NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I know this has been done before, but I didn't follow those threads. Sorry.

So why do some religions think god cares if two guys or two womyn (in memory of HerPower) get it on?

it turns out a lot of religions say that the Gods care quite a lot about what people do.

it turns out a lot of religions say that the Gods care quite a lot about what people do.
Yeah, I know. I just don't understand why.

It's all part of my scheme to be mean.

It starts with the premise that God created humanity.
Then, once a religion has a holy book to base its teachings off, that book generally makes broad statements about how god, as creator of humanity, feels humans ought to behave. People obeying these guidelines are following religion.
If you don't like the guidelines, don't join the religion.

Hmmm

From what i learnt in Torah Class.

1. It's Un-natural.
2. It's a waste of Sperm.


If it Homosexuality is a choice, then one can simply change correct? And if it's genetic, then there'd be no problem if we removed that gene in the future, correct?

But if we look at Ancient Greece, particulary Sparta, Homosexuality was encouraged only during the army... so i think it's more of a choice thing, making it indeed un-natural. There might be a gene, that makes them more inclined to like people of the same sex...but not 100%

2. Judaism holds that all life is precious, even potential life, so Sperm is not to be wasted, which is why Oral and Anal sex is generally forbidden...unless you pull out...and yeah.

If this is too graphic...please say so now.

So G-d wants us, to rehabilitate them if possible...and if not, then kill them. ^^;

It's all part of my scheme to be mean.
*wags finger*
Naughty naughty!

It's not that God cares whether we're gay, straight, or in-between, The Bible, claims that all have sinned and fallen short of God's graces, but it also says that God loves us, and forgets our sins when we ask him to be in our life, so I would guess that people are uncomfortable with the idea, though as I conservative, I personally do not care for homosexuality, but again I'm not god, nor are the churches, so if you seek God, you can find him, even without going to church.

For the hell of it.

*wags finger*
Naughty naughty!
It's working isn't it?

I mean, look at all the mean. I like being mean. Not nazi mean of course, just mean. Make people's lives a little bit less happy. That's all.

Need I bring up my oft discredited claim that I am Dick Cheney?

http://untruenews.com/images/dick_cheney_smiles.jpg --My school picture

I'm getting really tired of these forum topics about God and gays. As a whole, the Nationstates community is pretty liberal, and pro-gay arguments swoop down and beat the living bejeezus out of an anti-gay post. I have no problem with that.. being gay myself, I'm on the pro-gay side. :P

However, I do find it offensive when people who I've never met and do not know take a group of people and attack it using either logic that makes no sense, or obscure references from religious texts. For the longest time, African Americans and women were SOL in the US because the majority used the Bible to surpress their rights. My group is now the next scapegoat.


Usually I'd ignore posts like these and just go on my merry way of running my little virtual country, but I saw something that made me stop. A post claiming that homosexuality is unnatural and the gene causing it should be removed. This is like saying everyone with red hair should have generic surgery so they won't exist any more, or people who are lefthanded should suck it up and write with their right hand or face righteous elimination.

As for the classic argument of "homosexuality is a choice," then I ask you this: why in God's name would anyone CHOOSE to enter into one of the most descriminated-against minorities in the current world? Why would someone choose to be ostracized in almost every way, up to the point where society refuses to acknowledge the love they hold for another?


But hey, to all you gay-haters out there, just keep this in mind... if you kill off all the gay people, the world will be forced to have sucky house interiors and tacky and poor-taste clothes. ;)

Because God finds it offensive to treat a man as you would a woman.

Because God finds it offensive to treat a man as you would a woman.
Homosexuals don't treat men as they would a woman. They wouldn't fuck a woman.

From what folks have said so far it is as if God is simply a law giver, and that is that. That may be true for say Judaism and Islam, but not Christianity. There it is a life to be lived, not a law to be kept.

So, at least in mainstream Christinaity it is not that there is a law against homosexuality which God has arbitarily established to frustrate people who enjoy homosexual encounters, but rather it is a lifestyle dominated by the need to define onself as gay, that is one based on one's sexual compulsion. Such a self-definition is limited, lacks the complimentarity of humanity in its wholeness which is both male and female, and is turned in on itself for self-pleasure/gratification. It is a definition of self rooted in a lack of freedom from sexual desire. Not that heterosexuals can't be equally disfunctional, but for homosexuality it seems to be intrinsic. In contrast Christianity's conviction is that God's plan for humanity is based on freedom to choose the very best.

