NationStates Jolt Archive

What is everyones opinions on getting universal health care in this country? Also, those of you from other countries, what is your health care system like?

I think health care should be mandatory for ALL citizens and get rid of the insurance agencies that dont want to pay for health care anyway.

i have anthem blue cross/blue shield and have to THREATEN them with lawsuits EVERY TIME i go to the doctor. A couple years ago, i broke my hip and was taken to the emergency room. they REFUSED to pay because they said that it wasnt a "life threatening emergency" and i shouldnt have gone to the ER. i couldnt believe it.

anyone else have any insurance stories?

A friend of mine with no job and no insurance broke his wrist in a car accident.. the cop dropped him off at the hospital (it was nearby and he wasn't sure it was broken at the time), and they treated him. He told them he couldn't pay, and went home. The end.

The last thing we need is the government taking over our hospitals, unless we want them run like the DMV.. look at the recent deaths in Canada due to mold infecting patients. How lazy do you have to be to let that happen? Very. People need to be able to switch doctors or hospitals if one won't perform, and take his dollar elsewhere.

I got Oxford. They're great. They even reimburse me for my gym membership.

I got Oxford. They're great. They even reimburse me for my gym membership.


wow-who do you work for and where??? thats excellent!

Bush is reuining the healthcare system.

My father, as a doctor, is not benefiting from Bush's medicae plans. When my father buys drugs for his patients, he gets 88% of the money back. The other 12% goes to funding a needless war.

How F-ing crappy is that?

Bush is reuining the healthcare system.

My father, as a doctor, is not benefiting from Bush's medicae plans. When my father buys drugs for his patients, he gets 88% of the money back. The other 22% goes to funding a needless war.

How F-ing crappy is that?
Your father sounds like he has bigger problems judging by his son's communication skills. 110%?

wow-who do you work for and where??? thats excellent!

I'm with a non-profit, so I trade cash-money for bennies. This, I can deal with.

Your father sounds like he has bigger problems judging by his son's communication skills. 110%?
Fuc*. Sorry.

A solution to high prices and poor service in health is to discourage the compensation-culture malpractice lawsuits. Doctors are so afraid of getting sued that they can't make a buck in the industry anymore, so there's less competition between doctors over cost and service.

Take it from someone who lives with a totally nationalized health service, it's no bed of roses. If you're lucky enough to find a waiting list that isn't a mile long, you'll be greeted with shoddy service. You probably can't afford to go private, because in order to fund health, the government's milking money out of you like there's no tomorrow.

In the UK, all treatment is free for anyone. Of course you will wait 18 months (on average) for a heart bypass. However, ex-pats are no longer intitled to free treatment on the NHS, regardless of how long they have paid in to the UK system or how long they have been living abroad.

In Spain, treatment is free if you have paid into the social security system for a mimimum of one year or have an E111 form (so the health service can claim expenses from the UK). A friends triple heart bypass here took 3 weeks.

Private helath insurance in Spain costs me 20 euros a month (age 25-30) and will increase to 60 euros a month at age 55-60. I only have private insurance because my business isnt set up and so i havent paid into the social security system yet.

The last thing we need is the government taking over our hospitals, unless we want them run like the DMV.. look at the recent deaths in Canada due to mold infecting patients. How lazy do you have to be to let that happen? Very. People need to be able to switch doctors or hospitals if one won't perform, and take his dollar elsewhere.
How does being able tyo change hospitals even relate to health care insurance? Insurance companies are greedy bastards who could care less about the people paying them money. The government should take the job of insurance companies and pay out when something happens to you. You would logically have to pay more in taxes; HOWEVER, it would only be the exact amount you WERE paying for insurance and in several cases less. There would be able to have a flat rate with definate coverage instead of all this bs. My dad has to pay for almost all of his insurance coverage and barely gets anything out of it. The government won't have anything to do with th hospitals, they will take over the job of insurance companies. Why other countries with national health care have problems is beyond me. I don't see how privatising it would help because if people are having trouble seeing doctors either the system is fubar'd or there arn't enough doctors and hospitals and clinics

Haha i get everything free on t'National Health Service :)

In the UK, all treatment is free for anyone.

