NationStates Jolt Archive

Right first lets define the two.

AUTISM:

According to BBC News Online, autism is a developmental disability that affects the way a person communicates and interacts with other people.

The National Autistic Society says that the characteristics linked with autism are:

Difficulty with social relationships - for example appearing aloof and indifferent to other people
Social communication - difficulty with verbal and non-verbal communication, for example not really understanding the meaning of gestures, facial expressions or tone of voice
Imagination - difficulty in the development of play and imagination, for example having a limited range of imaginative activities, possibly copied and pursued rigidly and repetitive

And now for the statistics. According to what the BBC online news service has reported, cases of autism have over quadrupled from roughly 10 in 1000 to 46 in 1000.

DYSLEXIA

According to an education site, this is the definition of dyslexia:

Dyslexia is a term that has been loosely applied to reading disabilities. Specific definitions for dyslexia vary with disciplines. Those in medicine define dyslexia as a condition resulting from neurological, maturational, and genetic causes, while those in psychology relate dyslexia on the basis of the specific reading problems evidenced and give no reference to causation. All disciplines would probably agree that dyslexia is evidenced by persons of otherwise normal intellectual capacity who have not learned to read despite exposure to adequate instruction

The characterisitics of the disease are as follows:

Ocular Problems
Several reliable studies (Helveston 1969; Blika 1982; Keys 1982; Hiatt 1984) have found that dyslexic individuals have no greater incidence of eye problems than do individuals with normal reading ability. Such parameters as visual acuity, stereo acuity, ocular alignment and motility, fusion status (break point amplitude), and refractive error have not been shown to be significantly different in poor versus normal readers. Individuals with reading problems should, however, have a careful eye examination as part of an overall medical examination. There is no scientific evidence that visual training (including eye muscle exercises, ocular tracking or pursuit exercises, or glasses with bifocals or prisms) leads to significant improvement in the performance of dyslexic individuals.

Language Problems
According to Mattis (1978), the primary contributing factor to dyslexia is an auditory language deficit. Approximately 86% of the individuals identified as dyslexic evidence an auditory language disorder that prevents the individual from linking the spoken form of a word with its written equivalent. In light of this, any individual with reading problems should have a careful evaluation of his or her language capabilities and where indicated, appropriate speech and language intervention should be provided.

Visuo-Spatial-Motor Problems
In contrast to language problems, visuo-spatial-motor factors of dyslexia appear less frequently (Robinson and Schwartz 1973). Approximately 5% of the individuals identified as dyslexic have a visuo-spatial-motor problem that interferes with sequential organization, scanning, and the perception of temporal and spatial cues. Although visuo-spatial-motor confusion is common in young children who are just learning to read, these problems do not tend to account for severe and persistent reading difficulties unless the child has missed so much basic reading instruction that he cannot get caught up. Assessment of visual, spatial, and motor capacities should be included in the diagnosis of any coordination or orientation disorder; however, there is no scientific evidence that interventions such as neurological and sensory organizational training, laterality training, dominance training, balance beam, or reflex inhibition will significantly accelerate reading performance.

Apparently 5% of the UK population now have some form of dyslexia, a rapid increase from previous decades.

Now onto my main argument. Many doctors are trying to pin down the causes of these two afflications - theories such as specific genes, abnormal brain growth rates, MMR jabs are widespread. But these are all medical solutions. Why has the rates increased? Could it simply be awareness? Maybe. Or maybe these increased rates lie not within the awareness rate but instead with society itself.

The society of the Anglo Western world (i.e. Great Britain and America) is taking part currently in what could be dubbed as a 'blame culture'. When a person has an accident rather than accept it was down to their clumsiness, they instead sue the body responsible for that bit of street they were walking down. This is a widespread problem - horse riding schools are being forced out of business because their pupils are suing them if they fall off the horse. Psychiatirsts also aid in these culture of 'Not me, sir, not me' - they tell people that their faults are not due to their own defects or their own weaknesses but down to the actions of their parents, loved ones, education etc etc. If a student doesn't get into a university of his choice or doesn't get good grades, he balmes the teachers, the system or even that the universities are class biased rather than find fault with his own lack of work and his own level of intelligence. So what has this to do with autism and dyslexia?

My point is that the increase is not due to an increase the disease itself, an increase in population or even an increase in awareness. It could be that when parents see their children with behavioural faults and difficulties in learning, they look straight for any thing to blame other than themselves. But yet behaviour faults are most likely caused by failures to provide adequate parenting skills.

My point is made.

[EDIT: TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT SAYING THAT DYSLEXIA AND AUTISM DO NOT EXIST - THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN. I AM MERELY MAKING A CONNECTION BETWEEN SOCIAL BEHAVIOURIAL TRENDS AND THE GROSSLY DISPROPORTIONATE INCREASE IN BOTH OF THE AFOREMENTIONED AFFLICTIONS]

Your "point" seems to be that it "could" be that dyslexia and autism aren't real, but merely excuses for "poor parenting skills"?

And I see you've conducted the clinical tests to prove it, rather than just speculate. No, wait. Its just purely your uninformed opinion.

Perhaps you should at least consider medical school before making mass diagnoses on thousands of patients that you have not even met.

It could be that when parents see their children with behavioural faults and difficulties in learning, they look straight for any thing to blame other than themselves. But yet behaviour faults are most likely caused by failures to provide adequate parenting skills.

You have no idea what is most likely, do you?

It could actually be due to better awareness. And it could be due to children forcing us to be more aware. The more free society is, the more freedom we give to our children, the more they can express themselves, and the more we are able to learn about them.

I have asperger's (a kind of autism) and didn't find this out until my son was diagnosed with it. He was diagnosed by the education psych service because he kicked off a lot in school. I didn't kick off at school even though I experienced a lot of the same frustrations because i was scared of school discipline. I'm glad that my son isn't so scared, and glad that because he is expressing himself, he has a diagnosis and some interventions that are making his behaviour and his experience of being himself better. And I'm also glad that his freedom enabled me to get a diagnosis that I'm finding very helpful.

