NationStates Jolt Archive


All Governments Fall (Mortalism)

Plutophobia
18-03-2005, 09:01
(Note: If this idea has already been thought of before and you know of its name, please let me know. I did some searching and wasn't able to find it. Although I don't doubt the strong possibility that it's been thought of before. Anyway, here goes.)

Introduction
I've been trying to think about what the ideal government is, and I've come to the conclusion that there is no government which is not destined to fail. I call this political philosophy Mortalism, because it is based on the sound principle that there is an unfortunate limit to human understanding and as a result, every government that exists will eventually either be overthrown or through advanced technology kill off its entire population. In other words, it accepts that all governments are mortal.

The following is a series of rough drafts of philosophical essays I've written, proving how each government will eventually destroy itself, because of a certain economic system, and why. In my second drafts, I will include more historical examples and further explanation. For now, though, this is mostly logical reasoning, with a fair knowledge of psychology and how systems of government work.

The reason each government will fail is because of inherent selfishness in humanity, reflected in the economy which influences the government. In psychology, it's taught that our brains are driven towards pleasure and away from pain, towards what we desire and away from what we don't desire. This is a basic principle of Buddhism and it's further affirmed even by western proverbs, such as "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." The greater amount of power a person has, the greater extent at which they can exercise their selfishness. In modern Democracies, there needs to be a system of checks and balances, where the selfishness of two different groups cancel eachother out, to prevent any one group from assuming absolute power and becoming corrupted, no different than a monarch would. So, essentially, although we can overcome it, all human beings are naturally wired to be hedonistic.

As I said, our governments will fall as a result of the economy having an impact on politics, regardless of the type of government. There are basically four main economic styles: Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, and Anarchy. The last one could be interpreted as a form of Capitalism, Communism, or neither, and, in a way, either could be true, but proponents of Anarchy often argue the same points I am about to describe, when it comes to the flaws of both Capitalism and Communism in forms of government. So, for purposes of simplicity, I've kept it separate.

What I've previously stated, on Mortalism, sounds grim, as if there is actually no hope for humanity. This isn't actually true, as there are a few rare, but possible, scenarios where a government could exist theoretically stable, but they are so improbable that it's reasonable to accept that they will not happen. I'll explain the possibilities that might save us in the last essay. But even if the future is bleak, Mortalism does not completely accept futility. Instead, it stresses that instead of trying to find the ideal government and ignoring one political construct because of flaws, we should instead find which forms of government last the longest and what methods need to be taken to sustain them, even if the end is inevitable.

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Capitalism
A great deal of people in North America and eastern Europe tend to believe that capitalism is the strongest and most effective form of government. While I cannot deny their claims, my intent is not disprove this, but rather, to prove that, just like Communism, it will inevitably fail, although it seems to be more prominent and has lasted much longer.

The problem with capitalism is that it encourages class conflict. As someone once told me, "If you redistributed everyone's wealth equally in a capitalist country, within a matter of weeks, there'd be the haves and have-nots." Through great tragedy and a series of events after World War II, the middleclass exploded. However, as I'll explain, Capitalism has the tendency to push the depths of both wealth and poverty to greater extremes, until you have two classes, practically identical to past dictatorships. And that is the problem: class conflict. When capitalist governments become democratic aristocracies, the aristocrats look out for the benefit of those within their group, not the entire population.

In the beginnings of a democracy, whether direct or indirect, the people vote for political candidates. But the candidates voted into office are not fully representative of the entire population, but rather, they are fully representative of the majority of the population that voted for them. This utilitarian approach already creates an aristocracy. The "ruling class" of a democracy is the group which the majority favors. If a country is more than 50% white but almost 100% of their politicians are white (because majority almost always wins), then the "ruling class" are the white politicians. Yes, in a civilized society, they will not discriminate against others, based on anything but personal character. However, it has never been in the nature of mankind to be inherently tolerant, empathetic, or understanding.

Every culture which exists has racism and even those who are not profoundly racist, do base many of their beliefs on ignorant stereotypes and generalizations. Psychology's concepts of "categorical processing" and "availability heuristics", further affirm this principle. This is also one reason why modern governments require so many laws against discrimination. Every social group, whether it's as large as a government or as small as a high school, will have discrimination based upon whomever the majority most admires or has the greatest amount of power. And, once given that power, politicians who are favored by the majority, like high school jocks, cheerleaders, or any popular people in high school, will use that power to discriminate against others. This unfortunate aristocracy always leads to discrimination.

However, it is an extremely slow process. A balanced democracy does not become a fascist plutocracy overnight. This is because those with power are obligated to give people the appearance of being neutral, objective, and that they are looking out for everyone's needs, not just their own and their constituents. Depending on the level of corruption within a government, a large number of politicians may actually sincerely believe they're doing this. However, historically, political bodies always pander to the groups which put them in office. Currently, in America, Republicans are mostly voted for by upperclass, white, Christians. So, enforcing morality and removing restrictions on big business are on the agenda, while social welfare and equality generally is not. On the other hand, Democrats recieve a great deal of the minority vote and votes from the middle class. As a result, emphasizing the importance of civil rights, protecting the working class from big business, and social welfare are on the agenda, whereas protecting the rights of big business or promoting religious values are not. As you can clearly see, their policies are based around those that vote for them. This is what makes the transition to an aristocracy so slow: the necessity to somewhat pander to your constituents, whether sincere or not.

It is undeniable that democratic capitalist countries eventually become aristocracies, though, not only because of the utilitarian approach to voting, but also because politicians are not chosen based on their wisdom and competence, but rather, on the appearance of wisdom and competence. Yale's Method of Persuasion taught that the most important thing in a speech, in order to persuade someone, is not strong, logical reasoning, but rather, the ability to distract your audience, the appearance of credibility (youthfulness, beauty, etc), certain styles of arguments, and manipulating emotions. Greater financial resources allow people to utilize these psychological tools with greater effectiveness and scope. And even if laws are passed which give every politician equal amounts of campaign finances or put a cap on them, there will still undoubtedly be illegal, under-the-table finances or money secretly given to supposedly "independent" groups, in order to spread lies, through whisper campaigns, smear campaigns, and any other methods of dirty politics. (Karl Rove once defeated a political opponent by bugging his own office and claiming his opponent was responsible. When the FBI removed the bug, they discovered that the bug had an extremely limited range, the battery had a life of about 8 hours and when they examined it, tests showed that a fresh battery had been put in the device only about 20 minutes before they originally got there. This is just one example of dirty politics which can be achieved, even with limits on campaign finances.) Fixed elections are also the consequence of this corrupting aristocracy.

