NationStates Jolt Archive

The recent Minnesota shooting had nothing to do with the fact that the kid was a Goth. I am sorta Gothic, or at least very morbid (I made a coffin purse and a windchime out of bones, and enjoy Edward Gorey, EA Poe, Lovecraft, and Tim Burton) and being Gothic has nothing to do with killing people. It is a peaceful movement, not a violent one.

Also, the article I read suggested he listened to "violent, gothic music, like that of Marilyn Manson..." and Marilyn Manson is NOT goth. He's... Wierd, but not goth.

I have been out of the loop for awhile... Who is claiming that kid beeing
a goth had something to do with this insident...???

I wouldn't read to much into this if I were you. Just remember that people are itching to blame why this guy went psycho on public symbols. It's easy to blame Manson (whose music sucks, IMO) because he's a shocking public figure. Nevermind the fact that Manson is a certified genius, most people think he's just a psycho who inspires other psychos.

It's pathetic, I know, but human beings are excellent blame shifters.

Just google "Goth" under News in Google. There are several links.

I thought this was going to be some sort of new historical perspective on the good old Roman Empire and the Goths.

And anyway, Manson doesn't have to "truly" be Goth to "sound Goth" especially to those of us who are not into it and don't draw fine distinctions. Just like music can be 'like classical' even if, in actuality it's Early Baroque.

On Spiegel.de is a report saying that he supposedly was a Nazi. There's nothing in it about him being Goth, though.

Fran

Why don't they blame the people he killed? I mean, there had to be some internal (not related to video games, music, TV, fashion, etc.) reason, no matter how fucked-up, WHY he killed them, right? :rolleyes:

Maybe they should find out how badly this kid got picked on... I bet he just snapped one day and gave people exactly what they deserved. :mad:

The recent Minnesota shooting had nothing to do with the fact that the kid was a Goth. I am sorta Gothic, or at least very morbid (I made a coffin purse and a windchime out of bones, and enjoy Edward Gorey, EA Poe, Lovecraft, and Tim Burton) and being Gothic has nothing to do with killing people. It is a peaceful movement, not a violent one.

Also, the article I read suggested he listened to "violent, gothic music, like that of Marilyn Manson..." and Marilyn Manson is NOT goth. He's... Wierd, but not goth.
He is industrial not goth (music clasification) and agreed people can be disturbed no matter what they dress like

First Rome, now Minnesota.

:D

Yeah, any "group" or "scene" member can be fukked-up, only it seems to me that every incident of violence is blamed on the Goths.

In the 60's and 70's it was hippies who were responsible.

In the 80's and 90's it was Satanists wot dunnit.

And now, in the 2000s, it's the Goths who did it.

first of all , quit defining goths, it means something different to everyone in involved. its a counterculture movement, with many different styles and explainations.
second of all, it has also mentioned that the kid was a NAzi skinhead, which is impossible, due to the fact that he is native american.
what no one seems to noticed that his mom was in a nursing home, with severe brain damage, and his father killed himself at the critical age when growing boys need a father the most. then, he moves in with his OLD grandparents, who are incapable of understanding a teen ager, (as most grandparents are) the resulting range of chaotic emotions and mental difficulty this kid went through would have led him to identify with any type of underground situation that took him , in a fantasy, OFF the reservation, OUT of the middle of nowhere, and into to some semblance of a normal life.
the media will grab hold of anything to negative to make it their cause. the news media in california did not know his exact age, or if he was homeschooled or not, yet had a 6 minute segment on the fact that he loved hitler. all of you need to wake up, stop being ignorant and uneducated AND stop believing the spin machine.

"They" are going to blame:
a) school bullies
b) poverty
c) his fucked up homelife
d) comic books
e) video games
f) role playing games
g) goths (or anyone else that scares them)
h) guns
i) the "culture of violence"

in short, anything except the fucktard himself.

I'm so friggin' sick of you Goth apologists.

How many "The Cure" and "Beetlejuice"-induced killing sprees must America endure before we criminalize Goth "culture."

BTW, here's a great Goth shirt (http://www.glarkware.com/securestore/c181846p16493115.2.html). Most really are like indicated on this shirt. ;)

Fran

Occidio Multus- never even tried to define it.

Whispering Legs- I wholeheartedly agree.

First Rome, now Minnesota.

:D
I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought this ;)

I did indeed forget Poland, insignificant as it is.
Beetlejuice was funny, not killing-spree inducing.

Fucktard.

I'm so friggin' sick of you Goth apologists.

How many "The Cure" and "Beetlejuice"-induced killing sprees must America endure before we criminalize Goth "culture."
Because we all know cloths and music choice causes murder :p

I did indeed forget Poland, insignificant as it is.
Beetlejuice was funny, not killing-spree inducing.

Fucktard.

Why don't you go and contemplate the darkness.

i feel that you did try to define it, germanichia (spelling?) by stating the movement was a peaceful one. because i think it is more violent for some, less for others. it simply is too broad a range of people to state that they are all for peace. that is NOT what they mainly say. have you ever heard "gothic person" say- " i am goth because i love everyone?"
i would like to say, congrats on NOT making this a marylin manson thread.

Of course. While I bury myself in "The Doubtful Guest," I plot mass murder and torture.

As I read about how it dissapeared and was found in a tureen, I ready my collection of explosives.

i would like to add, i am not trying to say that goths are violent, but i am trying to say they should not be categorized as peace loving lambs either.

Especially not the ones wearing SS-Uniforms.

Believe me, they really exist.

Fran

Of course. While I bury myself in "The Doubtful Guest," I plot mass murder and torture.

As I read about how it dissapeared and was found in a tureen, I ready my collection of explosives.
you should read some comments your fellow people have made. like i stated before, GOTHS ARE NEITHER VIOLENT OR NON VIOLENT. THE SUBCULTURE IS ABOUT A STYLE OF DRESS,PERSONAL IDEALS< CERTAIN MUSIC< AND A FASCINATION WITH DEATH> if i start posting profile exceprts from vampire freaks dot com, you are going to look stupid.

Because we all know cloths and music choice causes murder :p

No, getting pierced, wearing black, and looking disaffected all the time makes you violent.

Occidio Multus- well, all the Goffs I know are peaceful. Many are vegetarian, or don't wear animal products.

Not many, I think, would kill people.

Also, there are so many conserative fukktards, and the Environmental Liberation Front, and other weirdos, that I think it is unfair to target only the Goths.

being Gothic has nothing to do with killing people. It is a peaceful movement, not a violent one.


Actually, the "real" goth movement is completely about violence and killing. It's about marauding half-naked across Europe, covering yourself in blue warpaint, raping Roman women and sacking Roman villages.

There aren't a lot of "real" goths left anymore.

Vampires digust me. That's why I have lots of stakes and a medieval crossbow with a 230-pound draw.

Blue paint? You mean wode? That was the ancient celtic scots, stupid?