People were neither as aware of these problems nor as willing to make others aware of them in the past. I know a very successful business man who didn't find out he was dyslexic until he was in his twenties. He was dismissed as an idiot at school.

And my parenting skills, while not great, are fine.

I was tested for a mild form of Dyslexia and actually went through some "training" to deal with it.

Autism and Dyslexia were not good choices for your argument. I have seen an autistic child. In fact a workers kid was on the cover of Time.

Now if you are talking about Attention Defecit Disorder, you would have more of an argument (IMHO).

It seems that whenever there is a kid with "issues" he obviously has ADD.

They actually prescribe Ritalen for kids now. :eek:

I was tested for a mild form of Dyslexia and actually went through some "training" to deal with it.

Autism and Dyslexia were not good choices for your argument. I have seen an autistic child. In fact a workers kid was on the cover of Time.

Now if you are talking about Attention Defecit Disorder, you would have more of an argument (IMHO).

It seems that whenever there is a kid with "issues" he obviously has ADD.

They actually prescribe Ritalen for kids now. :eek:

Please don't start on ADD. We've had whole threads about it with lots of evidence that it is neither overdiagnosed nor overmedicated. And they have alway prescibed Ritalin for kids. It was designed for treating ADD in children.

Here's a thought, NBG. Instead of trolling the forums, why don't you do something useful and take yourself down to an autism unit, so you can see for yourself what it means. Or maybe even doing a bit of research in the subject.

Here's a hint: YOU HAVEN'T GOT A FUCKING CLUE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. Nobody who has seen a child on the autistic spectrum could mistake it for 'bad behaviour'.

You say, "But yet behaviour faults are most likely caused by failures to provide adequate parenting skills.." This was put up as a theory in the sixties, and very comprehensively knocked down. This site's ToS prevent me drawing an instructive metaphor here.

I think everyone else has pretty much covered the offense I would have to explain to you... so I'll leave this alone.

Please don't start on ADD. We've had whole threads about it with lots of evidence that it is neither overdiagnosed nor overmedicated. And they have alway prescibed Ritalin for kids. It was designed for treating ADD in children.

Well then ADD is contagious as I have 3 friends that have announced (over last year) their kids have it. In 2 cases, I think the kids are monsters as they get away with things that most people would never allow(ie screaming at mom, smacking her, and telling her to shutup).

My little cousin is a hyper kid. As was his mother. Ritalin was the first thing suggested. Luckily the mother refused.

ADD may exist(I admit I can't judge) but it does seem to be the justification of choice.

Autism and ADD are both genuine problems for children. The problem is that syndromes are by definition hard to pin down as they have no standard set of symptoms (ie, there's a large list of possible symptoms and sufferers could have any or all of them)

The problem is the difficulty of diagnosis. Because of the wide range of symptoms, many of which can happen for other reasons, it's dificult for doctors to accurately diagnose disorders like these. As a result, doctors tend to play it safe (after all, if they give a negative verdict and another doctor gives positive they're gonna get sued more than likely) and prescribe medication which would be sutable treatment for children with the disorder.

As for ritalin, it has many very serious side effects, especially when taken long term, which don't seem to be fully explained to parents who give their kids it. It is medically classed under the same family of drugs as speed, and has similar side effects. It can also cause the same problems it is supposed to cure.

Google it up if you like, you'll find a lot of sites dedicated to the subject. Personally though I think more research should be put into the disorders before we start doping kids up on speed to "cure" them

Oh goodie, another person telling me Dyslexia is all in the head (or my parents, that is a new one).

Dyslexia is real. Dyslexia is hard. Dyslexia means i went through my entire shcooling feeling thick.

Can you recite the alphabet backwards? I cant. If i give you a random letter, can you say what come right before it or after it? I cant, even though i've done alphabetic filing until my fingers hurt. If i gave you a month, could you tell me what month came before it? I couldnt withput going through the entire alphabet to find it.

How well do you remmeber your times tables? Did you only learn them once? I was taught three seperate times in my life to recite all the times tables. But now, i have to work the sum out, i cant recite them anymore, hence the 3 times being made to learn. Yeah, that worked.

Why dont you f**K off and speak on a subject you might know something about. You have no idea the prejudice we face just because we cant spell well, read well or write properly.

I'm lucky, I was given a private education because i was so "slow" at state school. most arent as lucky as me, even if my school didnt believe in dyslexia, i had a decent education with extra help.

And as for Visuo-Spatial-Motor Problems It's more commonly known as Dyspraxia, a condition that all duslexica suffer to varian degrees. Do you know how sick i uned to get for being called clumsey?

Do some real research, then come back.

I wont even get started on Autism, you think this was harsh... PAH!

Nobody who has seen a child on the autistic spectrum could mistake it for 'bad behaviour'.The autistic spectrum is broad. Lots of people see children with high-functioning autism eg asperger's and call it bad behaviour.

I have both dyslexia and Add. that doesn't mean that I am incapable of reading or learning or focusing, it just means that it takes a lot more effort for me to do so (well, it took more effort for me to learn to read.)
the funny thing about dyslexia and ADD is that once you've truly conquered them, they're more of an asset than a detriment. ADD gives you ability to focus and work on multiple things at once, and dyslexia actually increases reading comprehension and leads to a more active imagination and the ability to think outside of perscribed thought. ADD and dislexia are quite prevalent both among artists and among the prison population.

The autistic spectrum is broad. Lots of people see children with high-functioning autism eg asperger's and call it bad behaviour.
High-functioning Asperger's does not display as bad behaviour, but as a certain remoteness or mechanical note to behaviour and/or speech. Chances are, an observer would never spot the condition at all except on extended observation. If an autistic child is throwing a tantrum, that might be seen by a casual observer as 'bad behaviour', but not if they watched the child for more than a couple of minutes. They would see there is something else going on. Hence my recommendation to NBG that he visit an autistic unit, rather than speculate wildly (and offensively) on the basis of ... well, God knows what, really.

