NationStates Jolt Archive

The actual ultraliberist and xenophobe italian government has just passed 43 amenments that effectively removes the check and balances from the constitution.

All attempts from the opposition to stop this crime were vain, the last hope is the referendum but it will be facing 90% of media under control of prime minister berlusconi.

It seems that some people never learns, we're going to get something very close to what happened 80 years ago, democracy falls for the second time in Italy.

Amen

Go ahead, blame it on Bush. You know you want to.

The actual ultraliberist and xenophobe italian government has just passed 43 amenments that effectively removes the check and balances from the constitution.

All attempts from the opposition to stop this crime were vain, the last hope is the referendum but it will be facing 90% of media under control of prime minister berlusconi.

It seems that some people never learns, we're going to get something very close to what happened 80 years ago, democracy falls for the second time in Italy.

Amen

Source?

Go ahead, blame it on Bush. You know you want to.

No, sadly this is an all italian concoted matter.

Go ahead, blame it on Bush. You know you want to.

Bush ordered U.S. soldiers to shoot that Italian hostage in Iraq to outrage the Italian people, creating discontent. The purpose of this was to allow Berlusconi to gain popularity by pulling his troops out of Iraq, as a political smokescreen so that no one would notice he appointed himself dictator.

Not bad, eh? I'm learning from the liberals already. :)

Source?

www.unita.it if you can read italian

Bush ordered U.S. soldiers to shoot that Italian hostage in Iraq to outrage the Italian people, creating outrage. The purpose of this was to allow Berlusconi to gain popularity by pulling his troops out of Iraq, as a political smokescreen so that no one would notice he appointed himself dictator.

Not bad, eh? I'm learning from the liberals already. :)

No, there's not enough "Michael Moore" flavor in that. Put something in about how the Bush and Berlusconi families have had ties for 30 years, and conspired with the Bin Ladens to take over Italy...

The actual ultraliberist and xenophobe italian government has just passed 43 amenments that effectively removes the check and balances from the constitution.

All attempts from the opposition to stop this crime were vain, the last hope is the referendum but it will be facing 90% of media under control of prime minister berlusconi.

It seems that some people never learns, we're going to get something very close to what happened 80 years ago, democracy falls for the second time in Italy.

Amen

what actually is berlusconi doing?

www.unita.it if you can read italian

That's the problem: I can't read Italian. :(

No, there's not enough "Michael Moore" flavor in that. Put something in about how the Bush and Berlusconi families have had ties for 30 years, and conspired with the Bin Ladens to take over Italy...
do you doubt that the binLadens and the Bushes are chummy?

The actual ultraliberist and xenophobe italian government has just passed 43 amenments that effectively removes the check and balances from the constitution.

All attempts from the opposition to stop this crime were vain, the last hope is the referendum but it will be facing 90% of media under control of prime minister berlusconi.

It seems that some people never learns, we're going to get something very close to what happened 80 years ago, democracy falls for the second time in Italy.

Amen

And I thought that European forms of government were superior!

do you doubt that the binLadens and the Bushes are chummy?
Yes.

The actual ultraliberist and xenophobe italian government has just passed 43 amenments that effectively removes the check and balances from the constitution.

All attempts from the opposition to stop this crime were vain, the last hope is the referendum but it will be facing 90% of media under control of prime minister berlusconi.

It seems that some people never learns, we're going to get something very close to what happened 80 years ago, democracy falls for the second time in Italy.

Amen
Does that mean in a few years, they'll be hanging Berlusconi from a lamppost with his mistress?

Does that mean in a few years, they'll be hanging Berlusconi from a lamppost with his mistress?

Well, you know the Europeans. They keep telling Americans that they should "always trust the government" and "the government always knows what's good for you".

what actually is berlusconi doing?

They just passed a constitutional reform that allows things like giving the power to shut down the parliament to the Prime Minister and so on...
Another point is that now the PM doesn't need the approval of the parliament to be placed in power, while the control power the President was charged with are being greatly reduced.

Note that this is the same man who directly controls 6 major TV channels over 7 and most other medias.

Well, you know the Europeans. They keep telling Americans that they should "always trust the government" and "the government always knows what's good for you".

