NationStates Jolt Archive


Oh God, I can't believe I'm doing this

Klonor
18-03-2005, 05:56
I've made posts on religion, I've made posts on politics, I've made posts that cover ancient Greek literature, the works of William Shakespeare, and the Bible all at once. I've had multi-page examinations of modern-day cinema and the source material for the films. I've made posts on theoretical physics and possible methods of realistically surpassing the Speed of Light. But I have never sunk this low before. Never before have I made a post on Buffy: The Vampire Slayer.

Turth be told I don't even like Buffy that much, I'm a much bigger fan of Angel, the spin off that is greatly superior (In my own opinion). But right now I don't have access to a television and its much easier to find downloadable episodes of Buffy than Angel, so I've been watching it quite a bit recently and I've noticed a few things that don't quite add up.

In Buffy Season Five, Episode Seven (Fool for Love) Buffy is nearly mortally wounded while fighting a normal Vampire in the opening scene. She, and the rest of the gang, are a bit put off that she was beaten by a garden-variety Vampire when she's gone toe-to-toe with quite a few Super Vamps in her time and kicked their patooties. Everybody in the show knows that Death is gonna come for her eventually, and it wont be when she's 80 and has grandchildren, but they didn't think it'd be something so....normal. So, they went to the books to figure out what killed all the Slayers before her. All the Watchers kept detailed diaries of what went on while their Slayer was alive, but there seems to be almost no info on their Deaths. Unsatisfied with not knowing Buffy goes to the only person who can enlighten them on the subject, Spike. Afterall, he's killed two Slayers himself, a feat unmatched by any other Vampire in history.

Buffy and Spike talk for a while, come to blows more than once, and eventually come down to the nub: Slayers face Death every single second of every single day of their lives, they face it (and cause it) so often that it becomes a part of them and eventually they crave to experience it, if only to finally know what it's like. It's not the killer of the Slayer that wins, it's the Slayer that loses (Small but noticeable difference there). Spike points out that Buffy has more ties to Life than any Slayer before her (she still knows her family, she has friends, she dates, she's fallen in love) which is why she's lasted so long, but that eventually the crave to know will overcome her and she'll slip up in a fight (as she did earlier in the Episode). During this revelation we're treated to a glimpse of Spikes life as a Vampire; from when he's sired, up through the 1900's, and ending in 1977. Along the way we see the battles where he killed the two Slayers (China, Boxer Rebellion, 1900 and New York, 1977) and he reveals the kicks he got out of it.

Anyway, here's where we get into what I don't get. Buffy has lasted for so long because she has ties to the world (I went over that like five minutes ago, weren't you paying attention?) so it's logical to assume that the previous Slayers didn't have such ties. Or, if they did, they were much weaker (A few friends but no family, family but no friends, etc.) But what if they had ties that were just as strong? The second Slayer that Spike killed, in New York City in 1977 (He actually got his leather coat from her once he killed her), looked like just another Slayer in the little flashback in this episode. But, long after this episode aired, we learned that just isn't so. Many seasons later (I forget which specific episode) we discover that she had a son, a nice little boy who actually becomes a character on the show in the final season (He's the principal of the rebuilt Sunnydale High School). Now, not being a parent I can't say this for sure, but wouldn't having a son be a pretty damn strong tie to Life?

Spike isn't a normal Vampire, he's one of the most powerful and violent in history, but he's still not on the level of the some of the beasties that the Slayers have to face on a daily basis. If the "They want to know what Death is like" theory is correct it would explain how he managed to kill two Slayers when I normally would think it beyond him (Actually, the first Slayer does come damn close to killing him and it's only through events beyond Spikes control that she doesn't. Basically, he got lucky). Don't get me wrong, Spike is good, but he's just not that good. I'd give him one Slayer, but not two.

If the Slayers throughout history truly did die because they wanted to, why did this one (The one Spike killed in '77) die? She had a tie to the world, she had a very strong tie to the world. More than that, she had a tie to the world that was a part of her in way that friends really can't be. A child is one of dearest things in the world, and it just doesn't fit that she'd give up if she had one at home.

Anybody have an explanation?
Kejott
18-03-2005, 05:57
You're not alone. I can't watch more then 0.68 seconds of buffy without feeling the vomit rise in my throat.
Bitchkitten
18-03-2005, 06:01
Maybe Spike just lucked out and caught the last slayer on an off day. :D
Patra Caesar
18-03-2005, 06:02
Firstly: Hurray for the final season of Angel which came out on DVD this month (at least here in Australia).

