NationStates Jolt Archive

I've heard a lot of whining an boo hoo-ing about how the Far Left is "out of step with mainstream America". Not to mention the fact that these words "out of step" and "mainstream America" are straight out of the Newt Gingrich play book on framing the argument using certain key words, but nevermend.

My point is this: If you think that the Far Left is out of step, take a look at the Far Right:

Why is it that far right Republicans don't get mainstream America? WTF is up with this drive to put our knuckles back on the ground in the form of teaching the fundamentally flawed concept of creation in schools instead of the proven fact of evolution?

Whats up with far right Republicans trying to take a peek into everyone's bedroom for chrissakes? Wtf is up with trying to tell adults of sound mind that they can't choose their time to check out of this roach motel and requiring that they suffer painfully through the entire course of their illness until they die?

Why do those on the Far Right want total access to what goes on inside MY womb? And truly, WTF is up with talking about "making government so small you could drown it in a bathtub" whilst trying to expand the powers of the federal government to Orwellian proportions in the form of trying to subpoena people's medical records, cutting down on and limiting the rights of citizens to not have to endure unwarranted searches of person or property, infringing upon the rights of the free press by sending out prepackaged "news" stories that are little more than pro Administration propaganda, trying to deter protests by herding protesters into predetermined "protest zones" miles away from where the protest could actually do some good...

You know, I'm left to believe that this whole Far Right drive to cut down on the size of the federal government is really nothing more than a ploy to make it easier for big business to jump through a myriad of tax loopholes while making it harder for the ordinary citizen to protest the export of his job to a foreign country, or to speak out about the dismantling of the social structure that would have taken care of him as a senior, or to decry unnecessary war that his tax dollars are going towards prolonging......

And what is up with the Far Right thinking it's just a stellar idea to ship your job off to China, not only leaving you without an income, but also helping to turn China into one of the most competitive and dangerous rising industrial nations on the planet?? Only a moron thinks that an entire nation can function economically without an industrial base. China is laughing all the way to the bank at the nation of American burger flippers, waiters, and janitors.

WTF is up with the Far Right wanting to dismantle the Geneva Convention and ship low or no intelligence value prisoners off to countries that engage in torture? So now we're also outsourcing torture? My, the rightwing sure has it's thumb in EVERY pie, doesn't it. Ghost detainees? Thats an American value?? I don't think so...

Abu Ghraib=college hazing? Sorry Rush, try again....thats what happens when you take enough pills to kill a clydesdale.

You know, back in the day there was a moderate Rupublican named Dwight D. Eisenhower who said:

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

Today, the Far Right and their army of stooge pundits would call this man a leftist traitor. I call him an American. Here's your disconnect, Far Right. This is EXACTLY where you lose "mainstream" America, because most of us out here call this man an American, and call what he's saying here, COMMON F'ING SENSE!! Oh but not the Bush Davidians of the Far Right. To them, any rebuttal of the Lord Bush's word is grounds for death by firing squad. An American value? You tell me..

And with all the rightwing talk about state's rights, John,"let me get right up in your business" Ashcroft sure found it necessary to futz around with every state's rights issue he could get his grubby little Crisco stained fingers on...

Prayer in schools? Not if your paying for it with MY tax dollars! You want your kid to pray in school? Send him to a parochial school. Leave the schools funded with taxpayer (people like me!) dollars alone!

I could go on and on until the non existent rapture spirits me away, but I'm sure this is enough to send the resident members of the righwing echo chamber into a white froth spitting frenzy about how the fact that I merely wish to be left alone to enjoy my American freedoms without governmental interference is somehow wrong, misguided, and unAmerican.....

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.

And a child has every right to practice his religion wherver he wants. Seperation of church and state was made to protect religion and government from one another; not so one could dictate what the other does. If I wanna pray in school, then God damnit I'm gonna pray in school.

nice rant

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.

As is gravity.

As is gravity.

That's why it's the Law of gravity; and the theory of evolution.

Nice try, though.

Why is it that far right Republicans don't get mainstream America? WTF is up with this drive to put our knuckles back on the ground in the form of teaching the fundamentally flawed concept of creation in schools instead of the proven fact of evolution?


I haven't been keeping up with current events recently, so could you just clarify something? Do you mean to say that the theory of evolution is being completely replaced with creationism in some schools, or do you mean that it's being taught as a theory rather than a fact?

I miss the times when I could be thrown in jail for anal sex. Then if I weren't getting enough I'd just get caught and go to prison where there's plenty of ass action. :D

Yes you have a right to with what goes on in your womb. But that right ends about the same time that you devote it to having a child be brought up in it. Also, the power of the governnment to give out aid is only ther because of the great depression. having a country that babies its citizens will do no good.

Glenorand :sniper:

That's why it's the Law of gravity; and the theory of evolution.

Nice try, though.


In fact, gravity is ONLY a theory!
There's no proof for it beyond the fact that we haven't been flung off the Earth yet, and things have a tendency to be attracted to more massive things. It could be invisible angels that carefully hold us on the Earth and follow every particle to turn it around when it gets close to a bigger object!

Scientific theories are defined differently than the common usage. They have been tested, but are theories because they cannot be completely proven at this time. However, the evidence is overwhelming in their favor, otherwise they would not be a valid theory, but instead a discounted hypothesis.


EDIT: Blast, typo'd AGAIN!

I haven't been keeping up with current events recently, so could you just clarify something? Do you mean to say that the theory of evolution is being completely replaced with creationism in some schools, or do you mean that it's being taught as a theory rather than a fact?

Both creationism and evolution should be taught; and after that it should be up to the one learning to decide what they believe. And a Judeo-Christian creationism doesn't have to be taught- just that Someone or something created the universe.

The far (anything) is out of step with mainstream (anything) by definition.

Ah, here is another rant by someone who is still emotionally disturbed that John Kerry lost the last election. The fact is mainstream America reelected George W. Bush. Get over it or see a shrink. OK?

I've heard a lot of whining an boo hoo-ing about how the Far Left is "out of step with mainstream America". Not to mention the fact that these words "out of step" and "mainstream America" are straight out of the Newt Gingrich play book on framing the argument using certain key words, but nevermend.

My point is this: If you think that the Far Left is out of step, take a look at the Far Right:

The Far left is out of step with mainstream America; just compare their stances on what the polling data says and you will see it is true.

Why is it that far right Republicans don't get mainstream America? WTF is up with this drive to put our knuckles back on the ground in the form of teaching the fundamentally flawed concept of creation in schools instead of the proven fact of evolution?

Evolution is not fact it is a theory, hence the term Theory of Evolution.

Whats up with far right Republicans trying to take a peek into everyone's bedroom for chrissakes? Wtf is up with trying to tell adults of sound mind that they can't choose their time to check out of this roach motel and requiring that they suffer painfully through the entire course of their illness until they die?

I do not see anyone trying to peek into my wife’s and me bedroom or that of any of my gay friends. They are not saying you can not check out of this life if you want, but you can not list the help of someone else. That is considered murder by the laws we have in this country.

Why do those on the Far Right want total access to what goes on inside MY womb? And truly, WTF is up with talking about "making government so small you could drown it in a bathtub" whilst trying to expand the powers of the federal government to Orwellian proportions in the form of trying to subpoena people's medical records, cutting down on and limiting the rights of citizens to not have to endure unwarranted searches of person or property, infringing upon the rights of the free press by sending out prepackaged "news" stories that are little more than pro Administration propaganda, trying to deter protests by herding protesters into predetermined "protest zones" miles away from where the protest could actually do some good...

1) People have different views on when a life is a life and that means if you take that life at that predetermine time it is murder see above for why this is bad.

2) The Government says we have the right to protest but does not say they have to give you front row seats to do it.

3) The rest of what you say is just prepackaged liberal BS used to get the useful idiots in line to complain more.


You know, I'm left to believe that this whole Far Right drive to cut down on the size of the federal government is really nothing more than a ploy to make it easier for big business to jump through a myriad of tax loopholes while making it harder for the ordinary citizen to protest the export of his job to a foreign country, or to speak out about the dismantling of the social structure that would have taken care of him as a senior, or to decry unnecessary war that his tax dollars are going towards prolonging......

You are on a computer and the internet and you cry about corporations? You can thank the liberals for the outsourcing it was them that signed the bill into law in the first place. In 1998 the liberals were crying that Social security was in disarray and needed to be fixed. SO somewhere in 3 years which nothing was done magically fixed its self right? You do not like your tax dollars being spent a certain way then stop working.

And what is up with the Far Right thinking it's just a stellar idea to ship your job off to China, not only leaving you without an income, but also helping to turn China into one of the most competitive and dangerous rising industrial nations on the planet?? Only a moron thinks that an entire nation can function economically without an industrial base. China is laughing all the way to the bank at the nation of American burger flippers, waiters, and janitors.

Again look above to see it was indeed the far left liberal quacks that started this ball rolling.

WTF is up with the Far Right wanting to dismantle the Geneva Convention and ship low or no intelligence value prisoners off to countries that engage in torture? So now we're also outsourcing torture? My, the rightwing sure has it's thumb in EVERY pie, doesn't it. Ghost detainees? Thats an American value?? I don't think so...

Okay repeat after me, Geneva Convention only applies to those that have signed it. It does not cover those that are not signatories to it. What I thought these prisoners were being tortuted already? Now you are saying they are not but are being sent to other countries? Hmm seems you just proved yourself wrong.

Abu Ghraib=college hazing? Sorry Rush, try again....thats what happens when you take enough pills to kill a clydesdale.[?QUOTE]

Putting underwear on your head and having a nude girl walk around you and then tease you, that is exactly what happens in college frats. Of course nice try at insulting someone that will not come here to defend themselves.

[QUOTE]You know, back in the day there was a moderate Rupublican named Dwight D. Eisenhower who said:

Today, the Far Right and their army of stooge pundits would call this man a leftist traitor. I call him an American. Here's your disconnect, Far Right. This is EXACTLY where you lose "mainstream" America, because most of us out here call this man an American, and call what he's saying here, COMMON F'ING SENSE!! Oh but not the Bush Davidians of the Far Right. To them, any rebuttal of the Lord Bush's word is grounds for death by firing squad. An American value? You tell me..

Actually after this past election I would say 51% of America agrees with Bush, or more than 3.5 million voters over what the liberal POS Kerry got. Hmm guess the Far right is more in tune with Mainstream America than what you are giving credit for.

And with all the rightwing talk about state's rights, John,"let me get right up in your business" Ashcroft sure found it necessary to futz around with every state's rights issue he could get his grubby little Crisco stained fingers on...

Prayer in schools? Not if your paying for it with MY tax dollars! You want your kid to pray in school? Send him to a parochial school. Leave the schools funded with taxpayer (people like me!) dollars alone!

Are you against all prayer or just Christian Prayer? Because the Far left seems to love to bash Christian values but give other religons a pass. Kind of of hypocritical if you ask me.

I could go on and on until the non existent rapture spirits me away, but I'm sure this is enough to send the resident members of the righwing echo chamber into a white froth spitting frenzy about how the fact that I merely wish to be left alone to enjoy my American freedoms without governmental interference is somehow wrong, misguided, and unAmerican.....

Nah I think you are nothing more than a misguided troll that has nothing better to do than spout off nonsense about things you don't have clue about. Guess you should head back to the DU and hope you can get some better talking points. Not that I am holding out much hope for that, but there are some smart people over there.

Both the right and left are out of touch - the people who best know the US are the libertarians.

Indeed, the Far Right has some absurd policies, as does the Far Left. Most Americans dislike both; they elect who they feel as the more moderate candidate. I doubt that most Americans agree with every Bush policy, but the majority of Americans feel that his administration is the best alternative.

I consider myself a moderate conservative; conservative on some issues, moderate on others. The Terry Schiavo case is one example where I break with the Right. I personally feel that the government has no right to intervene in this unique case.

I believe that most Americans have common sense; they'll elect the lesser of the two evils. Sure, both sides will be extreme at times and try to get that grassroots support, but that's what happens in American democracy.

I forget who said this, but a famous individual once said,

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all of the other forms that have been tried."

Ah, here is another rant by someone who is still emotionally disturbed that John Kerry lost the last election. The fact is mainstream America reelected George W. Bush. Get over it or see a shrink. OK?

Ah, GREAT BEER AND FOOD is offline. I hear the shrink ambulance now ....

Both creationism and evolution should be taught; and after that it should be up to the one learning to decide what they believe. And a Judeo-Christian creationism doesn't have to be taught- just that Someone or something created the universe.

So the idea is that they should both be taught in science lessons, as valid theories? Sounds good to me, as long as there isn't too much bias either way.

I believe that most Americans have common sense; they'll elect the lesser of the two evils. Sure, both sides will be extreme at times and try to get that grassroots support, but that's what happens in American democracy.

I forget who said this, but a famous individual once said,

"Democracy is the worst form of government except all of the other forms that have been tried."
Why can't people break with the two-party system? Argh, it doesn't have to be that way - there are also libertarians.

