NationStates Jolt Archive

Italy 'to pull troops from Iraq'

Italy is to begin withdrawing its troops from Iraq in September 2005, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4352259.stm

By September it should hardly matter.

Hmm? Interesting. I wonder where the US will find troops to replace them? I mean, such a large body of troops will be difficult to replace even with sufficient notice.

Why is everyone pulling troops out and Australia increasing it's commitment?
Because John Howard has got himself stuck somewhere no one else is (*rude words*).

:confused:

Which Italian?

You can't pull out until you come. Thus, the Italians are pulling out.

It's Italy.

And feel like shouting a resounding "YES!"

Show those gun-toting maniacs they can't "friendly fire" their way through their allies without facing the consequences. Italy is going. Let's hope the UK are next.

Dam right, now if only Mr Blair would pull his head out of Mr bush's arse and get our boys back with the rest of the world then we can all leave the US to the mess they have created.

It's Italy.

And feel like shouting a resounding "YES!"

Show those gun-toting maniacs they can't "friendly fire" their way through their allies without facing the consequences. Italy is going. Let's hope the UK are next.

Yes, you're obviously gifted with X-Ray vision and you're also psychic, so you can tell which speeding car is filled with explosives, and which one contains Italians laying on the floorboard of the car.

They passed through a layered defense roadblock, and it wasn't until the fourth layer that anyone actually fired at them. If anything, it shows restraint on the part of the Americans, and idiocy on the part of the driver.

Every layer has large signs in Arabic and English. Maybe the problem was that the signs weren't in Italian.

I doubt it really matters. By September, the security situation in Iraq will have significantly improved, especially with the Iraqi Army and Police Force finally recieving their full complements of equipment, and far better training.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the United States were able to turn over Iraq to a NATO-led Coalition before the Summer of 2006.

Yes, you're obviously gifted with X-Ray vision and you're also psychic, so you can tell which speeding car is filled with explosives, and which one contains Italians laying on the floorboard of the car.

They passed through a layered defense roadblock, and it wasn't until the fourth layer that anyone actually fired at them. If anything, it shows restraint on the part of the Americans, and idiocy on the part of the driver.

Every layer has large signs in Arabic and English. Maybe the problem was that the signs weren't in Italian.

Right and how many arabs use italian troop carriers!

I doubt it really matters. By September, the security situation in Iraq will have significantly improved, especially with the Iraqi Army and Police Force finally recieving their full complements of equipment, and far better training.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the United States were able to turn over Iraq to a NATO-led Coalition before the Summer of 2006.

And then, with NATO as a political cover, Italians will be back in Iraq...

And then, with NATO as a political cover, Italians will be back in Iraq...

more likly it would be the french or the germans. They do most of the NATO peacekeepying dutys.

more likly it would be the french or the germans. They do most of the NATO peacekeepying dutys.
No, the French only belong to NATO so they can vote. They don't actually do anything like send French troops to any NATO involvement (other than exercises).

They see membership in NATO as some sort of revolving door.

You can't pull out until you come. Thus, the Italians are pulling out.
Hey, cut that out! This is a family forum!!

Every layer has large signs in Arabic and English. Maybe the problem was that the signs weren't in Italian.Exactly. If some US soldiers can't be bothered to learn italian and write signs in italian at the check point, but would rather shoot at those who don't understand them, why should the italians stay there? Every italian soldier is not expected to learn english.

Dam right, now if only Mr Blair would pull his head out of Mr bush's arse and get our boys back with the rest of the world then we can all leave the US to the mess they have created.

Unfortunately, the UK helped them create it.

All European Nations should ditch NATO..

But back to the topic.. Berlusconi is a swine,he is only doing this to appease the already American-loathing Italian population, since he is having elections shortly.. So regretfully, unless the Italian goverment Does change, i see this more as just as political propaganda by berlusconi.

Exactly if some US soldiers can't be bothered to learn italian and write signs in italian at the check point, but would rather shoot at those who don't understand them, why should the italians stay there? Every italian soldier is not expected to learn english.
To be fair, the Americans should have known to expect them. The question is, where along the line did communication fail?

But back to the topic.. Berlusconi is a swine,he is only doing this to appease the already American-loathing Italian population, since he is having elections shortly.. So regretfully, unless the Italian goverment Does change, i see this more as just as political propaganda by berlusconi.

