NationStates Jolt Archive

Short term meaning "this year compared to last" not "this year compared to 10 years ago".

I say "yes", but only somewhat.

I suppose somewhat.

The rhetoric is less bitter. The relationships are unchanged.

US-EU relations have never been THAT terrible. The image of some huge rift was more created for Political purposes in each country. The fact is, the Trilateralism of the US-EU-Japan is still the most important international allignment (I am distinguishing between government relations and overall public opinion).

Now that the cold war is over, how can Europe and the US possibly repair relations?

during the cold war, Europe and the US were radically differant, but not as radically differant as the Us and the USSR; or Europe(western) and the USSR.

The soviets(well, Russia) isnt that signficant anymore. The only significant embodied philosphies are Socialized(western) Europe and the US.

So now we will clash. On a much lowered scales(threat to the world, level of antagonism, ect ect)..ut we will still clash. Almost most probably not militarily or even standoff, or anything even approaching that, but we mince world and threat about economic policy ect.

Once side will win out mind out, but it will be a clash of cultures/philoshopies not arms and walls.

Personally, if Europe doesnt find a way to fix its economic growth rates..then its really screwed. And it doesnt have the potential that Russia has to bounce because it is a relatively mature economy.

Barring some radical technological shift that is going to free up a significant percentage(1-2%) of GDP, Europe is in a bad way(long term macro wise). By Europe I am obviously talking about the countries like France and Germany, Uk is ok and Italy can compensate simply by shifting more of their black economy into white. I have no idea about spain. The smaller Euro ones..who really cares on way or the other in terms of economy.

The primary conflict falls under the merits of socialism vs. capitalism. Unfortunately, they are not mutually beneficial, and since the US is seen as th capitalist "champion" and the EU its socialist counterpart, I think relations on an international level will be strained. On a personal level, I have great admiration toward Europe, and I'm even going there next year. I only hope the international conflicts won't hurt relations between the actual people of the two.

The primary conflict falls under the merits of socialism vs. capitalism. Unfortunately, they are not mutually beneficial, and since the US is seen as th capitalist "champion" and the EU its socialist counterpart, I think relations on an international level will be strained. On a personal level, I have great admiration toward Europe, and I'm even going there next year. I only hope the international conflicts won't hurt relations between the actual people of the two.

I don't personally know any Americans who harbor real dislike for Europeans, a few radicals here on NS excepted, but I know many Europeans who are very happy to hate Americans for no ascertainable reason. =/ (Well, Britons, at least.)

I don't personally know any Americans who harbor real dislike for Europeans, a few radicals here on NS excepted, but I know many Europeans who are very happy to hate Americans for no ascertainable reason. =/ (Well, Britons, at least.)

I can see why given the election. Still, I think people on both sides need to see the other as people and not as political enemies. After all, life does go beyond politics.

I can see why given the election. Still, I think people on both sides need to see the other as people and not as political enemies. After all, life does go beyond politics.

Yes, its quite rational to hate a people in general because of one man in their government who has never really harmed the people who are choosing to hate his countrymen because he is in power.
Bush is the most overly abused president I have ever seen. He makes the abuse of Clinton look like nothing and Clinton ran the gamut. I swear, if Bush opened a thousand hospitals in Africa he would be hated for choosing green paint instead of pink.

Bush is the most overly abused president I have ever seen

I agree. There's a line between criticism and outright abuse, and I think it's crossed way too much.

I agree. There's a line between criticism and outright abuse, and I think it's crossed way too much.

Yeah, disagreeing, good and healthy, mocking in some comedy routines and jokes, good and fun, wishing death upon and pain to. . .annoying and wrong.

Agreed. I can't even figure out what the big deal is. Sure, they disagree, but people disagree with plenty of presidential policies without wishing death on the guy. I just don't see how he gets called stupid, mainly. He's not stupid, he's just not in agreement with you.

Agreed. I can't even figure out what the big deal is. Sure, they disagree, but people disagree with plenty of presidential policies without wishing death on the guy. I just don't see how he gets called stupid, mainly. He's not stupid, he's just not in agreement with you.

I find it strange that he is constantly called an idiot yet at the same time manages to defeat his oponents again and again and get what he wants. If he's a complete idiot, what does that make the people who lose to him?
The level of hatred that has been level at recent presidents by different political factions is just amazing. This belief that the election of one person for maybe 8 years will lead to the destruction of life as we know it. I remember when Clinton was in my family just hated the guy and my father was completely convinced that Bill was gonna suspend the constitution and take over. I didn't vote for him and didn't care for him but I never thought his election would mean the end of our way of life.
I think people have to much time on their hands.
Oh crap, this thread was supposed to be about US EU relations.

I'd say yes. They are working nicely with Iran. But there are threats to derail relations yet again, such as the subsidy battle between Airbus and Boeing.

I'd say yes. They are working nicely with Iran. But there are threats to derail relations yet again, such as the subsidy battle between Airbus and Boeing.

Airbus: evil and maker of fat ugly planes.
Boeing: good and maker of superior product.

Down with Airbus!! Boeing forever!! 777 baby!!!!

Airbus: evil and maker of fat ugly planes.
Boeing: good and maker of superior product.

Down with Airbus!! Boeing forever!! 777 baby!!!!
I find a strong tendancy to agree with you. I don't care if you are sarcastic or not, but Airbus will never get off the ground (pardon the pun). The A380 will work great in high volume corridors, like JFK to Heathrow, but will be uneconomical on some of the routes proposed. The 787, on the other hand, will connect small cities at long distances from eachother. It will be a success.

I find a strong tendancy to agree with you. I don't care if you are sarcastic or not, but Airbus will never get off the ground (pardon the pun). The A380 will work great in high volume corridors, like JFK to Heathrow, but will be uneconomical on some of the routes proposed. The 787, on the other hand, will connect small cities at long distances from eachother. It will be a success.

Oh, there was not a drop of sarcasm there. I do not like Airbus and wish them only failure. I am a great fan of Boeing and always have been. I always check before I fly with an airline and will only fly on a Boeing. Not for safety reasons, just cause I like Boeing. It always makes travel agents do a double take when I tell them this and make them check the maker of the plane.
Yes, I am strange.

Yes, its quite rational to hate a people in general because of one man in their government who has never really harmed the people who are choosing to hate his countrymen because he is in power.
Bush is the most overly abused president I have ever seen. He makes the abuse of Clinton look like nothing and Clinton ran the gamut. I swear, if Bush opened a thousand hospitals in Africa he would be hated for choosing green paint instead of pink.


yes good point. It all borders on insanity at times.

Oh, there was not a drop of sarcasm there. I do not like Airbus and wish them only failure. I am a great fan of Boeing and always have been. I always check before I fly with an airline and will only fly on a Boeing. Not for safety reasons, just cause I like Boeing. It always makes travel agents do a double take when I tell them this and make them check the maker of the plane.
Yes, I am strange.
I'm not that extreme. I fly on any plane that stays together in midair. But Boeing is superior. Besides, I have a respect for them considering how much they do for defense and space technology.

