NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, looks like the Senate approved their plans to allow drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. Whoopti freakin' do.

Are we THAT stupid as to believe this hype? Will this help America's oil woes?

NO! That's not what this is about at all. Consider this: The vast majority(I heard 80% once, but my attempts to google an exact figure have been fruitless so far) of Alaskan Heavy Crude oil is not even USED by the United States! The vast majority of Alaskan oil is exported to Japan and China! :eek:

Why? Because refineries in the U.S. can't process alaskan crude and the oil companies(for their own reasons) refuse to switch. So all increased drilling will mean is increased oil sales to Japan! It will have NO IMPACT on U.S. Oil reserves! :headbang:

We don't have many working oil refineries because environmentalists say they are bad and the companies listen to them. I say build nuclear reactors so we don't need to burn oil in power plants. Then we can switch to hydrogen cars when they get efficient enough. There, now only plastics and several other products I can't think of right now require oil.

Well, looks like the Senate approved their plans to allow drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. Whoopti freakin' do.

Are we THAT stupid as to believe this hype? Will this help America's oil woes?

NO! That's not what this is about at all. Consider this: The vast majority(I heard 80% once, but my attempts to google an exact figure have been fruitless so far) of Alaskan Heavy Crude oil is not even USED by the United States! The vast majority of Alaskan oil is exported to Japan and China! :eek:

Why? Because refineries in the U.S. can't process alaskan crude and the oil companies(for their own reasons) refuse to switch. So all increased drilling will mean is increased oil sales to Japan! It will have NO IMPACT on U.S. Oil reserves! :headbang:

Not surprised. Lumber is something that goes to asia as well. They always paint the image that no housing will be build unless we open up logging.....

We don't have many working oil refineries because environmentalists say they are bad and the companies listen to them. I say build nuclear reactors so we don't need to burn oil in power plants. Then we can switch to hydrogen cars when they get efficient enough. There, now only plastics and several other products I can't think of right now require oil.

Well, what about when there's NO OIL LEFT? Are you going to wait until it is GONE to try and replace it?

Idiots....

I'm still googling to find as much information as possible in case a real debate arises. But this isn't really something I'm good at. So any professional googlers out there could help me out greatly if you could find the figures for the amount of oil produced in alaska. I already found how much is exported.

Well, what about when there's NO OIL LEFT? Are you going to wait until it is GONE to try and replace it?

Idiots....

I was suggesting methods that are alternatives to using oil... what are babbling about?

Well, looks like the Senate approved their plans to allow drilling in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge. Whoopti freakin' do.

Are we THAT stupid as to believe this hype? Will this help America's oil woes?

NO! That's not what this is about at all. Consider this: The vast majority(I heard 80% once, but my attempts to google an exact figure have been fruitless so far) of Alaskan Heavy Crude oil is not even USED by the United States! The vast majority of Alaskan oil is exported to Japan and China! :eek:

Why? Because refineries in the U.S. can't process alaskan crude and the oil companies(for their own reasons) refuse to switch. So all increased drilling will mean is increased oil sales to Japan! It will have NO IMPACT on U.S. Oil reserves! :headbang:

You are correct and you are mistaken

correct because US refineries are AT capacity and have been so for some time

No new refinery capacity is being build, cant, blocked by eco warriors.

wrong because it is gonna take 8-15 years to develop ANWR, in that time refinerary capacity could be increased.

If the Us rationalized its refinery capacity(meaning on deciding maybe 5-10 grades of gasoline) this would also help

Whether we can refine it or not matters less than if we can add or subtract from the global demend. Of course refinery capicty still helps.

You are correct and you are mistaken

correct because US refineries are AT capacity and have been so for some time

No new refinery capacity is being build, cant, blocked by eco warriors.

wrong because it is gonna take 8-15 years to develop ANWR, in that time refinerary capacity could be increased.

If the Us rationalized its refinery capacity(meaning on deciding maybe 5-10 grades of gasoline) this would also help

Whether we can refine it or not matters less than if we can add or subtract from the global demend. Of course refinery capicty still helps.
I live close to the old Motiva refinery in Delaware. I don't want another one near by. One polluting, worker killing (tanks of sulfuric acid have collapsed, killing a worker and injuring hundreds), cancer causing wreck is enough for me.

Solar would be a great alternative if we had batteries with a sufficient amount of storage space.