Actually, the "real" goth movement is completely about violence and killing. It's about marauding half-naked across Europe, covering yourself in blue warpaint, raping Roman women and sacking Roman villages.

There aren't a lot of "real" goths left anymore.

Those aren't real Goths. Real Goths don't listen to Marilyn Manson or pillage Europe or shoot kids at school. Real Goths are mostly about writing poems on black construction paper.

Occidio Multus- well, all the Goffs I know are peaceful. Many are vegetarian, or don't wear animal products.

Not many, I think, would kill people.

Also, there are so many conserative fukktards, and the Environmental Liberation Front, and other weirdos, that I think it is unfair to target only the Goths.
no one is targeting just the goths. read the news. they are more into his supposed WP affiliation. he was teased, they SAY, for wearing a trench coat,. and being tall.

Those aren't real Goths. Real Goths don't listen to Marilyn Manson or pillage Europe or shoot kids at school. Real Goths are mostly about writing poems on black construction paper.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the original goths did pillage Europe.

RE: Wode -

My bad, sorry.

Actually, the "real" goth movement is completely about violence and killing. It's about marauding half-naked across Europe, covering yourself in blue warpaint, raping Roman women and sacking Roman villages.

There aren't a lot of "real" goths left anymore.
I think Goths these days are inspired by gothic literature not Gothic barbarians.

The Westgoths in the East? (Asterix-quote)

Fran

No, getting pierced, wearing black, and looking disaffected all the time makes you violent.
I see :p

But Asterix was an Amorican Gaul(?)

And anyway, Manson doesn't have to "truly" be Goth to "sound Goth" especially to those of us who are not into it and don't draw fine distinctions.

firstly-manson's music doesnt sound gothic, nine inch nails is pretty dark but not manson, his music is total shit.

secondly-im tired of people steriotyping me cause im a goth, i dont want to kill everyone i see and although i have a fascination with death doesnt mean i worship it.

Aremorican, I think.

But in "Asterix und die Goten" they go to "Germany", which is East of "France", and Obelix of course doesn't get it at all why the "Westgoten" are in the East.

Fran

Armorican?

Didn't read the one you mentioned.

GO GOTH!

i suppose i can start with my position on goths:

if they wanna dress like vampires and listen to shitty music, thats fine, more power to 'em, let them do what they like.

now, in regards to pointing the finger:

its no one and nothing's fault except his own. theres this thing the media likes to ignore called personal responsibility and choice. As humans, we ALWAYS have choices. he chose to do what he did and as such, he'll face the reprocussions. blaming video games, the 'goth' movement, etc etc is pointless. even if he had two living, sane parents who hated him and everything he said, you still cant blame the parents. you can call them shitty parents, thats for sure, but you cant blame them unless they gave him the gun, in which case, thats negligence. it was a matter of personal choice.

now, what causes people to go off the deep end like that? i have a general outline of what i think has happened overall. when people have a mental illness or some attribute that is contrary to survival of that being, they usually get outside help to save their life or stop them from doing somthing stupid. when those people are fruitful and multiply they pass on that same instability that causes a lack of ability to adapt to situations, which is why i think people go bonkers: a lack of ability to adapt. now, when someone is unable to get help, like this, they go nuts. basically, society is operating contrary to darwin. the fittest are surviving, but so are the weak, and the weak are the ones who do shit like this.

there are 2 platforms to my argument: social and human.

socially, someone killing themselves or getting themselves locked up for all eternity is tragic.

when looking at the human race as a whole: you remove that defect from the gene pool and it winds up, down the road, being better off for everyone.

it sounds cold and it may be hard for some of you more conservative minded to wrap your head around, but think about it.


then go to darwinawards.com and have a laugh.

.... it has also mentioned that the kid was a NAzi skinhead, which is impossible, ....

why is it impossible for him to be a Nazi skinhead? I mean, it may be that he may not be the ideal 'master race', but very few really are, I mean, the Aryans, Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes, and fair skin, then you have adolf hitler, shorter, dark hair, not fair skin, and jewish bloodlinks.

Just because someone is counter to the popular ideas of something doesn't mean that its impossible to be that. Just like christians that judge, buddihist warriors that kill, samurai that break their oaths, vegans that eat meat in secret, etc...

not saying the guy was nazi or anything, just saying that just because the streotype doesn't match, doesn't mean that it isn't true.

The Visigoths are the absolute worst. Quite barbaric and prone to violence too...

The "Goth movement" was origionally a branch off of the punk culture, of people who were not interested in the violence and anger of it.
If this kid was "goth", or wore a trench coat or black, etc. doesn't mean anything since, there are people out there in baggy clothes and listening to rap gunning eachother down almost everyday(Just mentioning that blaming the children with guns on goth won't be logical). You can't blame it on his parents, even with mental illness its a choice to kill someone, being bullied doesn't force you to take a life.

The Visigoths are the absolute worst. Quite barbaric and prone to violence too...

I'll see your Visigoth and raise you an Ostrogoth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths

why is it impossible for him to be a Nazi skinhead? I mean, it may be that he may not be the ideal 'master race', but very few really are, I mean, the Aryans, Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes, and fair skin, then you have adolf hitler, shorter, dark hair, not fair skin, and jewish bloodlinks.

Just because someone is counter to the popular ideas of something doesn't mean that its impossible to be that. Just like christians that judge, buddihist warriors that kill, samurai that break their oaths, vegans that eat meat in secret, etc...

not saying the guy was nazi or anything, just saying that just because the streotype doesn't match, doesn't mean that it isn't true.
you have shown yourself to be ignorant of white nationalist ideals. it has nothiong to do with "ayrans" and EVERYTHING to do with european blood. that blond hair blue eyed gimmick, is just that, a gimmick. the true WN movement has gone far beyond the days of hitler.

I'll see your Visigoth and raise you an Ostrogoth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths
Ha! Did your puny Ostrogoths rape and plunder Tracia, Macedonia and parts of Greece? Did they win the Romans in 410 A.D.?

No! They were utter pussies! First the Huns buttf*cked them, then the Romans! Ha, I say, HA!

DAMN YOU AND YOUR OSTROGOTHS AND VISIGOTHS AND HUNS AND MONGOLIANS! Warlocks, Spammers, n00bi3s, mongolians, they're all the same.
Anyways, THIS IS ABOUT GOTHS, GOTHS ARE AN OFFSHOOT OF PUNKS, PUNKS ARE LIKE SKINHEADS, SKINHEADS ARE NAZIS! SO STOP WITH THE RAIDERS!

And by the way, the huns and everyone would have their pansy arses kikked by dem Vikkins.

DAMN YOU AND YOUR OSTROGOTHS AND VISIGOTHS AND HUNS AND MONGOLIANS! Warlocks, Spammers, n00bi3s, mongolians, they're all the same.
Anyways, THIS IS ABOUT GOTHS, GOTHS ARE AN OFFSHOOT OF PUNKS, PUNKS ARE LIKE SKINHEADS, SKINHEADS ARE NAZIS! SO STOP WITH THE RAIDERS!