US-EU relations have never been THAT terrible. The image of some huge rift was more created for Political purposes in each country. The fact is, the Trilateralism of the US-EU-Japan is still the most important international allignment (I am distinguishing between government relations and overall public opinion).
Hence "long term" versus "short term".

In the long term, our relations didn't take that big of a hit. In the short term, public opinion drove them down pretty bad.

Wow.... I've never seen a thread like this!! NO FLAMERS!!!

Anyway... boeing and airbus are not competing for exactly the same thing. Boeing goes for efficiency. Very long range, as many passengers as possible, amazing engines and designs.

Airbus goes for capacity and luxury. Hundreds of people, and/or lots of leg room. Even folding down seats. Or beds.

Different routes call for different needs. They can easily coexist. I favor boeing because they're a US company and airplanes are one of the few things we still manufacture and export.

I agree with your opinion of Bush. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with some/all of his policies, he is not evil. His 8 years in office will not result in the complete and utter destruction of the environment. I can't understand where his more vocal opponents get that idea. He's not "taking over" the world, or even individual countries. Disagree in a RATIONAL way, don't resort to screaming and insane claims.

Once in a while, the moderates shine through the radicals. Thanks to all of you.

God I hope not. It's coming slowly. But it's coming. The cold war induced slumber is wearing off. More people every day are coming out of hybernation and realise that the US is not a friend. It's a good development.

*Bangs head on wall*

so much for no flaming...

Well, at least we got 23 posts before someone ruined it. Usually we'd be lucky to get just 3 of those.

Kerbump.

Oh, there was not a drop of sarcasm there. I do not like Airbus and wish them only failure. I am a great fan of Boeing and always have been. I always check before I fly with an airline and will only fly on a Boeing. Not for safety reasons, just cause I like Boeing. It always makes travel agents do a double take when I tell them this and make them check the maker of the plane.
Yes, I am strange.


It's not weird. Boeing planes tend to have a smoother ride and are generally quiter.

I never take Airbus long haul, though I will put up with one for short hops.

I think the relations have never been worse and won't get back to the level they were before the Afghanistan war, but especially the illegal Iraq attack and occupation by the US and UK. I'm glad too. The US should not be the world hegemon that it wants to be. As seen in the middle east, the US are incapable of doing something without totally ruining the purpose of their mission. Torturing and ignoring law and democracy left and right - this is not what the world needs or wants.

It really frustrates me that Tony Blair has more or less 'bedded Bush' concerning foreign policy. Most people have come to the conclusion it's because they're both practisising Christians...though Blair tries to keep God out of it...religious politicians aren't successful in the UK. ANYWAY, most British people dislike the American government as much as any Frenchman or German doe,perhaps even more so!

Considering Britain is outperforming Germany (which is outperforming France) economically and has by far and away the best military in Europe it is worrying that it chooses to side with its former colony. Very worrying indeed, considering that the two societies are very different. I think so long as Europe goes the Liberal-Secular path and America the theocratic path the relationship between the two will weaken. Europe isn't economically dependent on the USA anymore, the EU as an economic conglomerate generates more GDP than the USA and has a larger population. Economically, Europe has already begin to overtake the USA.

If military investment were proportional then it could probably generate a larger military. (On the other hand, who wants a large military? The gross incompetance of American ground forces has shown us that in an age of technology large militaries are unwieldly and can't really be trained very well. That is why Americans still come to the Brits for their training ;)) Europe doesn't need to repair relations with the US, the US is the party at fault. It is xenophobic, just ask any American what he thinks of a non-Irish/Scottish European and you'll probably end up with a torrent of abuse.

The 'xenophobia' on the European continent is reactionary, and hopefully Blair will get a slap on the wrist for staying so close to Bush who is very unpopular with the British people. In short, yes, relations aren't great and so long as Europe and America continue going their separate ways they won't get any better. Europe is advancing far faster culturally and economically, America is held back by its theocracy...but that's another thing aside. America is still the military superpower, and still has the greater economy as a NATION. So there are strengths and weaknesses either side of the Atlantic, but I prefer this side.

It's better to hate honestly then to love falsely.

Ha, I got you! This posts doesn't makes sence all by all!

I think both could be allied but will always think the other is "strange"

I remenber a thing that happened between Clinton and Chirac

When Clinton went to france both have a meeting.
Clinton ( left side in USA ) was telling Chirac the good side of the US economy and Chirac ( right side in France ) say that ok, ok, is great but... here ( France ) we give more importance to the social subject

It means that the right in Europe ( not extreme right ) is more left than USA left ( not extreme )



USA and EUROPE see the world and live in different way

Why would they want to ally? They don't need to. Europe has more than enough money to invest in its military if it wants to, and I'd say it has the means to defend itself at the moment anyway. Any invasion of Europe would go wrong very quickly...there's no point being allied with America, Europe doesn't need America...I'd say that America needed the EU all the more so. At least when European countries are on side America can flaunt itself with at least a tiny degreee of international credibility. That's what the big monster lacks, along with culture and secularism- credibility.

Airbus and connected companies are apparenty trying to get a foot into the USAF business, tankers etc.

I really don't get the hype over the Airbus anyway. It's ugly and really every type looks the same. It's the McDonald's of aircraft industry... yuck...

The soviets(well, Russia) isnt that signficant anymore. The only significant embodied philosphies are Socialized(western) Europe and the US.
Did you hear that, Russians? You are NOT significant! And also, for the rest of Europe--you're all cowards. Remember, even the U.S. postal service is better armed and organized than you.

When I hear comments like these, all Conservative claims the "relations are improving" is nonsense. The U.N. was recently kicked off the human rights commission, and really, how can we play the world's policeman when even the U.N. thinks we're not fit to serve on such a commission?

China listed our human rights abuses, throughout history, saying we're just as bad or worse than many of the countries we point the finger at. France pretty much hates us as does Italy, and the false American story about forced prostitution in Germany (insulting them for being Socialists) as well as the innocent German who was imprisoned for years, certainly didn't help to improve relations.

Don't forget that the War in Iraq and Tony Blair's government has pretty much ruined things for America concerning relations with the UK as well. I don't know anyone who would care to lift two fingers at America, let alone be nice about.

Oops, what's that I trod on? George Bush's face? Oh well, a little bit of a twist here and there, that's actually improved his appearance! Maybe a little bit of education for him, let's say America's equivilent of year 7 basic English - there we are, he's finally got to the intelligence of an ape.

I'd say....erm.....NO!!

Did you hear that, Russians? You are NOT significant! And also, for the rest of Europe--you're all cowards. Remember, even the U.S. postal service is better armed and organized than you.

When I hear comments like these, all Conservative claims the "relations are improving" is nonsense. The U.N. was recently kicked off the human rights commission, and really, how can we play the world's policeman when even the U.N. thinks we're not fit to serve on such a commission?

