NationStates Jolt Archive

ok who is sick of the people who call us as Christian crazy or insane cause we have a faith is ressurection when they dont think other religions are. post your ops

I'm confident enough in my faith to not have any concern about what someone else thinks about my faith.

As a Christian, you need to concentrate on your own faith.

I dislike it just as much as you do. I am trying to raise awareness on this board for tolerance.

i know i need to be more tolerent of people bashing me but what about schools you cant read your bible you cant were a crucifix or youll get in trouble THATS NOT FAIR do you think its persicution in schools?

ok who is sick of the people who call us as Christian crazy or insane cause we have a faith is ressurection when they dont think other religions are. post your ops

Not to worry, I don't discriminate. I think belief in zombies is silly in voodoo, and other religions, too. :p

I dislike it just as much as you do. I am trying to raise awareness on this board for tolerance.

Tolerance works in every direction. I've found that Keruvalia doesn't get a whole lot of tolerance for being a Muslim.

i know i need to be more tolerent of people bashing me but what about schools you cant read your bible you cant were a crucifix or youll get in trouble THATS NOT FAIR do you think its persicution in schools?

First of all...use punctuation if you hope to get your point across. Second, I feel that religion needs to be tolerated and allowed in school, but not taught, as public schools are funded by the State.

As an atheist, I'm all for religion in schools. Let them thump their Bibles, Korans, whatever, and make their futile attempts at garnering favor with the almighty.


Just leave me out, and don't bother me.

first sorry and second you right cause america was created on that faith (Christianity)

No. No it wasn't.

The writers of both the Constitution and the Declaration were Deist. The first 3 presidents were Deists. Benjamin Franklin was a Deist.

i know i need to be more tolerent of people bashing me but what about schools you cant read your bible you cant were a crucifix or youll get in trouble THATS NOT FAIR do you think its persicution in schools?
I know of no school in the USA where a student would be prohibited from reading his bible quietly or wearing a crucifix.

first sorry and second you right cause america was created on that faith (Christianity)

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

No. No it wasn't.

The writers of both the Constitution and the Declaration were Deist. The first 3 presidents were Deists. Benjamin Franklin was a Deist.
i think it was george washington that said "A country is blind without the Bible"

*looks at the thread* oh boohooo... :rolleyes: Cry me a river, build a bridge, jump off the bridge and drown yourself, thank you...

I don't mind Christianity or any other form of religion. I do mind however, people who try and force their beliefs on me. Yes you are entitled to your own opinion and your choice in religion but you are not entitled to tell people they are going to hell just because the happen differ in religous beliefs, sexual orientation, culture, etc...

Just my 2 cents.

i know i need to be more tolerent of people bashing me but what about schools you cant read your bible you cant were a crucifix or youll get in trouble THATS NOT FAIR do you think its persicution in schools?
No. That's simply the school's attempt to pacify everyone by whatever means they think appropriate.

Your faith should be manifest in who you are and who you are becoming, not in religious icons or reading the Bible when you should be studying. :)

*looks at the thread* oh boohooo... :rolleyes: Cry me a river, build a bridge, jump off the bridge and drown yourself, thank you...

(groan) You know it's post like this that result in warnings...

i think it was george washington that said "A country is blind without the Bible"

Nope. Can't find that anywhere.

No. No it wasn't.

The writers of both the Constitution and the Declaration were Deist. The first 3 presidents were Deists. Benjamin Franklin was a Deist.
I'm not intervening on either side, I just feel like throwing a bit of stuff in. Namely that Washington was an episcopalian, and that Adams was a Unitarian. Jefferson was decidedly deist though. As was Franklin.

Madison was also episcopalian, if I remember correctly...and he played a big role in the writing of the Constitution.

I know of no school in the USA where a student would be prohibited from reading his bible quietly or wearing a crucifix.

The enforcement of the separation of church and state varies by jurisdiction.

Why, for example, do some public schools in the US (but not all) set up prayer rooms for Muslims, but forbid setting aside rooms like this for anyone else?

first sorry and second you right cause america was created on that faith (Christianity)
Just another genocidal spree brought to you by Jesus. Jesus: the world's tastyest wafer!

I know of no school in the USA where a student would be prohibited from reading his bible quietly or wearing a crucifix.
Now I'm intervening.

Very true. In fact, honors level British literature classes and the like are allowed to use the King James Bible as a text sampler. Gives a look into the writing style of the time.

And as far as I know, I saw plenty of crucifix wearers and praying folks when I attended high school. If they were denied the right to do that, then they were wronged, at least according to current law.

Nope. Can't find that anywhere.
ok let me revise what i said. The constitution clearly states freedom of religion correct? So who wrote that one of the first presidents so yes freedom of religion.

I'm not intervening on either side, I just feel like throwing a bit of stuff in. Namely that Washington was an episcopalian, and that Adams was a Unitarian. Jefferson was decidedly deist though. As was Franklin.

Madison was also episcopalian, if I remember correctly...and he played a big role in the writing of the Constitution.


Well, I could be wrong. So could you. Most history is inherently biased through the observer, so I, being atheist, could be projecting my views on them. So could you. I dunno.

The point stands, though.

ok let me revise what i said. The constitution clearly states freedom of religion correct? So who wrote that one of the first presidents so yes freedom of religion.
Say what?

The enforcement of the separation of church and state varies by jurisdiction.

Why, for example, do some public schools in the US (but not all) set up prayer rooms for Muslims, but forbid setting aside rooms like this for anyone else?
In those cases, preventing a student from reading his bible and giving preferencial treatment to one religion over another, it is in my opinion a clear violation of that separation. Having said that, I still think religion is silly and divicive, and I hope we as a species outgrow it soon.

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"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -Nietzsche

The enforcement of the separation of church and state varies by jurisdiction.

Why, for example, do some public schools in the US (but not all) set up prayer rooms for Muslims, but forbid setting aside rooms like this for anyone else?

Because the Muslim faith is a bit stricter on prayer. It has to be done at specific times every day, or you aren't a good Muslim.

Because the Muslim faith is a bit stricter on prayer. It has to be done at specific times every day, or you aren't a good Muslim.
There should still be equal treatment for other religions. If muslims get the privelage of a dedicated prayer room, so should everyone else.

Well, I could be wrong. So could you. Most history is inherently biased through the observer, so I, being atheist, could be projecting my views on them. So could you. I dunno.

The point stands, though.
I'm just citing the book "The Presidents" which is edited by Michael Beschloss. Very good book, and Beschloss is a very reliable author.

The enforcement of the separation of church and state varies by jurisdiction.

Why, for example, do some public schools in the US (but not all) set up prayer rooms for Muslims, but forbid setting aside rooms like this for anyone else?
i assume its because moslems are required by their religion to pray at a time when school is in session but christians are not.

if you are going to require kids to go to school its kinda wrong to make them "sin" for it.

No. That's simply the school's attempt to pacify everyone by whatever means they think appropriate.

Your faith should be manifest in who you are and who you are becoming, not in religious icons or reading the Bible when you should be studying. :)im home schooled and i have Bible as one of my subjects and second couldn't they read during in between time as in when they get there work done early?

i dont care what religion a person is but i do care when they "harrass" those of us that dont agree w/ how they feel. anyhow good luck

There should still be equal treatment for other religions. If muslims get the privelage of a dedicated prayer room, so should everyone else.i agree

im home schooled

You don't say!

i assume its because moslems are required by their religion to pray at a time when school is in session but christians are not.

if you are going to require kids to go to school its kinda wrong to make them "sin" for it.
Excellent point, and one I hadn't considered! :)

no one should get their own special prayer rooms. public schools should be outlawed. maybe

im home schooled and i have Bible as one of my subjects and second couldn't they read during in between time as in when they get there work done early?
Adding to the already budensome load of overworked teachers who would be required to check and make sure everyone wasn't using the Bible as an excuse to avoid study? And you know some would! :(

i agree with saige, im an atheist, i dont really care who worships what, just stop saying im going to hell or some garbage because i dont think the same way you do.

and isnt it also required to kill everyone who isnt a muslim in order to be a good muslim? well thats what i got out of it anyway

and isnt it also required to kill everyone who isnt a muslim in order to be a good muslim? well thats what i got out of it anyway
No, only the polytheists who won't convert. Christians and Jews may live as second class citizens called dhimmis under sharia law. Of course only the extremists like Bin Laden and his supporters hold these views, most muslims aren't trying to provoke a war with everyone else.

ok who is sick of the people who call us as Christian crazy or insane cause we have a faith is ressurection when they dont think other religions are. post your ops

Okay, as a Catholic I would like to state right off the bat that I am Christian. (I have to say that because many of those who start things like this do not believe it.) I am, however, a liberal Catholic that has spent several years in the south, and as such I have a rather unique perspective on you sorts.
People think you're crazy because many of you are.
That is not meant to be offensive. I'd like to cite not Jack T. Chick as an example - and not only Chick himself, but anyone who distributes the filth he prints. I've been handed pamphlets that lumped Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and Satanists into the same category, or pamphlets that encourage their readers to go about stoning homosexuals.
Schools and organizations object to people bringing Bibles/wearing crosses, etc, because it hardly ever stops there. Sooner or later, the Bible is being waved in someone else's face, or used to justify some kind of hatred or intolerance.
Just from my own personal experience, I've been told by bible thumpers that I eat babies (never, to my knowledge), worship the devil (didn't think so) and that I'm going to hell because Catholics have corrupted the true religion (not even going to dignify that piece of historical inaccuracy with a comment). That's how it always seems to go. And I'm another Christian - they're worse to those who aren't.
Maybe you personally aren't certifiable, but many are. You don't appreciate people telling you that you're religion is wrong - no one else does either, be they Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever. Only when the loony Christians change their ways and grow more tolerant of others will others grow more tolerant of them.
After all, if Christians weren't the majority, you'd be the people on here complaining about the other religions being semi-state-sanctioned.

ok who is sick of the people who call us as Christian crazy or insane cause we have a faith is ressurection when they dont think other religions are. post your ops

Oh dont get me wrong, the crazy superstitions that jews and muslims (and hindus too I would imagine) believe are no less absurd or simply incorrect than the stuff christians believe.

I, for one, happen to live in a country where the primary threat of religious fundementalism and opression is from christians.

Its not that the bible is any more ludicrous than the koran or the torah, its just that there arent mobs of people swarming around trying to proclaim the torah or koran as national law and the basis of education here in the US.

In the middle east the fundementalists use the koran and torah. If i lived there i wouldnt like them either.

Yah, you're kinda right.

To go to heaven, your life must have been at least 51% good deeds, otherwise you're screwed. However, the only other way to get to the Muslim version of 'heaven' is to commit suicite by killing 'the infidels' (eg: strapping a bomb to your chest and walking into a church). The only problem is that everyone who isn't Muslim is instantly an Infidel.

