NationStates Jolt Archive

Don't join the Army and then claim afterwards you're a conscientious objector - because no one will believe you.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/24/hinzman-050324.html

TORONTO - An immigration panel in Toronto has denied refugee status to a former paratrooper who fled the United States to evade the war in Iraq.

The Immigration and Refugee Board members said Thursday that Jeremy Hinzman, 26, hadn't convinced them that he would be persecuted if he returned to his native land.


Jeremy Hinzman, shown in July 2004, deserted the U.S. military because he felt the war in Iraq was illegal. ( CP file photo)
Hinzman faces a court martial if he goes back and could be sentenced to five years in jail as a deserter.

The board also denied asylum to Hinzman's wife and pre-school son.

"Removal to the U.S. would not subject them personally to a risk to their lives or to a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment," the board said in a statement.


FROM DEC. 7, 2004: U.S. army deserter seeking refugee status in Canada

"There are no substantial grounds to believe that their removal to the U.S. will subject them personally to a danger of torture."

Hinzman's lawyer, Jeffry House, said he would ask the Federal Court to review the decision.

"It's a disappointing decision," House told CBC Newsworld. "We don't believe that people should be imprisoned for doing what they believe is illegal."

Hinzman is seen as a deserter by the American military, but his supporters say he is a war resister who should be given refugee status in Canada.

He enlisted in the U.S. army three years ago as a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division. He deserted last year, rather than go to Iraq, and moved to Canada with his family.

During a three-day hearing before the immigration board in December, Hinzman said he sought refugee status because he opposed the war in Iraq on moral grounds and thought the U.S. invasion violated international human rights.

The panel decided that Hinzman was not a conscientious objector.

bloody conchies, if you don’t want to fight for your country don’t enlist, and if you don’t want to defend your countries ideology when conscription is needed(that’s a different matter to Iraq mind I mean ww2 like) then you should be fighting or living on the other side. American should do what we do and shoot them, i think its along with being a convicted traitor to parliament, the only crime you can be killed for over here.

I have no respect for cowards

Gee maybe because he was sent to afghanistan once and it was denied there as well. The man joined the army in 2000 for a four year hitch so send him back and put his butt in jail for a year. :)

The war is illegal and resisting it should be completely legitimate, thus I'd expect Canada to give refugee status to those who'd otherwise end up in jail for refusing to partake in a crime by the US government.

Ein Deutscher']The war is illegal and resisting it should be completely legitimate, thus I'd expect Canada to give refugee status to those who'd otherwise end up in jail for refusing to partake in a crime by the US government.

If you read the story, you'll notice that Canada is not going to give refugee status to those who first join the Army, and then later when the Army wants to send them to war, they suddenly claim to be conscientious objectors.

Is there some part of that flawed logic that you find logical? That someone would join a unit like the 82nd Airborne, and train to be a killer, and then suddenly, when it becomes real, and not training, jump up and say, "wait a minute, I thought this was all just playing around"

He knew the job was dangerous when he took it. It's not some secret clause in the contract.

Well if anything happens to him besides basic jailtimes and a discharge from the military, the Canadians will be forced to reconsider their stance on this.

If you read the story, you'll notice that Canada is not going to give refugee status to those who first join the Army, and then later when the Army wants to send them to war, they suddenly claim to be conscientious objectors.

Is there some part of that flawed logic that you find logical? That someone would join a unit like the 82nd Airborne, and train to be a killer, and then suddenly, when it becomes real, and not training, jump up and say, "wait a minute, I thought this was all just playing around"

He knew the job was dangerous when he took it. It's not some secret clause in the contract.


Theres is also the question as to the benfits recieved while enlisted-for him and his family. Even before you get to the honor and oath of enlisting, he defaulted on his end of the contract at the very least.

Well if anything happens to him besides basic jailtimes and a discharge from the military, the Canadians will be forced to reconsider their stance on this.

Well, we haven't shot a deserter since WW II. I would suppose that he could get a long time at Leavenworth. Sounds extremely likely.

It would be different if he was a draft dodger - you know, someone who had not initially volunteered to join the military. A person like that could claim they were a conscientious objector. But for a military volunteer to suddenly claim that - it doesn't have the ring of truth.

Theres is also the question as to the benfits recieved while enlisted-for him and his family. Even before you get to the honor and oath of enlisting, he defaulted on his end of the contract at the very least.

He was airborne qualified. That means he graduated from airborne school. I went to the same school. I seem to recall singing songs like, "I want to be an Airborne Ranger, I want to live a life of danger..."

I guess he thought the songs were just make-believe.

I believe that the war in Iraq was wrong, but:
Soldiers have always been pawns of the political will of governments.
Therefore, regardless of how this man viewed the war, assuming that we believe his case 100%, by joining the army he forfeited his right to have an independent say. He exchanged his personal freedom for the duty and privelege of serving in the armed forces.
A true objector would never have joined the army in the first place.

He was airborne qualified. That means he graduated from airborne school. I went to the same school. I seem to recall singing songs like, "I want to be an Airborne Ranger, I want to live a life of danger..."

I guess he thought the songs were just make-believe.


Its a shame-it seems he had a change of heart. Maybe he just wanted all the benefits of service, without fulfilling his commitment.

I believe that the war in Iraq was wrong, but:
Soldiers have always been pawns of the political will of governments.
Therefore, regardless of how this man viewed the war, assuming that we believe his case 100%, by joining the army he forfeited his right to have an independent say. He exchanged his personal freedom for the duty and privelege of serving in the armed forces.
A true objector would never have joined the army in the first place.

Give the man a prize!

I've had all sorts of problems with this war from the get-go, but I have no sympathy for people like this.

He joined, he swore an oath. He can't pick and choose what war he'll fight in and when. You can't just suddenly decide to be a conscientious objector, you have to declare before your unit gets called up, not after.

I was living in Hawaii when Desert Storm happened. There was a Marine who, when his unit was being loaded aboard a transport to go to Kuwait, sat down on the tarmac, refused to board the transport, and declared himself a conscientious objector. The local anti-war movement took him as their poster child and declared him a hero. It was disgusting. First of all, the guy joined the f-ing Marines! They're the first guys to hit the hot spots, why join if you don't expect to have to fight? They ended up giving him an administrative discharge rather than court martial him, which I think was the wrong decision.

Deserters are great people! They show that they have a much better grasp of reality than their superiors! I think people should have the right to dersert if they have remorse about what they do!

I've had all sorts of problems with this war from the get-go, but I have no sympathy for people like this.

He joined, he swore an oath. He can't pick and choose what war he'll fight in and when. You can't just suddenly decide to be a conscientious objector, you have to declare before your unit gets called up, not after.

I was living in Hawaii when Desert Storm happened. There was a Marine who, when his unit was being loaded aboard a transport to go to Kuwait, sat down on the tarmac, refused to board the transport, and declared himself a conscientious objector. The local anti-war movement took him as their poster child and declared him a hero. It was disgusting. First of all, the guy joined the f-ing Marines! They're the first guys to hit the hot spots, why join if you don't expect to have to fight? They ended up giving him an administrative discharge rather than court martial him, which I think was the wrong decision.

They should have made an example of him. They could add it to recruitment literature- "Dont bother joining if you're going to be a douche-bag". I bet the guys in his unit wanted to spit on the bastard.