Homosexuals don't treat men as they would a woman. They wouldn't fuck a woman.

But they should [have sexual intercourse with a woman]. It's just not right for two men to be sleeping together ... it's unclean and unnatural. Haven't you read Leviticus?

If a man sleeps with a man as he would with a woman, then both those men should be put to death.

But they should [have sexual intercourse with a woman]. It's just not right for two men to be sleeping together ... it's unclean and unnatural. Haven't you read Leviticus?

If a man sleeps with a man as he would with a woman, then both those men should be put to death.
Yeah. That's why my shirt and pants are prue cotton. No cotton/poly blends for me. I want to go to heaven.

An evangelical puritan religion can only be invented by a sociopath, so it is mental pathology which resulted in the anti-homosexual wickedness among religious people today.

Yeah. That's why my shirt and pants are prue cotton. No cotton/poly blends for me. I want to go to heaven.

You're on the right track. Praise the Lord!

Be weary of women with periods too, they're also unclean and impure.

You're on the right track. Praise the Lord!

Be weary of women with periods too, they're also unclean and impure.
You tell it like it is :p

So, at least in mainstream Christinaity it is not that there is a law against homosexuality which God has arbitarily established to frustrate people who enjoy homosexual encounters, but rather it is a lifestyle dominated by the need to define onself as gay, that is one based on one's sexual compulsion. Such a self-definition is limited, lacks the complimentarity of humanity in its wholeness which is both male and female, and is turned in on itself for self-pleasure/gratification. It is a definition of self rooted in a lack of freedom from sexual desire. Not that heterosexuals can't be equally disfunctional, but for homosexuality it seems to be intrinsic. In contrast Christianity's conviction is that God's plan for humanity is based on freedom to choose the very best.

How many homosexuals seriously define themselves by their sexuality and are compulsive about sex? I would hardly call it intrinsic to be dsyfunctional and have no control over your sexual desires because you're homosexual. It's simply a difference in who you are attracted to. I know far more hetrosexuals who are obsessed with sex and define themselves by how much sex they have. The fact that I'm attracted to both girls and boys affects me only slightly more than the fact that I'm attracted to people with brown hair and brown eyes.

because anuses are the creation of satan. If you commit sodomy, it is like giving yourself to the devil.

[QUOTE=Glitziness]How many homosexuals seriously define themselves by their sexuality and are compulsive about sex?


I thought that was the point of saying you were gay? I mean, if it isn't saying 'I like having sex with men and not women' then what else is it saying?

because anuses are the creation of satan. If you commit sodomy, it is like giving yourself to the devil.
Or you can think of it as poking the devil in his filthy brown eye.

God tells us what things are displeasing to him. If you believe in God and the bible then there is no need to question why he finds certain things displeasing. The fact he finds it displeasing is enough for you to try and not do it.

I thought that was the point of saying you were gay? I mean, if it isn't saying 'I like having sex with men and not women' then what else is it saying?

Defining your sexuality and defining yourself by your sexuality are slightly different. I can tell you my hair is blonde. I'm hardly defined by that fact.

That still doesn't tell me how it's an important of being homosexual to be sex-obsessed....

to reply to the posts' beginning:

christians ban (well, not so much as ban, but dislike) homosexuality because it is "sexually immoral." God defines marriage as the union between a man and a woman

[QUOTE=Glitziness]Defining your sexuality and defining yourself by your sexuality are slightly different. I can tell you my hair is blonde. I'm hardly defined by that fact.
QUOTE]

But if you call yourself gay, and speak of a gay life-style, a gay culture, then you are defining your being human in terms of your sexual proclivity - and demanding that other's accept that self-deifinition, grant you rights to it, and even at times going to the extreme of labelling those who oppose it as evil. That is miles away from talking about having blond hair!

Look, I have a theory which might explain it:

When most of these religions were forming homosexuality was mainly confined to old men fucking young pre-teens. Usually this was only practiced by the rich who had the time to spend on it and the power to get these boy's obedience. Judaism early on was practiced by a small tribe in the desert, and this tribe had a grudge against the rich and decadent of neighboring lands. They didn't want to stoop to their level and besides they couldn't, so they banned homosexuality.