Secondly: The theory could still be true, people with famalies kill themselves everyday. Perhaps deep within her mind she was thinking, 'If I die then my baby can live a normal life without having to flee everynight.' Plus it's not like people with famalies are immune to suicide...
Andaluciae
18-03-2005, 06:04
That's a detailed bit of thought...
Muktar
18-03-2005, 06:08
You're looking at things in black & white. The New York Slayer (catchy) had a tie to Life, but that single tie could easily have been beginning to waver by the time Spike came around. Also, having a son doesn't put her that high up if you try to find out what friends she had. Also, the child's presence may be negated by the lack of presence from a father. Just a hunch, though.
New Granada
18-03-2005, 06:10
I thought that you were going to convert to christianity like Shylock at the end of The Merchant of Venice.

If it is any consolation, when I found out you werent I didnt read the whole post you made, I dont watch TV.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 06:13
A good point, they never really do say if she had any friends. However, it is implied at some points. Before the New York Slayer fights Spike on the subway (Where he kills her) they fought earlier in the day in a park with her son there. The son hides, they two fight, and Spike runs off. She goes to her son, says he was such a good boy for hiding just like she taught him, then sends him to wait with somebody while she goes to pursue Spike. Now, that doesn't say for sure that she has friends, but she obviously does have some contact with the rest of society since she has a safe house for her son.
Patra Caesar
18-03-2005, 06:13
I thought that you were going to convert to christianity like Shylock at the end of The Merchant of Venice.

If it is any consolation, when I found out you werent I didnt read the whole post you made, I dont watch TV.

WTF??? Shylock did not convert to Christianity! :confused:
New Granada
18-03-2005, 06:14
WTF??? Shylock did not convert to Christianity! :confused:

I saw the damned movie twice in the last week and he sure did.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 06:15
Patra Caesar, just don't respond to him, he's a troll that's been following me around for months. I simply don't respond to his posts at all, I think it'd be better for your sanity if you didn't, either.
Harlesburg
18-03-2005, 06:17
Did you make a thread on Virgin Jews Too!?
New Granada
18-03-2005, 06:19
Patra Caesar, just don't respond to him, he's a troll that's been following me around for months. I simply don't respond to his posts at all, I think it'd be better for your sanity if you didn't, either.


Nonsense, slander.

The first paragraph of your post has reference to both RELIGION and WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE.

It was that, combined with having read the play and seen the film twice this week that led me to suspect that having found yourself similarly cornered, you'd followed Shylock's lead.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 06:20
Did you make a thread on Virgin Jews Too!?

Uh..........no?
New Granada
18-03-2005, 06:21
Movie? Shakespeare didn't write any movies... :confused: In the origional Shylock was the villian, pure and simple, he did not convert. What movie is this? Is it new?


Well, the play (which i've consequentially re-read in the last week) was adapted into a film, which was just released here in Sunny Phoenix last weekend. (released NY/LA back in december)

It stars Al Pacino and Jeremy Irons and Joseph Fiennes.

Pacino is fantastic in it. Irons is good too. It's well worth seeing if it shows where you live, if not, rent it.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 06:23
Stay on topic people.
New Granada
18-03-2005, 06:24
ANTONIO
So please my lord the duke and all the court
To quit the fine for one half of his goods,
I am content; so he will let me have
The other half in use, to render it,
Upon his death, unto the gentleman
That lately stole his daughter:
Two things provided more, that, for this favour,
He presently become a Christian;
The other, that he do record a gift,
Here in the court, of all he dies possess'd,
Unto his son Lorenzo and his daughter.

DUKE
He shall do this, or else I do recant
The pardon that I late pronounced here.

PORTIA
Art thou contented, Jew? what dost thou say?

SHYLOCK
I am content.

PORTIA
Clerk, draw a deed of gift.

SHYLOCK
I pray you, give me leave to go from hence;
I am not well: send the deed after me,
And I will sign it.

DUKE
Get thee gone, but do it.



