NationStates Jolt Archive

The only rule for this round is that no mystical or divine forces, such as the Jedi's "Force", or the chaos daemon's "Warp" are allowed. Otherwise, all technology and tactics are legal.

Sticking with my orignal argument, there's no way in hell any of those can beat:

The Federation, The Romulan Empire, The Klingon Empire, The Dominion, The Tholian Assembly, The Breen, The Cardassians, The Maquis, The Bajorans, The Changelings, The Remans, The Borg, Species 8472, etc.

ARRR! I MESSED IT UP!

The only rule is that no mystical or divine forces, such as the Jedi's "Force, are allowed.

So Paul Atreides would more or less suck.

Sticking with my orignal argument, there's no way in hell any of those can beat:

The Federation, The Romulan Empire, The Klingon Empire, The Dominion, The Tholian Assembly, The Breen, The Cardassians, The Maquis, The Bajorans, The Changelings, The Remans, The Borg, Species 8472, etc.
Stargate would put up a hell of a fight. Replicators can penetrate shields and take over ships. Can adapt to ANYTHING as long as one replicator survives. The Goa'uld have large forces with motherships housing fighters and bombers and big weapons. Then the Asgard and human adaptations. Then there are the wraith and ancient ships and races we havn't even seen the capabilities of.

You forgot discworld!!


:(:mad::(

And again, you forgot Hitchhikers.

No discworld, this is Sci-Fi, not fantasy.
No H2G2 because
A) Not enough options and
B) Other than the Vogon Deconstructer Fleet, and the Heart of Gold (if it were armed,) H2G2 would be doomed.

Still sticking with aliens. They can become parasitic in any large life form, they are highly adapted (survive in space, stay dormant, live underwater and have acid blood), and they would just mass everything.

How could the aliens take over the galaxy if they don't know how to build spaceships?

Ummm... What about that derelect crashed spaceship the colonists find in the beginning?

Woops. I didnt read before voting. Had I known that there were rules against mystical abilities, I wouldve voted for Warhammer 40k. I didnt read that initially, so I voted for Dune, because who can defeat the Tyrant: God-emperor Leto Atreides II?

How could the aliens take over the galaxy if they don't know how to build spaceships?
Exploration ship lands on a mysterious swampy planet. Crew gets infected, ship goes on auto-pilot to homeworld. Aliens reach the homeworld and overrun it. Desparate to escape, some ships don't check properly. Infection and auto pilot to another world. Aliens spread to many worlds. Other scouting vessels (*cough* Enterprise) discover the world, get infected...shall I continue?

Ummm... What about that derelect crashed spaceship the colonists find in the beginning?
Well, they also found the fossilized pilots of the spaceship. Why would you think the aliens had built the whole thing? They're nothing but parasites.

Exploration ship lands on a mysterious swampy planet. Crew gets infected, ship goes on auto-pilot to homeworld. Aliens reach the homeworld and overrun it. Desparate to escape, some ships don't check properly. Infection and auto pilot to another world. Aliens spread to many worlds. Other scouting vessels (*cough* Enterprise) discover the world, get infected...shall I continue?
What about the borg? Even if they ever got infected, how can the alien grow inside someone whose body's full of all kind of neat gadgets? There's not enough room...

Aliens wouldn't be able to defeat Star Trek because when away teams are beamed back onboard the ship, biofilters and scanners can detect the alien presence in their bodies and they would be sent directly to sickbay. If one of the aliens burst out of somebody and roamed the halls or the jeffries tubes, they would set up force fields and keep it in one place. Security teams would make their way to it and kill it.

btw, what would an alien do with a Goa'uld?
There's already someone inside so who'se the biggest badass? I think the alien would make a messy job out of it, no matter the psychic powers the Goa'uld have.

I don't know that you could take the mystic goony stuff out of Warhammer 40K and have it still be Warhammer...

Given that-Battlestar Gallactica is a refugee culture-they're so strung out that it's almost possible that a good flu strain could take them out. They really don't have a chance, it's almost cruel to put them on the list.

I have to say what I've always thought, all of these groups would end up just absorbed into the Warhammer conflicts and would be no more noticed than if you added five more wrestlers to a twenty wrestler Battle Royale...

I suppose you mean sci-fi nations/alliances? It's not as though the rebellion is going to get chummy with the Empire for some reason in StarWars...

Combat... Again, you need to specify what is combat. A war between nations/alliances? Two guys on the ground in standard-issue armor/equipment? Something in between?

In a war, I'd give it to StarWars hands down on basis of numbers, economy, speed, and firepower.

Numbers:
An entire galaxy, with numerous worlds having more than a trillion inhabbitants. 25,000 Star Destroyers, and millions of lighter capitol craft.

Economy. So stable that the value of the Credit appears to have stayed roughly the same for millenia. Capable of financing and building a 900-kilometer-wide battlestation in a matter of a few years. The economic wealth of an entire galaxy worth of internal trade. Market capitolist, which builds wealth like nothing else we know. The Empire could start with none of its fleet, and could still build enough of a fleet to steamrole most of the other scifi universes before taking significant losses.

Speed: Capable of crossing the galaxy in weeks, days, or hours. (Tatooine > Alderaan had to be somewhere in the area of 40,000 lightyears--rim world to core world.) Can do this only requiring knowledge of distance, direction, and what there is in the way that needs to be avoided.

Contrast to Voyager, that, even with help from the occasional godlike being and finally hijacking a Borg tunnel, took years to cross a single quadrant of the galaxy. Or to StarGate, that can cross vast distances very quickly, but can only send about three men per second, and require an operational Stargate on the other side. (I havn't seen SG1, so if this is just an illusion caused by the movie, let me know).

Firepower: Death Star destroyed entire planets with its own energy, supplying enough extra energy to knock most of the debris off screen in a matter of seconds. Suncrusher used a chain-reaction effect to destroy suns. Turbolasers vaporised asteroids in a single shot. Technical commentaries for episode 2 place the firepower of one of an Acclamator's turbolasers at several hundred gigatons of TNT. (100 gigatons = 100,000 megatons ~ 7,000,000 times the firepower of the bomb that levled Hiroshima). Contrast with proton torpedos with their mighty 4kg of matter/antimatter reaction--generating ~60 megatons of TNT.


