NationStates Jolt Archive

Source (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1111446612907&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154)

Yes, you read that right: in Greece, they'll arrest you for something as simple as picking up a stone. Granted, it's not just any stone- it's a stone from the Acropolis, and one BC teen learned the hard way that you just don't pick anything up from the Site.

The story goes something like this: Madelaine Gierc of Duncan, BC, was in Greece for a school trip to Greece. When she got to the Acropolis, she decided to pick up a stone from the ground and pose with it and a friend for a picture and then put it back. However, shortly after picking up the stone, Gierc was arrested under charges of illegally possessing antiques and sent to an Athens jail, spending the night in jail before a Greek magistrate told her she would be able to leave the country. No trial date has been set.

Now, when I heard about this I was in complete shock. Picking up a stone is a crime? What world do they live in? Then I got to thinking: maybe there's a logical explanation for this, and I thought of two points.

One, she probably should have asked security if she could pose with the stone, since on a site like the Acropolis there would be hundreds of them, and Gierc can't say that she never saw one. On the flip side, it's highly doubtful that most of us would see a stone and think of asking someone if we can pick it up- I mean, it's just a stone (I'm notorious for kicking them, but that's another matter).

Two- and this is the bigger point- having a strict policy regarding antiques is a pretty good way to stop theft, and in a country like Greece, where there are many great antiquites to have, being strict and thorough guards against loopholes (so that someone doesn't smuggle a "stone" that really has the inscription of someone's face, for example). However, this reminds me of the time when someone decided to sell rocks on eBay that were purportedly from Avril Lavigne's hometown, Napanee, Ontario, albeit with a little more veracity. Obviously, here Gierc can't claim they were not from the Acropolis since she picked it up and was arrested at the Acropolis but the point is still the same: it's just a rock. I personally am all for the protection of historical sites, but I think arresting someone because they picked up some small stone (it measured 13 centimeters in diameter) is a little much. Mind you, we don't know if there is a sign there, and if there isn't one there then that can be a source for confusion, though most likely a sign exists.

Thoughts?

if they don't want people touching it seal it off

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/03/21/968031-ap.html

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't brush this off -- you don't pick up part of an historical ruin and not know it's wrong, unless you're pretty clueless.

Even if you don't know it's wrong, as the old maxim goes, "ignorantia legis neminem excusat" (Ignorance of the law excuses no one).

13 cm square?

That's a little big for a stone...

It seems silly that she would get in so much trouble for picking it up. It would be one thing if she started to walk off with it, but if it's just picking it up and staying in one place... like a security guard could keep an eye on her and if she starts to walk off with it then nab her.

If every Madelaine Gierc who ever visited the Acropolis picked up some small stone that measured 13 centimeters in diameter, the acropolis would have been gone some hundreds of years ago. There's a reason why there are HUGE signs in there with every language telling not to pick things up. The whole damned thing is made out of bloody stones, maybe the Greek think people have carried enough stones off of their country. It's not like the 'Midnight Express' or anything, she's free now, right..?

Even if you don't know it's wrong, as the old maxim goes, "ignorantia legis neminem excusat" (Ignorance of the law excuses no one).

Hey, I agree. A law may be weird but we'd still have to follow it. I'm just not sure if I think this is the right kind of law to have. Like I said before, I'm all for protecting historical sites, but once we start arresting innocent teenagers for simply posing with a stone then you know there's a problem.

In Greece any and all antiques you find, on your property or otherwise, are the property of the Government and keeping possesion of them is illegal. Likewise I'm not at all surprised they'd arrest someone for trying to pick up a rock at the Acropolis.

Hey, I agree. A law may be weird but we'd still have to follow it. I'm just not sure if I think this is the right kind of law to have. Like I said before, I'm all for protecting historical sites, but once we start arresting innocent teenagers for simply posing with a stone then you know there's a problem.
Innocent teenager? How were the Greek police to know that? She could be a smuggler of the worst kind. See what teenegars can do in any of the threads concerning the school shootings. All teenagers are guilty of something! The ones not in jail are just yet to be caught.

Innocent teenager? How were the Greek police to know that? She could be a smuggler of the worst kind. See what teenegars can do in any of the threads concerning the school shootings. All teenagers are guilty of something! The ones not in jail are just yet to be caught.

I would think that someone on a school trip who's just having her photograph taken isn't a menace to society. Besides, the speed at which they arrested her after she picked up the stone (approximately 20 seconds) indicates the pointless severity of the situation. I mean, it's not like she actually threw the thing.