I don't see how you can call it free if you're being charged an extra 10 or 20 percent of your income through taxes to keep it afloat.. same goes for Canadians.. Nothing's free.

Those from other countries welcome to comment too? Ok, here goes: We have universal health care in Finland, and usually it's a good thing and works just fine... usually meaning "when you are healthy -or not too severely ill'".

Now don't get me wrong, nobody goes without treatment, and the cost is minimal... but if you have for example a heart condition - of not the critical kind - you may end up spending a long time waiting for a surgery. This is the case with many cases that require specialists.

The problem here is that the education is practically free but still GOOD (weell, I KNOW, no such thing as free education... that's what the taxes are for)... that means our doctors and nurses are often invited to other European countries, maybe USA too, I wouldn't know. Do they say 'no' to money? Of course not, who would!?. So, we are left with too few doctors to maintain that universal healtcare.

Universal healthcare, what a great idea! - if you live in a vacuum.

:end rant:

Haha i get everything free on t'National Health Service

Wait until you've got something really wrong, you wont be laughing then!

A side note. antibiotics in the UK are a flat fee of £6.50 (unless the prescription charge has increased). Over here thay are available over the counter and cost about 2-3 euros for a seven day course!!!!! I never realised prescription charges were there to rip you off on cheep drugs!

How does being able tyo change hospitals even relate to health care insurance? Insurance companies are greedy bastards who could care less about the people paying them money. The government should take the job of insurance companies and pay out when something happens to you. You would logically have to pay more in taxes; HOWEVER, it would only be the exact amount you WERE paying for insurance and in several cases less. There would be able to have a flat rate with definate coverage instead of all this bs. My dad has to pay for almost all of his insurance coverage and barely gets anything out of it. The government won't have anything to do with th hospitals, they will take over the job of insurance companies. Why other countries with national health care have problems is beyond me. I don't see how privatising it would help because if people are having trouble seeing doctors either the system is fubar'd or there arn't enough doctors and hospitals and clinics

I pay my HMO (Kaiser) a $10 premium per visit, whether it's a major surgery or a perscription.. I'd rather remain on my plan than pay 20 percent more of my income to keep some corrupt, bureaucratic ponzi scheme afloat.

I don't see how you can call it free if you're being charged an extra 10 or 20 percent of your income through taxes to keep it afloat.. same goes for Canadians.. Nothing's free.

It is if you're on social security benefits or an imigrant. 100%, totally, mind blowingly, ab-so-f***-lutely free.

I pay my HMO (Kaiser) a $10 premium per visit, whether it's a major surgery or a perscription.. I'd rather remain on my plan than pay 20 percent more of my income to keep some corrupt, bureaucratic ponzi scheme afloat.
You pay for health insurance out of your paycheck ANYWAY. Instead of that going to corrupt agencies who don't care, it would go to the government who would pay for medical care

It is if you're on social security benefits or an imigrant. 100%, totally, mind blowingly, ab-so-f***-lutely free.

If you're on SS, assuming you've worked you entire life, then you've already paid massive sums for your "free" healthcare. If you're an immigrant, have never worked a job, and depend on welfare for everything you own, then everything's free. That's the only way you're going to get "free" healthcare.

If you're on SS, assuming you've worked you entire life, then you've already paid massive sums for your "free" healthcare.

I was thinking more of of the never-have-worked single mothers and waisters rather than pensioners

If you're an immigrant, have never worked a job, and depend on welfare for everything you own, then everything's free. That's the only way you're going to get "free" healthcare.

I believe that was my point.

You pay for health insurance out of your paycheck ANYWAY. Instead of that going to corrupt agencies who don't care, it would go to the government who would pay for medical care

Yes, eliminate all competition. That way, the government will feel really pressured to provide top-quality service. After all, if you and I, the taxpayer, are unsatisfied with the treatment, we can simply switch to... I mean, we can simply shut up and take whatever they give us. Sounds good.

A solution to high prices and poor service in health is to discourage the compensation-culture malpractice lawsuits. Doctors are so afraid of getting sued that they can't make a buck in the industry anymore, so there's less competition between doctors over cost and service.