And by the way, the huns and everyone would have their pansy arses kikked by dem Vikkins.

I see someone needs some hot chocolate and a blankee.

And how exactly are punks like skinheads? Some punks ARE skinheads, but the majority of punks are not. Thats just an ignorant thing to say that they are the same.

The "Goth movement" was origionally a branch off of the punk culture, of people who were not interested in the violence and anger of it.
If this kid was "goth", or wore a trench coat or black, etc. doesn't mean anything since, there are people out there in baggy clothes and listening to rap gunning eachother down almost everyday(Just mentioning that blaming the children with guns on goth won't be logical). You can't blame it on his parents, even with mental illness its a choice to kill someone, being bullied doesn't force you to take a life.

No, but people don't just automatically become normal socially well adjusted people by default until something turns them into maniacs. It takes some amount of being welcomed and included to make people socialized human beings with a vested interest in the happiness of those around them.

Sure, the guy thinks he's just sad and angry and that everyone is out to get him, but really, he just never had enough interaction with normal people to learn what being a normal person is like.

Ya, he shouldn't have taken a gun and gone shooting the place up, but bullies do share a certain amount of the blame. Just like a society that produces giant mobs of the destitute is going to have a crime problem, schools that permit huge amounts of bullying, whether on one kid or several, are going to have problems with kids going nuts and trying to kill people.

Locking up the occaisional kid who snaps isn't going to solve the problem any more than building bigger and bigger prisons will fix your crime problem. There is a root cause of behavior that needs to be addressed, and if addressing that problem can be misinterpreted as compassion, that's not a reason to reject it.

I see someone needs some hot chocolate and a blankee.
Nah. He got us both. Dem Vikkins were nasty.

I'll see your Visigoth and raise you an Ostrogoth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths

Dude, the Visigoths own all over the Ostrogoths.

DAMN YOU AND YOUR OSTROGOTHS AND VISIGOTHS AND HUNS AND MONGOLIANS! Warlocks, Spammers, n00bi3s, mongolians, they're all the same.
Anyways, THIS IS ABOUT GOTHS, GOTHS ARE AN OFFSHOOT OF PUNKS, PUNKS ARE LIKE SKINHEADS, SKINHEADS ARE NAZIS! SO STOP WITH THE RAIDERS!

And by the way, the huns and everyone would have their pansy arses kikked by dem Vikkins.

And Vikkins would be the norwegian death metalheads? That's a movement I wouldn't mind see rise up. They need to get some better singers though. Vikings recited, they didn't growl like they got their scrotums caught in their lute strings.

Goths are punks who are mopey instead of angry. It's sort of like the tao of punk.

Skinheads are punks who are hateful bigots rather than angry social activists. It's like the evangelical fundamentalism of punk.

Punks are people who see the social problems inherent in the current social structure and try to bring some awareness to it.

In all of those movements you'll have people who try to learn the handshake and wear the right clothes, but when you get down to it, they're only hanging out with that group because no one else will let them hang around. And they only listen to the music because... well, after even the alternative rock station has played a Britney Spears song for the umpteenth time, even I'll get to disheartened to change the channel.

And Vikkins would be the norwegian death metalheads? That's a movement I wouldn't mind see rise up. They need to get some better singers though. Vikings recited, they didn't growl like they got their scrotums caught in their lute strings.
Indeed. Your wait is over. Meet the typical Vikkin fan: http://www.morbid.demon.co.uk/fr_index.html?/ladies-viking-helmet.html

Goths are punks who are mopey instead of angry. It's sort of like the tao of punk.

Skinheads are punks who are hateful bigots rather than angry social activists. It's like the evangelical fundamentalism of punk.

Punks are people who see the social problems inherent in the current social structure and try to bring some awareness to it.

In all of those movements you'll have people who try to learn the handshake and wear the right clothes, but when you get down to it, they're only hanging out with that group because no one else will let them hang around. And they only listen to the music because... well, after even the alternative rock station has played a Britney Spears song for the umpteenth time, even I'll get to disheartened to change the channel. Well put, applauds... but are punks nowadays doing that? I'm a reject from the original era in the 70's... to me, todays 'punk' doesnt really seem to point to problems that much... (yes, maybe I have only heard the commercial side of it). And I AM the corporate whore nowadays... so I better shut up.

Indeed. Your wait is over. Meet the typical Vikkin fan: http://www.morbid.demon.co.uk/fr_index.html?/ladies-viking-helmet.html

Well put, applauds... but are punks nowadays doing that? I'm a reject from the original era in the 70's... to me, todays 'punk' doesnt really seem to point to problems that much... (yes, maybe I have only heard the commercial side of it). And I AM the corporate whore nowadays... so I better shut up.

If Janeane Garofalo counts as a punk, yes.
If Avril Lavigne counts as a punk, no.

If Janeane Garofalo counts as a punk, yes.
If Avril Lavigne counts as a punk, no.
Well, which one of them does count as punk to you? I'm not part of the sub-culture anymore, so I doubt I have a vote. Ms. Lavignes work I think I've heard... and didn't even know they call THAT punk nowadays. Ms. Garofalo is a stranger to me.

Edit: sorry... these are the bands people have said to be punk: Blinksomenumber, and Green Day... I have heard some songs from the latest GD in the radio... and can see why that would count as punk... but the bands like that Blink??? Nowadays it seems to refer to poor guitar playing skills accompanied with lousy timing on the drums. Ages ago they had more attributes than that... those 2 are for given, but the lyrics counted too. :)

Well, which one of them does count as punk to you? I'm not part of the sub-culture anymore, so I doubt I have a vote. Ms. Lavignes work I think I've heard... and didn't even know they call THAT punk nowadays. Ms. Garofalo is a stranger to me.

Sadly, some people consider Avril Lavigne a punk. :sigh: kids these days.

Janeane Garofalo (http://www.airamericaradio.com/shows/majorityreport/) is a comedian with a radio show. It's not a music show, but she keeps changing the music for coming out of commercial breaks, and puts punk music in the theme song. Her tastes are punk, the show reflects it, and she's most definitly a social activist.

Sadly, some people consider Avril Lavigne a punk. :sigh: kids these days.

Janeane Garofalo (http://www.airamericaradio.com/shows/majorityreport/) is a comedian with a radio show. It's not a music show, but she keeps changing the music for coming out of commercial breaks, and puts punk music in the theme song. Her tastes are punk, the show reflects it, and she's most definitly a social activist.Ahh! That lass. Seen her in Conan. Funny one.

Yeah, any "group" or "scene" member can be fukked-up, only it seems to me that every incident of violence is blamed on the Goths.

In the 60's and 70's it was hippies who were responsible.

In the 80's and 90's it was Satanists wot dunnit.

And now, in the 2000s, it's the Goths who did it.

Yeah. in the 80s goths were cute and cuddly. now they're weird. and all over the place.

