NationStates Jolt Archive

A thought came to me one night whilst I was watching god awfull late night television.

American guns are getting us all killed.

Canada does not have a lenient gun laws at all. To get a conventional nine millimetre handgun and some bullets, you need to have a reason, plus a good record and a shitload of money.

But if this is the case, why are all these kids running around with guns? Why is this happening? It does not make any sense. These are the guys who should not have guns at all, and yet there armed to the teeth, always walking around with pistols and taking each other out just for a little bit more of the market.

How could this be happening?

But it's so very obvious! Were getting guns from the yankees!

Seeing as the guns these kids have, under the circumstances, are very illegal, there is, of course, money to be made.

See, these guys are always fighting, and I'm no exception, to get them, and or there people, a bigger piece of the market, always, constant fighting.

And so, obviously, you want to win. One way to do that is to have a better weapon. What can beat a piece of chain, and crowbar or a knife hands down? Well, of course, a gun.

And so one guy gets a gun. To win, all the other guys decide they cannot be outgunned, and so they too try to get guns.

And so soon, there is a massive demand for guns, and some good enterprising entrepeneurs (in most cases, our friends, the Hell's Angels) decided to capitalise on this lucky situation.

Seeing as there is a big demand for guns, but no legal sellers to satisfy this demand, people are willing to pay astranomical prices for the safety of a piece.

And so the angels take a drive down to america, where handguns are cheap and roam free, and load up on all kinds of guns and ammunition.

The guys selling them those guns are happy. The know where there going, they know what the guns are to be used for, but they don't care, there making money!

And so up across the border goes the guns, and the guns are sold happily to the violent streeters, allowing them to kill each other with beautifull efficency, and thousands and thousands of dollars (obrained from the profitable drug bussiness which our gun buying friends are fighting over) go to our friends the Hell's Angels, them being a nationwide crime sindycat, allowing them to do ever more things, and live in luxury.

Just fucking beautifull.

When Canada tries to legalize weed, which would do so many things (save us thousands of dollars worth of goverment money spent on policing, imprisonment, and stop the flow of money from the weed bussiness going into the hands of crime organizations) despite public opnion, we cannot do so anyway, as the United States would do most terrible things to the border, ripping our economy to shreds, because there would be the chance of more of a product illegal there going into there country.

Fair enough.

But there godamn guns are illegal here. But do you see them do anything? Why do we have to do our best so that things illegal in america stay out of america (i.e. keeping weed illegal.) when they do not do anything to stop yankee guns coming up here.

Just a thought.

Now, I am no pot head. I think weed smokers are jackasses, really. But that's not the point. It doesn't matter that I think that. This is a debate about unfairness an hypocrisy.

I am always open for CIVIL debate of my opnions.

(Please not, I have not, of course, presented the entire story here. That would take me days.

I can't include everything. I have isolated on subject. Please remember that while here)

(Please read the whole thing before posting or I will peper you with idle threats.)

(A few helpfull tips of the ignorant.

Canada is the second largest exporter of pot to the United States. 90% of pot made in Canada is made for export to the United States. There a crime gangs and drug rackets all across the country that almost all of the income comes from pot export to the United States. Competition among these groups, espicially when in close proximaty to each other, for the american market, it fierce, to say the least.)


(I could have written this much more elegantly, but I am much to lazy. For that, I apologize.)

A gun never killed me.

Excellent post.

As long as drugs are illegal, there will be gangs, there will be demand for guns, there will be violence, there will be overflowing prisons full of non-violent offenders and addicts, and there will be broken families.

I haven't given much thought to the Canadian/US gun and drug relationship till now. You know America would probably go as far as sanctions if Canada dared legalize pot. If there's one thing you can count on, it's American arrogance towards drugs. Yet Canada is helpless to stop cheap American guns from crossing its borders.

Other people have written about similarly harmful relationships between America and Columbia, how destructive the "War on Drugs" is to everyone involved.

Long ago I came to the conclusion that the only possible solution is complete and total legalization of all drugs.

But the odds of that ever happening...I feel powerless.

How very kind of you to say.

I thought that I would be berrated as a stupid Canuck, after all, this was written in anger.

As for legalizing all drugs, I don't know. I have seen what some drugs can do to people. Almost every day, I see guys under the overpass on my way home, shells of people, burned out from booze or coke or weed.