If the population of the nation to which he is a servant feels they should not be there then it is his duty to appease them.

If the population of the nation to which he is a servant feels they should not be there then it is his duty to appease them.
Herein lies the problem with democracy. What the people want is not necessarily the best thing. (I'm not referring to this situation specifically, simply that majority rule is not always fair).

since both sides have now declared this a pissing contest we may never know the truth about what happened

Herein lies the problem with democracy. What the people want is not necessarily the best thing. (I'm not referring to this situation specifically, simply that majority rule is not always fair).

That's not a democracy problem, it's a people problem.

The root of the issue is if the entire conflict itself is the best thing. Myself and apparently a large number of Italians do not believe it is. The beautiful thing about a democracy is the ability to fix mistakes.

Anyway the italian population didn't want to be in Iraq long before the incident. This was about time.

Yes, you're obviously gifted with X-Ray vision and you're also psychic, so you can tell which speeding car is filled with explosives, and which one contains Italians laying on the floorboard of the car.

They passed through a layered defense roadblock, and it wasn't until the fourth layer that anyone actually fired at them. If anything, it shows restraint on the part of the Americans, and idiocy on the part of the driver.

Every layer has large signs in Arabic and English. Maybe the problem was that the signs weren't in Italian.

A large art of the educated people in Europe can actually speak English, don't try and tell me, that an Italian who's working for the Italian inteligence with terrorist negotiation in Iraq cannot speak English.
According to the Italian exlanation, the car wasn't running more than 50 km/h at any time, besides the whole operation was coordinated with the yankees...

I just hope that Denmark will be the next country to draw their forces out, this is the first time ever that I'm ashamed of my country...

That's not a democracy problem, it's a people problem.

The root of the issue is if the entire conflict itself is the best thing. Myself and apparently a large number of Italians do not believe it is. The beautiful thing about a democracy is the ability to fix mistakes.
Like I said, I didn't take issue with the withdrawal or anything like it. I certainly don't support the war.

I merely took issue with the fact that your statement suggested that leaders should always follow what the majority of the people think. If they did, we'd all be fucked.

Like I said, I didn't take issue with the withdrawal or anything like it. I certainly don't support the war.

I merely took issue with the fact that your statement suggested that leaders should always follow what the majority of the people think. If they did, we'd all be fucked.

Yes, that is the case if there are not measures in place to make sure that certain principles are not overrun. Basic freedoms of that nation if you will.

This doesn't help either

US troops shoot dead Iraqi general: police
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200503/s1324274.htm

A large art of the educated people in Europe can actually speak English, don't try and tell me, that an Italian who's working for the Italian inteligence with terrorist negotiation in Iraq cannot speak English.
According to the Italian exlanation, the car wasn't running more than 50 km/h at any time, besides the whole operation was coordinated with the yankees...

I just hope that Denmark will be the next country to draw their forces out, this is the first time ever that I'm ashamed of my country...

According to the reporter who was shot, she and the intelligence officer were laying on the floorboards.

Kind of hard to read the signs from down there.

Are you saying that the US knew they were in the car? How would they know?

Like I said, they went through three checkpoints - where at each they were waved to stop and did not. It's surprising that they were shot at the fourth - and not the first. That, to someone who has run a checkpoint before, shows that it was restraint - and only at the last checkpoint was an attempt made to shoot at the car.

If the US had wanted to kill them, the M-1 that fired it's smallest machinegun at the car could have used its main gun. One round from the 120mm, and the reporter would have been Italy's first female astronaut.

All this "the yankees were trying to kill them" is crap - the US forces are the ones who rendered medical aid.

Which Italian?

ROLFMAO!!!! :D

All European Nations should ditch NATO..

If it weren't for Nato those European Nations would probably by communist and have little to no politic, social, or economic freedoms.

If it weren't for Nato those European Nations would probably by communist and have little to no politic, social, or economic freedoms.
So?

According to the reporter who was shot, she and the intelligence officer were laying on the floorboards.

Are you saying that the US knew they were in the car? How would they know?



The US command knew about the operation, they failed to communicate it to the temporary checkpoint.



Like I said, they went through three checkpoints - where at each they were waved to stop and did not. It's surprising that they were shot at the fourth - and not the first. That, to someone who has run a checkpoint before, shows that it was restraint - and only at the last checkpoint was an attempt made to shoot at the car.