As Mr. Shakespeare clearly states, Shylock converts to christianity.
Muktar
18-03-2005, 06:24
A good point, they never really do say if she had any friends. However, it is implied at some points. Before the New York Slayer fights Spike on the subway (Where he kills her) they fought earlier in the day in a park with her son there. The son hides, they two fight, and Spike runs off. She goes to her son, says he was such a good boy for hiding just like she taught him, then sends him to wait with somebody while she goes to pursue Spike. Now, that doesn't say for sure that she has friends, but she obviously does have some contact with the rest of society since she has a safe house for her son.I think a watcher could cover that job. Also, the watcher would most likely be in the "business associate" category than "friend." Those are just my thoughts, though.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 06:28
It very well might have been the Watcher that he was sent to stay with (The New York Slayers Watcher did resign after she was killed and then adopted and raised her son) but it's always seemed like Watchers are much more than mere business associates. They're always portrayed as a father (or mother) figure, caring for and nurturing the Slayer. Their deaths are always extremely hard on the Watchers and the Watchers Council even has to test Watchers to make sure they're keeping the proper emotional distance (Which most of them don't seem to do).

But I concede that nothing points to the NYS (New York Slayer) as having real friends.
Slap Happy Lunatics
18-03-2005, 06:32
I've made posts on religion, I've made posts on politics, I've made posts that cover ancient Greek literature, the works of William Shakespeare, and the Bible all at once. I've had multi-page examinations of modern-day cinema and the source material for the films. I've made posts on theoretical physics and possible methods of realistically surpassing the Speed of Light. But I have never sunk this low before. Never before have I made a post on Buffy: The Vampire Slayer.

Turth be told I don't even like Buffy that much, I'm a much bigger fan of Angel, the spin off that is greatly superior (In my own opinion). But right now I don't have access to a television and its much easier to find downloadable episodes of Buffy than Angel, so I've been watching it quite a bit recently and I've noticed a few things that don't quite add up.

In Buffy Season Five, Episode Seven (Fool for Love) Buffy is nearly mortally wounded while fighting a normal Vampire in the opening scene. She, and the rest of the gang, are a bit put off that she was beaten by a garden-variety Vampire when she's gone toe-to-toe with quite a few Super Vamps in her time and kicked their patooties. Everybody in the show knows that Death is gonna come for her eventually, and it wont be when she's 80 and has grandchildren, but they didn't think it'd be something so....normal. So, they went to the books to figure out what killed all the Slayers before her. All the Watchers kept detailed diaries of what went on while their Slayer was alive, but there seems to be almost no info on their Deaths. Unsatisfied with not knowing Buffy goes to the only person who can enlighten them on the subject, Spike. Afterall, he's killed two Slayers himself, a feat unmatched by any other Vampire in history.

Buffy and Spike talk for a while, come to blows more than once, and eventually come down to the nub: Slayers face Death every single second of every single day of their lives, they face it (and cause it) so often that it becomes a part of them and eventually they crave to experience it, if only to finally know what it's like. It's not the killer of the Slayer that wins, it's the Slayer that loses (Small but noticeable difference there). Spike points out that Buffy has more ties to Life than any Slayer before her (she still knows her family, she has friends, she dates, she's fallen in love) which is why she's lasted so long, but that eventually the crave to know will overcome her and she'll slip up in a fight (as she did earlier in the Episode). During this revelation we're treated to a glimpse of Spikes life as a Vampire; from when he's sired, up through the 1900's, and ending in 1977. Along the way we see the battles where he killed the two Slayers (China, Boxer Rebellion, 1900 and New York, 1977) and he reveals the kicks he got out of it.

Anyway, here's where we get into what I don't get. Buffy has lasted for so long because she has ties to the world (I went over that like five minutes ago, weren't you paying attention?) so it's logical to assume that the previous Slayers didn't have such ties. Or, if they did, they were much weaker (A few friends but no family, family but no friends, etc.) But what if they had ties that were just as strong? The second Slayer that Spike killed, in New York City in 1977 (He actually got his leather coat from her once he killed her), looked like just another Slayer in the little flashback in this episode. But, long after this episode aired, we learned that just isn't so. Many seasons later (I forget which specific episode) we discover that she had a son, a nice little boy who actually becomes a character on the show in the final season (He's the principal of the rebuilt Sunnydale High School). Now, not being a parent I can't say this for sure, but wouldn't having a son be a pretty damn strong tie to Life?