Skinheads are punks who are hateful bigots rather than angry social activists. It's like the evangelical fundamentalism of punk.
I know a lot of skinheads who'd take you to one side and quietly, yet passionately, explain to you why not all evangelism is fundamentalist or hateful or bigoted.

Goths ARE to blame.

I know a lot of skinheads who'd take you to one side and quietly, yet passionately, explain to you why not all evangelism is fundamentalist or hateful or bigoted.well... wouldn't those skinheads be just the evangelists of punk (?), not evangelical fundamentalists? I still think that was a great generalisation. :)

Edit... I kinda assume you are talking about the straight-edgers..? They are good fun to talk to. Nice people.

Well, to the guy who didn't know about modern punk...the scene is pretty messed up. Bad Religion released an album last year (The Empire Strikes First) which was sweet. They're pretty much one of the only punk bands I like, but they're one of my favourite bands ever. Plus they were around in the 80s when the whole thing really came into full force which is cool. Avril Lavigne's songs are all about boys that don't like her or something. But she wears a tie and eyeliner, and apparantly that's more important than the message now.

ALL DARE TO CAST A POX APON THE GOTHS SHALL BE CURSED FROM HERE ON OUT.

yep i'm a goth and i just cursed you lot of goth bashers. (just so you know i don't belive in curses but there fun to place on people:p)

Well, to the guy who didn't know about modern punk...the scene is pretty messed up. Bad Religion released an album last year (The Empire Strikes First) which was sweet. They're pretty much one of the only punk bands I like, but they're one of my favourite bands ever. Plus they were around in the 80s when the whole thing really came into full force which is cool. Avril Lavigne's songs are all about boys that don't like her or something. But she wears a tie and eyeliner, and apparantly that's more important than the message now.Thank you. Raised listening to the Clash, Iggy, Misfits, the Pistols (well) and all, modern day punk sounds a bit diluted. Although, I have to say I have never had any strict line drawn... I'm a big fan of folk (Dylan to Billy Bragg), Reggae and straight forward rock. And I do have Bad Religion vinyls... just didn't know they are still at it :)

I know a lot of skinheads who'd take you to one side and quietly, yet passionately, explain to you why not all evangelism is fundamentalist or hateful or bigoted.

Not all evangelism is fundamentalist. I'm quite fond of "God's Politics: Why the Right Gets it Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get it," which is written by an evangelical minister. Evangelism just means preaching your beliefs. I'm fine with that. Fundamentalist Christianity is inherently discriminatory (not neccesarily racist)however, because it demands the notion of a "chosen people."

Evangelical fundamentalism, which means that you preach to others the idea that everything in the bible is literally true. And actions that go unpunished are required, lends itself to all sorts of horrible ideas.

Take Pat Robertson for example. Pure hate filled evil, masquerading behind the facade of a kindly Werther's candy distributing patriarch. He has publicly defended the idea of genocide of non-Christians because if you kill everyone of another religion then they'll die and go to hell. If you don't then they'll still die and go to hell, but they'll have kids and take those kids to hell with them too. And he only argues thus because there's a story in the Bible where the Hebrews wiped out the Caananites.

why is it impossible for him to be a Nazi skinhead? I mean, it may be that he may not be the ideal 'master race', but very few really are, I mean, the Aryans, Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes, and fair skin, then you have adolf hitler, shorter, dark hair, not fair skin, and jewish bloodlinks.

Just because someone is counter to the popular ideas of something doesn't mean that its impossible to be that. Just like christians that judge, buddihist warriors that kill, samurai that break their oaths, vegans that eat meat in secret, etc...

not saying the guy was nazi or anything, just saying that just because the streotype doesn't match, doesn't mean that it isn't true.

1. Hitler did NOT have Jewish "bloodlinks"
2. You are correct in saying that you do not have to be blue-eyed and fair-skinned to be a Nazi. There are National Socialist groups all over the world. There are even pro-Nazi groups in countries like Brazil, Spain and Japan, all of which have non-Aryan supporters.

1. Hitler did NOT have Jewish "bloodlinks"Says you
2. You are correct in saying that you do not have to be blue-eyed and fair-skinned to be a Nazi. There are National Socialist groups all over the world. There are even pro-Nazi groups in countries like Brazil, Spain and Japan, all of which have non-Aryan supporters.Turkeys / christmas?

Just once I want to read about a kid doing this, but while wearing a sports blazer and a tie. Crime needs to get classy again!

in his own words...


"As a result of cultural dominance and interracial mixing there is barely any full blooded Natives left. Where I live less than 1% of all the people on the Reservation can speak their own language, and among the youth wanting to be black has run ramped (sic)...Under a National Socialist government, things for us would improve vastly… and that is why I am pro-Nazi."

he was a National Socialist, but it was the purity of his own people that concerned him, not that of the Germans. Get it?

in my experience i have found Goths to be nice, quiet, sullen people who mostly keep themselves to themselves. if people are seriously blaming 'goth culture' for this (or any such) crime then that's a bit sad... without reading through this thread can i assume it is christian extremists who are pointing the proverbial finger?



i myself could be described as a Goth, but i'd rather be described as a metalhead/gentle hippie :D

Those aren't real Goths. Real Goths don't listen to Marilyn Manson or pillage Europe or shoot kids at school. Real Goths are mostly about writing poems on black construction paper.


And dont forget-taking rubbings off of cool tombstones.

Same ol' 'round again...

First, it's great to see so many other people using the word 'fucktard.' I was afraid I was the only one.

Second, the idea is to be different from you, it doesn't matter that they are the same as someone else, that someone else is more in-line with them then you are. In terms of size, regular culture>>goth culture. In reference to the norm they are different. If you point out that they are the same as the smaller group it doesn't make you clever, it doesn't make you insightful, it makes you an idiot. For further clarification, the driveway is the path you drive from the road to your garage and whether or not you park on it is irrelevant, and the parkway is the way through the park. The patently obvious is just that. You may as well post that the sky is blue, it provides about as much insight.

Third, I cannot count how many times I have read people on here suggesting that they would solve any problem of people getting on thier case or giving them a hard time by shooting them. People have talked proudly of carrying thier consealed weapons, or the damage their Gobbledygook 9387573 would do to someone who looked at them the wrong way. This kid called you on your shit, he did what you've been saying you'd do. Congratulations, this kid should be a hero to you as he is the forefront of the world you seem to want. Hey, if you're not willing to kill for it, your not worth anything, right? Sometimes you just got to be violent to solve a problem, eh? Well, there he is-living the ideal. Where's his medal and plaque? This is what you wanted.

Oh, not the weird kids...only you-cause you would only kill the really bad people...the people that would really deserve it...I see....