Whispering Legs, your sarcasm is not appreciated, thanks.
If you want to have a laugh i'll just tell you that berlusconi declared himself to be "a liberal and inspired on the american ideals of freedom".
The fact that he says the same for Putin can give you an idea of the jerk that is in charge here.

Does that mean in a few years, they'll be hanging Berlusconi from a lamppost with his mistress?

No, maybe just that a court will finally be able to condemn him for corruption (he was already declared guilty but a previous law passed by his lawyers in the government as they sit in parliament greatly shortened prescription terms so he escaped the sentence).

Well, you know the Europeans. They keep telling Americans that they should "always trust the government" and "the government always knows what's good for you".No we don't. We keep telling you "your government is full of shit" and "your government is lying through its teeth" and "I can't believe you chose that fucktard for your government, again"

"Ultraliberalist?" Isn't Belusconi a right winger?

They just passed a constitutional reform that allows things like giving the power to shut down the parliament to the Prime Minister and so on...
Another point is that now the PM doesn't need the approval of the parliament to be placed in power, while the control power the President was charged with are being greatly reduced.

Note that this is the same man who directly controls 6 major TV channels over 7 and most other medias.
yep, you italians and your crazy fascist tendencies. do people just not care as long as there are tits on tv?

No we don't. We keep telling you "your government is full of shit" and "your government is lying through its teeth" and "I can't believe you chose that fucktard for your government, again"

Well, I keep hearing "if your government was more like ours you wouldn't have any problems in your society" and "if you just had more social programs run by the government like we do you wouldn't have any problems in your society".

A whole lot of "just trust the government when it's a European style government, and all will be well".

"Ultraliberalist?" Isn't Belusconi a right winger?
economic liberal - what in the US would be called "libertarian"

"Ultraliberalist?" Isn't Belusconi a right winger?

ultra-liberist, aka reaganian/tatcherian type of laissez-faire economy, so a right winger.

Well, I keep hearing "if your government was more like ours you wouldn't have any problems in your society" and "if you just had more social programs run by the government like we do you wouldn't have any problems in your society".

A whole lot of "just trust the government when it's a European style government, and all will be well".There's no such thing as "a european style government". All the states in europe have different styles of government. Unless you mean the government of the EU, which isn't really a government at all.

economic liberal - what in the US would be called "libertarian"
Llibertarians would be hard for a socialist to swallow. It would look like complete anarchy to someone who wanted the government to hold their hand from cradle to grave.

There's no such thing as "a european style government". All the states in europe have different styles of government. Unless you mean the government of the EU, which isn't really a government at all.

I should correct that - in place of "european style government", insert "UK government" or "French government" or "German government" - pick the country of choice from Europe. There seems to be a gross misconception that those (and other European countries) could never elect a fucktard.

Seems like Italy got one though.

Llibertarians would be hard for a socialist to swallow. It would look like complete anarchy to someone who wanted the government to hold their hand from cradle to grave.I don't know who/what you're talking about.

No we don't. We keep telling you "your government is full of shit" and "your government is lying through its teeth" and "I can't believe you chose that fucktard for your government, again"
yeah, that sounds about right.

Is there an english language news source for all this though?

I can read french and kind of spanish, but I don't think I could guess my way through italian well enough to understand.

Well, I keep hearing "if your government was more like ours you wouldn't have any problems in your society" and "if you just had more social programs run by the government like we do you wouldn't have any problems in your society".

A whole lot of "just trust the government when it's a European style government, and all will be well".
God, you're so talking bullshit again, it's not even funny. :rolleyes:

I don't know who/what you're talking about.
If Berlusconi is, as someone put it earlier in the thread, much like a libertarian in the US, and I'm clear on the idea that a substantial number of Europeans favor a more socialist government (if not a completely socialist government) with more taxes and more government intervention in private lives, and more government benefits and more government programs and more strict laws, then a libertarian would look like the Devil himself.

yep, you italians and your crazy fascist tendencies. do people just not care as long as there are tits on tv?