The fact that nowadays homosexuality is practiced mostly between consenting adults makes the ban outdated.

( ( _ _ )
8==dx ( ___ )
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[QUOTE=Glitziness]Defining your sexuality and defining yourself by your sexuality are slightly different. I can tell you my hair is blonde. I'm hardly defined by that fact.
QUOTE]

But if you call yourself gay, and speak of a gay life-style, a gay culture, then you are defining your being human in terms of your sexual proclivity - and demanding that other's accept that self-deifinition, grant you rights to it, and even at times going to the extreme of labelling those who oppose it as evil. That is miles away from talking about having blond hair!

Most of the people who speak of a gay lifestyle and culture are not gay, they are anti-gay. But in any case, most gays don't use homosexuality as their sole self definition any more than you might use straight as your sole definition. It's just one trait, not a whole self.

But if you call yourself gay, and speak of a gay life-style, a gay culture, then you are defining your being human in terms of your sexual proclivity - and demanding that other's accept that self-deifinition, grant you rights to it, and even at times going to the extreme of labelling those who oppose it as evil. That is miles away from talking about having blond hair!

It's no different to calling yourself straight and living the typical straight lifestyle.

Most gays just get along with their life without making a fuss, without making a big show of it, only expecting to have equal rights to straight couples.

And again, not talking about homosexuality making you sex obsessed....

But if you call yourself gay, and speak of a gay life-style, a gay culture, then you are defining your being human in terms of your sexual proclivity - and demanding that other's accept that self-deifinition, grant you rights to it, and even at times going to the extreme of labelling those who oppose it as evil. That is miles away from talking about having blond hair!

Yeah, sounds about fair to me. I think we can agree that blond-haired people have a right to have blonde hair, and that anyone who opposes blonde folk on the basis of their hair colour is pretty odd, eh?

Look, I have a theory which might explain it:

When most of these religions were forming homosexuality was mainly confined to old men fucking young pre-teens. Usually this was only practiced by the rich who had the time to spend on it and the power to get these boy's obedience. Judaism early on was practiced by a small tribe in the desert, and this tribe had a grudge against the rich and decadent of neighboring lands. They didn't want to stoop to their level and besides they couldn't, so they banned homosexuality.

The fact that nowadays homosexuality is practiced mostly between consenting adults makes the ban outdated.

It wasnt old men, it was Greek and later Roman citizens. Back then being a citizen was a status symbol, they were the aristocracy. Being part of the aristocracy gave you the right to enjoy the finer things, one of them being young boys. Yet, the problem with what you are claiming is that we know Paul was a citizen because it was his rights as a citizen that lead to his trip to Rome to be judged by caesar rather than by the local rulers. Therefore your claim is that Paul spoke out against homosexuality because he was against Roman citizens like himself.

It wasnt old men, it was Greek and later Roman citizens. Back then being a citizen was a status symbol, they were the aristocracy. Being part of the aristocracy gave you the right to enjoy the finer things, one of them being young boys. Yet, the problem with what you are claiming is that we know Paul was a citizen because it was his rights as a citizen that lead to his trip to Rome to be judged by caesar rather than by the local rulers. Therefore your claim is that Paul spoke out against homosexuality because he was against Roman citizens like himself.

Paul spoke out against homosexualtiy because of codes against it originating from Judaism, not as a random gesture.

Paul spoke out against homosexualtiy because of codes against it originating from Judaism, not as a random gesture.

Yet those codes come from the times of slavery in Egypt. Not from anywhere near Greece or Rome or even in the same era. Which still makes your point invalid.

God tells us what things are displeasing to him. If you believe in God and the bible then there is no need to question why he finds certain things displeasing. The fact he finds it displeasing is enough for you to try and not do it.

Why then is divorce condoned by Southern Bapitists and the Anglican Church? Why aren't there laws against wearing polyester, which Leviticus also condemned? Why is human slavery illegal? Why are women allowed not to be housewives in their adulthood? Why is the practice of alternative religions such as Buddhism, Islam, Judaism and Neo-Paganism? I seem to remember the bible explicitly speaking against such abominable deviations from the word of Jesus. See you conservatives can moralise till the cows come home, but the fact remains you're a bunch of hypocrites and are wasting your time. Get a life, you're nothing but sexual racists, every bit as bad as the KKK.