EDIT: In terms of combat capabilities per soldier, WH40K takes it in a second. In terms of winning a war, though, space marines won't last long against orbital bombardment, and from what I know, they don't have powerful shielding to prevent it a la StarWars, and the less than 100,000 space marines won't stand up long to a military with militaries numbering in the billions of soldiers.


In terms of assimilating foreign technology. SW tech =/ ST tech. The borg aren't going to be able to analise and reproduce SW tech in time to make any use of it, given that it relies on materiels not yet developed in the ST universe--namely, "hypermatter", "tibanna", and "durasteel". You can't give an M-2 to a 18th century developer and expect the armies of the next decade to field automatic weapons, unless you also show him how to make the bullets, how to make steel using modern methods of running cold air over iron, how to make the chemical propellant that fires the weapon, the factories that cast the weapon and make interchangable assembly-line stile parts. The borg might be able to duplicate SW tech in a century or two of development, but facing an enemy with speed and numbers like the Empire, they're screwed.

The entire gig is that every universe joins together to fight every other one. So in the case of Star Wars, the Rebellion joins the Empire joins the Yuuzhan Vong. The various galaxies realize that there is a greater threat and so unite.

Maybe the Starwarsians realize that the Space Marines could crush the Rebellion, and then go on to the Empire, and so they band together.

Likewise, the Orks and Marines might realize that they'll be dead if they continue to fight, and so they band together against the Trekkies.

Or to StarGate, that can cross vast distances very quickly, but can only send about three men per second, and require an operational Stargate on the other side. (I havn't seen SG1, so if this is just an illusion caused by the movie, let me know).
Star Gate can send as many people as they want as far as they want provided the place has an active stargate and they have enough power. That is assumnig they are solely using the gate. They have ships with faster than light engines. Goa'uld ships are fairly powerful and that is to say nothing of Asgard vessels

Well, one scoutship in 40k can easily take out a planet... Talk about firepower!

Star Gate can send as many people as they want as far as they want provided the place has an active stargate and they have enough power. That is assumnig they are solely using the gate. They have ships with faster than light engines. Goa'uld ships are fairly powerful and that is to say nothing of Asgard vessels

How many people can you send at a time through a hole 2.5 meters in diameter?

Can you send a tank through? An artillery piece? A battleship?

Can 3 guys with a team-fed machinegun lay waste to an entire division of soldiers advancing through a bottleneck where they can't even see what's on the other side?

The Stargate is very useful for sending diplomats. It's nearly useless for anything else.
--

I don't know about the spaceships in question. How fast do they really go? What kind of firepower can they put out?

Apart from Aliens, anything which has large-scale capability to move entire fleets lightyears in minutes and can glass planets is gonna win. Any of them like that?

In 40k, entire planets can be nuked out of existance in a matter of seconds. All references to the planet are destroyed; within days, the planet is unforgoten, with no records or memories. Plus, their ships, while not overly fast, can continue to travel for practicly ever. They have the firepower of thousands of nuclear and hydrogen weapons, and nothing can stand in their way.

How many people can you send at a time through a hole 2.5 meters in diameter?

Can you send a tank through? An artillery piece? A battleship?

Can 3 guys with a team-fed machinegun lay waste to an entire division of soldiers advancing through a bottleneck where they can't even see what's on the other side?

The Stargate is very useful for sending diplomats. It's nearly useless for anything else.
--

I don't know about the spaceships in question. How fast do they really go? What kind of firepower can they put out?

You can send 3 people shoulder to shoulder at the low point and can send in waves of people. There is a Goa'uld fighter/bomber designed to go through the Stargate as well as Ancient fighter ships and Wraith fighter ships. And like I said, they have ships capable of interstellar travel and faster than lightspeed with the ability to transport either a whole army with Asgard transporters or a small squad with Goa'uld rings

Ships.
Goa'uld have ships with huge ass pyramids. Shielded. Fire a energized plasma kind of thing powered by Naquada (sp) which can produce a bomb with several times the power of a hydrogen bombs, several times being over a hundred I think. They also have fighters and bombers. Asgard have large capital ships with excellent shielding and firepower. Human have a mix of human and asgard weaponry, engines, and shielding. Asgard shields and hyperdrive with some weapons maybe. They have missile barrages probably with naquada warheads. Maybe magnetically driven bullets like in Homeworld. Also humans have advanced normal fighters with Goa'uld adaptations.

No discworld, this is Sci-Fi, not fantasy.
No H2G2 because
A) Not enough options and
B) Other than the Vogon Deconstructer Fleet, and the Heart of Gold (if it were armed,) H2G2 would be doomed.
You know you're wrong. Those Krikket robots in the cricket uniforms are pretty evil.....
You do know I was joking, right?

Borg...or species 8472...

Trek wins by a landslide

and species 8472 had a "planet killer" ship as well.

I have a serious one though. What about halo? MAC Guns, that planet buster bomb, those alien fleets that can obliterate a planet. Not to mention the actual halos themselves.

Borg...or species 8472...

Trek wins by a landslide

and species 8472 had a "planet killer" ship as well.
No one watch sar gate? Replicators or the Retu

No one watchs Star Gate? Replicators or the Retu.
Cows, I'm afraid I'm going to have to report you to the Grammar Police. (http://artpad.art.com/gallery/?ido7liwbe94)

Cows, I'm afraid I'm going to have to report you to the Grammar Police. (http://artpad.art.com/gallery/?ido7liwbe94)
Why am I being corrected by some one called Ramissle? Sounds like some ghetto slang word -_-

Its pronounced: Ram Iss Seal. There is no ghetto slang there. It does look like it though, doesn't it?

tribbles

or krenim time ship, which is invulnerable to all weapons

Dune.

On the ground, at least.