So what, in you r infinite wisdom, do you propose people who have been screwed by a self serving healthcare system do when their condition comes out worse than when they went in due to incompetence. Should they just "suck it up"? I mean, hey, they went to the doctor of their own accord right?

What your saying basically is that hospitals and doctor's offices should post signs that say "Enter at your ouw risk," and be made to sign a waiver before treatment.

That is the dumbest idea EVER. Let's just not hold people accountable for harming people's lives... Oh wiat, let's ammend that to; Let's just not hold RICH people accountable for harming people's lives,because that's obvious class warfare, and "punishing the successful" right? I mean if people can't care enough for themselves to get into the position to need a doctor in the first place, then they deserve what they get! :rolleyes:

Yes, eliminate all competition. That way, the government will feel really pressured to provide top-quality service. After all, if you and I, the taxpayer, are unsatisfied with the treatment, we can simply switch to... I mean, we can simply shut up and take whatever they give us. Sounds good.
OH please, there is no REAL competition. In Alabama, well over 50% of all people are insured by Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Are you arguing we shouldn't even have government? The point of a representative government like we have is we can vote out people doing stuff we don't like and vote in people who will do what we want. That is the blance, not an imaginary competition

Of course, there isn't a country where universal healthcare is the only form of medical care. You can have your personal medical insurance and use private clinics as you wish. Universal healthcare is just a safety net for the least fortunate.

Edit... don't know about Cuba though...

Not to mention, with the government now having to py for everyone's health care and insurance companies no longer playing the overpaid middle man, companies will no longer have to pay for their employees health care and will save millions. Wouldn't all the pro-business Republicans agree with having national healthcare for that reason? Extreme company benefit

OH please, there is no REAL competition. In Alabama, well over 50% of all people are insured by Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Are you arguing we shouldn't even have government? The point of a representative government like we have is we can vote out people doing stuff we don't like and vote in people who will do what we want. That is the blance, not an imaginary competition

I've switched policies and companies before, based on the treatment I've received. If half of people choose one company, that's their business. If they're on Blue Cross, they're probably paying too much, but that's their business, again. The government

You can't vote out the bureaucracy, no matter what you do. Civil service protections mean that a universal healthcare scheme would be entrenched like a tick, and the taxpayers without thumbs. As for the people we CAN vote for, they won't be implementing a universal system anytime soon, thank God.

i have worked with the mentally disabled for about 15 years. they all have medicaid and only pay $1.00 for health care coverage, including prescriptions. It pays to be either really rich or really poor in this country. the middle class are the ones getting screwed.

i dont think our current system works. unfortunately, i dont have a solution for a better system....i think its outrageous that americans have to fight with their insurance companies to pay up.

i appreciate all the feedback from those who do have healthcare from other countries...i was just wondering how that system worked or if it even does work.

hospitals are required to treat you if you have insurance or not, however, they will come after you for payment. i have a coworker (who is covered by blue cross, by the way) who had an emergency surgery for her daughter. anthem refused payment and the hospital is now garnishing her wages for $20,000! She has had to file bankruptcy and may have to quit her job to go on government assistance to get better healthcare. it really is outrageous.

Of course, there isn't a country where universal healthcare is the only form of medical care. You can have your personal medical insurance and use private clinics as you wish. Universal healthcare is just a safety net for the least fortunate.

That's the part that most of the "what's mine is mine" people refuse to internalize. They seem to think that it's some huge imposition on their lives to allow people to see a doctor and not be plunged into lifelong debt. It's one of the most frustrating things I see on a day to day basis.

I've switched policies and companies before, based on the treatment I've received. If half of people choose one company, that's their business. If they're on Blue Cross, they're probably paying too much, but that's their business, again. The government

You can't vote out the bureaucracy, no matter what you do. Civil service protections mean that a universal healthcare scheme would be entrenched like a tick, and the taxpayers without thumbs. As for the people we CAN vote for, they won't be implementing a universal system anytime soon, thank God.
Government paid health care both benefits people AND corporations.