And so, in conclusion, democratic capitalism may be the slowest decaying form of government, but it is mortal. Utilitarian-based voting, whether direct or indirect, creates a ruling class. Disproportionate amounts of wealth contribute to this ruling class. Once the ruling class has assumed power, it slowly creates more benefits for their own group, while taking away the benefits of outsiders. Thus, in capitalism, the upperclass and lowerclass always travel away from eachother at two extreme sides of the financial spectrum. Immense poverty will certainly lead to an uprising. But even if this does not happen, once a democratic capitalist country allows this, it is no longer a democracy, but a fascist oligarchy under the guise of a democracy (as was the case with Saddam Hussein's reign of power, in Iraq).
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Communism

It is commonly accepted in America and most of Europe that Communism will always fail, because of how most Communist governments, so far, have collapsed. It must be clear, however, that Communism is the same as Capitalism, in that they are both mortal, and both can collapse easily, under certain conditions. Many Communists argue that the majority of Communist nations were not really Communists, but rather, that they were people who advocated Stalinism. In other words, they often denied the absolute necessity of a Communist revolution and they somewhat incorporated capitalism into their economy. As a result, it was not true Communism, but rather, a perverted version of it. There was a corrupt bureaucracy, which attained large amounts of wealth, being envious of western, capitalist nations, and they exploited the poor. Some say China is like this today: a country which appears Communist, but is actually more Stalinist (which could be considered Communist, depending on who you ask). Communists say this is not the goal of Communism. Instead, the goal of Communism is just like Capitalism: a Democracy which fully represents the people. And truly, if their election system were identical to America's, I can't see why they would collapse as quickly as they did in the past.

But regardless, even though there are numerous factors which could speed up or slow down the fall of a Communist nation, there are clear reasons why it will obviously fail, eventually. First of all, there is no incentive. It is natural of all human beings to desire things, especially things which they see. Communism in Europe partially collapsed because it was envious of western prosperity and freedom, while their governments had to oppress them to maintain control and poverty rates were unacceptably high. It is possible that, if there were ever a global Communist Revolution, that Communism might be a lot more successful than it has been. Removing jealousy of foreign nations with greater civil rights and enviably prosperous middleclass and upperclass citizens, would be a way to get people to agree with Communism, as a form of government. That's the one major problem: People just simply don't agree. Many people wanted to escape Communist Europe, but the goverment, fearing even more damage to its economy, kept its citizens imprisoned within their own country.

But even so, I don't believe that even a Communist Revolution would sustain any Communist government, indefinately. As stated in the introduction, mankind has the natural tendency towards Hedonism, not selflessness. This natural tendency towards Hedonism may be as a result of being born into a Hedonistic world, so, growing up a Communist world may prevent it. However, even with a Communist Revolution, the potential for envy of capitalism still exists, because of the past. Memories and evidence of previously prosperous people under Capitalist countries would still be a way for people to desire what they don't have. It would be enormously difficult to spread Communism by means other than violent conflict, and even more difficult to convince a person raised with capitalism to give up feelings of individualism and self-gain, So, even with a Communist Revolution, they would literally have to invade every non-Communist country in the world, destroy all past relics and archaelogical evidence of Capitalism's prosperous groups, and oppress all of those who dissent, because they remember the truth. This is so ridiculously impossible that a Communist Revolution is just not practical, either trying to support it, or the benefits once it's carried out. You can distort history, but you cannot re-write huge portions of it. Any form of Communism has to oppress its people, as a result of this envy. Just like Capitalism's class-conflict, this oppression leads to rebellion. As Chapter 72 of the Tao Te Ching says, "When people no longer fear force, they bring about greater force. Do not limit their place. Do not reject their livelihood. Because the ruler does not reject them, therefore they do not reject the ruler."
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Socialism

Socialism is really just a form of regulated Capitalism. If you define Socialism as a government which fully controls all industries, then many countries today which call themselves Socialist, are not. If you define Socialism as a government which controls some industries, then every non-anarchist capitalist country is somewhat Socialist, in nature. For this reason, it would be ignorant of someone to criticize a country such as Canada for being moderately Socialist (or claim Socialism has killed thousands of people), while ignoring the fact that all capitalist countries control or direct the economy and its industries, in one form or another. In other words, all non-anarchist capitalist countries are more or less Socialist in nature. Having an abundance of Socialist laws makes us consider them "Socialist." But having some laws based on Socialist principles automatically makes us totally devoid of Socialism's influence, and gives us a truly free market economy? Definitely not.

Only in Anarchy is there pure capitalism or a truly 'free' market economy. Criminal laws, for example, prevent enormous amounts of financial losses by preventing and compensating for theft or property damage, and civil law gives further compensation. Labor unions, child labor laws, laws against discrimination, America's FED, various country's treasuries, the World Bank, and many other laws and institutions have a strong and direct impact on the economy with the intention of partially controlling it and regulating it. In this way, no Capitalist Democracy is purely free of Socialism.

And so, essentially, Socialism is just a form of extreme liberalism (in the sense that is accepted today, not "classical liberalism" or "libertarianism.") It should also be noted that both Conservativism and Liberalism share aspects of eachother. Liberals would not abandon moral laws, where Secular Humanism and Judeo-Christian ethics meet (such as public nudity or drug-use). Conservatives, on the other hand, also agree that there need to be some level of civil rights and some limitations on big business. As a result of both contemporary Liberalism and Conservativism being so moderate, even though Socialism is a form of extreme Liberalism, its aspects are not solely in Liberalism, but also in Conservativism, although not as prominent.