China listed our human rights abuses, throughout history, saying we're just as bad or worse than many of the countries we point the finger at. France pretty much hates us as does Italy, and the false American story about forced prostitution in Germany (insulting them for being Socialists) as well as the innocent German who was imprisoned for years, certainly didn't help to improve relations.

You DO know that Russia isn't part of Europe don't you? Or are you one of these thick Americans that believe Wales is in England?

Actually parts of Russia are in Europe...technically Europe is Portugal to the Urals.

Russia is a part of europe.

Actually parts of Russia are in Europe...technically Europe is Portugal to the Urals.

Not really

I don't personally know any Americans who harbor real dislike for Europeans, a few radicals here on NS excepted, but I know many Europeans who are very happy to hate Americans for no ascertainable reason. =/ (Well, Britons, at least.)
Mostly is because of what americans do outside their country. For example, here in Romania, an employee of the American Embassy, driving drunk at night, killed one of the most loved rock singer, Teo Peter, 4 month ago. He was taken out of the country and nobody knows anything about the case any more.

Just out of curiosity... when did Russia seize to be part of Europe? I mean, I see that claim on this board quite often. I'm not saying people aren't entitled to their opinion - but when I was in school (ages ago), I was taught Russia IS part of Europe. Could somebody tell me when this changed (or was I misinformed all along)?

Russia is a part of europe.

Russia is part of asia

But also part of Europe.

Just out of curiosity... when did Russia seize to be part of Europe? I mean, I see that claim on this board quite often. I'm not saying people aren't entitled to their opinion - but when I was in school (ages ago), I was taught Russia IS part of Europe. Could somebody tell me when this changed (or was I misinformed all along)?

Europe is a continent - i just looked it up, Russia is part of it's own continent, that's the same thing as NOT BEING IN EUROPE. The continent is called USSR. Russia is NOT part of Europe.

(Oh yeah, and check a dictionary, seize is most definately the WRONG WORD!!)

Did you hear that, Russians? You are NOT significant! And also, for the rest of Europe--you're all cowards. Remember, even the U.S. postal service is better armed and organized than you.

When I hear comments like these, all Conservative claims the "relations are improving" is nonsense. The U.N. was recently kicked off the human rights commission, and really, how can we play the world's policeman when even the U.N. thinks we're not fit to serve on such a commission?
when was the US ever kicked off the human rights commission? the human rights commission is a joke anyways, look at all the shitty members on it: USA, China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc.

This has got to be a joke.

Europe is a continent - i just looked it up, Russia is part of it's own continent, that's the same thing as NOT BEING IN EUROPE. The continent is called USSR. Russia is NOT part of Europe.
wtf.

Russia is part of asia
Russia, as a country, is mostly in Asia. Mostly. So, we say, "Russia is in Asia."

But that's just its political borders, not its actual geographic borders. Before the U.S.S.R., many of those countries were said to be in "eastern Europe." Some still are.

Take a look at the world map.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WF1.WORLD.JPG

wtf.

Didn't you know that Europe, North America, South America and Asia and Africa, are all seperate continents???? Russia has it's own continent (is on it's own continent) and therefore is NOT part of Europe.

Europe is a continent - i just looked it up, Russia is part of it's own continent, that's the same thing as NOT BEING IN EUROPE. The continent is called USSR. Russia is NOT part of Europe.


USSR? What's that?

Didn't you know that Europe, North America, South America and Asia and Africa, are all seperate continents???? Russia has it's own continent (is on it's own continent) and therefore is NOT part of Europe.
You are quite clearly a mad man.
I think you need to go and see a doctor.

Didn't you know that Europe, North America, South America and Asia and Africa, are all seperate continents???? Russia has it's own continent (is on it's own continent) and therefore is NOT part of Europe.
Wow. Where are you from?? Do they have schools there??

Wow. Where are you from?? Do they have schools there??

Here, have a map of the continents.
http://www.sos-kinderdoerfer.de/images/dummy_map_continents.gif

Here, have a map of the continents.
http://www.sos-kinderdoerfer.de/images/dummy_map_continents.gif
http://www.sos-kinderdoerfer.de/images/dummy_map_continents.gif
I see Russia is split between Asia and Europe.

No sign of a USSR continent.

I stand corrected it is Asia, nothing else.

It is also in Europe!

I stand corrected it is Asia, nothing else.
The vast majority of maps show Europe's borders go further east, to the Urals. Your map is incorrect.

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/eurlarge.htm

http://www.mapsofworld.com/images/world-continents-map.gif

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/eurlarge.htm

That doesn't show anything.

http://2002.uen.org/2002/images/countries_answerkey.gif

Oh? Well, much as I long for the days of the British Empire, any map that recorded Russia as a part of Asia would have to have been published in that era. Culturally and ethnically Russia is so much more similar to Europe, and while more of Russia appears as a part of what people think of as 'Asia' on the map it has political and cultural traditions as well as bits of it that are very much in Europe.

Oh? Well, much as I long for the days of the British Empire, any map that recorded Russia as a part of Asia would have to have been published in that era. Culturally and ethnically Russia is so much more similar to Europe, and while more of Russia appears as a part of what people think of as 'Asia' on the map it has political and cultural traditions as well as bits of it that are very much in Europe.

That map was published in 2001

http://2002.uen.org/2002/images/countries_answerkey.gif
That map of Asia does not include Russia west of the Urals, such as the KOla Peninsula.

Europe is a continent - i just looked it up, Russia is part of it's own continent, that's the same thing as NOT BEING IN EUROPE. The continent is called USSR. Russia is NOT part of Europe.

(Oh yeah, and check a dictionary, seize is most definately the WRONG WORD!!)
Well, you are right. Seized is not the best word. If I need further help in vocabulary selection, you're the man I come to. Your knowledge of geography is another matter entirely though...

From the Russian embassy
http://www.russianembassy.org/RUSSIA/geograf.htm

The Ural mountain range, for one, constitutes a natural boundary separating European and Asian Russia.

That doesn't show anything.

Did you read the stuff directly under the map?

Did you read the stuff directly under the map?

No, what is it again?

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eunewneb.gif


lol @ win $ 100 here

No, what is it again?

Here's the link again:
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/eurlarge.htm

From: http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/contnent.htm


European Russia is not a separate country, but rather the far western end of the Russian Federation. Most modern atlases and geography experts consider this landmass politically and geographically part of the continent of Europe. The Russian Federation's established dividing line between Asia and Europe are the Ural Mountains

Just out of curiosity... when did Russia seize to be part of Europe? I mean, I see that claim on this board quite often. I'm not saying people aren't entitled to their opinion - but when I was in school (ages ago), I was taught Russia IS part of Europe. Could somebody tell me when this changed (or was I misinformed all along)?