I, myself, am proud to be a Christian Infidel, and I will fight to the death to keep that title.

The solution! BAN RELIGION!!!! hehe just kidding. I do however feel that anyone should be allowed to practice their religion in anyway that their religion says they should. So long as, they aren't harrassing or forcing their beleifs onto other people that may not agree with them. As far as using religious texts as an escape from studying, let them, who is it going to hurt but them later in life, when they don't understand something or fail to get any sort of job due to the fact that they haven't got a high school diploma.

Yah, you're kinda right.

To go to heaven, your life must have been at least 51% good deeds, otherwise you're screwed. However, the only other way to get to the Muslim version of 'heaven' is to commit suicite by killing 'the infidels' (eg: strapping a bomb to your chest and walking into a church). The only problem is that everyone who isn't Muslim is instantly an Infidel.

I, myself, am proud to be a Christian Infidel, and I will fight to the death to keep that title.
Once again, that's the interpretation according to some muslims. Most don't beleive in war to spread Islam. A sizable minority do though. Those guys need to be wiped out.

Stormfold, I don't know who would say that you're going to hell because you're Catholic, but maybe it's because they're stereotyping you. Assuming that, since you're Catholic, you aren't saved by Jesus. Their fears are somewhat justified, as I've seen quite a few Catholics who don't even know ABOUT Jesus, but I still think it's wrong to judge without knowing you. Sooooooo.... I ask you: are you saved, Stormfold?

______________
Happy Crucifixion! Three days 'till the resurrection!

ok let me revise what i said. The constitution clearly states freedom of religion correct? So who wrote that one of the first presidents so yes freedom of religion.

There's a big difference between "A state is blind without the Bible" and giving someone freedom of religion.
Freedom of religion is the right to practice whatever religion you so choose - and it really just says that the state will not interfere in same, not that it has to support you or choose one religion over others. Freedom of religion was enacted to prevent the kind of discrimination and religious strife that had been raging in Europe and England for the last several centuries, as well as prohibit a state-controlled or state-mandated religion - and that is increasingly what is occurring in the US right now - control by the Christian right.

Oh dont get me wrong, the crazy superstitions that jews and muslims (and hindus too I would imagine) believe are no less absurd or simply incorrect than the stuff christians believe.

I, for one, happen to live in a country where the primary threat of religious fundementalism and opression is from christians.

Its not that the bible is any more ludicrous than the koran or the torah, its just that there arent mobs of people swarming around trying to proclaim the torah or koran as national law and the basis of education here in the US.

In the middle east the fundementalists use the koran and torah. If i lived there i wouldnt like them either.

Wow dude. Crazy. It seems to me that Christians are using their (our?) doctrine because it is what the United States were founded upon, no reason to fall of the path.

And, excuse my rudeness here, but anyone who claimes that the Founding Fathers were 'deists', are spouting as much bullcrap as you say the Christians are.

Now, back to my normal self. As I see it, science is just as much a religion as Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. It's just become such a normal piece of our lives, because of the pervasive intrusion of athiest fighters, that we assume that it isn't. I, myelf, would need much more faith than I have now to believe that we, the only speicies on the whole planet capable of thinking beyond our own instincts, sprouted out of primordial ooze reminescint of the stuff that McDonalds dips their fries in.

As I see it, science is just as much a religion as Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. It's just become such a normal piece of our lives, because of the pervasive intrusion of athiest fighters, that we assume that it isn't.

Whoa, that means I don't have to go to science classes anymore becuase the government can't force religion on me. Woot!

The first amendment, among other, unrelated things, states that no establishment of relgion shall be put in place by the government, and the government shall not tresspass on a person's right to worship relgion.

Back in that day, the term 'religion' was in reference to Christianity: often, evangelists would insist that people 'need some religion.' And the first part insisted, originally, that there would be no church that the government was to make a tax to support.

It's been twisted around, and I sure wish I had a time machine to tell the Writers of the Constitution to edit it to what they really meant.

I know it's been proven that at least some of the Founding Fathers were. I'm not claiming they ALL were.

Science is not a religion, because it based on observable fact. Call me back when someone in this century has genuine proof that they've seen "God."

Well, fundamentalist Christians rule the country. Sure, some people are intolerant, and they shouldn't be. But the vast majority have a "live and let live" attitude. If you don't force your religion down their throat, they don't care.

I get the distinct feeling that most of the Christians who complain the loudest don't just want to be tolerated, they want everyone to agree with or defer to them. Well, most people don't care if you go to church three times a day. I certainly don't. So long as you don't, say, force other people's children to pray in the classroom, I couldn't care less.

The attorney general holding mandatory prayer sessions at work is completely inappropriate. That is VERY different than accepting his right to be a Christian. There is a difference between a right to practice your religion and a right to rule the world.

i know i need to be more tolerent of people bashing me but what about schools you cant read your bible you cant were a crucifix or youll get in trouble THATS NOT FAIR do you think its persicution in schools?Allowing a moment of silence to do whatever you want is hardly "persecution." Forcing children to pray if they have their reasons not to is closer to persecution.

Prayer has no place being a government-endorsed entity within the public school system. But notice that I did NOT say that prayer has no place in schools. As long as there are math tests, there will always be prayer in schools.

Whoa, that means I don't have to go to science classes anymore becuase the government can't force religion on me. Woot!

You betcha, but try getting that argument past your atheist, science-worshipping professor.

Christians insist that Christianity is not a relgion, but a relationship, 'twixt you and your savior, a unique trait of any relgion. And thus is the truth, as religions are put in place by man, while Christianity is God's. On the same note, scientists insist that science is not a religion, but the truth. And, since they have more influcence, what is the most politically incorrect and most offensive piece of doctrine is now standard.

By the way, I have NEVER heard of someone getting in trouble for wearing a crucifix in school. I have NEVER heard of someone getting in trouble for reading a bible at school during their own time (e.g. lunch). Can you give me an example of that? If true, that school should be ashamed of itself, but I would have to see the data.

Stormfold, I don't know who would say that you're going to hell because you're Catholic, but maybe it's because they're stereotyping you. Assuming that, since you're Catholic, you aren't saved by Jesus. Their fears are somewhat justified, as I've seen quite a few Catholics who don't even know ABOUT Jesus, but I still think it's wrong to judge without knowing you. Sooooooo.... I ask you: are you saved, Stormfold?

______________
Happy Crucifixion! Three days 'till the resurrection!

:headbang:
This is exactly the kind of nonsense I am meaning when I say that I get grief from Christian lunatics.
Read your history. Agree with the Catholics or not, Peter, the first pope - was the APOSTLE PETER. As in the one with the keys to Heaven and earth? Picked by Jesus in person? 'Upon this rock I will build my Church'? That one? Peter.
All those Protestant religions - founded by men who had never met Jesus. Who were reading the Bible as handed down from the Apostles, by the Catholic Church.
Any Catholic who doesn't know about Jesus is NOT Catholic - and I am very, very sceptical of any claim that they exist.
The Catholic Mass - the church service, required weekly - to not attend is, for Catholics, a mortal sin (that means instant damnation unless you repent and never do it again) - consists of three readings from the same Bible you read, which you got from us, and a very important part called the Nincene Creed.
The Nicene Creed, formulated by the Council of Nicea in 381 AD - hundreds of years before Martin Luther ever thought of creating his own church from the Catholic rite, is recited at every Catholic Mass, immediately before Communion. It reads as follows:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen

Every good Catholic says that EVERY WEEK. Catholics who don't know about Jesus are either not Catholic or an outright myth.
How saved does that sound to you, hmm?

Science cannot be deemed a religion. It is by definition based on verifiable facts. Religions, by definition are based on your faith in things that seem impossible.

Oh, and my science professor is an ardent Catholic, thank you very much.

Praying in school doesn't get you in trouble with the school itself, but it is entirely our fault that, if you pray and someone sees you, you're openly ridiculed by your classmates. It's our fault because we insist that Christianity is a fairy tale, it's fake, it's not real, and impressionable students, believe that, rather than the Truth, and, thus, attack those who believe in Christianity like those who believe in Santa Clause.

Check it out even on this forum if you like.


Oh yes, and WHO THE FREAKING HELL proved that the CHRISTIAN founding fathers were Deists?

Just for clarification, the first amendment is as follows.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Which says to me that we can freely exercise our religious beliefs. As for the Islamic prayer rooms in schools, they are being allowed to pray at the times necessary for their religions. Reading the Bible in schools is allowed because it is a part of most Christian beliefs. Wearing a crucifix is allowed because it is a religious symbol meaningful to many Christians. The line is drawn when a public school (in other words, given federal funding) attempts to shade history, english, any subject, with their own religious beliefs, or when rules attempt to influence the theology of any of the students or teachers. So proselytizing is not allowed in schools.

ok who is sick of the people who call us as Christian crazy or insane cause we have a faith is ressurection when they dont think other religions are. post your ops


The only problem I have ever had with any christians are the ones that try to tell me that christianty is the only true religion and all other religions are false.
Or that I am evil because I am not a christian. Or that I will burn in hell If I do not join their church.
Christians that do not do those things, I get along with them just fine.

You betcha, but try getting that argument past your atheist, science-worshipping professor.

Christians insist that Christianity is not a relgion, but a relationship, 'twixt you and your savior, a unique trait of any relgion. And thus is the truth, as religions are put in place by man, while Christianity is God's. On the same note, scientists insist that science is not a religion, but the truth. And, since they have more influcence, what is the most politically incorrect and most offensive piece of doctrine is now standard.
Science isn't a religion. It's a method of learning about the natural world. It's just a way of testing things, making obsevations, and applying logic to those observations so that you can figgure out how things work. Nothing religious about it.

Oh, just about every non-biased historian recently.

Jefferson and Franklin were almost certainly Deists, while Madison, Washington, and Adams are up for debate.

Hey all,
Politics and all aside, I wanted to speak up quickly about something. Someone earlier was posting about how they didn't want religion forced on them, and I wanted to talk about that for a second as a Christian.

Man, I'm sorry you feel that people are trying to force their religion on you. I realize that some Christians may try to do that, or it may seem to come across like that, but I want to try to explain why we're all about "sharing the Gospel" (and I'm not talking about telling you to clean up your act!)

The Gospel is pretty simple: we've all sinned, thus we're all not perfect. Perfection is required by God to attain salvation. All these other religions are about how you have to DO stuff to get into Heaven, but Christian belief is that nothing you can do can get you there. I don't deserve Heaven; you don't deserve Heaven; no one deserves Heaven. We tried to steal God's glory, and so we condemned ourselves.