As stated before, Socialism is just a strong form of regulated, Capitalism. The same ideas on Capitalism apply to Socialism, except that in Socialism, the possibility for corruption can either greatly increase or greatly decrease. In the recent Iraqi War, several Defense firms and Oil Companies had direct ties to the politicians that set them up with government contracts. Politicians used their power, for personal gain, to the extent at which they could. Socialism can increase the extent of this corruption, because economic and political power are so unified.

However, if, like most Socialist governments, there are numerous conflicting political parties within the government, then Socialism would become corrupt at the same rate as a Capitalist Democracy or Republic. The reason for this is that although the government has ultimate authority over the economy, there is still at least one main political party which defends the rich and one main political party which defends the poor. The benefits of Socialism are also immense. They utilize the same benefits of Communism's centralized wealth, with superior education and healthcare.

On the other hand, though, Socialism is not necessarily a superior government to a Capitalist Democracy (or Republic). Because, as I mentioned, Socialism and Democracy become corrupt at the same rate, both growing towards a Plutocratic Aristocracy. Once both the Socialist country and the Democracy are totally governed by one corrupt, ruling class (rather than conflict parties), the Socialist country would become corrupt at a far faster rate than the Democracy, because of its centralized power and control. A government with two conflicting political parties without a Socialized economy have almost as much power as one just like it, with a Socialized economy (due to opposite sides of the political spectrum pointing the finger at eachother, for being corrupt). But an Plutocratic Aristocracy with a Socialized economy would become a corrupt at a much faster rate than a Plutocratic Aristocracy without a Socialized economy, due to the greater amount of control that the group has. In other words, initially, both Democracies and Socialist governments decline at the same rate, although Socialist countries have major benefits over Democracy. However, once they've gotten to a certain point, Socialist governments decline at an exponential rate, compared to Democracies, because the corrupt aristocracy has a greater level of control, to increase their wealth and resources, while exploiting the poor.

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Anarchy

For those of you who aren't aware what Anarchy is, politically, it is a society which wants to abolish all government, so that people voluntarily co-exist in harmony. Some Anarchists support this idea because there is evidence to show that this is the state which mankind began in. When man traveled in groups of hunters and gatherers, there was probably very little personal property and everything that was produced was used. It was then that we were the most peaceful. Because there was no room to have more than others and there were no different classes to conflict with eachother.

In my opinion, though, these facts, even if true, are totally irrelevant. Because we live in a modern society with advanced technology. Our lives and our minds are completely different from primitive Cro-Magnons. An Anarchist's revolution is equally as ridiculous and impossible as a Communist revolution, for the exact same reasons. First of all, the vast majority of the world is not anarchist and convincing them to be would be just as difficult as with Communism. Taking them by force would not work, because it would be a huge and impossible war, and there's no guarantee that people would not retaliate, afterwards. Plus, just as with Communism, in an Anarchist's society, the only way for it to be possibly exist is if there is nothing temptating or enviable. Even past knowledge can lead to temptation of wealth. So, just like with a Communist revolution, you'd have to wage a massive, international war and erase all current knowledge and past evidence of individual financial prosperity. This is just not plausible.

One idea that also should be considered is that, as stated numerous times, mankind is inherently selfish. Even if mankind existed in a Utopian environment, in his beginnings, if he became selfish, without some outside selfishness acts to mimic, then the idea of selfishness as a learned behavior, as an original sin, falls apart. So, even if we could, theoretically, destroy all technology and became an Anarchist society, what could you do to prevent mankind from becoming selfish again? You could not. Because we've evolved that way. We may have once lived in total harmony, as a primitive Utopian society, but the selfishness we've developed is a step through evolution and we cannot turn back time. And unlike Communism, Anarchy cannot work through oppression. You can't force someone to live in harmony, with pure freedom. Plus, just like with Communism, people don't always agree. In large groups, they never agree.

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Our Only Hopes

There are various obscure possibilities, of things which could save governments from decline, and even mankind's existence itself. However, these are so obscure, and the snowball of selfishness has rolled down the hill of humanity so fast and so far, that only a miracle prevent it. But that does not mean we should totally ignore any chance of redemption or salvation, no matter how improbable.

Simply put, the core reason why all governments will inevitably fail is because of the general lack of man's ethics. Ethics cannot be improved by religion, because fascist governments or groups can manipulate religion to promote evil just as much as religion, itself, can promote good. Ethics cannot be improved, permanently, through education, because people will always have differing opinions on ethics, and truly, ethical education is not the instruction of ethics, but rather, instruction of the ethics accepted by the government. In a capitalist government, this could include individualism (in my opinion, a euphemism for selfishness). In a communist government, it could be taught that government oppression is ethical. So, while ethical education might be good in some circumstances, it is not a solution. Secular Humanism is not a solution, because religion and cultural differences are not something you can ignore or eliminate. Ethical oppression (what many theorize Neoconservatives' have plotted) is not a solution. Because even if you consider yourself moral enough to dictate to society what is right, the moral oligarchy you put in power today could be next year's Nazi regime.

This leaves only two possible solutions: that mankind only governs itself as an illusion or that science discovers a way to dramatically increase morality. So far, there is little or no research into ethics, as science has pretty much concluded that all ethics are relative. This is not acceptable, because almost every person in the world feels, within the soul of their being, that there is an objective ethics, and so many people have strived so hard, to define it. It's not something that should ever be thrown away, or a quest we should give up so easily, especially in the face of its enormous benefits. Discovering objective ethics would be the answer. Truly, the only objective morality which, based on current knowledge, could be theoretically implemented if we had the logistic capability, would be selflessness. If science were to design genetic-engineering, neurosurgery, or nanobots which destroyed or changed human DNA or the part of the brain containing selfishness, then this could save humanity. It would create the Utopian commune that Communists, Anarchists, Science Fiction authors, and Philosophers dream of. But it would need to be universally implemented or those who are selfish could easily take advantage of those who are not. The ones implementing the "injection of selflessness" could also be subject to corruption. So, it might be a lot more complicated. Perhaps both selflessness and a greater intolerance for selfishness need to be injected into the human heart.