High-functioning Asperger's does not display as bad behaviour, but as a certain remoteness or mechanical note to behaviour and/or speech. Chances are, an observer would never spot the condition at all except on extended observation. If an autistic child is throwing a tantrum, that might be seen by a casual observer as 'bad behaviour', but not if they watched the child for more than a couple of minutes. They would see there is something else going on. Hence my recommendation to NBG that he visit an autistic unit, rather than speculate wildly (and offensively) on the basis of ... well, God knows what, really.

The reaction to internal stresses caused by living with aspergers in the norm world can and does exhibit as "bad behaviour". I am that "bad parent".

New British Glory-I think your point is the most stupid thing I have heard.
Behavioural faults and difficulties in learning are two very different things when it comes to Dyslexia or Dyscalculia. It's not how the parents raised their children but a thing in the childrens minds that hinder them to do the best they really could do without Dyslexia. It's like a speed bump, they understand the way they are going and what it takes to get there but somewhere on that road they hit a bump and things go wrong. Not a single person on Earth fully knows what it is that slows their progress down so for you to blame the parents is just like blaming an Author for writing a book, it makes no sence.
The thing is that people do not understand Dyslexia and keep guessing on what it is and at the end it only leaves more questions rather then explainations.
The world in fact needs to put in major funds to understand this and find a way around it for people that have this.
Dyslexia is not the end of the road, most people with Dyslexia have better Iq's then non-Dyslexic people and that is a fact, their IQ ranges normally from avarage to above avarage and even higher so they are not stupid, they understand what they are learning but can not put it on paper and that is why Dyslexia is like wearing a scarlett letter.

The reaction to internal stresses caused by living with aspergers in the norm world can and does exhibit as "bad behaviour". I am that "bad parent".
Ok, I withdraw, with apologies. I was coming from an understanding that Asperger's was characterised by outwardly largely normal speech and behaviour patterns. But you're right, the stresses can provoke outbursts.

I am also a "bad parent". My kid is high functioning, but not Asperger's, and there's no way you could think his reaction to stress is just 'bad behaviour'. Ironically enough, most people are much more likely to comment on how (almost unnaturally) well behaved he is. Not to mention affectionate and funny (thank God!).

<sigh> We had a whole other thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=401219&page=1&pp=15&highlight=Attention+Deficit) a few weeks ago about ADD. Dozens of your fellow NS'ers have ADD, including myself. (And I am an adult, who was not diagnosed until I was an adult.)

I urge you to accept the information below and not comment further on a subject about which you know little.

Well then ADD is contagious as I have 3 friends that have announced (over last year) their kids have it. In 2 cases, I think the kids are monsters as they get away with things that most people would never allow(ie screaming at mom, smacking her, and telling her to shutup).

My little cousin is a hyper kid. As was his mother. Ritalin was the first thing suggested. Luckily the mother refused.

ADD may exist(I admit I can't judge) but it does seem to be the justification of choice.

1. Pure speculation based on weak anecdotal evidence
2. Ignores medical research and studies
3. Ignores consensus of medical and psychological communities

Try educating yourself on the subject. You clearly lack the information to judge.

In addition to the links & information below, here is information from:
The National Institute of Mental Health (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm)


Autism and ADD are both genuine problems for children. The problem is that syndromes are by definition hard to pin down as they have no standard set of symptoms (ie, there's a large list of possible symptoms and sufferers could have any or all of them)

The problem is the difficulty of diagnosis. Because of the wide range of symptoms, many of which can happen for other reasons, it's dificult for doctors to accurately diagnose disorders like these. As a result, doctors tend to play it safe (after all, if they give a negative verdict and another doctor gives positive they're gonna get sued more than likely) and prescribe medication which would be sutable treatment for children with the disorder.

As for ritalin, it has many very serious side effects, especially when taken long term, which don't seem to be fully explained to parents who give their kids it. It is medically classed under the same family of drugs as speed, and has similar side effects. It can also cause the same problems it is supposed to cure.

Google it up if you like, you'll find a lot of sites dedicated to the subject. Personally though I think more research should be put into the disorders before we start doping kids up on speed to "cure" them

Myths and Misconceptions About AD/HD: Science over Cynicism (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/myths):

Myth # 3: AD/HD is Over-Diagnosed

Critics claim that AD/HD is over-diagnosed and many children with the diagnosis do not have AD/HD. Despite these claims, it is difficult to find evidence that AD/HD is over-diagnosed or that stimulant medications are over-prescribed (Jensen et al., 1999). Moreover, Jensen et al. (1999) suggest that in "some cases AD/HD may be undiagnosed and/or untreated" (p. 798). Although this is a complex problem, prevalence rates of AD/HD range from two to nine percent (Barkley, 1998). Rates vary depending on the rating scales employed, the criteria used to make a diagnosis, the use of cut-off scores, and changes in diagnostic criteria. Prevalence rates increased when AD/HD -- primarily inattentive type (AD/HD-PI) -- was added to the DSM-IV (Wolraich et al., 1996).

Changes in special education legislation in the early 1990s increased general awareness of AD/HD as a handicapping condition and provided the legal basis for the diagnosis and treatment of AD/HD in the school setting. These legal mandates have increased the number of school-based services available to children with AD/HD and may have inadvertently led some to conclude that AD/HD is a new disorder that is over-diagnosed.

Myth # 4: Children with AD/HD are Over-medicated

"Critics of stimulant treatment for youths with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (AD/HD) have increased their rhetoric of late, contending that the leading medication for it, Ritalin, is vastly over-prescribed" (Safer, 2000, p. 55). There are seemingly contradictory data that contribute to this confusion -- e.g., a steady increase in stimulant use, although most school-aged children with AD/HD are not medicated in the community (Jensen et al., 1999).