So what does God do to take out his revenge? He becomes one of us (at this the angels probably puked!), and died in our place, taking on all the punishment that every human being deserves. If God went around with a little pricing gun and stuck you with it, the price would read "Jesus". That's how much he loves and values you. So he's paid the price and he offers us the promise of his resurrection, because to know him is eternal life. All ANYONE has to do is ask for it. The Bible says that "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13). Note that there are no exceptions. And the cool thing is, once you receive salvation, you can't lose it. You didn't do anything to get it, so it makes sense that nothing you can do would cause you to lose it. Christ paid for ALL sins (past, present, and future), and once you call upon him to forgive you, you become a SON or DAUGHTER of God. That's really friggen' cool to me, especially the first time I ever heard it later in life.

Even cooler is that when we become Christians, we begin a RELATIONSHIP with God, not some religion. He's our constant comfort and companion, leader and captain, hero, and lover. We receive the Holy Spirit (God) inside us, and he lives through us. So it's not even up to us to live the Christian life. We simply surrender to God.

The reason we try to tell people that simple truth is because we have experienced it and know it to be true, and we would love to offer it to you, not so that we feel better about ourselves or superior, but because we would love for you to meet Jesus and because he deserves your worship. Your invited; all of you are invited.

If you've got any questions, just ask or email me.


Side note:
About science not being a religion, in a way it is. Think for a second. What is the basic premise behind all science. It's something like, everything must be tested to be proven true or disproved or whatever. We have to be able to observe something. Science can't observe creationism, so obviously creationism is a load of bull. But think about this. Is the phrase, "All things must be testable" in itself testable? It's not. You have to take science's foundational premise on faith.
Don't get me wrong, science has provided a lot of good things, and it works in a lot of areas, but science can't explain everything.

Yes, dadgummit, I know that most Catholics are Christians. But I have seen plenty that turn away because they are not incited by the Word, by God.

Not saying, you, specifically, are, but that doesn't mean that others aren't. Seriously, I'm not saying that you go to hell. Catholicism is Christianity, just a bit different in the smaller, irrelevent things. Just... it's only... oh never mind. You're Christian, fine. You're Catholic. FINE. I DONT CARE WHAT DENOMINATION YOU ARE AS LONG AS YOU ARE SAVED!

Nice claim, but that is a highly transparent attempt to convert the various non-Christians in this thread.

Sorry, no dice.

Talking to that Western guy.

:headbang:
The Catholic Mass - the church service, required weekly - to not attend is, for Catholics, a mortal sin (that means instant damnation unless you repent and never do it again) - consists of three readings from the same Bible you read, which you got from us, and a very important part called the Nincene Creed.

I was raised Catholic and occasionally still go to Mass with my parents, but I've noticed that there are major discrepancies between what I read in the Bible I bring to read during Mass, and what is actually read. The Catholic Mass cuts out important verses that put the passage into context. I challenge you to take a Bible to church with you on Sunday and see what they leave out.

Dude, I'm VERY aware that it's an attempt to convert the non-Christians. That's the whole point. After experiencing God and coming to know him through Jesus Christ, I'm excited about being able to tell others about what he's done for me. If you want to accept it, that's awesome. If not, that's your choice. That's the whole point of free will.

where'd that little guy banging his head on a wall come from? ::is puzzled::

Searching for intelligent life on this thread:
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Error: No thought process found. No grasp of English grammer or spelling found. Nothing besides blind and angry dogma found.

:) :) :) :) :) :)
ROTFLMAO (because "grammer" is not a word. It should be "grammar". I love irony)

As I see it, science is just as much a religion as Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. It's just become such a normal piece of our lives, because of the pervasive intrusion of athiest fighters, that we assume that it isn't. I, myself, would need much more faith than I have now to believe that we, the only speicies on the whole planet capable of thinking beyond our own instincts, sprouted out of primordial ooze reminescint of the stuff that McDonalds dips their fries in.
Science is a systematic way of percieving reality, not a "faith" or even a "belief." It's the only system we have discovered so far for doing so on a consistent, repeatable basis. Faith, on the other hand, is highly personal and completely subjective. When there is an apparent dicotomy between science and belief, the repeatability of science provides sufficient proof to justify a restructuring of belief.

The unexamined faith is actually no faith at all.

Dude, I'm VERY aware that it's an attempt to convert the non-Christians. That's the whole point. After experiencing God and coming to know him through Jesus Christ, I'm excited about being able to tell others about what he's done for me. If you want to accept it, that's awesome. If not, that's your choice. That's the whole point of free will.

As long as you don't try it with children I'm fine. I'm against raising children in your personal religion for several reasons. This biases them against other religions and instills the false dichotomy of us vs. them. We all live on this planet, and so must not see other religions as our enemies . . . ideally. If someone is trying to kill you, I'd say he's your enemy. But children must come to know God on their own terms, and not their parents'/guardians'. It is always possible that they will come to your religion later on, or they might choose another. Is one Christian religion really better than another? I've heard many people state this.

It is always possible that they will come to your religion later on, or they might choose another. Is one Christian religion really better than another? I've heard many people state this.

I agree to a certain extent. I think it's important for people to teach their children about religion, but to give them the freedom to leave that religion if they want to. I'll always be grateful to my parents for not making a big deal out of the fact that I didn't want to be a Catholic anymore.

Yes, dadgummit, I know that most Catholics are Christians. But I have seen plenty that turn away because they are not incited by the Word, by God.

Not saying, you, specifically, are, but that doesn't mean that others aren't. Seriously, I'm not saying that you go to hell. Catholicism is Christianity, just a bit different in the smaller, irrelevent things. Just... it's only... oh never mind. You're Christian, fine. You're Catholic. FINE. I DONT CARE WHAT DENOMINATION YOU ARE AS LONG AS YOU ARE SAVED!

:rolleyes:
Fine sentiments, but they're not shared by the majority to whom I really want to get this point across - Catholicism is the FIRST CHRISTIAN RELIGION. In the eyes of conservative Catholics, it is the ONLY truly Christian religion. We are, and always have been, moved by the Word - if not, all the Protestant sects today would not have it.
It was not Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, Mormons, or whatever else that wrote the Bible. Those were Catholics, for the Protestant divisions had not yet come about.
It was not any of those above that faced the Roman persecutions, that were fed to the lions or used as Nero's garden torches. It was a Catholic monk that converted Constantine and ended those persecutions. It was Catholic monks that traveled the world to bring what began as a middle eastern religion to the world at large.
You lot have the Bible through us, so lay off. And while you're at it, leave the other religions alone too. We, the Catholics, learned the error of conversion through force and discrimination - we did it for hundreds of years, but we grew up. We got over it - Jesus was tolerant, isn't it about time all of you people were? :) All you accomplish is people fighting you not because of any difference in opinion - see this thread - but because they don't like people making this kind of assumptions. What's the number one complaint anyone has with Christians in general and Protestants in particular?
It's hardly ever what they say - not what Jesus taught - but the manner in which they force it upon others.

As long as you don't try it with children I'm fine. I'm against raising children in your personal religion for several reasons. This biases them against other religions and instills the false dichotomy of us vs. them. We all live on this planet, and so must not see other religions as our enemies . . . ideally. If someone is trying to kill you, I'd say he's your enemy. But children must come to know God on their own terms, and not their parents'/guardians'. It is always possible that they will come to your religion later on, or they might choose another. Is one Christian religion really better than another? I've heard many people state this.
If God is true, and almost all Christians believe that God is, then He/She doesn't need us to accomplish Her/His Will. Christians are called to be witnesses through their lives and works, not to be aggressive proselytizers.

: Catholicism is the FIRST CHRISTIAN RELIGION. In the eyes of conservative Catholics, it is the ONLY truly Christian religion. We are, and always have been, moved by the Word - if not, all the Protestant sects today would not have it.

It's funny you should say that, because I'm currently enrolled in a New Testament class at my college. There were tens, perhaps hundreds, of unique Christian sects after Jesus' death - NOT JUST CATHOLICS. Catholicism was merely the one that became dominant when the Council of Nicea decided what was going to be canon, and what would be heretical.

If God is true, and almost all Christians believe that God is, then He/She doesn't need us to accomplish Her/His Will. Christians are called to be witnesses through their lives and works, not to be aggressive proselytizers.


And how many end up being aggressive proselytizers? For what purpose do they do these things? :confused:

I have the same outlook for nearly all religions, but gevoygenasheven religious tolerence is important, but not us forget let seperation of church and state.

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.

Believe me, I know this first hand. I wasn't raised a Christian, and I didn't hear the Gospel until later in life. But, I am going to raise my kids Christian, but they are going to have to make the decision to become one on their own. Simply being raised Christian and going to church doesn't make you one.

And I don't see other religions as my enemy, I just see them as not being the truth, and that's why I want to share my faith and my testimony. All these other religions are based on what you have to do; Christianity is about what Jesus has already done. They can't all be right, so therefore at least one must be wrong. If people accept Christianity, again, that's friggen' awesome, but they have the choice and I'm not about to make them. I may cry for them and pray for them, but I won't attack them and I won't stop being their friend.

Regarding different versions of Christianity, most of them at a core level are the same, it's just the fluff that differentiates. The basic Christian doctrine is that Christ lived, died, and rose again, that his blood covers are sins, and that only through faith can we receive the gift of salvation. Whether or not you believe in Calvinism or Armenianism is all just extraneous fluff that shouldn't divide the denominations, but unfortunately it does. As long as those core teachings are agreed upon, I won't make a big deal about it. I'm focused on introducing people to my savior and passing on the invitation.

It's funny you should say that, because I'm currently enrolled in a New Testament class at my college. There were tens, perhaps hundreds, of unique Christian sects after Jesus' death - NOT JUST CATHOLICS. Catholicism was merely the one that became dominant when the Council of Nicea decided what was going to be canon, and what would be heretical.


Let me reiterate.
Peter = Apostle Peter = first pope = same man from 'upon this rock I will build my Church'
Therefore, the Church Jesus himself anticipated and entrusted to Peter, is the Catholic one. There were many churches, of many cities (the individual buildings and congregations, who'd heard one apostle or the other) - there was one Church.

Believe me, I know this first hand. I wasn't raised a Christian, and I didn't hear the Gospel until later in life. But, I am going to raise my kids Christian, but they are going to have to make the decision to become one on their own. Simply being raised Christian and going to church doesn't make you one.

And I don't see other religions as my enemy, I just see them as not being the truth, and that's why I want to share my faith and my testimony. All these other religions are based on what you have to do; Christianity is about what Jesus has already done. They can't all be right, so therefore at least one must be wrong. If people accept Christianity, again, that's friggen' awesome, but they have the choice and I'm not about to make them. I may cry for them and pray for them, but I won't attack them and I won't stop being their friend.