Europe and Asia form a landmass that sometimes is referred to as Eurasia. Looking on a map, one can argue that Europe isn't really a continent by itself but more a kind of huge peninsula. Nevertheless there is a commonly agreed on definition of the continent of Europe. It's northerm, western and southern border are basically defined by the shoreline. Its eastern border is defined by the Ural mountains, the Ural river which flows into the Caspian Sea, the caspian sea, the Caucasian Mountains, the black sea and the Bosprus.

Since parts of Russia are situated to the west of the Ural Mountains (including insignificant settlements like Moskau or St. Petersburg) parts of Russia, actually cradle and heartland, are part of Europe. The Asian part of Russia has been conquered/colonized during centuries beginning more or less in the 16th century after the fall of the last important central-asian empires.

Russias history is connected with Europe (heavy involvement of Vikings travelling along the mighty river russian river systems - called Waräger) as well as Asia (central asian empires like mongolia and the successors the tatars).

Russia and the former soviet republics in Europe (Baltics, Ukrainia, Belo-Russia, Modlavia, Georgia) cover more than half of the European landmass.

However, Russia is not part of the European Union, that has been founded after WWII first as an economic alliance and has become a free trade zone and political body during the last decades.

Russia is IMHO the most important partner for the European Union out of variuos reasons. Mid and longterm we as Europeans should be especially interested in good relations with a stable and reliable Russia.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eunewneb.gif[/img]


I love the fact you can win 100.000$ in Magnitogorsk/Ufa area

Edit: oh, you pointed that out already... I'm packing as we speak! :)

Here's the link again:
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/eurlarge.htm

Ok, ok, but I never trust a website that you can 'win' stuff from.

If Gorganite is British, I'm very sorry and excuse his piss ignorance on the grounds that he is a chav (this is our equivalent of a hill billy). Apologies all round.

If Gorganite is British, I'm very sorry and excuse his piss ignorance on the grounds that he is a chav (this is our equivalent of a hill billy). Apologies all round.

But we have banjo playing, cousin shagging, stupid people already that aren't chavs.

Yes, but you know how it is...was trying to draw comparisons so that non British people understood the phenomena of Chav.

The cultural clash between Europe and the US, goes a lot deeper than gung-ho capitalism vs. social democracy. In fact the US economy is still full of social legislation and government subsidizing (both directly and indirectly), while the European economy have seen an increasing amount of liberalizations during the last 20 years (interestingly enough, Europe have seen lower growth rates in the same time period).
If people want to know why Europeans and Americans collide, it would be much easier to look at the different ways we are looking at the present US President. A lot of Americans seams to like Bush junior because of his rural style. They like a president calling people for folks, they like his references to God (as well as good and evil), and they like his very direct cowboy attitudes. Europe (excluding Poland) is different, it is urban, secular, sensitive and in some ways even somewhat aristocratic in its self-image. Europeans often dislike Bush because of these differences, to them he comes out as a primitive farm boy with rather crazy religious ideas.
Also Europeans have experienced two extremely brutal world wars, a fast fall from colonial grace and a divided continent due to the cold war, this gives Europeans (in particular its intellectual elite) a very different outlook on world affairs. The European elite have in many ways tried to turn away from the past, disregarding the old ghosts of nationalism and militarism. In many ways the US should be grateful for this, a return to European nationalism and militarism would properly be the single greatest thread against world peace. However at the same time it also make the American patriotism and its focus on military solutions into something negative in Europeans eyes, the reason is that it reminds us of the self created tragedies of our own past.

Concerning the question, yes they will normalize and thus also improve. However the differences wont disappear anytime soon, so the foolish rhetoric will continue on both sides of the Atlantic.

In many ways the US should be grateful for this, a return to European nationalism and militarism would properly be the single greatest thread against world peace

American foreign policy and America itself is the single biggest threat. In addition to this, the EU has grown at a much faster rate than the USA economically...where the hell did you get the idea it had not?

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eu.htm

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/eunewneb.gif


lol @ win $ 100 here

IF NOTHING ELSE
See that little piece of land north of Poland (next to the "sea" in "Baltic Sea")? That's a piece of Russia called Kaliningrad. And that is most certainly in Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4382145.stm

Me? I believe that Europe stops at the Ural Mountains.

I think both could be allied but will always think the other is "strange"

I remenber a thing that happened between Clinton and Chirac

When Clinton went to france both have a meeting.
Clinton ( left side in USA ) was telling Chirac the good side of the US economy and Chirac ( right side in France ) say that ok, ok, is great but... here ( France ) we give more importance to the social subject

It means that the right in Europe ( not extreme right ) is more left than USA left ( not extreme )

USA and EUROPE see the world and live in different way

This is an excellent observation, I often run into this curious effect when I go back to Slovakia and people ask me how American politics function.

This is an excellent observation, I often run into this curious effect when I go back to Slovakia and people ask me how American politics function.

American politics function now? Since when??

American politics function now? Since when??

(yawn)

(yawn)

No seriously...since when have American politics actually worked?

American foreign policy and America itself is the single biggest threat. In addition to this, the EU has grown at a much faster rate than the USA economically...where the hell did you get the idea it had not?

Actually you are wrong, in terms of GDP the EU economy is only larger than the US due to its higher population and increasing size. Also the economy of the Euro area is still a great deal smaller than the US economy, and the EU is hardly one single country (in fact until the actual integration of the service and financial sectors, it wont even be a truly single economy).
When it comes to GDP growth rates, then the American economy have outperformed the European economy for the last 15 years. Now a lot of this is due to the problems with the German economy and the investments flowing into the US from Asia and the middle east (in effect meaning that the American growth is leading to a country owned by foreigners and is setting China up for a future position as the worlds leading economy), but that doesn’t change the numbers.

Concerning threats, then I like US bashing as much as any European. Hell there is nothing more fun than making jokes about Bush and the loonies (in my subjective very European views) of his administration, but honestly you can not compare them with what I am talking about. The last time Europe choose the road of nationalism and militarism, it meant the creation of the Nazi regime and was followed by the death of more than 50 million people.

Well Bush is as much of a nutter as Hitler, and he's working on that 50 million death toll. Plus, the UK is economically stronger than Germany at the moment and the two combined are a very powerful economic couple...throw France into the mix and you have yourself a powerhouse.

Well Bush is as much of a nutter as Hitler, and he's working on that 50 million death toll. Plus, the UK is economically stronger than Germany at the moment and the two combined are a very powerful economic couple...throw France into the mix and you have yourself a powerhouse.

Except that you don't because France is sensible and wants nothing to do with America, and not really wanting anything to do with Britain at the moment because of America's pointless war.

Europe is a continent - i just looked it up, Russia is part of it's own continent, that's the same thing as NOT BEING IN EUROPE. The continent is called USSR. Russia is NOT part of Europe.

(Oh yeah, and check a dictionary, seize is most definately the WRONG WORD!!)
Laugh of the day. Thank you. USSR continent. *tirsk*

sorry I know it's already cleared. I'm just so amused.

No seriously...since when have American politics actually worked?

1620.

The cultural clash between Europe and the US, goes a lot deeper than gung-ho capitalism vs. social democracy...
Very well said.