We'd be better off if the goverment could have them all illegal, and make them impossible to create, non-existant.

But seeing as we are not in a fantasy world, I believe we may as well stop all the killing. I mean, the only reason this market exists is because it's illegal. Were it legal, we could even tax the shit out of it, among other things.

Pot is just like smoking and drinking at the same time, really, even the stuff with really lots of THC. You can do just as much damage to yourself with hard liquor as with weed.

But as for drugs being legal doing away with gangs, no, that would not happen. There would still be gangs and violence.

But you are right that in the loss of the valuable illegal drug(or any other contraband) market, criminal organizations across the place would be significantly less powerfull and rich.

But anyway, I am rambling again.

I don't mean to sound arrogant in saying this(which I do), but I must say that you are much less blind than most American's on the corruption of the American goverment.

I too, would not be surprised, if Canada made weed essentially the same drug catagory as tobaco, and the United States of America hit us with crippling sanctions, much like the (illegal) sanctions on softwood lumber and cattle.

Of course, those situations are not exactly the same, but it just empasiezes that the United States goverment will not hesistate to destroy our economy to get there own way.

Again, I sound arrogant in saying this, but, well, what can yah do, eh?

You just gave a great reason why the folks down in the Lower 48 shouldn't outlaw guns. We'd just get them from Mexico anyway. Seeing how many people cross the border illegally, it shouldn't be a problem to get the guns over.

I keep telling people it's not the guns, it's the stupid war on drugs that's causing all of this.

You just gave a great reason why the folks down in the Lower 48 shouldn't outlaw guns. We'd just get them from Mexico anyway. Seeing how many people cross the border illegally, it shouldn't be a problem to get the guns over.


That doesn't make any sense.

Yah, I'm sure there's gonna be thousands of Mexican gun runners coming up to South Dekota to sell you guns...If your going to make a stupid nonsensical argument, please don't bother.

And where, might I ask, did I say you should outlaw guns?

That doesn't make any sense.

Yah, I'm sure there's gonna be thousands of Mexican gun runners coming up to South Dekota to sell you guns...If your going to make a stupid nonsensical argument, please don't bother.

And where, might I ask, did I say you should outlaw guns?
Yeah, and I'm sure there's going to thousands of drug runners from Columbi...oh wait. Try again Alexias.

The war on drugs is necessary. I can understand legalizing marijuana, but do you really want to legalize cocaine? LSD? PCP? heroin? meth? crack? There is always going to be something that needs to remain contraband, and the drug runners will just push that instead. I dont think you really want to legalize everything. There are alot of drugs that really need to remain illegal.

I can understand legalizing marijuana, but do you really want to legalize cocaine? LSD? PCP? heroin? meth? crack?
Yes. Just have extremely harsh penalties for misuse. Take some meth? Permanently stricken from heart transplant lists. Kill someone while drunk? Death. Etc., etc.

You just gave a great reason why the folks down in the Lower 48 shouldn't outlaw guns. We'd just get them from Mexico anyway. Seeing how many people cross the border illegally, it shouldn't be a problem to get the guns over.


People smuggle guns into mexico because they are illegal in mexico.

Its never a good idea to take a gun into mexico, you can end up in a mexican prison. It gets in the news rather frequently here in arizona.

So America's love of the gun is plaguing Mexico as well. I did not know that. when will you yanks come to your senses and bury your guns?

When will you yanks come to your senses and bury your guns?
Naw, we're going to use them as plowshares! You know, the reforging swords as plowshares thing was a classic, so we figured we'd follow suit.

Unfortunately, there have been a few deaths in our tests to determine the best way to plow a furrow with shotgun blasts. But no matter, our cause will succeed!

When will the non-yanks realize that it isn't the guns? For the love of Bob, it isn't the guns. Get it through your puny little non-yank heads. We give you thousands upon thousands of statistics and flawless arguments, and what do we get in return? "But you're making us look like freedom haters! Think of all the children that you've shown me don't get killed! Forget about the millions of people who successfully defend themselves!"

So, yeah.

Well-argued, Alexias, despite the spelling. You should legalize drugs. America would be forced to legalize them as well or face a complete collapse of the system. Sanctions wouldn't last long, anyway. As much as we like to think otherwise, America does need the rest of the world, and Canada still has some large oil deposits.