That quote is from Winston Churchill

So the idea is that they should both be taught in science lessons, as valid theories? Sounds good to me, as long as there isn't too much bias either way.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Ah, GREAT BEER AND FOOD is offline. I hear the shrink ambulance now ....
Please stop trolling his/her thread.

Of course, I'm not a moderator, so I can in no way enforce that, but making comments like that one there tend to be frowned upon.

Excellent post dude.....Won't be long until Rethugs will be allying themselves with the flat earth society and neo-fascists. God help us. That whole Abu-Gharib incident was a huge black eye on America. It looked liked a scene out of Pasolini's "Salo or the 120 days of Sodom".

Look how they have moved the whole Terry Schiavo issue out of the Florida State court and now into congress. The state hade already made up it's mind to allow her husband to remove the feeding tubes but the far-right will do anything including interfering with states rights to get the right-wing agenda thru which was the same on gay marriages when Massachets decide to allow gay marriages but now they are trying to push a fedreal constitution amendment to ban gay marriages.

Which prove my point when I say America is becoming more and more like Fascist Germany.

Ah, here is another rant by someone who is still emotionally disturbed that John Kerry lost the last election. The fact is mainstream America reelected George W. Bush. Get over it or see a shrink. OK?

I voted for Peltier. Sorry, no fans of Kerry here dude

Please stop trolling his/her thread.

Of course, I'm not a moderator, so I can in no way enforce that, but making comments like that one there tend to be frowned upon.


Well someone who starts a thread like this should stick around long enough to defend it instead of running off like he/she has something to be afraid of .... like maybe the facts.

Why can't people break with the two-party system? Argh, it doesn't have to be that way - there are also libertarians.

That quote is from Winston Churchill

Thank you. I was wondering who that was from. :)

And also, now that you bring it up, do you think that the two-party system in America will last forever? (not necessarily the Republican and Democratic Parties, but just two main parties in general.)

You answered the question in your post:

They're the FAR right for a reason.

Well someone who starts a thread like this should stick around long enough to defend it instead of running off like he/she has something to be afraid of .... like maybe the facts.
most people do have lives outside the internet, you know

(1) Some conservative ideas DO make more sense than liberal ideas. It is partly the refusal of the left to come to terms with the fall of Communism (and the declining fortunes of Socialist states) that has caused the nation to shift right.

(2) The U.S. has ALWAYS been more conservative than you may think - especially in economics.

(3) Despite the rhetoric, the manufacturing base in the United States is steadily growing, and globalization is not affecting this. There are only two major differences: the United States is now manufacturing more valuable goods, and due to rising productivity it is requiring fewer workers to do so. Not much different from the decline in farm jobs 100 years ago (with a concurrent increase in agricultural output).

Of course, the conservatives are wrong on most of the social issues (though occasionally they make a good point). I tend towards more libertarian thinking myself.

And, of course, George Bush et al are not good conservatives. More than anything else, they seem concerned with doing whatever is needed to stay in office.

Ultimately, however, it is the American people who are responsible for working so hard to be ill-informed and ignorant, to the point that every election has become a question of which choice is least awful.

As for Creation v. Evolution - I have yet to meet a Creationist who actually understood the theory of Evolution that they are attacking, and the vast majority are even fuzzy on the idea of what a theory is. The Creationist position is untenable given the evidence currently available.



Baldur

Thank you. I was wondering who that was from. :)

And also, now that you bring it up, do you think that the two-party system in America will last forever? (not necessarily the Republican and Democratic Parties, but just two main parties in general.)

Most likely, but I think that the left will just die and it will be two semi-moderate parties, but slightly on either side of the center.

I voted for Peltier. Sorry, no fans of Kerry here dude

Oh, Peace and Freedom Party. Now there is a party out of the mainstream -- the Far Left American Haters.

Well someone who starts a thread like this should stick around long enough to defend it instead of running off like he/she has something to be afraid of .... like maybe the facts.

I'm right here dude.

Well someone who starts a thread like this should stick around long enough to defend it instead of running off like he/she has something to be afraid of .... like maybe the facts.

You know, your argument isn't exactly factually based...

Of course, blame corporations for everything...

Let me make this clear. Corporations aren't the problem! Government is the oppressor. It has been throughout history. Corporations have never really been a big deal.

You are on a computer and the internet and you cry about corporations? You can thank the liberals for the outsourcing it was them that signed the bill into law in the first place.

Again look above to see it was indeed the far left liberal quacks that started this ball rolling.
Sorry, but when did liberals ever start outsourcing?

I'm right here dude. That's strange, your icon on the left keeps saying "offline". Initially it looks like you started a thread and then ran away. But I will assume you are here now .... thanks.

Excellent post dude.....Won't be long until Rethugs will be allying themselves with the flat earth society and neo-fascists. God help us. That whole Abu-Gharib incident was a huge black eye on America. It looked liked a scene out of Pasolini's "Salo or the 120 days of Sodom".

Look how they have moved the whole Terry Schiavo issue out of the Florida State court and now into congress. The state hade already made up it's mind to allow her husband to remove the feeding tubes but the far-right will do anything including interfering with states rights to get the right-wing agenda thru which was the same on gay marriages when Massachets decide to allow gay marriages but now they are trying to push a fedreal constitution amendment to ban gay marriages.

Which prove my point when I say America is becoming more and more like Fascist Germany.

Exactly what I'm talking about! The Far Right only wants state's rights when it works for them!

And before the whole tyrade of name calling even starts, I'm Libertarian on EVERY issue but economics which I feel to be poorly thought out in the case of destroying the American economy and putting the American worker out on the street. I'm a financial moderate; I don't believe in just spending for spending's sake, and thats why I can't get with spending 87 billion dollars in Iraq instead of spending that money on the decaying American infrastructure.

I'm a total social Libertarian, and yes, that also includes gun rights and ownership.

I see nothing wrong with being liberal. I respect the liberal position, but I don't consider myself a liberal.

Personally, I wouldn't have an abortion, but I'm sure as hell not going to tell anyone else what to do with their bodies!

Okay, let's clear something up here that's been bugging me.

Right-wing=/=socially authoritarian.
Left-wing=/=socially libertarian.

The issues you are describing have little to do with right-wingedness and lots to do with social authoritarianism.

Oh, Peace and Freedom Party. Now there is a party out of the mainstream -- the Far Left American Haters.
:rolleyes:

Yeah, "The Peace and Freedom Party" sounds sooo hateful, doesn't it?

:rolleyes:

I'm right here dude.

No....you're somewhere over there....waaay over there...

Exactly what I'm talking about! The Far Right only wants state's rights when it works for them!

And before the whole tyrade of name calling even starts, I'm Libertarian on EVERY issue but economics which I feel to be poorly thought out in the case of destroying the American economy and putting the American worker out on the street. I'm a financial moderate; I don't believe in just spending for spending's sake, and thats why I can't get with spending 87 billion dollars in Iraq instead of spending that money on the decaying American infrastructure.

I'm a total social Libertarian, and yes, that also includes gun rights and ownership.

I see nothing wrong with being liberal. I respect the liberal position, but I don't consider myself a liberal.

Personally, I wouldn't have an abortion, but I'm sure as hell not going to tell anyone else what to do with their bodies!


Interesting, so there are a number of issues you would even disagree with Peltier on like gun control, etc. Why didn't you support the Libertarian Party then? Just curious.

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.

And a child has every right to practice his religion wherver he wants. Seperation of church and state was made to protect religion and government from one another; not so one could dictate what the other does. If I wanna pray in school, then God damnit I'm gonna pray in school.

Actually, scientists have changed the definition for theory so now evolution is a "proven fact, until otherwise noted"

Thank you. I was wondering who that was from. :)

And also, now that you bring it up, do you think that the two-party system in America will last forever? (not necessarily the Republican and Democratic Parties, but just two main parties in general.)
I dunno....

Actually, scientists have changed the definition for theory so now evolution is a "proven fact, until otherwise noted"

That sounds doubtful, but then again I suppose they DID get tired of idiots claiming "It's ONLY a theory!" without understanding what a theory is.



Baldur

People and society as a whole are better off when government backs off a bit and allows some breathing room. Trouble is that this becomes harder and harder to do as population and population density increases.

As for Creation v. Evolution - I have yet to meet a Creationist who actually understood the theory of Evolution that they are attacking, and the vast majority are even fuzzy on the idea of what a theory is. The Creationist position is untenable given the evidence currently available.


You know...what if it was BOTH theories that were correct...I mean who isn't to say that God didn't direct evolution. He could have killed of the dinosaurs and the plants of that age to provide us with oil...who isn't to say he used evolution to prepare this world for us. Who said when God says one day he doesn't mean 10 million years.

Of course, blame corporations for everything...

Let me make this clear. Corporations aren't the problem! Government is the oppressor. It has been throughout history. Corporations have never really been a big deal.
Out of curiosity, are you libertarian or anarchist?

So the starter of this thread is a communist?

You know...what if it was BOTH theories that were correct...I mean who isn't to say that God didn't direct evolution. He could have killed of the dinosaurs and the plants of that age to provide us with oil...who isn't to say he used evolution to prepare this world for us. Who said when God says one day he doesn't mean 10 million years.

True. A god would be metaphysical and therefore is not subject to our physical laws and our time.

Exactly what I'm talking about! The Far Right only wants state's rights when it works for them!

And before the whole tyrade of name calling even starts, I'm Libertarian on EVERY issue but economics which I feel to be poorly thought out in the case of destroying the American economy and putting the American worker out on the street. I'm a financial moderate; I don't believe in just spending for spending's sake, and thats why I can't get with spending 87 billion dollars in Iraq instead of spending that money on the decaying American infrastructure.

I'm a total social Libertarian, and yes, that also includes gun rights and ownership.

I see nothing wrong with being liberal. I respect the liberal position, but I don't consider myself a liberal.

Personally, I wouldn't have an abortion, but I'm sure as hell not going to tell anyone else what to do with their bodies!

I'm excactly the same I consider my self a Liberterian Socialist ith my my chart being -6/-6. The far right want to control everthing include the economic system in due time monoplies will be the only companies that u will be able to by ure goods and services. They don't care about small business only large corporations that will soon rule over people which is fascism. These corporations recieve millions in handouts from the government and are threatning our lives and existance. Do you really want to be able to shop at the Walmart/Sears/Kmart/Federated comglomrate stores or only buy the GM/Ford/KIA cars? or do you want to have real choice buy from small family owned business that have real customer service. readthis: http://www.mindmined.com/public_library/nonfiction/david_f_feudalism_aka_capitalism.html

Did the thought ever occur to anybody that perhaps the majority of people are wrong?

Out of curiosity, are you libertarian or anarchist?

Most of the libertarians that I know are realistic in their views; I always thought that extreme Libertarians were anarchists.

Both the right and left are out of touch - the people who best know the US are the libertarians.

Agreed entirely. For this main reason:

Did the thought ever occur to anybody that perhaps the majority of people are wrong?

It doesn't matter what the majority think if the only illegal acts are those which cause direct and demonstrable harm to a person other than the one commiting the act.

You know...what if it was BOTH theories that were correct...I mean who isn't to say that God didn't direct evolution. He could have killed of the dinosaurs and the plants of that age to provide us with oil...who isn't to say he used evolution to prepare this world for us. Who said when God says one day he doesn't mean 10 million years.

I agree entirely with the first bit - I know a fair few religious people who believe much the same, however I cannot come to terms with the idea that God meant anything other than a day when he said a day. He knows we're not going to be thinking '20,000,000 years' when he says 'a day', and therefore either he's being ambiguous on purpose, or the Good Book is lying.

One thing I have to concede to the folks who believe in the the Creation theory is the evidence of design in DNA and nature. There must have been some super intellect that "created" all of this. It could be a god or as yet undiscovered space-based civilization that designed the flora and fauna on the earth eons ago. Shouldn' those two possibilities be taught in school. Evolutionists who wish to restrict thought to their theory only are not intellectually honest.

Sorry, but when did liberals ever start outsourcing?

Ever heard of NAFTA? Clinton signed it, Gore even debated against Perot and won basing his arguements on the good it would do the USA. That is where this outsourcing started and if not for that jump start it could be said that it would be no where today. Atleast not nearly as much of an issue, of course it could be said where was the crying for those lost jobs when the bill went into effect? I guess that would of shit on Clinton a bit to much and the liberals couldn't have that. They finally got the White house back after 12 years, of course Clinton cost them the House in 1994 and numerous Governships but hey they got the White House.

You know...what if it was BOTH theories that were correct...I mean who isn't to say that God didn't direct evolution. He could have killed of the dinosaurs and the plants of that age to provide us with oil...who isn't to say he used evolution to prepare this world for us. Who said when God says one day he doesn't mean 10 million years.
Why?


Why even bother with that entire farce? Just so he can say "ha ha, fooled you, now you're going to hell"?

Did the thought ever occur to anybody that perhaps the majority of people are wrong?

Assuming this is true. What is the alternative? Rule by some super intellectual elite? A Father Knows Best State? Who will decide what is right and wrong and on what set of ethics?

Interesting, so there are a number of issues you would even disagree with Peltier on like gun control, etc. Why didn't you support the Libertarian Party then? Just curious.