Regarding different versions of Christianity, most of them at a core level are the same, it's just the fluff that differentiates. The basic Christian doctrine is that Christ lived, died, and rose again, that his blood covers are sins, and that only through faith can we receive the gift of salvation. Whether or not you believe in Calvinism or Armenianism is all just extraneous fluff that shouldn't divide the denominations, but unfortunately it does. As long as those core teachings are agreed upon, I won't make a big deal about it. I'm focused on introducing people to my savior and passing on the invitation.


But raising your children in a certain faith biases their view on future religious possiblities. What if Islam is the correct faith and you were wrong? In that case you have damned your children for your personal beliefs.

hey western, nice try.

i think the problem with that particular speech is that i've heard it one hundred thousand times before. at least.

any pagan nationstates?

and if he raises his kids as islam and christianity is correct it has the same result

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.
Well, who made that maker and who made that maker and so on and so on.

Stormfold, you're forgetting that originally there was the Orthodox church, and that the Catholics broke off from it at a council some 400-600 years (I don't have the dates) after Christ's death. I'm not saying that Catholicism is a bad thing or anything, but you just need to know your facts. They claim apostolic succession as well.

Again though, that's all just fluff. Look to Christ and his resurrection, cause he's the coolest! :)

Ker, to quickly answer your question. God created time. God just was, and since he created time and is outside of its effects, there was no "before". That makes him God.

hey western, nice try.

i think the problem with that particular speech is that i've heard it one hundred thousand times before. at least.

any pagan nationstates?
I wouldn't throw pagan around, but yes there are a great number of them.

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.
Is this going to turn into an evolution thread?

Anyway, the second law of thermodynamics doesn't prevent a local decrease in entropy as long as the total ammount of entropy in the system increases. The sun's energy is used by living things to turn random nutrients into highly organized life forms. The many particles and all the energy being ejected constantly from the sun increases the total entropy in the univers. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't contradict evolution. Only dishonest creationists who think lying in the service of their faith is justified teach that bullshit. I hate liars.

Let me reiterate.
Peter = Apostle Peter = first pope = same man from 'upon this rock I will build my Church'
Therefore, the Church Jesus himself anticipated and entrusted to Peter, is the Catholic one. There were many churches, of many cities (the individual buildings and congregations, who'd heard one apostle or the other) - there was one Church.

No, let me reiterate: where in the Bible does it say that Peter was a pope? He was merely the leader of <i>one Christian SECT that became dominant.</i> For that matter, here's some interesting trivia that'll strike a nerve: how many brothers and sisters did Jesus have? Because that's something the Bible DOES have verses about and something the Catholic Church still seems to be in denial about.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think any type of Christianity is greater than another - I think most of them are pretty wrapped up in politics of some sort. I think you need to question why you believe some of the things that you do. A lot of what the Catholic Church teaches is an oral tradition that has nothing to do with what's in the Bible.

and if he raises his kids as islam and christianity is correct it has the same result
I say let your kids decide what they wish to believe or not believe, it is their life after all. My parents allow me to do so and they accept that, but I think I swayed from the topic.

And how many end up being aggressive proselytizers? For what purpose do they do these things? :confused:
Actually, a suprisingly small number. Why do some do that? Because they think it will help them get into heaven, I suppose, and perhaps because "converting" others helps them avoid their own doubts.

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.


You really need some new arguments, man. Both of those are old as hell, and wrong as hell. (This does not mean I believe Hell exists, cause I don't.)

Watches run well if they are made well, correct? The Earth obviously isn't running well from the view of a Christian. There's wars all over the place, Muslims and Hindus and Jews and )%(#@& atheists are everywhere, we're screwing the enviroment over, and Jesus is nowhere to be found.

If God is so all powerful, why isn't the Earth in better shape?

A bad watch means a blind watchmaker.


And you've messed up the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It only applies to a CLOSED SYSTEM. A living organism is not closed. A planet is not closed.

Well, who made that maker and who made that maker and so on and so on.the author and finisher

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.

Irreducible complexity anyone? A watch is not a living system. You are. You are a collection of smaller cells living in harmonious (and sometimes disharmonious) symbiology. Those cells working together make organs, and those organs make you. If one cell dies, another grows in it's place. Your cells can slowly mutate over time, while the watch you bought at Wal-Mart lasted only a few months. You bought a new watch, and grew some new cells. You took in energy in various forms, and then excreted the wastes of all of your cells. Sounds reducibly complex to me. We evolved slowly over millions of years, from amoeba to fish to the first lizard. Don't claim that because you can't conceive of a creator there must be one.

Believe me, I know this first hand. I wasn't raised a Christian, and I didn't hear the Gospel until later in life. But, I am going to raise my kids Christian, but they are going to have to make the decision to become one on their own. Simply being raised Christian and going to church doesn't make you one.

And I don't see other religions as my enemy, I just see them as not being the truth, and that's why I want to share my faith and my testimony. All these other religions are based on what you have to do; Christianity is about what Jesus has already done. They can't all be right, so therefore at least one must be wrong. If people accept Christianity, again, that's friggen' awesome, but they have the choice and I'm not about to make them. I may cry for them and pray for them, but I won't attack them and I won't stop being their friend.

Regarding different versions of Christianity, most of them at a core level are the same, it's just the fluff that differentiates. The basic Christian doctrine is that Christ lived, died, and rose again, that his blood covers are sins, and that only through faith can we receive the gift of salvation. Whether or not you believe in Calvinism or Armenianism is all just extraneous fluff that shouldn't divide the denominations, but unfortunately it does. As long as those core teachings are agreed upon, I won't make a big deal about it. I'm focused on introducing people to my savior and passing on the invitation.
You are not far from true wisdom, grasshopper! :)

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker.
False analogy...
You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.
Nope. The Earth is not a closed system, and can go down in entropy. And I'm fairly sure that having a well-organized object such as an animal or plant will generate a lot of entropy inside and outside of that system.

Second law of thermo = increase in entropy. You say that an open system can change that, but note that anytime this happens, there must be a complex MECHANISM already in place to effect this change. What mechanism are you proposing that will build a living creature? Underwater volcanoes provide energy, and can stir things up, but there's no mechanism.


Second time, since it's going to be lost in the shuffle: Ker, to quickly answer your question. God created time. God just was, and since he created time and is outside of its effects, there was no "before". That makes him God.

You really need some new arguments, man. Both of those are old as hell, and wrong as hell. (This does not mean I believe Hell exists, cause I don't.)

Watches run well if they are made well, correct? The Earth obviously isn't running well from the view of a Christian. There's wars all over the place, Muslims and Hindus and Jews and )%(#@& atheists are everywhere, we're screwing the enviroment over, and Jesus is nowhere to be found.

If God is so all powerful, why isn't the Earth in better shape?

A bad watch means a blind watchmaker.


And you've messed up the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It only applies to a CLOSED SYSTEM. A living organism is not closed. A planet is not closed.
ok first why isnt the earth in better shape. Because man messed it up during the time he sinned and second were is Jesus my suggestion in read the book of revelation in the N.T. last book of the Bible for the awnser

i assume its because moslems are required by their religion to pray at a time when school is in session but christians are not.

if you are going to require kids to go to school its kinda wrong to make them "sin" for it.

Which is of course also why kids do not have to go to school on Sunday and schoolhours are based around a daily routine that gives time for Christian prayer before dinner.

Western society as a whole is biased towards the Christian faith. Which is perfectly logical considering history, but way too easily forgotten by many.

the author and finisher
Your theory is flawed. You are proposing that everything needs a maker, well even the creator needs a maker. And when and if you say the creator has always been here, then that means the universe could have always been here. Thats how this discussion is most likely going to go.

and if he raises his kids as islam and christianity is correct it has the same result

That's exactly my point. Who knows which is correct? Everybody seems to have exclusive knowledge that makes their faith the correct one. I personally think Judaism has it right, although I'm not jewish.

Irreducible complexity anyone? A watch is not a living system. You are. You are a collection of smaller cells living in harmonious (and sometimes disharmonious) symbiology. Those cells working together make organs, and those organs make you. If one cell dies, another grows in it's place. Your cells can slowly mutate over time, while the watch you bought at Wal-Mart lasted only a few months. You bought a new watch, and grew some new cells. You took in energy in various forms, and then excreted the wastes of all of your cells. Sounds reducibly complex to me. We evolved slowly over millions of years, from amoeba to fish to the first lizard. Don't claim that because you can't conceive of a creator there must be one.if not creation how did i come about? a random event that doesnt state why we have evolved more over time or a loving creator?

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.
Um ... not quite. Life is, as far as we know right now, the only counter-entropic force in the universe. The second law of thermodynamics posits that things move from more to less complex. Life moves from less complex to more complex.

"Study, to show thyself approved of God." :)

Actually, a suprisingly small number. Why do some do that? Because they think it will help them get into heaven, I suppose, and perhaps because "converting" others helps them avoid their own doubts.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

ok first why isnt the earth in better shape. Because man messed it up during the time he sinned and second were is Jesus my suggestion in read the book of revelation in the N.T. last book of the Bible for the awnser
Man was shaped by the ever changing earth, and as we evolved so did our intelligence. Soon we invented all this technology and have managed to control and shape nature to our will. "Sin" had nothing to do with it.

Irreducible complexity anyone? A watch is not a living system. You are. You are a collection of smaller cells living in harmonious (and sometimes disharmonious) symbiology. Those cells working together make organs, and those organs make you. If one cell dies, another grows in it's place. Your cells can slowly mutate over time, while the watch you bought at Wal-Mart lasted only a few months. You bought a new watch, and grew some new cells. You took in energy in various forms, and then excreted the wastes of all of your cells. Sounds reducibly complex to me. We evolved slowly over millions of years, from amoeba to fish to the first lizard. Don't claim that because you can't conceive of a creator there must be one.
Irreducible complexity has never been demonstrated. It's an old idea. People once thought a wing or an eye was irreducibly complex, until examples in nature of partial eyes and wings being of survival value were shown. Now in desparation pseudoscientists like Behe have pushed the threshold of irreducible complexity to mollecular biology. The problem is that mollecular biology is a very new field and there are too many unanswered questions to simply assume that a mechanism is irreducibly complex. If you do make that assumption, learning stops. It's a worthless and counterproductive claim unless findings in the future back it up.

ok first why isnt the earth in better shape. Because man messed it up during the time he sinned and second were is Jesus my suggestion in read the book of revelation in the N.T. last book of the Bible for the awnser

I've read Revelations in it's entirety. Frankly, I think John was hopped up on mushrooms when he wrote that thing.

If man messed up Earth with his sin, shouldn't it be getting progressively worse for everyone? I mean, there's plenty of sin nowadays.

There's evidence for the Big Bang. There's no evidence for a creator. Get me some, and I might be swayed. But I see not one iota.

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.


It is preposterous to assume that because *something* has a maker that everything must have a maker. There are *problems* with lots of things. There are *problems* with creation. Fortunately, there is proof for evolution. Do you even know the second law of thermodynamics? Entropy has absolutely nothing to do with evolution so I don't see where you combine those two. BTW, this thread is about Bible thumpers and not the merits of evolution vs creationism.