When are you Canadians going to learn. You just can't go around thinking you own the place. :p

When are you Canadians going to learn. You just can't go around thinking you own the place. :p

Hey, it's not our fault we have to steal someone else's history just to have some of our own :p

She'll ahve a hell of a story to tell her grandchildren !!!

I would think that someone on a school trip who's just having her photograph taken isn't a menace to society. Besides, the speed at which they arrested her after she picked up the stone (approximately 20 seconds) indicates the pointless severity of the situation. I mean, it's not like she actually threw the thing.
A-HA! So you are saying she was GOING TO throw it! I would assume the Parthenon is a photo opportunity enough without picking up rocks. And 20 seconds! Man! they are getting sloppy in there...

I would think that someone on a school trip who's just having her photograph taken isn't a menace to society. Besides, the speed at which they arrested her after she picked up the stone (approximately 20 seconds) indicates the pointless severity of the situation. I mean, it's not like she actually threw the thing.

Border guards never check the school bus. Ideal cover for a smuggler.

Border guards never check the school bus. Ideal cover for a smuggler.
Buses can cross the ocean now?

My list of thefts of national treasures:

1) Piece of Hadrians wall. Scotish side, (no one noticed)

2)A branch of the virgin mary tree. Helped myself to the free candles there to. (Portugal)

3) a small piece of the the colliseum (Rome)

4) A thousand year old vase from a certain central American country. I actually paid $5 for it. Illegal to export it out of the country though. Found out it's worth thousands.

5) A piece of roman tile from Volibulis(Roman ruins in Morocco). Pieces were scattered about like nothing. No real preservation at this site.


This is of course all a joke if you are in law enforcement. If not ;)
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A-HA! So you are saying she was GOING TO throw it! I would assume the Parthenon is a photo opportunity enough without picking up rocks. And 20 seconds! Man! they are getting sloppy in there...

Well...no. Just because someone picks up something doesn't mean that they'll throw it. Though I agree that the Parthenon is enough of a photo opportunity.

Border guards never check the school bus. Ideal cover for a smuggler.

True...but if Madelaine did what she said she would (put it back down) then it's moot. We'd never know because the Greek authorities arrested her just after she picked up the stone. I mean, if the security officer saw her pocket the stone then maybe I'd side with them a little more (because then there's obvious intent to steal) but simply arresting for picking the stone up is a bit much, since now the authorities have no clear proof that she *was* trying to steal the rock. In other terms, I could pick up a pen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'll write with it. I could throw it or I could twirl it, for example. Same thing with Madelaine: all she did was pick up the stone- she didn't do anything else to it, meaning anything could have been possible later. The way the security officer acted, the authorities now have no proof of her motives, and to think they'd operate like that is troubling. Mind you, it does appear like the Greek authorities are not going to try to severely punish her here so this may just wind up being another "strange" international episode, but it's still a little troubling.

Buses can cross the ocean now?

Didn't someone invent an aquabus...*shifty eyes*

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005/03/21/968031-ap.html

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't brush this off -- you don't pick up part of an historical ruin and not know it's wrong, unless you're pretty clueless.

The Greeks have been passing some pretty stupid laws (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/mobile/0,39020360,2121692,00.htm) . I wouldn't be so quick to side against the tourist.

The Greeks have been passing some pretty stupid laws (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/mobile/0,39020360,2121692,00.htm) . I wouldn't be so quick to side against the tourist.

:eek:

You know, the first thing I thought about when I read about the Acropolis is how "Roman" the situation felt (the Romans were masters of the stupid law- see: Caligula, Nero). Now I have confirmation.

The Greeks have been passing some pretty stupid laws (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/mobile/0,39020360,2121692,00.htm) . I wouldn't be so quick to side against the tourist.

So... nothing wrong with letting people touch the Mona Lisa in the Louvre, too, just because they don't mean any harm?

True...but if Madelaine did what she said she would (put it back down) then it's moot. We'd never know because the Greek authorities arrested her just after she picked up the stone. I mean, if the security officer saw her pocket the stone then maybe I'd side with them a little more (because then there's obvious intent to steal) but simply arresting for picking the stone up is a bit much, since now the authorities have no clear proof that she *was* trying to steal the rock. In other terms, I could pick up a pen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'll write with it. I could throw it or I could twirl it, for example. Same thing with Madelaine: all she did was pick up the stone- she didn't do anything else to it, meaning anything could have been possible later. The way the security officer acted, the authorities now have no proof of her motives, and to think they'd operate like that is troubling. Mind you, it does appear like the Greek authorities are not going to try to severely punish her here so this may just wind up being another "strange" international episode, but it's still a little troubling.
The article linked by Katganistan indicates that there have been abuses in the past (especially in regards to people picking stuff up and walking off with it). If it's a 13 centimeter stone, then that could fit in a large pocket. The guard may not have wanted to wait to see her actually pocket the thing before taking action, because the guard might lose sight of her if she slips into a crowd. (Granted, we don't know how thick the crowd was at the time.)