I'm just at odds with their economics. I truly believe that in a cut throat world, nations have to put up some economic roadblocks to protect both workers and the economy. I just can't get with eating the seed corn for a quick fix. If American industry is outdated then we need to fix it, not ship it elsewhere. If we're going to require American workers to so called "get with the times" then we need to make that a reality; we need to make the schooling that will make that happen either cheap or free, an intergral part of the childhood curriculum of education and we need to make sure that all workers are compensated in some way while learning this new training and not receiving a paycheck.

I believe that the free market works wonders for people like Harvard graduates and the like, but its not a good universal policy to implement in say, in the poverty stricken Appalachians, or in places where there are no safeguards to protect the weak from the strong.

Until we can lift everyone in this country up to a certain standard of living, a social structure must remain in place as a safety net to catch those who fall through the cracks or else we really can't call ourselves a first world nation.

I feel that the current implementation of free world economics is less for the benefit of the working man and geared more towards making the rich even richer.

So thats where I break with American Libertarianism. Other than that, I'm pretty much right there with it.

Ever heard of NAFTA? Clinton signed it, Gore even debated against Perot and won basing his arguements on the good it would do the USA. That is where this outsourcing started and if not for that jump start it could be said that it would be no where today. Atleast not nearly as much of an issue, of course it could be said where was the crying for those lost jobs when the bill went into effect? I guess that would of shit on Clinton a bit to much and the liberals couldn't have that. They finally got the White house back after 12 years, of course Clinton cost them the House in 1994 and numerous Governships but hey they got the White House.

True, but I think it's quite a stretch to call Clinton a liberal, LOL.

I think the better question is; "why is the whole DNC leadership so out of step with main stream America"

Ever heard of NAFTA? Clinton signed it, Gore even debated against Perot and won basing his arguements on the good it would do the USA. That is where this outsourcing started and if not for that jump start it could be said that it would be no where today. Atleast not nearly as much of an issue, of course it could be said where was the crying for those lost jobs when the bill went into effect? I guess that would of shit on Clinton a bit to much and the liberals couldn't have that. They finally got the White house back after 12 years, of course Clinton cost them the House in 1994 and numerous Governships but hey they got the White House.

Yes but you should point out that it was the Dems who passed NAFTA not libs they are two diffrent groups. Dems havn't been liberals for over 15 years now. They're just as conservative as the Rethugs and getting even more.(Just imagine if Zell Miller ran the Dems the dude is a fascist) I mean the considered Howard Dean to be too liberal

I mean the considered Howard Dean to be too liberal

Howard Dean does tend to be liberal in his views.

This is liberal in the American sense of the word; I know I'm going get some heat from the Europeans on this one.

I would suggest that it is you who is out of touch. The left is so out of touch they can't even determine what is 'in step' let alone 'out of step'. They confuse center with 'far right', as I illustrate below - in about the same order as your rant attempts to.


My point is this: If you think that the Far Left is out of step, take a look at the Far Right:.....

Creationsim - AKA Intelligent Design. There is no evidence yet that this is incorrect. Modern evolution is an observable fact, but there are too many missing links to determine human evolution- Even if it prooves to be factual, what started it? and before that.. etc. There comes a point when the answer is unknown, and always will be. Mainstream America seems to be open minded to this possibility.

Gay marriage - So far every ballot has reflected that mainstream America thinks this is a bad idea. (though I personally don't care either way. Who cares what the government thinks)

Euthanasia - Once again, it has not really done so well in votes. Physician Assisted Suicide barely passed in Oregon in 94 and hasn't made it that far in other states. Most folks still think doctirs should heal, not kill.

Abortion - Yet again you make the error. most Americans agree there should be limits and restrictions on this, particulary partial birth.

Patriot Act - A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll in 2004 suggests that most Americans back the idea behind the Patriot Act.

Spin - Huh, a report in the whitehouse sympathetic to the administration! GASP! I can't believe this administration is even considering participating in media relations!

Free Speach zones - The first presidential caucas had this. It was in Boston and it was the DNC. They were under the bleachers by the air conditioners. Maybe it is the protestors who are out of touch, even with their own party.

Tax Cuts - Most people want even more of em.

Economic Protectionism - Lets not just stop the jobs, but also the cash. Stop letting foreigners invest in the US. In fact, lets take back the jobs all of the illegals have taken as well. We'll put a minfield on the border. American's oughta be picking our produce! Who cares about the economy! Yay nationalism! Support your local teamster! Oh, what? The laborers are leaving unions... why? I gues that idea ain't so popular afterall.

Social Security - Most folks like the system and want it fixed. So far there has been little dialogue on the various solutions. Too early for there to be public opinion on the options. I fail to see what is out of step with suggesting a solution. Too bad the liberals won't do that.

POW treatment - Only soldiers can be POWs. Few Americans are concerned with the rights of terrorists.

Abu Ghraib - We didn't courtmartial those soldiers? Really? Wow, I'd have to be out of touch to have missed THAT!

Prayer in schools - I fail to see what about invocatino you consider scary. Most Americans support seperation of church/state, but not alienation of it. They want 'God' in the pledge and Christmas in school.

I merely wish to be left alone to enjoy my American freedoms without governmental interference is somehow wrong, misguided, and unAmerican
Good, support reduced government and we'll all be happy. Reduce tax, entitlements and regulations. Hey! That sounds like a conservative! (which most liberals confuse with a Republican)

American Liberal=Moderate right. Kerry was only about 1 point diffrence on the Nolan Chart from W. The only true liberals in the dem party running for pres in 2004 were Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton.

I'm just at odds with their economics. I truly believe that in a cut throat world, nations have to put up some economic roadblocks to protect both workers and the economy.

I feel that the current implementation of free world economics is less for the benefit of the working man and geared more towards making the rich even richer.

So thats where I break with American Libertarianism. Other than that, I'm pretty much right there with it.

I am pretty much a Libertarian too, but more on the free market side of the aisle. One thing I deviate from my more pure libertarian friends was after 9/11 I don't mind the U.S. government going whole hog after terrorists around the world by any means possible. I believe it is a matter of national self-defense because I think the primary duty of any government is to protect the lives of its people. The terrorists imprisoned in Abu Ghraib if given the chance would no less than want to slit our throats. I think the abuse that went on there had a lot less to do with extracting information from them than a bunch of misfits who decided on their own to have a little bit of very sick "fun".

Ever heard of NAFTA? Clinton signed it, Gore even debated against Perot and won basing his arguements on the good it would do the USA. That is where this outsourcing started and if not for that jump start it could be said that it would be no where today. Atleast not nearly as much of an issue, of course it could be said where was the crying for those lost jobs when the bill went into effect? I guess that would of shit on Clinton a bit to much and the liberals couldn't have that. They finally got the White house back after 12 years, of course Clinton cost them the House in 1994 and numerous Governships but hey they got the White House.
Ah, I see you are confusing liberals with Democrats. Clinton is Democrat, but not liberal.

I would suggest that it is you who is out of touch. The left is so out of touch they can't even determine what is 'in step' let alone 'out of step'. They confuse center with 'far right', as I illustrate below - in about the same order as your rant attempts to.



Creationsim - AKA Intelligent Design. There is no evidence yet that this is incorrect. Modern evolution is an observable fact, but there are too many missing links to determine human evolution- Even if it prooves to be factual, what started it? and before that.. etc. There comes a point when the answer is unknown, and always will be. Mainstream America seems to be open minded to this possibility.

Radio carbon dating, dinosaur bones, caveman bones...sorry hon but science with it's burden of proof will always win out with me over blind faith. Show me the bones of Adam and Eve and I'll believe it.

Gay marriage - So far every ballot has reflected that mainstream America thinks this is a bad idea. (though I personally don't care either way. Who cares what the government thinks)

Euthanasia - Once again, it has not really done so well in votes. Physician Assisted Suicide barely passed in Oregon in 94 and hasn't made it that far in other states. Most folks still think doctirs should heal, not kill.

Abortion - Yet again you make the error. most Americans agree there should be limits and restrictions on this, particulary partial birth.

Every one of these should be state's rights issues! The federal government needs to take it's hands off!

Patriot Act - A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll in 2004 suggests that most Americans back the idea behind the Patriot Act.

I just recently saw a Zogby's poll that said exactly the opposite......back at square one....

Spin - Huh, a report in the whitehouse sympathetic to the administration! GASP! I can't believe this administration is even considering participating in media relations!

All sarcasm aside, me either. The White house + press participation = Orwellian style propaganda everytime.

Free Speach zones - The first presidential caucas had this. It was in Boston and it was the DNC. They were under the bleachers by the air conditioners. Maybe it is the protestors who are out of touch, even with their own party.

Cleverly, you leave out incidents like police and security screening and searching all people within camera shot of Bush to make sure none of them have an anti Bush poster or message of any sort. If I'm not mistaken, that is a direct infringement on the freedom to peacefully assemble.

Tax Cuts - Most people want even more of em.

But not for millionaires

Economic Protectionism - Lets not just stop the jobs, but also the cash. Stop letting foreigners invest in the US. In fact, lets take back the jobs all of the illegals have taken as well. We'll put a minfield on the border. American's oughta be picking our produce! Who cares about the economy! Yay nationalism! Support your local teamster! Oh, what? The laborers are leaving unions... why? I gues that idea ain't so popular afterall.

Nice slippery slope argument there. Sort of like cutting off the whole leg because of frostbite on the toes. No one has ever suggested anything you're saying, only a mild form of protectionism to keep American jobs in America. If you hate welfare, you're really going to hate what it's going to look like when the dole becomes plump with laid off American workers who have nowhere else to go.

Social Security - Most folks like the system and want it fixed. So far there has been little dialogue on the various solutions. Too early for there to be public opinion on the options. I fail to see what is out of step with suggesting a solution. Too bad the liberals won't do that.

Plenty of facts and suggestions here:

http://www.thereisnocrisis.com/

POW treatment - Only soldiers can be POWs. Few Americans are concerned with the rights of terrorists.

In the meantime, it's been brought to center stage that the majority of those being tortured are ordinary people at the wrong place, at the wrong time, who were in no way terrorists. And yes, we care.

Abu Ghraib - We didn't courtmartial those soldiers? Really? Wow, I'd have to be out of touch to have missed THAT!

Rumsfeld got court martialed?? Right on! It's about f'ing time!

Hi

-I think "GREAT BEER AND FOOD" has a few good points. I think you are little bit "Angry" ...maybe!?

-I seems like alot of people is trying to prove you wrong, with little or no succes. Keep up the good work :)

Harry "the Bastard" (English is not my native language)

Creationsim - AKA Intelligent Design. There is no evidence yet that this is incorrect. Modern evolution is an observable fact, but there are too many missing links to determine human evolution- Even if it prooves to be factual, what started it? and before that.. etc. There comes a point when the answer is unknown, and always will be. Mainstream America seems to be open minded to this possibility.


The reason is that there is no evidence it is incorrect is that there's no evidence for it at all. Lack of evidence to the contrary is not proof: The only effective proof is evidence of it. There is none for Creationism, and therefore it does not count as a scientifically valid theory.

Prayer in schools? Not if your paying for it with MY tax dollars! You want your kid to pray in school? Send him to a parochial school. Leave the schools funded with taxpayer (people like me!) dollars alone!

As long as the teacher isn't making the kids do it it's fine.

As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in our public schools.

I'm all for prayer in school, as long as you don't make anyone who doesn't wish to pray participate. If say, I was to continue working while everyone else prayed, and I was punished, then it would be forcing religion on me and I would be forced to object. Other than that, go for it.

As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in our public schools.

LOL, true

I've taken part in plenty of arguements on this subject, and mot of the time people just end up getting really pissed when they find out I'm Canadian and calling Americans the problems of the world.

So I won't do that here, but I will say that Liberals aren't against just Christianity in schools. In the US, Christianity is they main religion, it's supported by Bush on every level and were things his way I believe everything would revolve around it. Teaching creationism in schools in my opinion, is wrong mostly because it's just one of hundreds of other theories. Evolution is the most widely supported, hence it's the one that is teached.

Also, in this day and age, it seems to me that the terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" and "Right and "Left" are getting more and more skewed to the point where it's not really relevant. There are too many issues to take sides on, and you can't really take someone's views on everything and label them.

Oh, and by the way, Anarchy is a Non-Government. There is no Extreme Anarchism, you're either anarchist or not.

I'm proud to say it. I am not an American. It's not my fault, but it still makes me proud. Because, being an American these days... well, it's not all it used to be. Lets examine it, shall we?

The World is no longer Americas best buddy. Oh, we were friendly. We had trade agreements, solid alliances (NATO, NORAD, NAFTA ect.), and we were ready to stand by "the land of the free" through thick and thin. The majority of the populace in most countries considered Americans to be at worst, people strange accents, and political ideas were respected all around. Sure, you guys were a little further right then most, in general, but you'd always been that way.

