NationStates Jolt Archive

Interesting news article on CTV news last night.
A joint task force headed up by a former Canadian politician, John Manley, is suggesting that Canada, The U.S. and Mexico create a single security zone, Fortress North America.
Each country would retain its sovreignty, but departments such as Border security,Immigration, Customs etc would effectively operate under a single set of rules.
The idea is similar, just not to the same level of cooperation seen in the European Union. The exsisting borders and red tape governing people and goods crossing the Can/US and Mex/US would dissapear. The focus would be on entry into the continent.
Now, as a Canadian, I have always opposed the idea of becoming "annexed" by the United States, but this idea has merits.
What do you think?

What's the US going to do with the Mexican immigrants? Are they going to keep on catching them with helicopters from the desert or will it be easier for mexicans to move in the US or Canada?
This sounds a bit like the problems that will occur if Turkey joins the EU.

No thanks. If Americans want to lock themselves up (and maybe even throw away the key?), they're welcome to do so. I prefer not to live life behind walls (or security perimeters, however you care to define them).

The EU works, reasonably well as the levels of economic development are more or less equivalent across the whole region. (Some countries are more industrialised, others more agricultural, but they are more or less equivalent.) For North America this is true of the USA and Canada, but Mexico is in a different phase of development.

Additionally the EU is pretty much homogeneous with regard to culture. All the member states are part of the Western European culture to date (Greece being the main exception bein Orthodox culture and maybe more allied to Russian culture than Western European. Again Canada and the USA fit together culturally (sorry Canadians, but you do know it is true), whereas Mexico is a split culture state, like Turkey. It is not clear if Mexican culture is Latin American or North American.

AN alliance of just two countries does not need all the Bureaucracy thet the EU has. Just an open border and mutual defence agreement. This the Canadians apparently don't want anyway.

Conclusion, a waste of time trying to mount this "Fortress North America" as Mexico does not fit and Canada does not want to.

tag (no time now)

What's the US going to do with the Mexican immigrants? Are they going to keep on catching them with helicopters from the desert or will it be easier for mexicans to move in the US or Canada?

There would be no helicopters, Mexicans would be free to come and go as they pleased. What is the bigger concern, Mexicans looking for work, or terrorists blowing up buildings?

If Americans want to lock themselves up (and maybe even throw away the key?), they're welcome to do so. I prefer not to live life behind walls (or security perimeters, however you care to define them).

We (Canadians) already have our own security perimeter, all this would do is get rid of the one that seperates Canada/USA/Mexico and strengthen the one that surrounds us all.

Additionally the EU is pretty much homogeneous with regard to culture. All the member states are part of the Western European culture to date (Greece being the main exception bein Orthodox culture and maybe more allied to Russian culture than Western European. Again Canada and the USA fit together culturally (sorry Canadians, but you do know it is true), whereas Mexico is a split culture state, like Turkey. It is not clear if Mexican culture is Latin American or North American.

I can't agree with this. Europe is far more culturally diverse in language, history, lifestyles etc than exsists in North America. I grew up in England and can remember the scare mongers telling us that the European Union (The Common Market it was called then) would culturally ruin England. The country would be overrun with Spanish transient workers etc.
The reality today is more English youth go to Spain to work in the huge tourism/vacation industry than Spanish farm workers head to England.
Englands problems today come from massive influxes of refugees coming from outside the European Union.

Coöperation between nations is always good, but I doubt it would have a great effect against terrorism.

Yes, a common set of protocols and cooperation initiatives would be useful both against terrorism and the drugs trade. It wouldn't mean that Mexicans can cross freely into the US, since no country is giving up on their sovereignity at their borders, but it is a logical step after economic cooperation.

I can't agree with this. Europe is far more culturally diverse in language, history, lifestyles etc than exsists in North America. .

This is absolute not true. I to lived in Europe and can tell you that there is more diversity in the US than in Europe. Within 3 blocks of where I live here in the states I bet I can find 50 different nationalities. Most likely dozens of languages. My household alone speaks 3 fluent languages plus a bit of 3 others.