I live close to the old Motiva refinery in Delaware. I don't want another one near by. One polluting, worker killing (tanks of sulfuric acid have collapsed, killing a worker and injuring hundreds), cancer causing wreck is enough for me.

cant have it both ways.

life is kinda like that barring a new krytonite based fuel source.

Ah, our dear Commander in Cheif making money for his friends again. They say an honest politician is one that stays bought. I guess he qualifies.

Ah, our dear Commander in Cheif making money for his friends again. They say an honest politician is one that stays bought. I guess he qualifies.
oxymoron.

cant have it both ways.

life is kinda like that barring a new krytonite based fuel source.
I'll take the higher gas bills then the shorter lifespan. Unless you're volunteering to have it in your back yard.

I'm still googling to find as much information as possible in case a real debate arises. But this isn't really something I'm good at. So any professional googlers out there could help me out greatly if you could find the figures for the amount of oil produced in alaska. I already found how much is exported.

I believe opening ANWAR to drilling is a travesty. Simply unjustifiable horror. But I'm not sure I want to debate it. Too depressing.

Here are Alaskan oil production figures (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/state/ak.html) from the Energy Information Administration (a division of the DOE):
Crude Oil Production: 974 thousand barrels per day (2003), ranked 2nd (3th including Federal Offshore). Accounts for 17 percent of U.S. crude oil production



Here are some resources, however:
http://www.govspot.com/issues/anwr.htm
EIA - Analysis of Oil and Gas Production in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ogp/index.html)
Study: ANWR oil would have little impact (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4542853/)
Defenders of Wildlife (http://www.defenders.org/wildlife/arctic/overview.html) National Resource Defense Council (http://www.nrdc.org/land/wilderness/arctic.asp)
Sierra Club (http://www.sierraclub.org/wildlands/arctic/)
Save the ANWR (http://www.savearcticrefuge.org/)

Good hunting.

I totally agree that drilling in Alaska is a complete and utter mistake. Wouldn't it be more intellegent to spend money on researching newer, cleaner types of fuels? An analogy of the current descision is getting a bad cut on an arterry or the like. Obviously, without treatmet, you will bleed to death. The logical choice would be to go to a doctor's office and get the problem fixed. But instead you decide to just slap a band aid onto it. Will you still bleed to death? You betcha. Will the band aid slow it down? A little bit.

Yeah, I never really liked caribou anyway.

Alaska was ALREADY making enough money off of oil that the residents get a check in the mail every year instead of paying state taxes.

Mmmmmm...Tasty endangered animals...mmmmmmmmm

We don't have many working oil refineries because environmentalists say they are bad and the companies listen to them.

That's not the only reason we are phasing at oil rifineries. The primary reason is because it's outdated technology, that's all. With any industrial revolution, and keep in mind, the technology revolution is part of that we find that slowly old forms of power production will be phased at as new ones - such as nuclear, in the present state of the world - will take the forefront as the cycle continues.

Then we can switch to hydrogen cars when they get efficient enough.

Hydrogen cars, unless made for a longer period of driving, will never take on with the amount of driving done in the world today and that will only increase in the future.

Here's an interesting story on natural gas beneath the ocean floor. Don't know how realistic.

http://www.rense.com/general63/froz.htm

You are correct and you are mistaken

correct because US refineries are AT capacity and have been so for some time

No new refinery capacity is being build, cant, blocked by eco warriors.

wrong because it is gonna take 8-15 years to develop ANWR, in that time refinerary capacity could be increased.

If the Us rationalized its refinery capacity(meaning on deciding maybe 5-10 grades of gasoline) this would also help

Whether we can refine it or not matters less than if we can add or subtract from the global demend. Of course refinery capicty still helps.
Same first line.
Who are these "eco warriors" you're referring to? Names, not nebulousness. Really. No refinery is being built because of the people involved in getting one built, not in the opinions of lobbyists for people who on the whole, have considerably less money to spend than the oil industry. Seriously, think about it.
Second, right about how long it'll take.
Third i agree about refinery capacity and a few other related matters.
Finally, the USGS estimate last known allots that ANWR will only contribute .9 to 1.3 % on the global market. That's it. So that should be factored in. One of the reasons so much time has passed on this is whether the estimate is accurate enough to stall drilling until necessary, since the companies argue considerably about their profit margin. AND, since the price is so HIGH right now, it seems like it can get paid off.
NPR-A is another topic here, consider.
Also consider that if there was any pressure meant to be released on the consumer then Dubya might've not refused a light reserve release 3 times already. It's about money.
Eco-warriors? Jesus, ANYONE who isn't buying the "conservative" bullsh*t these days is called a liberal! And then run roughshod!
:NOTE: Last week, even Mike Savage called Bush a liberal. Yay! He said something about the infiltration or something to that effect .... interesting for a "conservative" to say that ....