Then we have 9/11. The trade centre burned. The people died. And the allied nations stood firm. Everyone felt sorry for you. Everyone felt upset that this disaster had happened. Everyone understood that the people who did this had to be caught and punished. Admittedly, some of us don't usually go for the death penalty, but, in this case, we were going to look the other way. Into Afghanistan. We didn't care that you were hitting a sovereign state, or that you massacred civilians, or anything else really. Our buddy got punched in the nose, and we were going to help him punch back ten times harder. Out with the Taliban, in with Democracy, and then...

U.S. A. Invades Iraq! Wait a sec.. I thought you said Osama was over here... Hello? Suddenly, it was all "Weapons Of This! Oppression Of That!". Did we miss something? Hey Sam! The guys still over here! We just need your help to lift up this rock and... Sam? Saaammm... Where'd he go? Into Iraq? What’s over there? some crazy dictator guy, a totally obsolete army... oil... more oil... geez, you'd almost think that, The U.S. was after the OIL, wouldn't you? Suddenly no one was sympathetic anymore. What is Sam doing over there? Shouldn't he still be helping us look for the guys who punched him?

The spread of Lies and Conservatism All the while, another sentiment has been spreading in the USA. The land of the free became the land of the free-if-your-view-is-my-view. Suddenly, if you disagreed with the government on anything, you were "the enemy". You were "either with us, or against us" was how I remember it being put. What ever happened to free speech? In a flood of religious zealot, the Christian Right swarmed down. Scientific theories, such as evolution, accepted as common knowledge in other countries suddenly became the work of the devil. Church and state started to fuse together, and the US position on other issues drifted from right-of-centre to right wing to theocratic. Abortion. Gay rights. Euthinisasia. You name it, they're banning it.

If you ever need a place to stay...So all this leads up to why LEFT WING America is out of touch with mainstream America. Because main stream America is out of touch with the rest of the world. You guys are what the rest of us call "centralists". And once the U.S. starts banning Science, and anything that isn't in the bible, your welcome north of our mutual border anytime.

Since you are still in rant mode I'll still break these by subject;

Creationsim.
Radio carbon dating, dinosaur bones, caveman bones...sorry hon but science with it's burden of proof will always win out with me over blind faith. Show me the bones of Adam and Eve and I'll believe it.

Dinosaur bones? What does that have to do with human evolution? Are you so closed minded you can only consider partial evidence? You've never considered the 'book from a bookstore explosion' theory? Even more egregious, you ignore the entire point of my postulation - which is not unfriendly to evolution at all. Talk about closed minded people - look in a mirror. Still out of touch - most Americans are open minded.

Abortion, euthanasia, Gay marriage

Every one of these should be state's rights issues! The federal government needs to take it's hands off!

You think abortion should be a state right issue? Good, we agree on something. Quit subsidizing it with tax dollars and we're about perfect. Then let each state vote on their own access and restrictions. (though it would take little time at all to end up in the supreme court) Presuming it held you'd find the results much closer to the conservative platform according to every survey taken in the last ten years. No 'abortion on demand' and no 'abortion prohibition' either. You'd have something in the middle, which is less than we have today. Funny how state rights are only an important issue when you are not in the majority...

Patriot Act

I just recently saw a Zogby's poll that said exactly the opposite......back at square one....

We'll call it a wash then, but that does not help your 'out of touch' case at all.

spin

All sarcasm aside, me either. The White house + press participation = Orwellian style propaganda everytime.



White house press participation? They have a newspaper of their own? Or is it a radio statin? TV? None? Oh, red herring you say?

Free Speech Zones. (Now called trespassing by your updated definition)

Cleverly, you leave out incidents like police and security screening and searching all people within camera shot of Bush to make sure none of them have an anti Bush poster or message of any sort. If I'm not mistaken, that is a direct infringement on the freedom to peacefully assemble.
There are plenty of restrictions on freedom to assemble. For example you cannot trespass on a police funeral step to the front and start discussing the finer points of legalizing cannabis. At a private affair anyone has a right to screen their guests. The Republican party and the president are all allowed to have private events. There is no infringement.

Tax Cuts

But not for millionaires


Yes, even for millionairs. They pay most of the taxes afterall. Economic discrimination is still discrimination from either end of the scale. Besides, a million dollars net worth is not much these days. Most homes are worth almost half that. You're going to have to raise the bar some if you want to start class warfare. you sound as out of touch as Dr. Evil.

protectionism

Nice slippery slope argument there. Sort of like cutting off the whole leg because of frostbite on the toes. No one has ever suggested anything you're saying, only a mild form of protectionism to keep American jobs in America. If you hate welfare, you're really going to hate what it's going to look like when the dole becomes plump with laid off American workers who have nowhere else to go.

mild form of protectionism... Ohh, well then. If you put it THAT way you got MY vote. Now, lets just send all those Japanese jobs back. See ya Toyota. Same for the European ones. Canada? Take off! These American jobs are so much better! Hey, just what IS an American job anyway?

saving social security

Plenty of facts and suggestions here:

http://www.thereisnocrisis.com/


You'll have to do the work and dig it out. All I found was a bunch of hype and no substance. I did like this line though;
"Social Security will remain solvent for decades. There is no crisis." DECADES?? Is that it??!! I suppose it is not a crisis only if you don't plan to be around in a few decades! I wonder who the sites sponsor is - AARP? What a coincidence!

Terrorist prisoners

In the meantime, it's been brought to center stage that the majority of those being tortured are ordinary people at the wrong place, at the wrong time, who were in no way terrorists. And yes, we care.
Yes, that sounds familiar. The guys on "Cops" say that each week. Wrong place/wrong time = Afganistan behind enemy lines with enemy combatants. "Aww, but I was just going to the store to get my mom some milk! I have no idea who put that AK47 in my truck!"

Abu Ghraib

Rumsfeld got court martialed?? Right on! It's about f'ing time!
You poor bitter soul. Really. You've been reading too many books about men in black suits. Surely you know it wasn't Rumsfeld, it was the ILLUMINATI!

Out of touch = you.

I'm proud to say it. I am not an American. It's not my fault, but it still makes me proud. Because, being an American these days... well, it's not all it used to be. Lets examine it, shall we?
.

It is embarrasing for anyone of european descent to see what has become of that continent. There was a time when our allies could be counted on. Now they are conniving backstabing cowards seeking their own selfish interests. They would defend a murder only to maintain access to his oil! They would sneak around the UN trying to create programs to exploit! They would even leave the people of a struggleing new nation to the mercy of rogue terrorists merely to make an arrogant point to the US.

There will come a time one day (probably sooner than you think) when Europe will find herself threatened. She will plea to America for help and we will say 'Where were you when we asked for your help?' Then we'll sit and watch. No long-winded arrogant speeches about your lack of morality or integrity. We'll simply watch.

Don't worry too much, If things go badly for Europe we will step in and save your sorry arses - we always have. For over one hundred years America has never turned her back on Europe the way the are turning their back today. Unlike Europe, however, the US is still good for her word. We'll be there when you need us... again.

Shit... this is a "left VS right" rant isn't it...

If you ever need a place to stay...So all this leads up to why LEFT WING America is out of touch with mainstream America. Because main stream America is out of touch with the rest of the world. You guys are what the rest of us call "centralists". And once the U.S. starts banning Science, and anything that isn't in the bible, your welcome north of our mutual border anytime.

:sings "O Canada"

Trust me I think there is a lot of folks who are going move.

It is embarrasing for anyone of european descent to see what has become of that continent. There was a time when our allies could be counted on. Now they are conniving backstabing cowards seeking their own selfish interests. They would defend a murder only to maintain access to his oil! They would sneak around the UN trying to create programs to exploit! They would even leave the people of a struggleing new nation to the mercy of rogue terrorists merely to make an arrogant point to the US.

There will come a time one day (probably sooner than you think) when Europe will find herself threatened. She will plea to America for help and we will say 'Where were you when we asked for your help?' Then we'll sit and watch. No long-winded arrogant speeches about your lack of morality or integrity. We'll simply watch.

Don't worry too much, If things go badly for Europe we will step in and save your sorry arses - we always have. For over one hundred years America has never turned her back on Europe the way the are turning their back today. Unlike Europe, however, the US is still good for her word. We'll be there when you need us... again.

Dude you need to look beyond your blind patriotism and see whats going on. Currently our nation is $7.5 Trillion in debt and by the end of Bush II will be at least $9-10 trillon. We are stuck in a war that will never end while our allies are pulling out-Italy will pull out in '05 and we have a government that is moving closer to borderline fascism. We can't even rebuild our infrusturcure we have people in lala land who belive if we just go back to the 1950's everything will be a utopia. We have an Idiot President and a corrupt selfish congress. We have religious leaders who wanta send gays & lesbians to internment camps and who have abandoned social justice while they have affairs with their parishoners and drive Rolls-Royces. We are so blind we can't see that W's Social Security plan is nothing more than another way for the rich to fuck the poor and our health insurance system is fucked up.

We'll lose our last ally when the UK citizens that get rid of their American puppet Blair and decide that they want ot get out of the war. hell even Spain and Italy are leaving because they know that this war is based on false pretense. A war for oil.

Don't get all out of wack liberal puke. Yeah we started a war under partially false pretenses, so what? If you think about it, if the Arabs ever stop the flow of oil, or when the oil wells dry up, not if but when it does. There will be a war who's likes the world has never seen before, all old alliances dead, all resources to the brink of collapse.

We were ensuring that such a war doesn't happen any time soon, we had to send a messge to the Arab-Muslim world that the Western World will not dance for them any more. And you know what, the message was received, given China's now drinking up the profits (damn Commie Chink Bastards, should have bombed them back to the stone age when we had the chance.) and we're near depression, but I'd rather see America go through another depression then ever have to see WWIII.

How bout you? HUH!? I hope you Brits remember this sacrifice when it comes time to rebuild America's economy, but don't expect us to switch to the Pound.

PS: Oh, and don't switch to the Euro, don't need to anyway. Keep strong and keep those damn French Fucks under thumb. Peace out ... South Side.

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.
Actually, scientists have changed the definition for theory so now evolution is a "proven fact, until otherwise noted"That sounds doubtful, but then again I suppose they DID get tired of idiots claiming "It's ONLY a theory!" without understanding what a theory is.

The use of theory by science:

Here is what each of these terms means to a scientist:

Scientific Law: This is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and univseral, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. Scientific laws are similar to mathematical postulates. They don’t really need any complex external proofs; they are accepted at face value based upon the fact that they have always been observed to be true.

Some scientific laws, or laws of nature, include the law of gravity, the law of thermodynamics, and Hook’s law of elasticity.

Hypothesis: This is an educated guess based upon observation. It is a rational explanation of a single event or phenomenon based upon what is observed, but which has not been proved. Most hypotheses can be supported or refuted by experimentation or continued observation.

Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law governs a single action, whereas a theory explains a whole series of related phenomena.

Some scientific theories include the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, and the quantum theory. All of these theories are well documented and proved beyond reasonable doubt. Yet scientists continue to tinker with the component hypotheses of each theory in an attempt to make them more elegant and concise, or to make them more all-encompassing. Theories can be tweaked, but they are seldom, if ever, entirely replaced.
http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

Gravity is a law. Evolution is a Theory. Intelligent Design is a hypothesis (or not, depending on if you you consider it to be rational).

commented on by B0zzy in underlined italics to save space

Dude you need to look beyond your blind patriotism and see whats going on.

Currently our nation is $7.5 Trillion in debt and by the end of Bush II will be at least $9-10 trillon. not fact

We are stuck in a war that will never end not fact while our allies are pulling out-Italy will pull out in '05 fact (that will be remembered)
we have a government that is moving closer to borderline fascism. not fact
We can't even rebuild our infrusturcure we have people in lala land who belive if we just go back to the 1950's everything will be a utopia. not fact

We have an Idiot President and a corrupt selfish congress. not fact

We have religious leaders who wanta send gays & lesbians to internment camps and who have abandoned social justice while they have affairs with their parishoners and drive Rolls-Royces. not fact

We are so blind we can't see that W's Social Security plan is nothing more than another way for the rich to fuck the poor and our health insurance system is fucked up. not fact

We'll lose our last ally when the UK citizens that get rid of their American puppet Blair and decide that they want to get out of the war. not fact

hell even Spain and Italy are leaving because they know that this war is based on false pretense. A war for oil. not fact

Wow, so it is true that if you mix propoganda with just a little bit of fact people will believe it. Yo'd have loved many of the movies produced by the Third Reich. I count nine non-facts (aka opinion) statements compared to only one factual statement. Until you get in touch with the difference between fact and opinion you are doomed to irrelevance. That is similar to what makes the Democrats out of touch - Unpopular (read - out of touch) opinions based on little, if any, factual content. Michael Moore has done a huge disservice to your party. It is now overwhealmed by propoganda of the most ridiculous type. American's can see right through it along with many of the other nations of the world. Europes flaw is in assuming that because American's are different from them it makes us somehow inferior - an opinion they've had about non-european cultures for centuries. I call it arrogance at best, but closer to bigotry.

I've heard a lot of whining an boo hoo-ing about how the Far Left is "out of step with mainstream America". Not to mention the fact that these words "out of step" and "mainstream America" are straight out of the Newt Gingrich play book on framing the argument using certain key words, but nevermend.