Based on the obvious applications of supply and demand, I tend to think that all drugs should be legalized. However, I question the extent to which businesses should be able to sell addictive products. It takes the free out of free market.

Alexias, you need to realize, either nobody has guns, or everyone needs guns. And both sides have to volunteer to give up guns, and criminals wont. They will always have a way of getting them.

Statistics show that gun ownership is unrelated to gun crimes. If your criminals didnt get them down here, im sure the chinese would be more than happy to pick up the trade, etc etc. Your best chance is to legalize guns, so that your civilians have more of a chance.

I keep telling people it's not the guns, it's the stupid war on drugs that's causing all of this.


Canada doesn't have a war on drugs. We have a campaign called "Let coarperate gangsters run the country."

Yeah, and I'm sure there's going to thousands of drug runners from Columbi...oh wait. Try again Alexias.



See, it's Mexicans bringing guns into Mexico, so that they can fight over the American market. Some situation.

You lose, crackerjack.

The war on drugs is necessary. I can understand legalizing marijuana, but do you really want to legalize cocaine? LSD? PCP? heroin? meth? crack? There is always going to be something that needs to remain contraband, and the drug runners will just push that instead. I dont think you really want to legalize everything. There are alot of drugs that really need to remain illegal.


I never said that I wanted all those things legalized.

All I said is that I want it so that American guns, which are being sold to violent criminals in Canada, illegaly, to stop coming into Canada.

Until this happens, American politicians who complain about Canadian drugs are being hypocritical and stupid.

Also, I want the Canadian public to be able to choose what will and what will not be a controlled substance, in a manner which will be best for us, without having to worry about yankee extortion.

I agree.

Hardcore drugs cannot be legalized in the same way that weed would be, and almost all Canadians feel the same way.

So America's love of the gun is plaguing Mexico as well. I did not know that. when will you yanks come to your senses and bury your guns?



That's not what I'm saying.

Although I feel that the American gun laws are fattaly flawed, I will not try to stand in the way of them shooting each other as much as they like.

However, I would like it if the little children in my neighbourhood could play outside without the danger of them getting a nine millimetre bullet in the skull from a man with a yankee gun, who was aiming for there big brother.

That's all I'm saying.

When will the non-yanks realize that it isn't the guns? For the love of Bob, it isn't the guns. Get it through your puny little non-yank heads. We give you thousands upon thousands of statistics and flawless arguments, and what do we get in return? "But you're making us look like freedom haters! Think of all the children that you've shown me don't get killed! Forget about the millions of people who successfully defend themselves!"

So, yeah.

Well-argued, Alexias, despite the spelling. You should legalize drugs. America would be forced to legalize them as well or face a complete collapse of the system. Sanctions wouldn't last long, anyway. As much as we like to think otherwise, America does need the rest of the world, and Canada still has some large oil deposits.

Based on the obvious applications of supply and demand, I tend to think that all drugs should be legalized. However, I question the extent to which businesses should be able to sell addictive products. It takes the free out of free market.


You are quite right.

Were the guns not there, they would stab each other, or beat each other to death, in fact, I've seen people without guns do it.

However, the guns do not help.

Also, the complete legalization of all mind altering substances is something I do not agree with.

It's not realistic.

As for people who succesfully defend themselves? And all your "perfect arguments"? Well, again, I think that's crap.

As I said, I belive the American gun situation is completly rediculous, but I have my own country to worry about, so I will try my best to leave you be.



As for sanctions, I don't know. It would certainly hurt the American economy, but us infinitly more so.

And, you see, our oil is Canadian owned, and the lack of Canadian oil would drive up the profits for American companies, who are essentially the people who make the kings down south.

And so, I don't know.

I don't think we would hold out to well.

However, it is refreshing to talk to American's who are not ignorant, albeit only on the internet.

Alexias, you need to realize, either nobody has guns, or everyone needs guns. And both sides have to volunteer to give up guns, and criminals wont. They will always have a way of getting them.

Statistics show that gun ownership is unrelated to gun crimes. If your criminals didnt get them down here, im sure the chinese would be more than happy to pick up the trade, etc etc. Your best chance is to legalize guns, so that your civilians have more of a chance.