1620.

No, I believe I said, "ACTUALLY WORKED"

Well Bush is as much of a nutter as Hitler, and he's working on that 50 million death toll. Plus, the UK is economically stronger than Germany at the moment and the two combined are a very powerful economic couple...throw France into the mix and you have yourself a powerhouse.

If you honestly think that Bush is worse than Hitler, then you truly have to start reading a few history books and doing it right away. Perhaps you should go and see the movie “Der Untergang”, and try to compare the two world views. American neo-conservatism is hardly my favourite (in fact, I have a difficulty finding a favourite among any of the political mass ideologies), but that doesn’t justifies calling them Nazis.

Despite of sluggish growth the German economy is still substantially larger than the British, while the economies of France and to some extend Italy is more or less of the same size as Britain’s. If you start looking at PPP GDP, then you will realise that the economies of China, Japan and India is all larger than that of any of the European nations (in fact, the Chinese economy is about equal to a combined UK, France and German economy). So please return to realties, the US is outgrowing (seriously indebting itself in the process) Europe, and both is loosing out to Asia.

If you honestly think that Bush is worse than Hitler, then you truly have to start reading a few history books and doing it right away. Perhaps you should go and see the movie “Der Untergang”, and try to compare the two world views.

If you have to refer to a movie to back up your argument, then you haven't really got a leg to stand on.

Edit: I do realise that in this arument I'm not the best person to talk to (eg my argument about Russia earlier) but at least back up your argument with something other than a movie. Like fact for instance.

No, I believe I said, "ACTUALLY WORKED"
So what's your definition of "worked?"

UK is ranked fourth in world economies, shortly to become third and China to become fourth and Germany fifth. France is sixth, and Italy? Well, it's somewhere lagging in the teens...behind Brasil. Secondly, I didn't call him a Nazi...I meant to suggest that violence, unwarrwanted violence, is bad full stop. Whether Hitler, Bush or a British Imperialist it's all wrong. I'm an historian thanks, MA, working on my PhD...so fuck off with the suggestions that I'm ignorant of history. Perhaps I just have a different interpretation to you.

So what's your definition of "worked?"

Something along the lines of being an actual democracy. Rather than having two parties that stand for the same thing, and the one with the more money winning. Like in Britain for example, the party with the best poilicy wins, not the one with the more money. By the way, I am not a 'chav' as you put it...I'm a hic.

You don't pay much attention to British politics, do you?

No, you really don't...Blair won through spin, spit and lies. Not that I'm a Tory or a Liberal Democrat...but trust me, the party who spends the most money on buggering up the other will win the election.

You don't pay much attention to British politics, do you?

Are you suggesting that in fact Britain has just two parties that stand for exactly the same thing and the one with the most money wins the elections? Even though we have quite a few parties, that stand for different things, and though yes, money is involved, quite a few of the parties that have won local and general elections have been the parties with either the least money or somewhere in the middle. In my local area Plaid Cymru won the last election, they have about 50% less money than say Labour, who lost.

He's Welsh, now it all makes sense.;)

If you have to refer to a movie to back up your argument, then you haven't really got a leg to stand on.

Edit: I do realise that in this arument I'm not the best person to talk to (eg my argument about Russia earlier) but at least back up your argument with something other than a movie. Like fact for instance.

It’s a good and historically accurate movie :-), excellent in the way it portrays how the Nazis were thinking. Oh and what do you say to somebody who compare Bush with Hitler. Bush have been president for more than 4 years now, if he had been Hitler he would already have burned down Capitol and used it as an excuse to completely throw out the constitution, invaded Canada, sending the leading democrats, religious minorities and pacifists to concentration camps (as in work camps, not death camps), and started putting the Indians (or some other ethnic group) into prison ghettos. In fact Hitler even tried to set up a military dictatorship in a failed coup before he was elected, that have hardly been the case with Bush. So whatever you might think of Bush, it must be clear to everybody but Nazis (who like Hitler) and Communists (who think everybody is Nazis) that he is the lesser evil of the two.
Oh and if one want to compare Bush with anything from that sad part of human history, the only possible comparison (and I am not saying they are equal) would be the big businessmen and conservatives that sold their soul to Hitler due to a fear of communism. But then again, that kind if comparison is dubious and will only keep people from debating the real problems with neo-conservatism.

Was that a better argument?

He's Welsh, now it all makes sense.;)

If this is going to turn into a conversation about sheep shaggers then i don't want to be involved - and the welsh don't seem to consider me welsh I'm sorry to say, I would be proud to be Welsh and extremely depressed to be English. The welsh don't consider me Welsh because I was born in England and spent 13 of my first years in England, Hertfordshire to be exact. English are the people that are thick, they confuse Geese for ducks, sheep for goats and aeroplanes for huge steel birds (some of them really do, they look up in the sky and see aeroplanes and say, oh, is that one of those red kites we always hear a lot about?). My parent's geese have been so insulted by english people calling them ducks that they have begun commiting suicide via the method of flying on to the railway.

It’s a good and historically accurate movie :-), excellent in the way it portrays how the Nazis were thinking. Oh and what do you say to somebody who compare Bush with Hitler. Bush have been president for more than 4 years now, if he had been Hitler he would already have burned down Capitol and used it as an excuse to completely throw out the constitution, invaded Canada, sending the leading democrats, religious minorities and pessimists to concentration camps (as in work camps, not death camps), and started putting the Indians (or some other ethnic group) into prison ghettos. In fact Hitler even tried to set up a military dictatorship in a failed coup before he was elected, that have hardly been the case with Bush. So whatever you might think of Bush, it must be clear to everybody but Nazis (who like Hitler) and Communists (who think everybody is Nazis) that he is the lesser evil of the two.
Oh and if one want to compare Bush with anything from that sad part of human history, the only possible comparison (and I am not saying they are equal) would be the big businessmen and conservatives that sold their soul to Hitler due to a fear of communism. But then again, that kind if comparison is dubious and will only keep people from debating the real problems with neo-conservatism.

Was that a better argument?

Slightly better, yeah. Except for the fact that I don't think everyone's a Nazi, and I support communism. Not neccesarily the reality of communism you understand, but I fully support the theory.

I'm just trying to say that the thing that affects the result of elections the most is not policy, the main thing is whether a party has the papers on their side.

I'm just trying to say that the thing that affects the result of elections the most is not policy, the main thing is whether a party has the papers on their side.

Which, in theory is to do with policy. But, yes, in practise a lot of the time it's money and influence. The thing is with Britain, our parties generally get their money from the people, not because they are rich in the first place as seems to be the method of obtaining the money in the US. How do our parties get their money then (at least to begin with, later on it IS more to do with being rich)? By having popular policies in the beginning.

Well Bush is as much of a nutter as Hitler, and he's working on that 50 million death toll.