Although there has been an increase in the rate of prescriptions for stimulants and an increase in the production of methylphenidate, "little is known about why these increases are occurring" (Jensen et al., 1999, p. 797). "Most researchers believe that much of the increased use of stimulants reflects better diagnosis and more effective treatment of a prevalent disorder." (Surgeon General's Report, 2001, p. 149). Others suggest that the changes may be a function of increased prescription rates for girls and teens with AD/HD (Safer, 2000). The percentage of children who receive medication of any kind is small. Goldman et al. (1998) reported that 2.8 percent of elementary-aged students were on medication, and that stimulants accounted for 99 percent of the prescribed medications. So while there has been an increase in the number of prescriptions, a relatively low overall rate of stimulant use is reported in school-aged children. Physicians in the community tend to use less than optimal doses, have fewer follow-up monitoring sessions, and less medication compliance than recommended by the MTA study (Jensen et al., 2001).

Surgeon General of the United States: Mental Health: A Report of the Surgeon General, December 1999 (http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/chapter3/sec4.html)

The Science of AD/HD (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/science)

These links both report an American Medical Association study that concluded that there is little evidence of overdiagnosis ADHD or overprescription of ADHD medicine
Physicians say ADHD is not overdiagnosed (http://www.apa.org/monitor/jun98/adhd.html)
Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Children and Adolescents (http://www.addcentre.co.uk/AMAreport.htm)

Here are the results of a study saying ADHD is not universally overdiagnosed or overmedicated in American schoolchildren, but it is overdiagnosed and overtreated in some US communities
ADHD among American Schoolchildren (http://www.srmhp.org/0201/adhd.html)

Interesting article about ADD being both over- and under-diagnosed
ADHD--Overcoming the Specter of Overdiagnosis (http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p020801b.html)

I'm not going to claim that AD/HD is "overdiagnosed". However, it is sometimes diagnosed without proper testing. A simple EEG can conclusively show if a child has AD/HD or is simply rambunctious. Any diagnosis of AD/HD that relies purely on behavioral observation must be suspect.
It is the equivilant of a doctor diagnosing cancer without so much as a single biopsy.

My point is that the increase is not due to an increase the disease itself, an increase in population or even an increase in awareness. It could be that when parents see their children with behavioural faults and difficulties in learning, they look straight for any thing to blame other than themselves. But yet behaviour faults are most likely caused by failures to provide adequate parenting skills.

My point is made.

Indeed sir. Good point. Also, in fact, not just dyslexia and autism - not even merely adding ADD - but pretty much anything. You've describe the "blame society" and you realize it is working against traditional values - like er, personal responsibility - which are in turn being eroded away, generation by generation.

The problem is people are always saying this - it's like the boy who cried wolf, except it's the entire Western civilization instead of the boy, and it's a long, slow death from within instead of a quick death to an immediate enemy.

But hey, feel free to not listen to the screaming. I mean hey, that boy is ALWAYS crying wolf. That means there can't be a wolf. Sleep safely tonight, everyone. There is no wolf.

Ignorance and bad behaviour = dyslexia and autismI didn't know you had dyslexia.

My point is that the increase is not due to an increase the disease itself, an increase in population or even an increase in awareness. It could be that when parents see their children with behavioural faults and difficulties in learning, they look straight for any thing to blame other than themselves. But yet behaviour faults are most likely caused by failures to provide adequate parenting skills.

My point is made.
All that build up, all that research, all that argument was wasted. It wasn't until the next-to-last statement that you actually introduced your actual argument, and then you provided absolutely no support whatsover for your statement except "My point is made". Let's add in the title of the thread, " Ignorance and bad behaviour = dyslexia and autism".

Yeah. That's trolling. At best, it's horrible debating; at worst, it's deliberate baiting.

A suggestion, New British Glory. Learn logical debating methods before dropping one of these into the forums again. I'd hate to have to take official notice of this behavior. In the meantime, I think the other respondents to this topic have adequately addressed the failings of your argument, and I'll settle for that this time.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

I didn't read further than the first post, but I must say this: as a semiautistic guy I can only hope that in the future Eastern Europe will also have too many and not too few informed enough parents for that to happen here.

I also need to apologize for the horrid syntax abuse in the above sentence :cool:

My point is made.
It is commonly thought that this is because of the environment. Before the industrial revolution, our biggest problem was deforestation. Then it was coal and oil burning. Now it's pumping carcinogens and other deleterious substances into our environment. All of those are compounded and made more severe as the next occurs. Autism and A.D.D. rates are increasing, but I doubt that at least the former is from greater awareness. You can't confuse an autist. It's for the same reason that, in some places, a woman's breast milk is too toxic to be safe for anyone, including her children, to drink.

<sigh> We had a whole other thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=401219&page=1&pp=15&highlight=Attention+Deficit) a few weeks ago about ADD. Dozens of your fellow NS'ers have ADD, including myself. (And I am an adult, who was not diagnosed until I was an adult.)

I urge you to accept the information below and not comment further on a subject about which you know little.



Wow just a tad sensitive are we?

The links would have been interesting with being snotty about it.

Oh well to each his own.

I am distrustful of your criticisms of autism, but i think there may be a bit of merit in your ideas on dyslexia. The only 'dyslexics' i've known were also pathological liars.

In any case, you ought to turn your sights to criticism of the major ill in american 'illness' - kids who won't sit still and won't pay attention - "AD(H)D."

I am distrustful of your criticisms of autism, but i think there may be a bit of merit in your ideas on dyslexia. The only 'dyslexics' i've known were also pathological liars.

In any case, you ought to turn your sights to criticism of the major ill in american 'illness' - kids who won't sit still and won't pay attention - "AD(H)D."

Wow. I didn't know I was a pathological liar. Thanks for pointing that out. :rolleyes:

Wow just a tad sensitive are we?

The links would have been interesting with being snotty about it.

Oh well to each his own.

Moi? Snotty? Perish the thought.

You might consider that your remarks were pretty offensive to someone that has ADD. (Be glad some of the others on NS didn't respond. I was relatively nice.)

Nonetheless, I was rather harsh. Rudeness is not only undesirable, but also unpersuasive. I apologize. And I thank you for your thoughtful response.