The thing started 40 years ago when the christian-led (yes, the main party was called "Christian Democracy") government approved a law that allowed private businesses to own 3 TV channels, it was a legalization of exactly berlusconi's TVs so that he owned half of the TV media.
Since his election he also controls the 3 public channels so that it's 6 out of 7.
In terms of share it's more than 90% since the 7th channel has a 2-3% share and the rest are local TVs.

It's not that the people don't care, it's that aside from a few papers the media are now all controlled by the prime minister.

Orwell would find this thing an excellent subject for a book...

Bush ordered U.S. soldiers to shoot that Italian hostage in Iraq to outrage the Italian people, creating discontent. The purpose of this was to allow Berlusconi to gain popularity by pulling his troops out of Iraq, as a political smokescreen so that no one would notice he appointed himself dictator.

Not bad, eh? I'm learning from the liberals already. :)
That's really more of the Skapdroe School of Conspiracy Theories than the Michael Moore School of Propaganda.

If Berlusconi is, as someone put it earlier in the thread, much like a libertarian in the US, and I'm clear on the idea that a substantial number of Europeans favor a more socialist government (if not a completely socialist government) with more taxes and more government intervention in private lives, and more government benefits and more government programs and more strict laws, then a libertarian would look like the Devil himself.
No Berlusconi is a conservative, not libertarian.

Most Europeans don't favour a totally socialist government, and the average European is much more socially permissive than the average American.

If Berlusconi is, as someone put it earlier in the thread, much like a libertarian in the US, and I'm clear on the idea that a substantial number of Europeans favor a more socialist government (if not a completely socialist government) with more taxes and more government intervention in private lives, and more government benefits and more government programs and more strict laws, then a libertarian would look like the Devil himself.
Again bullshit...

1.) We like socialist governments, because they actually care for the people who have it a bit rough in life

2.) We do not want more taxes however :D

3.) We don't want government intervention in private life either. I've yet to see something like this Schiavo case in the US happening in Europe, for instance.

4.) Government benefits are always a nice thing to have - unfortunately that costs money

5.) Government programs are also nice to have, if they can be funded

6.) Strict laws, depends what for. Usually strict laws and bureaucracy are very much disliked here

Conclusion. You have a completely messed up view of Europe. No wonder, since I've seen you write in various threads, you always spout your nonsense aganst Europe which is without any basis.

If Berlusconi is, as someone put it earlier in the thread, much like a libertarian in the US, and I'm clear on the idea that a substantial number of Europeans favor a more socialist government (if not a completely socialist government) with more taxes and more government intervention in private lives, and more government benefits and more government programs and more strict laws, then a libertarian would look like the Devil himself.

Only that he's not a libertarian.
He just cut the central taxes and raise the local ones...
And in fact taxes as a whole rose 1.8% in the last 3 years.

I should correct that - in place of "european style government", insert "UK government" or "French government" or "German government" - pick the country of choice from Europe. There seems to be a gross misconception that those (and other European countries) could never elect a fucktard.

Seems like Italy got one though.
You are aware that europe is a continent, made of soverign states, right?

I mean, I'm canadian and if I make fun of your government, and then Mexic goes and elects a fascist that has no affect on my argument whatsoever.

I've never seen an italian poster on here who annonced that their government was better than the american government. So don't go off grouping the entire continent of europe together in proclaiming their superiority over you and don't go grouping them together when it comes to fucking up.

Fuck knows I don't want to get grouped in with you guys and your "Hey, you know what would be great? A missile defense sheild!" president.

The actual ultraliberist and xenophobe italian government has just passed 43 amenments that effectively removes the check and balances from the constitution.

All attempts from the opposition to stop this crime were vain, the last hope is the referendum but it will be facing 90% of media under control of prime minister berlusconi.

It seems that some people never learns, we're going to get something very close to what happened 80 years ago, democracy falls for the second time in Italy.

Amen

It isn't as if Democracy has been particuarly stable in those past few decades though.

You are aware that europe is a continent, made of soverign states, right?

I mean, I'm canadian and if I make fun of your government, and then Mexic goes and elects a fascist that has no affect on my argument whatsoever.

I've never seen an italian poster on here who annonced that their government was better than the american government. So don't go off grouping the entire continent of europe together in proclaiming their superiority over you and don't go grouping them together when it comes to fucking up.