Or you can think of it as poking the devil in his filthy brown eye.
I have brown eyes :(

Yet those codes come from the times of slavery in Egypt. Not from anywhere near Greece or Rome or even in the same era. Which still makes your point invalid.

Do you have any evidence the elites of Egypt weren't also often homosexual? Near the end of his reign Akhenaten was involved with his nephew. Anyway, some of Judaism is from before the slavery in Egypt (Abraham, Joseph, etc.)

Christianity speaks against homosexuality because it was in part a political weapon designed that way. The pre-Christian establishment (namely Greece and Rome as mentioned before) practiced homosexuality as a sort of status symbol and luxury or a military motivator. Therefore when Christianity began to gain a foothold in world politics, those in charge as always would attempt to erase all traces of the past regime. Which in part meant declaring (male) homosexuality to be an abomination in the eyes of God. Women back then had little to no power barring a few rare exceptions, so lesbianism was not addressed specifically.

Also, back in those days men were considered to have only a limited amount of sperm they held in reserve throughout their life, and that wasting them by masturbation or homosexuality would drive the human race extinct. Of course today the world is getting damn close to being overpopulated so it's a funny look back at ancient history and beliefs.

[QUOTE=The Filioque]

Most of the people who speak of a gay lifestyle and culture are not gay, they are anti-gay. But in any case, most gays don't use homosexuality as their sole self definition any more than you might use straight as your sole definition. It's just one trait, not a whole self.

Even if you were right, and it isn't used as a sole self definition, in affirming such an aspect as part of your public identity, it is defining yourself against the norm - that is that a gay person is not attracted to the opposite sex as is usually the case (ie 90% or so of the population). In doing so gay people demand equal recognition of their orientation, and demanding rights based on that orientation, eg. marriage and so on. Otherwise why bother to tell other people that you are different when it comes to what happens in the bedroom. In other words its not as benign as you imply.

Why then is divorce condoned by Southern Bapitists and the Anglican Church? Why aren't there laws against wearing polyester, which Leviticus also condemned? Why is human slavery illegal? Why are women allowed not to be housewives in their adulthood? Why is the practice of alternative religions such as Buddhism, Islam, Judaism and Neo-Paganism? I seem to remember the bible explicitly speaking against such abominable deviations from the word of Jesus. See you conservatives can moralise till the cows come home, but the fact remains you're a bunch of hypocrites and are wasting your time. Get a life, you're nothing but sexual racists, every bit as bad as the KKK.

Plus, if God is displeased he can use his ultimate power to alter his own mind and stop being displeased. God has no reason to stay displeased ever.

Do you have any evidence the elites of Egypt weren't also often homosexual? Near the end of his reign Akhenaten was involved with his nephew. Anyway, some of Judaism is from before the slavery in Egypt (Abraham, Joseph, etc.)

There has never been any evidence that there was any widespread accepted homosexuality in Egypt, so why would we come to that conclusion?

Because butt-sex is icky.

I have brown eyes :(
As long as you're not the devil you have nothing to worry about.

But they should [have sexual intercourse with a woman]. It's just not right for two men to be sleeping together ... it's unclean and unnatural. Haven't you read Leviticus?

If a man sleeps with a man as he would with a woman, then both those men should be put to death.

One of the few things I find laughable about Christianity in general is how many of its followers treat many of the old text- Leviticus in particular- like they were Warhammer Codices: They pick and apply the rules they like (Homosexuality is EVIL) and leave the other, much more inconvenient rules out (ie No Shellfish, No Polyblend Fabrics, No Menstruating Women, etc etc.)

It just smacks of selective oppression.

[QUOTE=Vegas-Rex]

Even if you were right, and it isn't used as a sole self definition, in affirming such an aspect as part of your public identity, it is defining yourself against the norm - that is that a gay person is not attracted to the opposite sex as is usually the case (ie 90% or so of the population). In doing so gay people demand equal recognition of their orientation, and demanding rights based on that orientation, eg. marriage and so on. Otherwise why bother to tell other people that you are different when it comes to what happens in the bedroom. In other words its not as benign as you imply.