If the US had wanted to kill them, the M-1 that fired it's smallest machinegun at the car could have used its main gun. One round from the 120mm, and the reporter would have been Italy's first female astronaut.

All this "the yankees were trying to kill them" is crap - the US forces are the ones who rendered medical aid.


They went through the previous checkpoints and were authorized to pass.
The fourth, temporary checkpoint did not receive any warning about the arriving car.
According to the Italian intelligence operative eye witness the US soldiers flashed a light once and a few seconds after they started firing.
And you don't want to fire a 120mm round with friendly troops nearby, DU rounds debris is not very healthy.
That said, the photos clearly show that the soldiers shot to kill and not to stop, as the bullet holes are mostly at head level and not aimed to the engine like was said.

Face the thruth, who's better trained, a bunch of national guard reserve troops or an experienced intelligence operative?
The act wasn't deliberate but unexperienced soldiers are much more likely to be trigger happy than an intelligence officer is likely to be careless, especially with who they were carrying.

This is the second time in a few years the US screws with Italian lives.
Do you really think we'd blindly believe to pentagon butt covering after Cermis?

If it weren't for Nato those European Nations would probably by communist and have little to no politic, social, or economic freedoms.

Wow, that's quite a statement. Care to back up your assertion that all European nations would probably be communist with little to no politic, social or economic freedoms?

Italy 'to pull troops from Iraq'

Italy is to begin withdrawing its troops from Iraq in September 2005, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4352259.stm

I sincerely doubt this is a sincere statement.
Elections are close and since the administration failed to do much else than raping the country they needed something to distract the people...
That's quite easy when you control 90% of media there.

Right and how many arabs use italian troop carriers!

(ahem) it wasn't a Troop Carrier, dude, it was a CAR. geezus...

This is the second time in a few years the US screws with Italian lives.
Do you really think we'd blindly believe to pentagon butt covering after Cermis?

Well, if the Pentagon wanted them dead, they would all be dead.
And you yourself are saying that no one communicated with the temporary checkpoint.
They would have had Delta do it - they do that sort of thing all the time - not some National Guard troops.

Additionally, I would remind you that it was documented that the Italians personally warned Aidid in Somalia that the Americans were coming for him - within seconds of the American helicopters taking off. They did this on a regular basis.

Should the US harbor any resentment for Italian duplicity in a UN operation?

The US command knew about the operation, they failed to communicate it to the temporary checkpoint.




They went through the previous checkpoints and were authorized to pass.
The fourth, temporary checkpoint did not receive any warning about the arriving car.
According to the Italian intelligence operative eye witness the US soldiers flashed a light once and a few seconds after they started firing.
And you don't want to fire a 120mm round with friendly troops nearby, DU rounds debris is not very healthy.
That said, the photos clearly show that the soldiers shot to kill and not to stop, as the bullet holes are mostly at head level and not aimed to the engine like was said.

Face the thruth, who's better trained, a bunch of national guard reserve troops or an experienced intelligence operative?
The act wasn't deliberate but unexperienced soldiers are much more likely to be trigger happy than an intelligence officer is likely to be careless, especially with who they were carrying.

This is the second time in a few years the US screws with Italian lives.
Do you really think we'd blindly believe to pentagon butt covering after Cermis?
It appears to be an unfortunate habit with US soldiers (the killing of friendly troops).

It appears to be an unfortunate habit with US soldiers (the killing of friendly troops).

It's what happens in war. Do you claim to be from a country that has been to war and never had a friendly fire incident in history?

Well, if the Pentagon wanted them dead, they would all be dead.
And you yourself are saying that no one communicated with the temporary checkpoint.
They would have had Delta do it - they do that sort of thing all the time - not some National Guard troops.

Additionally, I would remind you that it was documented that the Italians personally warned Aidid in Somalia that the Americans were coming for him - within seconds of the American helicopters taking off. They did this on a regular basis.

Should the US harbor any resentment for Italian duplicity in a UN operation?

Prove your statements.
Hearsay is exactly the same as BS, so if you don't find something to back up your statements i'm not going to even listen to this pathetic attempt to try gaining the moral upper hand, something murderers finds quite difficult to do.

The US command failed to communicate it to that makeshift roadblock, it wasn't something that was in charge of the people that you committed to protect.