Here's the oath. They make you say it out loud, and then you sign it. In front of witnesses:

I, <state your name>, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Not a secret. Bush orders you to go to Iraq - that's where you go, unless you can prove the order is illegal under US law.

Ein Deutscher']The war is illegal and resisting it should be completely legitimate, thus I'd expect Canada to give refugee status to those who'd otherwise end up in jail for refusing to partake in a crime by the US government.

Oh, no - the war is completely legal. It's just morally bankrupt and ethically reprehensible.

bloody conchies, if you don’t want to fight for your country don’t enlist, and if you don’t want to defend your countries ideology when conscription is needed(that’s a different matter to Iraq mind I mean ww2 like) then you should be fighting or living on the other side. American should do what we do and shoot them, i think its along with being a convicted traitor to parliament, the only crime you can be killed for over here.

I have no respect for cowards
Damn right!

Ein Deutscher']The war is illegal and resisting it should be completely legitimate, thus I'd expect Canada to give refugee status to those who'd otherwise end up in jail for refusing to partake in a crime by the US government.

Can't you read?

They just denied it. For once, I congratulate Canada for doing this. Send him back down here.

Could be worse! He could face the death penalty. Desertion in a time of war and all but 5 years in jail is enough.

Deserters are great people! They show that they have a much better grasp of reality than their superiors! I think people should have the right to dersert if they have remorse about what they do!

Deserters lack that one element of human moral excellence: integrity. Once you have made such a grave commitment, agreeing to put your life on the line for the govt., and for your fellow soldiers, you have no right to recant.

Deserters lack that one element of human moral excellence: integrity. Once you have made such a grave commitment, agreeing to put your life on the line for the govt., and for your fellow soldiers, you have no right to recant.

LOL. The government? The 'fellow' soldiers? Depending on what those are doing, one has very good reasons to desert. Seriously. :)

Deserting is justified under certain conditions, really.

LOL. The government? The 'fellow' soldiers? Depending on what those are doing, one has very good reasons to desert. Seriously. :)

Deserting is justified under certain conditions, really.

Deserting is NEVER justified under any condition. You can refuse to go but then you have to accept the consequences of refusing it.

LOL. The government? The 'fellow' soldiers? Depending on what those are doing, one has very good reasons to desert. Seriously. :)

Deserting is justified under certain conditions, really.

Sure, but do you really think this qualifies? I would never put myself in the situation of being a pawn to W, and neither would most people I know. He made his bed, he needs to lie in it.
It isn't like he was being asked to kill babies or burn Jews. Regardless of how misguided the political ideology behind the war was, such debates were not his concern once he made that choice.
Someone drafted into the Vietnam war would be a different story.

Deserters are great people! They show that they have a much better grasp of reality than their superiors! I think people should have the right to dersert if they have remorse about what they do!
Deserters are men without honor, which is just about the worst possible insult I am capable of bestowing. I rank them just a step above pedophiles.

Deserters are men without honor, which is just about the worst possible insult I am capable of bestowing. I rank them just a step above pedophiles.

It depends if they volunteered or were drafted. Someone drafted never made an initial commitment, so they can't have broken their word.

I find it funny how all of you can call this guy a coward. When was the last time you were faced with going to war?

Yeah, maybe he should have though harder about joining the army, but I don't blame him for refusing to do something he doesn't want to. He obviously doesn't want to kill or get killed for a cause he doesn't believe in. It's not a crime to change your view or opinion on something, we do it all the time.

I find it funny how all of you can call this guy a coward. When was the last time you were faced with going to war?

Yeah, maybe he should have though harder about joining the army, but I don't blame him for refusing to do something he doesn't want to. He obviously doesn't want to kill or get killed for a cause he doesn't believe in. It's not a crime to change your view or opinion on something, we do it all the time.

He took the oath. He went to Afghanistan. He expected the army to pay for his university education.
Then he broke his contract, and now he'll face some jail time. Having the moral courage to refuse to go to war but not having the moral courage to face the consequences of breaking your word adds up to not having moral courage, in my humble opinion.*
*Perhaps I'm not as humble as I should be.

If you read the story, you'll notice that Canada is not going to give refugee status to those who first join the Army, and then later when the Army wants to send them to war, they suddenly claim to be conscientious objectors.

Is there some part of that flawed logic that you find logical? That someone would join a unit like the 82nd Airborne, and train to be a killer, and then suddenly, when it becomes real, and not training, jump up and say, "wait a minute, I thought this was all just playing around"

He knew the job was dangerous when he took it. It's not some secret clause in the contract.


YOu flee to canada when you get drafted not when the contract you signed with the USA army is no longer meeting your life goals and you decide not to honor it.

Send the knucklehead back...

I find it funny how all of you can call this guy a coward. When was the last time you were faced with going to war?

Yeah, maybe he should have though harder about joining the army, but I don't blame him for refusing to do something he doesn't want to. He obviously doesn't want to kill or get killed for a cause he doesn't believe in. It's not a crime to change your view or opinion on something, we do it all the time.

if he was drafted against his will, i would support his case. He was just called up, not drafted, therefore he has NO case.

I find it funny how all of you can call this guy a coward. When was the last time you were faced with going to war?

If I was in the military, I would face going to war everyday. If I got called up, I would say goodbye to my loved ones and board that plane/transport and go without question. This is what people in the military do. I am speaking from the experience of having loved ones go off to war.

Yeah, maybe he should have though harder about joining the army, but I don't blame him for refusing to do something he doesn't want to. He obviously doesn't want to kill or get killed for a cause he doesn't believe in. It's not a crime to change your view or opinion on something, we do it all the time.

If your in the military, you do as your told unless you can prove 100% without a doubt that the order given to you that you disobeyed is illegal.

He took the oath. He went to Afghanistan. He expected the army to pay for his university education.
Then he broke his contract, and now he'll face some jail time. Having the moral courage to refuse to go to war but not having the moral courage to face the consequences of breaking your word adds up to not having moral courage, in my humble opinion.*
*Perhaps I'm not as humble as I should be.

Yeah, he went to Afghanistan and realized he didn't agree with it. I don't blame him, I would feel the same.

Don't tell me you've never broken your word before.

Ein Deutscher']The war is illegal and resisting it should be completely legitimate, thus I'd expect Canada to give refugee status to those who'd otherwise end up in jail for refusing to partake in a crime by the US government.


The war is not illegal in the United States. He can and should be punished. Jail time would be apropriate.

If I was in the military, I would face going to war everyday. If I got called up, I would say goodbye to my loved ones and board that plane/transport and go without question. This is what people in the military do. I am speaking from the experience of having loved ones go off to war.

Ah, but you see there are some human beings out there that are not mindless robots.

I, for one, never do anything without question. If someone tells me to jump, I ask why. If someone asked me to prepare to be in combat, getting shot at and shooting people, I would definitely ask why.

Yeah, he went to Afghanistan and realized he didn't agree with it. I don't blame him, I would feel the same.

Don't tell me you've never broken your word before.

Break your word in the military and you get punished for it. Especially if you violate the oath you swore.

This guy was ordered to fight and he deserted! He's lucky he's looking at 5 years and not the death penalty.

The war is not illegal in the United States. He can and should be punished. Jail time would be apropriate.

I agree! Send this punk up the river.

Break your word in the military and you get punished for it. Especially if you violate the oath you swore.

This guy was ordered to fight and he deserted! He's lucky he's looking at 5 years and not the death penalty.