The 'you' in the post only refers to the 'yous' that fit the contextual descriptions and not 'anyone who reads this,' so if you respond with a 'hey man, I'm totally not like that' then you weren't the 'you' I was talking about...but if you made that mistake you might want to review the driveway/parkway bit....

well... wouldn't those skinheads be just the evangelists of punk (?), not evangelical fundamentalists? I still think that was a great generalisation. :)

Edit... I kinda assume you are talking about the straight-edgers..? They are good fun to talk to. Nice people.

dunno what a straight edger is. i'm talking about nice excitable skinheads who are cuddly and passionate and keen on stuff, and not at all bigoted

Same ol' 'round again...

First, it's great to see so many other people using the word 'fucktard.' I was afraid I was the only one.

Second, the idea is to be different from you, it doesn't matter that they are the same as someone else, that someone else is more in-line with them then you are. In terms of size, regular culture>>goth culture. In reference to the norm they are different. If you point out that they are the same as the smaller group it doesn't make you clever, it doesn't make you insightful, it makes you an idiot. For further clarification, the driveway is the path you drive from the road to your garage and whether or not you park on it is irrelevant, and the parkway is the way through the park. The patently obvious is just that. You may as well post that the sky is blue, it provides about as much insight.

Third, I cannot count how many times I have read people on here suggesting that they would solve any problem of people getting on thier case or giving them a hard time by shooting them. People have talked proudly of carrying thier consealed weapons, or the damage their Gobbledygook 9387573 would do to someone who looked at them the wrong way. This kid called you on your shit, he did what you've been saying you'd do. Congratulations, this kid should be a hero to you as he is the forefront of the world you seem to want. Hey, if you're not willing to kill for it, your not worth anything, right? Sometimes you just got to be violent to solve a problem, eh? Well, there he is-living the ideal. Where's his medal and plaque? This is what you wanted.

Oh, not the weird kids...only you-cause you would only kill the really bad people...the people that would really deserve it...I see....

*claps*

dunno what a straight edger is. i'm talking about nice excitable skinheads who are cuddly and passionate and keen on stuff, and not at all bigotedAh. Well most of skins must be like that too. But I find the edgers the best... they are bloody articulate... most of them.

Edit: I don't want you to lead to a specific site... just do a search on straight + edge (+punk, if you like to).

Same ol' 'round again...

First, it's great to see so many other people using the word 'fucktard.' I was afraid I was the only one.

Second, the idea is to be different from you, it doesn't matter that they are the same as someone else, that someone else is more in-line with them then you are. In terms of size, regular culture>>goth culture. In reference to the norm they are different. If you point out that they are the same as the smaller group it doesn't make you clever, it doesn't make you insightful, it makes you an idiot. For further clarification, the driveway is the path you drive from the road to your garage and whether or not you park on it is irrelevant, and the parkway is the way through the park. The patently obvious is just that. You may as well post that the sky is blue, it provides about as much insight.

Third, I cannot count how many times I have read people on here suggesting that they would solve any problem of people getting on thier case or giving them a hard time by shooting them. People have talked proudly of carrying thier consealed weapons, or the damage their Gobbledygook 9387573 would do to someone who looked at them the wrong way. This kid called you on your shit, he did what you've been saying you'd do. Congratulations, this kid should be a hero to you as he is the forefront of the world you seem to want. Hey, if you're not willing to kill for it, your not worth anything, right? Sometimes you just got to be violent to solve a problem, eh? Well, there he is-living the ideal. Where's his medal and plaque? This is what you wanted.

Oh, not the weird kids...only you-cause you would only kill the really bad people...the people that would really deserve it...I see....


The 'you' in the post only refers to the 'yous' that fit the contextual descriptions and not 'anyone who reads this,' so if you respond with a 'hey man, I'm totally not like that' then you weren't the 'you' I was talking about...but if you made that mistake you might want to review the driveway/parkway bit....

*has read it three times but still doesn't know what it means*

Ah. Well most of skins must be like that too. But I find the edgers the best... they are bloody articulate... most of them.
what is one? are they the dont drink dont smoke vegan virgins?

OBVIOUSLY this whole problem could be eliminated if the american public woke up and passed one simple law

no child shall be allowed to wear black to school!

if everyone were required to wear YELLOW then these horrible shootings would stop. no one can shoot another person while wearing yellow. it just cant be done

and at the same time we should ban that awful morbid music and require all teens to listen to happy music. perhaps that wonderful stuff the play on the disney channel...

everyone sing with me!...

I LOVE YOU
YOU LOVE ME....

[/sarcasm]

Same ol' same ol.
Blame Gothic culture! Blame Marilyn Manson! Blame angry music and violent video-games/movies/TV-shows.

Truth is, it's a simple tinder-box-ready-to-burn combo of
shitty/absent parents + pathetic gun control laws + asshole bullies.

Sad but true.

what is one? are they the dont drink dont smoke vegan virgins?

"Straight edge" just means "not 21 yet."

Just once I want to read about a kid doing this, but while wearing a sports blazer and a tie. Crime needs to get classy again!


He would have to have three names when they talk about him-he would be id'd by his first middle and last name.

what is one? are they the dont drink dont smoke vegan virgins? Pretty much. I meet them on festivals all the time. Fun bunch. but not so sure about them being virgins though... at least here they don't seem to be... :) just do a search :D

Originally Posted by Independent Homesteads
what is one? are they the dont drink dont smoke vegan virgins?

I made a straight-edge agreement with my biological mother, and I'm not a punk. A lot of people are doing it as a way to keep their kids from screwing up their lives before they turn 21. They adapt the straight-edge idea to whatever they think kids shouldn't do until they're old enough to fully handle the consequences of their actions. For instance, part of my straight edge contract included no getting arrested (except in cases of civil disobedience), and I have to finish high school and attend college.

Hillarious sensationalism!

Where's the media, everytime a teenage Rap Douchebag kills someone?

If they applied this same standard, and weren't liberal pansies afraid of being fingered as racists, we'd never hear of anything else on the news.

If we're gonna blame music, Rap has "killed" more people than all other genres combined. I don't have stats... but C'MON!!!

Why don't they blame the people he killed? I mean, there had to be some internal (not related to video games, music, TV, fashion, etc.) reason, no matter how fucked-up, WHY he killed them, right? :rolleyes:

Maybe they should find out how badly this kid got picked on... I bet he just snapped one day and gave people exactly what they deserved. :mad:

Oh yeah...the poor innocent shooter got picked on. It's the bad victim's fault! Blame them! :rolleyes:

Hillarious sensationalism!

Where's the media, everytime a teenage Rap Douchebag kills someone?

If they applied this same standard, and weren't liberal pansies afraid of being fingered as racists, we'd never hear of anything else on the news.

If we're gonna blame music, Rap has "killed" more people than all other genres combined. I don't have stats... but C'MON!!!

Ya, but they usually kill each other. People tend not to raise too many eyebrows when minorities kill eachother, whether liberal or conservative.

If we're gonna blame music,

Let's not and say we didn't. Rap doesn't kill anyone any more than playing a classical concerto does. I hate when people can look at a crime and say "aha! The killer here was not young Sammy. It was actually Rap Music." Like the coroner is going to put that on the cause of death line.