I hope you do read some of the links. ADD is a real, serious disorder. It can have very deleterious effects that can be minimized by effective treatment. No doubt there are some that are misdiagnosed as having ADD. There are also more significant problems with overdiagnosis of other medical conditions.

I am distrustful of your criticisms of autism, but i think there may be a bit of merit in your ideas on dyslexia. The only 'dyslexics' i've known were also pathological liars.

In any case, you ought to turn your sights to criticism of the major ill in american 'illness' - kids who won't sit still and won't pay attention - "AD(H)D."

Yikes! Say it ain't so, New Granada. Say it ain't so.

I alway sort of knew I was dyslexic, but didn't bother getting tested till I was at uni (free pc and mini-disc!), where it turned out I was very.

I think that if a child is diagnosed as being dyslexic at a young age, they may use that as an excuse to achieve less well, and the expectations of others may be lowered. Same with some autistic children.

But that's very different from them just being made up afflictions.

Some on the right seem to view understanding psycological and medical conditions as a bad thing, because that then absolves individuals of some of their responsibilty. Whereas I think that personal responsibility is more of a pragmatic necessity in a modern society than a reflection of an absolute truth.

Maybe we should be more honest about the lack of justice in modern society, and make it clear that, while those with certain handicaps may not be to 'blame' for this, they will still have to suffer, and be judged along side those without such handicaps in the market-place.

I'd assume the original poster has never met a child with severe autism. I have, and she was much more than "badly behaved." She could hardly speak, and basically only repeated whatever you said to her back at you. She found comfort in music and repetitiveness, like walking on the side of a fence and touching every fence post.

I'm not surewhat the organic basis for autism is, but I'm sure someone out there does and I hope they share. I think it's something to do with a disconnection in the brain.

I don't know much about dyslexia, except to say that there probably are some cases where there is a legit brain disorder, and others where there isn't.

Moi? Snotty? Perish the thought.

You might consider that your remarks were pretty offensive to someone that has ADD. (Be glad some of the others on NS didn't respond. I was relatively nice.)

Nonetheless, I was rather harsh. Rudeness is not only undesirable, but also unpersuasive. I apologize. And I thank you for your thoughtful response.

I hope you do read some of the links. ADD is a real, serious disorder. It can have very deleterious effects that can be minimized by effective treatment. No doubt there are some that are misdiagnosed as having ADD. There are also more significant problems with overdiagnosis of other medical conditions.

Well I am not exactly the great communicator. ;)

It was not my intent to suggest it didn't exist. Even though I read I did write "may exist" All I am saying there are people that seem to say ADD is the cause of everything. As to one of the examples mentioned. The monster kid is a monster around mom and yet acts "normal" around dad. So it was an excuse rather then a diagnosis.

I do thank you for the links. As I mentioned I don't know much about it to judge. ;)

To any and all affected people I do apologise for comments as they came across different then intended.

My, ignorance and blaming the victim. *sigh* How nice.

Yikes! Say it ain't so, New Granada. Say it ain't so.

I have a lot of trouble believing in an illness that has no causes and wasnt 'discovered' until they found something to sell to treat it.

My, ignorance and blaming the victim. *sigh* How nice.

What me?

Well, I was going to comment on this as someone who has worked with children who have autism and dyslexia. But seeing as the original thesis has already been so thoroughly trounced, I guess Ill move on to another thread.

I have a lot of trouble believing in an illness that has no causes and wasnt 'discovered' until they found something to sell to treat it.

What did they have to sell? I never took drugs for it.

Just because the people you know use it as a crutch doesn't disallow it's existence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/440261.stm

What did they have to sell? I never took drugs for it.

Just because the people you know use it as a crutch doesn't disallow it's existence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/440261.stm


I was referring to ADD about the drugs.

I have a lot of trouble believing in an illness that has no causes and wasnt 'discovered' until they found something to sell to treat it.

I have the greatest respect for you, New Granada, but on this issue you are speaking from ignorance.

Not knowing 100% what causes an illness does not mean it doesn't exist. We don't know the causes of lots of illnesses.

And ADD was recognized long before Ritalin existed.

Please read some of the sources I provided earlier, which include the US Surgeon General and the National Institute of Mental Health, to which I add the following from Myths and Misconceptions About AD/HD: Science over Cynicism (http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/myths) :

Myth # 1: AD/HD is Not a Real Disorder

This is a common refrain expressed by individuals who assert that the psychiatric community, in concert with pharmaceutical companies, created AD/HD to drum up business for private practices and to increase profits for drug companies. According to the National Institutes of Health, the Surgeon General of the United States, and an international community of clinical researchers, psychiatrists and physicians, there is general consensus that AD/HD is a valid disorder with severe, lifelong consequences (NIH, 2000; U.S. Surgeon General's Report, 2001). Studies over the past 100 years demonstrate that AD/HD is a chronic disorder that has a negative impact on virtually every aspect of daily social, emotional, academic and work functioning (Barkley, 1998). Studies show that children with AD/HD have higher rates of other psychiatric disorders, higher frequency of hospitalizations, emergency room visits and total medical costs compared to individuals without AD/HD (Liebson et al., 2001).

Adolescent outcomes of children with AD/HD show that they are more likely to drop out of school, to rarely complete college, to have fewer friends and to participate in antisocial activities more than children without AD/HD (Barkley, Fischer, Edelbrock, & Smallish, 1990). Rates of cigarette, alcohol and marijuana use appear more often in those with both AD/HD and conduct disorders, and were two to five times more frequent than in adolescents with AD/HD alone or for those without it. Later in life, adults with AD/HD have employment difficulties, suffer from depression and personality disorders, have multiple auto accidents, and have high rates of sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancies compared to individuals without AD/HD (Fischer, Barkley, Smallish, & Fletcher, 2002). Overwhelming evidence suggests that AD/HD is a real disorder with serious consequences.