My point is this: If you think that the Far Left is out of step, take a look at the Far Right:
<snip major rant>


If they're so far out of step with mainstream America, then explain why Bush got more votes for President this last time around than Clinton did either time he was elected.

Are you saying that a plurality of Americans are out of step with themselves?

"Mainstream America" is the plurality - whether you like it or not.

And believe it or not, there are major differences within the Republican Party - whether or not to run up deficits - whether or not to go with state's rights - more differences than you seem to think exist.

I recall rather strict limits on my political speech at work during the Clinton Administration. Limits that would get you fired. And I didn't even work for the government.

I don't see Bush and Clinton as being that far apart - except that I no longer have to suffer the threat from Democrats at work that anything they perceive as politically incorrect would be grounds for eliminating me.

That's why it's the Law of gravity; and the theory of evolution.

Nice try, though.
http://www.netowne.com/technology/important/

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/6417_the_record_of_human_evolution_12_7_2000.asp


The so called law of gravity is the theory of gravitation, you lose

I've heard a lot of whining an boo hoo-ing about how the Far Left is "out of step with mainstream America".

My point is this: If you think that the Far Left is out of step, take a look at the Far Right:
This rant brought to you courtesy of Moveon.org. We bring elitism to the masses.

American Liberal=Moderate right. Kerry was only about 1 point diffrence on the Nolan Chart from W. The only true liberals in the dem party running for pres in 2004 were Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton.
Al Sharpton is a "true liberal??" OMFG! Where do I sign up to become a neo-conservative-in-training???

http://www.netowne.com/technology/important/

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/6417_the_record_of_human_evolution_12_7_2000.asp

The so called law of gravity is the theory of gravitation, you lose

There is no gravity - the earth sucks.

There is no gravity - the earth sucks.
*rimshot

The use of theory by science:


http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

Gravity is a law. Evolution is a Theory. Intelligent Design is a hypothesis (or not, depending on if you you consider it to be rational).

Did you realize that the site you're quoting from is one that "specializes in family entertainment" and also has a section for Bible study? I think your definitions would be more reliable if they came from a site devoted to science and not religion.

Creationism can't be tested scientifically and shouldn't be taught in a science class. If they'd like to offer religion classes, they can teach it there. Personally, I think it would be a good thing to offer a world religion class as an elective in high schools. Or maybe touch on the major religions in social studies classes in elementary school.

Intelligent design bases itself, in a twisted way,on evolution by saying that anything that can't be explained by evolution must imply a supernatural intelligent design. It's not falsifiable, therefore it can't be a theory because it's not testable. That again makes it not scientific and shouldn't be taught in science class. It's an interesting subject for philosophy class though.

http://www.netowne.com/technology/important/

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/6417_the_record_of_human_evolution_12_7_2000.asp


The so called law of gravity is the theory of gravitation, you lose

Nope. You loose.

Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation states that any two objects exert a gravitational force of attraction on each other.
http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/physics/circ/node7.html#SECTION00760000000000000000

Scientific law: a generalized description, usually expressed in mathematical terms, which describes the empirical behavior of matter.

Scientific laws describe things. They do not explain them.

Example: drop a pencil, drop a book, drop a ball, drop a ruler, in fact drop anything that is heavier than air, and it will fall. The generalized description is the law of gravity ("objects that are heavier than air fall when released"). Notice that this doesn't tell us what gravity is, but it does describe its behavior. Of course, if we were to really do this "scientifically", we'd make measurements about the speed of the fall, and then we'd probably state the law as Isaac Newton did mathematically.
Remember this very important idea: Isaac Newton knew what gravity did (he could describe its behavior), but he could not explain why gravity did it. Even today the topic of what gravity really is, is an active topic for scientific discussion.
http://www.carlton.paschools.pa.sk.ca/chemical/Proof/default.htm

Tesla's Dynamic Theory of Gravity (your link) isn't what the layman (or even the scientist) usually mean when they speak of the Law of Gravity. And Occult Ether Physics, from which that was excerpted speaks for itself. BTW, Tesla's theory is simply ignored by modern science, as it rejects principles of relativity which show up in very broad range of effects and have been confirmed by numerous. experiments.

Ahh, gotta love how hateful and stupid Americans on both sides get when you start talking about the right this or the left that. You've also gotta love the blind patriots who believe America is so utterly perfect, that if you mention a single thing you don't like about it, it means you're obviously just an ungreatful piece of shit that should do them a favor and go crawl off and die somewhere and leave it to the people who know enough to respect the country as the benevolent and unfallible protectors of everything that's good and right and just in the world and that the rest of the world disagrees because they're just jealous or whatever bullshit they decide to spew at whoever had the audacity to speak negatively about their country.

And it wasn't "You're either with us, or against us" it was "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists."

Face it, America teaches its citizens one thing above all: how to be good little consumers/workers and do and believe what they're told to do and believe.

Did you realize that the site you're quoting from is one that "specializes in family entertainment" and also has a section for Bible study? I think your definitions would be more reliable if they came from a site devoted to science and not religion.

:eek: Didn't even look over the rest of the site, as it gave a good explanation. You are correct. :(

Here's a better one, to make up for that.

A hypothesis is an idea or proposition that can be tested by observations or experiments, about the natural world. In order to be considered scientific, hypotheses are subject to scientific evaluation and must be falsifiable, which means that they are worded in such a way that they can be proven to be incorrect.

To scientists, a theory is a coherent explanation for a large number of facts and observations about the natural world.

A scientific law is a description of a natural phenomenon or principle that invariably holds true under specific conditions and will occur under certain circumstances.
http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/evolution/Theories.shtml

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.


Evolution is a theory in that it called "The Theory of Evolution" ... however we have these other theories like "Newton's Theory of Gravitation" and "Einstein's theory of Special Relativity" All three of these are scientificly (and indeed the latter two, mathematically) proven

Ahh, gotta love how hateful and stupid Americans on both sides get when you start talking about the right this or the left that. You've also gotta love the blind patriots who believe America is so utterly perfect, that if you mention a single thing you don't like about it, it means you're obviously just an ungreatful piece of shit that should do them a favor and go crawl off and die somewhere and leave it to the people who know enough to respect the country as the benevolent and unfallible protectors of everything that's good and right and just in the world and that the rest of the world disagrees because they're just jealous or whatever bullshit they decide to spew at whoever had the audacity to speak negatively about their country.

And it wasn't "You're either with us, or against us" it was "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists."

Face it, America teaches its citizens one thing above all: how to be good little consumers/workers and do and believe what they're told to do and believe.

Ahh, gotta love how hateful and stupid Europeans on both sides get when you start talking about the right this or the left that. You've also gotta love the blind socialists who believe Europe is so utterly perfect, that if you mention a single thing you don't like about it, it means you're obviously just an uneducated piece of shit that should do them a favor and go crawl off and die somewhere and leave it to the people who know enough to respect the Europeans as the benevolent and unfallible protectors of everything that's good and right and just in the world and that the rest of the world disagrees because they're just jealous or whatever bullshit they decide to spew at whoever had the audacity to speak negatively about Europe.

And it wasn't "You're either with us, or against us" it was "You're either a European or you're shit."

Face it, Europe teaches its citizens one thing above all: how to be good little consumers/workers and do and believe what they're told to do and believe.

Yes you have a right to with what goes on in your womb. But that right ends about the same time that you devote it to having a child be brought up in it. Also, the power of the governnment to give out aid is only ther because of the great depression. having a country that babies its citizens will do no good.

Glenorand :sniper:


See this is why I hate the right, the utter hypocracy, first you say the government has control over your body, then you want to government to stop treating people like babies, both ideas are utterly insane.

Both creationism and evolution should be taught; and after that it should be up to the one learning to decide what they believe. And a Judeo-Christian creationism doesn't have to be taught- just that Someone or something created the universe.

creationism is an utter joke in all its forms, its jacked up to be a genuine scientific theory when actually its following consists of a group of morons without the slightest hint of logical thought, causality just doesnt seem to matter to you guys. There isn't a single credable scientist who supports creationism .... FACT.

Ah, here is another rant by someone who is still emotionally disturbed that John Kerry lost the last election. The fact is mainstream America reelected George W. Bush. Get over it or see a shrink. OK?

Lol, you yanks have got even less of a democracy than we do, don't delude yourself.

Man, interesting thread. I'll have to read it in detail later.

Creationism should not be taught in school. Unless it's a religious school, of course. Science should be taught in school. If you think creationism should be taught in school because of a need to cover all possibilities, then aren't there hundreds of possibilities? Should schools waste an enormous amount of time teaching religion?

Evolution is a theory in that it called "The Theory of Evolution" ... however we have these other theories like "Newton's Theory of Gravitation" and "Einstein's theory of Special Relativity" All three of these are scientificly (and indeed the latter two, mathematically) proven

As I said before, gravity is a law (unless you think it isn't "a description of a natural phenomenon or principle that invariably holds true under specific conditions and will occur under certain circumstances").

Ahh, gotta love how hateful and stupid Americans on both sides get when you start talking about the right this or the left that. You've also gotta love the blind patriots who believe America is so utterly perfect, that if you mention a single thing you don't like about it, it means you're obviously just an ungreatful piece of shit that should do them a favor and go crawl off and die somewhere and leave it to the people who know enough to respect the country as the benevolent and unfallible protectors of everything that's good and right and just in the world and that the rest of the world disagrees because they're just jealous or whatever bullshit they decide to spew at whoever had the audacity to speak negatively about their country.

And it wasn't "You're either with us, or against us" it was "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists."

Face it, America teaches its citizens one thing above all: how to be good little consumers/workers and do and believe what they're told to do and believe.
Face it, you're one of the brainwashed "elite" who know so much fucking better than the rest of us what we should believe and how our lives should be run. We should all just proclaim you supreme leader and bow and scrape at every opportunity. Give us the benefit of your infinite wisdom, oh Great Leader! Tell us how we should believe! Lead us in your paths of double-think that we shall dwell in Hollywierd forever!

Why is it that far right Republicans don't get mainstream America? WTF is up with this drive to put our knuckles back on the ground in the form of teaching the fundamentally flawed concept of creation in schools instead of the proven fact of evolution?

Evolution is not proven fact. It has evidence, so does creationism. Leave them alone.

Evolution is not proven fact. It has evidence, so does creationism. Leave them alone.

You're making me laugh. Creationism is not credible science - not by any scientific standard. There are no published, peer reviewed creationism studies that are credible in today's scientific world.

None.

Evolution is a proven theory - well proven, over and over again. To replace it, you would need to:

a) completely disprove evolution
b) prove creationism through a number of studies that interconnect and reinforce each other to the same extent that evolution is supported today

You're not going to be able to get over criteria (a).

As I said before, gravity is a law (unless you think it isn't "a description of a natural phenomenon or principle that invariably holds true under specific conditions and will occur under certain circumstances").

Clearly this gentleman has never studied physics.

Clearly this gentleman has never studied physics.

Yes, it's frustrating to argue with people who want to redefine science before attacking it.

Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation had three basic flaws:

1. It gave the wrong prediction for the precession of the perihelion of Mercury's orbit. Mercury's orbit is elliptical, as predicted by Newton's theory of gravity, but the ellipse doesn't stay in precisely the same place all the time. It precesses, which is to say that as Mercury orbits the sun, the entire ellipse rotates about the focal point (i.e. the sun) as shown in the Figure below. This precession is very small; only 570 seconds of arc per century. A second of arc is 1/360 of a degree. Most of this precession could be understood in the context of Newton's theory of gravity by taking into account perturbations of the orbit due to the presence of other planets. However, once this was done, there still remained a discrepancy of about 40 seconds of arc per century between the prediction, and the observed value. This discrepancy was a complete mystery to scientists at the turn of the century. They even went as far as postulating the existence of an unseen planet (Vulcan) on the far side of the Sun in order to explain it. It was not until Einstein published his work on the general theory of relativity that the perihelion shift of Mercury was truly understood.
2. It did not explain why the gravitational force on an object was proportional to its inertial mass. In other words it did not explain why gravitational acceleration is independent of the mass or composition of an object.
3. It was inconsistent with the Special Theory of Relativity. That is, if an instantaneous force of gravitational attraction exists between two objects then information about the location of one object would be transmitted to another object instantaneously by changes in the gravitational force. Thus it would be possible to send information faster than the speed of light.

Daistallia seems to be stuck back with Newton.

The more massive the object, the deeper the gravitational well, and the more curved space becomes. Gravity is an effect that we see in areas where spacetime is curved or distorted by a mass.