Anyway back to the main post. I think this is a good idea. It would benefit all three nations I believe. Glad to see someone outside of the US have a good idea for a solution to N America's security dilema.

well why not I suppose.... all of the US seniors can move to Canada for cheaper prescriptions, all of the poor Mexicans can move to the US to find jobs, and all of the US corporations can move to Mexico to find cheap workers (which might be a little confusing).

seriously though, NORAD is supposed to be about North American defense, and enlarging its responsibilities would be a good step. But I think three seperate border control stops has its advantages. With any luck, the Canadians and Mexicans will catch the idiot terrorists (and some of the competent as well) and the US border control will hopefully get the rest.

The Canadians have actually been extremely helpful in this regard, anyone remember the Millinium bomb plot? Canadian information was very helpful in that case.

Thanks by the way Canada.

This is absolute not true. I to lived in Europe and can tell you that there is more diversity in the US than in Europe. Within 3 blocks of where I live here in the states I bet I can find 50 different nationalities. Most likely dozens of languages. My household alone speaks 3 fluent languages plus a bit of 3 others.

Anyway back to the main post. I think this is a good idea. It would benefit all three nations I believe. Glad to see someone outside of the US have a good idea for a solution to N America's security dilema.

I think we are on a different train of thought to each other. My assertion that Europe is more historically and culturally diverse than North America is from the point of view of the different nations coming together. Each nation having its own identity, language, history and culture. You are quite right to point out that within so many blocks of where you live you might find 50 different "nationalities" That is the ethnic diversity of your local population. The same fact would also be true in London or Paris etc.

The primary reason for this idea is commercial- long border waits mean increased spending. For possibly the largest 3-way trading system in the world, this adds up to a lot of money. With an integrated border security system, wait times would decrease.

The primary reason for this idea is commercial- long border waits mean increased spending. For possibly the largest 3-way trading system in the world, this adds up to a lot of money. With an integrated border security system, wait times would decrease.
Of course commerce would be improved. If you have a customs office, say, in San Luis Potosí where you can inspect a truck carrying autoparts to Detroit, seal it, stamp an electronic tag, and make sure through electronic means that it doesn't get opened until it gets to Detroit, then you don't have to worry about it picking up illegals, drugs, bombs or terrorists along the way.
Everybody along the route gets the information about this truck and it can be tracked, speeding everything along the way.

I thought John has quitted politic at the same time as Jean Chrétien...

Yeah. The US, Canada, and Mexico building Fortress N. America. And how exactly do they propose we secure that border? What are we gonna do, dig a moat around the whole shit?

Yeah. The US, Canada, and Mexico building Fortress N. America. And how exactly do they propose we secure that border? What are we gonna do, dig a moat around the whole shit?
We have two of the biggest oceans in the world, how big a moat do we need?

Mexico and Canada aren't pissing anyone off to need to fend off an invasion. I thought Canada more or less already said no to being suckered into footing part of our security bill.

I think the US and Canada should form one giant country called 'Mexico Sucks', but does anybody listen to me?
Well...they do...but thats beside the point!

I thought John has quitted politic at the same time as Jean Chrétien...

He did. This suggestion came from a think-tank from the private sector, comprising of Canadians/Americans and Mexicans.
He did say he will consider running for the leadership of the Liberals in the future, so he still has aspirations to be PM.

I think this would be a good idea, but the terrorist reason in the poll is not the main one. There are countless other benefits (and drawbacks) to this idea, but I think it would be good overall.

I would personally advocate this, plus the integration of Britain, Japan, and Australia (And New Zealand, but they're probably inoffensive enough for even the terrorists not to bother them.). This is because I see these as being some of the closest cultures on the planet. Although Japan stands out, she's still a strongly capitalist, democratic place - and we certainly have room for one of the safest, wealthiest nations in such an alliance.*

Mind you, that's just me. I'm all for global unification, and even a Canadian-American alliance is another step.

*Of course, I do realise that this raises different issues, because those places are not physically linked or even close to the USA, but the more the merrier, yes? We pool our resources and work together, and we can do much more than ever we could alone.

In addition, there would be benefits beyond terrorist prevention. Indeed I don't think the prime abilities of such an alliance would be in terrorist prevention, I believe it would be in cultural, economic, and social bonds being grealty strengthened, which makes everyone stronger, and ultimately enables us to better fight terrorism a long time from now.