Again, that is bullshit.

Sure, of course SOME people will always get a hold of guns.

But lets say you want to buy a razor to shave your face, but no stores in the whole city sell them.

Sure, SOME people, the people who have the money and are lucky, will get some razor blades, but there won't be as many razor blades.

Same goes for guns.

Canadians would never tolerate the yankee gun laws, and we do not want or need your outdate rag of a constituition. We have our own, which is best of us.

Again, we don't need your system and your gun laws.

We need you to stop pumping guns into our godamn country. That's what we need.



And as for your statistics, well who gives a fuck!

Man, sure, perhaps if everyone in the country had a gun, a shitload of them would not use them, but your not selling them to office workers or journalists or milkmen, who would have no use for a gun, your selling them to drug dealers and gang bangers! Yes, that's right, people who will use them! People who will drive by in there car and squeeze the triger, man!

I don't think you understand!

I know I may sound rude, and I truly apologize if I do, it's just it's a rather emotional subject for me.

I keep telling people it's not the guns, it's the stupid war on drugs that's causing all of this.


give it up!

Just like pharma companies invest more in a vaccine than a cure,

govt invests in continuing problems. There is no vested interested in solving these problems

The war on drugs escalates(by virtue of drugs seized) yet street prices continue to fall, fall regardless of even inflation. What rational person can claim the war is winning? The effects are obvious. a) more people in jail for victemless crimes, b) real prices for drugs are crashing. Losing on both fronts.

The war on poverty will never succeed(because the govt keeps redefining poverty). At some point I will be considered poor I am sure, if only because I have only 1 car.

I think that 12% of the American public is classyfied as poor. Yet they have more than any middle class guy I know of in India. By more I mean a HELL of a lot more. Caloric intake, cars, ac, living space ect. But, because of the war on povery we all have to pay more to fight this disease. Yeah right. its so miserable to live with an AC and the govt paying for CABLE and your utilities.

What happened to poor meaning you had to struggle to find shelter and food? Cause thats what its like in the rest of the world.

And as for your statistics, well who gives a fuck!


Yes, as we all know, we should never do anything that is proven to work by statistics and good science. We should do the exact opposite, because we think it's correct anyway.

While you're at it, I have a large collection of other statistics and decisions on other subjects, and I'll be sure to post them so that you can make sure that Canadian politicians you elect steer clear of anything that makes sense.

Nice one on those gun registrations. Apparently, some of your provinces are absolutely refusing to enforce them, because the Federal government didn't plan on it costing billions of dollars. Nice.

Yes, your registration plan is working just as predicted. Are you sure all the people who own illegal guns are registering theirs?

Of course, I choose to place the blame squarely where it belongs on these particular gun deaths: On the drug dealers. And on their customers, who make it so lucrative a business -- because if there weren't millions to be made, these creeps wouldn't be murdering each other and whomever else is unlucky enough to be in the crossfire.

Of course, I choose to place the blame squarely where it belongs on these particular gun deaths: On the drug dealers. And on their customers, who make it so lucrative a business -- because if there weren't millions to be made, these creeps wouldn't be murdering each other and whomever else is unlucky enough to be in the crossfire.

I keep telling people that, but for some reason, they think it's the guns.

Stop the war on drugs, and the majority of violence stops. Just like it did at the end of Prohibition.

All I said is that I want it so that American guns, which are being sold to violent criminals in Canada, illegaly, to stop coming into Canada.

Shouldn't you be talking to your own border patrol then instead of us Yanks?

Shouldn't you be talking to your own border patrol then instead of us Yanks?
Yes, and they should put a few billion more into their non-working registration program that some provinces are refusing to enforce.

A gun never killed me.
...yet.

Yes, as we all know, we should never do anything that is proven to work by statistics

Exactly. Statistics are very often inacurate.

Listen, if you want to start screwing around with statistics, basing everything on statistics, society is going to collaspe, crackerjack.

For example, does a man who stole a gun own it? Do they pole him? Do they know he owns the gun? He didn't buy it from a store, he stole it, or bought it from a guy who stole it, or any number of other things.

Either way, when he goes out and ices a guy, he doesn't legaly own the gun, and therefore doesn't enter into your statistics. And that's just one example.