You dont really believe this for a moment, right? This statement was more designed to annoy everyone with a functioning brain. Your synapses can be heard misfiring. Even people that dont like President Bush cant agree with this blatant, ignorant and downright idiotic sentence. Maybe if you said Josef Stalin instead of Bush it would be acceptable. maybe even sadaam. To compare Bush to Hitler is hysterical and stupid.
Maybe go back outside to play.

It is only down to policy when it comes to who the newspapers choose to support, they choose the one that will make things better for rich people.

UK is ranked fourth in world economies, shortly to become third and China to become fourth and Germany fifth. France is sixth, and Italy? Well, it's somewhere lagging in the teens...behind Brasil. Secondly, I didn't call him a Nazi...I meant to suggest that violence, unwarrwanted violence, is bad full stop. Whether Hitler, Bush or a British Imperialist it's all wrong. I'm an historian thanks, MA, working on my PhD...so fuck off with the suggestions that I'm ignorant of history. Perhaps I just have a different interpretation to you.

This is the list of the world largest economies in PPP GDP with the figures next to them:

1. US - $10.99 trillion (2003 est.)
2. China - $6.449 trillion (2003 est.)
3. Japan - $3.582 trillion (2003 est.)
4. India - $3.033 trillion (2003 est.)
5. Germany - $2.271 trillion (2003 est.)
6. UK - $1.666 trillion (2003 est.)
7. France - $1.661 trillion (2003 est.)
8. Italy - $1.55 trillion (2003 est.)

The combined EU $11.05 trillion (2004 est.), the combined NAFTA $12.890 trillion (2003 est.).
Most of these figures are from 2003, but the 2004 figures are not substantially different. The continuing trend is that Britain is having a little higher growth rates compared to France, that the German economy is standing still, that the US outgrow Europe, and that India and China outgrow everybody else. As of now the British and French economies are about equal with Italy very close behind, the German economy is substantially larger than both, and all of the European powers are put to shame by the US and the three Asian giants.
Oh and being a history PhD student means little, for all I know your area of expertise could be religion in antiquity, medieval social structures, or some other totally unrelated subject. All I do know is that you have made a rather primitive comparison between Bush and Hitler, and that you obviously doesn’t have you economical figures right.

Update the 2003 figures above to 2004 here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29)

It is only down to policy when it comes to who the newspapers choose to support, they choose the one that will make things better for rich people.

Or the people who buy their paper.

And actually at the moment they're not even doing that. I'm doing a Media course at uni, and one of the modules is on journalism. Papers at the moment are more and more focussing on being nice to the parties that the owner of the paper supports and being not nice to the ones he/she doesn't support. TV is the way to go though, at least, the BBC is, because they are the only ones that give support of all parties, including one's that don't deserve support even from the sh*t you scraped off your shoe that morning, like the BNP.

Thank god this penis-size comparing means little if the people suffer while the economies prosper and the rich grow richer while the poor grow poorer. I'd not consider China's economic boom to be overly useful as long as the people are still under a sort of dictatorship and abused on a daily basis to make this economic boom possible.

The German economy is suffering from large corporations who make huge profits and cut jobs anyway. There's no social responsibility in those corporate giants anymore. Yet they are treated with candy in the form of tax reductions or even tax excemptions, so they make even more profit and cut even more jobs.

We are expected to work for incomes of eastern European countries, who have significantly lower living standards and cost of living is much lower, while our country is a so-called "high-price country" where everything is quite expensive and thus incomes need to be sufficient to enable living from work. This is increasingly under pressure as incomes slowly degrade, people are almost treated like slaves for the economy and the rich meanwhile sit on their fat asses and enjoy the fruits of their non-labour. It's exactly this system, which will inevitably lead to revolution here as more and more people grow fed up with it. We're already at over 5 million unemployed, which is still low compared to the unofficial number of 8 million. An unemployment rate of over 30% in some regions is totally unacceptable and a national unemployment rate of over 15% is a tragedy. With the countless dissatisfied people here, things are slowly approaching the boiling point. Probably another reason why the German economy is being milked for what it's worth, as long as it's still possible. :mad:

Update the 2003 figures above to 2004 here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29)
179 East Timor 0

:eek: :eek: :eek:

No, I believe I said, "ACTUALLY WORKED"

Yes. The answer stands at 1620.

You can troll all you want, however:

The US leads the world in many arenas, and competes in them all.
Amongst these, the US has the largest economy on Earth, with 21% of the GWP (Gross World Product). China, in second nation in the world, has 12%. (The combined EU has 19%).

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Economy_of_Earth

Given that such a thing could not come to pass, American politics obviously work, despite your protestations/questions to the contrary.

Now, unless you wish to stop asking rhetorical questions and actually discuss something, I bid you good day.

Yes. The answer stands at 1620.

You can troll all you want, however:

The US leads the world in many arenas, and competes in them all.
Amongst these, the US has the largest economy on Earth, with 21% of the GWP (Gross World Product). China, in second nation in the world, has 12%. (The combined EU has 19%).

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Economy_of_Earth

Given that such a thing could not come to pass, American politics obviously work, despite your protestations/questions to the contrary.

Now, unless you wish to stop asking rhetorical questions and actually discuss something, I bid you good day.

But you see, all that is economy. What about health care? What about the health of your people? What about the average weight of your citezens? What about school? Education in general? What about the average happiness of the people that live there? What about polution? These are not rhetorical questions. This is possibly a rhetorical question though, but if you want to answer it you can. Instead of bombing everyone why can't you just make your own country better first?

Ein Deutscher']Thank god this penis-size comparing means little if the people suffer while the economies prosper and the rich grow richer while the poor grow poorer. I'd not consider China's economic boom to be overly useful as long as the people are still under a sort of dictatorship and abused on a daily basis to make this economic boom possible.

The German economy is suffering from large corporations who make huge profits and cut jobs anyway. There's no social responsibility in those corporate giants anymore. Yet they are treated with candy in the form of tax reductions or even tax excemptions, so they make even more profit and cut even more jobs.

We are expected to work for incomes of eastern European countries, who have significantly lower living standards and cost of living is much lower, while our country is a so-called "high-price country" where everything is quite expensive and thus incomes need to be sufficient to enable living from work. This is increasingly under pressure as incomes slowly degrade, people are almost treated like slaves for the economy and the rich meanwhile sit on their fat asses and enjoy the fruits of their non-labour. It's exactly this system, which will inevitably lead to revolution here as more and more people grow fed up with it. We're already at over 5 million unemployed, which is still low compared to the unofficial number of 8 million. An unemployment rate of over 30% in some regions is totally unacceptable and a national unemployment rate of over 15% is a tragedy. With the countless dissatisfied people here, things are slowly approaching the boiling point. Probably another reason why the German economy is being milked for what it's worth, as long as it's still possible. :mad:

Sadly that is true, and that is also one of the reasons why I am extremely critical of the US system.
The US economy is outgrowing the European one, but the price is some people having to have two fulltime jobs to afford a totally basic and rather poor lifestyle with very little economic security.
So I am not defending the US system (I reject both Marxism and Liberalism, and I am a proud European), the economy is supposed to be a tool to support the population and not the other way around.