Of course, there isn't a country where universal healthcare is the only form of medical care. You can have your personal medical insurance and use private clinics as you wish. Universal healthcare is just a safety net for the least fortunate.
So why can't we all agree that this plan would work?

The poor get treatments for a reduced cost (not 80 dollars for check up without insurance) like 20 dollars or whatever.
The rich get better service because they paying more. Like heart bypass, etc.

I mean I can hardly underdtand why everyone think Universal healthcare must be exclusive. It can have private stuff too.

Not to mention, with the government now having to py for everyone's health care and insurance companies no longer playing the overpaid middle man, companies will no longer have to pay for their employees health care and will save millions. Wouldn't all the pro-business Republicans agree with having national healthcare for that reason? Extreme company benefit

I sure as hell didn't pay for my employees' healthcare when I ran a business.. Corporations aren't required to. If I knew of a single system wherein the government of any nation ran a universal healthcare system well, and on a reasonable budget, there might actually be something to consider.

So what, in you r infinite wisdom, do you propose people who have been screwed by a self serving healthcare system do when their condition comes out worse than when they went in due to incompetence. Should they just "suck it up"? I mean, hey, they went to the doctor of their own accord right?

What your saying basically is that hospitals and doctor's offices should post signs that say "Enter at your ouw risk," and be made to sign a waiver before treatment.

That is the dumbest idea EVER. Let's just not hold people accountable for harming people's lives... Oh wiat, let's ammend that to; Let's just not hold RICH people accountable for harming people's lives,because that's obvious class warfare, and "punishing the successful" right? I mean if people can't care enough for themselves to get into the position to need a doctor in the first place, then they deserve what they get! :rolleyes:

...you have no idea what he's referring to, nor the gravity of the frivilous malpractice suit situation, do you >_>. Currently, doctors pay a fortune in insurance for malpractice; note that a very large percentage of the cases brought against them are frivilious, however, the doctor still pays lawyer fees and such, regardless of the outcome of the case.

Government paid health care both benefits people AND corporations.

Not after the IRS gets through with them. Not when the government bureaucrats overspend their budget as they love to do, and leave us with substandard care. You don't mind that the system would be run by a massive unelected, un-firable bureaucracy?

You pay for health insurance out of your paycheck ANYWAY. Instead of that going to corrupt agencies who don't care, it would go to the also corrupt government who would pay for medical care
I hope you don't mind. I repaired your sentence.

That's the part that most of the "what's mine is mine" people refuse to internalize. They seem to think that it's some huge imposition on their lives to allow people to see a doctor and not be plunged into lifelong debt. It's one of the most frustrating things I see on a day to day basis. Well, convincing "what is mine is mine" people isn't my job. I'm afraid to go out now because of my initial post... I may seem to be a liberal in this thread... but where I'm coming from, that's right-wing insanity! :D

So what, in you r infinite wisdom, do you propose people who have been screwed by a self serving healthcare system do when their condition comes out worse than when they went in due to incompetence. Should they just "suck it up"? I mean, hey, they went to the doctor of their own accord right?

What your saying basically is that hospitals and doctor's offices should post signs that say "Enter at your ouw risk," and be made to sign a waiver before treatment.

That is the dumbest idea EVER. Let's just not hold people accountable for harming people's lives... Oh wiat, let's ammend that to; Let's just not hold RICH people accountable for harming people's lives,because that's obvious class warfare, and "punishing the successful" right? I mean if people can't care enough for themselves to get into the position to need a doctor in the first place, then they deserve what they get! :rolleyes:

Your poorly-spelt ramblings were a little tough to decipher, but I think I get the gist of what you're saying. Of course I think that genuine cases of medical malpractice should be taken to court. However, there seem to be a lot of cases of patients just suing their doctors for the sheer hell of it, on the offchance that they'll get compensation.

In a healthily competing private health industry, genuinely malpracticing doctors will quickly go out of business. Of course, with a publically funded health system choking out private ones, there isn't anywhere else to go when the doctors start acting badly, and even if there is, you can't afford it because the government has taxed your ass like mad in order to provide it. This actually happens in the UK. NHS doctors don't need to perform particularly well because they'll get customers no matter what they do. I mean, they really give a damn if their hospital gets a special foundation hospital award or whatever, right?