While you're at it, I have a large collection of other statistics and decisions on other subjects, and I'll be sure to post them so that you can make sure that Canadian politicians you elect steer clear of anything that makes sense.

Again, it's probably a good thing to steer clear of inacurate statistics, and you know what, I have a feeling that if they want stastictics, they'll get it
from, oh, I don't know, CSIS, or maybe Statistics Canada, and not some guy called Whispering Legs.


one on those gun registrations. Apparently, some of your provinces are absolutely refusing to enforce them, because the Federal government didn't plan on it costing billions of dollars. Nice.

Yes, your registration plan is working just as predicted. Are you sure all the people who own illegal guns are registering theirs?


Most Canadians see the gun registry for the massive failure that it is, Whisper my man, we don't like it anymore than you do.

In fact, the fact the illegal guns don't get registered is an argument repeated by the public nationwide.

However, that doesn't change the fact that most of the illegal guns in our country are in fact yankee guns, does it now, crackerjack?

Of course, I choose to place the blame squarely where it belongs on these particular gun deaths: On the drug dealers. And on their customers, who make it so lucrative a business -- because if there weren't millions to be made, these creeps wouldn't be murdering each other and whomever else is unlucky enough to be in the crossfire.

That is one of the bigger arguments for legalizing pot, and in my opnion, if you yankees weren't set to fuck us up that ass if we did, we would have done it sometime in the eighties.

Sure, the dealers pull the trigger, the bangers pull the trigger, I know that.

But giving them weapons to do so isn't helping any.

However, that doesn't change the fact that most of the illegal guns in our country are in fact yankee guns, does it now?

What difference does it make who made them? If memory serves, most of the guns used by the IRA were Soviet designs. So why doesn't the UK start haranging the Russians for the trouble that they've caused?

I've got a question for you: who makes most of the guns used by your police and military?

That is one of the bigger arguments for legalizing pot, and in my opnion, if you yankees weren't set to fuck us up that ass if we did, we would have done it sometime in the eighties.

Sure, the dealers pull the trigger, the bangers pull the trigger, I know that.

But giving them weapons to do so isn't helping any.

You would prefer that they have their gang wars with knives?

Shouldn't you be talking to your own border patrol then instead of us Yanks?

That's what we've said when you guys complained out the weed going into your border, and then you guys berrated us as though we were to blame.

And also, we are in constant threat of cripling border closures if we ever legalize, despite the fact that under this logic, you guys would be responsible for our drug runners trying to tap your market.

So.......

You would prefer that they have their gang wars with knives?


Listen, like I've said, if there going to kill each other, they'll kill each other.

I've seen it done with guns, I've seen it done with shafts, cricket bats, steel pipes, machetes, you name it. Yes, they will still kill each other.

But giving them guns is not helping any.

So, yes.


That's just like if someone was selling nuclear weapons to fanatical doomsday cults, and when confronted about it, said "Would you rather they shoot people?"

What difference does it make who made them? If memory serves, most of the guns used by the IRA were Soviet designs. So why doesn't the UK start haranging the Russians for the trouble that they've caused?

I've got a question for you: who makes most of the guns used by your police and military?

Let me see. United States of America.... Pluse Isareal, England, Germany, France, Russian Federation, Sweden........

What's your point, anyway?

Were not talking about who INVENTED the guns. Your right, what are we going to do about the inventors? It's not there fault, getting after them won't solve anything.

The problem is THE DEALERS(of the weapons).

That's why MI5 goes after THE DEALERS.

Mossad goes after the Egyptian DEALERS.


United States is worried about nuclear weapons DEALERS.

C'mon now, your using faulty logic.

As a fellow Canadian: Amen, brother.

How come that Americans are complaining that Canada-US relations are strained?

We just have lenient pot laws, a domestic thing, while they screw us on a signed trade agreement aka Softwood lumber and Beef Exports.

Why are they complaining?

Their problem is that their idea of getting along is us doing whatever the hell they tell us to do. Well, we're not as stupid as them. We don't start wars that cost hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives without provocation, against a backwards nation that Americans only hate because the government lied to the people. Not to mention we don't build astronomically expensive defense systems in space that have practically no chance working or being needed. So unless Americans can gain a lot of intelligence or find out what real diplomacy and patnership is, Canada-US relations are going to be straing for a LONG time.

