up which causes your stomach to expand.

I'm pretty sure that if Americans say 'the US is the best place to live', they don't mean it in an offensive way.
I am Swiss, I grew up in Switzerland and I love living here, and that's exactly what makes it impossible for me to compare other countries to mine in an unbiased way.
So let's just take all these statements as personal statements and not imply that they are to judge over others. Most of what we say is a generalization, or a simplification, because we can't take into account all possible aspects of any topic.
How am I to know whether living in my country is better than living in, say, Nepal? I just don't, and I never will. But I still don't mean to offend any Nepalese citizen when I say the Alps are the most beautiful mountains.
Let's just not overinterpret other people's statements and accept that we'll never agree on such personal matters.
Thank you, Alinania. This post of yours is one of the very, very few I have read on here which uses a rational approach on this topic. Most of those who attack the US ( even those within the US, who should know better! ) do so based either on a total lack of information or on myths they picked up from mass media or Hollywierd. Those who try to defend against this sort of attack often resort to the same tactics. I deeply appreciate your rationality. It's like a breath of fresh air! :)

Alright, you want to bitch about the united states and hows its evil or whatever. Fine, its a right men have died for since the whole experiment of democracy in American began. I have questions though for every one of you who poo on this country. Number one, have you lived for a large amount of time in any other country? If you so, was it perfect?
Number two, what have you done to make America better according to your standards? Do you vote-choose the leaders who make the decisions? Do you protect its streets at night from criminals? Do you sign away four or more years of your life to protect it from foriegn or domestic threats? How many of you bitching about this country have lifted one finger to help it out, and how many of you sit around working do nothing jobs and bitch about the system?

I really hope this is a joke, not some ignorant fool, that does not understand that if you rarely eat you get a gas build up which causes your stomach to expand.

Distension I think the word is. Not only gas buildup, but lack of proper caloric intake leads to muscle atrophy. The muscles get so weak that your stomach starts to hang down.

I really hope this is a joke, not some ignorant fool, that does not understand that if you rarely eat you get a gas build up which causes your stomach to expand.

Distension I think the word is. Not only gas buildup, but lack of proper caloric intake leads to muscle atrophy. The muscles get so weak that your stomach starts to hang down.

Erm, playing Eve Online and writing my book.
I wanna play Eve Online!

Yes, america is oh so perfect. Other countries are the ones that are messing things in america, generating more rich and many more poor, screwing up the environment, etc...
Hey, I don't see the Russians or the Chinese frolicking in the meadows with bunnies and...ostriches....

Distension I think the word is. Not only gas buildup, but lack of proper caloric intake leads to muscle atrophy. The muscles get so weak that your stomach starts to hang down.

Distended colon, and then there's paralitic ileus (sp)...

In all actuality I really don't care if Europe doesn't like America. For as much as the world hates us I am Mexico hasn't taken us over. Those statistics make it sound so easy no? C'mon it would be like taking candy for a baby! Our religious zeal would be the wool over our eyes! Sure I will admit that some European nations have it better in some areas. If the USA truly was better in every regard everyone would be living here. Not everything is wrong with America. Not everything is right either.

Hmm what does that sound like...human nature perhaps?

This is the part I agree with. I really dont care if people in Europe dont like America. In fact,I kind of like it. I'm really too busy improving the lives of my family in a land of countless opporotunities to care what jealous people think. I have nothing against Europeans, even the blathering shrikes that ride every America bashing bandwagon that rolls along. All the statistics that are posted?- We all know polls and studies can be manipulated to suit almost anyone's purposes. If it were truly so backward and oppressive, I wouldnt live here and my children wouldnt be flourishing here either. The fact of the matter is, its a pretty great place to live. Are there better places to live? I'm sure. There are certainly far worse places to be. I enjoy my life here as does my family. And its not from ignorance because I have lived all over the place and do know better. Sure-there are many things wrong with the country, no rational person would claim its a perfect Utopia. What suits me fine might be a living hell to someone else, and visa versa. There is a good balance and if there is something in my life I cant tolerate I have the ability to change it or get away from it, which isnt true worldwide.
I love this country and I'm proud to be an American. And I dont really mind that there are legions of small minded, ignorant people that waste their breath making blanket generalizations about us. I dont hold it against them.

Amen.

This is the part I agree with. I really dont care if people in Europe dont like America. In fact,I kind of like it. I'm really too busy improving the lives of my family in a land of countless opporotunities to care what jealous people think. I have nothing against Europeans, even the blathering shrikes that ride every America bashing bandwagon that rolls along. All the statistics that are posted?- We all know polls and studies can be manipulated to suit almost anyone's purposes. If it were truly so backward and oppressive, I wouldnt live here and my children wouldnt be flourishing here either. The fact of the matter is, its a pretty great place to live. Are there better places to live? I'm sure. There are certainly far worse places to be. I enjoy my life here as does my family. And its not from ignorance because I have lived all over the place and do know better. Sure-there are many things wrong with the country, no rational person would claim its a perfect Utopia. What suits me fine might be a living hell to someone else, and visa versa. There is a good balance and if there is something in my life I cant tolerate I have the ability to change it or get away from it, which isnt true worldwide.
I love this country and I'm proud to be an American. And I dont really mind that there are legions of small minded, ignorant people that waste their breath making blanket generalizations about us. I dont hold it against them.