Another possibility is that Ms. Gierc might have been the willing accomplice of an actual smuggler: The accomplice picks up a stone to get a guards attention, hold the guards gaze while the accomplice is posing for the camera, and the actual smuggler picks up something and hides it while the guard is distracted watching the accomplice. The accomplice then puts down the stone and walks off, and the smuggler goes undetected. Under the current rules, the accomplice in this scenario would risk getting caught and jailed, thus deterring such a plan. The scenario is a bit far-fetched, but my point is that such a swift and harsh response is not necessarily unjustified.

If I ever visit any Greek historical sites, I will very clearly remember not to touch anything.

The Greeks have been passing some pretty stupid laws (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/mobile/0,39020360,2121692,00.htm) . I wouldn't be so quick to side against the tourist.
Your word of caution is noted. However, not all laws are stupid; just because some laws are stupid does not necessarily imply that some other laws are also stupid. Granted, these things seem like they're just stones, but these are stones with important historical significance. They're not just stones, they're stones from The Acropolis.

"Think about it for a moment."

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My first post removal! Awesome! Anyway that was all just a joke and no need to forward to interpol. But if you do call them. Just use my real name. They already know who I am ;)

Really, its just the price you pay for being able to actually walk through the ruins. A lot of places won't - even the Pyramids only allow a small, sealed off area for tourists. You just can't touch anything, and you gotta expect that. These guys here are right - it'll be gone if people just get let off the hook for it.

She should have simply killed the security guard, stripped him of his armor, washed his body, and returned it to his father. Then she would have been perfectly fine.

Achia always has stupid rullers. Look at Agamemnon. He sacrificed his only daughter the the gods to obtain a good wind for his warships and doesn't expect his wife to kill him when he gets home. Achia current rullers are also fairly stupid, they admit so much when they say that they can't tell a playstation from a slot machine.
The great thing about Achians is that they once had people like Achilles how could effortlessly slaughter anyone who stood against him and great philosophers like Socrates. Unfortunatly, the former all died in stupid wars started by jealous and stupid tyrants and the later were all executed by stupid democracies.

The Greeks have been passing some pretty stupid laws (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/mobile/0,39020360,2121692,00.htm) . I wouldn't be so quick to side against the tourist.

I'm pretty sure they repealed that law. It breached some EU trade policy, if I remember correctly.

Her own damn fault. I mean, if I'd go to Washington and visit the White House I'm not trying to pick up a vase or a a chair and keep it either.

First think, then act. And maybe... don't let hang out the fact that you're just a dumb tourist everywhere?

Yes, I hate tourists, they're annoying.

So... nothing wrong with letting people touch the Mona Lisa in the Louvre, too, just because they don't mean any harm?

Well, they're physically prevented from doing so. You have to harm a glass shield to get to the Mona Lisa. And it's still warping.

Her own damn fault. I mean, if I'd go to Washington and visit the White House I'm not trying to pick up a vase or a a chair and keep it either.

First think, then act. And maybe... don't let hang out the fact that you're just a dumb tourist everywhere?

Yes, I hate tourists, they're annoying.

Well, that's true. Even when New York resembled what you see in the original "Shaft" there was nothing that New Yorkers were afraid of, except looking like a tourist.

When the WTC started to crumble hundreds of New Yorkers were heard whispering to their friends "stop staring, you look like a tourist."

The article linked by Katganistan indicates that there have been abuses in the past (especially in regards to people picking stuff up and walking off with it). If it's a 13 centimeter stone, then that could fit in a large pocket. The guard may not have wanted to wait to see her actually pocket the thing before taking action, because the guard might lose sight of her if she slips into a crowd. (Granted, we don't know how thick the crowd was at the time.)

Another possibility is that Ms. Gierc might have been the willing accomplice of an actual smuggler: The accomplice picks up a stone to get a guards attention, hold the guards gaze while the accomplice is posing for the camera, and the actual smuggler picks up something and hides it while the guard is distracted watching the accomplice. The accomplice then puts down the stone and walks off, and the smuggler goes undetected. Under the current rules, the accomplice in this scenario would risk getting caught and jailed, thus deterring such a plan. The scenario is a bit far-fetched, but my point is that such a swift and harsh response is not necessarily unjustified.