I would prefer to be called an Eco-Samurai.. thank you

I actually think it is a general fallacy to think that we are running out of oil. There is huge reserves in the US and Russia that haven't been tapped. ANWAR for example could be the largest reserve in the world. The Russian Caspain see is another area that hasn't been tapped. Now don't you think that we have all this production capacity in the US and Russia. But don't use it. Yet we are gobbling up everyone elses oil at huge rates. What could be going on here. I think one of two things. Either The US and Russians are smart. Use everyone else's then have your's when the rest of the world is screwed. Another thing is they are intentionally driving up prices by controlling the areas that they know they can control. Maybe a bit of both. For those that think there is no oil under ANWAR. Think again, they wouldn't push so hard unless there was.

Yeah, I never really liked caribou anyway.

Alaska was ALREADY making enough money off of oil that the residents get a check in the mail every year instead of paying state taxes.
Not very accurate about the $ Alaska makes. Federally, we take in TWICE what we put out. It's easy to find. The reason being is our Senator Ted "Hulk" Stevens - the one who publicly exclaimed that he was "clinically depressed" about not passing ANWR for so long ... and then reneged, since he became aware from his crew that to be clinically depressed you would have to be clinically diagnosed, which he admitted has never happened. So he admitted instead that he was frustrated (publicly, all). Same wimp tactic he pulled when he said he could only function as the HEAD OF THE APPROPRIATION COMMITTEE if Lisa Murkowski (Our guvnah's daughter - nepotism anyone?) got in to secure the Republican majority ... AND THEN HE HAD TO VACATE THE SEAT ANYWAY. He WAS our pork guy.
As far as taxes go, only Anchorage doesn't pay sales tax and the rest are left with that and property taxes and bed taxes. And since that isn't enough to supplement the "revenue" of the state, the PERS & TERS are now being addressed for state employees as well as several other measures.
Further to the point on taxes, this state has this little catch called the ELF (Economic Limiting Factor) which kicks in IN FAVOR OF THE OIL COMPANIES when oil prices go beneath (i think) $30 a barrel. So, the top taxability of the oil here is to 3% currently, of which almost all oil companies here were GIVEN A BREAK BY BUSH and MANY OTHER INTERESTED REPUBLICAN MEMBERS so they never even reached that amount IN ADDITION TO the ELF. Since oil is so high now our illustrious guvnah finally grew some cajones and required a reasonable update to the ELF so that the companies ACTUALLY PAID WHAT THEY OWED IN TAXES. He may not get anywhere but it's one of the only things he's done right here (his approval rating in office - near 30%).
The reason we get any money at all is because a while back 6 people including Governor Jay Hammond NOTICED that the oil companies would RAPE THE LIVING SH*T out of the state if there wasn't a conditioner, to which the Permanent Dividend Program came into play. We were paid $919.84 last year, and a similar amount this year since the investment relationship works over about a 5 year period ... it'll be a while before we get to see the + of the current oil prices. THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT HERE IS THAT THE CITIZENS HAVE NO MINERAL RIGHTS.
As for how far that $ goes, we have almost all monopolies on the state utility spectrum ... example, for natural gas here, one month it's $129, then after petitioning the board up here, they get a price increase so the same gas now costs $207. Happened to me. They artificially peg the gas price to the oil price measure, independent of actual gas availability (here). So consider that, plus shipping ANYTHING and availability of food and goods. And the milage it takes to travel here. We're not so great off after all.

I read that this state has qualified by review as #4 in the most corrupt of the 50 states. I'm not surprised, btw.