Einstein's General Theory of Relativity did away with all three of the above problems, and at the same time it radically altered physicists' view of the Universe. The main features of General Relativity are:

1. Space and space-time are not rigid arenas in which events take place. They have form and structure which are influenced by the matter and energy content of the universe.
2. Matter and energy tell space (and space-time) how to curve.
3. Space tells matter how to move. In particular small objects travel along the straightest possible lines in curved space (space-time). (Note the above descriptions of General Relativity are due to John Wheeler.)
In curved space the rules of Euclidean geometry are changed. Parallel lines can meet, and the sum of the angles in a triangle can be more, or less than 180 degrees, depending on how space is curved. Einstein's theory gave a correct prediction for the perihelion shift of Mercury. It also explained why objects fall independent of their mass: they all follow the same straightest possible line in curved space-time. Finally, in Einstein's theory the instantaneous gravitational force is replaced by the curvature of spacetime. Moving a mass causes ripples to form in this curvature, and these ripples travel with the same speed as light. Thus, a distant mass would not feel any instantaneous change in the gravitational force, and special relativity is not violated.

Alright, I conceed.

creationism is an utter joke in all its forms, its jacked up to be a genuine scientific theory when actually its following consists of a group of morons without the slightest hint of logical thought, causality just doesnt seem to matter to you guys. There isn't a single credable scientist who supports creationism .... FACT.

They call their bullshit science
like the words could give them cred.
If those bitches be scientists
then you can cap me in the head.
--MC Hawking.

See this is why I hate the right, the utter hypocracy, first you say the government has control over your body, then you want to government to stop treating people like babies, both ideas are utterly insane.

You're just jealous that you don't have a skill at doublethink that would make Winston Smith cry like the republican voters do.

# Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you�re a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

# The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

# Government should relax regulation of Big Business and Big Money but crack down on individuals who use marijuana to relieve the pain of illness.

# Standing Tall for America means firing your workers and moving their jobs to India.

# A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

# Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

# The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.

# Group sex and drug use are degenerate sins unless you someday run for governor of California as a Republican.

# If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won�t have sex.

# A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

# HMOs and insurance companies have the interest of the public at heart.

# Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

# Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.

# Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

# A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

# Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

# The public has a right to know about Hillary�s cattle trades, but George Bush�s driving record is none of our business.

# You support states rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have a right to adopt.

# What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the 80s is irrelevant.

# Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

I'm one of the most "Far Right" people I know. I believe in little or no government, large and small corporations, Civil Rights up the wazoo. I think evolution should be taught in public/private schools, and creationism should be taught in Sunday schools. I believe in the 2nd amendment, and am against gun control. I'm also against anything remotely close to a police state which is what seems to be happening to America. The wool is being pulled over our eyes to the hate, violence, and control that our government has instigated and propagated within our own borders.

The ultimate in false dichotomies. Us vs. Them. Religion teaches it, Governments condone it. We are all human, can't we get along long enough to bring down corruption where it stands and live in relative peace?

Ahh, gotta love how hateful and stupid Europeans on both sides get when you start talking about the right this or the left that. You've also gotta love the blind socialists who believe Europe is so utterly perfect, that if you mention a single thing you don't like about it, it means you're obviously just an uneducated piece of shit that should do them a favor and go crawl off and die somewhere and leave it to the people who know enough to respect the Europeans as the benevolent and unfallible protectors of everything that's good and right and just in the world and that the rest of the world disagrees because they're just jealous or whatever bullshit they decide to spew at whoever had the audacity to speak negatively about Europe.

And it wasn't "You're either with us, or against us" it was "You're either a European or you're shit."

Face it, Europe teaches its citizens one thing above all: how to be good little consumers/workers and do and believe what they're told to do and believe.

I enjoyed this reversal because it rang so much more true than the original post.
They are basically cowardly, psuedo intellectual, elitist snobs. Luckily right now,its in fashion to bash anything American.

I'm one of the most "Far Right" people I know. I believe in little or no government, large and small corporations, Civil Rights up the wazoo. I think evolution should be taught in public/private schools, and creationism should be taught in Sunday schools. I believe in the 2nd amendment, and am against gun control. I'm also against anything remotely close to a police state which is what seems to be happening to America. The wool is being pulled over our eyes to the hate, violence, and control that our government has instigated and propagated within our own borders.

The ultimate in false dichotomies. Us vs. Them. Religion teaches it, Governments condone it. We are all human, can't we get along long enough to bring down corruption where it stands and live in relative peace?

I think we do live in relative peace. But it seems like there is always someone out there trying to stir up emotions.

I'm one of the most "Far Right" people I know. I believe in little or no government, large and small corporations, Civil Rights up the wazoo. I think evolution should be taught in public/private schools, and creationism should be taught in Sunday schools. I believe in the 2nd amendment, and am against gun control. I'm also against anything remotely close to a police state which is what seems to be happening to America. The wool is being pulled over our eyes to the hate, violence, and control that our government has instigated and propagated within our own borders.

The ultimate in false dichotomies. Us vs. Them. Religion teaches it, Governments condone it. We are all human, can't we get along long enough to bring down corruption where it stands and live in relative peace?

Well put. I never considered myself Far Right per say, but your beliefs certainly rang true with me.

See this is why I hate the right, the utter hypocracy, first you say the government has control over your body, then you want to government to stop treating people like babies, both ideas are utterly insane.
Um, no, both are perfect examples of expecting someone to take responsibility for their own actions and circumstances.

creationism is an utter joke in all its forms, its jacked up to be a genuine scientific theory when actually its following consists of a group of morons without the slightest hint of logical thought, causality just doesnt seem to matter to you guys. There isn't a single credable scientist who supports creationism .... FACT.
You really don't know the difference between fact and opinion. Maybe my 3rd grade son can explain it for you sometime. They are currently learning that in his class. Let's not forget scientists once believed the earth was made of the elements, earth, air, fire and water. Just because they all agreed and had their 'proof' didn't make it right. I believe in evolution, but am open minded enough to consider intelligent design. There are too many unanswered, such as...
Why are there several species who adapted the ability of flight, swimming, web spinning, sonar and other special abilities, but only one developed intellect, only one developed complex language and only one developed complex tool use. Oddly the odds are even more astounding to consider it was the same solitary species that developed these unique traits. The theory of evolution does not account for the uniqueness which is human. Other species should share these advantages in abundance, yet they do not. I don't know why, but I am not so closed minded as to discount all possibilities.

Face it, you're one of the brainwashed "elite" who know so much fucking better than the rest of us what we should believe and how our lives should be run.
Why do you call everyone you disagree with "elite"?

I enjoyed this reversal because it rang so much more true than the original post.
They are basically cowardly, psuedo intellectual, elitist snobs. Luckily right now,its in fashion to bash anything American.
How are European supremacists any more elitist than American supremacists?

Um, no, both are perfect examples of expecting someone to take responsibility for their own actions and circumstances.
I agree with this in regard to social welfare, but since when is it the government's place to expecting someone to take responsibility for having sex which results in pregnancy? It's not as if legalised abortion costs the government money, whereas social welfare does.

yer both wronge! go totalitarianism!

but only one developed intellect,
Developed as in what?

War, homosexuality, tool use, self-awarness, and even lying are not uniquely human.

only one developed complex language

Untill you can communicate with the other species we really can't judge. The fact became top dog makes it easy to define the rules for judgement.

Communication doesn't always need to be complex.

and only one developed complex tool use.

Well that is a change in a definition. They once said humans only practiced tool use. Now that others have shown the ability; it's now complex tool use. ;)


Oddly the odds are even more astounding to consider it was the same solitary species that developed these unique traits. The theory of evolution does not account for the uniqueness which is human. Other species should share these advantages in abundance, yet they do not. I don't know why, but I am not so closed minded as to discount all possibilities.

It's kind of hard to develope when humans are wiping you out. All apes are endangered and many monkey species are as well.

Evolution is supposed to explain the process. Not define.

Both creationism and evolution should be taught; and after that it should be up to the one learning to decide what they believe. And a Judeo-Christian creationism doesn't have to be taught- just that Someone or something created the universe.


Evolution has factual evidence behind it. It is the most supported theory in all of science and is the basis of biology as well as a near-requisite for psychology, anthropology, and philosophy. Creationism has no evidence, no research. It is a pure guess.
There is every reason for evolution to be taught in schools. There is no reason to teach creationism. Schools should be teaching scientific fact, not blind guesses.

Let's not forget scientists once believed the earth was made of the elements, earth, air, fire and water. Just because they all agreed and had their 'proof' didn't make it right.

and you know who proved those scientific theories to be false? here's a hint: it wasn't a pile of creationists. that's right, it was SCIENTISTS.

I believe in evolution, but am open minded enough to consider intelligent design. There are too many unanswered, such as...

Why are there several species who adapted the ability of flight, swimming, web spinning, sonar and other special abilities, but only one developed intellect, only one developed complex language and only one developed complex tool use.

well, for one thing, several species have complex language, and several have complex too use. however, the answer to your question is (in a word) NICHE. human beings fill a particular niche, one in which development of consciousness was favored by selection. human beings can't glow in the dark or chew through a femur, even though plenty of other life forms can, because the human environmental niche did not encourage the development and refinement of such traits.

selection doesn't work by looking waaaaaaaaaaay down the evolutionary road and then aim at making some perfect final product; selection works in the now. it shapes what it has in the present. the sum of thousands of years of "in the now" influences will lead in different directions for different creatures in different environments.


Oddly the odds are even more astounding to consider it was the same solitary species that developed these unique traits. The theory of evolution does not account for the uniqueness which is human.

another friendly hint: just because you don't understand how evolution explains something does not mean that evolutionary theory doesn't explain that thing. the theory of evolution does, in fact, very clearly assemble a variety of evidence into a viable model for how and why species such as humans differentiated as they did. you may not know about that evidence, and you obviously aren't interested enough to have made any attempt to look into it, but that doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.


Other species should share these advantages in abundance, yet they do not. I don't know why, but I am not so closed minded as to discount all possibilities.
yet you are close minded enough not to have made any serious attempt to answer those questions. i can say that with absolute confidence because i managed to ask, probe, and receive solid answers for all those questions before i graduated middle school...and i'm not terribly bright, all things considered. if you wanted answers you could find them with no trouble at all. the fact that you have not done so does not reflect at all upon the actual theory of evolution, only upon your personal disinterest in expanding your knowledge and understanding of the world.

a little more evidence of how far outside the mainstream the righties really are, courtesy of DailyKos:

Poll on Terry Shiavo case
ABC News (PDF). 3/20. MoE 4.5% (No trend lines.)

Removal of feeding tube

Support 63
Oppose 28

Federal Intervention

Support 35
Oppose 60

Appropriate for Congress to get involved?

Appropriate 27
Not Appropriate 70

Reason political leaders are trying to keep Shiavo alive

Concern about Shiavo 19
Political Advantage 67

Even among evangelicals, 46 percent support removal of the feeding tube, as opposed to 44 percent who oppose.

Polls are bullshit. Never trust them.

Creationists are Scientists who lie to everyone so that the bible can be proven true.

By the way, if anyone here hasn't heard of Arumentum Ad Homenum, I'll speel it out for you: It's insulting your opponent in an arguement for no reason other than to put them down. In this case, it's Americans calling everyone else "Elite snobs" and everyone else calling americans "rednecks". IT's irrelevant, so stop doing it and try keeping this arguemnt an arguement and not just a bunch of put down ok?

I find it funny how you guys (being americans) automatically assume that anyone not american here is european. Forgetting about Canada, once again. We really are nothing more than your supply of lumber and Cigars aren't we?
Oh wait, you've banned our lumber! Gee thanks, I guess we really ought to thanks our neighbours down south for bossing us around and thanking us by cutting our trade off!

Face it, in all your blind patriotism and hate of nondemocracies, you've alienated your allies, got the people who hated you to hate you even more, gotten China rich and fat and what the hell, You're even getting the classic laid-back lassez-faire Canadian to to hate the US and all it stands for.

Congratulations!

Well, here's my summation of why the US is now viewed with distrust or hatred in so many places. It decided to throw it's weight around. Look at the track record:
1) The US has a FREE TRADE AGREEMENT with Canada. So far, you've managed to make the headlines, oh, at least once a week up here, with BANNING our exports. Now, some of these make sense, i.e. cattle after we got a case of mad cow. But the bans don't lift, even after there is no longer a danger (in cases where there was one in the first place).

2) The US has INVADED A SOUGVRIN NATION. The diplomatic root was passed by, and you just dropped troops in. Beyond that, you LIED to the rest of the world. And when France stands up to you, pointing out what proved to be true, that YOU HAD NO PROOF, suddenly they became public enemy #1.

3) The US HAS THE WORLDS LARGEST N/C/B ARSONAL and yet they claim this as ground for attacking other countries. What about Briton? They have nukes. What difference does it make? Better send in the troops! Invade England!