Death penalty can only get applied in a declared war I belive.

His actions would have to be proven to have caused the deaths of others.....

Ah, but you see there are some human beings out there that are not mindless robots.

Mindless robots? People in the military are fully capable of independent thought. However, they do know what duty is. They know what honor is. They also know that their country depends on them. This guy violated Duty and honor by deserting.

And Zarbia, you just insulted my father, uncle (deseased), 2 cousins, and half my father side of the family. You also insulted my mother too as well as my Brother-in-law.

I, for one, never do anything without question. If someone tells me to jump, I ask why. If someone asked me to prepare to be in combat, getting shot at and shooting people, I would definitely ask why.

If your in the military, you don't have the right to ask why. You ask how high? If someone told you to prepare to be in combat, you prepare to be in combat. No questions. If you in the military, you don't have the luxary of questions unless your in a position to ask them and odds are, you won't be.

It depends if they volunteered or were drafted. Someone drafted never made an initial commitment, so they can't have broken their word.
I can't speak for other countries, but in the US, should there ever be a draft again, part of the responsibility of being a citizen is being willing to serve in the armed forces when called upon. It's not optional. With the all-volunteer military, it's even less honorable ( if such a thing is possible ) to desert and simultaneously renig on your contract.

Death penalty can only get applied in a declared war I belive.

His actions would have to be proven to have caused the deaths of others.....

You do have a point and I'll concede it due to the fact that this isn't a declared war but war was authorized so its blurry but I will concede the point to you.

Prison time is his due and it is what he will receive. Soldiers in a volunteer army are not pawns, they are well aware of what they are getting into, they swear an oath and by God they should live up to it. Anyone who swears and oath and then breaks it is a dog who deserves no respect.

You do have a point and I'll concede it due to the fact that this isn't a declared war but war was authorized so its blurry but I will concede the point to you.

It's hard to say and I have to admit to pretty much guessing so you don't have to concede anything. ;)

Eutrusca is a vet and an officer, maybe he knows?

It's hard to say and I have to admit to pretty much guessing so you don't have to concede anything. ;)

Eutrusca is a vet and an officer, maybe he knows?

Meh, if I want to know, I can call my dad who is currently serving as an officer in the USAFR.

Ah, but you see there are some human beings out there that are not mindless robots.

I, for one, never do anything without question. If someone tells me to jump, I ask why. If someone asked me to prepare to be in combat, getting shot at and shooting people, I would definitely ask why.
I deeply resent the implication that US military personnel, including apparently me, are "mindless robots." One of the best things going for America in her military forces is the individual initiative and creativity of the individual soldier. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you obviously know nothing about how the US military works, especially now, in the type of conflicts in which we are involved.

Meh, if I want to know, I can call my dad who is currently serving as an officer in the USAFR.

Hey! If he knows sure!

Was your dad called up?

It's hard to say and I have to admit to pretty much guessing so you don't have to concede anything. ;)

Eutrusca is a vet and an officer, maybe he knows?
Although the death penalty is still in the Uniform Code of Military Justice ( UCMJ ) for "desertion in the face of the enemy" and "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" ( if I remember my UCMJ classes ), I seriously doubt it will ever be used again. I suppose it would have to be something truly henious, such as turning your weapon on your fellow soldiers during the heat of battle.

I deeply resent the implication that US military personnel, including apparently me, are "mindless robots." One of the best things going for America in her military forces is the individual initiative and creativity of the individual soldier. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you obviously know nothing about how the US military works, especially now, in the type of conflicts in which we are involved.

I wasn't calling all military personnel robots. I was calling anyone in the world who does something that they don't like mindless robots.

I'm not talking about taking out the trash or cleaning dishes. If you were faced with something like killing people or going to war or something of the sort.

Don't jump to conclusions.

Sorry for the crappy post, I gotta go for now.

Yeah, he went to Afghanistan and realized he didn't agree with it. I don't blame him, I would feel the same.

Don't tell me you've never broken your word before.

Sure, I have broken my word, but never in a way that endangered the life of fellow humans who are depending on my contribution to the team. He did. He was in a position where life and death were at stake and he chose to run. I do not for one second believe he did this out of principle, he was scared, plain and simple.

Sure, I have broken my word, but never in a way that endangered the life of fellow humans who are depending on my contribution to the team. He did. He was in a position where life and death were at stake and he chose to run. I do not for one second believe he did this out of principle, he was scared, plain and simple.
Nothing wrong with being scared. I've been scared shitless myself several times. It's what you do when you're scared that counts.

I deeply resent the implication that US military personnel, including apparently me, are "mindless robots." One of the best things going for America in her military forces is the individual initiative and creativity of the individual soldier. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you obviously know nothing about how the US military works, especially now, in the type of conflicts in which we are involved.

Here here Eutrusca! Tell it like it is my friend.

Hey! If he knows sure!

Was your dad called up?

Just got back last tuesday. Home again then he goes back for the last time!

the guy was a dumbass for signing up in the first place, but maybe he thought that he'd be sent to fight in afganistan, where there is some justification for going, not in iraq where there is not. Responding to an actual threat is a lot different from being W's oil collection agent.

Or maybe he signed up for college, got an education, and figured out that (as much of the rest of the world knows) if he ends up actually fighting in a war with the current administration in charge then he'd be on the wrong side. If one were to step outside the cultural/society bubble that is America one might notice that the vast majority of the world doesnt think the good ol' U S of A is actually "good". More like the opposite, in fact. Especially with W in power.

Todorov writes: "To impose freedom on others is to oppress them; to force equality on them is to treat them as inferior; to spread democracy through the barrel of a gun is to undermine it. The means destroy the ends."

I dont blame the guy at all for not wanting to go to iraq. And step inside his shoes for a minute and think how difficult a decision it must have been. You want an education, but the only clear path to it is to sign up, give your oath, and prepare for war. Then you find out that the war's focus has changed, and the reasons for the new war are completely unjustified; you'd be killing innocent people that shouldnt be your enemy at all, in a country you shouldnt be in, for reasons that are such blatently obvious lies that a child could see through them. The enemy force is eventually even labelled 'insurgents' to remove any association with the names they have known in other times/places, such as 'freedom fighters' or 'rebel forces' or 'the resistance'.

So. Do you take the easy path and stay and do as your oath spelled out, go to war in the company of your friends and squadmates, even though you know it is a morally despicable war being fought for the wrong reasons? War is fairly safe these days, when its all done by remote control. You have pretty decent chances of coming back alive, though it may not feel like it at the time.

Or do you take the moral high ground and do what you believe in, even though it means sacrificing all your training, your education, your lifestyle, your career, etc, all so you can pick up and move to a different country in protest of the idiocy proposed by your government? Its a safer choice, physically. But its pretty harsh mentally, to do something that is despised by everyone you know, to willingly take on the label on coward, to abandon everything and everyone you know, simply to avoid doing something you believe is completely and utterly wrong.

Its a hard decision, made even harder by the hindsight that he should never have signed up in the first place. A really hard decision.

I wasn't calling all military personnel robots. I was calling anyone in the world who does something that they don't like mindless robots.

Sorry dude but in the military, you get no option. You do as your told and that's that.

I'm not talking about taking out the trash or cleaning dishes. If you were faced with something like killing people or going to war or something of the sort.