I actually think it is a general fallacy to think that we are running out of oil. There is huge reserves in the US and Russia that haven't been tapped. ANWAR for example could be the largest reserve in the world. The Russian Caspain see is another area that hasn't been tapped. Now don't you think that we have all this production capacity in the US and Russia. But don't use it. Yet we are gobbling up everyone elses oil at huge rates. What could be going on here. I think one of two things. Either The US and Russians are smart. Use everyone else's then have your's when the rest of the world is screwed. Another thing is they are intentionally driving up prices by controlling the areas that they know they can control. Maybe a bit of both. For those that think there is no oil under ANWAR. Think again, they wouldn't push so hard unless there was.
You're right about what's going on here, it is both.
Also, there is a huge amount of the wet sand type in Canada that we're gonna negotiate at some time ... the trick is getting the easiest stuff for refinement and then selling it. They're trying to get the most available for the least work, and then moving into the harder work later .... of course. The profit margin is way too high for anything else to make real sense. Realistically that mentality really supplements the output factor of oil as a fuel anyway.

...and...
I would prefer to be called an Eco-Samurai.. thank you
Hmmm ... so then your code WOULDN'T be "BUSH"-ido, then would it?
Har har!

Look guys, this whole oil problem is going to go away in a couple of years. Say it with me....SONOLUMINESCENCE...mmmmm

My 2 cents...

Drilling in ANWR is a crappy idea. That said, it's probably not going to severely affect migration patterns, feeding centers, indiginous customs (yes, there are indiginous Americans living in ANWR), etc. But its also not going to put a SINGLE FRACKING DENT in the US oil production rate. Prices WILL NOT DROP, because most of our oil still comes from the Middle East.

And now the frightening news: even if we drill ANWR into oblivion, world oil production is expected to peak in 2042. So, about a hundred years after that, give or take (lets say 2150), oil production will be so scarce cars will become absotively-fracking-pointless. And THAT'S the real problem with oil in this country.

Thus endeth the lesson.

-DRP

NO! That's not what this is about at all. Consider this: The vast majority(I heard 80% once, but my attempts to google an exact figure have been fruitless so far) of Alaskan Heavy Crude oil is not even USED by the United States! The vast majority of Alaskan oil is exported to Japan and China! :eek:

LG, cite where you got this stuff, cause it just seems wrong to me (I spent some time at Prudhoe). It seems like two issues are being conflated: the processing of viscious oil and the fact that U.S. West Coast refineries are at capacity.

Up until 1994, it was illegal to sell Alaskan crude abroad (this was due to the fact that we were coming off the oil embargo and there was paranoia about surrendering the resource). Since this law was changed, there has been some export, but I've heard figures closer to 10% of Alaskan crude going abroad. This is primarily driven by the refineries being at capacity, leaving two options: either the tankers go the long way around to the U.S. East, or they sell to the far east. But the Eastern refineries are fed by the Middle East, so it makes more economic sense to sell to the east.

Moreover, the question isn't about how much oil we've got coming out of the pipe (TAPS hasn't run at full capacity in decades). The question is how much we've got in proved reserves. And in spite of all the exploration techniques, good as they are, you only know what's down there through drilling.

I'm very con ANWR drilling, but these aren't good objections.

I'll take the higher gas bills then the shorter lifespan. Unless you're volunteering to have it in your back yard.


I live in India now. The emissions from the non regulated vehicles is gonna kill me anyway. I have no problems with a refinery

even if we drill ANWR into oblivion, world oil production is expected to peak in 2042.

Hey! That's the same year that Social Security will crap out! All we need is a volcano or an alien invasion and we'll hit for the cycle!

I totally agree that drilling in Alaska is a complete and utter mistake. Wouldn't it be more intellegent to spend money on researching newer, cleaner types of fuels? An analogy of the current descision is getting a bad cut on an arterry or the like. Obviously, without treatmet, you will bleed to death. The logical choice would be to go to a doctor's office and get the problem fixed. But instead you decide to just slap a band aid onto it. Will you still bleed to death? You betcha. Will the band aid slow it down? A little bit.

1) why do you think money is not being spent on alternative energy sources? How do you think all the alternatives that are currently available(though not as practicle as fossil fuels) came to exist? Research has been going on for a LONG time. The reason why we are so fossil fuel dependant is because a) it is so damn cheap b) the distribution netwroks are already in place.

Where do you think universities get so much of their research dollars from?
Do you not think that a company getting a subsidy(or a tax break) to do research is not the same as govt funding research.
Dont you know that the govt gives subsidies and tax breaks for the purchase of hybrids? Companies were told they would get a break years ago when they started this research into it. Doesnt that equal funding by the govt.