But it's coming. The cold war induced slumber is wearing off. More people every day are coming out of hybernation and realise that the US is not a friend. It's a good development.

I have to agree there.

I have to agree there.

Dito

But you see, all that is economy. What about health care? What about the health of your people? What about the average weight of your citezens? What about school? Education in general? What about the average happiness of the people that live there? What about polution? These are not rhetorical questions. This is possibly a rhetorical question though, but if you want to answer it you can. Instead of bombing everyone why can't you just make your own country better first?

You are a sophist, eh?

What if Isabella & Ferdinand fixed up Spain before sending Columbus on that expedition? :rolleyes:

Besides economically, the US is also first militarily, culturally (sorry folks, the US culture tends to dominate these days. Note that as a statement, that doesn't reduce anyone else's culture), and was the first modern Republic.

The US has all of those things, and is in the top 10 in just about all of them.
* The US healthcare system is one of the fastest and most advanced on Earth.
* People are as healthy as they want to be. Americans per capita are not any more or less healthy than other Western nations.
* As for the Americans are overweight issue, yes, about a third of them are. But the Europeans are getting that way, too.
* America has a 97% literacy rate. Our schools are fine, thanks.
* Education in general? America has more of the best graduate schools on Earth.
* How about the average happiness in other nations? I see a lot of people that come HERE, I see few people leaving. That speaks for itself.
Also, the number of millionairs is up, and the poverty rate is down.

* How about pollution? It's down a lot from 1970...
http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/COW/archive/2002/Mar2402polute.htm

Whom is the US bombing, please?

Nota Bene: You've yet to posit why American politics doesn't work.

Considering Britain is outperforming Germany (which is outperforming France) economically and has by far and away the best military in Europe it is worrying that it chooses to side with its former colony. Very worrying indeed, considering that the two societies are very different. I think so long as Europe goes the Liberal-Secular path and America the theocratic path the relationship between the two will weaken. Europe isn't economically dependent on the USA anymore, the EU as an economic conglomerate generates more GDP than the USA and has a larger population. Economically, Europe has already begin to overtake the USA.

Care to back that up? All evidence I have seen is to the contrary (see here (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242) and here (http://www.nbr.co.nz/home/column_article.asp?id=11588&cid=24&cname=US%20Business) ).

If military investment were proportional then it could probably generate a larger military. (On the other hand, who wants a large military? The gross incompetance of American ground forces has shown us that in an age of technology large militaries are unwieldly and can't really be trained very well.

Now this is just silly. Consider Fallujah, a battle which military strategists will study for decades since it is perhaps the first time an attacker has had such a victory in urban combat (see here (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04326/414709.stm)).

Europe doesn't need to repair relations with the US, the US is the party at fault. It is xenophobic, just ask any American what he thinks of a non-Irish/Scottish European and you'll probably end up with a torrent of abuse.

As an American, I can safely say I, and most of my countrymen who I know, couldn't care less about Europeans. We harbor no ill will towards you guys. My ancestors largely came from Europe. We just don't think about you that often. You aren't that important in our lives.

The 'xenophobia' on the European continent is reactionary, and hopefully Blair will get a slap on the wrist for staying so close to Bush who is very unpopular with the British people. In short, yes, relations aren't great and so long as Europe and America continue going their separate ways they won't get any better. Europe is advancing far faster culturally and economically, America is held back by its theocracy...but that's another thing aside. America is still the military superpower, and still has the greater economy as a NATION. So there are strengths and weaknesses either side of the Atlantic, but I prefer this side.

I disagree you with you that Europe has any power over the U.S. economically. Instead, signs point that Europe will continue to fall behind as the strains of a massive socialist nanny-state drive business to lands of greater opportunity.

You also overestimate the cultural impact Europe has upon the United States. European thought and culture has carried over into the United States, but beginning over 100 years ago, US culture began evolving far differently from European culture. We just don't value the same things anymore and we view the world with a different perspective. For a better understanding, go google for "Walter Mead" and read some of his explanations of US perspective, specifically the Jacksonian camp.

Ein Deutscher']Thank god this penis-size comparing means little if the people suffer while the economies prosper and the rich grow richer while the poor grow poorer. I'd not consider China's economic boom to be overly useful as long as the people are still under a sort of dictatorship and abused on a daily basis to make this economic boom possible.

The German economy is suffering from large corporations who make huge profits and cut jobs anyway. There's no social responsibility in those corporate giants anymore. Yet they are treated with candy in the form of tax reductions or even tax excemptions, so they make even more profit and cut even more jobs.

We are expected to work for incomes of eastern European countries, who have significantly lower living standards and cost of living is much lower, while our country is a so-called "high-price country" where everything is quite expensive and thus incomes need to be sufficient to enable living from work. This is increasingly under pressure as incomes slowly degrade, people are almost treated like slaves for the economy and the rich meanwhile sit on their fat asses and enjoy the fruits of their non-labour. It's exactly this system, which will inevitably lead to revolution here as more and more people grow fed up with it. We're already at over 5 million unemployed, which is still low compared to the unofficial number of 8 million. An unemployment rate of over 30% in some regions is totally unacceptable and a national unemployment rate of over 15% is a tragedy. With the countless dissatisfied people here, things are slowly approaching the boiling point. Probably another reason why the German economy is being milked for what it's worth, as long as it's still possible. :mad:

You're all part of the EU, right?
You're all then technically in the same country.
You believe in social responsibility, and at least some degree of socialism.

So why is there a problem? I thought you all had much tighter control of your corporations than we have in America. Just tax the crap out of them, regulate the hell out of them, and "problem solved"!

You are a sophist, eh?

What if Isabella & Ferdinand fixed up Spain before sending Columbus on that expedition? :rolleyes:

Besides economically, the US is also first militarily, culturally (sorry folks, the US culture tends to dominate these days. Note that as a statement, that doesn't reduce anyone else's culture), and was the first modern Republic.

The US has all of those things, and is in the top 10 in just about all of them.
* The US healthcare system is one of the fastest and most advanced on Earth.
* People are as healthy as they want to be. Americans per capita are not any more or less healthy than other Western nations.
* As for the Americans are overweight issue, yes, about a third of them are. But the Europeans are getting that way, too.
* America has a 97% literacy rate. Our schools are fine, thanks.
* Education in general? America has more of the best graduate schools on Earth.
* How about the average happiness in other nations? I see a lot of people that come HERE, I see few people leaving. That speaks for itself.
Also, the number of millionairs is up, and the poverty rate is down.

* How about pollution? It's down a lot from 1970...
http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/COW/archive/2002/Mar2402polute.htm

Whom is the US bombing, please?

Nota Bene: You've yet to posit why American politics doesn't work.

You mean Note Bone I believe. The US HAS bombed Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, France, Germany, Japan etc etc etc. the list is endless.