Spike isn't a normal Vampire, he's one of the most powerful and violent in history, but he's still not on the level of the some of the beasties that the Slayers have to face on a daily basis. If the "They want to know what Death is like" theory is correct it would explain how he managed to kill two Slayers when I normally would think it beyond him (Actually, the first Slayer does come damn close to killing him and it's only through events beyond Spikes control that she doesn't. Basically, he got lucky). Don't get me wrong, Spike is good, but he's just not that good. I'd give him one Slayer, but not two.

If the Slayers throughout history truly did die because they wanted to, why did this one (The one Spike killed in '77) die? She had a tie to the world, she had a very strong tie to the world. More than that, she had a tie to the world that was a part of her in way that friends really can't be. A child is one of dearest things in the world, and it just doesn't fit that she'd give up if she had one at home.

Anybody have an explanation?

Having read and absorbed what you wrote, (5 minutes I'll never get back. . . ), I have to conclude that at no time in history prior to Buffy were endorsement deals quite as lucrative and enticing as they are now.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 06:36
You really don't need to quote the entire opening post, odds are people in this thread have already read it.
Patra Caesar
18-03-2005, 06:41
As Mr. Shakespeare clearly states, Shylock converts to christianity.

You are right, I was wrong. Shylock was indeed forced to convert to Christianity.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 06:42
Once again, stay on topic. If you want to discuss Shakespeares works do it somewhere else.
Muktar
18-03-2005, 07:02
Once again, stay on topic. If you want to discuss Shakespeares works do it somewhere else.Kind of hard, considering my deduction kind of killed the discussion by solving the problem early on.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 07:04
Not really, all you did was make a guess that she had no connections beyond her child and that even that connection might have begun to waver. If she did have more connections, other family for example, then your deduction is wrong. You've ofered nothing to support your side of the argument.
Pracus
18-03-2005, 07:09
But remember what Principal Wood said. . . .slaying always came first and he ran a distant second. Even though she had ties to the world, his mother was a slayer first and foremost--whereas it could be argued that Buffy was only a slayer because she had to be.

Also, as I recall it (and its been a while) I thought that Spike said the other slayers died because they finally got sick of fighting, that they welcomed death because it would be rest for them. I could be wrong though, cause as I said, its been a while.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 07:12
You're kinda right, that is true about their relationship (Slaying first then her son) but it was Spike telling that to Wood after Wood tried to kill him. That 'The Mission' mattered more than either herself or her son.

But Buffy took the same stance, she gave up true love for 'The Mission' and often put the lives of others over her own. If she had a choice she probably would have chosen to never be chosen, but now tha she has been chosen (Complex aint it?) she's into it....well, she grew into it. Originally she really did try to avoid it but by the time this episode aired she was after 'The Mission', too (She said it plainly in the same episode where Wood tried to kill Spike, the reason she'd let Spike kill him if he tried anything like that again was because 'The Mission' mattered more than any of them)
Nekone
18-03-2005, 07:15
the Slayers were supposidly a secret life... one that the slayer could not share. yet Buffy had friends who not only knew, but helped her. that is the difference. the others were alone in their fight. They couldn't endanger the innocents so the slayers always choose to be alone. remember, there is only one Slayer (untill Buffy died and was brought back to life.) Fighting a never ending war does wear on the spirit of the fighter. Buffy lasted this long because she had friends who could help her and people she could turn to with her problems.
Domici
18-03-2005, 07:45
It very well might have been the Watcher that he was sent to stay with (The New York Slayers Watcher did resign after she was killed and then adopted and raised her son) but it's always seemed like Watchers are much more than mere business associates. They're always portrayed as a father (or mother) figure, caring for and nurturing the Slayer. Their deaths are always extremely hard on the Watchers and the Watchers Council even has to test Watchers to make sure they're keeping the proper emotional distance (Which most of them don't seem to do).

But I concede that nothing points to the NYS (New York Slayer) as having real friends.

The son was raised by the New York slayer's watcher.

As for her ties to life Spike's dime-store psycho-analysis was that she didn't really love him like a mother should. If she did, not only would she not have taken him vampire hunting, she wouldn't have taken him to Central Park in the middle of the night in the 70's.