4) I KNOW I'll be called an elitist for this, but it has to be said... The average American is in general viewed as being less aware of the world. A smash hit comedy up here was "Talking to Americans" where the host traveled the states asking people on the streets, in UNIVERSITIES, & in CONGRESS simple questions about Canada, while pretending to be with a Canadian news network. A state governor congratulated us on "our national Igloo". A geographic student at Harvard signed a petition to ban the "Saskatchewan seal hunt" (Saskatchewan is land locked, FYI). George W. Bush, President of the United States of America, Thanked "Jean Poutine, Prime Minister of Canada" for his support in the election (Poutine is a dish common through out Canada - French Fries with cheese curds and gravy). You get the idea. Pretty funny show actually. You can probably find it online somewhere.

argh, It won't let me edit my post!

hello to all pro-creationists out there:

i dont care if u believe in creationism. thats cool. however it has no right at all to compete with evolution in public schools. why? becuase evolution is proven there is research behind it.

in science, a theory is something that has provable data behind it. creationism is not one of these. it is a facet of religion, wich is not to be taught at school, but at a place of worship or whatever.

evolution. it is based in science. there is not a scientist in the world that does not support evolution. while scienctists may argue were exactly an animal evolved, ie how it evolved, there is no question at all as to whether or not it works.

lets consider for a moment evolution isnt a theory, just an unproven hypothesis. everything biology has ever given us pretty much goes down the toilet. unfortunatley, we have used the information given to us indirectly from evolution to make things like drugs, and cure disease. creationism gives us none of this.

so, i get to my point wich is: in school, we teach things that are the best explanation of why things are. not facts, because in reality, we dont have a lot of those. the best explanation.( and i got news for u, it works. it has worked. it will continue to work and make mankind better.)
this is so kids will have a reliable foundation to build their carreers on. if we taught them creationism, it wouldnt b a lie, its just contradicts everything about everything we no. if someone wants to learn creationism, open a bible and do it. just dont tell me its a fact

sorry for the non sequiter. it just seemed like an approriate thread

Developed as in what?

War, homosexuality, tool use, self-awarness, and even lying are not uniquely human.



I'm not disagreeing with your post or anything. I just want to know what other species have had wars? Do you mean like the long running cats vs. dog fued? Or the great civil war of the pacific ocean between the dolphins and the killer whales?

:p

That's why it's the Law of gravity; and the theory of evolution.

Nice try, though.


People who dont know much about science or english often think that the commonly used phrase "law of gravity" means that gravity is something besides a scientific theory. They're wrong.

What people refer to in passing as the "law of gravity" is actually the Theory of Universal Gravitation.

It stands on the same merits as the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection.

(1) Some conservative ideas DO make more sense than liberal ideas. It is partly the refusal of the left to come to terms with the fall of Communism (and the declining fortunes of Socialist states) that has caused the nation to shift right.

(2) The U.S. has ALWAYS been more conservative than you may think - especially in economics.



Erm... Just thought I'd make a couple corrections.

1) Communism fell... That doesn't say anything about socialism. Stop associating the two. They are radically different. A communist is a totalitarian. A socialist is not.

2) Yes... We continue to cling to a three-hundred year old ill-thought out idea... That's a good thing?

Ahh, gotta love how hateful and stupid Europeans on both sides get when you start talking about the right this or the left that. You've also gotta love the blind socialists who believe Europe is so utterly perfect, that if you mention a single thing you don't like about it, it means you're obviously just an uneducated piece of shit that should do them a favor and go crawl off and die somewhere and leave it to the people who know enough to respect the Europeans as the benevolent and unfallible protectors of everything that's good and right and just in the world and that the rest of the world disagrees because they're just jealous or whatever bullshit they decide to spew at whoever had the audacity to speak negatively about Europe.

And it wasn't "You're either with us, or against us" it was "You're either a European or you're shit."

Face it, Europe teaches its citizens one thing above all: how to be good little consumers/workers and do and believe what they're told to do and believe.
Haha, like I give a damn about Europe. Was that suppose to be some kind of insult where you ignorantly assumed I was European and thought I'd be offended? Hateful, stupid, and unoriginal, you've sure got a lot going for you from what I can tell by this and many other posts from you.
Face it, you're one of the brainwashed "elite" who know so much fucking better than the rest of us what we should believe and how our lives should be run. We should all just proclaim you supreme leader and bow and scrape at every opportunity. Give us the benefit of your infinite wisdom, oh Great Leader! Tell us how we should believe! Lead us in your paths of double-think that we shall dwell in Hollywierd forever!
Believe and think whatever you want, just stop using those opinions and beliefs to decide how everyone else should live their own lives. I'm sick of people in this country being unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives and running to the government whining to make everything better by making personal decisions for everyone.

So nice of you two to so vividly illustrate my point for me. :D

I'm not disagreeing with your post or anything. I just want to know what other species have had wars? Do you mean like the long running cats vs. dog fued? Or the great civil war of the pacific ocean between the dolphins and the killer whales?

:p

Ants and several species of Apes have wars, though the apes tend to have little more than protracted animosities punctuated by small violent battles. War, Slavery, Raiding; they do it all. Pretty interesting stuff.

You really don't know the difference between fact and opinion. Maybe my 3rd grade son can explain it for you sometime. They are currently learning that in his class. Let's not forget scientists once believed the earth was made of the elements, earth, air, fire and water. Just because they all agreed and had their 'proof' didn't make it right. I believe in evolution, but am open minded enough to consider intelligent design. There are too many unanswered, such as...
Why are there several species who adapted the ability of flight, swimming, web spinning, sonar and other special abilities, but only one developed intellect, only one developed complex language and only one developed complex tool use. Oddly the odds are even more astounding to consider it was the same solitary species that developed these unique traits. The theory of evolution does not account for the uniqueness which is human. Other species should share these advantages in abundance, yet they do not. I don't know why, but I am not so closed minded as to discount all possibilities.

And as you would know if you took...well shit any biology related class:
scavengers (roughly between hyenas and vultures, although closer to vultures) --> slightly improved brain size, just to stay alive ------> Predators --> larger brains, for calculation

Oh and look at this. *wiggles thumb* A little thing called the opposable thumb, genius. *gasp* ASTOUNDING! *wiggles thumb again for emphasis*

opposable thumb --> tool makers --> larger brains AND imagination / ability to form a mental picture (it's hard to make any kind of advanced tool without knowing what you want and how you're going to do it)

The predatory aspects combined with opposable thumb
-----------------------------------------> Us.

After all that I will tell you: I do believe in intelligent design. But your argument is WAY off, and I do NOT believe that creationism should be taught in school.

After all that I will tell you: I do believe in intelligent design. But your argument is WAY off, and I do NOT believe that creationism should be taught in school.
Where is it you think I said it should be? I only suggested it should not be discounted in schools. The one fact of science is that it will never be able to fully answer everything. For each step that is made, other mysteries evolve. Intelligent design is a viable option for those willing to consider it where knowledge and evidence end. For those who are unwilling - they are closed minded. As hostile as you are I would presume you fall into the latter category.

1) Communism fell... That doesn't say anything about socialism. Stop associating the two. They are radically different. A communist is a totalitarian. A socialist is not.
Wrong.
You are confusing Stalinism with all other communism.

I've heard a lot of whining an boo hoo-ing about how the Far Left is "out of step with mainstream America". Not to mention the fact that these words "out of step" and "mainstream America" are straight out of the Newt Gingrich play book on framing the argument using certain key words, but nevermend.

My point is this: If you think that the Far Left is out of step, take a look at the Far Right:

Why is it that far right Republicans don't get mainstream America? WTF is up ...

[ignorant rant snip]

I could go on and on until the non existent rapture spirits me away, but I'm sure this is enough to send the resident members of the righwing echo chamber into a white froth spitting frenzy about how the fact that I merely wish to be left alone to enjoy my American freedoms without governmental interference is somehow wrong, misguided, and unAmerican.....
So it is only right for you to be allowed an opinion, and your ideas should be the only allowed. Who is the ignorant bigot after all that? You.

Where is it you think I said it should be? I only suggested it should not be discounted in schools.

I was stating my beliefs, not counters to your own.

The one fact of science is that it will never be able to fully answer everything. For each step that is made, other mysteries evolve. Intelligent design is a viable option for those willing to consider it where knowledge and evidence end. For those who are unwilling - they are closed minded. As hostile as you are I would presume you fall into the latter category.

Haha if you knew me you'd be chewing on your foot right now.


I'm open to new theories, but if they are not backed with a single shred of evidence then they're hypotheses. Not theories. Know the difference.

I would much rather have the far right in charge of my country than the far left aka greenys etc, I mean at least after fifty years or more so, you would still at least have a country.
Think about it. War comes along as it always does, the far right arm the nation and blow the invaders away, the far left lets them in and trys to broker a peace deal at any price, this is ended abruptly with a few gun shots and promises of slavery for you and your offsprings offsping. As much as I hate extremism of any sort, Id take the far right any day, at least they have some common sense.
The far left are seriously deluded about alot of things, drugfucked whacos .

I would much rather have the far right in charge of my country than the far left aka greenys etc, I mean at least after fifty years or more so, you would still at least have a country.
Think about it. War comes along as it always does, the far right arm the nation and blow the invaders away, the far left lets them in and trys to broker a peace deal at any price, this is ended abruptly with a few gun shots and promises of slavery for you and your offsprings offsping. As much as I hate extremism of any sort, Id take the far right any day, at least they have some common sense.
The far left are seriously deluded about alot of things, drugfucked whacos .
Well now the far right seem to start the wars, blow everyone away and then ruin there own country. Hey your Georgies the one sniffin down crack.

Well now the far right seem to start the wars, blow everyone away and then ruin there own country. Hey your Georgies the one sniffin down crack.

Im no fan of Bush either, and it was coke he got busted for I think.
Of course the far right starts wars, usually for a good reason, kick the economy along etc the point here is, if my own country was threatened, regardless of whether we started it or not, I would rather have a government that doesnt pussyfoot around like an idiotic left government would.

Im no fan of Bush either, and it was coke he got busted for I think.
Of course the far right starts wars, usually for a good reason, kick the economy along etc the point here is, if my own country was threatened, regardless of whether we started it or not, I would rather have a government that doesnt pussyfoot around like an idiotic left government would.

Kick the economy along...is a reason to kill thousands of people. *my mouth honestly dropped*

Probably because it's the far right...

Kick the economy along...is a reason to kill thousands of people. *my mouth honestly dropped*

Well thats what war does, at least someones benefitting.
Did you know WW2 was pretty much engineered by America to pull them out of the economic slump they were in.
Where do you think Hitler got all his steel from, and the Yanks knew the Japs were going to hit Pearl Harbour too.
WW2 was good for America and put them where they are now, on top. Roosevelt knew this, it was part of his 'New Deal' :) sorry your probably way too young for this stuff, but it created the world your in now.

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.

And a child has every right to practice his religion wherver he wants. Seperation of church and state was made to protect religion and government from one another; not so one could dictate what the other does. If I wanna pray in school, then God damnit I'm gonna pray in school.

but as a child gets religion forced on them at birth by crazy religious parents, perhaps it should be allowed that we teach soviet russias version of history too at the expense of actual history if a handfull of devout stalinist want it, as that has just as much credibility as religions creationist theory.

also can muslims get out a prayer mat? can satanists sacrifice a chicken (sorry for that possible misrepresentation there, muslims and satanists)? its a theory in the way that all scientific fact starts out as a theory, the theory the earth goes round the sun for example, which the church also tried to deny. good old church. always got our interests at heart, y'know?

also can muslims get out a prayer mat?

Around here, in the name of political correctness, and in a gesture aimed at appeasing a group out of fear that "well, you know, the reason they did 9-11 was because we oppressed them", Muslims in Montgomery County, Maryland get a prayer room in every public school.

At the same time, Jewish and Christian children are forbidden to pray together, even together over lunch. Prayer must be singly and in complete silence. Except for Muslims.

Which is why I moved to Virginia.

"Im no fan of Bush either, and it was coke he got busted for I think.
Of course the far right starts wars, usually for a good reason, kick the economy along etc the point here is, if my own country was threatened, regardless of whether we started it or not, I would rather have a government that doesnt pussyfoot around like an idiotic left government would."

pussyfoot as in "aim at military installations as opposed to hospitals" for example? or pussyfoot as in "not engineer a whole big lie about how their country is threatened so they can go and bomb a load of children"? frankly, if my country was threatened i would blame the right wing government in power who had made the entire world hate us by screwing up other peoples countries for a small amount of illegal cash. hell, if it were merely threatened, i would rather talk to the country threatening us and reach a compromise than bomb them into little bits and get their children to hate us so we can relive it all over again in about 25 years.

idiotic hick rightwing governments never solved anything.

Around here, in the name of political correctness, and in a gesture aimed at appeasing a group out of fear that "well, you know, the reason they did 9-11 was because we oppressed them", Muslims in Montgomery County, Maryland get a prayer room in every public school.

At the same time, Jewish and Christian children are forbidden to pray together, even together over lunch. Prayer must be singly and in complete silence. Except for Muslims.

Which is why I moved to Virginia.


thats what happens when you let any religion get anything in school. ban the lot of them. they are all just lies anyway.

The muslims with the exception of some Asian countrys like China, will take over this planet within a hundred years, their more aggressive and their women breed alot more than westerners, who are pathetic at having kids, the blacks are dying out from war famine and disease not to mention ethnic cleansing, which leaves the muslims and the asians and a few polynesians.
Not racism just logic.