Let's not and say we didn't. Rap doesn't kill anyone any more than playing a classical concerto does. I hate when people can look at a crime and say "aha! The killer here was not young Sammy. It was actually Rap Music." Like the coroner is going to put that on the cause of death line.
I agree. Music, video games, and movies are a rediculous scapegoat.

Like violence was way down before the advent of television, film, and video games. :rolleyes:

OBVIOUSLY this whole problem could be eliminated if the american public woke up and passed one simple law

no child shall be allowed to wear black to school!

if everyone were required to wear YELLOW then these horrible shootings would stop. no one can shoot another person while wearing yellow. it just cant be done

and at the same time we should ban that awful morbid music and require all teens to listen to happy music. perhaps that wonderful stuff the play on the disney channel...

everyone sing with me!...

I LOVE YOU
YOU LOVE ME....

[/sarcasm]


The color yellow makes people depressed and makes babies cry.. for real.. LOL

Why don't they blame the people he killed? I mean, there had to be some internal (not related to video games, music, TV, fashion, etc.) reason, no matter how fucked-up, WHY he killed them, right? :rolleyes:

Maybe they should find out how badly this kid got picked on... I bet he just snapped one day and gave people exactly what they deserved. :mad:

I live just miles from where this happened. I have friends up there and visit them often. No one got what they deserved. Not the poor kid who did this, nor the victims. Show a little compassion for the victims, all of them, including the shooter.

"They" are going to blame:
a) school bullies
b) poverty
c) his fucked up homelife
d) comic books
e) video games
f) role playing games
g) goths (or anyone else that scares them)
h) guns
i) the "culture of violence"

in short, anything except the fucktard himself.

He was 17 years old. Where does that kind of anger come from? Do you think he was born with it? Something was very wrong with his life. Maybe he suffered from abuse and neglect when he was younger. I think I can assure is that he did not just wake up one day and say I think I will go kill 9 people to amuse myself. He was hurting inside so bad that he couldn't feel anymore. So much anger came out in the violence against other people.

you should read some comments your fellow people have made. like i stated before, GOTHS ARE NEITHER VIOLENT OR NON VIOLENT. THE SUBCULTURE IS ABOUT A STYLE OF DRESS,PERSONAL IDEALS< CERTAIN MUSIC< AND A FASCINATION WITH DEATH> if i start posting profile exceprts from vampire freaks dot com, you are going to look stupid.

Different types for different goths.

I like to wear leather, latex and velvet.

I like to wear a bit of makeup when I go to a club.

I listen to the Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, The Mission, The Horatii, Suspiria, Midnight Configuration - most of which are UK Nottingham-scene Goth, and have little to do with the Mansonesque/NIN industrial gothica... which I ALSO like.

I have never had a fascination with death, though - and don't think that THAT is what Goth is about. Certainly, most of MY experience with Goth has been that Goths aren't AFRAID to deal with concepts like death, pain, love... in terms of raw emotion. Which, I think, is often mistaken for being 'obsessed' with death.

I hardly think that a site calling itself vampirefreaks.com can truly claim to be representative of goth culture.

you have shown yourself to be ignorant of white nationalist ideals. it has nothiong to do with "ayrans" and EVERYTHING to do with european blood. that blond hair blue eyed gimmick, is just that, a gimmick. the true WN movement has gone far beyond the days of hitler.

Curious... I think you should watch the film "The Believer"... which, while fictional, draws upon actual historical inspiration.

There have been Jewish Nazi's... I don't see why there couldn't be Native American Nazi's also.

(In fact, I know someone who protests the superiority of the 'white' race, but is, himself, one-eighth Cherokee).

I don't see how anyone can blame any single factor here. Some people blame genes, some people blame parenting. I think it is quite obvious that all of these factors play a role. Both his environment, home life and his genes all played a role (although I don't think being gothic had anything to do with it). Another thing, why does everyone think the Huns, the Vikings and the goths were so barbaric when it is obvious that "civilized" culture is much more primal and destructive. Sure they don't go "pillaging" they just throw in some genocide and slavery instead. Since they are more organized they can do much more damage anyway.

I listen to the Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, The Mission, The Horatii, Suspiria, Midnight Configuration - most of which are UK Nottingham-scene Goth, and have little to do with the Mansonesque/NIN industrial gothica... which I ALSO like.


Sisters? Mission UK?

I've got Floodland in my CD player *right now*!!

BTW- I find it ironic that I've seen more Sisters videos on VH1 Classic in the last month than *ever* on MTV. (Back when MTV played videos).

Sisters? Mission UK?

I've got Floodland in my CD player *right now*!!

BTW- I find it ironic that I've seen more Sisters videos on VH1 Classic in the last month than *ever* on MTV. (Back when MTV played videos).
MTV played videos?

MTV played videos?

Oh, please please please tell me you're not *that* young.

Blame Canada
South Park Parents

Times have changed,
Our kids are getting worse
They won't obey their parents,
They just want to fart and curse. Should we blame the government, or blame society, or should we blame the images on tv No!
Blame Canada! Blame Canada

With all their beady little eyes,
their flapping heads so full of lies
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
We need to form a full assault, it's Canada's fault! Don't blame me, for my son Stan, He saw the darn cartoon, and now he's off to
join the klan!> And my boy eric once, had my picture on his shelf, but now when I see him, he tells me to fuck myself>

Well, Blame Canada!

It seems that everything's gone wrong since
Canada came along
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada! They're not even a real country anyway. My son could of been a doctor or a lawyer, it's a true, Instead he burned up like a piggie on a barbecue> Should we blame the matches? Should we blame the fire, or the doctor who allowed him to expire. Heck no!
Blame Canada!
Blame Canada!
With all their hockey hubaloo and that bitch Anne Murray too. Blame Canada!
Shame on Canada!

The smut we must stop
The trash we must smash
Laughter and fun
must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming us!

---

More seriously, I think the blame falls on:

-Himself.
-The people who treated him like shit.
-The people who didn't alert anyone about him saying he was going to do it.
-The adults in his life.

He lived a pretty unpleasant life, that goes without saying from what is being reported. Sure doesn't give him the excuse to kill others, though. I also blame others, though, for not listening to him, otherwise this would have never happened.

Sisters? Mission UK?

I've got Floodland in my CD player *right now*!!

BTW- I find it ironic that I've seen more Sisters videos on VH1 Classic in the last month than *ever* on MTV. (Back when MTV played videos).

Ah... back in the mother-country, we just call them The Mission... it's only on these foreign shores that we have to add the (UK) bit.... :)

I do so love the Sisters... and the "Sisterhood" 'side project' (definitely worth looking up, if you don't already have it, and of which you have heard a track, if you have the version of Floodland with "Colours" on it)

Personally, I believe that "Some Girls Wander..." was their greatest moment... :)

Have they really now decided that the Sisters are VH1 material? They must be playing the "Vision Thing" material...