If your in the military, good chance that you'll be in that situation. That is why you should think before joining because once you do, that's it.

So if you disobey orders from the military and desert, you get court-martialed. Makes sense. But on the other extreme, if you obey orders from the military and end up in a situation similar to Abu Ghraib or My Lai... you get court-martialed anyways.

Deserters are men without honor, which is just about the worst possible insult I am capable of bestowing. I rank them just a step above pedophiles.

Honor? To hell with honor if your military demands actions from you that are abominable. Of course, it's also a difference if you were drafted or not, but deserting is still justified under specific conditions...

Nothing wrong with being scared. I've been scared shitless myself several times. It's what you do when you're scared that counts.

Fear, my friend Eutrusca, is the greatest virtue of a soldier. :D

Honor? To hell with honor if your military demands actions from you that are abominable. Of course, it's also a difference if you were drafted or not, but deserting is still justified under specific conditions...

Desertion is never justified under any condition.

Fear, my friend Eutrusca, is the greatest virtue of a soldier. :D

He who ain't scared of going into battle are either dead or stupid.

Nothing wrong with being scared. I've been scared shitless myself several times. It's what you do when you're scared that counts.

That is the truth. I once read a book about Patton's 4th Armored. A guy mentioned that when he was deployed, he was scared at the idea. He wrote about another guy who was considered the best soldier in the division. In the middle of a firefight, he remembered there was a flash and he saw the guy on top of his tank firing the 50s. He looked scared out of his wits. He wrote at that point he knew he and the other guy would survive the war. They did.

Tangent. I know! ;)

Desertion is never justified under any condition.
I guess those who deserted the Iraqi army (since they were completely without chance of winning) or the German Wehrmacht, all should be court-martialed...

I think it just depends on who it benefits, if someone deserts. If it benefits the US, then the deserter is of course right. If it weakens the US (as insignificant as a single soldier may be), it is a capital crime...

Desertion is never justified under any condition.

Heh. Any condition?

Ein Deutscher']I guess those who deserted the Iraqi army (since they were completely without chance of winning) or the German Wehrmacht, all should be court-martialed...

I think it just depends on who it benefits, if someone deserts. If it benefits the US, then the deserter is of course right. If it weakens the US (as insignificant as a single soldier may be), it is a capital crime...

Heh, good point there. People should be considering such cases when they are making generalizations. :)

Ein Deutscher']I guess those who deserted the Iraqi army (since they were completely without chance of winning) or the German Wehrmacht, all should be court-martialed...

They should've been but then, it depends on their military regulations. And those that did desert normally surrendered to the US Military thus they were accorded full Geneva Protections.

I think it just depends on who it benefits, if someone deserts. If it benefits the US, then the deserter is of course right. If it weakens the US (as insignificant as a single soldier may be), it is a capital crime...

If you desert, no matter the nation, you are punished. The level of punishment varies among the nations.

Heh. Any condition?

Any! I can sympathize but I have no respect for people that desert their posts.

They should've been but then, it depends on their military regulations. And those that did desert normally surrendered to the US Military thus they were accorded full Geneva Protections.



If you desert, no matter the nation, you are punished. The level of punishment varies among the nations.
Well that's hypocritical though. I've so often heard that German Wehrmacht soldiers should have deserted if they would not have wanted to be trialed as criminals...

Ein Deutscher']I guess those who deserted the Iraqi army (since they were completely without chance of winning) or the German Wehrmacht, all should be court-martialed...

I think it just depends on who it benefits, if someone deserts. If it benefits the US, then the deserter is of course right. If it weakens the US (as insignificant as a single soldier may be), it is a capital crime...
Yeah, we'll let the Iraqi government get right on it. And there's a difference between deserting and surrendering.

I feel sorry for you, Corneliu. If I was involved in something that I definitely did not agree with then there is nothing stopping me from getting the fuck out of there.

What about Nazi's that deserted? Yep, those damn Nazi's should have shut up and done their duties. I mean, who else is going to work at the concentration camps and slaughter innocent people?

Although it's an exaggerated example, I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Well if anything happens to him besides basic jailtimes and a discharge from the military, the Canadians will be forced to reconsider their stance on this.
You are right there. If the US ends up executing this young man (as suggested by some posters here awhile back), then Canada would have difficulty returning any future deserters.

You are right there. If the US ends up executing this young man (as suggested by some posters here awhile back), then Canada would have difficulty returning any future deserters.

Nobody is going to execute him. As Eutrusca pointed out, just about the only way for that to happen is if he turned his weapon on his fellow soldiers.

The people wouldn't go for that and it would drastically drop recruitment numbers.

He will probably get jail time and a dishonorable.

Ein Deutscher']Well that's hypocritical though. I've so often heard that German Wehrmacht soldiers should have deserted if they would not have wanted to be trialed as criminals...

Your from germany right? That probably has something to do with it. Besides, many German soldiers fled and surrendered to the US/British Forces!

I feel sorry for you, Corneliu. If I was involved in something that I definitely did not agree with then there is nothing stopping me from getting the fuck out of there.

If I'm in the military and I am ordered to fight in a war that I don't agree with, I'd still go because that is what I'm ordered to do. Its also like that in any business. If you boss tells you to do something and you say no I don't agree with it, odds are you'll get canned.

What about Nazi's that deserted? Yep, those damn Nazi's should have shut up and done their duties. I mean, who else is going to work at the concentration camps and slaughter innocent people?

I'm not German but most germans that fled battle, surrendered to the US/British Forces.

Although it's an exaggerated example, I hope you understand what I'm saying.

The people that ran those were the SS. They didn't flee unless you have info that I don't seem to have.

Corneliu - I've read a lot of your posts, what I don't seem to understand is why are you not a member of the armed forces? Since you seem to support them in every way , shape and form, why aren't you in the army? Are you a coward?

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but it doesn't mention it in the article. Canada will except NO American people who wish to avoid going to the war, enlisted or no. This includes if a draft is instated (which would be inevitable if the US opens another front in somewhere like Syria or N. Korea). The USA, Canada, and the United Kingdom have all signed an agreement called the Smart Border Policy, which bars any deserters, draft dodgers or the like from fleeing to the involved nation.

Corneliu - I've read a lot of your posts, what I don't seem to understand is why are you not a member of the armed forces? Since you seem to support them in every way , shape and form, why aren't you in the army? Are you a coward?

Nope. I just don't want to put up with the stupidity of some of our generals. I've spent 22 years around the military and also I don't follow orders very well. I would never make it through AF Basic Training.

I support our armed forces because I've spent years around them and I know who I owe my freedom too. I know what they go through to be the best. Frankly, I know that I would never cut it but I do support them. Just like I support the OFFICE of the President.

As for being a coward, I'm anything but. I love a fight but I pick and choose my fights. I just know that I would never cut it in the military because of 1) my mouth and 2) my inability to follow orders. To be honest, I probably could've gotten into the AFA but I turned it down because I know I wouldn't be able to cut it.

As for being a coward, I'm anything but. I love a fight but I pick and choose my fights. I just know that I would never cut it in the military because of 1) my mouth and 2) my inability to follow orders. To be honest, I probably could've gotten into the AFA but I turned it down because I know I wouldn't be able to cut it.

Few words... Actions speak louder than words.. :rolleyes:

Few words... Actions speak louder than words.. :rolleyes:

I Just know I won't be able to make it through basic training, regardless of branch.