The other possibility, even more strange and obscure, is that mankind give up its right to govern itself, except as an illusion. It's very clear to me that mankind could not exist, at least not peacefully and happily, unless it could have the illusion of governing itself. Because, the only possibilities of outside entities which could govern our lives, are extraterrestrials (if they exist) or some form of sentient machine. Either way, this authority over us would create prejudice and one way or another, we would strike back, rebel, and overthrow our captors. As the American revolutionary, Patrick Henry said, "Give us liberty, or give us death!" And as the Scottish hero, William Wallace said, "They may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom!" This idea of fighting for freedom, whether aggressively or passively, even when faced with death is throughout all of the world's cultures. An oppressive alien or mechanical force would be no different. Therefore, whether controlled by computers or aliens from outer space, we would always need to be under the illusion that we are governing ourselves, although we are not. However, it's quite obvious that these two solutions are just conjecture, mostly fiction, and are so improbable. While I agree research into ethics should be vastly increased, we may need to accept that it's futile to resist the entropy of life.
Patra Caesar
18-03-2005, 09:06
I as a history student have to agree, all governments fall. However there is hope, new governments always rise, providing that the population survives... Government is nothing without people, people are little without government.

Edit: Nice collection of essays, I couldn't read all of it in the one sitting however.

Edit2: Just a note, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." is not a proverb, it is a quote, or rather a misquote. Lord Atkinson said "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutly."
Eichen
18-03-2005, 09:34
I read through the whole thing, and liked it. You have an easygoing style, even when you're trying to convey complex themes.
Well done, IMHO. Just fix a few of those typos.
Salvondia
18-03-2005, 09:46
It is nice and well written. But, um, yeah.

You: All Governments will Fail eventually.........
Outside observer, interrupting you: "Well yeah, everyone pretty much holds that view"
You: As I was saying before I was rudely interrupted, the following is why all governments fall because *rattles on*
Anarchic Conceptions
18-03-2005, 09:53
(Note: If this idea has already been thought of before and you know of its name, please let me know. I did some searching and wasn't able to find it. Although I don't doubt the strong possibility that it's been thought of before. Anyway, here goes.)

Marx's Historicalal Determinism?

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Anarchy

For those of you who aren't aware what Anarchy is, politically, it is a society which wants to abolish all government, so that people voluntarily co-exist in harmony. Some Anarchists support this idea because there is evidence to show that this is the state which mankind began in. When man traveled in groups of hunters and gatherers, there was probably very little personal property and everything that was produced was used. It was then that we were the most peaceful. Because there was no room to have more than others and there were no different classes to conflict with eachother.

In my opinion, though, these facts, even if true, are totally irrelevant. Because we live in a modern society with advanced technology.

Primitive tribes are usually cited as example that heirarchy isn't something inherent this does not mean we want to, or believe we are even able to, turn back the clock and undo thousands of years of 'civilisation.'

Not all Anarchists are privitivists. In fact primitivists make up a very small minority of Anarchists, in fact it is debateable that they are even Anarchists.

Our lives and our minds are completely different from primitive Cro-Magnons. An Anarchist's revolution is equally as ridiculous and impossible as a Communist revolution, for the exact same reasons. First of all, the vast majority of the world is not anarchist and convincing them to be would be just as difficult as with Communism. Taking them by force would not work, because it would be a huge and impossible war, and there's no guarantee that people would not retaliate, afterwards. Plus, just as with Communism, in an Anarchist's society, the only way for it to be possibly exist is if there is nothing temptating or enviable. Even past knowledge can lead to temptation of wealth. So, just like with a Communist revolution, you'd have to wage a massive, international war and erase all current knowledge and past evidence of individual financial prosperity. This is just not plausible.

Not all anarchists believe that there should ideally be a revolution to institute an Anarchist state. In fact some believe it is impossible to have Anarchism through revolution due to the arbitrary nature of "revolutionary justice" that will infect any subsequent society based on it.

One idea that also should be considered is that, as stated numerous times, mankind is inherently selfish.

I'm not saying man isn't selfish. I think we are, however I don't think we are 'inherently.' Does you have any evidence for this?

This view seems to just be the extention of "say something enough times and it will become true." This view of an inherent human nature is often stated and never back up as far as I can see.

Also, selfishness isn't an inherently bad thing.

Even if mankind existed in a Utopian environment, in his beginnings, if he became selfish, without some outside selfishness acts to mimic, then the idea of selfishness as a learned behavior, as an original sin, falls apart. So, even if we could, theoretically, destroy all technology and became an Anarchist society,

:headbang: We :headbang: are :headbang: not :headbang: all :headbang: primitivists :headbang:

I wouldn't even say I am particuarly Utopian. Yes, I'm an anarchist. But I don't think that it will be Utopia, just far more preferable.

what could you do to prevent mankind from becoming selfish again? You could not. Because we've evolved that way. We may have once lived in total harmony, as a primitive Utopian society, but the selfishness we've developed is a step through evolution and we cannot turn back time. And unlike Communism, Anarchy cannot work through oppression. You can't force someone to live in harmony, with pure freedom. Plus, just like with Communism, people don't always agree. In large groups, they never agree.


Please, please please, do some reading up on Anarchism. You seem very intelligent, and Anarchism isn't that hard to understand. I think it would do your theory a world of good personally. Learn to differentiate between the different types of Anarchism.

A few for you; Anarcho-Communism, Individualism (I have no idea if this is its proper name though), Mutualism, Syndicalism, 'Primitivism' (ie the one that you are judging the rest of us on.)
Eichen
18-03-2005, 10:57
I'd replace Individualism with Objectivism (the Ayn Rand hardcore version of modern Libertarianism). And add Anarcho-Capitalism.
Salvondia
18-03-2005, 11:22
Marx's Historicalal Determinism?