Your theory is flawed. You are proposing that everything needs a maker, well even the creator needs a maker. And when and if you say the creator has always been here, then that means the universe could have always been here. Thats how this discussion is most likely going to go.could my theory be flawed because the reader is flawed or is it flawed because you would rather believe in something else? how do we know the creator did not creat himself

if not creation how did i come about? a random event that doesnt state why we have evolved more over time or a loving creator?

And who says we haven't? Evolution takes place over GENERATIONS, not simply the mutations over a life cycle. Genes that enable or disable some aspect of our lives are created and we pass those on to our offspring. That is evolution, not sudden change into some crazy new species. Gradual change over time creates new species.

Stormfold, you're forgetting that originally there was the Orthodox church, and that the Catholics broke off from it at a council some 400-600 years (I don't have the dates) after Christ's death. I'm not saying that Catholicism is a bad thing or anything, but you just need to know your facts. They claim apostolic succession as well.

Again though, that's all just fluff. Look to Christ and his resurrection, cause he's the coolest! :)

That's a matter of semantics, who broke off from whom in that case. There was the one church prior to that. There was some dissension about the true nature of Jesus. Was he 100% God, who just chose to look like man? Was he 100% man that just was very inspired by God? Was he both, the God-made-man, and 100% of each? (Yes, the math's hooey, but this is faith, right?)
Those who believed one way called themselves Orthodox, those who went the other called themselves Catholic. Catholics believe that Jesus is both fully man and fully God. If he were not fully human, how could he truly know what it is to be tempted - as the Gospels say he was? If he were not fully God, how could he act as he did?
Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox, or Armenian, or whatever) are considered Catholic by the Church. They are the Eastern rite, the more commonly called 'Catholic' is the Roman rite. This is not a difference like between Catholics and Protestants.

let me make my point.
If the watch has a design surely it has a maker so for man there has to be a maker. You may say "evolution or the big bang theory" but there a problem with those. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts its evolution theory that goes with it.

Seeing as evolution can now be done on computers in simulations, I expect it would be perfectly possible to 'evolve' a device that tells the time. The only reason we don't see any in the real world is that being able to tell the time does not convey any advantage.

I was about to also have a go at you for being one more person to completly misunderstand the second law of thermodynamics and still use it as an argument, but then I saw that has already been said to you many times.

Second law of thermo = increase in entropy. You say that an open system can change that, but note that anytime this happens, there must be a complex MECHANISM already in place to effect this change. What mechanism are you proposing that will build a living creature? Underwater volcanoes provide energy, and can stir things up, but there's no mechanism.


Second time, since it's going to be lost in the shuffle: Ker, to quickly answer your question. God created time. God just was, and since he created time and is outside of its effects, there was no "before". That makes him God.
Not true. Complex molecules like amino acids can be found on comets. There's no life form producing them there. A local decrease in entropy paid for by an overall increase in entropy throughout the system is well within the bounds of the second law.

ok who is sick of the people who call us as Christian crazy or insane cause we have a faith is ressurection when they dont think other religions are. post your ops
I am quite annoyed at intolerance of others, but I see about as much intolerance going both ways between almost every religion, and for that matter almost any group you divide humans into. There's no one group that's at fault, it's something that it seems like the whole human race will have to learn one way or another. I hope that eventually we all do learn to tolerate others, but until then, there's not a great deal that can be done.
:(

could my theory be flawed because the reader is flawed or is it flawed because you would rather believe in something else? how do we know the creator did not creat himself
Because that's damned impossible. Conservation of energy.

could my theory be flawed because the reader is flawed or is it flawed because you would rather believe in something else? how do we know the creator did not creat himself

He can't make himself because he has to exist to make something.

could my theory be flawed because the reader is flawed or is it flawed because you would rather believe in something else? how do we know the creator did not creat himself
No, no the theory is. How can one create one's self? It is a logical fallacy.

if not creation how did i come about? a random event that doesnt state why we have evolved more over time or a loving creator?
What is your question? It's poorly phrased and I don't understand it.

Is this going to turn into an evolution thread?

Anyway, the second law of thermodynamics doesn't prevent a local decrease in entropy as long as the total ammount of entropy in the system increases. The sun's energy is used by living things to turn random nutrients into highly organized life forms. The many particles and all the energy being ejected constantly from the sun increases the total entropy in the univers. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't contradict evolution. Only dishonest creationists who think lying in the service of their faith is justified teach that bullshit. I hate liars.
Most of them aren't "lying." For some reason unknown to me, some who call themselves Christian seem to feel that their faith depends upon being able to prove the Bible "true" in every respect ... literally!

Let's get something straight ... if God is God, He/She does not depend upon anyone proving anything. You don't need to prove evolution false or "creationism" true to justify your faith.

I've read Revelations in it's entirety. Frankly, I think John was hopped up on mushrooms when he wrote that thing.

If man messed up Earth with his sin, shouldn't it be getting progressively worse for everyone? I mean, there's plenty of sin nowadays.

There's evidence for the Big Bang. There's no evidence for a creator. Get me some, and I might be swayed. But I see not one iota.is that why every event has been prooven correct lets take KD for example he has been prooven and how has creation explain fish bones on mountains that are impossible for man to climb at the date that they were at. I can explain that ever hear of noah's flood?

could my theory be flawed because the reader is flawed or is it flawed because you would rather believe in something else? how do we know the creator did not creat himself

Before He makes himself a creator, He is not in a position to create anything.

Um ... not quite. Life is, as far as we know right now, the only counter-entropic force in the universe. The second law of thermodynamics posits that things move from more to less complex. Life moves from less complex to more complex.

"Study, to show thyself approved of God." :)
So complex molecules forming from numerous atoms isn't counter entropic?

first sorry and second you right cause america was created on that faith (Christianity)

This nation was not founded on Christianity.. :sniper: You should do some research before you make such a claim. This country was founded as a SECULAR :D nation.. And most of the founders were deists, not christians.

Deal with it. :eek:

is that why every event has been prooven correct lets take KD for example he has been prooven and how has creation explain fish bones on mountains that are impossible for man to climb at the date that they were. I can explain that ever hear of noah's flood?
For one, the earth is constantly changing. At one point oceans covered the entire face of the earth. Unless you assume the world is only a mere 6,000 years old.

could my theory be flawed because the reader is flawed or is it flawed because you would rather believe in something else? how do we know the creator did not creat himself
Actually, a better way to argue for the existance of a God is this:

God is perfect. As a quality of God's perfectness, he is perfect in every way. Part of the essence of this perfectness is God's existance. He existed because it is His essence to exist perfectly, and there is no way for Him not to.

(i.e., he always existed and always will, and there was no "creation" of him)

Of course, it probably won't convince anybody, but there are a few less holes in the logic here because the God being referred to exists by essence, rather than creating hissefl, and there isn't rally a way to disprove what God's essence is or is not. Unfortunately, it sort of violates scientific method so scientist types won't listen to it, I'd bet.
:(

And who says we haven't? Evolution takes place over GENERATIONS, not simply the mutations over a life cycle. Genes that enable or disable some aspect of our lives are created and we pass those on to our offspring. That is evolution, not sudden change into some crazy new species. Gradual change over time creates new species.is that why mean in cave drawing look like modern day man because they changed

is that why every event has been prooven correct lets take KD for example he has been prooven and how has creation explain fish bones on mountains that are impossible for man to climb at the date that they were at. I can explain that ever hear of noah's flood?

So can I. Plate tectonics. Land that was formerly part of the sea can in fact be raised by collision with another plate.

Who the hell is KD?

Personally, I don't think christians are being "persecuted" enough. Their leadership is drunk with their percieved power, and it's leading to frightening things, such as the curtailing of civil rights in the form of gay marriage bans in a few states, the constant dull roar of abortion protest, and so on. People like Dobson, Falwell, and all the other bullshit religo-facists need to re-experience REAL persecution before they can get on their high horses and claim they're "under siege". They need to get back to the real roots of christianity, because what they're doing right now is nothing more than capitolizing on their sheeples fears of other people.

The only REAL christian died on the cross almost 2000 years ago. None of you "outspoken" christians know a shred of what he, or god for that matter, wanted.

is that why mean in cave drawing look like modern day man because they changed

Er...men in cave drawings usually only look like stick figures. So unless we've always been anorexic...

I am respect other's beleifs, and also try to understand them, but I find it offensive when people pressure me into some beleif system because "Reason this, reason that", which I find hard to beleive that any god would not frown upon this.

I'm not an athiest, because I do beleive in a higher power, I just havn't decided out of any of the ones currently out there that any of them are real. Sorry if this offends anyone, it's just how I feel.

is that why mean in cave drawing look like modern day man because they changed
The men in cave men drawings are bleedin' stick figures. You can get anything from that.

This nation was not founded on Christianity.. :sniper: You should do some research before you make such a claim. This country was founded as a SECULAR :D nation.. And most of the founders were deists, not christians.

Deal with it. :eek:
can you proove this?

Um ... not quite. Life is, as far as we know right now, the only counter-entropic force in the universe. The second law of thermodynamics posits that things move from more to less complex. Life moves from less complex to more complex.
:)

But the second law is clear about where it states- only in a closed system. For God's sake will the anti-evolutionists who use science please try to do more research on the science in question before they use it.

is that why mean in cave drawing look like modern day man because they changed
You can't debunk evolution because of a few bloody cave drawings.

and isnt it also required to kill everyone who isnt a muslim in order to be a good muslim? well thats what i got out of it anyway



So it would seem.

Look, believe what you want to believe, but this is my argument and then I'm done.

God creates everything to bring himself glory. He can do this because he's God, and if he's not about his own glory, who's is he about? Bob in the conference room? So he creates creation to reflect his glory perfectly. He creates man and woman. They have everything they could want. There's only one rule; they can do anything to their heart's desire

So what do they do? They try to steal some of it. They think they'll just make this little bit about themselves, create their own story. But man doesn't have any glory of his own. Like a mirror, he is just capable of reflecting it. So if God's not shining on him and he's not reflecting, he's dark and ugly. So man separates himself from God and dies inside.

So what does God do in response? Reference my first thread on page 5, but basically, in order to take revenge... he dies for us. He takes all the wrath that we deserve upon himself in order for us to be able to come back to him. That's how awesome God is.

Now, you may argue about evolution and whatnot. I did too when I was first introduced to Christianity, but I found the claims of Christianity to be far more compelling. I found the claims of Christianity to be far more compelling that those of other religions. I met God, and I found him pretty darn compelling to, and I've never regretted giving him my life.

Evolution is possibly just a smoke screen for some of you. If evolution were proved false and creationism were proved true. If every question you had was answered, would you become a Christian? Think about it; the answer may surprise you.