I Just know I won't be able to make it through basic training, regardless of branch.

So then you should no longer give your opinion on some thing you are unable to do yourself? Because you might be this dude who fled given what you've said...that's what I hear you saying.. you couldn't cut it, either could he. Nice to have opinions when we never are in the position.

So then you should no longer give your opinion on some thing you are unable to do yourself? Because you might be this dude who fled given what you've said...that's what I hear you saying.. you couldn't cut it, either could he. Nice to have opinions when we never are in the position.

Big difference. I know what duty and honor is. I was brought up with it. I was brought up to do whatever you can to help your country. With me? That isn't in the military however, if I was in the military, I wouldn't shrink from my duties and flee to Canada. I would face the enemy head on because that is what a soldier does.

Big difference. I know what duty and honor is.

Is it honorable to fight an unjust war, to kill innocent civilians, just so your boss can make an extra buck at your expense?

Is it honorable to fight an unjust war, to kill innocent civilians, just so your boss can make an extra buck at your expense?

1) I don't think this is an unjust war

2) Civilians die in war regardless of how hard you try to prevent it

However, if I felt that this was an unjust war, I STILL go fight because that is what I, as a member of the military, was ordered to do.

By that justification, the Holocaust was honorable. If it was your orders to carry out those acts, would you still do it?

By that justification, the Holocaust was honorable. If it was your orders to carry out those acts, would you still do it?

The holocaust was anything but honorable. That was genocide and that I don't tolerate.

To Hitler it was perfectly okay. What you are trying to argue is a matter of complete opinion. You say that its just and honorable, Hitler would have said the same about the extermination of the Jews (not trying to compare you to Hitler by any means). These soldiers that fled obviously did not feel that this was a war worth fighting, I don't think it had anything to do with the danger. Much like the Veitnam conflict.

To Hitler it was perfectly okay. What you are trying to argue is a matter of complete opinion. You say that its just and honorable, Hitler would have said the same about the extermination of the Jews (not trying to compare you to Hitler by any means). These soldiers that fled obviously did not feel that this was a war worth fighting, I don't think it had anything to do with the danger. Much like the Veitnam conflict.

There's a very very big difference between Hitler's order to kill the Jews and Bush's order to send a soldier into Iraq.

The order to kill innocent people intentionally violates every code of military warfare. If this happens, the soldiers are obligated to object even knowing the consequences. In the US, you are obligated to refuse such an order because you will be held liable for following it just like the person giving the order will be held liable for ordering it.

Being ordered to go to Iraq is not illegal. A Commander can order his forces into combat. That is perfectly legal. This soldier fled the country instead of following his orders. Since he didn't follow a lawful order, he should be punished for it and he will be.

This is a war where any one can be considered "the enemy". We're acting as the Iraqi Thought Police, getting rid of anyone suspected of being an insurgent. Things like this, if you ask me, are orders worth ignoring.

This is a war where any one can be considered "the enemy". We're acting as the Iraqi Thought Police, getting rid of anyone suspected of being an insurgent. Things like this, if you ask me, are orders worth ignoring.

Show me where we are acting as the Iraqi Thought Police and make sure it is a credible link.

All I'm trying to say is that this isn't an arguement that can be won. This is an arguement over honor and justice. Both those things, on this subject, are a matter of political view. I'm using the Thought Police as an analogy for the constant raids we do on "insurgents," and if you really think that doesn't happen, you can look it up yourself (though from the sound of it your "credible" source would be Fox News).

All I'm trying to say is that this isn't an arguement that can be won. This is an arguement over honor and justice. Both those things, on this subject, are a matter of political view. I'm using the Thought Police as an analogy for the constant raids we do on "insurgents," and if you really think that doesn't happen, you can look it up yourself (though from the sound of it your "credible" source would be Fox News).

I accept most major newspapers and nearly all cable channels.

However, you stated it and now I'm asking you to provide proof.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2005/n02052005_2005020502.html

That isn't the point, however. The point is that this is all a matter of personal opinion of things like honor. And personal opinion is very hard to change.

EDIT:

That just is to show that we are running the raids I was talking about. All for-profit media gets its information from the state on the subject of war, so you're "credible" sources are only going to say what the military tells them to.

This is a war where any one can be considered "the enemy". We're acting as the Iraqi Thought Police, getting rid of anyone suspected of being an insurgent. Things like this, if you ask me, are orders worth ignoring.

No, we're getting rid of people that are shooting at us.
In spite of what you've read on 'Democratic Underground' and 'Kos.com', American troops just aren't numerous enough to start headhunting people for having ideas, or even for speaking those ideas out loud. You might recall, further, that in 1991, the U.S. and the Coalition accepted a Cease-fire based on a set of terms agreed to by the Iraqi government. You might further note that the Iraqis did not hold up their end of the agreement. The fact that the U.S. acted on this, rather than simply letting it slide, is what this is really all about.

In other words, this is not a 'new' war, it is the 'old' gulf war taken off of 'pause', and brought to a finish.
(the Removal of Saddam Hussein was, initially, one of the GW1's prime objectives.)

You might further note that there is as yet another incomplete conflict involving American servicemen, and in that case, the lack of completion has allowed a regime that starves its own citizens to develop Thermonuclear Weapons. (Korea. fifty three years of Cease-fire), while no doubt this makes you uncomfortable, the fact is, right now, Iraq has a better chance of meeting its potential under its own citizens, than it did while we were enforcing the U.N. Sanctions. (Which can now be put to bed, better for everyone...)
Said Sanctions were not impacting the Iraqui Leadership, or their Elites, but were impacting (Horribly) their people.
While this was, no doubt, expensive for some interests in Europe who'd been violating the Sanctions and transferring money for the sake of drilling rights guaranteed by the Ba'Athist regime, that's not our problem, it's theirs. The main objective of American forces in Iraq in 2005 is the same one that was held by American Forces in Germany in 1946- get them back on their feet with a functioning government and the rule of law, then come home, because (speaking from experience) the Middle East Sucks when you're wearing Kevlar and a Flak vest. It's Not a pleasant place to be, and the good will of the locals is often surface-deep if that.

The war in '89 was over oil, the mistreating of Iraqi people during peace was ignored for oil, and the war now is for oil. That's all this conflict has ever been to us since the Berlin Wall fell.

The war in '89 was over oil, the mistreating of Iraqi people during peace was ignored for oil, and the war now is for oil. That's all this conflict has ever been to us since the Berlin Wall fell.
You get to yell.....BINGO!!!

http://www.sohoblues.com/GulfWarWeb/images/previews/preview9.jpg

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/legacy/environment/

May 28-30 Hussein asserts oil overproduction by Kuwait and United Arab Emirates is "economic warfare" against Iraq.

July 15-17 Iraq accuses Kuwait of stealing oil from Rumaylah oil field on Iraq-Kuwait border and warns of military action.

August 2, Iraq invades Kuwait and seizes Kuwaiti oil fields. Kuwait's emir flees. Iraq masses troops along the Saudi bordr. U.N. condemns Iraq's invasion and demands withdrawl.

January 22 Iraq begins blowing up Kuwaiti oil wells.

January 25, Iraq begins "environmental war" by pumping millions of gallons of crude oil into Gulf.