Primitive tribes are usually cited as example that heirarchy isn't something inherent this does not mean we want to, or believe we are even able to, turn back the clock and undo thousands of years of 'civilisation.'

Not all Anarchists are privitivists. In fact primitivists make up a very small minority of Anarchists, in fact it is debateable that they are even Anarchists.



Not all anarchists believe that there should ideally be a revolution to institute an Anarchist state. In fact some believe it is impossible to have Anarchism through revolution due to the arbitrary nature of "revolutionary justice" that will infect any subsequent society based on it.



*cough*Kropotkin*cough* *Cough*Mutual Aid*Cough*

I'm not saying man isn't selfish. I think we are, however I don't think we are 'inherently.' Does you have any evidence for this?

This view seems to just be the extention of "say something enough times and it will become true." This view of an inherent human nature is often stated and never back up as far as I can see.

Also, selfishness isn't an inherently bad thing.



:headbang: We :headbang: are :headbang: not :headbang: all :headbang: primitivists :headbang:

I wouldn't even say I am particuarly Utopian. Yes, I'm an anarchist. But I don't think that it will be Utopia, just far more preferable.



Please, please please, do some reading up on Anarchism. You seem very intelligent, and Anarchism isn't that hard to understand. I think it would do your theory a world of good personally. Learn to differentiate between the different types of Anarchism.

A few for you; Anarcho-Communism, Individualism (I have no idea if this is its proper name though), Mutualism, Syndicalism, 'Primitivism' (ie the one that you are judging the rest of us on.)


Learn to separate yourself from the group. He stated quite clearly "some anarchists" and went on to discuss those anarchists. You call yourself an anarchist, fine. He wasn't talking about you. He was talking about those anarchists who conform to the viewpoint he provided.
Patrach
18-03-2005, 11:23
On Capitalism

First, I'd like to apologize beforehand for any possible grammatical and spelling errors, for you see, english isn't my mother tongue.

If a small bunch of people hogged all the capital for themselves, they wouldn't be able to generate much more wealth, for there would be no one to buy the products of their companies. Sure, the rich can buy lots of stuff... but, for example, one man needs only so many toilets. Or do you believe, that after these people had hogged almost all the wealth (currently) available, they'd lose interest in obtaining more of it? Then why are Bill Gates, Donald Trump etc. still "in the business"?

"Immense poverty will certainly lead to an uprising." Don't you think that before this happens, the rich realize that it's in their best interest to give enough to charity to keep to poor from sinking to abject poverty? That be a lot cheaper than to invest into an army of bodyguards, walls, security cameras, traps and soforth...

Still about your example: if the majority became poor relatively fast, the demand on everything would sink, which would drive the prices further up, which would cause workers to demand higher wages, which would drive prices up, which would further diminish demand... in short: hyperinflation, companies out of business, mass unemployment, worst depression ever. The savings of the rich would lose their value, and their stocks would be worth less than the paper they're printed upon...

I say you make a common error in your thoughts about capitalism. I quote: "If you redistributed everyone's wealth equally in a capitalist country, within a matter of weeks, there'd be the haves and have-nots." Ah, but capitalism isn't about redistributing wealth, it's about generating more wealth altogether. When the rich want money they're bound the benefit others too with their investing. Investing in companies means more jobs (not necessarily in _that_ company, but for example, in the company from which the new printing machine was ordered). New jobs would mean increased purchasing power, which would mean better revenues for the companies the rich own, which would further increase the rich people's ability to go on investing and generating more wealth... The whole economy benefits from rich people's the desire to get more. This is why "the poor" in, say, Britain have tvs.

Furthermore, you speak of some sort of anarchocapitalism, in which just about everything is a-ok. Complete freedom is just as bad as the lack of it, as in the common paradox: we need laws in order to be free. "The invisible hand" often lacks foresight, for example: SUVs are still "hot", even though their net value in, say, 5 years is next to nothing because by then, a barrel of oil costs someting like $65 (present day money). What's more, SUVs make a hefty contribution to the soaring gas prices. This is why nations should discourage buying large vehicles by taxing oil. This doesn't stop, but slows down, the rise of the price of the oil, which in turn helps to prevent inflation.

On Democracy

"If a country is more than 50% white but almost 100% of their politicians are white (because majority almost always wins) --", I don't know about your country, but at least here, the party that gets most votes, doesn't take the whole parliament (Finland has a polyparty system). True, it will have the majority of the seats, but that's why we have rules to prevent the major party from singlehandedly driving through all its agendas (an issue needs to get 2/3 of the votes, before it's accepted).

"But the candidates voted into office are not fully representative of the entire population, but rather, they are fully representative of the majority of the population that voted for them." so they appeal to the majority, and drive polices that benefit the majority. The majority's victory may be some minority's defeat, but it is impossible for any regime to fulfill everyone's desires, for they are often in conflict with each other. Anyhow, this 2/3-of- the-votes-to-pass-rule would pretty much guard the minorities from too discriminating decisions, because in such a situation the other political party/parties would pretty much vote in unison against the majority. And I have never seen in a democratic election a party that got over 66% of all votes.

" -- politicians who are favored by the majority, like high school jocks, cheerleaders, or any popular people in high school --", I claim that the majority resides inbetween jocks and geeks. The can only be so many popular kids. I mean, they wouldn't be popular if they weren't something special now would they?

" --voting, whether direct or indirect, creates a ruling class." A ruling class would mean continuity, same party and same people in power over and over again... power passed on to relatives or close friends. Or do you claim that those in th e opposite ends of the political spectrum are actually part of the same ruling class? That even tough they battle in public, they actually just want one of them to rule?

In democracy, those who wish to get power or stay in power need to appeal to the public in every election. If the party that won runs the country very badly, or does so for many consecutive terms (and there is a formidable opponent), it's highly unlikely for the party to win again. It isn't all about putting up a good show near the elections, for people tend to remember the bad things over the good.

I hope my reply is even remotely coherent (getting more difficult towards the end, for I'm not accustomed to writing such a long texts). If you reply, I ask you to do so via e-mail: ddomander[at]kotikone[dot]fi (surely you can post your reply to the forum too...). And... I hope you don't get offended by this reply, for it wasn't my intent to insult your intelligence at any point.