And this medical consensus statement:

National Institutes of Health Consensus Development Conference Statement: Diagnosis and Treatment of Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (AD/HD) (http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/110/110_statement.htm)

I was referring to ADD about the drugs.

Ahhh my misunderstanding.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ritalin is a stimulant, an upper. If you give it to someone who does not have ADHD they will become hyper. Only people with ADHD have that weird chemical imbalance that causes uppers to bring them down.

So, to sum up this thread:


blah blah blah,

ignorant viewpoint,

shorsighted response,


blah blah blah.


I thumb my nose at the lot of you.


PPPPPPPPPPPPBHBHBHBHBHBHBHBHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

Ritalin is a stimulant, an upper. If you give it to someone who does not have ADHD they will become hyper. Only people with ADHD have that weird chemical imbalance that causes uppers to bring them down.
Is ritalin an amphetamine, or amphetamine derived? Just curious since this sounds familiar from pharmacology.

Is ritalin an amphetamine, or amphetamine derived? Just curious since this sounds familiar from pharmacology.

the National Institute of Drug Abuse says about Ritalin:
Methylphenidate is a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant. It has effects similar to, but more potent than, caffeine and less potent than amphetamines. It has a notably calming and "focusing" effect on those with ADHD, particularly children.

More info at: http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/ritalin.html

the National Institute of Drug Abuse says about Ritalin:
Methylphenidate is a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant. It has effects similar to, but more potent than, caffeine and less potent than amphetamines. It has a notably calming and "focusing" effect on those with ADHD, particularly children.

More info at: http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofax/ritalin.html
Cool, thanks. I remember one of my lecturers saying something about people taking amphetamines to help them concentrate during exams. The problem was that if they took too much they'd go too hyper to concentrate. :p

I could use some dexedrine for the occaisional hangover.

What me?
Are you the author of this thread? I've forgotten, but if you are, I mean you.

Cool, thanks. I remember one of my lecturers saying something about people taking amphetamines to help them concentrate during exams. The problem was that if they took too much they'd go too hyper to concentrate. :p

Its a weird effect when someone with ADD takes the right medication. I sleep better after taking my Dexedrine. When I first tried ADD medication, I took a long nap after taking it. I felt so much calmer.

As to the pharmacuetical relationship between Ritalin and amphetamines, this site (http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?ID=2846) seems helpful.

And here is the prescribing information (http://www.pharma.us.novartis.com/product/pi/pdf/ritalin_ritalin-sr.pdf) (pdf).

Its a weird effect when someone with ADD takes the right medication. I sleep better after taking my Dexedrine. When I first tried ADD medication, I took a long nap after taking it. I felt so much calmer.

As to the pharmacuetical relationship between Ritalin and amphetamines, this site (http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?ID=2846) seems helpful.

And here is the prescribing information (http://www.pharma.us.novartis.com/product/pi/pdf/ritalin_ritalin-sr.pdf) (pdf).
Thanks for that. So they're related but not the same. I really pity people taking monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI) they can't take any medications or eat anything! :p

Are you the author of this thread? I've forgotten, but if you are, I mean you.

Nope not me! *phew* :p :D

my 4 year old used to act up fairly badly at times - it turns it was food related - these days he has no chocolate and is very well behaved most of the time - sometimes I do wonder if 'some' (not all) ADD cases could be caused by something as simple as a food allergy/reaction as that could explain the increase in recent years - food has alot more additives in than it used to have

that said ADD IS a recognised illness that can be dibilltating for both the sufferer and their family and I sent my heartfelt sympathies out to those who do suffer from it

Autism and Dispraxia are also widely recognised conditions and the supposed link between autism and the MMR jab has been categorically refuted many many times

Maybe these increased rates lie not within the awareness rate but instead with society itself.

I lived with a boy who was diagnosed as dyslexic when I was a child. He was a lazy, obnoxious piece of crap who used his diagnosis to avoid his homework, but he was dyslexic nonetheless. He could read adequatlely enough, but he could barely write his own name at the age of 15. His condition was genuine, though, and his family did all they could to compensate for his inability. Dyslexia isn't a term that's bandied around to explain away poor academic performance. There is a genuine inability to learn by the techniques that work for the majority of human beings, and to discard it as a feature of a blame society implies to me that while you may have read a couple of articles on the topic, your comprehension of the real-world paradigms is severely underdeveloped.

On that note, I doubt you've ever met a child with autism before. I spent some time in a carer's position at an autism respite unit whilst at university, and the incapacity of these children to operate socially is heartwrenching. I severely doubt that any parent would consent to label their child autisic unless the child presented with features which truly exemplified this disorder.

Yes, the causes of dyslexia and autism are severely medicalised, but the 'treatment' of such conditions are not. The aetiology is most likely neurololgical, and most likely genetic, but the integration of these children into the mainstream is not by filling them with drugs, although drugs can be helpful in managing the associated behavioural features of the condition. It is only through patience and understanding of these children that they will become contributing members of society, but in the meantime lets respect the dignity of difference instead of denigrating them for a condition that we still do not understand. :headbang:

There is a boy in my year at school who is definitely Autistic. I know this for a fact. On the other hand, there were two other boys who were recently diagnosed as being Autistic too. And I'll tell you, they're not. They're just idiots.

There is also a clinic or some such near where I live which supposedly "tests" for dyslexia. However, they say that everyone who goes is dyslexic. This is very unlikely. Again, most of these people are simply stupid, but their parents can't accept that.

Now I am not arguing that Autism and Dyslexia don't exist. I'm sure they do, and I'm sure a number of people genuinely have them. But my point- and I suspect the point of the original poster- is that in the vast majority of cases it is a misdiagnosis.

I remember watching a TV program about a stupid wee brat who's behaviour was studied and he was diagnosed with Autism. The boy was not Autistic; I was watching it with both my parents, who each work with handicapped people etc, and they both agreed he was simply a spoilt brat.

There is a boy in my year at school who is definitely Autistic. I know this for a fact. On the other hand, there were two other boys who were recently diagnosed as being Autistic too. And I'll tell you, they're not. They're just idiots.