Oh, wiat[sic].

...you have no idea what he's referring to, nor the gravity of the frivilous malpractice suit situation, do you >_>. Currently, doctors pay a fortune in insurance for malpractice; note that a very large percentage of the cases brought against them are frivilious, however, the doctor still pays lawyer fees and such, regardless of the outcome of the case.

I'd welcome any statistics you may have procured on that. Personally, I think it's a, too large, brush being used to paint a rosey vaneer over the idea that healthcare should only be for those who can afford it. And that is, pardon the pun, sickening.

Of course, there isn't a country where universal healthcare is the only form of medical care. You can have your personal medical insurance and use private clinics as you wish. Universal healthcare is just a safety net for the least fortunate.

Edit... don't know about Cuba though...That's not the case in Canada. Canadians wishing to pay for treatment instead of waiting have to go to the US or some other place. It's illegal to practice medicine in Canada outside of the socialized system.

At least I think that's right. Back me up, Canadians.

I hope you don't mind, I repaired your sentence.
No, not at all

So why can't we all agree that this plan would work?

The poor get treatments for a reduced cost (not 80 dollars for check up without insurance) like 20 dollars or whatever.
The rich get better service because they paying more. Like heart bypass, etc.

I mean I can hardly underdtand why everyone think Universal healthcare must be exclusive. It can have private stuff too.

The problem is, for many areas of medicine, it does become exclusive. People are going to choose the "free" health over the one which you have to pay for, and even people who understand that they're being taxed for it figure that since they paid for it, there's no point paying again for a new one.

The plan wouldn't work because in reality, public health does choke out private health, and the monopoly which occurs creates shoddy service. Plus everybody's taxed way more.

That's not the case in Canada. Canadians wishing to pay for treatment instead of waiting have to go to the US or some other place. It's illegal to practice medicine in Canada outside of the socialized system.

At least I think that's right. Back me up, Canadians.
Oh! I didn't know that... well... that sounds kinda fucked up.

Not to mention, with the government now having to py for everyone's health care and insurance companies no longer playing the overpaid middle man, companies will no longer have to pay for their employees health care and will save millions. Wouldn't all the pro-business Republicans agree with having national healthcare for that reason? Extreme company benefit
Without getting too technical, the current system already serves special interests in a way the politicians are comfortable with.

And companies like providing health coverage. They don't do it because they have to, but because it attracts and retains employees. If you quit a job, you're without decent health coverage for at least 90 days, unless you pay the full rate, which will blow your mind. For people with families, it makes changing jobs difficult and risky.

Universal Health Care? That would kill the economy in my state. Almost every insurence company is in Connecticut, and it provides thousands and thousands of jobs. Do you want to kill Hartford?

why cant we have a system where doctors and hospitals are free to make their own decisions, however, the government would pay for health coverage?

kind of like a social security system for health care....of course people would have to pay more taxes, but wouldnt it be worth it?

i dont think anyone wants the government making health care decisions for them and i dont propose that. i am just proposing that medical care be covered by the government.

i dont think our current system works. unfortunately, i dont have a solution for a better system....i think its outrageous that americans have to fight with their insurance companies to pay up.

I'm right there with you. I can understand why so many people want socialized health care throughout the US, but I don't think they understand what's really wrong here.

First off, the medical industry is heavly regulated and controlled by the federal government, state governments, and national special interest groups. Beyond that, the health insurance industry is strictly controlled, mainly by the states. Laws exist telling them what they must cover, and what they don't have to. Then, there are laws requiring hospitals to treat people regardless of their ability to pay. That may seem fine, but there are hospitals in my area that face being shut down, because they can't pay their bills. It's a tough buisness.