Best regards
D. Domander
Anarchic Conceptions
18-03-2005, 11:29
Learn to separate yourself from the group. He stated quite clearly "some anarchists" and went on to discuss those anarchists. You call yourself an anarchist, fine. He wasn't talking about you. He was talking about those anarchists who conform to the viewpoint he provided.

However the Anarchists he did choose are by no means the majority. If he was finguring the Anarcho-Communists I would understand, but he chose a group that not all Social Anarchists* agree are actually Anarchists and judged the whole school of thought on it. He also judged Anarchists on ideas that next to none of them have, but are just thought to have by society in general.

(I realise I should not have jumped to conclusions, but the majority of the times I referenced my self was just to show that anarchism is not homogenous. Though I definitely thinks it has potential, which is why I mentioned some of the disparate groups at the end)
Salvondia
18-03-2005, 11:35
However the Anarchists he did choose are by no means the majority. If he was finguring the Anarcho-Communists I would understand, but he chose a group that not all Social Anarchists* agree are actually Anarchists and judged the whole school of thought on it.

(I realise I should not have jumped to conclusions, but the majority of the times I referenced my self was just to show that anarchism is not homogenous. Though I definitely thinks it has potential, which is why I mentioned some of the disparate groups at the end)

:shrug: doesn't really matter. He identified who he was talking about and took them to task for their ideas. If you had an objection it should really just have been limited to "I think you're talking about X group, not Y group."

Honestly though I am not surprised by your reaction because it is a very common reaction among people who associate themselves with any political group or party. A speaker will make a point about a certain group and someone in the crowd will go "but that’s not me! I'm part of that group, you can't say that!" to which the reply is really simple. "Its not you? Well then you're not part of the group I just talked about are you?"
Anarchic Conceptions
18-03-2005, 11:39
First, I'd like to apologize beforehand any possible grammatical and spelling errors, for you see, english isn't my mother tongue.

How embarrasing, your better at English than I am :(

Furthermore, you speak of some sort of anarchocapitalism, in which just about everything is a-ok. Complete freedom is just as bad as the lack of it, as in the common paradox: we need laws in order to be free.

Are you a hegelian?

This isn't a criticism or anything. Just a question.
Anarchic Conceptions
18-03-2005, 11:45
:shrug: doesn't really matter. He identified who he was talking about and took them to task for their ideas. If you had an objection it should really just have been limited to "I think you're talking about X group, not Y group."

True. Though hindsight is famously 20/20

Honestly though I am not surprised by your reaction because it is a very common reaction among people who associate themselves with any political group or party. A speaker will make a point about a certain group and someone in the crowd will go "but that’s not me! I'm part of that group, you can't say that!" to which the reply is really simple. "Its not you? Well then you're not part of the group I just talked about are you?"

It didn't help that I'm a bit of a foul mood though.

But still I think my objection was valid. But I should just have said "I think you're talking about X group, not Y group."
Patrach
18-03-2005, 11:46
Well, to be exact, I haven't got the faintest idea what hegelian is :) But don't bother explaining it to me, I'll look it up from wikipedia. I can't resist the urge to say this: if you think anarchism is _the_ system for us, just look at Sudan...
Anarchic Conceptions
18-03-2005, 12:02
Well, to be exact, I haven't got the faintest idea what hegelian is :)

Try looking for the "Right Hegelians" the "Left Hegelians" were the early Marxists, including Marx.

But don't bother explaining it to me, I'll look it up from wikipedia. I can't resist the urge to say this: if you think anarchism is _the_ system for us, just look at Sudan...

Sigh just after i delete the headbangs in my original post I am given this :)

I take it you logic is as follows:

The Sudan is in chaos.

Anarchy is a synonym of chaos.

Anarchists want Anarchy.

Therefore the Sudan should be an Anarchist's paradise?

The thing is, the Sudan is in anarchy, but it isn't an Anarchy. Really there are no Anarchists in the Sudan, just a lot of wannabe governments fighting it out for dominion.

The trend in liberal democracies where Anarchism (and all it diriratives) are bywords for chaos, destruction, terrorists etc is what some Anarchist call 'Black Propaganda.' It has absolutely no basis in reality, we don't want chaos, we want order. Take possibly the most famous Anarchist symbol, the circled A. What is means is "Anarchism is Order"
Niini
18-03-2005, 12:11
Nice text! :) As mentioned earlier very well written.
I have myself thought that mankind will eventually fall.
And points for explainig your views, too often people do not.


And also! I agree for the most part.
Anarchic Conceptions
18-03-2005, 12:11
This was meant to be an edit on my last post, but the page was loading up wayy too slow.

I'm just say this. I don't think either of us want this thread to become a pro/anti anarchism arguement.

However there are plenty of valid arguements against anarchism. I just take exception to the ones based on 'black propaganda'
Niini
18-03-2005, 12:17
.



"But the candidates voted into office are not fully representative of the entire population, but rather, they are fully representative of the majority of the population that voted for them." so they appeal to the majority, and drive polices that benefit the majority. The majority's victory may be some minority's defeat, but it is impossible for any regime to fulfill everyone's desires, for they are often in conflict with each other. Anyhow, this 2/3-of- the-votes-to-pass-rule would pretty much guard the minorities from too discriminating decisions, because in such a situation the other political party/parties would pretty much vote in unison against the majority. And I have never seen in a democratic election a party that got over 66% of all votes.


He didn't say Democracy is bad. He said that this will lead to the destruction of the goverment... eventually.
Patrach
18-03-2005, 13:37
He didn't say democracy was bad, I recognize this. That's why my post tried to "fight" against the claims the democracy will crumble or eventually decline into dictatorship.
Plutophobia
18-03-2005, 19:45
Marx's Historicalal Determinism?
It seems to be the same idea, except applied specifically to politics and it doesn't accept futility.

