NationStates Jolt Archive

Interesting text on religion and reason: excerpt from a book.

http://www.samharris.org/index.php/samharris/full-text/chapter_one/

I'm curious as to how people rationalize the disconnect between reality and religion, especially those who would be religious moderates. Since the majority of people on these boards are likely to be Christians of some sort, we will stick w/ this religion for the sake of convenience in this discussion.

Presumptive moderate view. Believes in some sections of the bible, but rejects the more conservative and obviously false or morally reprehensible statements. Ie. Believes that women are the equals of men, the universe was formed (as quoted from the aforementioned excerpt) before the Babylonians invented beer, but at the same time believes that those who don't believe in the bible and the word of their god are living an immoral life.

Here there is a disconnect between facts and logic. The [holy books] are presumed to be holy and word of god, but there are sections that are obviously deemed irrelevant if not outright false and immoral in modern times. What is difficult to understand here, is why the rest of the book is not viewed through an increased lens of skepticism when whole sections and prior moral prescriptions have been cast off as irrelevant and destructive to a healthy modern society.


Presumptive fundamentalist/literalist view: Believes in the vast majority (if not all) of the bible. Believes that the world was literally created in 6 days (though depending upon your understanding of physics, technically this is possible if you account for variations in the flow of time and the fundamental stability of what we perceive as the material of our universe and the role of dark matter and energy...but I digress...), women should be subservient to men, there are concrete moral rights and wrongs, those who do not believe should be pittied and every attempt should be made to convert them, and that fundamentally those who do not *believe* are bad persons (thought crime?).

Fundamentalists are at the very least somewhat more consistent in their views. While they assume that the word of the bible is the inerrant word of god, this means that they are necessarily restricted to a very narrow (in a tribalistic sense) set of acceptable opinions on the world around them. For a fundamentalist, it is necessarily important to believe that others who do not believe exactly as they perceive themselves to believe as hopelessly immoral and unworthy in the eyes of their god(s). This necessarily is fertile breeding ground for inter-personal and group conflict.


RULES FOR DISCUSSION: If you do not believe in anything in particular, "religious people are dumb," is NOT an appropriate response. Please respect others! This does not mean that one has to hold anyone's beliefs in high regard and necessarily respect them. The whole point of discussion is to ferret out misunderstanding. I am biased in my beliefs and such is only natural. You may bash ideas and opinions, but do not bash people. Treat others as you would wish to be treated!!

g.e.

Thats a really big post

Thats a really big post

I was bored on my lunch break...

religion or reason?

reason.

for details, see my sig

People must not like to read. Goddamn my idiocy in forgetting about average Americans' (since we seem to make up a disproportionately large population of NS users, like virtual cyber roaches, munching on the plaster of dicscarded brain farts) attention span.

What concerns me is that someone can get a book published with grammar that bad.
Diconnect is a verb. Disconnection is the noun that he should be using.

Books is presumed to be holy and word of good: You what? Get a grip on the language please.

I am not objecting to people making errors in their posts, I am objecting to this level of bad English being publishable.

Wild guess:

I would think that some don't consider Religion and Reason to be mutually exclusive.

Just a hunch there.

What concerns me is that someone can get a book published with grammar that bad.
Diconnect is a verb. Disconnection is the noun that he should be using.

Books is presumed to be holy and word of good: You what? Get a grip on the language please.

I am not objecting to people making errors in their posts, I am objecting to this level of bad English being publishable.

As specified, wrote on my lunch break. 30 minutes. (more than half I spent reading and eating.) So maybe about 5-10 minutes most at typing.

And for waht it's worth Disconnect IS a noun as well.

Main Entry: 2disconnect
Function: noun
: a lack of or break in connection, consistency, or agreement

If you doubt this go to www.m-w.com and check it out yourself. Now, I enjoin you to make an attempt at responding with something more than nit-picking. This isn't a grammar class. And I corrected the other error. Feel free to point out more. But if you do point them out, try not to to make mistakes like morphing 'god' into 'good' yourself. It makes you a little more credible ;)

The Egyptians invented beer, they predate Babylon's consumption of it by perhaps a thousand years.