That said i never stated the Pentagon wanted them dead, just that it's US command's fault and not anyone else's.

Wow, that's quite a statement. Care to back up your assertion that all European nations would probably be communist with little to no politic, social or economic freedoms?

Well... considering that up until Mr. Gorbachev admitted defeat, the soviet brand of Communism (tm) was extremely evangelical, and that soviet troops along the iron curtain borders out numbered the combined forces of Nato-with armoured support, mind...

...And that even with a conventional stalemate brought on by the presence of U.S. forces and their often-protested tactical thermonuclear weapons, the Soviets were still quite comfortable financing such wonderful public-service oriented groups as Baader-Meinhoff, Bregada Rossi, Action Directe' and others.
(nice folks, really-nevermind the bombings, bank robberies, or kidnapping/torture/murders. all just a misunderstanding, right?)

It's a fair bet that at minimum, without NATO, Germany, possibly France, and surrounding neighbours would have been brought into the Cult of Communism by force.

You see, it fits the Soviet M.O. of the times.

You're the one who has to prove that the US
a) is required to protect Italians at risk to their own lives from suicide car bombers
b) knew at all levels that that specific car contained those specific people at that specific time in that specific location
c) to read about the proven Italian duplicity, you should read the non-fiction book, Blackhawk Down.

You're the one who has to prove that the US
a) is required to protect Italians at risk to their own lives from suicide car bombers
b) knew at all levels that that specific car contained those specific people at that specific time in that specific location
c) to read about the proven Italian duplicity, you should read the non-fiction book, Blackhawk Down.

a) By authorizing the car into passing in a restricted allowance, guarded roads the US agreed to protect the passing car.

b) Any authorized car passage is communicated to ALL checkpoints (or at least usually is)

c) Blackhawk Down is not acceptable as proof. Bring some pentagon/US diplomatic papers and I may accept them.

On the other side Cermis can be easily proved by the court papers.
To those who don't know what Cermis is, it's the murder of over 20 EU citizens done by an US jet pilot who disregarded agreed safety rules and cut a skypass cable by flying at near ground level.

The pilot, who has been proven guilty was "condemned" with a temporary suspension from flying, pretty much the same as if he missed some medical appointment.

I suggest you to stop going within the US-Italy quarrels and accept the simple facts.

Then I suppose you'll be happy to know that the Italian withdrawal doesn't start until September, and since Italy is in NATO, and the NATO occupation force is slated to follow up in 2006, the Italians will be right back in Iraq.

Yes, I know about Cermis. It's too bad you won't accept the Blackhawk Down as proof, because it's common knowledge. Outside of Italy, of course.

There have been subsequent documentaries I've seen where they interview Somalis that fought for Aidid, and they tell the same thing.

Yes, i know very well how long the italian troops will stay, and it is exactly until september 2006 when democracy will be back here in Italy and troops will be withdrawn just like the spanish ones.
The current september 2005 announcement is just an election stunt as in the same day the government refinanced the mission for at least another year.

And about somalia i've got the same access to international sources as you, with the difference you failed to provide a single real proof to your statements.
Now i'm sorry but i'm going to have a long international phone call, ironically with a big US business firm...

If it weren't for Nato those European Nations would probably by communist and have little to no politic, social, or economic freedoms.


If it wasnt for that meteor that wiped out the dinossaurs, we wouldnt be having this conversation, now would we? What was fit in the past, doesnt necessarely as any use in the future.

Democracy "back" in Italy? When did it leave?

I thought you had changes of government the way that most people change their shirts.

It's what happens in war. Do you claim to be from a country that has been to war and never had a friendly fire incident in history?
No I'm from a country that has lost more troops in Iraq to the US than to Iraq forces.
I'm from a country who had armoured cars that were clearly marked attack by USAF craft, a country that could not give a man who repeatedly went back into the burning vehicle still under fire to rescue a comrade the highest medal of honour because the even did not take place in combat. It took place when driving along a road and being attacked by a 'friend'. a country that had aircraft with troops and diplomats shot down, when that craft was clearly firendly.
Yes it does happen in war but some countries troops are more prone to it that others.
It comes down to quantity rather than quality.

It comes down to quantity rather than quality.

We seem to have fewer incidents statistically than other major wars we've been engaged in historically. You should see how bad WW II and Korea were.