If you are a serious 'Sisters' fan - and if you haven't encountered them already - there is a very 'sisters-like' band out there called "The Merry Thoughts", with (unfortunately only) two albums under their belt ("Psychocult" and "Millenium Done I: Empire Songs").

Maybe they should find out how badly this kid got picked on... I bet he just snapped one day and gave people exactly what they deserved.
Choosing a subculture is a personal choice, but it's a superficial representation of who the person really is. We could insert 'teeny-bopper' or 'raver' into the sentence, and get the same deluded vitreole, albeit differently flavoured.

The media has revealed all these terrible things about this kid, like his mother's severe health problems, and his father's suicide. I'm not doubting that the kid was a real jerk to be around - poor emotional support and trauma as a child can make you wary and diminish your ability to socialise appropriately. Yet he was filled with enough rage and hurt to kill the students and teachers at his school. He was motivated enough to kill himself. Makes you wonder who was looking out for him other than his grandparents, and how they could miss the early warning signs. :(

I'd like to apologize in advance to any goths who will be offended by this:

http://www.filthylies.net/d/20050316.html

I love that comic :)

The recent Minnesota shooting had nothing to do with the fact that the kid was a Goth. I am sorta Gothic, or at least very morbid (I made a coffin purse and a windchime out of bones, and enjoy Edward Gorey, EA Poe, Lovecraft, and Tim Burton) and being Gothic has nothing to do with killing people. It is a peaceful movement, not a violent one.

Also, the article I read suggested he listened to "violent, gothic music, like that of Marilyn Manson..." and Marilyn Manson is NOT goth. He's... Wierd, but not goth.
The kid I saw in the news report looked nothing like a goth to me.

i dont understand why the media cant just admit that it was one very fucked up, disillusioned child who is at fault for the death of ten people. there's always going to be poverty, sickness, and neglect but not everybody loses their minds over it. not everyone who is exposed to that kind of environment (whether it was the neglect, music, video games, whatever) goes on mad killing sprees.

it all comes down to the individual.

just blame the rotten kid because at that age, you're supposed to know that you're not supposed to go to school and shoot your classmates.

The recent Minnesota shooting had nothing to do with the fact that the kid was a Goth. I am sorta Gothic, or at least very morbid (I made a coffin purse and a windchime out of bones, and enjoy Edward Gorey, EA Poe, Lovecraft, and Tim Burton) and being Gothic has nothing to do with killing people. It is a peaceful movement, not a violent one.

Also, the article I read suggested he listened to "violent, gothic music, like that of Marilyn Manson..." and Marilyn Manson is NOT goth. He's... Wierd, but not goth.
The word "goth" is a relative term. People try to define it, but it has no definition.

Goths will give a cool definition. Something like, "Goths are people who REJECT conformist society!"

Or sometimes, they'll say something even more cliche, like, "Goth is a way of life."

Haha.

But no, really. There are people that don't give a shit about your non-conformist philosophy, don't know who the Cure is, but instead, they just listen to Marilyn Manson and Slipknot. Others call them goths. And they sometimes call themselves that. Other goths saying, "THEY'RE NOT TRUE GOTHS!" is the equivalent of a Baptist telling a Mormon they're not true Christians. It's nonsense. Whoever claims to be a goth or has the appearance of what many people believe is a goth, is a goth. That might mean wearing a Slipknot shirt, having black lipstick, and an eyebrow piercing, but generally, nobody gives a shit about your "subculture" enough to be educated about it. People are ignorant.

On the other hand, though, what politicians say about goths or music is a total logical fallacy. Yes, it's possible (in my opinion, highly likely) that violent music has a negative impact on society. But that's just one of many factors and its impact needs to be proven, scientifically, not just assumed.

Ah... back in the mother-country, we just call them The Mission... it's only on these foreign shores that we have to add the (UK) bit.... :)

Yeah. They're mostly unknown here in the US.

I do so love the Sisters... and the "Sisterhood" 'side project' (definitely worth looking up, if you don't already have it, and of which you have heard a track, if you have the version of Floodland with "Colours" on it)

Yep.

Personally, I believe that "Some Girls Wander..." was their greatest moment... :)

Probably. I'm still a bit angry with them. They were supposed to play a show at 9:30 Club in DC back in... summer 97'. They cancelled TWO HOURS before showtime.

Have they really now decided that the Sisters are VH1 material? They must be playing the "Vision Thing" material...

In the past month or so, I've seen vids for More, Doctor Jeep and Under the Gun. And it's not like I watch VH1 Classic 24/7.
(Note: I also have seen the "Big Picture" vid by Y Kant Tori Read a few times. *sigh* I like Tori Amos as a Lita Ford wannabe!! ;)

If you are a serious 'Sisters' fan - and if you haven't encountered them already - there is a very 'sisters-like' band out there called "The Merry Thoughts", with (unfortunately only) two albums under their belt ("Psychocult" and "Millenium Done I: Empire Songs").

Cool, thanks! My Sisters listening waxes and wanes, usually depended on how much Queensryche is in my listening diet.

why is it impossible for him to be a Nazi skinhead? I mean, it may be that he may not be the ideal 'master race', but very few really are, I mean, the Aryans, Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes, and fair skin, then you have adolf hitler, shorter, dark hair, not fair skin, and jewish bloodlinks.

Just because someone is counter to the popular ideas of something doesn't mean that its impossible to be that. Just like christians that judge, buddihist warriors that kill, samurai that break their oaths, vegans that eat meat in secret, etc...

not saying the guy was nazi or anything, just saying that just because the streotype doesn't match, doesn't mean that it isn't true.
its impossible for him to be a Nazi, or a nationalist socialist because he hated HIS OWN race. (native american) judging by his posts on the web. (i would link to them,, but they have been removed) he didnt like his own culture, and wanted to identify with anything but. in fact, maybe thats why he killed himself. self hatred.if he wanted to separate his people from the rest of the world, then i would say he was a nazi, or NS type. but that was not the case.

My local news is hilarious. They are taking almost every angle they can think of, the Nazi angle, the goth angle, the Native American angle, and anything else they can think of.

And according to most of the info I have seen, he did frequent neo-Nazi websites and forums.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=622767
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1680173,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=603575

My local news is hilarious. They are taking almost every angle they can think of, the Nazi angle, the goth angle, the Native American angle, and anything else they can think of.


Gee, no one is saying he was just a bad person who made the bad choice of killing people.

Gee, no one is saying he was just a bad person who made the bad choice of killing people.
see my original post. :)

firstly-manson's music doesnt sound gothic, nine inch nails is pretty dark but not manson, his music is total shit.

secondly-im tired of people steriotyping me cause im a goth, i dont want to kill everyone i see and although i have a fascination with death doesnt mean i worship it.

Seems like you are stereotyping yourself if you call yourself a "goth" to begin with ;)

Gee, no one is saying he was just a bad person who made the bad choice of killing people.