Fuck knows I don't want to get grouped in with you guys and your "Hey, you know what would be great? A missile defense sheild!" president.
That's why Canada is liked. Personally I think Canada is the better North American country, when compared to the US. You seem to be more alike to Europe than the US ;)

It isn't as if Democracy has been particuarly stable in those past few decades though.

We got 5 very good years between 96 and 2001, too bad they underestimated the power of media brainwashing.

Ein Deutscher']That's why Canada is liked. Personally I think Canada is the better North American country, when compared to the US. You seem to be more alike to Europe than the US ;)
lol.

To be fair though, there are lots more north american countries. What with Mexico and central america and the carribean. I'm sure very few people have many problems with most of those countries.

And yeah, we are a little more like Europe, I suppose. I think that's mostly because we aren't... you know... insane.

We good 5 very good years between 96 and 2001, too bad they underestimated the power of media brainwashing.

Ahh, true. I should have been a lot more explicit. As I understand it Italy's democracy has had a lot more governments than Britain's democracy (say), with more governments falling before an election with an interim one being set up. (I think the most recent example of this was Dini's [?] 'technocratic' government that directly preceded Berlusconi).

Apologies if I have anything wrong. I have studied European Politics but on the whole found it quite boring. Possibly a combination of a bad lecturer and the fact we had to do most of the European countries in quite a short amount of time.

Ein Deutscher']Again bullshit...

1.) We like socialist governments, because they actually care for the people who have it a bit rough in life

2.) We do not want more taxes however :D

3.) We don't want government intervention in private life either. I've yet to see something like this Schiavo case in the US happening in Europe, for instance.

4.) Government benefits are always a nice thing to have - unfortunately that costs money

5.) Government programs are also nice to have, if they can be funded

6.) Strict laws, depends what for. Usually strict laws and bureaucracy are very much disliked here

Conclusion. You have a completely messed up view of Europe. No wonder, since I've seen you write in various threads, you always spout your nonsense aganst Europe which is without any basis.


I've seen too many arguments by Europeans on this forum that "they could never elect someone like Bush - it couldn't happen there", and "guns need to be banned and more government spending would be a good thing on lots of police and education against guns". Not to mention the routine discussions here with communists like Psylos (that's not a slur - he's really a Communist).

Hey, you can't spend government money without raising taxes. Even with deficit spending, sooner or later you'll have to get the money.

We dislike strict laws and government intervention more in the US. We also dislike socialism and socialist programs - they have only brought funding disasters here and the destruction of families (the Great Society program beginning in the 1960s might be considered an act of genocide).

Dini "technics" government was pre 1996, when the first berlusconi governmrnt fell.
From 1996 to 2001 Italy was led by a democratic centre-left coalition, which reduced unemployment and public dept allowing Italy to fullfill Maastricht requirements.

Unfotrunately they failed to pass a decent law about conflict of interests which brought the current situation.

Dini "technics" government was pre 1996, when the first berlusconi governmrnt fell.
From 1996 to 2001 Italy was led by a democratic centre-left coalition, which reduced unemployment and public dept allowing Italy to fullfill Maastricht requirements.

Unfotrunately they failed to pass a decent law about conflict of interests which brought the current situation.

Whatever happened to the days when the Italian government changed more often than most people change their underwear?

Whatever happened to the days when the Italian government changed more often than most people change their underwear?

That was because we had a proportional party system, which lead to more fragmentation since each minority could have its own party elected.
Due to this coalitions were fragile as they had to be composed of many parties (5-6 on average).
It is the exact opposite of the US government system...
Ironically things started to rot when this was changed.

I'm learning something about the French tax system here, and although it's kind of nice that I can pay 200 euros and get free medical care wherever I go here... it's a bit ridiculous. Paying almost half your salary for various things like social security and the retirement funds of others, not to mention about 5 taxes for 'underprivileged' people... which really doesn't end up working too well, especially as said underprivilaged people here don't really seem to be better off here than they are in the US - add to that that they're going to have a huge social security crises in ten or so years when there won't be nearly enough salaried people to pay for the retiring people... socialism just isn't as good as it's made out to be.