Some of you may say" Dntt 4g3t t3h J3di!!!111!!11!11!1". But I mean, come on. Have you forgot the Fremen? The Jedi would use "the force"(in other words, they'd hack like n00bs), but they wouldn't be able to find the Fremen. And when they did? Well, the Fremen would already have a thumper on the way.

Example:

"I see you, Fremen!"

*Fremen snicker*

"Are you laughin at me? ARE YOU LAUGHIN AT ME?"

*Jedi get's swallowed by Sand Worm*

"Yes, we are laughing at you."

Then you are gonna say "But what about the Storm Troopers? They will shoot j00 dead!"

Ahem, there are many groups that could take them out. The Fremen, the Face Dancers, and (most importantly) the Sardaukar. You can't beat the Sardaukar. They could kill any infantry from ANY universe.

"What about Luke Skywalker?" *sigh* Enter Leto Atreides the Second.

"I r L0k3 $kywk3r. 1 r cm3 t0 k1k j00r @$$."

*sigh*

"You are a sad, strange little man."

*Uses his worm power and the Weirding(sp?) Way to chop Luke into little pieces*

Ok, now that the Star Wars fans are scared, here comes the Trekkies. "But we have t3h federation!" Oh yeah, big whoop. How many planets are in that? I bet it's not 1,000,000 like the Corrino Empire. Not to mention, the Guild kicks any fleets arse, any day. Example:

On board the Enterprise

"Sir, enemy ship in range!"

"Hail them."

*guild Navigator comes up*

"E-gads! It's a fish person!"

*Guild Navigator gets angry."

"You insulted me..."

*bends space to transport the Enterprise into the sun. And the rest of the Federation Fleet while he's at it*

Thus the age-old question of Star Wars vs. Star Trek has been answered. Dune would kick both their areses.

No magic stupid crap.

No magic stupid crap.

Magic Stupid Crap?

Yeah, nothing majjek or soopanaturail.

Yeah, nothing majjek or soopanaturail.

Good bye, Star Wars.

Good Bye, Star Trek.

Good bye, Dune.

Good bye...

Uh, guys? All of these things have "magik" or "supernatural" things.

Good bye, Star Wars.

Good Bye, Star Trek.

Good bye, Dune.

Good bye...

Uh, guys? All of these things have "magik" or "supernatural" things.
Halo. Case closed.

Halo. Case closed.

Don't forget "The Flood."

Yes, they are aliens, but any alien life is considered "Supernatural". Thus meaning, no Sci-fi universes should be on this Poll.

Halo doesn't belong on the pole. They've got the same general ideas as WH40k, but inferior equipment.

I don't know much about WH40k, but I am fairly confident that it is the only one that stands up to Star Wars. I think SW's numerical advantage gives it a definate edge over WH40k, but I would need more info about 40k tech to know for sure.

Despite the fact that this is scewed from the outset--since you disregard entirely politics, which are about 70% of war....

I can't see anyone or any group from the StarGate universe winning against either WH40k or StarWars; they just don't have the neccessary demonstrated tactical capabilities. The mighty Gau-ould (spelling?) can't even stand up to 21st century marines; planetary bombardment is seemingly unheard of; I have yet to see a force field; the Stargate itsself is absolutely usless in war, unless you control both sides of it (in which case you really don't have any use for it, do you...?); I have yet to see an empire spanning more than a few dozen worlds.
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Dune...
Without "magic", Dune doesn't stand a chance. Give them "magic", and they probably win, though I'm not certain.

As far as a land war goes...
What the hell are you talking about? If you can't conquer Arakis with infantry, glass the place, cut it up, and sell it as greenhouse windows on planet Rupert.
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Star Trek
Lacks the firepower, numbers, speed of travel, and defensive capabilities to stand up to either Star Wars or WH40k.
Step 1: Take a couple Star Destroyers. Put them someplace in interstellar space, where a 1 mile-long spaceship won't be noticed among countless millions of cubic miles of empty space.
Step 2: Charge up the hyperdrive and point it at Earth.
Step 3: Drop out of hyperspace next to earth, with the top of the ships facing California and Japan, respectively.
Step 4: Glass San Fransisco with a single shot. Bye-bye Federation government. While at it, lay waste to major population centers on Earth. By the time the Feddies figure out what's going on, their government and military headquarters is in ashes, and half of earth's population is gone. Whether trek weaponry is good enough to destroy wars ships is irrelivant; Wars firepower is beyond doubt.
Step 5: Hyperjump out of there.
Step 6: Since the entire galaxy has been united and there is suddenly no need for anti-piracy forces or anything of the sort, call up the news reports on the other 12,500 simultanious attacks against planets that, "tragically" have not been outfitted with shielding.

You can't win when your enemy can penetrate your borders and wipe out your homeland, then leave before you have a chance to do anything about it. Maybe Trek stands a chance as a guerrilla force. But by then... you've already lost, havn't you?

No force field in stargate? What have you seen? The movie and first episode? All vessels have shields in addition to large weapons. Star Wars vessels are NOT shielded and only have laser beams, not even laser cannons except for the Death Star which doesn't exactly track well. Its meant to destroy planets, not anything that can move in a nondefinate manner. They don't focus on the empire but the various Goa'uld control whole regions of space and the Asgard protect various areas.
Goa'uld have only been beaten by the SGC due to the Good Guy always pwns Bad Guy fantasy rule. They are only beaten by sabotage, never direct confrontation. Stargate vessels also have cloaking technology, well the ones upgraded to have it.

No force field in stargate? What have you seen? The movie and first episode? All vessels have shields in addition to large weapons.
--My mistake. I meant planetary/theatre shields. And I've seen the movie (Stargate, not SG1) and 5-10 episodes.

Star Wars vessels are NOT shielded
--Watch Star Wars again...
Every Star Wars ship seen onscreen with the exception of TIE Fighters and land vehicles have shields. I can't see how someone can watch Star Wars and not think the ships have shields...

and only have laser beams, not even laser cannons
--Turbolasers aren't lasers. Neither are blasters. Neither are 'laser cannons'. They don't travel in beams, they don't travel at C, they have obviously visible kinetic energy. Star Wars weaponry isn't lasers any more than it is an iron tube using a chemical explosive to propell a heavy chunk of metal at a target--the original meaning of cannon.


except for the Death Star which doesn't exactly track well. Its meant to destroy planets, not anything that can move in a nondefinate manner.
--The Death Star II was seen onscreen to destroy two rebel capitol ships with its superlaser in episode 7. It can fire off-axis. Both the DSI and DSII were designed, however, to destroy planets, which makes them very effective against an enemy that has few of them to lose.