There is also a clinic or some such near where I live which supposedly "tests" for dyslexia. However, they say that everyone who goes is dyslexic. This is very unlikely. Again, most of these people are simply stupid, but their parents can't accept that.

Now I am not arguing that Autism and Dyslexia don't exist. I'm sure they do, and I'm sure a number of people genuinely have them. But my point- and I suspect the point of the original poster- is that in the vast majority of cases it is a misdiagnosis.

I remember watching a TV program about a stupid wee brat who's behaviour was studied and he was diagnosed with Autism. The boy was not Autistic; I was watching it with both my parents, who each work with handicapped people etc, and they both agreed he was simply a spoilt brat.

I'm glad you are personally qualified to diagnose (or rather undiagnose) dyslexia and Autism.

For those of us without the advanced degrees in psychology or medicine, would you care to show any evidence that "in the vast majority of cases [either Autism or dyslexia] is a misdiagnosis?

Nope not me! *phew* :p :D

Everyone can tell you my Meow is worse than my bite. :D

Ok, I withdraw, with apologies. I was coming from an understanding that Asperger's was characterised by outwardly largely normal speech and behaviour patterns. But you're right, the stresses can provoke outbursts.

I am also a "bad parent". My kid is high functioning, but not Asperger's, and there's no way you could think his reaction to stress is just 'bad behaviour'. Ironically enough, most people are much more likely to comment on how (almost unnaturally) well behaved he is. Not to mention affectionate and funny (thank God!).My son is very very keen on rules, and loses his rag with his classmates, teachers, whoever, when rules are broken. which gets him into trouble. he's also not very bright about social hierarchies, which got him into trouble a lot at school, although he's getting better at that. And the school is getting better too, trying to give him clear and precise rules for social behaviour rather than relying on the innate social sense which he and I don't have.

I have to wonder if dyslexia is basically a social construct as writing isn't something that we evolved with. Writing is basically taking parts of the brain that handle language and vision and applying them to interpret and generate lines on paper. As for autism, there is some pretty hard evidence that it is genetic.

I agree wholehearted with much of your post, though. I'm all against determinism and all for personal responsibility.

I have to wonder if dyslexia is basically a social construct as writing isn't something that we evolved with. Writing is basically taking parts of the brain that handle language and vision and applying them to interpret and generate lines on paper. As for autism, there is some pretty hard evidence that it is genetic.

I agree wholehearted with much of your post, though. I'm all against determinism and all for personal responsibility.
what? belief that there are such things as illnesses = belief in determinism? seriously?

"dyslexia is a social construct" isn't very helpful is it? If what you are saying is that people are only considered dyslexic because society encourages them to write, which their brains aren't very good at, then, yes, that's true. If nobody wrote anything, nobody would be considered dyslexic. So?

Interesting bit about the numbers of Autism quadrupling (though it isn't said over what time period).
I would say one of the most obvious reasons why this may be the birth of the PC, Internet and Gameboxes.
Bit of a no-brainer really. Look at some of the symptoms of autism - misunderstanding social, visual, facial or body language clues as to the real meanings of what was spoken.
How can you develop this skill chatting on the internet, or playing on a PS2?
Difficulty in development of imaginative activities. Again, why bother when the latest game does it all for you?

I would wager that a lot of these autistic ppl are only child - which itself has been a growing phenomenon in recent times. Add to this ppl marrying and having children a lot later, as well as continuing working. Add in the increasing social fear of being attacked or abducted if you go out anywhere and you have a child on their own for several hours a day.
So what is the easiest way to control your child? By plunking it down in front of a X-Box or PC until you get home.
Having taught a few kids with Autistic symptoms, the biggest common factor between them all was their fascination and enormous use of computers. That's all they did outside of coming to class.
I know it's a bit of a Chicken-and-egg argument about which influenced the other. Did computer usage cause Autistic symptoms, or is it just a result of their condition?
However, parts of the brain develop at certain crucial times. For example, if a child isn't exposed to language at a certain critical age (1-4 I think offhand), they will never be able to learn to communicate. The part of the brain that controls this just doesn't develop - and once they're through that stage, the brain can't 'go back' and re-start that particular section. That's why feral children raised by animals don't usually make it and are institutionalised for life. They also completely lack empathy, as that's also a stage that is developed at the same time as language acquisition.
I wouldn't be surprised that learning social skills (definitely) and developing imagination (probably) also have critical stages as we grow. Sticking an only child in front of a PC or gameboy for several hours waiting for their parents to get home is hardly a good way to develop these skills.

I think there's also that now people are so worried about anything that any deviation away from the norm is immediately seized upon and the poor child is subjected to every test possible until at least one learning disorder is diagnosed. Then of course the parents don't have to reflect over whether it was their poor parenting skills that have caused the problems, because their child has a learning disorder. But that's just MHO. :)

Interesting bit about the numbers of Autism quadrupling (though it isn't said over what time period).
I would say one of the most obvious reasons why this may be the birth of the PC, Internet and Gameboxes.
Bit of a no-brainer really. Look at some of the symptoms of autism - misunderstanding social, visual, facial or body language clues as to the real meanings of what was spoken.
How can you develop this skill chatting on the internet, or playing on a PS2?
Difficulty in development of imaginative activities. Again, why bother when the latest game does it all for you?