Get your facts straight. ;)

Reason and Religion are not mutually exclusive, in all honesty "Higher Criticism" was just bad logic to begin with.

As specified, wrote on my lunch break. 30 minutes. (more than half I spent reading and eating.) So maybe about 5-10 minutes most at typing.

And for waht it's worth Disconnect IS a noun as well.

Main Entry: 2disconnect
Function: noun
: a lack of or break in connection, consistency, or agreement

If you doubt this go to www.m-w.com and check it out yourself. Now, I enjoin you to make an attempt at responding with something more than nit-picking. This isn't a grammar class. And I corrected the other error. Feel free to point out more. But if you do point them out, try not to to make mistakes like morphing 'god' into 'good' yourself. It makes you a little more credible ;)


I had assumed, as many others will also have assumed, that you had cut and paste the text. I was clear that I was not criticising bad grammar in posting in forums. I was concerned about the proofreading standards in publication. No personal criticism was intended.

EDIT:Oh, the good - god bit is simply a section I copied and pasted from your original text. I do have this problem as I keep on typing god when I mean to type good due to a dodgy keyboard. /EDIT

I accept that in US English it may be possible to use disconnect as a noun, Merrion Webster authorises this. To me, being British, it just sounds wrong. However, as it is a noun, the problem is mine.

Reason, but I don't have time to explain now.

I accept that in US English it may be possible to use disconnect as a noun, Merrion Webster authorises this. To me, being British, it just sounds wrong. However, as it is a noun, the problem is mine.

Yeah the whole Americanisms vs. Britishisms does pose a bit of a problem. We need to get together and scrap half the words in the language in my not so humble opinion. Pare down the bloated mass that is the english language, also re-write the grammatical rules such that they are consistent and consistently make sense as well as phonetic and spelling rules. Would make everything easier.

</digression>

Answer: Yes. ;)

Various people have been predicting the end of religion for a couple of hundred years now. It's not going away any time soon.

As for me, Christianity makes more sense to me as a system than anything else out there, not only scientifically, but ethically and metaphysically as well.

Reason. Screw God

Are you sure the majority of people on this board as Christian? I have seen a lot more Atheist people on here, including myself.

Religion is the opiate of the massess, it will never be extinct.

Now then, I do not believe that I have incongruities in my belief. But I should completely post it some time so that I can make sure there are no incongruities. Basically I am a mix of the two types of Christians the original poster mentioned. I am both fundemantalist and modern.

Simply:

If the Christian God is real and who he says he is, then it is completely possible for him to make whatever the frak he wants in six days.

Also, I do not think women or men are equal. We should be treated equally, but womyn are better at some things and men are better at other things.

I believe that anyone and everyone is or has lived an immoral life during sometime of their life. I know I have, I live "immorally" now and then when I just want to screw the rules.

The "bible" is the word of YHWH, yup. But I have been thinking about that, and there are some things that are not. Some stuff in there is just really really really good advice, not the word of YHWH(or Jesus). How have I come to that conclusion? (this conclusion deals with the new testament excluding the four gospels) That stuff is just one man o' god writing some advice and help to another man/woman o' god. Sure, he might have been"spirit lead" as in the H.S. was upon/in him and telling him what to write. But I think more often than not Paul, Timothy, Peter, John, and the other epistle writers prayed about what they should write and then wrote what they thought was correct to write.

I'm somewhat a pagan myself, and I see it as quite reasonable.

Also, I do not think women or men are equal. We should be treated equally, but womyn are better at some things and men are better at other things.

Do you distinguish between women and womyn?

I see most things as rationalized by both Religion and reason.

Do you distinguish between women and womyn?
no I was just to lazy to change that other e to a y.

I'm curious as to how people rationalize the disconnect between reality and religion, especially those who would be religious moderates. Since the majority of people on these boards are likely to be Christians of some sort, we will stick w/ this religion for the sake of convenience in this discussion.
Because the disconnect has nothing to do with reality. Organized religion is not about reality, it is about belief and faith. That is the rationalization.

Empiricism. How's that for a crazy answer? Then again I believe in a more Kantian perspective of reason and the senses working together.