I've got a question for you: who makes most of the guns used by your police and military?


That would be a company called Glock; from Austria, which I believe supplies most of the guns used for American police as well.

See, it's Mexicans bringing guns into Mexico, so that they can fight over the American market. Some situation.

You lose, crackerjack.
Please rewrite that in English, popcorn.

That would be a company called Glock; from Austria, which I believe supplies most of the guns used for American police as well.

Most pistols sold today to law enforcement in the US are made by European companies.

Beretta, SIG, Glock...

The American companies have a minor share in the market.

Most semiautomatic handguns sold to US citizens are also made by European companies.

Please rewrite that in English, popcorn.


It's really not my fault if you cannot read, whitey.

It's really not my fault if you cannot read, whitey.

If they weren't smuggled in from the US, they would be smuggled in from Europe, where most centerfire caliber handguns are made.

Wow, I thought Glock was Isareali.

Shows how much I know.

But yes, there right. The better guns (or the ones they use, at least) come from Europe.

The generic weapons on the American free market, are what one might call, cheap, hence the title.

Although, there inherent cheapness does not stop them from killing with deadly efficency (SIC)

(SIC meaning Sans Intentions Comique, or without comic intention.)

Wow, I thought Glock was Isareali.

Shows how much I know.

But yes, there right. The better guns (or the ones they use, at least) come from Europe.

The generic weapons on the American free market, are what one might call, cheap, hence the title.

Although, there inherent cheapness does not stop them from killing with deadly efficency (SIC)

The cheaper guns are made primarily in four places:

1. California (they make the Raven, which is crap)
2. Italy (they make everything from fine weapons to cheap crap, including every cheap ass Tanfoglio and FIE pistol)
3. Hungary (same - they make good and bad stuff (they make a cheap knockoff of the Browning HiPower))
4. Russia (mountains and mountains of Makarovs)

Although Israel makes handguns, they sell very few here in the US.

If they weren't smuggled in from the US, they would be smuggled in from Europe, where most centerfire caliber handguns are made.


Europe is across the Ocean, and most European countries have similar if not more restrictive gun laws. Many French, Italian, English crime organizations, in fact smuggle guns in from elseware.

I find it very hard to belive that some groups would try to tap a market across the ocean, if

A) They actually had to make the guns themselves, rather than get them from a factory or store in a legal manner
B) This could get them into alot of trouble as it is illegal, unlike in the states
C) The must get on a boat and go across the ocean to sell them
D) There is a local market for this product.

Think of it from the smuglers point of view.

I highly, highly doubt we would be getting guns from Europe.

The only feasable thing I could think of would be American/Canadian smuglers getting through in the wilderness, with great difficulty, or guns from the Philipines and Vietnam going to Vancouver, which still leaves the rest of the country relativly safe from gunshots.

Although Israel makes handguns, they sell very few here in the US.

No, the Isaerali ones are mostly just sold to the police and army, I should think.

I'll let you in on a little secret.

Since 1934, it has been illegal to own an unregistered fully automatic weapon in the United States. Same for a silencer.

It requires an extreme background check, a 200 dollar tax per item, and permission from your local law enforcement chief.

There are over 100,000 items registered - silencers and machineguns.

None of these have ever been used in the commission of a crime. Ever.

So, when you hear about a machinegun or a silencer being used in a crime, where do they come from?

Where, for example, does a person get an MP5 submachinegun that is used in a crime?

The guns are made in Europe (the best ones). They are exported to many countries overseas - through end user certificates. Even a lot of US weapons are sold overseas like this - M-16, etc. The Soviet weapons are common as well - the Skorpion pistol, and the fashionable version of the AKSU.

Then they are smuggled wherever people want them. Because they are usually smuggled by the same people who smuggle drugs, they are often given as gifts.

If someone has 40 million in cocaine in their plane, they can throw in a couple of machineguns worth 1000 a piece in with the shipment as a gift.

If you live in a country where people can smuggle in drugs, and where the country's law enforcement cannot force the price of drugs higher (by restricting the market), you live in a country where someone can bring in a forbidden weapon.

ALL of the crimes committed with silencers and fully automatic machineguns in the US have been done with either homemade or smuggled weapons - mostly smuggled.