Anyway, the system we have is the result of so many laws. It's a mess, and I don't quite know how to untangle it. I would advise the self-employed to get catastrophic health insurance only, and to find a doctor who provides discount fees for cash. There's a physician I've heard of who no longer accepts any insurrance and only charges $35-40 per visit. He's able to run his practice as he wants and doesn't have to worry about whether anything he does is covered.

why cant we have a system where doctors and hospitals are free to make their own decisions, however, the government would pay for health coverage?

kind of like a social security system for health care....of course people would have to pay more taxes, but wouldnt it be worth it?

i dont think anyone wants the government making health care decisions for them and i dont propose that. i am just proposing that medical care be covered by the government.

It works like that here in England. The NHS is to an extent independantly run, and doctors and hospital managers can make decisions on a day to day basis.

However, it's not about the ability to make decisions, it's about incentive. If government-funded hospital X has it's payroll guaranteed by the government, there's no need for them to provide service nearly as good as a private competitor. Still, the private competitor goes out of business because people use the "free" service.

And on the subject of "free", no, I don't think the extra taxes are worth it.

No, not at all
Oops. :)

I'm right there with you. I can understand why so many people want socialized health care throughout the US, but I don't think they understand what's really wrong here.

First off, the medical industry is heavly regulated and controlled by the federal government, state governments, and national special interest groups. Beyond that, the health insurance industry is strictly controlled, mainly by the states. Laws exist telling them what they must cover, and what they don't have to. Then, there are laws requiring hospitals to treat people regardless of their ability to pay. That may seem fine, but there are hospitals in my area that face being shut down, because they can't pay their bills. It's a tough buisness.

Anyway, the system we have is the result of so many laws. It's a mess, and I don't quite know how to untangle it. I would advise the self-employed to get catastrophic health insurance only, and to find a doctor who provides discount fees for cash. There's a physician I've heard of who no longer accepts any insurrance and only charges $35-40 per visit. He's able to run his practice as he wants and doesn't have to worry about whether anything he does is covered.
Good post. Helped me to see what USAnian problem is too (well, if BC has it right). And don't wait for a sudden change for good either.. there's like close to 300 million of you... universal healthcare (...or fair healthcare in general) doesn't even work marvels in a country of 5 million inhabitants which taxes like ... like... well, it taxes!

I'd welcome any statistics you may have procured on that. Personally, I think it's a, too large, brush being used to paint a rosey vaneer over the idea that healthcare should only be for those who can afford it. And that is, pardon the pun, sickening.

Its not just the costs of the lawsuits that has to be factored in. We also need to take into account all the extra procedures that are done basically so that the doctor can protect himself. All the extra MRI and CTs all the surgeries. All the unneeded prescriptions. All of this adds to the cost of the insurance companies. It shows up as high malpractice premiums AND as high medical insurance costs. Insurance companies also squeeze where they can. This usually comes in the form of lower re imbursements to doctors and hospitals. In turn, doctors and hospitals get creative with their billing.

The problem is, for many areas of medicine, it does become exclusive. People are going to choose the "free" health over the one which you have to pay for, and even people who understand that they're being taxed for it figure that since they paid for it, there's no point paying again for a new one.

The plan wouldn't work because in reality, public health does choke out private health, and the monopoly which occurs creates shoddy service. Plus everybody's taxed way more.That's a good point. Yeah, whenever the government competes with private buisness, it has the benefit of dictating price. In this case, free. As with government schooling, many would opt for the free system rather than paying a lot of money for better quality.

What is everyones opinions on getting universal health care in this country? Also, those of you from other countries, what is your health care system like?

I think health care should be mandatory for ALL citizens and get rid of the insurance agencies that dont want to pay for health care anyway.

i have anthem blue cross/blue shield and have to THREATEN them with lawsuits EVERY TIME i go to the doctor. A couple years ago, i broke my hip and was taken to the emergency room. they REFUSED to pay because they said that it wasnt a "life threatening emergency" and i shouldnt have gone to the ER. i couldnt believe it.

anyone else have any insurance stories?

IMO, people should give up the idea that they are entitled to health care. It is like saying I'm entitled to be taken care of simply because I exist. I'm not responsible for myself, everyone else is.

Without getting too technical, the current system already serves special interests in a way the politicians are comfortable with.

And companies like providing health coverage. They don't do it because they have to, but because it attracts and retains employees. If you quit a job, you're without decent health coverage for at least 90 days, unless you pay the full rate, which will blow your mind. For people with families, it makes changing jobs difficult and risky.