And yeah, we are a little more like Europe, I suppose. I think that's mostly because we aren't... you know... insane.
We're not insane, Americans. We have a pretty good standard of living and aren't facing serious problems as a nation, even with an incompetent monkey in office. Living for the first time in a different country has really made me appreciate everything that the US is, instead of whining about everything it isn't.

We just believe Fox News a bit too much, is all.

I'm learning something about the French tax system here, and although it's kind of nice that I can pay 200 euros and get free medical care wherever I go here... it's a bit ridiculous. Paying almost half your salary for various things like social security and the retirement funds of others, not to mention about 5 taxes for 'underprivileged' people... which really doesn't end up working too well, especially as said underprivilaged people here don't really seem to be better off here than they are in the US - add to that that they're going to have a huge social security crises in ten or so years when there won't be nearly enough salaried people to pay for the retiring people... socialism just isn't as good as it's made out to be.


We're not insane, Americans. We have a pretty good standard of living and aren't facing serious problems as a nation, even with an incompetent monkey in office. Living for the first time in a different country has really made me appreciate everything that the US is, instead of whining about everything it isn't.

We just believe Fox News a bit too much, is all.

You're only lucky, we're here because we've got 6 channels out of seven that are just like fox :D

That was because we had a proportional party system, which lead to more fragmentation since each minority could have its own party elected.
Due to this coalitions were fragile as they had to be composed of many parties (5-6 on average).
It is the exact opposite of the US government system...
Ironically things started to rot when this was changed.

Yes, I understood how it worked. I am wondering how and when it changed. And why.

If it seemed to work so well, what happened?

Yes, I understood how it worked. I am wondering how and when it changed. And why.

If it seemed to work so well, what happened?

Well, they wanted to increase government stability so that governments could stay longer... They were successfull in that but something else must have gone wrong...

News from MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7274514/

What it doesn't tell is that since berluscony got absolute makority in the parliament the only thing that the opposition can do is a referendum.

Well, they wanted to increase government stability so that governments could stay longer... They were successfull in that but something else must have gone wrong...
Governments that are stable (hah!) are corrupt and revel in their power, which they think is secure until re-election. I hate our own system in Germany largely due to the fact that the politicians, once elected, don't give a shit what the people think or want.

We dislike strict laws and government intervention more in the US.
Then why all the fuss about gay marriage legislation? And outlawing abortions? All this kind of crap that limits personal freedoms isn't nearly as big in other countries.

I've seen too many arguments by Europeans on this forum that "they could never elect someone like Bush - it couldn't happen there", and "guns need to be banned and more government spending would be a good thing on lots of police and education against guns".

Obviously, educating people about guns and having more police around to stop them being used is a bad idea? Tell me, Legs, when was the last time twelve people were gunned down in a German school? Or one in France? Or Britain? Or Holland?

As for the idea we could never elect someone like Bush, well, we probably wouldn't. He's an idiot. Here in the UK, we tend to elect cunning lying bastards instead.

Hey, you can't spend government money without raising taxes. Even with deficit spending, sooner or later you'll have to get the money.

Not true, if you get rid of needless government spending. Besides, paying a little extra in tax isn't so bad if it gives you such brutally un-American things as, say, free healthcare.

We dislike strict laws and government intervention more in the US.

Unlike that ultra-hardline police-state dutch government?

Then why all the fuss about gay marriage legislation? And outlawing abortions? All this kind of crap that limits personal freedoms isn't nearly as big in other countries.

One of the things that most Europeans don't know about the US is that it is extremely hard to get what might be termed "winner takes all legislation".

You can yell and scream, and make political promises for decades, and nothing changes across the entire country - even if Bush is President. Because it's nearly impossible to be in a "winner takes all" scenario.

Overturning Roe v. Wade, for example, is far more difficult than most people understand. So politicians use it to whip up voters - but nothing really changes. They pass useless legislation around the fringes of the subject, because they know they can't really do anything.

In a few years, the Supreme Court will rule on gay marriage. And they'll probably approve it. Until then, the rest of the noise you hear is just that - noise.