As for Spike's mediocrity, they've implied that a soul is something that vampires can loose in relative terms. When the Judge showed up he said that he and his girlfriend "reeked of humanity." Being relativly ensouled would have been something that set him apart. Narrative imperative would demand that he be special.
Harlesburg
18-03-2005, 09:54
Uh..........no?
Sorry! :(
Pracus
18-03-2005, 13:18
the Slayers were supposidly a secret life... one that the slayer could not share. yet Buffy had friends who not only knew, but helped her. that is the difference. the others were alone in their fight. They couldn't endanger the innocents so the slayers always choose to be alone. remember, there is only one Slayer (untill Buffy died and was brought back to life.) Fighting a never ending war does wear on the spirit of the fighter. Buffy lasted this long because she had friends who could help her and people she could turn to with her problems.


I realize that this is off topic, but this seems like a place I can finally ask this question. The first time Buffy died, a new slayer was called (I am so blanking on her name at the moment--Nadia or something?). When that slayer died, Faith was called. All fine and dandy so far. But then Buffy died again . . . why wasn't another slayer called? Afterall, a slayer had died hadn't she? Or was it because there was already another slayer in existance when Buffy died to stop Glory?
Naughty Bits
18-03-2005, 13:31
I realize that this is off topic, but this seems like a place I can finally ask this question. The first time Buffy died, a new slayer was called (I am so blanking on her name at the moment--Nadia or something?). When that slayer died, Faith was called. All fine and dandy so far. But then Buffy died again . . . why wasn't another slayer called? Afterall, a slayer had died hadn't she? Or was it because there was already another slayer in existance when Buffy died to stop Glory?maybe there was... wasn't buffy trying to find the next slayer in the last couple of seasons?

I call this the Charmed syndrome. Charmed is a WB series about three witches who were supposedily the "Charmed Ones" (super witches) the legend goes that the line of witches were to cumilate to three sisters, and they would be the Charmed Ones.

but after season 3, one of the sisters dies and a fourth "Step-Sister" appeared... so WTF... does this mean that they were never the charmed ones because in reality there were 4 of them, not 3? the producers "glazed" over that and never really explained it... Same with Buffy I assume.
Katganistan
18-03-2005, 13:49
maybe there was... wasn't buffy trying to find the next slayer in the last couple of seasons?

I call this the Charmed syndrome. Charmed is a WB series about three witches who were supposedily the "Charmed Ones" (super witches) the legend goes that the line of witches were to cumilate to three sisters, and they would be the Charmed Ones.

but after season 3, one of the sisters dies and a fourth "Step-Sister" appeared... so WTF... does this mean that they were never the charmed ones because in reality there were 4 of them, not 3? the producers "glazed" over that and never really explained it... Same with Buffy I assume.

They "solved" this by making literally EVERY potential Slayer in the world a Slayer in the final episode... so we have to assume an army of supernaturally tough girls are out there ready to kick vampire ass and take names every day of the week.

Yeah.

There's a reason I stopped watching after the whole Dawn/Joyce dies arc.
Klonor
18-03-2005, 20:39
I realize that this is off topic, but this seems like a place I can finally ask this question. The first time Buffy died, a new slayer was called (I am so blanking on her name at the moment--Nadia or something?). When that slayer died, Faith was called. All fine and dandy so far. But then Buffy died again . . . why wasn't another slayer called? Afterall, a slayer had died hadn't she? Or was it because there was already another slayer in existance when Buffy died to stop Glory?

I've realised that myself and was even considering posting a topic on it, but I think I realised the answer.

When Buffy died the first time (Cause: Drowning) Kendra was called. When Kendra died (Cause: Vampire attack) Faith was called. But when Buffy died the second time (Cause: Mystical vortex doohicky) no third Slayer was called, and I think that's the key right there. Before Buffys mystical death all the Slayers were killed by conventional means (At least all the Slayers mentioned did). Stabbing, shooting, drowning, breaking, etc. Buffys death was mystical (That's actually what allowed her to be resurrected by her friends, if it had been a conventional death she would have stayed dead the second time) and, since it was mystic stuff that controlled the Slayers in the first place, no other Slayer was called.

Beware, this is all purely hypothetical, I have no proof.

On another note, I think Angel could have taken the army of Slayers that showed up in one of the last episodes of his show. There was only a dozen of them.
Pracus
18-03-2005, 23:59
I suppose that's one theory--though I've also wondered if its because there was a clear hierarchy and that Buffy's replacement (Kendra) had already been called. Since Faith also existed at the point there was no need for a new slayer? I wouldn't have put it past Joss to actually know what was going on, but he just didn't get to tell us.