NationStates Jolt Archive

I went to grade school in california, and now there is a big stink over some of the gubernator's plans on how to reform the education system, as well as stealing money from it to help out with the state's budget deficit.

So, what do you people think of the idea of tenure - "a status granted to a teacher usually after a probationary period that protects him or her from dismissal except for reasons of incompetence, gross misconduct, or financial necessity" (Def. from dictionary.com.)

Why is the problem with the U.S. educational system?

What is the educational system like in other countries?

Does throwing more money at the system solve anything?

Does more money for classroom materials really help?

I have serious problems with tenure in general. At my university, once you get tenure, essentially you can't get fired unless you do something really stupid. Like sleep with a student. I've had a couple of horrible proffessors that there is no way that they would ever get fired because they have tenure. It sucks.

What is the educational system like in other countries?


I don't know What you mean but here goes.
IN FINLAND:
We have 'basic' education for 9 classes. That's also mandatory.
It starts when you are 6-7 and end when you are 16-17. It's totally free and
Schools provide lunch everyday. We have pretty good idea what to teach
e.g We start learning english at third grade. Therefore we (finnish) are
considered to have very good skills in english compared to like Germany or France.

After that you don't have to go to school anymore, but thats like 5% or something. So the rest, who continue schooling, have a wide range of
options. Almost 50% wents to 'lukio' (read high school, but I think it's much
better. more like a college, but you don't specialize in anything). Others go to
usually Business school (It really isn't, but I don't have the word for it) or to school (Name is missing again) what provides you with a profession. There also some other, but they are not widely popular. These take 3-4 years to
graduate from.

All of these schools are also basically free. Lukio what is the most expensive
costs maybe 200-500 Euros (same as dollars). Thats due to a books and
that kind of stuff. School itself is free. Other schools I mentioned are much cheaper. after those you can go to university or similar kind of place but different agendas. (Economical, theatrical?, engineering and so on)
Those institutions are also rather cheap (I don't have a figure, but with a govt funding anybody can go to them).

Recent Pisa studu showed that we have one of the best educational systems
in the world (study conserded on lower classes first 12 years I think?)
It's thought that small educational groups and talented teachers (it takes many years in Finland to become a teacher) are the main reason for Finland high performance on this study every time. But we can't rule out other things like free and huge puplic library system, kinderkarden and the fact that it's free for all!!!

I agree with tenure to a point. Time increases your income as such the school would get rid of expensive teachers and or professors.

However, I think tenure should be modified a little to make sure a teacher stays current in some cases.

A community college once had a major fight over tenure. A bio teacher refused to upgrade his knowledge. He had tenure after all. Biotech had just exploaded and he was still teaching from a Watson era text.

The school had to act when they received several notices from local companies that they would blacklist anybody from their schools as their knowledge was noticably substandard.

It was costly and they did end of up firing him in the end.

I went to grade school in california, and now there is a big stink over some of the gubernator's plans on how to reform the education system, as well as stealing money from it to help out with the state's budget deficit.

So, what do you people think of the idea of tenure - "a status granted to a teacher usually after a probationary period that protects him or her from dismissal except for reasons of incompetence, gross misconduct, or financial necessity" (Def. from dictionary.com.)

Why is the problem with the U.S. educational system?
Not sure on this one, but it does seem that to give tenure to someone goes against the culture. Whether it is true in practice or not, the principle behind American culture is that of merit. The best person for the job, in principle, is the person that gets the job. Now tenure is explicitly opposed to this position. The best person can not get the job if someone else, not even half as good, but nevertheless competent has the job.
What is the educational system like in other countries?
I assume you are asking about whether tenure, or its equivalent, exists elsewhere. In the UK, it apears not to exist. There are general rules though for all employment that require there to be a reason for dismissing someone, above and beyond the desire of the boss. In practice this just means that the employers tend to place impossible conditions, which means that they always have a reason if they want it.
In Brazil there are two types of universities. Publicly owned and privately owned. The lecturers at federal or state universities are civil servants, state employees. Now this means that they have to go through a selection procedure called a "concurso" which translates as a competition, but it is really just a competitive selection procedure where the competition depends on the number of applicants and the panel judging the results. Anyone who is "concursado" (obtained their employment by means of this competitive selection procedure) has what is called stability of employment. This means that short of raping the bosses daughter, or some equaly heinous act, you can not be sacked. We have lecturers who are paid with taxpayers money, who have not set foot in the university where they are employed for twenty years. Tenure is not so bad.

Does throwing more money at the system solve anything?
Depends on what is done with the money, what problem you are trying to solve, and what would count as solving it.

Does more money for classroom materials really help?Yes, until the classroom is fully stocked. Then, obviously no.