I tell you this because God loves you and has a plan for your life and wants you to return to him. I don't get into heaven by telling you--my fate is already sealed by Christ's blood and I get no extra points or bonuses for doing this. I'm commanded to and I love you enough that I want to tell you that Christ loves you more than you could ever understand. I'm not better than you on any point, but Christ is better than both of us, and he deserves our worship.

He's been with me ever since, and I've never regretted it, and I'd love it if you'd come to know him. It's not about what you do, it's not about how good you are. Christ doesn't love you because of who you are. He loves you because of who he is! And that amazes me. Take one step; ask him to enter your life and show you who he is, and you'll be blown away.

Adios all, and I hoped you have a blessed day.

is that why every event has been prooven correct lets take KD for example he has been prooven and how has creation explain fish bones on mountains that are impossible for man to climb at the date that they were at. I can explain that ever hear of noah's flood?
Fish bones can be found on mountains because the earth is billions of years old, and those mountains were once at the bottom of shallow seas. Tectonic activity pushed them up. If you don't beleive in plate tectonics how do you explain earthquakes?

ok who is sick of the people who call us as Christian crazy or insane cause we have a faith is ressurection when they dont think other religions are. post your ops
Most of us have said repeatedly that we have issues with Fundamentalists. It's a great misconception that Fundamentalists are the only Christians there are, and the reason for that is that they're the ones who are loudest, and the ones in the media. You don't find liberal Christians, non-denominations, or moderates, on television bombing abortion clinics, breaking into Schiavo's hospital, or calling homosexuals "sodomites."

That's the main issue, I think. If you want people to respect Christians more, don't do it by accusing the other side of wrongdoing. That does nothing but encourage more conflict. Instead, as Jesus said, 'Remove the plank from your eye, before trying to remove the plank from mine."

That's not meant to say that you're blind, in this case, but it's a good analogy, in that if Christians could show society that they're not all out to convert the world, that they don't consider themselves 'superior', and that they don't all interpret the Bible superstitiously, then the criticism people have of "Christianity" would disappear. Instead, we'd criticize these specific groups in Christianity, which are the real problem, not the religion itself. Because while I agree Fundamentalist Christians are the real wackos and truly insane, I believe Christianity is a beautiful religion, and is beneficial to the world, for promoting morality, even if a select few distort its teachings to promote hatred against Muslims, homosexuals, liberals, and feminists.

So can I. Plate tectonics. Land that was formerly part of the sea can in fact be raised by collision with another plate.

Who the hell is KD?KD is short for King David

can you proove this?
The burden of proof lies on he who alledges it. You said we are founded as a Christian nation, present your proof.

this has to be the worst anti-evolution thread i have ever seen.

look: evolution is right.

here's why:

look at horse breeding. i'm not talking about the fossil record that shows ancient horses to be about the size of dogs, i'm talking about modern horse breeding.

when we want to breed horses for a particular ability (let's use speed in this example) we will take the two fastest horses and breed them together.

the child horse will have inherited the speed of the two parent horses.

repeating the process will gradually result in faster and faster horses.

as for the ones that are not up to scratch, we simply don't let them breed.

sometimes there are also throwbacks, where the child horse will inherit a gene from a grandparent that does not allow it to run as fast as the parents. these horses are simply put into the category with the rest of the horses that do not run fast, and are not allowed to breed.


now, let's take that system, and see how it works in nature.

in nature, the horses that run the fastest survive, because they can outrun the predators. the ones that run too slow get eaten.

since the only horses left alive are the ones with great speed, quite obviously, all the horses that breed are going to inherit the fast genes from the parents.

any that don't get eaten.

over time, the average speed of the species gets faster and faster and faster, because anyone that is too slow gets eaten.


see? it is possible for specias to change over time.

if not creation how did i come about? a random event that doesnt state why we have evolved more over time or a loving creator?
One more time ... you do not have to prove evolution false or creationism true to justify your faith.

Evolution is possibly just a smoke screen for some of you. If evolution were proved false and creationism were proved true. If every question you had was answered, would you become a Christian? Think about it; the answer may surprise you.

I'd become a Deist, not a Christian. I dunno which bloody God. Is it Yahweh? Jehovah? Allah? Vishnu?

is that why mean in cave drawing look like modern day man because they changed
Not all of them look like modern men. The ones depicting people from the last few hundred thousan years do because Cro Magnon was a modern man. Before that they look less and less human, and more and more apelike. Just like the fossils we find. It's evidence of hominid evolution over millions of years.

Edit: I misunderstood. I thought you meant modern depictions of cave men. The cave art was made by Cro Magnons. Basically the first modern humans.

this has to be the worst anti-evolution thread i have ever seen.

look: evolution is right.

here's why:

look at horse breeding. i'm not talking about the fossil record that shows ancient horses to be about the size of dogs, i'm talking about modern horse breeding.

when we want to breed horses for a particular ability (let's use speed in this example) we will take the two fastest horses and breed them together.

the child horse will have inherited the speed of the two parent horses.

repeating the process will gradually result in faster and faster horses.

as for the ones that are not up to scratch, we simply don't let them breed.

sometimes there are also throwbacks, where the child horse will inherit a gene from a grandparent that does not allow it to run as fast as the parents. these horses are simply put into the category with the rest of the horses that do not run fast, and are not allowed to breed.


now, let's take that system, and see how it works in nature.

in nature, the horses that run the fastest survive, because they can outrun the predators. the ones that run too slow get eaten.

since the only horses left alive are the ones with great speed, quite obviously, all the horses that breed are going to inherit the fast genes from the parents.

any that don't get eaten.

over time, the average speed of the species gets faster and faster and faster, because anyone that is too slow gets eaten.


see? it is possible for specias to change over time.

Extremely possible, and it happens. Very well-written.

One more time ... you do not have to prove evolution false or creationism true to justify your faith.

I absolutely agree. My boyfriend and I used to debate about it (he was pro-creationism, i was pro-evolution) until we realized it was pointless.

Fish bones can be found on mountains because the earth is billions of years old, and those mountains were once at the bottom of shallow seas. Tectonic activity pushed them up. If you don't beleive in plate tectonics how do you explain earthquakes?now time to apply the funness you claim the earth is billions of years old yet at the same time scientist say the sun is getting smaller every second so if the earth is billions of years old then the sun would have been huge which would have resulted in global burning killing all human race upon the planet in second

is that why mean in cave drawing look like modern day man because they changed

<sarcasm> I surrender. Instead, I'm going to go draw a picture of me with a million dollars and use that to convince the bank to give me a million dollars. </sarcasm>

Yay Plutophobia! Big hug!

Evolution is possibly just a smoke screen for some of you. If evolution were proved false and creationism were proved true. If every question you had was answered, would you become a Christian? Think about it; the answer may surprise you.


Not really. I for one have considered this issue before, and decided that if Christianity was proved true, I would not become a Christian, because if God exists, He is, in my opinion, a bit of a bastard and I refuse to worship Him.

KD is short for King David
He, admittedly, could be true. But I've seen no place where his existance has been proved beyond a doubt. He could be mythical.

He, admittedly, could be true. But I've seen no place where his existance has been proved beyond a doubt. He could be mythical.
Like Santa Claus and Michael Jackson.

can you proove this?

Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)

However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.

Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.

Of course the Declaration stands as a great political document. Its author aimed at a future government designed and upheld by people and not based on a superstitious god or religious monarchy. It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all get born with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." Please note that the Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by Christianity. It bears repeating: "Governments are instituted among men."

The pursuit of happiness does not mean a guarantee of happiness, only that we have the freedom to pursue it. Our Law of the Land incorporates this freedom of pursuit in the Constitution. We can believe or not believe as we wish. We may succeed or fail in our pursuit, but our Constitution (and not the Declaration) protects our unalienable rights in our attempt at happiness.

Moreover, the mentioning of God in the Declaration does not describe the personal God of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson who held deist beliefs, wrote the majority of the Declaration. The Declaration describes "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees with deist philosophy and might even appeal to those of pantheistical beliefs, but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.

Unlike most governments of the past, the American Founding Fathers set up a government divorced from any religion. Their establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves of its origin; they knew this as a ubiquitous unspoken given. However, as the United States delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of the U.S. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. goverenment to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Joel Barlow wrote the original English version of the treaty, including Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all U.S. Treaties do (see the Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.")

Although the Treaty of Tripoli under agreement only lasted a few years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.

As I said.. Deal with it. :eek:

I'd become a Deist, not a Christian. I dunno which bloody God. Is it Yahweh? Jehovah? Allah? Vishnu?
Wow. This is the first time I've ever actually met another Deist.

now time to apply the funness you claim the earth is billions of years old yet at the same time scientist say the sun is getting smaller every second so if the earth is billions of years old then the sun would have been huge which would have resulted in global burning killing all human race upon the planet in second

The Sun is getting smaller? I haven't heard that, so if it's true then it must be happening very slowly. Also, bear in mind that if it's true, then it doesn't mean it has always and will always. Before it dies, it will expand a lot.

So complex molecules forming from numerous atoms isn't counter entropic?
Not unless life results from the process. There is something called a "bifurcation point" where adding additional energy to an existing system creates a period of instability, forcing the system to change. When the change is in the direction of greater complexity and conditions are right, the end result will be at least one step closer to life. This is where the counter-entropic results come from.

He, admittedly, could be true. But I've seen no place where his existance has been proved beyond a doubt. He could be mythical. thats why Jerusalem is called "david's city" that why it has been prooved that there was a king over isreal known as david whos son was solomon?

thats why Jerusalem is called "david's city" that why it has been prooved that there was a king over isreal known as david whos son was solomon?

Of course those were actual people. But that still doesn't do anything to further your argument.

thats why Jerusalem is called "david's city" that why it has been prooved that there was a king over isreal known as david whos son was solomon?

Why does the fact that Jerusalem is called 'David's City' prove that the David in question had a son called Solomon?

The Sun is getting smaller? I haven't heard that, so if it's true then it must be happening very slowly. Also, bear in mind that if it's true, then it doesn't mean it has always and will always. Before it dies, it will expand a lot.
All we need look at are the red super giants.

acualy it boosts it alot david himself believed in God and turned out to be one of the most succesful kings in israel history

now time to apply the funness you claim the earth is billions of years old yet at the same time scientist say the sun is getting smaller every second so if the earth is billions of years old then the sun would have been huge which would have resulted in global burning killing all human race upon the planet in second
What scientists extrapolated that? Certainly not reputable ones who publish in peer reviewed journals. You're getting all your information from liars who are just pushing their creationist agenda by eliminating facts which prove them wrong and substituting speculation that supports their position.

You betcha, but try getting that argument past your atheist, science-worshipping professor.