You can pass all the laws you want - if you are unable to enforce them, you need to try something else.

That's nice. Great. Glad to hear it.Your quite right. What you say is true. To argue against it would be foolish, as I know it too be true, and so I won't argue against what you said. I say again, it is the truth. But here. I'll let you in on a little secret too.

Nobody exports drugs into Canada. The only, only thing close to people importing drugs here is people in Vancouver and Halifax who import chemicals to make ectasy (exctasy? I don't spell very well.) That ectasy is sold to local middleclass white kids, stupidass ravers. The rest, we make here.

And we don't use areplanes for our drugs. We are not garguantuan drug barons who have power on a federal level. We don't have that. We have poor people, who own rusted out 1987 lowriders. We drive across the border and sell you drugs. Not in planes, not in boats, in Voexwagon beetles and family minivans.

And consequently, we don't toss a couple of cheap soviet machineguns into our airplanes.

Secondly, these are not guerrilas or militant political activists. We are drug dealers. Even if we could get a European machingun, why the hell would we want it? What possible use would we have for it?

The demand is for things that we could actually, and do actually use. Those things are the generic nine millimetre handgun.

We buy cheap revolvers and nines, because that's all we need.

How often have you heard of a driveby beeing done with a top notch German machinegun? It doesn't happen. We cannot, cannot afford and do not buy, or even attempt to buy that kind of weaponry. Were not fighting a war here. We don't try to get silencers either, for that matter.

The issue here, my friend, is the cheap American handguns.

I mean, really, think about it. Say your a banger.Even if you have the chance to buy it and can afford it, are you going to walk around the street with a fully automatic Soviet rifle around your shoulder? Think about it. What would you pack?

And sure, dealers do buy guns like that, but, mostly, my friend, in the United States. Up here, that is extremly rare, even more so with the people were talking about.

You can pass all the laws you want - if you are unable to enforce them, you need to try something else.

Alright.So, once we legalize weed, abolishing a number of laws and restrictions, or as you put it "trying something else" Then it's the responsibility of the United States to make sure that the thousands of opportunists who try to bring our cigarrete priced weed into the states for a fat profit don't get in. Fair enough.

Then why won't you let us do it?

There you go.

Alright.So, once we legalize weed, abolishing a number of laws and restrictions, or as you put it "trying something else" Then it's the responsibility of the United States to make sure that the thousands of opportunists who try to bring our cigarrete priced weed into the states for a fat profit don't get in. Fair enough.

Then why won't you let us do it?

There you go.

I'm the one on this forum known for wanting drugs legalized, if you haven't noticed.

Stop the war on drugs, subsidize drugs for the indolent, and most violent crime in the US would stop.

Weed never killed anyone. How many people have been killed in the War on Drugs?

Getting a bit off topic here, I remember you mentioning the "Millions of Americans who defend themselves." Presumably with there private arsenal's, am I right?

Well, a few points to ponder.

Alot of guns in the hands of the guy's who rob seven elevens and houses, who take your money on the street at gunpoint(not to mention the thousands upon thousands of bangers killing each other), have stole this gun from a home, or bought it from a likewise person,and then proceed to rob other homes, but now, at gunpoint. Safer, is it not?

And what "Millions of Americans who defend themselves". You mean to tell me there are millions of attacks a year wich are thrwarted by citzens with rifles? Wow. It completly passed in front of me. I had no idea.

But then, why are not America's morgues and hospitals overflowing with these would be attackers? Hmmmmm.


And say you do have a gun and someone wants you dead.

And now, I have seen this before, believe you me, I know.

You have your gun in your waistband. Your standing in line at the grocery check out. For whatever reason, some guy wants you dead. Guy walks up to you, takes his guns, puts a slug in your head.

How does your gun help you in the situation, I wonder? It doesn't. I've seen it happen (it being a gun not helping someone.) If someone wants you dead, well, your gun, in a north american society, is unlikely to help. Hell, the guy might stab you instead.

And if at the odd chance, you do get into a gunfight with this guy at the groccery checkout (by some stroke of luck you are not killed) then who is more likely to get hurt? Him and you, are the people who were just trying to get grocceries who happen to be in your way?

I'm the one on this forum known for wanting drugs legalized, if you haven't noticed.