I'm not saying man isn't selfish. I think we are, however I don't think we are 'inherently.' Does you have any evidence for this?
Yes, but not right now. I need to look through my psychology notes and skim through my books. There's plenty of research to show that we're inherently selfish.

This view seems to just be the extention of "say something enough times and it will become true." This view of an inherent human nature is often stated and never back up as far as I can see.
When I write a second draft, I'll have more psychology info, while I'm writing it.

Also, selfishness isn't an inherently bad thing.
It depends on the level of it. Right now, it's extremely off. Amazon.com is trying to build a commercial spaceship, while others starve.

Please, please please, do some reading up on Anarchism. You seem very intelligent, and Anarchism isn't that hard to understand. I think it would do your theory a world of good personally. Learn to differentiate between the different types of Anarchism.

A few for you; Anarcho-Communism, Individualism (I have no idea if this is its proper name though), Mutualism, Syndicalism, 'Primitivism' (ie the one that you are judging the rest of us on.)
I will. Actually, like I said, this was just a rough draft. In future drafts, I'll probably break down each chapter into the separate sub-types of goverment. That way, I can be assured that I am proving that all governments are mortal (as well as Anarchism).

As for Anarchism... I agree, I don't know too much about it. I debated with someone on Libertarian-Socialism (aka "Anarcho-Communism"), and it makes absolutely no sense. I like the idea of smaller government, but you can't abolish police without chaos. With the mentally ill (sociopaths, psychopaths, etc), he said that they'd have a separate area, where they'd live. Well, without police, who would ensure that they get there?

And plus, if the world were divied up into these small nations, almost like tribes, then there would be land disputes, no different than in Africa or pre-Colonial America. If you mean to abolish all large governments completely and not even have local ones, that wouldn't work, either. Mankind's progress would be hindered, technologically (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). Education and healthcare would be poor. And there would be absolutely no laws.

Morality is attained from the culture you grow up with. Cutting all people off from one another, through an Anarchist society, you'd create people with contrary morals, which would conflict with eachother ocassionally. And lastly, even if you could achieve an Anarchist revolution, whether through violent or non-violent means, what would stop people from forming alliances, larger and larger, until there are governments again?

A person with an alliance would have an advantage over others. Assuming mankind is inherently selfish (I'll prove this more, later), he will form governments all over again.

On CapitalismIf a small bunch of people hogged all the capital for themselves, they wouldn't be able to generate much more wealth, for there would be no one to buy the products of their companies. Sure, the rich can buy lots of stuff... but, for example, one man needs only so many toilets. Or do you believe, that after these people had hogged almost all the wealth (currently) available, they'd lose interest in obtaining more of it?

Then why are Bill Gates, Donald Trump etc. still "in the business"?
Hedonism knows no end. But no, they would be able to continue generating wealth, as all they'd need are the lowerclass workers manufacturing goods for them, which they'd mostly sell right back to them. And even then, there's the likely possibility that they could be manufacturing extremely high-quality goods for their wealthy, peers.

"Immense poverty will certainly lead to an uprising." Don't you think that before this happens, the rich realize that it's in their best interest to give enough to charity to keep to poor from sinking to abject poverty? That be a lot cheaper than to invest into an army of bodyguards, walls, security cameras, traps and soforth...
No. They will give them just enough food to survive, but not enough to be stable or happy. It was in America's best interest to give Afghanistan prompt foreign aid after kicking the Soviets out. We hesitated, however, many of their people died. Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda hate us for it. It's in our best interest to promote the American middleclass, but we don't. And you exaggerate the necessity for security. When the upperclass have amassed most of the wealth, they can give just a small portion of it to a group of the lower class, in order to stop any of those who refuse to follow their commands. Many dictatorships have been enormously rich, and clearly did not spend more money on security than any democracy does today.

Still about your example: if the majority became poor relatively fast, the demand on everything would sink, which would drive the prices further up, which would cause workers to demand higher wages, which would drive prices up, which would further diminish demand... in short: hyperinflation, companies out of business, mass unemployment, worst depression ever. The savings of the rich would lose their value, and their stocks would be worth less than the paper they're printed upon...
Yes, but as I said, it's mostly a slow process. What you just described happened in the Soviet Union and it's happening to America, although much, much slower. You also have to take into account that the quality of many goods today could be reduced, therefore making them cheaper, while still doing their job (something to wear, something to eat, etc)

Because it's a slow process, it's also slightly different. You have to take into account that the rich would implement several legal and economic means by which to protect themselves from the economic impact. An economy drive towards and by the middleclass would be in a state of a depression if the middleclass's wealth suddenly dropped significantly. But if the middleclass disappeared, slowly, over many years, then the economy could shift away from a modern, capitalist economy and towards a government where the working class are exploited in concentration camps (although still paid), while the rich profit.

I say you make a common error in your thoughts about capitalism. I quote: "If you redistributed everyone's wealth equally in a capitalist country, within a matter of weeks, there'd be the haves and have-nots." Ah, but capitalism isn't about redistributing wealth, it's about generating more wealth altogether.
That quote was the idea that if you imposed Communism on a Capitalist government for a day, within a few weeks, there'd be the rich again. As for what you said about generating more wealth altogether... That's what someone who advocated Capitalism would say, of course.

"Wealth", really, means nothing. Wealth is symbolic of the amount of resources in an area and who controls them. Obviously, you cannot generate more resources than what there are, although you can manufacture goods. But to manufacture goods, you don't need a large middleclass. Any society (except for Communism or Anarchism) can manufacture goods. It's not even necessary to say that Capitalism manufactures goods the fastest, because this has led to destroying the environment.

When the rich want money they're bound the benefit others too with their investing. Investing in companies means more jobs (not necessarily in _that_ company, but for example, in the company from which the new printing machine was ordered). New jobs would mean increased purchasing power, which would mean better revenues for the companies the rich own, which would further increase the rich people's ability to go on investing and generating more wealth... The whole economy benefits from rich people's the desire to get more. This is why "the poor" in, say, Britain have tvs.
No, because the "wealth" is just a measure of resources used in manufactured goods. The rich control the means by which goods are manufactured and also the means at which they are distributed. So, the rich pay you for manufacturing goods, and then you pay them for the item, which you manufactured. So, essentially, the rich is nothing but a middleman that is paid because of social status. Obviously, it's more complicated than this (the poor clearly did not manufacture their own TVs), but still, in terms of the ENTIRE lower class and upper class, this is true.