Christians insist that Christianity is not a relgion, but a relationship, 'twixt you and your savior, a unique trait of any relgion. And thus is the truth, as religions are put in place by man, while Christianity is God's. On the same note, scientists insist that science is not a religion, but the truth. And, since they have more influcence, what is the most politically incorrect and most offensive piece of doctrine is now standard.

Thank you. *Falls down at feet and grovels, then proceeds to light himself on fire and roast a marshmallow.*

thats why Jerusalem is called "david's city" that why it has been prooved that there was a king over isreal known as david whos son was solomon?

Jerusalem's name is irrelevant. There's a town called "Armegeddon," and I don't see any Horsemen around.

A king by that name may exist, but does it mean that David's exploits were real? Does it mean its the same guy as mentioned in the Bible?


No.

All we need look at are the red super giants.

Yes, exactly. Sorry for drifting slighty off topic here, but does anyone know if this thing about the Sun getting smaller at the moment is true or not? I'm actually quite curious now.

I absolutely agree. My boyfriend and I used to debate about it (he was pro-creationism, i was pro-evolution) until we realized it was pointless.
A very wise decision on both your parts! :)

Jerusalem's name is irrelevant. There's a town called "Armegeddon," and I don't see any Horsemen around.

A king by that name may exist, but does it mean that David's exploits were real? Does it mean its the same guy as mentioned in the Bible?


No.
If you haven't seen any horsemen, then you aren't looking very carefully.

I thougth this thread was about bible bashers?

acualy your wrong the town armegedon is english for the hebrew word "harmegedin" which then translates into meggido aka Mt.Meggido and the reason why you dont see horsemen is because those are the four hoursemen of the apocalypse which are mentioned in the prophetic book of revelation which names thing to come

A very wise decision on both your parts! :)

I took him into the Smithsonian once and asked him to explain dinosaurs...I've never seen him get so tongue-tied before!

A) The sun getting smaller is paranoia on the American part
B) Religion should not be allowed in schools unless people want to be reliogous in school.
C) What I mean by B) is that if you want to be religous or not, noone should decide for you, you should decide for yourself
D) These types of discussions are pointless anyway.
:)

I thougth this thread was about bible bashers?

Bible bashers aren't just bible bashers. They have a lot to say on a wide variety of subjects. They're actually quite nice people.

Bible bashers aren't just bible bashers. They have a lot to say on a wide variety of subjects. They're actually quite nice people.

I have plans to put hotel bibles in toilets, and hey, I'm the nicest person I've ever known :D.

acualy your wrong the town armegedon is english for the hebrew word "harmegedin" which then translates into meggido aka Mt.Meggido and the reason why you dont see horsemen is because those are the four hoursemen of the apocalypse which are mentioned in the prophetic book of revelation which names thing to come

No, actually its a town in America somewhere. I don't remember which state.

Oh, and prophets are ridiculous. They've never managed to achieve an accuracy greater than what luck would give them.

A) The sun getting smaller is paranoia on the American part
B) Religion should not be allowed in schools unless people want to be reliogous in school.
C) What I mean by B) is that if you want to be religous or not, noone should decide for you, you should decide for yourself
D) These types of discussions are pointless anyway.
:)
Amen. Now lets all give the world the a coke.

Look, believe what you want to believe, but this is my argument and then I'm done.

God creates everything to bring himself glory. He can do this because he's God, and if he's not about his own glory, who's is he about? Bob in the conference room? So he creates creation to reflect his glory perfectly. He creates man and woman. They have everything they could want. There's only one rule; they can do anything to their heart's desire

So what do they do? They try to steal some of it. They think they'll just make this little bit about themselves, create their own story. But man doesn't have any glory of his own. Like a mirror, he is just capable of reflecting it. So if God's not shining on him and he's not reflecting, he's dark and ugly. So man separates himself from God and dies inside.

Adios all, and I hoped you have a blessed day.

So, this is a shock? god makes man in his image, so of course, like god, they'll want glory - that stands to reason.

Evolution is possibly just a smoke screen for some of you. If evolution were proved false and creationism were proved true. If every question you had was answered, would you become a Christian? Think about it; the answer may surprise you..


If religion could be proved, I dont think there would be a lot of it, do you agree? it would shed light on all the other religions, who, like christianity, swear blind that they're the true faith, (not that i'm bashing christianity) and I myself felt caught in the middle for far too long as a catholic. so I beleive in a non specific power, and that'll do me and hopefully any gods that do exist.

Bible bashers aren't just bible bashers. They have a lot to say on a wide variety of subjects. They're actually quite nice people.

Sorry but bible bashers do my head in....always trying to force their (mainly) sh*t down my throat

A) The sun getting smaller is paranoia on the American part
B) Religion should not be allowed in schools unless people want to be reliogous in school.
C) What I mean by B) is that if you want to be religous or not, noone should decide for you, you should decide for yourself
D) These types of discussions are pointless anyway.
:)

Couldn't agree more!

I have plans to put hotel bibles in toilets, and hey, I'm the nicest person I've ever known :D.
Funny thing, I collect Bibles.....I don't know why.

Amen. Now lets all give the world the a coke.

Hows about a beer instead?

Yes, exactly. Sorry for drifting slighty off topic here, but does anyone know if this thing about the Sun getting smaller at the moment is true or not? I'm actually quite curious now.
Perhaps, but at an almost imperceptable rate. All stars in the main sequence go through an evolution over time which begins with them being very hot, continues on through an incrediblly long period of cooling until they reach a stable state at which time they begin to contract very, very slowly until they reach a point where collapse and explosion become inevitable.

Part of the problem with understanding evolution and other exremely long-term processes is our inability to visualize geologic time. We're talking here about millions, even billions of years. "And in time, even death may die." :)

Yes, exactly. Sorry for drifting slighty off topic here, but does anyone know if this thing about the Sun getting smaller at the moment is true or not? I'm actually quite curious now.

Read this (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/PSCF9-86VanTill.html)

I have plans to put hotel bibles in toilets, and hey, I'm the nicest person I've ever known :D.

I had a bible once, but I think I burned it... in a very nice way of course!

No, actually its a town in America somewhere. I don't remember which state.

Oh, and prophets are ridiculous. They've never managed to achieve an accuracy greater than what luck would give them.thats why the great prophet isiah predicted babylon's fall 150 times and now look babylon aka iraq is destroyed

Yes, exactly. Sorry for drifting slighty off topic here, but does anyone know if this thing about the Sun getting smaller at the moment is true or not? I'm actually quite curious now.
Well, it's emitting particles, and the process of fusion turns two atoms into one, so unless it's gravity is sucking in a significant ammount of matter, yes it is, but not fast enough to disprove a multi billion year old earth.

Sorry but bible thumpers do my head in....always trying to force their (mainly) sh*t down my throat

I had a bible once, but I think I burned it... in a very nice way of course!

Don't forget about rolling blunts from the Bible's pages!

Sorry but bible thumpers do my head in....always trying to force their (mainly) sh*t down my throat

Theif

Bible bashers aren't just bible bashers. They have a lot to say on a wide variety of subjects. They're actually quite nice people.
Why, some of my best friends are atheists! :D

thats why the great prophet isiah predicted babylon's fall 150 times and now look babylon aka iraq is destroyed

Why 150 times? Was he not sure if the first one would work?

Any prophecy predicting a civilization's fall will come true eventually. All civilizations fall.

Wow. This is the first time I've ever actually met another Deist.

I know several. They're working on me - and things like the nonsense I've seen in this thread are convincing me that they may be right.
History says that if you're going to be Christian, than Catholic's the closest to Jesus' words - but who's to say that Christianity's necessarily the way to go? The majority of Christians alternately scare me and piss me off - and that includes the Church. (I hesitate to say so, because I know I'm going to sound bad after defending Catholicism, but it's the way I was raised and old habits die hard.)
After all, evolution's increasingly proven - and even Catholics are coming to admit that - there is nothing inherently evil in homosexuals, birth control isn't the idea of Satan, and the Bible doesn't have to be taken so d**n literally!

thats why the great prophet isiah predicted babylon's fall 150 times and now look babylon aka iraq is destroyed


of course you're able to predict a country falling.

no nation lasts forever.

[prophetic voice] i predict that some day in the future, the nation of the united states of america will meet its demise [/prophetic voice]

does that make me a prophet?

according to you it does.


[edit] damnit gene yuss, you beat me to it

Don't forget about rolling blunts from the Bible's pages!
Pots too expensive for me.

Sorry but bible thumpers do my head in....always trying to force their (mainly) sh*t down my throat
Tell them Genesis is an allegory. That always dumbfounds them. Heh! :D

Don't forget about rolling blunts from the Bible's pages!

I've actually done that. Bible paper tastes like shit. I think it's the cheesy red dye the put around the edges...

of course you're able to predict a country falling.

no nation lasts forever.

[prophetic voice] i predict that some day in the future, the nation of the united states of america will meet its demise [/prophetic voice]

does that make me a prophet?

according to you it does.
You are a prophet!
*bows*

The Gospel is pretty simple: we've all sinned, thus we're all not perfect. Perfection is required by God to attain salvation. All these other religions are about how you have to DO stuff to get into Heaven, but Christian belief is that nothing you can do can get you there. I don't deserve Heaven; you don't deserve Heaven; no one deserves Heaven. We tried to steal God's glory, and so we condemned ourselves.

So what does God do to take out his revenge? He becomes one of us (at this the angels probably puked!), and died in our place, taking on all the punishment that every human being deserves. If God went around with a little pricing gun and stuck you with it, the price would read "Jesus". That's how much he loves and values you. So he's paid the price and he offers us the promise of his resurrection, because to know him is eternal life. All ANYONE has to do is ask for it. The Bible says that "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13). Note that there are no exceptions. And the cool thing is, once you receive salvation, you can't lose it. You didn't do anything to get it, so it makes sense that nothing you can do would cause you to lose it. Christ paid for ALL sins (past, present, and future), and once you call upon him to forgive you, you become a SON or DAUGHTER of God. That's really friggen' cool to me, especially the first time I ever heard it later in life.

Even cooler is that when we become Christians, we begin a RELATIONSHIP with God, not some religion. He's our constant comfort and companion, leader and captain, hero, and lover. We receive the Holy Spirit (God) inside us, and he lives through us. So it's not even up to us to live the Christian life. We simply surrender to God.

The reason we try to tell people that simple truth is because we have experienced it and know it to be true, and we would love to offer it to you, not so that we feel better about ourselves or superior, but because we would love for you to meet Jesus and because he deserves your worship. Your invited; all of you are invited.

If you've got any questions, just ask or email me.


Ephesians 2:8,9-
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.


Thank you.

I've actually done that. Bible paper tastes like shit. I think it's the cheesy red dye the put around the edges...

The little gideons bibles make good rolling paper in a pinch though. It's like rice paper or something.