Crazy for oil (http://www.newint.org/issue236/crazy.htm)

The roots of the situation reach back to the day in October 1973 when Egypt and Syria attacked Israel and the world oil crisis began. Within a week, with US help, Israel was on the verge of victory. On 17 October the Arab members of the oil producers’ group, OPEC, decided to use oil as their best weapon against Western support for Israel. Production was cut back to engineer an artificial scarcity, prices were hiked by 70 per cent and all oil exports to the US were halted.

A few days later the war ended in a cease-fire with Israel having to stop short of victory. By early 1974, oil prices had quadrupled, causing one analyst to comment that it represented the biggest redistribution of wealth since the Spanish plundered Latin American gold.

At the root of the success of the oil producers was the West’s increasing dependence on OPEC oil. The Pentagon’s biggest concern was the result of some military assessments done in the wake of the 1974 energy crisis which seemed to suggest that, if the US had wanted to take over Middle East oil fields by armed force, they simply did not have the military capability to do so.

Throughout the rest of the 1970s the issue of resource supplies simmered away. By 1979, the US armed forces had their response - the establishment of the Joint Rapid Deployment Task Force. This included rapid-reaction army units, aircraft carriers, thousands of marines and hundreds of supporting ships and aircraft. In theory the Rapid Deployment Force could go anywhere, but its main sphere of operations was to be the Middle East.

The Force grew in importance when the far-right Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980. The new Cold War was under way, Afghanistan was Soviet-run, the fundamentalists controlled Iran and Uncle Sam needed even more Middle East oil.

Taking over Iraq was the next logical step?

The war in '89 was over oil, the mistreating of Iraqi people during peace was ignored for oil, and the war now is for oil. That's all this conflict has ever been to us since the Berlin Wall fell.

The war was in 1991! Learn that.

Care to prove that the 1991 war was for oil? Care to prove that this one is for oil too?

You get to yell.....BINGO!!!

And once again CH fails the history test.

Saddam invades Kuwait in 1990. In 1991, a coalition of forces led by the United States kicks him out of it.

You can make the case that The Persian Gulf War was about oil as well as the liberation of Iraq. You CANNOT make the same case for this one.

The war was in 1991! Learn that.

Care to prove that the 1991 war was for oil? Care to prove that this one is for oil too?

All wrong. This one was a personal family feud between the Bushs and the Husseins. And 9/11 is all just about a family feud between the Bushs and the bin Ladens. :D

(Oh, and George W. wants to prove he's a greater man than his daddy!)

All wrong. This one was a personal family feud between the Bushs and the Husseins. And 9/11 is all just about a family feud between the Bushs and the bin Ladens. :D

(Oh, and George W. wants to prove he's a greater man than his daddy!)family Feud huh...

Survey says....

Just joking.

But seriously, you can't deny that the circumstances of the Iraq war have been rather obscure. Saddam didn't have any WMDs. He didn't harbor bin laden's terrorists, either. It can't be just for the sake of removing Saddam alone (that could have already been done in 1991 - but wasn't done). So what?

Anyways, I think US troops should get out of Iraq ASAP and Bush should recall this ludicrously expensive operation...

Just joking.

Yep knew it was a joke.

But seriously, you can't deny that the circumstances of the Iraq war have been rather obscure. Saddam didn't have any WMDs. He didn't harbor bin laden's terrorists, either. It can't be just for the sake of removing Saddam alone (that could have already been done in 1991 - but wasn't done). So what?

WMD? True but still had the capacity to make them. Violation of UN Resolutions. Al Qaeda Terrorists? Zarqawi who has been there even before this war broke out! Why? Getting treated for wounds suffered in.....

AFGHANISTAN

Anyways, I think US troops should get out of Iraq ASAP and Bush should recall this ludicrously expensive operation...

This is just dumb. We pull out now, there will be a civil war. Sorry but that is just unacceptable. Nope, we'll stay till they are able to take care of themselves.

Nope. I just don't want to put up with the stupidity of some of our generals. I've spent 22 years around the military and also I don't follow orders very well. I would never make it through AF Basic Training.

I support our armed forces because I've spent years around them and I know who I owe my freedom too. I know what they go through to be the best. Frankly, I know that I would never cut it but I do support them. Just like I support the OFFICE of the President.

As for being a coward, I'm anything but. I love a fight but I pick and choose my fights. I just know that I would never cut it in the military because of 1) my mouth and 2) my inability to follow orders. To be honest, I probably could've gotten into the AFA but I turned it down because I know I wouldn't be able to cut it.

Oh...hahahahaha.

Just keep talking, continue making a fool out of yourself.

Oh...hahahahaha.

Just keep talking, continue making a fool out of yourself.

Care to point out where I made a fool out of myself considering everything you quoted is 100% true?

You ramble on about others being cowards and how duty is everything, etc etc. And then you give us some bullshit excuse for not being in the military yourself.

Kinda funny actually.

You ramble on about others being cowards and how duty is everything, etc etc. And then you give us some bullshit excuse for not being in the military yourself.

Kinda funny actually.

Care to show me what I said isn't true?

And to the victor goes the spOILs!!

Of course the Gulf War had nothing to do with OIL (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8523310&postcount=91)? :eek:

The war in '89 was over oil, the mistreating of Iraqi people during peace was ignored for oil, and the war now is for oil. That's all this conflict has ever been to us since the Berlin Wall fell.
OIL being a fundamental material for every industrialized nation on earth at this time, is a legitimate national interest, for any nation that has a high dependency on it due to plastics manufacturing, the use of Diesel Freight trains, or semi trucks, or ships.

It is certainly more legitimate than six years in the former Yugoslavia was.

If this war was about OIL, it could have been ended much sooner-it's easier to simply sieze the oil-fields, and kill anyone who approaches, than you think.
That course is certainly less-risky than letting the Shia majority in Iraq own guns and vote.

And to the victor goes the spOILs!!

Of course the Gulf War had nothing to do with OIL (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8523310&postcount=91)? :eek:

Did I say that the 1st Gulf War wasn't about oil? No I didn't! I said that it was as well as the liberation of Kuwait.

Can you prove that this war is about Oil?

From what I heard, soldiers much like this man joined for the college benefits.

But when it came time to pay back... they fled.

How naive are they? They are soldiers. You go out there and kill when your country tells you to. It's what they do, right or wrong! It's what you're told to do. And if you don't want to do it? You should have thought about that when you joined.

Joining just to get the college benefits, and not give anything in return. There is no free lunch here, people.

Can you prove that this war is about Oil?

Prove? We don't need proof! America bad!! America must be going to war for whatever jumed-up economically inviable reasons we decide! :rolleyes:

Anyways, if he'd been conscripted, I'd be completely on his side here, but having signed up voluntarily, he's in the wrong here. I wouldn't go so far as to label him a traitor, but he's certainly not proving himself commited here.

If you read the story, you'll notice that Canada is not going to give refugee status to those who first join the Army, and then later when the Army wants to send them to war, they suddenly claim to be conscientious objectors.

Is there some part of that flawed logic that you find logical? That someone would join a unit like the 82nd Airborne, and train to be a killer, and then suddenly, when it becomes real, and not training, jump up and say, "wait a minute, I thought this was all just playing around"

He knew the job was dangerous when he took it. It's not some secret clause in the contract.


If he really felt that the Iraq war was wrong then he was totally correct in deserting. He could have been an honorable soldier up until the Bush administration tried to send him to their personal colony. If that is truly the case, then I would say that he had every right to leave the military, uber-naitonalistic militaristic ideals aside.