Most of the time using it as a means to gain rights only happens after others already use it as a means to take away rights. It's not being homosexual that implies a complete fixation, per se. Anyways, since you're using this as the reason that Christianity bans homosexuality I would also like to point out that they don't ban others who define themselves based on their sexuality, like celibate people.

Why then is divorce condoned by Southern Bapitists and the Anglican Church? Why aren't there laws against wearing polyester, which Leviticus also condemned? Why is human slavery illegal? Why are women allowed not to be housewives in their adulthood? Why is the practice of alternative religions such as Buddhism, Islam, Judaism and Neo-Paganism? I seem to remember the bible explicitly speaking against such abominable deviations from the word of Jesus. See you conservatives can moralise till the cows come home, but the fact remains you're a bunch of hypocrites and are wasting your time. Get a life, you're nothing but sexual racists, every bit as bad as the KKK.

Divorce is condoned in the bible in cases of infidelity only. The laws against certain fabrics is no longer valid because Jesus invalidated all of the old laws and that was one of them. Slavery is illegal because its illegal. The bible doesnt say women must be housewives. People practice that stuff because they are not christian. God bless you too.

Even if you were right, and it isn't used as a sole self definition, in affirming such an aspect as part of your public identity, it is defining yourself against the norm - that is that a gay person is not attracted to the opposite sex as is usually the case (ie 90% or so of the population). In doing so gay people demand equal recognition of their orientation, and demanding rights based on that orientation, eg. marriage and so on. Otherwise why bother to tell other people that you are different when it comes to what happens in the bedroom. In other words its not as benign as you imply.

What's your point? You're basically saying that people speak out about being gay so they can ask for equal rights. What is the problem with that? Wouldn't you do the same? All you seem to be saying is that people who are gay say that they are gay. Just like people who are straight say they are straight. Where exactly are you going with this?

And again, blatantly avoiding my questions about you saying that being sex obsessed is a major part of being homosexual....

Yeah, sounds about fair to me. I think we can agree that blond-haired people have a right to have blonde hair, and that anyone who opposes blonde folk on the basis of their hair colour is pretty odd, eh?

Hehe :D

There has never been any evidence that there was any widespread accepted homosexuality in Egypt, so why would we come to that conclusion?

There was, actually, I mentioned it in my post. Most of the ancient world promoted pedophilia among the rich, Greece and Rome are the most quoted examples because they are the most recent with the most preserved records and they were the people early Christians ranted about.

Divorce is condoned in the bible in cases of infidelity only. The laws against certain fabrics is no longer valid because Jesus invalidated all of the old laws and that was one of them. Slavery is illegal because its illegal. The bible doesnt say women must be housewives. People practice that stuff because they are not christian. God bless you too.

Jesus didn't invalidate the old laws. He said he had come to uphold them. And for your information, the Bible is relatively sexist towards women - for example, their are various passages (in the New Testament even) that say women should not speak in Church or hold positions of power etc., etc.

The Bible encourages women to sumbit to men.

why in God's name would anyone CHOOSE to enter into one of the most descriminated-against minorities in the current world? Why would someone choose to be ostracized in almost every way, up to the point where society refuses to acknowledge the love they hold for another?
Your argument suffers from the rational-man error. There are all sorts of self-destructive irrational behaviors that people have. And people like to be victims, to have excuses, to be the under-dog.

I'm not saying that's you, but you need to understand that your argument doesn't hold water.

There was, actually, I mentioned it in my post. Most of the ancient world promoted pedophilia among the rich, Greece and Rome are the most quoted examples because they are the most recent with the most preserved records and they were the people early Christians ranted about.

You mentioned that there appears to be one guy who was gay. How is this evidence of widespread accepted homosexuality?

The laws against certain fabrics is no longer valid because Jesus invalidated all of the old laws and that was one of them.

People practice that stuff because they are not christian. God bless you too.

Many of the old laws are an integral part of Christianity. While Jesus supersedes them, Christians seem to still hold, for example, the ten commandments, in high esteem.

That logic seems to say that Christians should also not ban homosexuality, as those practicing it obviously are part of a denomination that allows it.

Many of the old laws are an integral part of Christianity. While Jesus supersedes them, Christians seem to still hold, for example, the ten commandments, in high esteem.

That logic seems to say that Christians should also not ban homosexuality, as those practicing it obviously are part of a denomination that allows it.