2) To use your analogy, drilling in ANWR is like putting 1(of many) bandaids on the wound while at the same time seeking treatment for the larger problem. There is no point is fixing the problem if the patient is gonna bleed to death before its fixed. So you have to do both, address the immediate problem while also trying to fix the larger problem.

SNIP
solely with regards to refineries
....

The refineries are running at 95%+ capacity. They must be gushing with cash. The only reason that more arent being put up is that if the complied with all the regulations for putting up a new refinery, they wouldnt be profitable. Hence, they have no desire to put up new capacity. Regulations being environmental regulations so my remark about eco warriors.

My 2 cents...

Drilling in ANWR is a crappy idea. That said, it's probably not going to severely affect migration patterns, feeding centers, indiginous customs (yes, there are indiginous Americans living in ANWR), etc. But its also not going to put a SINGLE FRACKING DENT in the US oil production rate. Prices WILL NOT DROP, because most of our oil still comes from the Middle East.

And now the frightening news: even if we drill ANWR into oblivion, world oil production is expected to peak in 2042. So, about a hundred years after that, give or take (lets say 2150), oil production will be so scarce cars will become absotively-fracking-pointless. And THAT'S the real problem with oil in this country.

Thus endeth the lesson.

-DRP


1) The US does not get most of its oil from the middle east. We get most of our EXTERNAL oil from Canada and Mexico. I think we get around 20% of our oil from the Middle Eaast.

2) It makes no difference where we get our oil from, the only(well, mostly) thing that matters is GLOBAL supply and demand.

3) As oil becomes scarcer(more expensive), already available alternative will enjoy more widespread use.

The refineries are running at 95%+ capacity. They must be gushing with cash. The only reason that more arent being put up is that if the complied with all the regulations for putting up a new refinery, they wouldnt be profitable. Hence, they have no desire to put up new capacity. Regulations being environmental regulations so my remark about eco warriors.

Not just that, but it is also supply and demand. If US refineries produced more gasoline then US gasoline prices would drop. It is more profitable for the Oil Companies to continue producing less than is needed and sell at a higher price.

Not just that, but it is also supply and demand. If US refineries produced more gasoline then US gasoline prices would drop. It is more profitable for the Oil Companies to continue producing less than is needed and sell at a higher price.

Couple of points about this

1) Gas stations make more money when gas is cheap.

2) refineries have to switch between heating oil and gasoline.

3) no one want to be at 95% + capacity because even period maintentence and downtimes cause severe impacts to market prices.

I am not saying that refineries dont want high gas and heating oil prices, they do. But there is also a level beyond which it would make sense(profit + stability) for them to increase capacity if not for environmental regulations.

Yes, refineries make money by high prices, they also make money by refining more units.

At the end of the day, a business man has to decide whether he will make more money by selling less products at a higher cost or selling more products at a lower cost. Unfortunately(in this case) an outside influence(govt eco regulations) are tying the refiners hands.

Okay, I'm up here in Alaska, and I have a few questions for everyone on ANWR.

Who are you to tell me what I can and can't do in my backyard? Quite frankly, I'm not too woriied about if ANWR will save the US from the evil Saudi imports. Oil is a non-renewable resource, and we're going to have to find something else some day. Until then, oil is proving a heck of a lot of jobs up here in the north. Why does the rest of the country get to decide on if my fellow Alaskans can have jobs or not? While we're at it, I saw that we Alaskans make Manhattan into a bird sanctuary and force everyone off. Same sort of logic.

As for the caribou, drilling might hurt the herd in the short term, but that's only short term. The herd up near Prudoe Bay was about 6000 40 years ago. Today, it's over 36000. I don't think that it's suffered too badly.

Yes, refineries make money by high prices, they also make money by refining more units.

At the end of the day, a business man has to decide whether he will make more money by selling less products at a higher cost or selling more products at a lower cost. Unfortunately(in this case) an outside influence(govt eco regulations) are tying the refiners hands.

I'm not a mind reader, but wouldn't the need for financing in order to provide the new infrastructure refineries? In that case wouldnt' short term profit be greater by producing the same number of units at a higher price? I mean, the hypothetical business man has a captive market, everyone needs oil and there is no current infrastructure for any form of alternative. It's not like the market can correct itself if oil reaches a price deemed to be 'too high'

As for the caribou, drilling might hurt the herd in the short term, but that's only short term. The herd up near Prudoe Bay was about 6000 40 years ago. Today, it's over 36000. I don't think that it's suffered too badly.