If he really felt that the Iraq war was wrong then he was totally correct in deserting. He could have been an honorable soldier up until the Bush administration tried to send him to their personal colony. If that is truly the case, then I would say that he had every right to leave the military, uber-naitonalistic militaristic ideals aside.

Sorry, but you don't have the right to leave the military once you signed up. Once you do sign up, all you can do is resign and even then its not 100% that you do. Especially if you don't complete your minimum number of years.

Since this guy willingly joined up, I have no sympathy for him.

I did like the language the judge used in his ruling. I probably should find it.

Here's the oath. They make you say it out loud, and then you sign it. In front of witnesses:

I, <state your name>, do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Not a secret. Bush orders you to go to Iraq - that's where you go, unless you can prove the order is illegal under US law.YEAH they ask you to read out loud the the stop loss clause...before you sign.

We all trust the Recruiters to be honorable gentlemen... [/sarcasm]

I must dmint i didn't ready all posts in this topic, but in those i read i saw noone saying why people really join the army.
Many guys just join coz thw army promises them the cash they need for college.
Some join to defend their country. Is Iraq war defence in any way? is it anything else than just a fight for oil? (Strange that GWB is in the oil business and is fighting for... oil)
Others join the army coz they don't know what to do and this recruiter guy was telling them so many good things about the army "(you won't go to war, you just do the training and if one day there's a real threat to our country you can defend us"), so they join for few years but do not expect to be send in harms way.
Bush never fought in a war himself, none in his family will be send to this war, but he wants sons of other people to die for his business.

I must dmint i didn't ready all posts in this topic, but in those i read i saw noone saying why people really join the army.

Its been stated but you did say that you didn't read all of the posts.

Many guys just join coz thw army promises them the cash they need for college.

Yep true. The Air Force, and Navy do the samething.

Some join to defend their country.

Yep. This is true.

Is Iraq war defence in any way?

Yep. Defense of the Iraqi people from a tyrant called Saddam Hussein who has butchered his own people.

is it anything else than just a fight for oil? (Strange that GWB is in the oil business and is fighting for... oil)

Nope! Not about Oil at all.

Others join the army coz they don't know what to do and this recruiter guy was telling them so many good things about the army "(you won't go to war, you just do the training and if one day there's a real threat to our country you can defend us"), so they join for few years but do not expect to be send in harms way.

Now here, what you say is 100% false. They do tell you that you could go to war. They do tell you that you will have training but that you have a good chance of going to war.

...
Now here, what you say is 100% false. They do tell you that you could go to war. They do tell you that you will have training but that you have a good chance of going to war.not all recruiters are the same...some are like usedcars salesmen...other are downritgh crooked...

not all recruiters are the same some are like usedcars salesmen...other are downritgh crooked...

But they do tell you upfront that you have a chance to go to war. That is written in the UCMJ I'm sure.

I know of cases where recruiters were canned and tossed out and tossed into the brig for not telling them everything.

bloody conchies, if you don’t want to fight for your country don’t enlist, and if you don’t want to defend your countries ideology when conscription is needed(that’s a different matter to Iraq mind I mean ww2 like) then you should be fighting or living on the other side. American should do what we do and shoot them, i think its along with being a convicted traitor to parliament, the only crime you can be killed for over here.

I have no respect for cowards


... And therefore you have no respect for human life and no respect for freedom and you are no better than the Nazi's that spawned you.

Freedom to you is great as long as everyone is free to do whatever YOU want. *I* don't live like that. We have already made travel arrangements for several individuals to get out of the US before the start the conscription and rounding people who "object" into "camps".

You should look up that Moral compass thing, Nationalism is just beside Fascism... Thats where MONEY takes you.

Did I say that the 1st Gulf War wasn't about oil? No I didn't! I said that it was as well as the liberation of Kuwait.

Can you prove that this war is about Oil?

Yes...

Actually, all you have to do is look all the way back to the 1940's and the talk about the middle east then. The Unite States described the middle east as "A stupedous source of strategic power and the greatest imperial prize in world history. "Strategically the most important area of the world."...(Noam Chomsky - It's the Oil 3:09)

Of course, that does mean that the US has to control it. Of course that doesn't always work, because there are people living there and sometimes they want to benefit from their own resources and such...

But yes, just like overthrowing Cuba has been a dictum of the United States since prior to the turn of LAST century (Though constantly reinvented by the spin doctors to mean one thing one decade and another another decade... No wonder they put swastikas on your embassy), the oil of the middle east is the most important straegic prize in the world, and since Iraq "fell", 85 billion is being spent on infrastructure and "getting the oil out"... (With little trifles going to help some needy photo-op) (And I believe congress just approved more taxpayers money to get even more out... )

Halliburton, the Bin Ladens, and the Caryle group (Headed by the son of nazi War Profiter Prescott Bush, George H W Bush) all complicit in this affair. Hell, since they are the main profiteers, and have STRONG ties to the Bin Ladens, wouldn't it be logical to at least "investigate" the possibilty that they set 9/11 up? But no, you can't use common sense when dealing with the largest Nazi-sponsored dynasty currently in the world...The Bush/BinLadens.

It is no doubt why you got prohibition against marijuana in your country... Marijuana leads to a very firm "no bullshit" zone and a desire to do "the right thing". You can't have that and supress the people they begin to "want things" like freedom, respect, things you can't give them because you spend 85 billion to give to your corporations.

How much are you being paid to recite Republican Propoganda? I mean do you get paid by the letter or paid a salary? Do they bribe you with little trip to the golf course? Or with limosine rides filled with words like "You'll go far son" and "You're doing your country a great service!" etc etc... Because NO HUMAN BEING would stand for what they stand for unless they are slaves to the almighty dollar. No one wakes up in the morning and says "You know what, I want to be a bigot, and supress the worlds peoples."

And if you are not getting paid, then they are playing you like a book you poor poor poor man.

Can you prove that this war is about oil Krackonis?

Yep. Defense of the Iraqi people from a tyrant called Saddam Hussein who has butchered his own people.



Nope! Not about Oil at all.



.... While he was butchering them (The Kurds, in case you are blinded by your patriotism to look at the facts of who he was "butchering") We gave him all the biological and chemicle weapons to do it... Remember that Saddam is a CIA asset, has been on the books since 1955... http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html

In addition you have him 3 BILLION DOLLARS in 1988 to "buy tractors" from an American Company... He needed land... He rolled chemical and biological weapons made in South Carolina, by the "good" men and women working there, and killed 60,000 Kurdish farmers and buried them in big graves and sent his own people up there to toil the soil with new tractors made by the good people in Michigan.

You invaded him because he was putting his oil through the European Union's Oil trading mechanism, removing the US from the picture... NOW you will do the same to Iran because it is doing it aswell...
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

... So, go on and say its about WMDs or "Cruel Barabarous Dictators". We know full well it was about the Oil, and the supression tactics of the Imperialist States.

You can stand for unaccountable private power, or you can stand against it... I'm against it. Don't you hate it when your "subjects" get out of hand?

Can you prove that this war is about oil Krackonis?

So... You don't listen watch or read anything? Just spout off questions? Am I the ONLY person who reads history? Do you want a copy of the recording?

I anything getting through to you at all man?




HELLLOOOO?