When companies generate more profit, there is no necessity for companies to pay their employees more. This is true of Wal-Mart, the largest company in the world, with enormous profits-And yet their employees make just about what all other stores make. This is true of Microsoft, another huge company, which makes immense profit-And yet, they OUTSOURCE their jobs. With these two examples, it's very clear that businesses owe absolutely nothing to their employees, other than providing them a stable, comfortable working environment, with decent pay, when there's a job that needs to be done. If businesses can get labor for cheaper, in their own country or abroad, they'll do it.

And "trickle-down economics" simply does not work. I wrote an essay on this a long time ago. Basically, what it comes down to, is that although there will be some wealth which does reach the bottom of society, most of it will not. Much of the stock market is run by high-tech firms and pharmaceutical companies, which hire very few lower class workers, and even so, generating more profit doesn't make them pay the janitor more. With regular, consumer industries (television, fast food, clothes), they spend the majority of their money on advertising campaigns, not expansion. Trickle-down economics is based on the idea that it creates more jobs, therefore creating more wealth. What it doesn't do, however, is increase employees' wages , as previously explained, and it does not create as many jobs as its claims. Outsourcing also took a large chunk out of this.

Furthermore, you speak of some sort of anarchocapitalism, in which just about everything is a-ok.
In that section, I used America as an example, numerous times.

On Democracy

"If a country is more than 50% white but almost 100% of their politicians are white (because majority almost always wins) --", I don't know about your country, but at least here, the party that gets most votes, doesn't take the whole parliament (Finland has a polyparty system). True, it will have the majority of the seats, but that's why we have rules to prevent the major party from singlehandedly driving through all its agendas (an issue needs to get 2/3 of the votes, before it's accepted).
Even then, that does not prevent it, because of the utilitarian voting. Let me explain again, so you can see what I mean.

Let's say there's a group of 100 people. 60 are alphas and 40 are betas. So, they're fairly close to one another, in terms of size. Well, there's a democratic election, where 10 people get voted into office. If you evenly distribute the alphas and betas, then only the alphas will get voted into office. Even though they make up only 60% of the population, they (theoretically) make up 100% of the government. So, even your 2/3 majority would not protect against this. This same principle affects governments today. In America, the majority of our politicians are white, Christian, men, which is totally disproportionate and unrepresentative of society. You can say that they could still represent us, but I don't believe they'd be totally unbiased. When you say a goverment is ruled by one specific group (upperclass, white, Christian, males), there is going to be corruption. Even though this democratically elected, this ruling class still comes about. And truly, it would happen, no matter what the demographics of a country are.

There might not be a party now which has gotten over 66% of the votes, but it is theoretically possible in the future. The party which gains greater votes is not the party which is correct, but the party with the greatest amount of resources. Eventually, just like two competing companies, one will dominate the other. The pendulum swings back and forth, year after year, but someday, it will swing in one direction far enough that it won't come back.


F" -- politicians who are favored by the majority, like high school jocks, cheerleaders, or any popular people in high school --", I claim that the majority resides inbetween jocks and geeks. The can only be so many popular kids. I mean, they wouldn't be popular if they weren't something special now would they?
Not necessarily. Sometimes, it's pure circumstance, or our culture values something not worth valuing (wealth and violence) while ignoring important things, like education. Politicians are favored by the majority, which means they are exceptional individuals, we look up to. But they are not truly exceptional, by definition, but rather, they are exception in appearance. Therefore, the cheerleaders and jocks example is a perfect analogy.

" --voting, whether direct or indirect, creates a ruling class." A ruling class would mean continuity, same party and same people in power over and over again... power passed on to relatives or close friends. Or do you claim that those in th e opposite ends of the political spectrum are actually part of the same ruling class? That even tough they battle in public, they actually just want one of them to rule?
Partially. To some extent, yes. In America, they passed a new law which makes individual campaign contributions limitless. This is absolutely insane not only because it totally eliminates the possibility of there EVER being an independent President, but also because it opens the door for CEOs to embezzle money out of their companies and pass it off as a "private" campaign contribution. The same idea could also apply to any organized crime syndicates' laundered money or foreign govenrments laundering money in America, having an American citizen here give a "private" campaign contribution.

And then, of course, there are the electronic voting machines, which have been clearly shown to be easily tampered with, even right before our last election. Even with these voting machines, there was no need to eliminate a paper trail, unless you were trying to fix an election and make sure there's no evidence.

:shrug: doesn't really matter. He identified who he was talking about and took them to task for their ideas. If you had an objection it should really just have been limited to "I think you're talking about X group, not Y group."
I was implying, though, that all Anarchy eventually fails. It wasn't my intention to just prove one specific group as flawed, but to attack the basic principles it was founded on.

What I think would make a great deal of sense, also, is for Anarchic Conceptions to share his criticisms of Democracy and for Patrarch to share his criticisms of Anarchy, seeing how they're both completely contrary philosophies. Anarchic seemed to agree with my assessment of Democracy, but not Anarchy. And Patrarch seemed to agree with my assessment of Anarchy, but not Democracy. Right now, I'm wondering if it's a bit biased. :)
Plutophobia
18-03-2005, 20:02
Oh, and Patrach, I don't know too much about the British government or its economy. My father's Scottish and I've talked a bit about it with him, but he hasn't been there in like 30 years.

But anyway, I'd like to know if the GDP per capita is higher over Britain (rather than just the idea that the poor have TVs).

If it's true, then, well, there's a good chance I could be wrong, but I think that the higher standard of living came as a result of the immense amount of goverment programs--free healthcare, free college, etc. As a result of that, then they have more money to spend on other things.

After all, the poor get all of those services, but don't have to bear the tax burden of it as much as the middleclass or the upperclass.