If I ever visit any Greek historical sites, I will very clearly remember not to touch anything.

Granted, those are very serious scenarios, but they're really just assumptions at this stage. Without clear evidence- and it's admittedly lacking in this story- you can't really prove that Madelaine was an accomplice or attempted to steal the rock. By just going with what we have, all we have is that Madelaine picked up the rock and posed for a photo with a friend- nothing more. Thus, as grand as it may sound, scenarios such as "she's smuggling" are merely assumptions.

Having said that, you're right- guarding against smuggling scenarios such as that one *are* important. However, I'm still not convinced the Greek authorities went about it the right way. They never gave her the chance to prove that she wouldn't steal and I don't think that's right, especially considering the magnitude of the situation (it's just a stone...)

it's a historic location. imagine if everyone took a small stone as a souviner... buildings would dissapear in almost no time.

In Hawaii, it's the same for Lava Rocks... however, our law enforcement agency (police) are not too strict about it... the tales of horror and ill fortune that plague those who take that which are Pele's are numerous and all told in letters when the hapless visitor is forced to mail back the stolen property. Don't believe me? Next time you visit the Big Island... check it out.

I would think that someone on a school trip who's just having her photograph taken isn't a menace to society. Besides, the speed at which they arrested her after she picked up the stone (approximately 20 seconds) indicates the pointless severity of the situation. I mean, it's not like she actually threw the thing.

Throwing it was never what they were worried about. It is going home with it that is the problem. The Greeks are particularly sensitive about the Parthenon ever since Lord Elgin took away a large amount of carved stone there in the 19th century. (The Elgin Marbles).
Someone on a schol trip is just as likely to put that stone in a backback and leave with it as any professional antiques thief.
There are warnings, she broke the law, she was arrested. She has been released . What is the problem?

Throwing it was never what they were worried about. It is going home with it that is the problem. The Greeks are particularly sensitive about the Parthenon ever since Lord Elgin took away a large amount of carved stone there in the 19th century. (The Elgin Marbles).
Someone on a schol trip is just as likely to put that stone in a backback and leave with it as any professional antiques thief.
There are warnings, she broke the law, she was arrested. She has been released . What is the problem?

That part I understand- I merely used "throwing" as an example of a hostile action that she could have done with the rock. Stealing it was obviously the major concern, and I can sympathize fully with the Greeks for wanting to curb theft. I'm just not convinced they're going about it the right way. Sure, it sends a stern message to those wishing to plunder Greece, but it's still a rather peculiar target- a 16-year-old girl posing for a photograph? Plus it's not like they had clear evidence that she was going to pocket this thing. It'd be like arresting someone who got angry at another person for attempted murder- sure, anger can lead to murder but it doesn't always. Likewise, a girl picking up a rock can lead to her stealing it but it doesn't always.

I don't know if anyone's ever been there but there are these GIANT singes written in multiple languages that say "Take the rocks and you will be beaten then sodomized" so feel no pity for this person, if they say they didn't know then they are ether lying or not worth the food they consume.

I don't know if anyone's ever been there but there are these GIANT singes written in multiple languages that say "Take the rocks and you will be beaten then sodomized" so feel no pity for this person, if they say they didn't know then they are ether lying or not worth the food they consume.

Well, I figured there would be signs there...that's a given. Though if that's what the sign says I'm not sure how inclined I would be to believe it.

As she is 16 year old she should be able to to read signs...I feel no pity for kids who pick up rocks even if there is signs everywhere (and I have been there, so I know who easy it is to see thoose signs) which says that it is forbidden to pick upp or taking anything with you, even in french.

Border guards never check the school bus. Ideal cover for a smuggler.
Oh yes they do (hey Finnish custom knows what teenagers are like, just like Bunnyducks). Thank god there were so many buses that they just sighed and gave up... :D

So... nothing wrong with letting people touch the Mona Lisa in the Louvre, too, just because they don't mean any harm?
Well, they're physically prevented from doing so. You have to harm a glass shield to get to the Mona Lisa. And it's still warping.

My first reaction is that you are completely missing my point...
...and my second is that I suppose the logical extension to this is that tourists are too stupid to understand "look but don't touch."

;) And they say American tourists are poor travellers and egocentric.

As she is 16 year old she should be able to to read signs...I feel no pity for kids who pick up rocks even if there is signs everywhere (and I have been there, so I know who easy it is to see thoose signs) which says that it is forbidden to pick upp or taking anything with you, even in french.

I figured that...however, was it really necessary to arrest the girl and charge her for theft? I'm thinking a simple reminder like "please don't touch the rocks" would have sufficed.