They don't focus on the empire but the various Goa'uld control whole regions of space and the Asgard protect various areas.
--I controll a whole region of space: my house, my front lawn, and my back yard. Specify 'region' please...


Goa'uld have only been beaten by the SGC due to the Good Guy always pwns Bad Guy fantasy rule. They are only beaten by sabotage, never direct confrontation.
--In the matter of infantry, Goa'uld are worthless. They are easily visible, not terribly mobile, their weaponry is on par with, not superior to, earth counterparts, they carry one weapon and two light explosives, their armor appears to not stop bullets effectively.

Stargate vessels also have cloaking technology, well the ones upgraded to have it.
--The same goes for SW vessels. Everything from fightercraft to battleships to shipyard complexes millions of cubic kilometers in volume have been cloaked.

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Dune...
Without "magic", Dune doesn't stand a chance. Give them "magic", and they probably win, though I'm not certain.

As far as a land war goes...
What the hell are you talking about? If you can't conquer Arakis with infantry, glass the place, cut it up, and sell it as greenhouse windows on planet Rupert.
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It's not "magic". It's Genetic Mutation. It's far more believeable than most of these other sereis. I mean, at least Dune doesn't have Alien Empires, fuzzy bear people, men who wear bathroom robes and slash pumped-up flashlights around, and have men who have pointy ears.

Ahhh, but Dune has some of the best defences ever. The fleet, I'll admit, sucks at attacking, but it could easily defend itself from n00ks.

And in Land Combat, Dune still kicks all other groups asses.

Star Trek
Lacks the firepower, numbers, speed of travel, and defensive capabilities to stand up to either Star Wars or WH40k.
Step 1: Take a couple Star Destroyers. Put them someplace in interstellar space, where a 1 mile-long spaceship won't be noticed among countless millions of cubic miles of empty space.
Step 2: Charge up the hyperdrive and point it at Earth.
Step 3: Drop out of hyperspace next to earth, with the top of the ships facing California and Japan, respectively.
Step 4: Glass San Fransisco with a single shot. Bye-bye Federation government. While at it, lay waste to major population centers on Earth. By the time the Feddies figure out what's going on, their government and military headquarters is in ashes, and half of earth's population is gone. Whether trek weaponry is good enough to destroy wars ships is irrelivant; Wars firepower is beyond doubt.
Step 5: Hyperjump out of there.
Step 6: Since the entire galaxy has been united and there is suddenly no need for anti-piracy forces or anything of the sort, call up the news reports on the other 12,500 simultanious attacks against planets that, "tragically" have not been outfitted with shielding.

You can't win when your enemy can penetrate your borders and wipe out your homeland, then leave before you have a chance to do anything about it. Maybe Trek stands a chance as a guerrilla force. But by then... you've already lost, havn't you?

The illogical notion that Star Trek lacks firepower HIGHLY false. Star Trek has some of theeee best firepower of all sci-fi. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a single solitary type 2 handphaser has enough firepower to blow up several buildings. Shipmounted phasers are WAY WAY more powerful than turbolasers from Star Wars. As for the numbers, you have to include all races from the Star Trek galaxy from all quadrants, that's a shitfuckingload. Their speed of travel is slower that Star Wars, but scientists from Star Trek could probably come up with a way to prevent hyperspace travel near the vicinity of their planets or other points of interest.

At sublight speeds I think Star Trek wins, the speeds that I have read are just higher. Star Trek shields are also VERY fucking powerful. Star Wars and WH40K are SOOOOOOOOO primitive compared to Star Trek, especially in weapons and defensive technology. The ONLY advantage Star Wars has is the sheer numbers, but they would eventually get mowed down by the FAR superior firepower of Star Trek.

The illogical notion that Star Trek lacks firepower HIGHLY false. Star Trek has some of theeee best firepower of all sci-fi. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a single solitary type 2 handphaser has enough firepower to blow up several buildings. Shipmounted phasers are WAY WAY more powerful than turbolasers from Star Wars. As for the numbers, you have to include all races from the Star Trek galaxy from all quadrants, that's a shitfuckingload. Their speed of travel is slower that Star Wars, but scientists from Star Trek could probably come up with a way to prevent hyperspace travel near the vicinity of their planets or other points of interest.

At sublight speeds I think Star Trek wins, the speeds that I have read are just higher. Star Trek shields are also VERY fucking powerful. Star Wars and WH40K are SOOOOOOOOO primitive compared to Star Trek, especially in weapons and defensive technology. The ONLY advantage Star Wars has is the sheer numbers, but they would eventually get mowed down by the FAR superior firepower of Star Trek.


...And Star Trek would be defeated because they'd all get high on Spice.

Ahhh yes, Spice. The Besterest drug ever! It turns your eyes a funky blue, you can do uber-ly uber things, und you can sell it for a small fortune!

I stand by that after all is said and done, most everyone is dead, and a victor seems apparent... a chestburster will do what it does best.

I stand by that after all is said and done, most everyone is dead, and a victor seems apparent... a chestburster will do what it does best.

Exactly how could it win? If it tried to get onboard a Star Trek starship it would be under detection at all times. If a chestburster wasn't surgically removed before it came out, it would be trapped and confined by forcefields. To make things even worse for aliens, the crew could just beam it off the ship into space. No contest, not even in the slightest.

Star Wars vessels are NOT shielded
--Watch Star Wars again...
Every Star Wars ship seen onscreen with the exception of TIE Fighters and land vehicles have shields. I can't see how someone can watch Star Wars and not think the ships have shields...
Probably due to the fact everything I have seen involves explosions where stuff is hitting the hull

And there is always the problems with replicators...