Don't believe for a minute that just because something is a hot political topic in America that it actually had any effect.

About the only power the President has is the power to start wars. And if the Congress had not abdicated its power in the 1973 War Power Act, he wouldn't have that, either.

Can we avoid to derail this thread please?
This is about Italy and berlusconi, please post EU vs US elsewhere.

WL's whining and wimpering aside, I feel sorry for you and for Italy, Zanax. You have a great history, one I enjoy studying, but your present is heartbreaking. So there's nothing within reason that can be done to stop Berlusconi? Nothing at all?

Also:
Then why all the fuss about gay marriage legislation? And outlawing abortions? All this kind of crap that limits personal freedoms isn't nearly as big in other countries.Whispering Legs is, I think, right. Just because the politicians have us buzzing around doesn't mean power is ever going to really change hands. The same people will get elected, just from different parties. Whoop-dee-doo. Never makes a damn difference.

WL's whining and wimpering aside, I feel sorry for you and for Italy, Zanax. You have a great history, one I enjoy studying, but your present is heartbreaking. So there's nothing within reason that can be done to stop Berlusconi? Nothing at all?


Well, we've got a referendum in the near future but it's a quite hard thing when 90% of media are on one side, plus in 2006 Berlusconi term "should" end...
Well, if things will get worser i've got an university diploma in economy, statistics and computer science and i think Canada is not so bad :p

Can we avoid to derail this thread please?
This is about Italy and berlusconi, please post EU vs US elsewhere.

Well, what are the options for Italy?

Aren't there still going to be regular elections every once in a while?

Well, what are the options for Italy?

Aren't there still going to be regular elections every once in a while?

Well, all depends on the 2006 elections now.
This "reform" allows for an almost unlimited government control over all other powers, if berlusconi gets the next term they will be able to do everything they want...
A bit like in 1924...

Well, what are the options for Italy?

Aren't there still going to be regular elections every once in a while?

Once one party owns 90% of a country's media, I think we can pretty much forget about 'regular' elections. If no-one knows who any of the other parties are, then how can the old bastard lose?

Well, all depends on the 2006 elections now.
This "reform" allows for an almost unlimited government control over all other powers, if berlusconi gets the next term they will be able to do everything they want...
A bit like in 1924...

So, he didn't eliminate general elections? Sounds like the only thing you'll have to do to kick him out of office is get a majority of people to vote him out.

So, he didn't eliminate general elections? Sounds like the only thing you'll have to do to kick him out of office is get a majority of people to vote him out.

He doesn't need to abolish elections, with 90% of media the political campaign is more than unfair.

He doesn't need to abolish elections, with 90% of media the political campaign is more than unfair.

Is the media controlled directly by the government (by the executive in particular), or is it controlled by companies he has ties to?

Is the media controlled directly by the government (by the executive in particular), or is it controlled by companies he has ties to?

There are 7 national media channels.

3 are government run (so under berlusconi control), berlusconi owns 3, the last one has 2-3% share and avoids any political definition.

There are 7 national media channels.

3 are government run (so under berlusconi control), berlusconi owns 3, the last one has 2-3% share and avoids any political definition.

Sounds like you need to get rid of government channels. We don't have an official government channel here. We do fund "public broadcasting" but we try to keep the government out of its programming. As an example, our National Public Radio is more critical of our President and government than most regular networks.

And, you should pass a law that no politician can own a media company.

Sounds like you need to get rid of government channels. We don't have an official government channel here. We do fund "public broadcasting" but we try to keep the government out of its programming. As an example, our National Public Radio is more critical of our President and government than most regular networks.

And, you should pass a law that no politician can own a media company.

The government channels did an excellent job before berlusconi and will keep doing it after we will manage to remove him.

About the law you mentioned... It was discussed but then it was not passed because of freedom of speech worries... Orwell would be proud.

Ein Deutscher']Governments that are stable (hah!) are corrupt and revel in their power, which they think is secure until re-election. I hate our own system in Germany largely due to the fact that the politicians, once elected, don't give a shit what the people think or want.
Especially the greens. They are a nightmare come true. They should have stuck to nitting sweaters.