Stop the war on drugs, subsidize drugs for the indolent, and most violent crime in the US would stop.

Weed never killed anyone. How many people have been killed in the War on Drugs?


There you go. Your goverment is causing problems for everyone.

No, I have not noticed your stance. I'm afraid I do not really try to keep tabs on you.

And so, you agree that, be interfering in Canadian domestic policy, your goverment is causing us and themselves problems. THat's a start.

I do not know what the war on drugs is, althoug I presume it to be some sort of nationwide crackdown, essentially, the maintenance of the same laws.

I must disagree, however, with a few things. To legalize all drugs would be a great folly.

Your country is run by profit hungry coarperations. The corperations would not let legal alternatives to alchohol become available without the gurrantee that they could market them.

And market them they would. At children, and adults, at the sick, the depressed, everyone.

You have heartless, insane entities with billions of dollars worth of resources marketing highly addictive and highly destructive drugs.

That would not be a good thing.

And weed is not in fact healthy. You can't argue that, my friend.

And criminals would find other means of income, most likely, like before, highly profitable and illegal, and again creating a highly competitive high stakes market (i.e. extortion, protection)

That will again create violence. Take the guns out of the equation, it makes it all the better.

And I still don't see that many americans succefully defending themselves with guns, here.

I believe in personal freedom, and I have faith in the power of human stupidity. In fact, I count on it.

The drugs may not be good for some people, but I feel that's up to them.

I'm not big on railings at cliffs at the national park, either. Not big on warning signs, or annoying park rangers who shoo you away from the cliff.

Corporations sell tobacco and alcohol.

Yes, yes they do. And it has caused a nationwide epidemic. (I.e. the millions upon millions of hopelessly addicted alchoholics, who often commit crime to feed there habits, end up in jail, commit violent crime, abuse people who depend on them, such as children and spouses, and overhall are a drain on society, and the millions of tabaco users who die early, draining the workforce of skilled people, and who corrupt young bodies, and who fill the nations hospitals, and who even sometimes commit crime to feed there addictions, or have others do it so that they can sell the overtaxed items for less, all very much the same as most users of illegal drugs, all of whom ((illegal drug users, alchohol users and tobaco users)) send money right back into the hands of people who will either let it pool in the bank account or use it to expand there sales and or market.)

[QUOTE=Whispering Legs]

The drugs may not be good for some people, but I feel that's up to them.

QUOTE]

Sure, it's up to them. But they already know it's bad for them, and if it were legalized, it would plague the entire country, at the same time becoming socialbly acceptable, causing more chronic epidemics.

Also, these coarperations TRY VERY VERY HARD and use MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to have people suck down there shit, to make it cool and social staples, and so they are undermining personal choice.

My point is that for any given risk (drugs, tobacco, guns, alcohol), there are a certain number of people who will be stupid, no matter how many laws you pass, or how hard you try to hold their hand.

Stop holding their hands. Most of us are not stupid, and the sooner we are rid of the stupid people, the happier we'll all be.

Best place I ever visited was a cliff on the Irish coast. 600 ft drop, no railing, no warning sign, no park rangers. Here in the US, that would be a "dangerous place". In Ireland, it was just beautiful.

I'm sure people fall off there all the time, but at least the Irish are rid of them.

What a terrible thing to say.

Do you want all the stupid people in the world to die? There would be near no one left!

I have many stupid friends, and a beloved uncle who is stupid. People do not know what is best for them, and the natural solution is to force them to do what is best for them (within reason, at least.)

People need to have there hand held, to be protected, just as the mother helps and protects her young child, keeps him from being crushed by a train, a goverment must do the same for it's people.

And what is the definition of stupid? You could say a drug dealer is stupid, because he has comprimised morales and is in a dangerous bussiness. But perhaps the money is worth it to him.

You could say drug users are stupid, but you forget that such people as Paul Erdos, that famous american poet guy, that russian president, (I'm sorry, the names are slipping out of my head.) were in fact drug users, amoung countless other people who were considered geniuses.

You cannot classify a person based on one decision in there life.


By the way, were did you find that results for the "Political Compass" thing? In a book? It sounds interesting.

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/

take the test

Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.23

I'm afraid I don't quite understand it, though.

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/questionnaire.php