"The illogical notion that Star Trek lacks firepower HIGHLY false. Star Trek has some of theeee best firepower of all sci-fi. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a single solitary type 2 handphaser has enough firepower to blow up several buildings."
Episode name and number, screenshots please?

"Shipmounted phasers are WAY WAY more powerful than turbolasers from Star Wars. "
Strange, considdering that the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual states that each phaser emetter has 5.1 MW, times 200 emmitters per main phaser array =~1E9W per main phaser. The Enterprise-D has 2 of these plus 3 of about half size.
The Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections gives a firepower of 6 megatons TNT for the Acclamator Troop Transport's light guns (of which it has 24), and 200 gigatons for the heavy guns (of which it has 12).

I'll ignore the big guns for now, since firing times are unknown.
6 megatons TNT =~ 2.5E16 joules
We don't have much info on the fireing speed of these, but the light turbolasers we have seen fire about once per 2 seconds. This gives a power output per light turbolaser of
~1.25E16W per cannon~3E17W. Putting the firepower of the Acclamator Troop Transport at some 100,000,000 times that of Enterprise-D.

Happy?


"As for the numbers, you have to include all races from the Star Trek galaxy from all quadrants, that's a shitfuckingload. "
And how do you propose they go about recruiting these different races into a coherant military unit, when their governments span a hundred or two worlds and it takes a century to cross the galaxy?

"Their speed of travel is slower that Star Wars, but scientists from Star Trek could probably come up with a way to prevent hyperspace travel near the vicinity of their planets or other points of interest."
Possibly a gravity-well projector ship could be created a la the Interdictor Cruiser. It will take time, research, and a new design of ship. Time is one thing they very much lack, and would require a great number of ships to be effective (since you have to put it far enough from your worlds to not cause massive tidal forces, you have to have a lot of them--the classic problem of defence, cubed).

At sublight speeds I think Star Trek wins, the speeds that I have read are just higher. Star Trek shields are also VERY fucking powerful. Star Wars and WH40K are SOOOOOOOOO primitive compared to Star Trek, especially in weapons and defensive technology. The ONLY advantage Star Wars has is the sheer numbers, but they would eventually get mowed down by the FAR superior firepower of Star Trek."

Sticking with my orignal argument, there's no way in hell any of those can beat:

The Federation, The Romulan Empire, The Klingon Empire, The Dominion, The Tholian Assembly, The Breen, The Cardassians, The Maquis, The Bajorans, The Changelings, The Remans, The Borg, Species 8472, etc.

Easy. The Star Trek universe simply does not understand simple tactics. Any opponent who does kicks their ass.

(BTW, banning magic powers outlaws a lot of Trek "Tech"...)

Nothing could stand before the God Emperor and Fremen.

Starcraft.

A single Protoss capital ship can incinerate a large planet (refer to Starcraft manual)

Doctor Who defeats all! :D

NOTE: I didn't take into considderation that phasers may increase their effective 'firepower' by means of the odd disappearing action they cause (if the person were vapourised, we'd see a lot more vapour, eh?). I know this is the case in hand phasers against low-density materiels like cloth and flesh. I have, however, seen little evidence for its usefullness against strong materials like neutronium, 'tritanium', and 'durasteel'.

At most, I would revise my estimate of trek real firepower up by an order of magnitude for anti-hull, and not at all for anti-shield (since there's no matter in a sheild for it to do its magic on).

Even so that leaves us with a troop transport with millions of times the firepower of the Enterprise-D.



EDIT:
I found a useful thread debating WH40k vs StarWars. It looks to me like it'll be a close fight, but SW fleet strength and the presence of planetary shielding (stated in episode 5 to be capable of withstanding an orbittal bombardment by Vader's fleet for an extended period of time; I can find quotes if you want) gives it the advantage.

If you give 40k its 'magic' (psy powers), it gains a tremendous boost in capabilities, even if you give StarWars its 'magic' (Force). With magic, it's going to be a lot harder for StarWars to win.

If, for some reason, all the non-magic creatures in 40k allied, they're still not likely to win, though they put up a hell of a fight. Even if they manage to overcome the innate logistical problems of coordinating a massive alliance of almost-hostile nations.

If you give 40k magic, and all creatures, magic and non-magic, somehow ally under a single leader, they defeat Star Wars, but the victory comes at the cost of losing most of their nonmagic population to orbital bombardment--in other words, a lose-lose result.
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In the end, if one takes the original premises of the poll--no magic--one strips 40k of its only advantage.

40k has weaponry on about the same scale as StarWars; though significantly weaker (about an order of magnitude), its good enough to mean that any fight between fleets is going to have heavy casualties on both sides.

40k has much slower faster-than-light travel than StarWars(with the exception of Necrons, who fall under magic and are disqualified--again, the results are skewed by the conditions of the debate). Though it is comparable enough that 40k's fleets stay effecive, it gives SW the ability to dictate the time and place of most engagements, a tremendous advantage.

40k has a disunified galaxy, even if you ally them, you're not going to be anywhere near as effective with a hastily-assembled alliance as with a galaxy-wide already established war machine.

The big one: 40k lacks effective planetary shielding, and apparently lacks the firepower to break Wars's planetary shielding. This means that vital SW planets survive the counterattack, while vital 40k planets can be targetted and their surface anihilated by orbital bombardment or by use of a Death Star.

EDIT: oops...forgot to link to the site. I'll see if I can find it again.... watch this space.

EDIT: Ah-HA! http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=60102&start=0

You left out Gundam!

Just to note - no one has even attempted to refute my assertations re Starship Troopers superiority...

I smell a default win...

Maybe if you had actually made assertions, rather than voting on the pole and expecting someone to 'refute' it, you would have an arguement. But you don't. I've never watched Starship Troopers, never read Starship Troopers.

But I'll put up the thing to beat:
Light weapon firepower over time with in the order of 1E16W (that's ten thousand billion kilowatts) per cannon, firing in 6 megaton TNT shots about once every two seconds.