You mean Note Bone I believe. The US HAS bombed Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, France, Germany, Japan etc etc etc. the list is endless.

Nice, not actually speaking to any of the other points.

Yes, we did bomb Iraq and Afghanistan recently. And both are on their way to becoming free republics. Your point?

The US has never bombed France.
The US only bombed Germany and Japan after they declared war on the US.

The list is not endless. The list is very, very finite and small.

Where do you live, pray tell?

Nice, not actually speaking to any of the other points.

Yes, we did bomb Iraq and Afghanistan recently. And both are on their way to becoming free republics. Your point?

The US has never bombed France.
The US only bombed Germany and Japan after they declared war on the US.

The list is not endless. The list is very, very finite and small.

Where do you live, pray tell?

If you can tell me where I live, then I'll give in and say you won this argument, if not, then, I win. I live in Wales, which is in...?

If you can tell me where I live, then I'll give in and say you won this argument, if not, then, I win. I live in Wales, which is in...?

Wales is a part of the United Kingdom, west of England.

That's pretty flippant, BTW.

Wales is a part of the United Kingdom, west of England.

That's pretty flippant, BTW.

Are you saying it's west of England? or are you saying that it's in the west of England? I'm not being flippant. I'm merely trying to see which kind of American you are.

The US has never bombed France.

Technically, we did bomb France during WW II, while pushing the German Army out of France. Caen, notably. But, within the limits of the technology of the time, we tried to limit the bombing to military targets.

Are you saying it's west of England? or are you saying that it's in the west of England? I'm not being flippant. I'm merely trying to see which kind of American you are.

As I recall from school, England and Wales were merged in the Act of Union sometime in the middle ages. So it depends on how you want to split the apple: either one considers them merged (it's in the western part of England), or it is not (it's west of England), kind of like how New York is west of New England.

The Slovak ex-pat kind. :p

Technically, we did bomb France during WW II, while pushing the German Army out of France. Caen, notably. But, within the limits of the technology of the time, we tried to limit the bombing to military targets.

The US has never bombed France. The occupying Germans, sure. ;)

As I recall from school, England and Wales were merged in the Act of Union sometime in the middle ages. So it depends on how you want to split the apple: either one considers them merged (it's in the western part of England), or it is not (it's west of England), kind of like how New York is west of New England.

The Slovak ex-pat kind. :p

They have never merged into one country. They have always been seperate countries, however Wales was oppressed for many years and was run by the English Government, the same as Scotland and Ireland. Wales is NOT part of Enlgand, it IS part of the UK, GB and Europe. It is now partially run by its own government after too many years of oppression!

The US has never bombed France. The occupying Germans, sure. ;)

Whilst they were IN France. Therefore you HAVE bombed France.

Whilst they were IN France. Therefore you HAVE bombed France.

Ah. So has Wales, by your logic. In fact, due to WW2, Wales will have bombed EVERYWHERE the US did! :p

Ah. So has Wales, by your logic. In fact, due to WW2, Wales will have bombed EVERYWHERE the US did! :p

I never said otherwise. Did I ever say otherwise? When did I say otherwise??

They have never merged into one country. They have always been seperate countries, however Wales was oppressed for many years and was run by the English Government, the same as Scotland and Ireland. Wales is NOT part of Enlgand, it IS part of the UK, GB and Europe. It is now partially run by its own government after too many years of oppression!

So we agree. Good.

BTW, asking that question is about the same as me asking you to name the 14th American Colony: the only one to not become a state.

So we agree. Good.

BTW, asking that question is about the same as me asking you to name the 14th American Colony: the only one to not become a state.

No it's not. You only have to look at a map for my question.

Whilst they were IN France. Therefore you HAVE bombed France.

so youre saying that we shouldnt have bombed france, therefore the Nazis reamain in power and keep control of Europe? Then there is only the eastern front, with only the russians fighting. the war drags on for years, maybee the germans win. east europe is now non-existant due to years of stalemate and france is still controled by the nazis but thats OK because the US and Britain diddnt bomb them. :rolleyes:

No it's not. You only have to look at a map for my question.

Erm... yes, it is. You're asking me, not some search engine. I've answered your question to the best of my ability, and it's a question you're coloring with your own nationalist feelings.

That said, goodbye. You've yet to actually retort to anything I've said in any fashion, so I'll not reply further.

Unless you figure out my previous question, where I'll give you a small accolade.

so youre saying that we shouldnt have bombed france, therefore the Nazis reamain in power and keep control of Europe? Then there is only the eastern front, with only the russians fighting. the war drags on for years, maybee the germans win. east europe is now non-existant due to years of stalemate and france is still controled by the nazis but thats OK because the US and Britain diddnt bomb them. :rolleyes:

I never said that either. God! Don't you people read? I believe that what I said was that the US had bombed France, never that they shouldn't have.

Ein Deutscher']Thank god this penis-size comparing means little if the people suffer while the economies prosper and the rich grow richer while the poor grow poorer. I'd not consider China's economic boom to be overly useful as long as the people are still under a sort of dictatorship and abused on a daily basis to make this economic boom possible.
Glad to see someone else who realizes that China is the world's largest dictatorship. I salute you.

Whilst they were IN France. Therefore you HAVE bombed France.


And France is still upset by that "coitus interuptus"- they were busy accepting Germany's love when the U.S. rudely interrupted.

Glad to see that this thread has gotten some participation.

Very Unhappy to see that it has degraded mainly into a "why Europe is infinitely better than the US or vice versa" thread.


However much our strained relations get sensationalized, I feel that this is a short term issue rather than a long term issue.

Look at how the US and France are working in perfect agreement on getting Syria out of Lebanon. Our leaders are taking steps to repair relations.

And France is still upset by that "coitus interuptus"- they were busy accepting Germany's love when the U.S. rudely interrupted.
As a representative of the US, I hereby appologise for interfering with France and Nazi Germany's 'interaction'. In the future, we will try to be more considerate. :P

Glad to see someone else who realizes that China is the world's largest dictatorship. I salute you.
The US is a dictatorship of corporations instead. A "Capitalizt" society. It's not far behind China in the "bad government systems" category, so don't think you're better off just because you're from the US.

Ein Deutscher']The US is a dictatorship of corporations instead. A "Capitalizt" society. It's not far behind China in the "bad government systems" category, so don't think you're better off just because you're from the US.


Thats your opinion. There are many of us that are flourishing and enjoying a good standard of living. I am better off.

Ein Deutscher']The US is a dictatorship of corporations instead. A "Capitalizt" society. It's not far behind China in the "bad government systems" category, so don't think you're better off just because you're from the US.
I saluted you... and you slander the US in response?!? thanks...
China's population is tons more than the US, hence their title as the 'largest dictatorship'. Whether or not you consider the US to be a dictatorship has no relevence to that statement. I would have thought you would be a little nicer, considering that I had just wholeheartedly agreed with you.

Personally, I think that only reform of campaign finance and the media prevents the US system of government from being an amazingly effective one.