I dont know about AZ, but in NY there is COBRA to cover this situation

i dont think anyone wants the government making health care decisions for them and i dont propose that. i am just proposing that medical care be covered by the government.

If medical care is paid for by the government, everyone understands that it is ultimately paid by the tax payers. This means, among other things, that tax rates will go up. In addition, I have a story to relay from my marketing professor. He was in France (universal health care) and for whatever reason had to visit the doctor (free). My professor didn't speak much (his wife did the talking) and at the end of the visit the doctor began to prescribe medication (also free). The list the doctor handed my professor was about a page long with about 20 drugs to *take*. It was about this time that the wife spoke up and informed the doctor that his patient was not French and thus would have to pay his own money for the drugs. The doctor retrieved the list and began marking items off the list down to about 5 that were really needed. My point is this, if the heath system is *free* people will take advantage of the system and visit the doctor for every little problem. Eventually, you will end up with lines out the door and waiting lists reaching down 3 months. In addition, costs begin to go through the roof and taxes go up.

I think that the suggestion of two systems is a valid one; universal health care for those that choose it and private health care for those who choose it.

Anyway, the system we have is the result of so many laws. It's a mess, and I don't quite know how to untangle it. I would advise the self-employed to get catastrophic health insurance only, and to find a doctor who provides discount fees for cash. There's a physician I've heard of who no longer accepts any insurrance and only charges $35-40 per visit. He's able to run his practice as he wants and doesn't have to worry about whether anything he does is covered.

There is a whole network of doctors country wide. I forgot the name, but a little bit of googling will find it I am sure. They can charge so much less because there is no govt/hmo paperwork to deal with, they are paid in timely fashion, they dont have to dedicate staff to get pre authorizations from the hmos ect.

If medical care is paid for by the government, everyone understands that it is ultimately paid by the tax payers. This means, among other things, that tax rates will go up. In addition, I have a story to relay from my marketing professor. He was in France (universal health care) and for whatever reason had to visit the doctor (free). My professor didn't speak much (his wife did the talking) and at the end of the visit the doctor began to prescribe medication (also free). The list the doctor handed my professor was about a page long with about 20 drugs to *take*. It was about this time that the wife spoke up and informed the doctor that his patient was not French and thus would have to pay his own money for the drugs. The doctor retrieved the list and began marking items off the list down to about 5 that were really needed. My point is this, if the heath system is *free* people will take advantage of the system and visit the doctor for every little problem. Eventually, you will end up with lines out the door and waiting lists reaching down 3 months. In addition, costs begin to go through the roof and taxes go up.

I think that the suggestion of two systems is a valid one; universal health care for those that choose it and private health care for those who choose it.
I understand the French have to part pay for there system when they use it and part pay in taxes. I may have mis-understood my french friend who explained it but she seemed to think it was a superior system.
I don't see a problem with the UK system though. The private sector is healthy (pun intended) and is a good option if you want fast service (and can afford it). For normal treatment the waiting times seem exagerated in my experience. My daughters apendectamy was obviously instantly treated and my mother has been in hospital 4 times in the last year for peritinitis, gall stones, cataracts and a hernia and hasn't waited more than a couple of months for any of them. She was hardly in discomfort (except for the "pelvis full of pus" great quote from her doctor).
My wife also had a broken wrist x-rayed and set in under an hour recently. Which has to be as fast as is possible really.
So, I think NHS doing well and costs me about 9% of my wage (in theory)

That's a good point. Yeah, whenever the government competes with private buisness, it has the benefit of dictating price. In this case, free. As with government schooling, many would opt for the free system rather than paying a lot of money for better quality.

Of course, it's far from free. In fact, you pay for it even if you don't want to use it.

Nationalized health care. I'm against it. I believe that doing so is unjust and wrong. It goes beyond the scope of behavior in which I believe a government should fit. Healthcare is a voluntary service, and it is not my responsibility to take care of you. Healthcare is your responsibility to get, not big brothers.