Jesus actually said that he had not come to abolish the laws of the prophets, but to uphold them. So that says something.

You mentioned that there appears to be one guy who was gay. How is this evidence of widespread accepted homosexuality?

That one might not be "widespread acceptance", but as I mentioned before it was there. It may not have exactly been acceptance either, but whether accepted or not homosexuality was widespread in the elites of not only the ancient world but in some circles well into the middle ages. Otherwise how do you explain painting a boy gold for the pope, for example.

Many of the old laws are an integral part of Christianity. While Jesus supersedes them, Christians seem to still hold, for example, the ten commandments, in high esteem.

That logic seems to say that Christians should also not ban homosexuality, as those practicing it obviously are part of a denomination that allows it.

In Matthew 19:18 Jesus tells us to follow the 10 commandments. That is why they are still followed today. I dont understand your logic (or lack thereofe) in the second part of your statement.

Your argument suffers from the rational-man error. There are all sorts of self-destructive irrational behaviors that people have. And people like to be victims, to have excuses, to be the under-dog.

I'm not saying that's you, but you need to understand that your argument doesn't hold water.

Look, the whole "is it a choice or genetic" debate is really pointless. The fact is it's both. I think I heard somewhere that it's slightly more often genes among gays and slightly more often choice among lesbians, but it's really a little of both.

That one might not be "widespread acceptance", but as I mentioned before it was there. It may not have exactly been acceptance either, but whether accepted or not homosexuality was widespread in the elites of not only the ancient world but in some circles well into the middle ages. Otherwise how do you explain painting a boy gold for the pope, for example.

Prove it. Prove homosexuality was accepted in ancient Egypt. I am quite knowledgable about history but have not heard that before, so Im going to have to ask for sources. Show me reliable opinion from respected archaeologists or historians claiming that homosexuality was accepted in ancient Egypt.

In Matthew 19:18 Jesus tells us to follow the 10 commandments. That is why they are still followed today. I dont understand your logic (or lack thereofe) in the second part of your statement.

What I was referring to was your statement that because the people not practicing Christiantiy are not Christian there is no obligation to ban them. What I was saying is that the same argument can be applied to homosexuality.

What I was referring to was your statement that because the people not practicing Christiantiy are not Christian there is no obligation to ban them. What I was saying is that the same argument can be applied to homosexuality.

what do you mean by "ban them"?

Prove it. Prove homosexuality was accepted in ancient Egypt. I am quite knowledgable about history but have not heard that before, so Im going to have to ask for sources. Show me reliable opinion from respected archaeologists or historians claiming that homosexuality was accepted in ancient Egypt.

First, as I said, I don't have to prove "accepted" just practiced.

Second: http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/

what do you mean by "ban them"?

Same way as the ban on homosexuality this entire thread is talking about!

Look, the whole "is it a choice or genetic" debate is really pointless. The fact is it's both. I think I heard somewhere that it's slightly more often genes among gays and slightly more often choice among lesbians, but it's really a little of both.
I think "both" is most correct of the possible one-word answers. It's a really complicated debate, and one that I don't feel like getting into. Anyway, all I was saying is that you can't arguing that people wouldn't choose something that they know would cause them harm, assumes rational behavior, which is something that shouldn't be assumed.

It's a waste of Sperm.

That reminds me of some song... Ah, let me remember... Yes, yes. Monty Python "Every Sperm is Sacred".
Seriously, this saying is bullshit. Just like not letting people use condoms.

First, as I said, I don't have to prove "accepted" just practiced.

Second: http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/

You have still failed to show that homosexuality was practiced by rich people in Egypt whom the israelites hated (despite Moses being raised as a rich person). Youve only shown there was once a guy in egypt who was gay. You need to do better than that to prove your original assertion that this is why christianity didnt like homosexuality because they wanted to distance themselves from the things rich people did. To prove that assertion you have to prove that rich egyptians practiced homosexuality, not that there was once a gay rich guy in egypt. You have to prove this was something identified as being the realm of the rich egyptians

Why do some religions ban homosexuality?

Wait ... wait ... I know this one ...

It's on the tip of my tongue ... rhymes with "spigots" ....