The Far Right isn't out of step really, just accentuates those values which many Americans agree with and espounge. This thread is pointless, it's a no-brainer question.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the far right is in step wiht mainstream america and america is just retarded, but thats ony when I watch corprate owned hack tv where they have a bunch of bourjoise pig fuckers treating us like were retarded enough to actually buy their BS. The reason the far right is so out of touch is that they can get away with it by controlling the media and convincing us that we the sane are also the few whil the majority of america sits in front of their sets thinking "the rest of my country can't really be this fucking stup can they?" the answer is no. Most conservatives I talk to arent even stupid, just pumped full of lazy hack media half assed information. but the so are most democrats :-( To answer the question the far right is inbred and comes from areas in the south where educationis abismal

Sometimes I get the feeling that the far right is in step wiht mainstream america and america is just retarded, but thats ony when I watch corprate owned hack tv where they have a bunch of bourjoise pig fuckers treating us like were retarded enough to actually buy their BS. The reason the far right is so out of touch is that they can get away with it by controlling the media and convincing us that we the sane are also the few whil the majority of america sits in front of their sets thinking "the rest of my country can't really be this fucking stup can they?" the answer is no. Most conservatives I talk to arent even stupid, just pumped full of lazy hack media half assed information. but the so are most democrats :-( To answer the question the far right is inbred and comes from areas in the south where educationis abismal


Not inbred, don't come from the South, and my education is better than most. Denigrating the ideas of the Republicans by claiming that those who hold them are inbred, uneducated, and from a particular area of the country is ignoring the facts.

Most of the country outside of a few urban centers is Republican.
We're just as well educated.
We're not stupid.

I'm sure this has been pointed out already, but practically by definition the 'far' of any political spectrum will not be in synch with the 'mainstream.'

But really what the hell is "mainstream" anyway?

I'm sure this has been pointed out already, but practically by definition the 'far' of any political spectrum will not be in synch with the 'mainstream.'

But really what the hell is "mainstream" anyway?
quite.
this may be of interest (re: the "mainstream"): http://www.moral-politics.com/xpolitics.aspx?menu=Home&action=Distribution&choice=United%20States

http://www.moral-politics.com/xpolitics.aspx?menu=Home&action=Distribution&choice=United%20Kingdom

And truly, WTF is up with talking about "making government so small you could drown it in a bathtub" whilst trying to expand the powers of the federal government to Orwellian proportions in the form of trying to subpoena people's medical records, cutting down on and limiting the rights of citizens to not have to endure unwarranted searches of person or property, infringing upon the rights of the free press by sending out prepackaged "news" stories that are little more than pro Administration propaganda, trying to deter protests by herding protesters into predetermined "protest zones" miles away from where the protest could actually do some good...

The people who want to take away the power of government are not the ones who want the individual to be free to make his own choices, that's why it's both the anti homosexuality party and the pro corporate deregulation party. They're also the ones who bitch and moan about government spending and taxes, even though they rack up huge debts with no way to pay them.

The people who want to shrink government don't want government to be able to protect people, they don't give a damn about it regulating them. Their position is that if the government runs up massive debts then it won't be able to fund other programs like education, medicare, and social security. This will create a criminal class which will terrorise the rest of the country into signing away it's freedom.

If you take them at their word then their method of reigning in government spending is like if I got into an argument with my wife because she wanted to buy an expensive livingroom furniture set. So in order to make sure that she doesn't waste our money on such an extravagence I go to the bank and withdraw all our money and use it to hire a demolition crew to wreck the living room. Then I max out all the credit cards hiring a contractor to rebuild the living room. Then when my wife brings up the topic of new furniture I say "honey, we don't have any money to buy furniture, we have to pay off the credit cards." If they're really so damn "fiscally conservative" then why are they putting us in so much debt?

Their approach to

I'm not disagreeing with your post or anything. I just want to know what other species have had wars? Do you mean like the long running cats vs. dog fued? Or the great civil war of the pacific ocean between the dolphins and the killer whales?

:p

Most social carniverous animals engage in war like behavior on a scale similar to that of neo-lithic humans. Lion prides and hyena packs, chimpanzee troupes, and wolf packs, all fight each other over territory in organized battles.

Killer whales organize themselves differently by specializing according to families. Pods of killer whales will specialize in hunting fish, while another pod in the same waters will specialize in seals. By reducing competition this way they no longer compete, and don't even interbreed, though they are genetically the same species.

< MAJOR snip >
I could go on and on until the non existent rapture spirits me away, but I'm sure this is enough to send the resident members of the righwing echo chamber into a white froth spitting frenzy about how the fact that I merely wish to be left alone to enjoy my American freedoms without governmental interference is somehow wrong, misguided, and unAmerican.....
Nice rant. :rolleyes:

I've heard a lot of whining an boo hoo-ing about how the Far Left is "out of step with mainstream America". Not to mention the fact that these words "out of step" and "mainstream America" are straight out of the Newt Gingrich play book on framing the argument using certain key words, but nevermend.

My point is this: If you think that the Far Left is out of step, take a look at the Far Right:

Why is it that far right Republicans don't get mainstream America? WTF is up with this drive to put our knuckles back on the ground in the form of teaching the fundamentally flawed concept of creation in schools instead of the proven fact of evolution?

Whats up with far right Republicans trying to take a peek into everyone's bedroom for chrissakes? Wtf is up with trying to tell adults of sound mind that they can't choose their time to check out of this roach motel and requiring that they suffer painfully through the entire course of their illness until they die?

Why do those on the Far Right want total access to what goes on inside MY womb? And truly, WTF is up with talking about "making government so small you could drown it in a bathtub" whilst trying to expand the powers of the federal government to Orwellian proportions in the form of trying to subpoena people's medical records, cutting down on and limiting the rights of citizens to not have to endure unwarranted searches of person or property, infringing upon the rights of the free press by sending out prepackaged "news" stories that are little more than pro Administration propaganda, trying to deter protests by herding protesters into predetermined "protest zones" miles away from where the protest could actually do some good...

You know, I'm left to believe that this whole Far Right drive to cut down on the size of the federal government is really nothing more than a ploy to make it easier for big business to jump through a myriad of tax loopholes while making it harder for the ordinary citizen to protest the export of his job to a foreign country, or to speak out about the dismantling of the social structure that would have taken care of him as a senior, or to decry unnecessary war that his tax dollars are going towards prolonging......

And what is up with the Far Right thinking it's just a stellar idea to ship your job off to China, not only leaving you without an income, but also helping to turn China into one of the most competitive and dangerous rising industrial nations on the planet?? Only a moron thinks that an entire nation can function economically without an industrial base. China is laughing all the way to the bank at the nation of American burger flippers, waiters, and janitors.

WTF is up with the Far Right wanting to dismantle the Geneva Convention and ship low or no intelligence value prisoners off to countries that engage in torture? So now we're also outsourcing torture? My, the rightwing sure has it's thumb in EVERY pie, doesn't it. Ghost detainees? Thats an American value?? I don't think so...

Abu Ghraib=college hazing? Sorry Rush, try again....thats what happens when you take enough pills to kill a clydesdale.

You know, back in the day there was a moderate Rupublican named Dwight D. Eisenhower who said:



Today, the Far Right and their army of stooge pundits would call this man a leftist traitor. I call him an American. Here's your disconnect, Far Right. This is EXACTLY where you lose "mainstream" America, because most of us out here call this man an American, and call what he's saying here, COMMON F'ING SENSE!! Oh but not the Bush Davidians of the Far Right. To them, any rebuttal of the Lord Bush's word is grounds for death by firing squad. An American value? You tell me..

And with all the rightwing talk about state's rights, John,"let me get right up in your business" Ashcroft sure found it necessary to futz around with every state's rights issue he could get his grubby little Crisco stained fingers on...

Prayer in schools? Not if your paying for it with MY tax dollars! You want your kid to pray in school? Send him to a parochial school. Leave the schools funded with taxpayer (people like me!) dollars alone!

I could go on and on until the non existent rapture spirits me away, but I'm sure this is enough to send the resident members of the righwing echo chamber into a white froth spitting frenzy about how the fact that I merely wish to be left alone to enjoy my American freedoms without governmental interference is somehow wrong, misguided, and unAmerican.....

Fundamentalism, whether far right or far left is always wrong. In order to find a solution to a nation's problems, one must try to find some middle ground. Although I am a conservative myself, (extremely fiscally conservative, moderately socially conservative) I believe that the extreme conservative ideal is somewhat flawed, and I do not ageree with loudmouthed proponents who hide behind the Bible and the Stars and Stripes. Nor do I agree with liberals who say "legalize everything" and believed problems are solved by blaming the US and throwing money at them, believing that burying a problem in greenbacks will make it disappear. Comprimise, slanted either right or left, is really the only way to solve a problem.

Get rid of the Left and all the people who support it, then we will have no more bullshit or problems in society.

Get rid of the Left and all the people who support it, then we will have no more bullshit or problems in society.

They did that. It resulted in the Holocaust and WWII. (However, the left has commited atrocities as well, so its total dominance would be equally disastrous)

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.

And a child has every right to practice his religion wherver he wants. Seperation of church and state was made to protect religion and government from one another; not so one could dictate what the other does. If I wanna pray in school, then God damnit I'm gonna pray in school.

Lol, what nonsense. The seperation of the curch and state was founded upon the principles of democracy which are by their very nature secular. Evolution is taught to children because, warts and all it is logical and has explained how the human race came into being. To condition children into believing creationism is as fundamentalist as it is foolish.

I didn't read every post on the thread but I'm posting anyway. So sue me.

Why do those on the Far Right want total access to what goes on inside MY womb?
Because, you know, the human inside your womb can't protest if you abort it. Just one of those crazy things we do.

And what is up with the Far Right thinking it's just a stellar idea to ship your job off to China, not only leaving you without an income, but also helping to turn China into one of the most competitive and dangerous rising industrial nations on the planet?? Only a moron thinks that an entire nation can function economically without an industrial base. China is laughing all the way to the bank at the nation of American burger flippers, waiters, and janitors.

The politicians aren't shipping anything off, the corporations are. Would you like the government to start telling buisnesses where they can and can't find employees? Would you like Big Brother to start running the economy? I thought the Left (for lack of a better term) is all about globalization. This is the logical end of global capitalism. So America's not the top dog economically speaking for a while. America's survived two big depressions. It can survive another one.

The seperation of the curch and state was founded upon the principles of democracy which are by their very nature secular. Evolution is taught to children because, warts and all it is logical and has explained how the human race came into being. To condition children into believing creationism is as fundamentalist as it is foolish.

Baloney. Democracy is not secular by its very nature. It's not religious by nature either. It just is. Deal with it and move on.
As for evolution, just present both sides warts and all and let the children decide.

They did that. It resulted in the Holocaust and WWII. (However, the left has commited atrocities as well, so its total dominance would be equally disastrous)

That was a madmans dreams, and a pogrom against certain races and peoples who didnt fit into his aryan dream, getting rid of the left in Australia and America and every other western country, wouldnt necessarily end in the same result as WW2 etc, it would strengthen us this time against the growing middle eastern threat, not to mention a possible greater one from China in the future.

I'd have to say that you probably wouldn't like Jesussaves...

That was a madmans dreams, and a pogrom against certain races and peoples who didnt fit into his aryan dream, getting rid of the left in Australia and America and every other western country, wouldnt necessarily end in the same result as WW2 etc, it would strengthen us this time against the growing middle eastern threat, not to mention a possible greater one from China in the future.

Yes, that is true. However, whenever dissent is silenced it is easy for madmen to come to power and cause great evil (look at Stalin). By heaing these voices and considering them we can fight better by avoiding mistakes, while the extremes will be visible to all and more easily prevented from harming the War on Terror.

Actually, scientists have changed the definition for theory so now evolution is a "proven fact, until otherwise noted"
Really the creationists misappropriated the scientific definition of "theory". They use that to belittle the "theory" of evolution.

My question is "why does the left think that it understands what mainstream America consists of mainly left-leaning liberals?". I think the answer is because the left mainly travels in mutual admiration societies that don't admit right-leaning thought.

Evolution is not a proven fact; it's only a theory.

And a child has every right to practice his religion wherver he wants. Seperation of church and state was made to protect religion and government from one another; not so one could dictate what the other does. If I wanna pray in school, then God damnit I'm gonna pray in school.

God; people really need to know what a theory means in SCIENCE as opposed to everyday use. In SCIENCE, a theory is something that is proved beyond a reasonable doubt and is supported by the evidence. It isn't an "idea" or something that is "only partially proved" as theory is used in everday terms.

EDIT: Ok, others already pointed this out.

I think i'm with the majority of posters here that think that really both far right and far left are out of the mainstream. This idea that we are a country divided is complete BS. I'm a political science student and most studies would show that the voting population is a bell curve with most people landing in the middle of the Righ Left controversy. This would explain the close elections most people believe or agree with parts of both sides and when it comes down to voting they just pick who supports most of their issues.

Yes, that is true. However, whenever dissent is silenced it is easy for madmen to come to power and cause great evil (look at Stalin). By heaing these voices and considering them we can fight better by avoiding mistakes, while the extremes will be visible to all and more easily prevented from harming the War on Terror.

I would have to say that this time the voices of madmen of Western society, are truly among the dissenters, as in the Left. They really cant see the forest for the trees.