Robbo, the growth of the Central Arctic herd has more to do with the change in game management regulations than anything else. Look into it. In the 1970s, Fish and Game restructured the regs, this is what caused the herd to grow.

This is one of my favorite examples of correlation without causation (like ice cream sales and rape rates). It's also a stat the Murkowskis and the FreeRepublic love to haul out.

It isn't that drilling has caused the caribou to breed, but that they haven't been hunted as heavily. I've got some peeps up in the Brooks, and they've got stories from before this regulation change of piling up the caribou during the migration.

Robbo, the growth of the Central Arctic herd has more to do with the change in game management regulations than anything else. Look into it. In the 1970s, Fish and Game restructured the regs, this is what caused the herd to grow.

This is one of my favorite examples of correlation without causation (like ice cream sales and rape rates). It's also a stat the Murkowskis and the FreeRepublic love to haul out.

It isn't that drilling has caused the caribou to breed, but that they haven't been hunted as heavily. I've got some peeps up in the Brooks, and they've got stories from before this regulation change of piling up the caribou during the migration.
In which case it's totally incorrect to deny the drilling of ANWR because it might hurt the caribou herds. There is no correlation; either postive or negative.

In which case it's totally incorrect to deny the drilling of ANWR because it might hurt the caribou herds. There is no correlation; either postive or negative.

No, it isn't. They're very different cases. Calving is the sensitive phase. Disruption of the calving grounds is what could have negative reprecussions. The Central Arctic herd hangs out around the Prudhoe fields, but they don't drop their calves there. Both the Central Arctic and Porcupine herds primarily drop their calves in the 1002, which is the piece of ANWR in question.

Here are the maps, based on AKF&G radio collar data.

http://arctic.fws.gov/cariboumaps.htm

It is one thing to say that the Prudhoe development does not disrupt migration or summer feeding. It is another thing to say that because development doesn't disrupt those activities, it won't disrupt calving.

This is a bunch of interesting and not so interesting stuff about the company poineering the way forward for viable fuel sources:

http://www.miningweekly.co.za/eng/features/sasol/?show=22157

Here's an interesting story on natural gas beneath the ocean floor. Don't know how realistic.

http://www.rense.com/general63/froz.htm

Marrakech, I saw a piece on Discovery where there was some speculation about methane beds being the cause of Bermuda Triangle disappearances. http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/methane_hydrates.html

It's kind of far-fetched, but interesting anyway.

Not just that, but it is also supply and demand. If US refineries produced more gasoline then US gasoline prices would drop. It is more profitable for the Oil Companies to continue producing less than is needed and sell at a higher price.


In addition to supply and demand, another simple economic principle can explain why prices will not drop, inflation. Judging by some numbers thrown around (without sources) the production will become beneficial to the US in about 40 years. Because of normal inflation, the price of gasoline will increase. When other markets or avenues of oil production become available the supply will increase, however the price will not decrease because of the demand coupled with normal, natural, healthy inflation.

The refineries are running at 95%+ capacity. They must be gushing with cash. The only reason that more arent being put up is that if the complied with all the regulations for putting up a new refinery, they wouldnt be profitable. Hence, they have no desire to put up new capacity. Regulations being environmental regulations so my remark about eco warriors.
You might have more grounding if legislation hadn't gone the way it has in the last 4 years or so. Here on the Kenai Peninsula we're paying $2.39, one of the if not the highest in the state. And we're just on the other side of the throw from Anchorage ... and when it comes to trucking the sh*t around, btw, there is a 30 some-odd cent discrepancy per gallon for the same distance traveled to Seward as it is to here, and so the refinery issue comes up quite a bit, as obviously does the issue of who is doing what with the $.
I still don't hear anyone specific about eco-warriors, only Melodiasu bothered to speak up on that ;)
Everyone else would be incidental, parenthetical or just assumed, and that would be a sidestep of my post.

Marrakech, I saw a piece on Discovery where there was some speculation about methane beds being the cause of Bermuda Triangle disappearances. http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/methane_hydrates.html

It's kind of far-fetched, but interesting anyway.


You know it would fit some of the descriptions of what happens. Could be an interesting theory... Better than Aliens or timetravel theories.