I have mostly good stories about my experiences with my healthcare providers over the years. While they may have grumped about name-brand medicines at different points in time, they have always paid up their share as was agreed.

I live in Canada, where by virtue of being Canadian, we have a social safety net keeping us from falling to far. Everyone laughed when Pearson and Douglas introduced it, but now it is possibly our most cherished national posession.

I live in Canada, where by virtue of being Canadian, we have a social safety net keeping us from falling to far. Everyone laughed when Pearson and Douglas introduced it, but now it is possibly our most cherished national posession.

That depends on which Canadian you ask. I have several friends that routinely come to the U.S. for medical services due to poor quality of care and lack of timeliness of care.

Of course, it's far from free. In fact, you pay for it even if you don't want to use it.

That's the part that really bugs me! :mad:

I dont know about AZ, but in NY there is COBRA to cover this situation

COBRA is a federal law I believe, every state I have been in to do work has a COBRA law. It only says you can keep your current insurance but you are to pay for everything yourself. The company that you left is not liable to pay anything like they do while you work for them. Hence the shock of getting a bill for the full amount compared to what you had to pay with your employment.

Universal healthcare brings mediocre treatment to the majority and the wealthy in the nation still can go places to recieve better treament. I would much rather have a system like the US's. It isn't perfect, the payment system seems jerry-rigged but it has provided the highest level of medical research and tech in the world and the highest number of doctors per capita.
I went home with not a penny in my pocket, recieved life saving surgery and didn't have to pay a dime because my state paid for it. Now, if poor people are unable to recieve care as many people claim then how in the heck did I recieve care?

I dont know about AZ, but in NY there is COBRA to cover this situation
Yes, COBRA is nationwide. To take advantage of it, you get to pay the full amount of the insurance. I was laid off a couple years ago and got to pay almost $800 per month. It's almost always cheaper to find someone else.

Of course, it's far from free. In fact, you pay for it even if you don't want to use it.
Specifically, I'm talking about the price of using it. Of course, nothing is actually "free."

As a Canadian, I pay higher taxs then my brethern to the south. But on the other hand, my country has public health care and education.

here is my problem-

currently i am covered by my employer. i am 9 months pregnant and am expecting at any time....i would have to pay $600 a month to get my child put on my insurance policy. the problem is....i make too much money to get assistance and yet would not have money to pay rent, car, insurance etc if i had to pay $600 a month for coverage. I would have to quit my job and move to a homeless shelter just to get my child covered. its a very stressful decision to have to make.

heres my question....should someone have to be forced to lose their job or become bankrupt in order to get health care coverage?

As a healthcare worker, I have come to believe that a couple of myths about the system in the United States are particularly problematic. One is that the reason malpractice insurance is expensive is that patients and lawyers prey on poor innocent doctors and get huge judgements. This is such amazing baloney, propagated by insurers and some doctors. In fact, the negligence and incompetence that patients let slide out of the pure kindness of their hearts is astonishing. Even those who sue generally do so after healthcare providers refused to make any effort to compensate them for serious, obvious mistreatment. Malpractice insurance is high because of two bizarre features of our healthcare culture: the virtual impossibility for a doctor to try to make things right with a patient injured by honest mistake, and the refusal of the medical community to act against the minority of its members who are so stupid and/or venal that they are a threat to the community.

Another costly and sometimes dangerous myth is that any necessary care must be delivered RIGHT AWAY. All we have to do to prove to ourselves that being made to wait for a medical procedure is not equivalent to abuse is to compare life expectancies in developed countries with universal healthcare with that of the US. Okay, so people in Canada, GB, Sweden, etc. have to wait for CABG's. Obviously, waiting doesn't kill them. We claim to have the best healthcare in the world in America, but what we really have is a whole lot of it in a big rush for people who can afford it but often don't much need it, while others in need are grossly undertreated.

We can do better than this, and we have to get busy and do it.

Phew. Sorry for going on so long.

The idea of medical care is not compatible, in my mind, with a capitalist system. The point of medical care is not to make money; it's to care for the patient. Yet doctors must and do compete in order to survive in the economy.

Universal healthcare would eliminate a system of competition in the medical community and, I think, promote care and research.