*snip*

In addition you have him 3 BILLION DOLLARS in 1988 to "buy tractors" from an American Company... He needed land... He rolled chemical and biological weapons made in South Carolina, by the "good" men and women working there, and killed 60,000 Kurdish farmers and buried them in big graves and sent his own people up there to toil the soil with new tractors made by the good people in Michigan.

Did you also know that he had bigger contracts than from the United States? Thought not.

You invaded him because he was putting his oil through the European Union's Oil trading mechanism, removing the US from the picture... NOW you will do the same to Iran because it is doing it aswell...
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

Again, can you prove that this is about oil? Ironicly, France and Russia benefitted from the Oil even after the resolutions were in place? Oops! Another violation of UN Resolutions.

... So, go on and say its about WMDs or "Cruel Barabarous Dictators". We know full well it was about the Oil, and the supression tactics of the Imperialist States.

It wasn't about oil.

You can stand for unaccountable private power, or you can stand against it... I'm against it. Don't you hate it when your "subjects" get out of hand?

Subjects? We're not a monarchy.

So... You don't listen watch or read anything? Just spout off questions? Am I the ONLY person who reads history? Do you want a copy of the recording?

I anything getting through to you at all man?




HELLLOOOO?

Oh I listen and read everything that have been posted here. Most of which has been hammered. Hell even this judge stated that we've gone out of our way to prevent civilian deaths.

If you have a valid arguement, make it. Your posts have been debunked.

You ramble on about others being cowards and how duty is everything, etc etc. And then you give us some bullshit excuse for not being in the military yourself.

Kinda funny actually.
Would you want everyone in the country to be in the military? Or only the best people suited for it?

I'm glad that Canada is closed to deserters. If there were a draft, it would be different. But there isn't. Whether or not the war is illegal is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not soldiers would be persecuted upon returning. The US does not torture deserters by drawing and quartering them, but rather with the common and humane practice of imprisonment.

So... You don't listen watch or read anything? Just spout off questions? Am I the ONLY person who reads history? Do you want a copy of the recording?

I anything getting through to you at all man?




HELLLOOOO?
Another person who knows the truth!! :)

There are people who are Bush apologists who will spout forever and a day that Iraq is about saving the poor people there and giving them "freedom" and "democracy", yet they will ignore the fact that if all there was in Iraq was sand (without oil underneath), then Iraq would not be a focus of world attention and would not have been a battle ground.

The US is not leaving Iraq any time soon (they are building 14 "enduring" bases), and the next target (Iran) is clearly in sight.

Another person who knows the truth!! :)

There are people who are Bush apologists who will spout forever and a day that Iraq is about saving the poor people there and giving them "freedom" and "democracy", yet they will ignore the fact that if all there was in Iraq was sand (without oil underneath), then Iraq would not be a focus of world attention and would not have been a battle ground.

The US is not leaving Iraq any time soon (they are building 14 "enduring" bases), and the next target (Iran) is clearly in sight.
How much of this oil have we taken, exactly?

How much of this oil have we taken, exactly?
It is not about taking oil now. It is about perserving readily available access to oil supplies in the future. (http://www.fpif.org/papers/03petropol/politics.html) Right now, most of the world relies on oil and its byproducts to transport their goods, and make their products. The demand is increasing but the supply is finite. Unless the world dramatically weans itself from these types of non renewable resources, the resultant shortfall could and probably will cause the economies of some countries to come to a grinding halt. The US, by invading countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq and probably Iran, helps to ensure that the supply of oil will not be interrupted or stopped altogether, such as what happened in the 1970's.

Having said all that, I cannot fault a soldier seeking asylum in Canada, knowing full well that his life is being put on the line so that the US can gain control of the US lifeblood, namely oil.

It is not about taking oil now. It is about perserving readily available access to oil supplies in the future. (http://www.fpif.org/papers/03petropol/politics.html) Right now, most of the world relies on oil and its byproducts to transport their goods, and make their products. The demand is increasing but the supply is finite. Unless the world dramatically weans itself from these types of non renewable resources, the resultant shortfall could and probably will cause the economies of some countries to come to a grinding halt. The US, by invading countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq and probably Iran, helps to ensure that the supply of oil will not be interrupted or stopped altogether, such as what happened in the 1970's.

Credible source?

As for supplies, did you know that the US has 2 trillion barrels of oil in our shale deposits? Why do we need to invade when we can convert that? MMMMM!!! And Iran is more natural gas than oil and we have a huge Natural Gas reserve in the Rockies that is untapped.

Having said all that, I cannot fault a soldier seeking asylum in Canada, knowing full well that his life is being put on the line so that the US can gain control of the US lifeblood, namely oil.

He deserted now its time for him to pay the price. I'm glad your showing that you have no regard for law.

I'm glad your showing that you have no regard for law.
I have tons of respect and regard for the law. However, I think this is one can of worms that I think you should leave the lid on.

Well Canuck, nothing you say is going to change the facts on the ground. The US is rearranging the Middle East (for your reason, or mine, or any other reason is irrelevant). And Canada is rejecting soldiers who enlisted voluntarily to serve as infantrymen in airborne units who then turn around and suddenly say they are conscientious objectors.

Apparently, even a Canadian government official can see that the soldiers in question are full of shit.

I have tons of respect and regard for the law. However, I think this is one can of worms that I think you should leave the lid on.

Then you should advocate that this guy should be brought back since he broke the law of the UCMJ.

I wonder what the world would be like if all soldiers were like this one...

Well Canuck, nothing you say is going to change the facts on the ground. The US is rearranging the Middle East (for your reason, or mine, or any other reason is irrelevant). And Canada is rejecting soldiers who enlisted voluntarily to serve as infantrymen in airborne units who then turn around and suddenly say they are conscientious objectors.

Apparently, even a Canadian government official can see that the soldiers in question are full of shit.

Yep! Almost what the Judge said too. I still gotta find that opinion from this Canadian Judge.

I wonder what the world would be like if all soldiers were like this one...
A world of peace?

A world of peace?

Or anarchy?

Ok guys, lets knock off the trolling before a current mod comes along and bashes some heads in, ok?


Being a current military member, I can assure you that MANY times I've been tempted to drive the 6-10hrs to Mexico and just...disappear... However, I have integrity to not take such a course of action. I made a commitment. However much I regret that, whether I agree with the war in the middle east, whatever I am ordered to do - I voluntered to join the military. If I am sent to Iraq, I go. I signed on the dotted line.

Had I been drafted, it would be a different story. When Rumsfeld was taking crap for his statemtent about going to war with the army you have, he was 100% right. Regardless of the tools you have, when you're told to go, you go. The current U.S. military is a Voluntary force. Everyone in voluntered to be in, and to remain in. Trust me, it's not hard to get kicked out if you really want out.

I wonder what the world would be like if all soldiers were like this one...

1. There would be no government, because governments ultimately depend on soldiers and police using force.
2. Those who had never wanted to join the military, because they hate authority, but who crave power, could now go do whatever they want, including killing and enslaving everyone in sight.

The soldier in question is not really a pacifist. Pacifists don't enlist in the infantry and go to airborne units. Speaking as a former airborne infantryman, and having done all the same training he went through, there's no credible way you could do all that, wait several years, and then suddenly come to the conclusion you're a pacifist. He's full of shit.

Oh, I see. You're wondering what the world would be like if all soldiers were full of shit like that guy... See 1 and 2 above...