Heavy weapon firepower with a low-end estimate of 1E21J per shot per cannon (that's 200 gigatons, the given figure for firepower per shot per cannon of the acclamator troop transport). Reload time not known. Note that the 8 big dual turbolasers on a Star Destroyer, make the big guns on the Acclamator look like tinker toys, and are likely several orders of magnitude more powerful. Remember, we're dealing with an obselite transport compared to a state of the art battlecruiser 4 times its volume.

Comparable shielding and hull strength. I'd estimate the capacity of shields on a Star Destroyer from a full charge at about 10 terratons TNT, and hull strength at about 100 kilotons per square meter. These are guesses based on observations of ship survivability onscreen and knowlege of firepower. I made these guesses on the spot, and their accuracy is not certain. But I think they're probably right to within 2 orders of magnitude.

Ground-based weaponry capable of incapacitating a ship with the above defenses in one or two shots (hoth ion cannon).

Ground-based shielding capable of withstanding for an extended period of time (possibly indefinately) a bombardment of the above firepower by many turbolasers and many ships.

Faster-than-light speeds in excess of 1E6c (a million times the speed of light). http://www.theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#speed

Communications speeds on the order of 1E11c (a trillion times the speed of light, derived from the speed it would take to have real-time communication between the core (palpatine) and the rim (vader). (50000 light years ~ 1.5E12 light seconds, and vader and palpatine were communicating in real time, with no visible lag. 1E11 would give a ten second lag time between the sender and the reciever, and we can see palpatine nodding to himself as vader talks, in real time, suggesting a speed of 3E12c or more.)

Accelleration in excess of 5000Gs http://www.stardestroyer.net/AOTC/Revelations-2.html

A united population in excess of a quadrillion.

So, if you think our friendly bug-swatting battallions can beat this... go right ahead and start providing estimates.

EDIT: fixed a few spelling mistakes and an extra zero at the end of one of my numbers.

NOTE: Math was done on the fly with a pocket calculator. There may be an error here and there. If people actually start to debate rationally, I'll check my work. If not, I'll declare victory and leave.

The Planet of Krikkit from the HitchHiker's Guide series could kick the asses of all of those universes put together.

Granted, though they'd probably die in the process.

even w/o magick, 40k is still gonna win, especially with chaos and eldar ships on the same side,somehow.
on the issue of speed, travelling through the warp doesnot constitute magik, therby making it the fastest form of travel around. star wars is fast, but is limited by the fact that the ships remain in this plain of reality. there is not a single other universe that takes the hyperuniversal travel into effect, making them the fastest.also, eldar have the ability to warp around pretty much at will, allowing them to dump a massive amount of stuff onto the battlefield at any given time, a humongous tactical advantagage.
if the fighting somehow came down to ground based combat, im pretty theres no chance 40k could lose. the range and ability of the vehicles and troops is simply unmatched.
i still dont understand how u can think 40k firepower is 'weak'. its huge! some of it even rips apart space-time. it doesnt get a whole lot more powerful than that.

btw were discounting the ability of many races to get on ships and mess up the ppl onboard, in any case of invasion.
tactically also, if every single 40k race is fighting the same enemy, they can remain ununfied, wich makes it hard to defeat because u have so many dif stratagems and races coming at u totally incoherently. any onslaught from 2 or more races would destroy sw, the only one that stands a chance

Considering that Mobile Suits (let alone Gundams) were designed to be superior to any starfighter known at the time of Gundam, I'd say that an MS would fare pretty well against most starfighters.

Capital ships are another matter however - while Gundam capital ships pack a punch for their size, they are puny compared to something like a Star Destroyer. I mean, the Super Star Destroyer Executor kinda makes the Archangel battleship look kinda puny...

The only other Gundam advantage I see is that it's a lot more realistic than Star Wars...

Alright everyone I have been reading these threads for a while now and I have come to a conclusion. First lets set up the scenario

Scenario:
(1) Universes are clashing, complete unity in every one. Battle is for dominance over all other universes
(2) No supernatural/magic
(3) All out war.

Then let us look at the respective universes briefly. A question mark means I am not sure. I first name the dominant cultures/races, then their basic war utilities. I do not know every universe like the back of my hand tho.:

(SW) Star Wars - The Empire, Yuuzhan Vong, Hapes Consortium, Old and New Republic. Shields, lasers, world destroyers, ftl drives.

(ST) Star Trek - The Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulans, Breen, Borg, Species 8472. Shields, lasers, world destroyers, time travel, ftl drives.

(BSG) Battlestar Galactica - Cylons. Thick bulkheads, thermonuclear weapons, insanely fast fighters, fast replication.

(STroop) Starship Troopers - Humans, alien-insects. Massive armies, shields or thick bulkheads?, ftl drives?

Dune - A universe composed of double, if not triple, the amount of beings SW or ST has. Shields? Bulk heads? FTL drives.

(SC) Starcraft - Zerg, Humans, Protoss. Lasers, guns, nukes, fast replication, ftl drives in some cases.

(War40k) Warhammer 40k - A universe composed of double, if not triple, the amount of beings SW or ST has. Shields? Bulk heads? FTL drives.

(SG) Stargate - Asgard, Goul'd, Humans, Ancients, Replicators. Lasers, multiple types of FTL drives, shields, world destroyers.

(B5) Babylon 5 - A universe composed of double, if not triple, the amount of beings SW or ST has. Shields, multiple types of FTL drives, lasers.

(AQ) Alien Quadrilogy - Humans, Predators, Aliens. Shields? Lasers? FTL drives? Guns.
- I do not know much, or anything, about Dune, STroop, War40k, and AQ. So this is a very biased report-

Thank you for either reading all of that or jumping down to this. So we find ourselves with ten universes united and fighting to win the war for complete dominance over all other universes.

The first problem is coordination, this would slowly cause the unified universes to despise their friends. Next we come upon the problem that universes like SW, Dune, War40k, B5, oh and ST have numerous races, technologies, and fighting styles. This leaves BSG's Cylons (and 49,999 humans), STroop, SC, SG, and AQ as the under dog's.