Religion is the opiate of the massess, it will never be extinct.

Now then, I do not believe that I have incongruities in my belief. But I should completely post it some time so that I can make sure there are no incongruities. Basically I am a mix of the two types of Christians the original poster mentioned. I am both fundemantalist and modern.

Simply:

If the Christian God is real and who he says he is, then it is completely possible for him to make whatever the frak he wants in six days.

Also, I do not think women or men are equal. We should be treated equally, but womyn are better at some things and men are better at other things.

I believe that anyone and everyone is or has lived an immoral life during sometime of their life. I know I have, I live "immorally" now and then when I just want to screw the rules.

The "bible" is the word of YHWH, yup. But I have been thinking about that, and there are some things that are not. Some stuff in there is just really really really good advice, not the word of YHWH(or Jesus). How have I come to that conclusion? (this conclusion deals with the new testament excluding the four gospels) That stuff is just one man o' god writing some advice and help to another man/woman o' god. Sure, he might have been"spirit lead" as in the H.S. was upon/in him and telling him what to write. But I think more often than not Paul, Timothy, Peter, John, and the other epistle writers prayed about what they should write and then wrote what they thought was correct to write.
One of the most intelligent posts here for a while...

I'm pretty much in agreement with all that you've said.

I also think that the biggest problem today is that some people believe that Science disproves God. Fact is it doesn't, and what's more it can't. They also believe that (usually by Occam's razor) believing in God is close minded and unscientific and not the logical thing to do. Fact is, its just as logical to believe in God as it is to not! I can now pretty much out argue anyone who says that I am unscientific for not believing in God. Of course, it can go the other way too...

Reason...its not negociable.
Religion tells you what to think how to link yourself to a superior spiritual being, how to marry how to love what to do what not to do...

Religious authorities are generally hypocrites, be it rabbis archbishops mullahs ...ok ill give the dalai lama the free pass because he actually practices what he preaches

This rapper i recently discovered (and has intelligent lyrics) said that people forget that God is not religion but a spiritual bond..
Which is why i don't think reason and religion shoul conflict and why i think religions are a sack of ....

Reason...its not negociable.
Religion tells you what to think how to link yourself to a superior spiritual being, how to marry how to love what to do what not to do...
If someone/thing has to tell you how to love, then you're not doing it right.

Yep, but gays have a role ... to die and decrease the surplus population, hell why not colonize space, we can do it, but those damn governments of ours won't do it. Damn bastards, well I'm waiting for the revolution, and with the decline we're in I don't have to wait long. You Brit bastars are second after I come to power in America, your first frenchies. YEAH!

But realy gays only serve to kill of faulty gentics, that's all, yes there might be a few who do something more, like invent something, but they only exist to purify the human genetics by dieing and taking their faulty genes with them.

I just turned a Religious Reson discussion into a fight over rascism and 'gayism' (tmp). Yep I trade marked that.

Well I'm one of those few that are religious (Gaianism), but don't let their faith blind them. I think it's realy a problem with self view, whether you want to be in control of your life or don't, it's all ultimatly up to you, whether you like it or not.

Yep, but gays have a role ... to die and decrease the surplus population, hell why not colonize space, we can do it, but those damn governments of ours won't do it. Damn bastards, well I'm waiting for the revolution, and with the decline we're in I don't have to wait long. You Brit bastars are second after I come to power in America, your first frenchies. YEAH!

But realy gays only serve to kill of faulty gentics, that's all, yes there might be a few who do something more, like invent something, but they only exist to purify the human genetics by dieing and taking their faulty genes with them.

I just turned a Religious Reson discussion into a fight over rascism and 'gayism' (tmp). Yep I trade marked that.

Well I'm one of those few that are religious (Gaianism), but don't let their faith blind them. I think it's realy a problem with self view, whether you want to be in control of your life or don't, it's all ultimatly up to you, whether you like it or not.

Well while you're at it, we'll turn it into Grammar 101 just for you ....

Yep, but gays have a role ... to die and decrease the surplus population, .


HAHHAHAHA im still not over that one....decrease the surplus population....last i checked the surplus is not caused by gays... maybe things are different in Texas...