I would wager that a lot of these autistic ppl are only child - which itself has been a growing phenomenon in recent times. Add to this ppl marrying and having children a lot later, as well as continuing working. Add in the increasing social fear of being attacked or abducted if you go out anywhere and you have a child on their own for several hours a day.
So what is the easiest way to control your child? By plunking it down in front of a X-Box or PC until you get home.
Having taught a few kids with Autistic symptoms, the biggest common factor between them all was their fascination and enormous use of computers. That's all they did outside of coming to class.
I know it's a bit of a Chicken-and-egg argument about which influenced the other. Did computer usage cause Autistic symptoms, or is it just a result of their condition?
However, parts of the brain develop at certain crucial times. For example, if a child isn't exposed to language at a certain critical age (1-4 I think offhand), they will never be able to learn to communicate. The part of the brain that controls this just doesn't develop - and once they're through that stage, the brain can't 'go back' and re-start that particular section. That's why feral children raised by animals don't usually make it and are institutionalised for life. They also completely lack empathy, as that's also a stage that is developed at the same time as language acquisition.
I wouldn't be surprised that learning social skills (definitely) and developing imagination (probably) also have critical stages as we grow. Sticking an only child in front of a PC or gameboy for several hours waiting for their parents to get home is hardly a good way to develop these skills.
DH, I've got a lot of time for your posts normally, but your speculations are way off-line here. The autism spectrum is broad, but there is a qualitative difference between those on it and those off it, not just a difference in degrees of behaviour.

Diagnosis of extreme autism is usually very early - it's completely obvious. Diagnosis of higher functioning autism in the UK is typically around the age of three or so - when kids start going to school, and the characteristic inability of those on autistic spectrum to engage fully in a social environment becomes apparent. It's also the age when 'late developers' in language skills should have grasped the basics of language content and structure. Again, it's a characteristic trait of non-Asperger's autism that language is impaired in some way. This is long before the sort of factors - computer games &c - you mention become an issue. But in fact, most parents of autistic children will tell you they knew something was up long before that.

Take my experience with my kid. Up until the age of about 15 months, he was developing perfectly normally - good language development, good spatial skills, high pattern recognition, ate anything and everything. Then, round about the age of fifteen months, he got what seemed like some kind of a mild cold for a week or so. Over the course of that period, his diet closed down completely - all he would eat were honey sandwiches, his language development practically stopped dead in its tracks, and he started behaving oddly with random tantrums. Within a few months, we were suspecting autism. He's high functioning, so it wasn't until two years later, when he was completely failing to cope with school that we got the diagnosis. This is a very typical experience.

Now they don't know the causes. There seems to be a genetic component, but the massive increase in incidence over the past couple of decades suggests an environmental component. It may of course be that there is a genetic pre-disposition to sensitivity to an environmental trigger. It would be nice if the government spent as much money on finding the cause as they are prepared to spend disproving the MMR link, but it may be they are afraid of the financial consequences of isolating an environmental factor.

Oh, and as far as I know there is no link between autism and single child families. Unless there's a measurable effect from parents stopping when they have an autistic kid because (a) they don't want another (you're more likely to have an(other) autistic kid if you've got one already); and (b) they can be an awful lot of work and worry.
I think there's also that now people are so worried about anything that any deviation away from the norm is immediately seized upon and the poor child is subjected to every test possible until at least one learning disorder is diagnosed. Then of course the parents don't have to reflect over whether it was their poor parenting skills that have caused the problems, because their child has a learning disorder. But that's just MHO. :)
Now, because I know you're basically a good guy, let me try to explain nicely why this is an incredibly offensive thing to say. You're not a parent, but I'm sure you can empathise.

My children are the most precious thing in the world to me and my wife. We would both give our lives for them in a heartbeat, without even thinking about whether we were glad to do so or not. We love them to bits. This is not a boast, it's no big deal, most parents feel the same.

So imagine you're a parent of a small child. Some chance thing happens that leaves your child with a permanent head injury that means for the rest of their life they will find it incredibly difficult to make friends and probably unable to lead an independant life. When you die, they will probably be unable to cope on their own. Trust me, this is probably the second-worst thing that could ever happen to you (the worst being the death of a child).

Then someone waltzes up and cheerfully announces, "Hey, you're some bad parent. Fancy injuring your baby like that! Why didn't you think before you did that?"

Get the picture? It's been some thirty years since I've been in a fight, but if someone said that to my face, I would be propelling them, face first, through the nearest wall. I would then be throwing a lot of scientific papers and publications at them to show them why they're wrong.

my two pence worth...

there are kids out there who have learning difficulties. These learning difficulties are caused by difficult home lives, poor home support, poor diet, and other such social factors. However these are learning issues and not medical conditions, and can often be treated by dealing with the underlying social issue causing the problem, as well as ensuring that supportive and intelligent educators are available, who are willing to put in the time and effort for these kids.

However there is no getting away from the fact that Dyslexia exists, and is not caused by the type of issues outlines above. it comes in many different forms, and varying levels of how it affects a person's life. I understand that those who suffer from dyslexia are also more likely to suffer from colour blindness. dyslexia can be treated, and once again it's the intelligent willing educators, and possibly specialist techniques that can help those with dyslexia to lead a normal life.

as far as autism goes, i think everyone who thinks it doesn't exist should visit an autism centre for kids, and read 'The curious incident of the dog in the night time'. this book really made me think, and understand that this kind of behaviour isn't just the result of poor parenting or a bad diet, although neither of those things will help the condition (but then they wouldn't help a non autistic person either would they?)

Could All Please Check The Edit On The Main Post As There Seems To Have Been Some Confusion As To My Point. Thank You.

Could All Please Check The Edit On The Main Post As There Seems To Have Been Some Confusion As To My Point. Thank You.

That you think your edit helps is as sad and misguided as your original post.

Read what has been said here again and recognize your ignorance.

That you think your edit helps is as sad and misguided as your original post.

Read what has been said here again and recognize your ignorance.

No I just came onto make that edit because I left it out. If I really wanted to listen to a bunch of politcally correct whiners whimper on and on, then I will get a copy of the New Labour manifesto. And by the way, my cousin is autistic.

No I just came onto make that edit because I left it out. If I really wanted to listen to a bunch of politcally correct whiners whimper on and on, then I will get a copy of the New Labour manifesto. And by the way, my cousin is autistic.
You really are a sad little troll aren't you?

You really are a sad little troll aren't you?

When they trot out the good old "OMG PC THUG!!!!" you can be pretty sure they're a troll... And the name doesn't do him much good either. *cough*NF*cough* :p