I'm saying it was the fault of a Goth.

see my original post. :)
I meant on TV...

I was downloading Eva music and one of the songs is called Komm Süsser Tod (Come Sweet Death). Is that gothic music?

I was downloading Eva music and one of the songs is called Komm Süsser Tod (Come Sweet Death). Is that gothic music?

If you listen to that, you're going to kill some people for sure.

Gee, no one is saying he was just a bad person who made the bad choice of killing people.
Exactly!
That's my local news for you.

I was downloading Eva music and one of the songs is called Komm Süsser Tod (Come Sweet Death). Is that gothic music?
It's rather hard to tell from just the title.
That being a massive understatement.

It's rather hard to tell from just the title.
That being a massive understatement.

It sounded like classical music, though, so what does that mean.

Probably. I'm still a bit angry with them. They were supposed to play a show at 9:30 Club in DC back in... summer 97'. They cancelled TWO HOURS before showtime.

In the past month or so, I've seen vids for More, Doctor Jeep and Under the Gun. And it's not like I watch VH1 Classic 24/7.
(Note: I also have seen the "Big Picture" vid by Y Kant Tori Read a few times. *sigh* I like Tori Amos as a Lita Ford wannabe!! ;)

Cool, thanks! My Sisters listening waxes and wanes, usually depended on how much Queensryche is in my listening diet.

Sisters were playing gigs in England same year - they cancelled there, too.

We were lucky to be able to get our money back... and then Marylin did the same thing... but at least HE had an excuse (I believe Marylin was actually sick for his Nottingham gig).

In the end - we spent our "Sisters" money on a "Ministry" gig... which was magnificent, but not quite what we had initially hoped for.

I have a somewhat-less-than-official "Y Kant Tori Read" album, since the original album never got a UK release. Curious as to why it wasn't more popular - yes, half the tracks were uber-cheesy, but the other half were obvious flashes of Tori inspiration... and 50-50 is better odds than you get on most albums.... Gotta love Tori, no matter which 'hat' she's wearing.

Aaah, Queensryche... still yet to come close to the glory of "Silent Lucidity", in my opinion...

its impossible for him to be a Nazi, or a nationalist socialist because he hated HIS OWN race. (native american) judging by his posts on the web. (i would link to them,, but they have been removed) he didnt like his own culture, and wanted to identify with anything but. in fact, maybe thats why he killed himself. self hatred.if he wanted to separate his people from the rest of the world, then i would say he was a nazi, or NS type. but that was not the case.

Actually - what I have read of his 'Nazi' posts, he was talking about the lack of purity WITHIN the Native population... even going so far as to label himself as a 'NativeNazi'.

Apparently, he had already attempted to pass this message WITHIN his native community, and they were less than accepting of his version of purity of Native blood.

You say, "if he wanted to separate his people from the rest of the world"... and it does, indeed, seem that that was part of his platform.

But... No matter how hard you want to be a Nazi you couldn't unless you were a hitlar or an aryian....
SURELY.

Oh I re-read that statement... My mistake.

People make bad choices (like gunning down other people). Why must it be more complicated than that. HE was derranged, delusional, whatever you want to call him. HE killed people. Why must we point the finger at other cultures/sub-cultures/religions/ethnicities? One person did it, why link other to HIS stupid actions?

The word "goth" is a relative term. People try to define it, but it has no definition.

Goths will give a cool definition. Something like, "Goths are people who REJECT conformist society!"

Or sometimes, they'll say something even more cliche, like, "Goth is a way of life."

Haha.

But no, really. There are people that don't give a shit about your non-conformist philosophy, don't know who the Cure is, but instead, they just listen to Marilyn Manson and Slipknot. Others call them goths. And they sometimes call themselves that. Other goths saying, "THEY'RE NOT TRUE GOTHS!" is the equivalent of a Baptist telling a Mormon they're not true Christians. It's nonsense. Whoever claims to be a goth or has the appearance of what many people believe is a goth, is a goth. That might mean wearing a Slipknot shirt, having black lipstick, and an eyebrow piercing, but generally, nobody gives a shit about your "subculture" enough to be educated about it. People are ignorant.

On the other hand, though, what politicians say about goths or music is a total logical fallacy. Yes, it's possible (in my opinion, highly likely) that violent music has a negative impact on society. But that's just one of many factors and its impact needs to be proven, scientifically, not just assumed.

Let's not ignore the fact that MORE crimes have been commited in the name of ONE book, and it's message of 'love', than every other type of media put together.

When will people realise the inequity in attacking video games and rock music... but reading children bedtime stories out of a book filled with genocide, child sacrifice, incest, paedophilia and destruction?

Hah, you know that actually makes a lot of sense.
But ultimately some people wouldn't have decided they wanted to do the things they'd have done without forign influences.

Although nobody seems to have claimed that the problem was perhaps the fact the person got a weapon in the first place? Gun laws in the USA are very irrisponsible... Plus they dont exacally in some places have a very pacifist culture...
*ahem* Klu Klux Klan? I hear the likes of them are very amuch active... So isn't it obvious to assume such shootings are going to continue to take place, and to get worse and worse over time? With the current way of things in some regions of the USA?

Hah, you know that actually makes a lot of sense.
But ultimately some people wouldn't have decided they wanted to do the things they'd have done without forign influences.

Although nobody seems to have claimed that the problem was perhaps the fact the person got a weapon in the first place? Gun laws in the USA are very irrisponsible... Plus they dont exacally in some places have a very pacifist culture...
*ahem* Klu Klux Klan? I hear the likes of them are very amuch active... So isn't it obvious to assume such shootings are going to continue to take place, and to get worse and worse over time? With the current way of things in some regions of the USA?

Um... you're woefully misinformed.

A) Please define how gun laws in the US are irresponsible.
A2) Explain how that jives with the detail that almost no legally owned firearms are used in crimes.
B) Klan membership is *way* down from the "glory days". Thank God.

The reason the gun laws are irrisponsible is because so many civies can get them.
I mean, isnt one one the basic constitutions that a person can carry a gun, but not use it?

The reason the gun laws are irrisponsible is because so many civies can get them.
I mean, isnt one one the basic constitutions that a person can carry a gun, but not use it?

He got the weapon from his grandfather, who was issued it as a police officer. Gun laws have nothing to do with this case.

Just because someone is a "minority" doesn't mean that they are not racist or a neo-nazi sympathizer or whatever. To say that only bald white people are racist or nazis is ignorant.

To discount emotional trauma from home or bullies or the media as causative factors and instead say that he was, for no reason, mentally disturbed, is ignorant and irresponsible.

The reason the gun laws are irrisponsible is because so many civies can get them.
I mean, isnt one one the basic constitutions that a person can carry a gun, but not use it?

Are you kidding me?

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

...in order for me to get my firearms license, I had to take a safety course, pass a written exam, get fingerprinted, and pay about $200. Then they ran a background check before I bought it.