I've spoken to many US WW II veterans of the European campaign, and they all tell stories of how the UK and US air forces strafed and bombed them, not the Germans, on a regular basis. One even has the control stick from a Typhoon that his unit shot down after it strafed them and killed some of them.

In Korea, there's a UK regiment that was retreating from Chinese forces along a valley - the US knew they were coming. And nearly all of them were killed and wounded by US aircraft and ground forces at the mouth of the valley.

IIRC, it's a British unit that is allowed to wear their regimental flash on the front and back of their berets.

The problem in modern combat is that if you have even a single incident (a single aircraft attack, for instance), it's a lot more deadly than it used to be.

It's not right - but there's less than there used to be. We just hear about every incident now because that's how news works today.

If we had CNN during WW II, Hitler would have won WW II, just because there were so many Allied friendly fire incidents.

Unfortunately, Berlusconi is a flip-flopper. (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_world_story_skin/480072%3fformat=html)

The man should get himself a backbone.

If he wants to listen to his people, and his people say "Go!", then he should go. If he wants to listen to Bush, and Bush says "Stay!" then he should stay - and face the consequences in the next election. But first telling his people that he will "Go" and then telling Bush that he'll "Stay" is just damn spineless grovelling.

Democracy "back" in Italy? When did it leave?

I thought you had changes of government the way that most people change their shirts.

May 13th 2001, when majority dictatorship stepped in.
If you don't believe me they changed the constitution a few days ago removing a large part of power check and balances, in a very similar way to what happened 80 years ago.
Also, the actual president owns or controls 90% of the national media, of course meaning that aside from a few papers it's like having fox on all channels and journals.

Unfortunately, Berlusconi is a flip-flopper. (http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_world_story_skin/480072%3fformat=html)

The man should get himself a backbone.

If he wants to listen to his people, and his people say "Go!", then he should go. If he wants to listen to Bush, and Bush says "Stay!" then he should stay - and face the consequences in the next election. But first telling his people that he will "Go" and then telling Bush that he'll "Stay" is just damn spineless grovelling.

He has a big backbone... How do you think you climb full speed through forbes ratings? Now he's just "fixing" some "accidents" he had with justice like fraud, corruption and so on... Watch citizen Berlusconi from PBS for a quite realistic view of the thing...
Boy, you don't imagine how people is regretting here that they voted him in 2001.

I've heard this great story from a friend of mine who was in the army (British). An Italian truck was driving along a road in Iraq in front of a British truck when they heard gunfire in the distance. The Italian truck in front came to a stop and all of the soldiers inside abandoned the truck and ran back down the road towards the camp. No offence to Italians but you guys (apart from the Romans and WWI involvement) currently have a lousy military reputation. I mean, WWII was farcical for Italy, as was the period between the wars. I mean, using poison gas on tribesmen, that was pretty low. I'm reminded of another war maxim I've been told: 'The Italian tanks have 1 gear forward and 4 gears back". Not trying to influence the argument, just giving the general opinion shared of the Italian armed forces in general by most of my compatriots.

I doubt it really matters. By September, the security situation in Iraq will have significantly improved, especially with the Iraqi Army and Police Force finally recieving their full complements of equipment, and far better training.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the United States were able to turn over Iraq to a NATO-led Coalition before the Summer of 2006.


ya you keep thinking that LOL

I've heard this great story from a friend of mine who was in the army (British). An Italian truck was driving along a road in Iraq in front of a British truck when they heard gunfire in the distance. The Italian truck in front came to a stop and all of the soldiers inside abandoned the truck and ran back down the road towards the camp. No offence to Italians but you guys (apart from the Romans and WWI involvement) currently have a lousy military reputation. I mean, WWII was farcical for Italy, as was the period between the wars. I mean, using poison gas on tribesmen, that was pretty low. I'm reminded of another war maxim I've been told: 'The Italian tanks have 1 gear forward and 4 gears back". Not trying to influence the argument, just giving the general opinion shared of the Italian armed forces in general by most of my compatriots.

No offence taken, we know that our armed forces sucks, that's why most people did not want to send them anyway, though your story seems a little far-fetched...

No offence taken, we know that our armed forces sucks, that's why most people did not want to send them anyway, though your story seems a little far-fetched...

I've met Italian infantry before, and it does sound far-fetched. They don't suck like you think, either.