The problem is that children aren't told to think for themselves and to find spirituality by research and finding what they consider is right according to their morals, etc. They are brainwashed, led to think that what they hear in the bible is the only truth and that whatever else they hear are lies.

of course you're able to predict a country falling.

no nation lasts forever.

[prophetic voice] i predict that some day in the future, the nation of the united states of america will meet its demise [/prophetic voice]

does that make me a prophet?

according to you it does.


[edit] damnit gene yuss, you beat me to itok ill go 1 better they predicted Jesus' birth over 3,000 year before it happened right down to detail

thats why the great prophet isiah predicted babylon's fall 150 times and now look babylon aka iraq is destroyed
But Iraq isn't destroyed. It's just changing it's government. Any "prophecy" that's sufficiently vague will in time seem to come true. Too many events can satisfy the requirements of a vague prophecy, so it's as worthless as tits on a bull.

I took him into the Smithsonian once and asked him to explain dinosaurs...I've never seen him get so tongue-tied before!
Confronting a prospective change in perspective is almost always painful. I hope you were gentle! :D

I've actually done that. Bible paper tastes like shit. I think it's the cheesy red dye the put around the edges...

Depends on the type of Bible, really. A standard-issue Mormon Plasticback will give you A-Grade blunts every time!

ok ill go 1 better they predicted Jesus' birth over 3,000 year before it happened right down to detail
No, they really didn't. The prophecies are vague, and they still have to stretch meanings and interpretations to make it seem satisfied.

The nation of Piracy and Nuns will never fall!

...sigh...just kidding. The pirates and nuns will probably do each other in. Damn prophecies.

ok ill go 1 better they predicted Jesus' birth over 3,000 year before it happened right down to detail
pretty easy to do, considering that the Jesus myth (down to very specific details) was ripped off from myths that existed waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Jesus was supposedly born.

also, Jesus failed to fulfill several aspects of the prophesies, depending on who you ask...after all, the prophesies said he had to be of the line of David, but that would mean that Joseph would need to be his father, rather than Mary being magically inseminated by God.

But Iraq isn't destroyed. It's just changing it's government. Any "prophecy" that's sufficiently vague will in time seem to come true. Too many events can satisfy the requirements of a vague prophecy, so it's as worthless as tits on a bull.

I dunno... You can do some freaky shit with bull tits.

ok ill go 1 better they predicted Jesus' birth over 3,000 year before it happened right down to detail

.

But Iraq isn't destroyed. It's just changing it's government. Any "prophecy" that's sufficiently vague will in time seem to come true. Too many events can satisfy the requirements of a vague prophecy, so it's as worthless as tits on a bull.

I love this great example of diversifying conversations in this thread! A great mixture of people discussing bible bashing in both the metaphorical and literal sense!

The problem is that children aren't told to think for themselves and to find spirituality by research and finding what they consider is right according to their morals, etc. They are brainwashed, led to think that what they hear in the bible is the only truth and that whatever else they hear are lies.
And to complete the intellectual prison, they are often told that to doubt is to be consigned to hell for all eternity. Sigh.

The unexamined faith is actually no faith at all!

ok ill go 1 better they predicted Jesus' birth over 3,000 year before it happened right down to detail
I predict his birth now, in two years, six years, and seventeen years time.....for good measure i also predict his birth in the next 10,0000 years time

I know several. They're working on me - and things like the nonsense I've seen in this thread are convincing me that they may be right.
History says that if you're going to be Christian, than Catholic's the closest to Jesus' words - but who's to say that Christianity's necessarily the way to go? The majority of Christians alternately scare me and piss me off - and that includes the Church. (I hesitate to say so, because I know I'm going to sound bad after defending Catholicism, but it's the way I was raised and old habits die hard.)
After all, evolution's increasingly proven - and even Catholics are coming to admit that - there is nothing inherently evil in homosexuals, birth control isn't the idea of Satan, and the Bible doesn't have to be taken so d**n literally!


If the bible was taken so literally, it would leave millions without a hobby! :eek: my faith totally went out the window when I started reading about christian and catholic equality too, which goes like this:

"These are fine, these are fine, these are all fine, except THESE people"

Equality doesn't have an except in it. If it did, it would not be equality. I'm not trying to disprove anything here, just my opinion.

But Iraq isn't destroyed. It's just changing it's government. Any "prophecy" that's sufficiently vague will in time seem to come true. Too many events can satisfy the requirements of a vague prophecy, so it's as worthless as tits on a bull.did you know that babylon was detroyed by king david isiah lived what 5 or 600 year before david

Confronting a prospective change in perspective is almost always painful. I hope you were gentle! :D

Hey, he wasn't gentle when he got his family to gang up on me and shove Creationism down my throat, so I wasn't gentle at the Smithsonian. ;)

I dunno... You can do some freaky shit with bull tits.
ROFLMAO! Oh, GROAN! Heh! :D

Depends on the type of Bible, really. A standard-issue Mormon Plasticback will give you A-Grade blunts every time!
Where would I go about buying one of these?

Still waiting for a rebuttal from Ffc2 on my proof that the U.S. was founded as a secular nation. Or is the truth too much to handle?

Where would I go about buying one of these?


i think those are the ones you get free in hotels.

they are always leaving them in the drawers for people to find.

[edit] damnit gene yuss, you beat me to it

Because I own you.

ok ill go 1 better they predicted Jesus' birth over 3,000 year before it happened right down to detail

How do we know the so-called Prophet Isiah or Ezekiel or whatever even existed? And if he did, what if they changed the facts to fit the hypothesis? They were sure that a man with certain atributes was the son of god, so when they saw those atributes they assumed he was. Also, the Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of God at all. So who's right?

Where would I go about buying one of these?

You have to know the right people on the street.

Hey, he wasn't gentle when he got his family to gang up on me and shove Creationism down my throat, so I wasn't gentle at the Smithsonian. ;)
Um ... are the two of you still an item???

Still waiting for a rebuttal from Ffc2 on my proof that the U.S. was founded as a secular nation. Or is the truth too much to handle?

I'm still waiting for one from Stormfold about concepts the Catholic church is in denial about. I think when people hear things they don't want to hear...they ignore them. =)

Still waiting for a rebuttal from Ffc2 on my proof that the U.S. was founded as a secular nation. Or is the truth too much to handle?


you really needed to ask?

why do you think he's such a rabid theist?

Still waiting for a rebuttal from Ffc2 on my proof that the U.S. was founded as a secular nation. Or is the truth too much to handle?

Welcome to the concept of faith!

did you know that babylon was detroyed by king david isiah lived what 5 or 600 year before david
Just adds to my argument. If you have a sufficiently vague prophecy it can be fulfilled by many events. Especially if you are willing to stretch things to the point that you consider the current nation of Iraq to be babylon and it's current state to be "destroyed".

Um ... are the two of you still an item???
Three years and counting. =D

i think those are the ones you get free in hotels.

they are always leaving them in the drawers for people to find.
I thought those were from the Gideons?

thats why the great prophet isiah predicted babylon's fall 150 times and now look babylon aka iraq is destroyed

All civilization will eventually fall. I could predict that America will be fall eventually. Chances are that three thousand years from now, it will no longer exist. If it does, it won't be nearly as powerful as it is now.

did you know that babylon was detroyed by king david isiah lived what 5 or 600 year before david

Did you pay any attention to what I said?

Any country will fall in time. I can predict, with all certainty, that at some point, hmm, let's say India will dissappear. And I will be right, because even if it doesn't happen soon it's SURE to happen in, oh, 4.5 billion years.

I predict america is a pile of sh*t......hang on.......prediction came true!!!!!!

I thought those were from the Gideons?

gideons bibles make great joints, as I stated earlier. =)

Well, who made that maker and who made that maker and so on and so on.


AHEM.


Genesis 1:1- In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,..."


So, nothing before God. Correct?

I predict america is a pile of sh*t......hang on.......prediction came true!!!!!!
Deleted post. Don't want to flame.

Did you pay any attention to what I said?

Any country will fall in time. I can predict, with all certainty, that at some point, hmm, let's say India will dissappear. And I will be right, because even if it doesn't happen soon it's SURE to happen in, oh, 4.5 billion years.
Sit back, relax, and watch. Thats what I suggest.

All civilization will eventually fall. I could predict that America will be fall eventually. Chances are that three thousand years from now, it will no longer exist. If it does, it won't be nearly as powerful as it is now.

Yeah, it's about damn time that the welsh had an empire :p

AHEM.


Genesis 1:1- In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,..."


So, nothing before God. Correct?

That doesn't follow on.

AHEM.


Genesis 1:1- In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,..."


So, nothing before God. Correct?


Which brings to question "Who created God?" And that question brings up more: "Who created the one who created God?" Ad so on and so forth into infinity. lol

I predict your daughter will become a whore, just like her grandmother.

That was personal - oh well.....came true though

AHEM.


Genesis 1:1- In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,..."


So, nothing before God. Correct?

Assuming the literal accuracy of Genesis, yes.

Going by the facts, no.

AHEM.


Genesis 1:1- In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,..."


So, nothing before God. Correct?
Was that an actual argument or were you being painfully sarcastic?

Which brings to question "Who created God?" And that question brings up more: "Who created the onje who created God?" Ad so on and so forth into infinity. lol

Reminds me of that thing about turtles all the way down...

AHEM.


Genesis 1:1- In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,..."


So, nothing before God. Correct?


so where did god come from?

gideons bibles make great joints, as I stated earlier. =)

Last time I was in a hotel, I was looking at the Bible. I saw a list of various quotes on different subjects. They didn't have the actual quotes down, only the verses and page numbers. So I tore out all those pages and threw them out. >_>

Reminds me of that thing about turtles all the way down...


The turtle does't need to stand on anything! It's turtle! It swims!

Joke!

Last time I was in a hotel, I was looking at the Bible. I saw a list of various quotes on different subjects. They didn't have the actual quotes down, only the verses and page numbers. So I tore out all those pages and threw them out. >_>
:headbang: <--- your brain on drugs

I have warning label stickers for hotel buy-bulls :D

The turtle does't need to stand on anything! It's turtle! It swims!

Joke!

I think he was refering to Pratchett

Reminds me of that thing about turtles all the way down...


Humans apparantly have a problem with beginnings, meaning we can't seem to fathom something existing without reason. Which is why we have faith in the first place - be a funny sort of day when they find out how the universe started.

I think he was refering to Pratchett

Well, I was. I dunno about him.

I think he was refering to Pratchett

And no, he wasn't refering to Terry Pratchet, allthough there is similarity. Let me go pull out a book :D

Well, I was. I dunno about him.

ok.....*backing off now*

And no, he wasn't refering to Terry Pratchet, allthough there is similarity. Let me go pull out a book :D

Please do. Pterry needs some more fans!