What I was referring to was your statement that because the people not practicing Christiantiy are not Christian there is no obligation to ban them. What I was saying is that the same argument can be applied to homosexuality.

In this, you are correct. We are not interested in what non-christians do. There is no obligation to persecute them. If you arent a christian you can be as gay as you wanna be, we dont care.

You have still failed to show that homosexuality was practiced by rich people in Egypt whom the israelites hated (despite Moses being raised as a rich person). Youve only shown there was once a guy in egypt who was gay. You need to do better than that to prove your original assertion that this is why christianity didnt like homosexuality because they wanted to distance themselves from the things rich people did. To prove that assertion you have to prove that rich egyptians practiced homosexuality, not that there was once a gay rich guy in egypt. You have to prove this was something identified as being the realm of the rich egyptians

*Cough* Canaaite Religion *Cough*

... I recommend the book What the Bible really says about Homosexuality, by Father Daniel A. Helminiak Ph.D. - a Roman Catholic Preist.

In most democracies, politics is and should be held separate from religion. If you think Leviticus is the last word on what you should do with your dick, fine! Follow it yourself! But honestly - what does unnatural mean anyway? Buildings are unnatural, we humans built them for the selfish intent of keeping nice and warm. "Natural" is just a concept, it doesn't mean "good". What is important is how it affects the happiness in the world - and gays being treated like normal human beings would greatly increase it. Your personal distaste in gays is small fries in comparison. These people don't concern you, so leave them to do what they want to do. It's so petty. Don't you have some more important issues to worry about, like ending world hunger? Isn't that christian?

Because Homosexuality deviates from the original purpose of sex. Sex feels good because humans are non-instictual. The first commandment god gave man was to be fruitful and multiply. so sex feels good, so we have alot of it and alot of kids, not, sex feels good because it just does and we should have sex with everything that moves, or doesn't.

In most democracies, politics is and should be held separate from religion. If you think Leviticus is the last word on what you should do with your dick, fine! Follow it yourself! But honestly - what does unnatural mean anyway? Buildings are unnatural, we humans built them for the selfish intent of keeping nice and warm. "Natural" is just a concept, it doesn't mean "good". What is important is how it affects the happiness in the world - and gays being treated like normal human beings would greatly increase it. Your personal distaste in gays is small fries in comparison. These people don't concern you, so leave them to do what they want to do. It's so petty. Don't you have some more important issues to worry about, like ending world hunger? Isn't that christian?

Indeed.

Because Homosexuality deviates from the original purpose of sex. Sex feels good because humans are non-instictual. The first commandment god gave man was to be fruitful and multiply. so sex feels good, so we have alot of it and alot of kids, not, sex feels good because it just does and we should have sex with everything that moves, or doesn't.

Well that's a matter of personal belief. I really don't care what consenting adults do in private.

Because Homosexuality deviates from the original purpose of sex. Sex feels good because humans are non-instictual. The first commandment god gave man was to be fruitful and multiply. so sex feels good, so we have alot of it and alot of kids, not, sex feels good because it just does and we should have sex with everything that moves, or doesn't.

Odd that the "first commandment god gave to man" did not make on the Top 10 chart God carved in stone and gave to Moses.

Well, fictional characters don't have to be consistent.

I'll go see what commandments Doonesbury has for me today.

Oh dear... what're the other bits in leviticus... about not eating shell-fish and not working on the sabbath...

Aren't those on equal footing with the rest of this sillyness?

Aside from the suffering that a gay person might endure due to such religious beliefs I find it a tad hypocritical to be talking about the immorality of one or another sex act when no one seems to be picketing red lobster restaurants...

strangeness..

Because Homosexuality deviates from the original purpose of sex. Sex feels good because humans are non-instictual. The first commandment god gave man was to be fruitful and multiply. so sex feels good, so we have alot of it and alot of kids, not, sex feels good because it just does and we should have sex with everything that moves, or doesn't.


This is incorrect- the sex drive is instinctual, just because we have a well developed fore brain doesn't keep us from getting hungry and getting distracted by our libidos. also- sex in more social animals is only partly for procreative purposes. In bonobos, dolphins, and humans, sex is a social affair to help bond individuals together and is often detached from procreation.

Bonobos especially have the habit of having sex with anything that moves. For them, sex is a handshake!!