Why? Although BSG has Cylons, they only have thirteen worlds and a minor space navy compared to any other universe.
STroop just involves humans and alien-insects. The humans use guns and bombs, the aliens are just badass. How long could STroop stand against the might of War40k or even a bombardment from the Cylons?
SC has the respected Protoss, Zerg, and Terran, but how long can a united Protoss-Zerg-Terran attack on a BORG stronghold or a B5 base last? Even worse, how long could the SC defense last against a combined offense from STroop?
SG is a trump card for the underdogs, they have the replicators, Ancients, Wraith and Goul'd, and the Asgards. To bad SW, War40k, or even ST could overrun major SG bases in days.
AQ is a deadly opponent. Spawn enough Alien Queens and hide them. Then get those queens a-rolling and you have a very hard world to overrun, especially if that world has key resources you want. Unfortunately, SG doesn't want AQ's resources and could wipe AQ out after an intense struggle. Lets not even mention what War40k could do.

We looked at the underdogs and know how weak they are, but the stronger universes have a main flaw I wish totake advantage of: the desire for complete power. The BORG, Species 8472, Yuuzhan Vong, various races in Dune, the Shadow in B5, and aliens in AQ all want to either kill everything or take over everything.

After a few engagements between all the universes and their races, the BORG find that it is tactically wise to create an Alliance with the Cylon (BSG), and the replicators (SG). Soon, the Zerg (SC), Aliens (AQ), Goul'd(SG), Alien-insects (STroop), Yuuzhan Vong(SW), and Species 8472(ST) all agree to unite for mutual reasons. (actually those universes I just listed would have split into 2 respective alliances, not just one big conglomerate, but I don't wanna think about that)
The crap has hit the fan and is all over the room. With the replicators and genetic wisdom of the Cylons, the BORG can assimilate anything and just keep attacking no matter what. Plus they can do a LOT of covert operations (no one looks under their sofa for a replicator, no one checks to make sure that the woman they are making love to is not a Cylon). On the other side, the "Biological" alliance has a great ability in covert operations (AQ aliens and SG Goul'd can hide in a humanoid). Many worlds could be taken without a single shot being fired simply through covert operations. And don't forget the military might of the Yuuzhan Vong and Species 8472.

Lets take a refreshing moment to look at the actions of the other races. Obviously a Human-Terran wide alliance would be pushed through. Soon the Federation humans, the Empire, Old and New Republics, SG humans, SC terrans, STroop humans, BSG refugees, Dune, War40k, B5 humans, and of course the humans from AQ (although they might not be allowed in on the grounds that some of them could be infected).

More later.

Maybe if you had actually made assertions, rather than voting on the pole and expecting someone to 'refute' it, you would have an arguement. But you don't. I've never watched Starship Troopers, never read Starship Troopers.

But I'll put up the thing to beat:
Light weapon firepower over time with in the order of 1E16W (that's ten thousand billion kilowatts) per cannon, firing in 6 megaton TNT shots about once every two seconds.

Heavy weapon firepower with a low-end estimate of 1E21J per shot per cannon (that's 200 gigatons, the given figure for firepower per shot per cannon of the acclamator troop transport). Reload time not known. Note that the 8 big dual turbolasers on a Star Destroyer, make the big guns on the Acclamator look like tinker toys, and are likely several orders of magnitude more powerful. Remember, we're dealing with an obselite transport compared to a state of the art battlecruiser 4 times its volume.

Comparable shielding and hull strength. I'd estimate the capacity of shields on a Star Destroyer from a full charge at about 10 terratons TNT, and hull strength at about 100 kilotons per square meter. These are guesses based on observations of ship survivability onscreen and knowlege of firepower. I made these guesses on the spot, and their accuracy is not certain. But I think they're probably right to within 2 orders of magnitude.

Ground-based weaponry capable of incapacitating a ship with the above defenses in one or two shots (hoth ion cannon).

Ground-based shielding capable of withstanding for an extended period of time (possibly indefinately) a bombardment of the above firepower by many turbolasers and many ships.

Faster-than-light speeds in excess of 1E6c (a million times the speed of light). http://www.theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#speed

Communications speeds on the order of 1E11c (a trillion times the speed of light, derived from the speed it would take to have real-time communication between the core (palpatine) and the rim (vader). (50000 light years ~ 1.5E12 light seconds, and vader and palpatine were communicating in real time, with no visible lag. 1E11 would give a ten second lag time between the sender and the reciever, and we can see palpatine nodding to himself as vader talks, in real time, suggesting a speed of 3E12c or more.)

Accelleration in excess of 5000Gs http://www.stardestroyer.net/AOTC/Revelations-2.html

A united population in excess of a quadrillion.

So, if you think our friendly bug-swatting battallions can beat this... go right ahead and start providing estimates.

EDIT: fixed a few spelling mistakes and an extra zero at the end of one of my numbers.

NOTE: Math was done on the fly with a pocket calculator. There may be an error here and there. If people actually start to debate rationally, I'll check my work. If not, I'll declare victory and leave.

Well, if you'd read the either version 1 of this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=406833&page=1&pp=40) or the condensed version of my post above, you'd know that my assertion was that Starship Troopers (in the book, not the movie) focus on a realistic military utilizing actual organization and tactics. Of the universes on both polls, only Starship Troopers, Aliens, and W40K present a military that actually thinks and acts like a military. Star Wars certainly beats Trek in that department, but take away the magic (as this thread asks) and Starship Troopers wins by superior organization and tactics. (I count a lot of Star Wars "tech" as magic, not just the force.)

(STroop) Starship Troopers - Humans, alien-insects. Massive armies, shields or thick bulkheads?, ftl drives?


STroop just involves humans and alien-insects. The humans use guns and bombs, the aliens are just badass. How long could STroop stand against the might of War40k or even a bombardment from the Cylons?