Well, we aren't bonobos, but we are social animals who use sex as a form of social communication.

well the way i see it is that if god really doesnt like homosexuals, then why did he make it possible for people to be gay? i mean seriously, he created the universe so if he really doesnt like homosexuals then why didnt he just say "i dont think people of the same gender should have sex so i will make it so that no one wants to do it". So I'm guessing that god doesnt care whether you are gay or straight.

well the way i see it is that if god really doesnt like homosexuals, then why did he make it possible for people to be gay? i mean seriously, he created the universe so if he really doesnt like homosexuals then why didnt he just say "i dont think people of the same gender should have sex so i will make it so that no one wants to do it". So I'm guessing that god doesnt care whether you are gay or straight.

By this reasoning, why does God allow evil to exist etc etc etc?

This is something that theologans (sp?) have been grapling with for a long long time. Of course, if God were not benevolent or omnipotent or omnicient, then God could either not care about(not benevolent), not be able to prevent, (not omnipotent), or not know of (not omnicient) the existance of evil.

*grin* go figure

Removing Moderator mistake. My apologies to anyone who read this. I misattributed a quote of a quote.


~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/modedit.jpg Removing false accusation that has been deleted elsewhere.
:confused:
http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8520791&postcount=71
Somebody named OMG yoorgai did post that...

:confused:
http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8520791&postcount=71
Somebody named OMG yoorgai did post that...

Yeah... What the fuck?

Wow. My apologies. I surely misread that. Warning rescinded.

Prior post will be edited to indicate moderator mistake. Again, my apologies.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

I was just a little more than irked by something mentioned early in this thread. Well, all throughout this thread, but one thing stuck out- justifying the claim of homosexuality being immoral because it is a 'waste of sperm.'

Since when do Christians care about the little things? They didn't seem to during the Inquisition, or when ancient religions and even eastern practices in not only religion but medicine were being suppressed in the excuse of biblical justice, but that's neither here nor there to discuss.

The thing about sperm is that it is living, but it is a very small but plentiful walk of life, much like insects and other small animals that are abundant but with short life. Is it wrong to swat a mosquito? Is it so wicked to uproot a weed so that other plants may grow? Then why is it so terrible to sacrifice such small parts of your body that had an extreme unlikelihood of fertilizing an egg anyway in exchange for human bliss? Isn't a cell's main purpose to promote the well-being of the body? In sex, no matter what the partner, sperm is best used when it brings the pleasure of two people at once.

And more! We criple the grass below our feet with every step on this earth! Does this make us evil creatures? Possibly in a very minute sense, but sowing a few seeds now and then would earn you that privelage for years of your life.

I believe that something is only wrong if it harms another or yourself. Now, I will neither confirm or deny what my own sexuality is, but if my sexual desires reached only towards those of the same gender, I would only suppress my feelings (Something conservatives are pretty good at pushing) and thus hurt myself.

And exactly why do we classify ourselves by genders in the first place? Any one of these ridiculous laws against gay marriage could be countered by a partner choosing simply to change their sex. But wait! Aren't they the same person? Suppose I married to a heterosexual spouse, and they wished to change genders. Are we suddenly an illegitimate couple, based only on a slight physical configuration? And hermaphrodites- legally, aren't they outlawed from any case of marriage whatsoever? Testosterone and Estrogen are not the most stable things to base religion on, much less laws.

The Great Spirit, if It truely is omnipotent (As One would have to be to create Itself), created life for reasons beyond our human comprehension, so our only way of understanding It is by experiencing and learning life with an open mind, and to allow others the same privelege, for as long as we exist, we are all a part and aspect of the Deity in our own right. To defy such a practice is to in truth only hurt yourself...

Oh dear... what're the other bits in leviticus... about not eating shell-fish and not working on the sabbath...

Aren't those on equal footing with the rest of this sillyness?


No, see Hebrews for a more thourgh explination

well the way i see it is that if god really doesnt like homosexuals, then why did he make it possible for people to be gay? i mean seriously, he created the universe so if he really doesnt like homosexuals then why didnt he just say "i dont think people of the same gender should have sex so i will make it so that no one wants to do it". So I'm guessing that god doesnt care whether you are gay or straight.

By that logic, you can excuse any sin because "God made me capabile of it, ergo its his fault". So its his fault we are capabile of stealing killing etc?