Yep, STroopers has FTL capable ships. But you missed a really big one - the MI armor suit (as portrayed in the books, not the stupid POS Verhoeven tried to pawn off on the world).
The powered armor is vacuum proofed, able to support a trooper for extended operations has extensive sensor and comm gear, and increases the wearer's strength and mobility (a trooper can hit close to 40 mph while "on the bounce"). It can also withstand a nearby small nuclear blast. The MI also has a range of weapons, including 2 kinds of flamers, a rocket launcher that can fire 2 kilogram nuclear warheads, a Y-rack bomb launcher, and others.

You forgot discworld!!


:(:mad::(

not sci fi

Considering that Mobile Suits (let alone Gundams) were designed to be superior to any starfighter known at the time of Gundam, I'd say that an MS would fare pretty well against most starfighters.

Capital ships are another matter however - while Gundam capital ships pack a punch for their size, they are puny compared to something like a Star Destroyer. I mean, the Super Star Destroyer Executor kinda makes the Archangel battleship look kinda puny...

The only other Gundam advantage I see is that it's a lot more realistic than Star Wars...

"Since the P-51 Mustang was the best long-range escort fighter of WWII, the P-51 Mustang will fare pretty well against most jet fighters."

um...
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Dstalia, you have wasted 5 minutes of my life reading that thread and finding that you said nothing more than you said here. I want them back!


First: Ground weaponry means absolutely nothing (a) unless you can get troops on the ground of a hostile target or (b) unless your enemy lacks the firepower to glass your world from orbit and (c) unless your enemy has a need for something that they can only get on your planet (like a forward base).

Second: When dealing with two galaxies that have some semblance of tactics (namely Star Wars and Starship Troopers), the difference in tactical skill will only be important if the technical abilities of both galaxies are close to one another. The Zulus vs the Brits, or the Vietnamese vs the Americans seem like they are exceptions to this...but they aren't.

A zulu soldier can move at 3km/hr in a forest or 6km/hr on a road. So can a brit. A Brit can kill a target from a range of 50m with reasonable consistancy, and with some consistancy at 70m. A Zulu can kill a target fromm 2 meters with reasonable consistancy, and can kill with some consistancy at 50m A Zulu can cross 50m in 6 seconds running hard. A Brit can fire once every 9-12 seconds. At 2 meters, a Brit and a Zulu are evenly matched. Etc.

Put the modern British army in the place of its enlightenment-era counterpart, though, and the Zulus get massacred. It's not even a fight. The Zulus just lack the firepower and defensive abilities to combat their enemies.
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So, what am I getting at...
NUMBERS, and HOW THOSE NUMBERS WERE DERIVED. If you want to say that troopers will beat Wars (or anybody else for that matter), don't base it on their superior tactics. Base it on demonstrations that their capabilities in space-space, ground-space, and space-ground are roughly equal to StarWars's. If you can't manage that, do the following:
demonstrate that for some reason the differences won't make a difference, or demonstrate that for some reason, Star Wars will be forced into a land war.

If you can't do that, you have no business asserting military superiority of Starship Troopers.
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Regarding "Star Wars tech is superadvanced therefore it is magic therefore you can't use it". If you disregard any technology so advanced that modern science can't explain it, you can't have faster-than-light travel and the debate becomes meaningless.

The opposite side is true. If you take magic as things that can't work or arn't explained (or have explanations that don't work--Trek is a great source for these) you still leave most of the 'magic' in the respective universes.

For instance, the Force is semi-magic. It violates the laws of physics and our understanding of biology (free energy, action without reaction, psycic powers). It is, however, semiexplained as an "energy field generated by life" that can be tapped into by "mediclorians".
Incidentally, that's about as viable as the following:

Phasers (or insert other random Trek technology)! They come with free energy: momentum (a man goes flying backwards when hit) without recoil. So where does the energy come from? Subspace. And what is subspace? A "parallel universe" that can be tapped into by "quantum somethingoranothers." Therefore Trek, since their phasers don't pass the criteria of the pole, must use only proton torpedos and ramming, since we can see how they work; therefore, they lose. Oops.

Stupid frigging poll...
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Dstalia, don't be a git. If its quantifyable, it's valid. And given that I've nicely quantified SW for you, maybe you ought to try reasonably refute some of my arguements. With numbers.

Scenario:
(1) Universes are clashing, complete unity in every one. Battle is for dominance over all other universes
(2) No supernatural/magic
(3) All out war.
*snip*

First, I thank you for your refreshingly more-realistic view of the political side of this.

I do have a few gripes, though...

1: It should be either ununified governments (thus the arguement hopefully comes down to a few potential winners based on numbers and tech, then goes to a debate about the politics of it), or the strongest government that would likely take part in a war, at the height of its power, disregarding its existing enemies. That's part of what's screwed up about this debate, and you seem to agree with me on the essentials of it.

It should be one vs. one. Many together and it becomes an altogether different method.

2: If you take 1 as I give it, this solves itsself. Trek gets betazoids and thus limited mind reading powers. Wars gets Force users, and thus limited mind reading powers, plus some ESP, and a little bit of second sight. Trek does NOT get Q, since Q shows no history of consistantly siding with the Federation, and has no apparent tendancy toward war. WH40k gets the Emperor and librarians, or it gets the Necrons. But not both at once, unless they ally themselves for some reason.

3: sounds fine to me.

I'd add a 4:
Both sides start with a complete knowledge of the capabilities of the enemy's technology. Trekkers won't be surprised that Warsers can outfly them in hyperspace. Warsers won't be surprised by transporters. Etc.

And a 5:
Both sides get one month advance notice. They can use this to organise their forces, to rush equipment to the front to counteract some of the enemy technologies, etc. They don't get to develop any new technology in this time, but they can modify existing technologies, and invent new machines to use them. Their rate of production must equal what it was before they found out about the attacking fleet, but they can consentrate it on different things. (For instance, Wars can change up its production of small-scale ECM to counteract transporters, but it can't build a warp inhibitor, and it can't double its output of warships. Trek can modify its artificial gravity producer to make some sort of gravity well projector a la the interdictor cruiser, but it can't build a massive new interdictor powered with a dozen warp cores to use the technology, and it can't double its output of warships.)

None of them can beat The Doctor and his Gallifreyan allies! Go Timelords! After all, they can travel back in time and smoke your butt.